Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

They were deleted off of the Crisis thread, but the Arrow related spoilers for part one are

Thank you!!

[tv echo]

'Arrow' star Katherine McNamara says that filming the 'Crisis' crossover event was 'utter mayhem' and it'll be emotionally 'exhausting' for fans
Olivia Singh Dec 6, 2019
https://www.insider.com/arrowverse-katherine-mcnamara-crisis-crossover-interview-2019-12 

Quote

"I think Oliver has finally accepted his fate, or his potential fate, as it were, whereas Mia now understands why he made the choices he made when she was a baby and understands that he didn't take them lightly and he did it quite painfully, but in order to serve the greater good," the actress said.

"She now has a healthy respect for that, but she's not going to let him go without a fight," McNamara continued. "And that's kind of what we see Mia dealing with during the 'Crisis,' is fighting against the impending destiny that may or may not be able to be stopped."
*  *  *
When the final hour of "Crisis" airs on The CW on Tuesday, January 14 at 9 p.m., there will be two more episodes of "Arrow" before the show concludes. McNamara said that "the crossover changes everything" and sets the stage for a potential spin-off starring her character and the Canaries, played by Katie Cassidy Rodgers (Laurel Lance) and Juliana Harkavy (Dinah Drake).

"It changes the multiverse irreversibly and that is the catalyst for the backdoor pilot and for the conclusion of the series," McNamara said.

"So really, episode seven that we just saw is the last episode of 'Arrow' to exist in its original form and from this point forward, all bets are off and the rules are forever changed. Don't count on anything, expect the unexpected, and be ready for a crazy ride."

Edited December 8, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

(source)

[tv echo]

Edited December 8, 2019 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

I know it appears that she doesnt wear a mask in 8x09 or 8x10....but I hope she gets a mask.

[Josh371982]

4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I know it appears that she doesnt wear a mask in 8x09 or 8x10....but I hope she gets a mask.

She really should otherwise it's like shes Green Canary AKA dressed like Sara but with a Green Outfit and no hood and Mask

[tv echo]

Here's what I now think will happen to Oliver ultimately (by the end of Arrow)...

As we know, SA did not film 809, but he did film 808 and 810.

During the Crisis, the Monitor brings Oliver back to life because he needs Oliver to perform a specific role and die a specific way in order to defeat the Anti-Monitor (much like Doctor Strange had to keep Tony Stark alive, even if it meant giving up the Time Stone, because he foresaw Tony's role in the only future to defeat Thanos). So Oliver dies again in Crisis, exactly as foreseen by the Monitor.

However, because Oliver dies twice when he should've only died once, that upsets the balance of the cosmos. Therefore, in order to maintain the cosmic balance,* the Monitor gives Oliver a new life of sorts, but it can't be as part of the Arrowverse anymore.

(* The Monitor (to Oliver): "The universe is a complex piece of machinery, and balance must be maintained. One change requires another. How would you propose I keep the balance?" - from Supergirl 409-Elseworlds, Part 3 and Arrow 722-You Have Saved This City)

There's also these SA comments...

Quote

-- About the COIE crossover, SA: "The only thing that I can tease is that there are no rules. And I'm playing two characters... I saw that character's costume today. It was great... No, I didn't try it on. I saw concept art for something that I'm going to be doing in the crossover." ET's Leanne Aguilera: "Is it a character that we know?" SA: "Nope. Never appeared on screen before." (TCA Summer 2019 Press Tour, Aug 4, 2019: Aug. 6, 2019 Entertainment Tonight video of SA interview, page 26 of Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019 thread in LoT forum, and page 3 of Spoilers thread and page 11 of Spoiler Discussion Final thread in Arrow forum)

-- On the ending for his character, SA: "It's what I want. I pitched it for a very long time. It's what I want, but, concurrently, like, that doesn't mean there aren't surprises along the way. I was floored when I got the pitch for the crossover. I don't see it coming. Nobody sees it coming. Um, it's going to be so rad." (TCA Summer 2019 Press Tour, Aug. 4, 2019: Aug. 20, 2019 TV Guide tweet & video of SA interview, page 13 of Spoiler Discussion Final thread in Arrow forum)

-- During an interview with ComicBook.com, they asked SA to address an old theory we came up with, namely, that Oliver Queen would not die in the Crisis but would be removed to a pocket Universe with Felicity. Asked whether he would prefer death, or a fake-out death like that, SA teased, "I have a third idea, but I can't tell you what it is." (Oct. 14, 2019 ComicBook article, page 36 of Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019 thread in LoT forum)

But Star City 2046's Old Oliver has appeared on screen before, so SA must be playing yet another character in Crisis. The only thing that confuses me is that he says he's playing two characters. If Earth-16 Oliver is considered the second character, then that blows out that theory. So arguably, maybe he considers the two characters to be Green Arrow and Not Green Arrow?

So I speculate that, in 808, Oliver is in some kind of cosmic purgatory (that looks like Lian Yu) where the Monitor gives him some type of choice, which is left as a cliffhanger when the crossover ends. Then in 810, Oliver makes his choice and we see his ultimate fate. 

