Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

From the 806 thread:

Maybe now they don’t and we’ll see a different Connor and JJ in 809 and the potential spinoff? Could explain comments about a love triangle with Mia and wasn’t AS on set for 809?

That's what I was thinking. They aren't going to show it because it's changing for the spin off. Maybe Connor ends up their bio son (again). Probably not the last part. AS was seen in SM pics with the cast during filming so is probably in it somehow. 

Reset and the fact that Oliver apparently had to accept deep in his bones that he's going to die, die, die has made me much interested in the rest of the season, even though it didn't actually change anything. 

Re the two birds. Everyone gets to be a Canary now sillies, no problem. White Canary is the only unique one and she only uses the title during crossovers anyway.

I do wonder if something is happening to Laurel in 8x07 to make her not in the crossover because there's been so much tell not show about redemption for the character recently, especially for someone NOT involved in the big climax. They need to get it sorted out now. 

[apinknightmare]

26 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I do wonder if something is happening to Laurel in 8x07 to make her not in the crossover because there's been so much tell not show about redemption for the character recently, especially for someone NOT involved in the big climax. They need to get it sorted out now. 

I think she's going to die/sacrifice herself and that she'll be resurrected after Crisis.

[Primal Slayer]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

So it looks like Dinah and E2 Laurel will be in the same scenes (fight scenes) in next week's episode. I'm curious to see how they handle the fact that both KC and JH are claiming to be Black Canary now. 

By not addressing it lol. Secret identities are practically out the window, esp being in Lian Yu with more boring Deathstrokes.

[insomniadreams88]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

So it looks like Dinah and E2 Laurel will be in the same scenes (fight scenes) in next week's episode. I'm curious to see how they handle the fact that both KC and JH are claiming to be Black Canary now. 

But I think they’re still calling E2 LL Black Siren — at least in the CW photo captions. And the only instance of her being called BC in-show is Mia talking about all the stories she heard about BC, right?

All I ask if Laurel does get some death/sacrifice moment in 807 is there’s not another Oliver/Laurel on her deathbed — but actually her deathbed this time — scene. I’ve had enough scenes with those two after 806. Give that moment to Dinah to build up that relationship for the spinoff. 

[tv echo]

16 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But I think they’re still calling E2 LL Black Siren — at least in the CW photo captions. And the only instance of her being called BC in-show is Mia talking about all the stories she heard about BC, right?

From 805 - only time someone calls E2 Laurel "Black Canary" on the show (so far):
Mia: "You're the Black Canary. All I've ever heard are stories about how great you are. In the future, you even save me once like it was nothing."
E2 Laurel: "Are you sure that's actually me you're talking about?"
Mia: "Okay, you can cut the false modesty. Some people are cut out to be heroes, others not so much."

Here's a wild thought - what if the future, older Laurel that we saw last season saving Mia (in 718) is actually E1 Laurel? And that's why she was wearing E1 Laurel's BC suit. Here's the theory: E1 Laurel is brought to the present from the past to appear in the crossover. Afterwards, she stays in present day to protect Star City as the 2020 Black Canary. Then E2 Laurel and Dinah are transported to the future to be Black Canary or Canaries there and to help Mia/FTA protect Star City in the future.

Edited November 28, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

On 11/26/2019 at 3:18 PM, tv echo said:

Same pic as above, but with KC's instagram comment...

I just discovered that KC changed her comment on this instagram post. When it was originally posted, her comment read: "I hold this photo dear to my heart because it was taken during my final transformation into Black Canary... It's moments like these that I will forever cherish. #Arrow." 

Why change it, unless her original comment was a spoiler (that Black Siren becomes Black Canary in 810)? Then where does that leave Dinah?

Edited November 28, 2019 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I think Laurel and Dinah will both be Black Canary - as dumb as that sounds. I think the caption change is due to the spinoff and people pointing out it won’t be her ‘last transformation’. 

KC has been calling Laurel BC since the start. Adrian called her ‘Pretty Bird’. All the hero talk makes me believe that she might get an official dubbing of BC, my guess is by Oliver. But I don’t think the show is being coy about this, esp with the spinoff title. 

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

I just discovered that KC changed her comment on this instagram post. When it was originally posted, her comment read: "I hold this photo dear to my heart because it was taken during my final transformation into Black Canary... It's moments like these that I will forever cherish. #Arrow." 

Why change it, unless her original comment was a spoiler (that Black Siren becomes Black Canary in 810)? Then where does that leave Dinah?

Maybe because she isnt Black _____ in that scene they are getting ready for? If all of those actors are getting ready together, I'd assume it's for a group scene?

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Regarding MG's two tweets that Laurel is going to be in the Arrow hour of the crossover and that E1 Laurel is going to be in the crossover, and DR's comment that Lian Yu is an "important piece" of the crossover...