Bottom line: I think Oliver becomes "something else" and, hopefully, reunites with Felicity in 810.

Edited December 9, 2019 by tv echo

[Trisha]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

Here's what I now think will happen to Oliver ultimately (by the end of Arrow)...

I love this theory and have been leaning towards something like this too. Because of the photos we've seen of episodes still to come, we know Oliver *in some form* will still exist -- and possibly die again. Because of SA's weirdly worded tweet when shooting the crossover I still think the Monitor will turn him into Spectre (who helps defeat Anti-Monitor in the comics but needs a human host). If that does happen, my question is if he remains the Spectre until 810 or if the "real" Oliver comes back into his body at the end of the crossover and someone else takes on the Spectre mantel (which might explain the images of him hugging Mia on the island, Constantine's presence, and another actor cast as Spectre).

Whatever the "someone else, something else" that Oliver is going to become, I just hope that at the end of 810 he returns to the Oliver we've always known. As much as I could see the show think Oliver ascending to some magical being/god status would be a reward for his years of sacrifice, as a viewer I'd much prefer to see the man we've followed all this time retain his humanity, reunite with his wife, and get some semblance of a normal life. 

[Chris24601]

I've discussed it on another of the Crisis spoiler threads, but I think there's a very good chance that what Oliver will become is The Spectre (i.e. God's Spirit of Vengeance).

In the comics, the Spectre requires a recently deceased mortal of strong will and with a desire for justice to bond with. The Spectre is also the one who, in Crisis fought the Anti-Monitor at the beginning of time and merged and re-booted the universe so it could survive the antimatter wave.

In one of the DC Comics many crossovers the previous vessel for the Spectre's power had moved on and so God's Vengeance was running loose without a strong-willed mortal soul to give it mercy and temper it to justice. So some of the heroes went to the afterlife and ultimately found Hal Jordan (who had died in the previous crossover event by re-starting the sun) in Purgatory (because he had not yet made peace with himself) to become the new Spectre.

We've seen shots of Oliver and Mia on Lian Yu that haven't happened yet so my hunch is that Lian Yu is how Oliver's soul understands Purgatory and Mia and Diggle (probably with the help of Constantine) go to Purgatory and convince Ollie to become the Spectre, who then comes in and saves the day in the final part of the crossover (with the Legends taking him back to the dawn of time to fight the Anti-Monitor and re-boot the universe in the final part).

Finally, throw in that the comic-version of The Spectre's most prominent costume piece is a green hood (and Ollie becoming him would be a reason for him to have it, when an aspect of God has no reason to have any costume at all).

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Destiny foreshadowing for Felicity and Diggle?...

This Newsweek article is speculating that maybe Felicity will be named the Paragon of Wisdom later on in the crossover.

The Monitor: "I enlisted the assistance of Felicity Smoak, who earned the wisdom of a second book... The Tome of the Guardians."

This CBR article is speculating that maybe the Tome of the Guardians is a reference to the Green Lanterns' Guardians of the Universe.

Edited December 10, 2019 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I doubt Felicity or Diggle will be named paragons.

Apart from Sara, Kate, Kara and whichever earth's Clark that is, the others will likely be Oliver (as Green Arrow or Spectre or whoever he winds up being), a Flash (Barry or Jay Garrick) and either Jefferson Pierce or the new Atom.

 

[tv echo]

Katherine McNamara on 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' and Taking Over the Green Arrow Mantle (Exclusive)
By Meredith B. Kile‍ 6:00 AM PST, December 10, 2019
https://www.etonline.com/katherine-mcnamara-on-crisis-on-infinite-earths-and-taking-over-the-green-arrow-mantle-exclusive 

Quote

"That's the crux of Mia's growth in this entire season is that, you know, she's had this massive loss, this hole in her life in the entire time she's been alive. She hasn't known her father and she's been kind of yearning for that connection," McNamara explained to ET during a phone interview last week. "And then obviously, when she was confronted with it, it was a very, a much more difficult journey than I think either of them expected, coming to terms with all of the abandonment and loss and things that she had been harboring and trying to push aside, forcing them to come to the surface when he's standing right there in front of her."

"Once that's finally been reconciled and she understands him so much more and has come to terms with opening up that connection, that relationship and that love is there that they've both found for each other, that they've been yearning for their entire lives, it's all just kind of taken away in an instant -- and far too soon. And coming to terms with that is one of the most difficult things that Mia has ever had to do. It definitely changes her, for better or for worse. It changes her path forever."

A recurring theme throughout Arrow's eight-season run as The CW's flagship superhero show is the concept of legacy, and Oliver -- foreseeing his own demise as The Monitor prophesied -- made certain of his before he died, passing down the Green Arrow mantle to his daughter, despite her insistence that only he should wear the signature hood.

"I think it's really overwhelming for her," McNamara noted. "She's certainly never thought of herself as a hero or being worthy of taking on that mantle, given her checkered past and her relationship with the vigilantes, and with this team... Creating that element of that redemption story that he has, she sort of mirrors that in a way."

"And it's something that she understands, you know, much in the same way that, in enjoying the show, I understand the legacy that Steven and/or Oliver had built... It becomes a really interesting turn in the character, and having someone so different and yet so similar take on this mantle."
*  *  *
"Now suddenly she's on a spaceship with people with superpowers, and aliens, and dealing with all of these other things," McNamara previewed. "Suddenly being surrounded by strangers -- people that know her, but she doesn't know them -- in one of the most traumatic times of her life, it really kind of puts her out of her element once again, and forces her to grow in a big way."

[insomniadreams88]

According to my Googling, Spectre is immortal? So until told otherwise, I’m going to assume that this means Oliver and Felicity will get eternity together to make up for those 20 years apart if that doesn’t change?

[Chaser]

I don’t know how it’s going to work but I think the final scene is going to be a flip of 7x22. Olicity reunite, Felicity is young again. Oliver says he’s been waiting 20 years to show her the Universe. 

[apinknightmare]

It would've been helpful to know what actually happened to Jim Corrigan once he passed the torch on to Oliver. Does he get to go back to his life or what? Like, could Oliver take on this mantle, somehow go back to this place in time with someone else and even though he technically served for a long time he passes it on to someone else and is able to return to Felicity now? 

(shhhhhh let me have it)

[lemotomato]

47 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I don’t know how it’s going to work but I think the final scene is going to be a flip of 7x22. Olicity reunite, Felicity is young again. Oliver says he’s been waiting 20 years to show her the Universe. 

Not a bad way to spend her retirement for someone who wanted to go to space camp as a kid.

[Featherhat]

That would definitely work for me. It would kind of fit with the "you can never go back" stuff in 7x22neven though that timeline is out of the window now. them becoming an immortal cosmic couple works definitely with the heavy handed "become something else!", and works if the need SA cameos in the future. Him giving those powers up and retiring to a pocket paradise dimension in 8x10 could also work. With the statue and funeral in 9 and 10 it wouldn't surprise me if there's another sacrifice of Oliver's they're honouring as well though, not just the current one.

With the last scene clapboard decorations being "love saved the city" it seems likely there's a cosmic reunion or something in place ala 7x22, it's just a question of how. I know COIE has a million things it's trying to do but Oliver's actual story hasn't had much screentime at all so far, despite everything that's happened so even though there's two whole episodes to go it will be up to 8x10 wrap up a lot.

I've seen speculation that Felicity and E16!Oliver (aka grumpy Old man Star City 2046 Oliver) get together once Earths are poofed back into existence as they're both alone leaving Oliver free to be a god but that most definitely wouldn't work for me because Doppelgangers are not the same! I don't think it's very likely though. 

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I've seen speculation that Felicity and E16!Oliver (aka grumpy Old man Star City 2046 Oliver) get together once Earths are poofed back into existence as they're both alone leaving Oliver free to be a god but that most definitely wouldn't work for me because Doppelgangers are not the same! I don't think it's very likely though. 

This would absolutely not work for me either, but the idea of them taking something that happened to comics GA/BC and giving it to Olicity makes me cackle. (In the comics, BC has a baby with GA, but he dies, and she ends up with a GA from another Earth who lost his BC.)

[tv echo]

So the cover with Felicity prominently featured is on at least one of the tie-in comics covers? ...

Edited December 11, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Stephen Amell Teases the “Action Sequence to End All Action Sequences” in the ‘Arrow’ Finale [VIDEO]
BY VINNIE MANCUSO      DECEMBER 10, 2019
https://collider.com/arrow-finale-details-stephen-amell/ 

Quote

While stopping by Collider studios with cousin/collaborator Robbie Amell to discuss their first feature film together, Code 8, the Arrow star told us about the “action sequence to end all action sequences” that will play out in the show’s last episode.

Transcribed from video:

-- On what we can expect from the series finale of Arrow, SA: "Um, well, I watched the series finale last night. Um, it's, uh... the scene that the series finale opens with is - I can't wait for people to see it so I can talk about how it came to be. But, uh, it literally makes your head go 'poof' (makes exploding head gesture with hand) ... like that." Also SA: "That I can tell you about the series finale is that we wanted to do a big - it's like, okay, it’s our last kick at the can. Um, let's do the - let's do the action sequence to end all action sequences for Arrow. And the coolest thing is that, I want to say, every stunt guy, more or less that has ever worked on the show, even guys that are now retired or coordinating on Supergirl or Flash, um, or Legends, um, everybody came out. And everybody sold out in terms of selling what was happening. Um, it was - it's a sequence that, I showed it to Robbie, and he’s like ‘That was incredible!’ I’m like, ‘That was the first third of it, keep watching.’ And it just goes - it's - it's, um, it's a little superfluous, It's a little like - you know, it's a little theatrical, just in terms of the amount of people that I murder. It’s what the fans deserved.”

Edited December 11, 2019 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

17 minutes ago, tv echo said:

And it just goes - it's - it's, um, it's a little superfluous, It's a little like - you know, it's a little theatrical, just in terms of the amount of people that I murder. It’s what the fans deserved.”

Oh cool - after watching his redemption story for eight years, that's exactly what I want!

[tv echo]

I hope the two tragedies she's referring to are Zoe's death and Oliver's death, and not Oliver's death and someone else's death that we haven't seen yet...

Keeping it in the Family: Arrow's Kat McNamara Talks "Crisis" and More
Tim Beedle   Dec. 9, 2019
https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/12/09/keeping-it-in-the-family-arrows-kat-mcnamara-talks-crisis-and-more 

Quote

I had a feeling that people would have very strong opinions about Mia, and I was hoping that they would be positive ones. But I also knew that they've developed her in a really wonderful way to where no matter how you feel about her at first, you can't help but have some compassion for her because you really see the the pain, struggle and conflict that she's going through in trying to reconcile these emotions that she's had and defenses that she's had to put up to just survive. Now, the biggest vulnerability of her life is now standing right in front of her, one of her biggest moments of tragedy. Then later on, he will be the catalyst for the next biggest tragedy in her life and the next big transformation and steps she has to take. It's just event after event and obstacle after obstacle, but that serves the legacy of what it is to be a Queen and what it is to be a hero. It really does prepare her to take on her father's legacy in a way.
*  *  *
... It gives you something to play with because Mia’s constantly learning and constantly figuring out the world and what to do next. She's a strategist, like her mother. That's where the Felicity comes in. She's a strategist and a warrior and getting to blend the two of those things together has been such a joy.

Edited December 11, 2019 by tv echo

[shantown]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

it's, um, it's a little superfluous, It's a little like - you know, it's a little theatrical, just in terms of the amount of people that I murder. It’s what the fans deserved.”

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Oh cool - after watching his redemption story for eight years, that's exactly what I want!

It's times like this I wish there was an eye-rolling reaction. I know that just by being involved on a message board we're a little more than just the "general audience" but that seems a little off-base from what I imagine even a causal fan wants from the show.

[Chris24601]

13 hours ago, Featherhat said:

That would definitely work for me. It would kind of fit with the "you can never go back" stuff in 7x22 even though that timeline is out of the window now.

I'm still not entirely convinced the season seven timeline is out the window. Part Three of Crisis ended with Earth-1 (and every other Earth) annihilated. The ONLY way forward is to essentially re-boot or otherwise undo that destruction and that means potentially undoing other things to the point that the future still turns out like we saw in season seven (primarily, all memory of Mia, William and Connor visiting the past... Wilson Jr. was noted to have escaped from prison multiple times in the original timeline so whether his capture this time fully stops the existence of the Deathstroke gang in 2040 is presently a mystery).

I know, I know... pink room, no tattoos. Thing is... we also know neither Oliver nor Felicity are in the backdoor pilot and I don't see how they explain Felicity deciding to go off and leave Mia and William behind forever without the "need to go away because I'll always be hunted and a danger to them if I stay" that the end of season seven set up.

I mean, the lack of tattoos could also be as simple as tattoo removal being even easier in 2040 than it is now and after Mia has come to understand her parents better, she no longer felt the need for that act of rebellion. Alternately, its not like production gaffs have never happened before.

It just seems odd that they'd completely throw out a season and a half of build-up and the lovely exposition tool of two virtual stranger siblings (one of the advantages of Ollie's five years away was that characters had to explain to him why something is different than he remembered it, thus also explaining it to the audience) and the meaning behind getting her costume directly from her dad and start over with the actors essentially playing characters as different from the versions we've seen as E2 Laurel is from E1 Laurel.

There's just a metric ton that doesn't add up about the setup of this spin-off right now and it probably won't entirely make sense until we see how Crisis ends up.

I'll admit too that even though MG said the real title of 8x08 should be "Living In the Future" I'm not entirely convinced it won't end up being set in 2020 with Mia, William and Connor trying to make a new future with Dinah and Laurel's help just because of the logistics of having one show set twenty years in the future of all the other still-running shows.

Maybe if Flash were also ending and Earth-38 was returned in whole so Supergirl continues to run on a separate timeline the 2040 thing would be fine (Batwoman would be the only remaining Earth-1 series still set exclusively in 2020), but with probably at least another season or two of the Flash and Earth-38 (and Black Lightning's Earth) probably being merged into Earth-1 that would put the bulk of the Arrowverse still set in 2020 with Green Arrow having 20 years of future knowledge on the rest of them whenever they show up for a crossover.

Keeping Mia, William and Connor in 2020 as temporally displaced heroes trying to prevent a dystopian future means no such complexity and means there's no additional weirdness involving the two Canary actresses and possible old-age makeup or why they'd be left in the future instead getting a lift back to 2020 from the Legends.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

I'll admit too that even though MG said the real title of 8x08 should be "Living In the Future" I'm not entirely convinced it won't end up being set in 2020 with Mia, William and Connor trying to make a new future with Dinah and Laurel's help just because of the logistics of having one show set twenty years in the future of all the other still-running shows.

He flat-out said that the spin-off is taking place in the future. 

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

He flat-out said that the spin-off is taking place in the future. 

I'm aware... and if it were JUST FTA and it looked like more of the present day material was wrapping up I wouldn't even be questioning it... but with the odds being good that Flash will run at least two more seasons and that Supergirl and Black Lightning will probably end up part of a merged Earth post-Crisis and have some more seasons in them, plus Batwoman just getting off the ground... it just adds up to some weirdness.

Likewise, if they aren't adding two decades to DD and LL via makeup (or say they got really good plastic surgeons) then something in the whole premise for the spin-off is going to end up being needlessly convoluted with time-travel shenanigans that dilute the impact of the first true legacy series in the franchise.

I'm also of the firm opinion that if you can't summarize one of the Arrowverse shows with an "Arrowverse Open" they're not going to appeal to new audiences and throwing in some time-travelling Canaries from the past makes that trickier (we're talking All New X-Men levels of convolution).

Crossovers down the line would make it even more convoluted unless they're committed to making them all happen in 2040 from now on so FTA can't just look in a history book and tell everyone else what they have to do to end the problem since they obviously did or 2040 wouldn't still be here. Heck, even just them being in 2040 means you can't credibly have world-ending stakes in 2020 anymore because 2040 Earth is still around.

In fact, it means that, unless they move it to its own Earth somehow, none of the other series set in 2020 can do ANYTHING to disrupt the timeline GA&tC establishes (i.e. if a character is revealed to be alive on the show, they can't be killed off in 2020).

Basically, a 2040 setting with the Canaries from the past in tow just feels like its borrowing problems the Arrowverse doesn't need. So while I know its going to be set in 2040... part of me just wonders if that isn't a smokescreen to some extent and there's actually something else going on.

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Crossovers down the line would make it even more convoluted unless they're committed to making them all happen in 2040 from now on so FTA can't just look in a history book and tell everyone else what they have to do to end the problem since they obviously did or 2040 wouldn't still be here. Heck, even just them being in 2040 means you can't credibly have world-ending stakes in 2020 anymore because 2040 Earth is still around.

In fact, it means that, unless they move it to its own Earth somehow, none of the other series set in 2020 can do ANYTHING to disrupt the timeline GA&tC establishes (i.e. if a character is revealed to be alive on the show, they can't be killed off in 2020).

Basically, a 2040 setting with the Canaries from the past in tow just feels like its borrowing problems the Arrowverse doesn't need. So while I know its going to be set in 2040... part of me just wonders if that isn't a smokescreen to some extent and there's actually something else going on.

This might need to move to the GA&C thread, but I would sooner go with they don't intend to crossover or have a story reason to bring just Mia (maybe others) back to the present before saying that MG is actually lying about it in 2040. The casts and crews have come out and said what a nightmare it is to film these crossovers so much so that MG begged the CW for them to skip a year to which the CW instead allowed them to do a majorly streamlined one and cutting out an entire show. This year's one is even made very slightly easier thanks to the massive casts they share along with the cameos (but was still probably super stressful for the leads along with TH, ET, KM, LMG, etc.)

Going into the 2020-2021 tv season, the CW will have (assuming all of the shows are continuing, and are all airing to some degree near each other enough to be in production at the same time) eight technically Arrowverse shows to crossover (Flash, Supergirl, Batwoman, LoT, Black Lightning, Stargirl. Superman & Lois, and GA&C), and there is no way they are crossing them all over. There they can cut some narratively easy ones to cut (Black Lightning, LoT, Stargirl, and GA&C) and bam, closer to that 3-4 number that is already aggravating but doable for them.

No idea what might be happening for Dinah and BS for 809 since they didn't seem to film with old makeup, but having 5 characters who are from 2040 to be in 2020 instead I think is too big a reach.

[Featherhat]

15 hours ago, lemotomato said:

This would absolutely not work for me either, but the idea of them taking something that happened to comics GA/BC and giving it to Olicity makes me cackle. (In the comics, BC has a baby with GA, but he dies, and she ends up with a GA from another Earth who lost his BC.)

Heh. I think I did know it was a GA/BC storyline but I'd forgotten about it. The only reason I'm considering it happen is because it would be an "Oliver dies in the first hour thing, gotcha!" Instead "you all thought they were going to bittersweetly reunite in 20 years, hah!" thing. Although I think it would be an absolute waste of bringing EBR back. And it was just fan speculation anyway. 

Re SA being delighted Oliver or "Oliver" is killing so many people, he might not be in his right mind or it's a dream or flashback? It would be a very weird choice to walk back 8 years of character development in the finale when there's so many other loose ends to tie up. And if he's The Spectre or otherwise "dead, missing or ascended seems a weird thing to do.

I believe MG when he says the spin off is set in 2040, there was also things from filming that pointed to it. If they want this crew in any further crossovers then there are lots of timey wimey ways to do it and technically the Legends could just ask Gideon what the historical record says but they never do. The Flash made minimal use of their Gideon for that as well. That said after this year I agree with @way2interested I don't think we're going to see a potentially 7-8 show crossover next year. They aren't having JH and KC in old age make up but it's easier for them to go to the future than central character and her brother/team 20 years in the past. We'll see, it's not easy when LOT has done it (Amaya, Zari) and that's a whole time travel show

Parts of that S7 timeline might still be intact somehow but it's difficult to speculate with so much potential change and a lot of "wiped out of existence" going to be undone in the next two episodes, even The Monitor stuff. And we don't know exactly how long EBR filmed for.

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Re SA being delighted Oliver or "Oliver" is killing so many people, he might not be in his right mind or it's a dream or flashback? It would be a very weird choice to walk back 8 years of character development in the finale when there's so many other loose ends to tie up. And if he's The Spectre or otherwise "dead, missing or ascended seems a weird thing to do.

I think it might be a flashback to S1 because SA filmed in the pre-OTA bunker in his old suit during 8x10.  

[statsgirl]

They probably sat on the writers' room and thought "since we're bringing back everyone, how about we bring back all the stunt people all at one?" and took it from there.

Felicity ending up with an Oliver from another Earth would not be a happy ending for me; it would be Felicity having to settle for someone who looked like her husband but who had none of the shared memories and experiences with her.

16 hours ago, tv echo said:

So the cover with Felicity prominently featured is on at least one of the tie-in comics covers? ...

Are there two Flashes there? Why are there two Flashes instead of one of the dozen other people like Diggle who deserve to be there?

[tv echo]

I don't always like this writer's Arrow reviews, but I thought this article had some interesting speculation about Oliver's ultimate fate.. Among other things, he speculates that Oliver has to remain bonded to the Spectre for 20 years before he is free to live his own life again...

How Crisis Is Using The Spectre and Oliver Queen to Reshape the Arrowverse
Jesse Scheeden   Dec. 11, 2019
https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12/11/oliver-queen-spectre-jim-corrigan-crisis-on-infinite-earths 

Edited December 12, 2019 by tv echo

[Chris24601]

14 hours ago, way2interested said:

This might need to move to the GA&C thread, but I would sooner go with they don't intend to crossover or have a story reason to bring just Mia (maybe others) back to the present before saying that MG is actually lying about it in 2040.

. . .

No idea what might be happening for Dinah and BS for 809 since they didn't seem to film with old makeup, but having 5 characters who are from 2040 to be in 2020 instead I think is too big a reach.

Until its officially picked up, this discussion is technically about episode 8x09 and what it sets up, so I think, for now, we're okay on discussing what the backdoor pilot will set up here (once 8x09 airs and is no longer spoilers for Arrow then I agree it should be appropriate to move it to the GA&tC thread.

And again... I didn't say that 2040 is an outright lie... what I said was "part of me just wonders if that isn't a smokescreen to some extent and there's actually something else going on."

For example, the casting calls for the Superman & Lois series (which I'll drop under a tag since its not an actual Arrow spoiler) indicate that... 

Spoiler

they're casting for a teenage Jon Kent, implying that, barring time-travel, the Superman & Lois series would also be set some time into the future and certainly closer to 2040 than to 2020 if Jon grows up at a natural rate.

Similarly, MB on Supergirl is a trooper, but she signed on for a series filming in LA and rumor has it she has no intention of renewing past whatever she's currently contracted for so she can go back to LA. If that's true (admittedly, a big if) then next season would be Supergirl's final one (a possible reason they're opting to launch the Superman & Lois series in the first place).

Next season would also be season seven for The Flash so it might only be running (pardon the pun) another year or two as it is depending on how much longer GG wants to keep going.

Legends is an ensemble cast of time travelers going into season five this year.

In other words... one possible variation of "something else going on" is that GA&tC will be set in 2040, but what they aren't saying is that the Arrowverse show-runners are planning on shifting other future replacement series to 2040 over the course of the next couple of seasons as their older series end.

Or, another possible variation of the "something else going on" is that GA&tC is taking the idea from Arrow of building the series around both the present day and flashbacks to five years earlier and doing the same with its successor with two parallel timelines of DD & LL setting up the Canary network in 2020 (i.e. no old age makeup) and FTA's adventures in 2040 running parallel to them with no actual time-travel playing a role in the series at all.

That's what I mean by "The show is set in 2040" feeling like its not the whole story.

The big thing that feels out of place to me is that if DD & LL end up in 2040 via time travel... why do they feel compelled to stay there versus hitching a ride back to 2020 with the Legends as soon as they detect the temporal anachronism?

Three people from a now erased future trying to further change things for the better based on their future knowledge and getting help from some people in the past just makes far more conceptual sense (its practically a trope) than two people who played a critical role in past events being pulled into the future and deciding to stay there (particularly if its a bit of a dystopia) instead of struggling to get home so they can stop it from even happening.

The concepts that make the most conceptual sense to me is just straight 2040 (with DD & LL aging REALLY well... almost like they're in a comic book) or parallel timelines (Canaries in 2020, FTA in 2040).

Now that I think about it, the latter would also make crossovers a lot easier on the actors anyway. The crossovers would all be 2020 so only the Canaries are involved in that part and while they're filming the crossover the FTA side is the focus of some minimal/no flashback episodes.

Like I said, I'm just throwing out spitballs at this point. We'll know for sure in about six weeks once 8x09 actually airs. Until then I'm trying to amuse myself playing the speculation game.

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

That's what I mean by "The show is set in 2040" feeling like its not the whole story.

That's fine, it was just that your original point was saying how you weren't sure if 809/the spinoff wasn't actually taking place in 2020, when it was already said by one of the creators that it was. Whether 2020 plays a role in it is another story, which, yeah it could be the flashbacks thing which I think would be the easiest way to settle the conflicting aspects of 809 so far. I actually hope that it is what's going on.

7 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Three people from a now erased future trying to further change things for the better based on their future knowledge and getting help from some people in the past just makes far more conceptual sense (its practically a trope) than two people who played a critical role in past events being pulled into the future and deciding to stay there (particularly if its a bit of a dystopia) instead of struggling to get home so they can stop it from even happening.

A next-gen team in the future protecting a city that their parents did though makes the most sense, which is clearly what the original premise of the show was supposed to be. It's a shame they apparently can't do it for some reason XD. Yeah I get the logistics issues, but with 5 characters from the future at least in 809, it would be easier narratively to let them just stay in 809 and bring the 2 characters who aren't to them.

9 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Now that I think about it, the latter would also make crossovers a lot easier on the actors anyway. The crossovers would all be 2020 so only the Canaries are involved in that part and while they're filming the crossover the FTA side is the focus of some minimal/no flashback episodes.

No way though, if the show does get involved, that they are doing a crossover without KM in it or with just KC and JH in lieu of KM in it, no matter what narrative hoops they have to jump through XD

15 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Like I said, I'm just throwing out spitballs at this point. We'll know for sure in about six weeks once 8x09 actually airs. Until then I'm trying to amuse myself playing the speculation game.

Yeah, for sure. I love spec

[way2interested]

Some answers from Beth on twitter

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

Is it wrong of me to hope that the Canaries part goes over like a lead balloon and we get a straight-up FTA series as a result?

[Josh371982]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Is it wrong of me to hope that the Canaries part goes over like a lead balloon and we get a straight-up FTA series as a result?

Nope. That's what I'm hoping for and hopefully they get feedback that favors a straight up FTA show and NO Canaries. I dont know of anyone who's jonesing for Dinah to be a star in a Spinoff for example 

[shantown]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Is it wrong of me to hope that the Canaries part goes over like a lead balloon and we get a straight-up FTA series as a result?

100% what should happen. I don't really understand what KC has in her contract or whatever that they keep having to bring her back / give her additional backdoor pilots, but it's ridiculous. Never has anything been so "fetch" (ie, NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN.) 

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Arrow's John Barrowman explains why season 8 premiere was his final episode on the show
Jess Lee   Dec. 14, 2019
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a30184621/arrow-john-barrowman-final-episode-im-a-celebrity/ 

Quote

Arrow's John Barrowman made a surprising return during the season 8 premiere, but the star has now confirmed that it was his last episode on the show.

Barrowman appeared as the Earth-2 version of Malcolm Merlyn for the final season (before that Earth got blown up), and speaking to Digital Spy, he explained that prior commitments – including the release of his new festive album A Fabulous Christmas and the UK tour – meant that he was unavailable to make another appearance.
*  *  *
When asked if the season 8 premiere was his final episode, he said: "Yes. I was only able to do that first episode, and they didn't get back to me in time before I booked up my tour, before I booked I'm a Celebrity: Extra Camp.

"There was a bunch of other stuff that came in, and I didn't want to wait around. And it was first come first served, basically.

"So they did check my availability for other episodes, but I wasn't available."
*  *  *
Barrowman added that he was glad to have been able to go back for the season 8 premiere.

"It was lovely to go back," he explained. "To be part of that show for eight years has been incredible, and as I say with every show – Captain Jack changed my life, Arrow changed my life in another way, and it was great to play the villain this time and be, what I call, the passionate but bad dad on there.

"It was good! I enjoyed it. I love playing Malcolm Merlyn. He's a lovely character to play, and it's nice to be an arsehole!"

Edited December 14, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Oliver and Felicity are in both of these sketches, but I don't know yet if they share any scenes in the tie-in comics (btw, I can't find the COIE Giant #1 comic in my local Walmart store or online)...

Edited December 15, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This Dec. 15, 2019 ComicBook article has spoilers about what happens in the first COIE tie-in comic (including Felicity's role and her finding out about Oliver's death)...

Spoiler

In case you couldn't tell by the headline and first paragraph, this is going to be a pretty spoiler-filled breakdown of a key plot element in Crisis on Infinite Earths 100-Page Giant #1, out today in Walmart and available in comic book shops on January 15. So turn back now if you're shy about that kind of thing.

In the first issue of the two-part Crisis on Infinite Earths tie-in comic book from writers Marc Guggenheim and Marv Wolfman and artists Tom Grummett and Tom Derenick, what fans will see is pretty standard "Crisis' stuff. More familiar Earths -- this time from worlds that the showrunner likely could not use, or would not be able to properly translate, on TV -- are snuffed out by an antimatter wave as Pariah looks on. A group of heroes is assembled and, since this is taking place in between parts one and two of the story, Felicity Smoak takes point on trying to figure out who the seven Paragons are.

Fans also get to see how Felicity discovers that her husband is dead, and confronts The Monitor about it. Harbinger/Lyla Michaels admits that she has not yet informed John Diggle about Oliver's death, and Barry Allen/The Flash is there to give Felicity a supportive shoulder. But none of this is the moment that Arrowverse fans are likely to be buzzing about after the issue is over.

Edited December 15, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

No, but it was implied by the Monitor's voiceover intro to 801...

[tv echo]

You can read 8 comic pages with Felicity from COIE Giant #1 in this fan's tweet thread...

Also, here are some fan-cropped close-ups from those Felicity panels...

(source and source and source)

Thank you, Felicity fans!
 

Edited December 16, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Katherine McNamara Talks Arrow and Her New Film "Spirit Riding Free" - Heroes Interviews
Collider Interviews   Dec. 16, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fLTBNAMLaM

-- On her favorite thing that we've haven't seen yet, KM: "I'll tell you this, we haven't yet seen Mia with her hood up. And it's coming... And there's an element to that that is also new that is exciting and fun and I had a hand in helping to create."

Edited December 17, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Nice little summary of Felicity's story in COIE Giant #1...

Crisis Tie-In Comic Shows Felicity Smoak's Reaction to THAT Death
by Meagan Damore – on Dec 16, 2019 
https://www.cbr.com/crisis-tie-in-comic-felicity-reaction-oliver-death/ 

Quote

In "Crisis on Infinite Earths Pt. 1" by Marv Wolfman, Marg Guggenheim, Tom Derenick, Trevor Scott, John Kalisz and Wes Abbot, Felicity learns about Oliver's death by hacking the Waverider's A.I. program when no one else will give her a straight answer. Then, she storms into the Monitor's chamber and confronts him directly.

"How dare you? How could you?" she demanded. "I hacked into the Waverider's records. The man I love -- who means more to me than a thousand universes -- is dead and not only do you not tell me, you act like this is just another Thursday?"
*  *   *
The Monitor only offered her cold comfort in return, explaining that Oliver's death saved millions of lives. He urged her to continue her work with him, so that Oliver's death "was not in vain." Felicity's response? A terse "%$#@ you."

Later, Lyla Michael's Harbinger found her sobbing in a chair. Harbinger revealed she knew all along, but couldn't bring herself to share the terrible news. Indeed, "I haven't even been able to find the words to tell John [Diggle]," Oliver's best friend and longtime partner.

Once she came to terms with her loss, Felicity redoubled her efforts in the hope that finding the Paragons and "re-sparking" the universe would also restore Oliver. She developed an algorithm that allowed them to track down Outkast, Pariah's negative brother. However, he couldn't tell them the location of the Paragons; that had been a lie intended to send them on a wild goose chase. Worse, he was himself an antimatter bomb sent by the Anti-Monitor to destroy the Monitor and his team.
*  *  *
Unfortunately, readers will have to wait until January to see the resolution of this particular cliffhanger. The back half of the story will likely also explain why Felicity has not appeared on screen in the crossover so far and how she came across the Tome of the Guardians, which ultimately led the Monitor to the Paragons.

Edited December 17, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[RS3]

I keep thinking about how MUCH they're pushing this violent murder-y scene for Oliver in the series finale and for the life of me, I can't understand why they want people to get hyped over that. 

If that scene isn't a flashback or a spectre possession or some similar twist that would make him a different Oliver... I'm sure fans who have seen this character evolve would be so excited to see 8 years of character development thrown out the windows for yet another generic bookend ending. One last chance to get the fans riled up for the gotcha moment? I don't know but I'm frustrated. 

[tv echo]

Marv Wolfman talks about writing Felicity's voice for the tie-in comic... 

Crisis on Infinite Earths: How Marv Wolfman Fit Into the TV Crossover
By RUSS BURLINGAME - December 23, 2019 
https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/12/24/crisis-on-infinite-earths-how-marv-wolfman-fit-tv-crossover/

Quote

"As a writer trying to capture other people’s styles, it was perfect knowing that everybody was there to back me up," Wolfman explained. "Marc [Guggenheim] could correct it, Marc could make it work, and also tie it in completely with the shows themselves. I had a great time doing it. It was scary, suddenly to have to write these characters, especially characters like Felicity Smoak, who had specific speech patterns."

Edited December 24, 2019 by tv echo