I was thinking that, since Oliver is supposed to die in 2019 but the Arrow crossover episode doesn't air until 2020, maybe SA's role in the Arrow hour is as a spirit in Purgatory (which looks like Lian Yu) where he meets and talks to other deceased Arrow characters, like E1 Laurel and maybe Tommy or Moira.

Then the results of whatever discussions Oliver has in 808 lead to whatever ultimately happens to him in the 810 series finale.

Edited December 1, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Yet, according to the already released crossover synopses for Supergirl, Batwoman and Flash, they're using "Part" (not "Hour") in their titles - I wish they'd make up their minds...

Arrow - Episode 8.08 - 8.09 - Titles Revealed
Posted by DarkUFO at December 02, 2019 
https://www.spoilertv.com/2019/12/arrow-episode-808-809-titles-revealed.html

Quote

Here are various new Episode Titles that have been released.

Arrow - Episode 8.08 - Crisis on Infinite Earths: Hour Four
Arrow - Episode 8.09 - Green Arrow & The Canaries

Edited December 2, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

Three Years Ago, "Invasion!" Set Up Oliver Queen's Crisis on Infinite Earths Sacrifice
By RUSS BURLINGAME - December 2, 2019
https://comicbook.com/2019/12/02/three-years-ago-invasion-set-up-oliver-queens-crisis-on-infinite/ 

Quote

"Mia feels that Oliver chose strangers; he chose to be a hero," Katherine McNamara, who plays Oliver's daughter Mia and will headline the planned Green Arrow and the Canaries spinoff, told ComicBook.com recently. "He chose, in her eyes, that fame and that success and that adulation over his family -- over being there for her, and he abandoned her for the life of a hero. And that brings a lot of resentment in her. And as she gets to see the reasoning behind his choices and really the world and the difficulty of the choices that he's presented with, that allows her to start to work through those issues....So, we get to see the two of them take on these issues together. But it definitely is a process."

Edited December 3, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[Soulfire]

[tv echo]

Posted 32 minutes ago...

[apinknightmare]

Too bad Dinah and Rene survive:

[tv echo]

[way2interested]

I was waiting for Dinah to mention how she learned to fly a plane while she was undercover one time.

[Josh371982]

3 hours ago, Soulfire said:

Is it wrong I got a little Verklempt seeing Mia give her daddy a big hug?

[Trisha]

[scarynikki12]

Does Roy lose an arm or is it just Oliver in the comics?

[statsgirl]

I'm looking at this as the last real Arrow episode.   The next one is COIE, then the Canaries pilot, and then the final wrap-up episode. So for me, this is the last real normal episode of this show that I've stanned for almost 8 years.  (sob)

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Does Roy lose an arm or is it just Oliver in the comics?

He loses an arm. RIP left or right, whichever one is not long for this world. 

[statsgirl]

So COIE does change the future because 2040 Roy had both his arms.

[Primal Slayer]

15 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

So COIE does change the future because 2040 Roy had both his arms.

The future has to already be changed with FTA being in the present. Everyone knows Felicity had a kiid now lol

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

The future has to already be changed with FTA being in the present. Everyone knows Felicity had a kiid now lol

I wonder if that will still be true Post-Crisis however. I think the Crisis trailer just showed us how the 2040 we saw could still play out exactly like we saw.

Specifically, the new Crisis trailer showed Rene and Dinah being disintegrated by the antimatter wave. They only way they're even alive in 2040 if that's the case is if the universe gets rebooted (likely to include the events of Earth-38 always having happened on Earth-1) like in the actual Crisis from the comics.

And if its rebooted that means there's a prospect that the universe that comes out the other end of Crisis will be one where no one remembers Mia, William and Connor visiting the past (and presumably one where Roy never loses his arm).

Ollie, wherever he ends up Post-Crisis, is probably the only one from 2019-2020 who actually remembers them and he won't be in a position to tell anyone about them. He gets the gift of seeing how his kids turned out and his kids get the gift of getting to better know and understand their father going forward... but without affecting anything we saw in s7 because the re-booted Roy, Rene and Dinah don't ever learn that Felicity was pregnant.

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Specifically, the new Crisis trailer showed Rene and Dinah being disintegrated by the antimatter wave.

That's old footage from 801

[Chris24601]

9 hours ago, lemotomato said:

That's old footage from 801

Well, shoot.

To be fair, I mentally block out all things Rene and Dinah by default.

Frankly, for all they’ve done this season the show runners could probably just reuse that footage and almost no one else would either.

It also doesn’t negate that a comic-style Crisis universe reboot would be an explanation for why 2040 still happened the way it did even if we don’t see Rene and Dinah wiped out again.

Unrelated, but the new still images appear to show that Mia will get her Green Arrow outfit during Crisis (the new outfit matches the lines of the one on GA&tC fake comic cover) which I think argues that Mia (and by extension William and Connor) physically goes back to 2040 afterwards vs. getting rebooted and seeing a new version of her in 8x09.

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Unrelated, but the new still images appear to show that Mia will get her Green Arrow outfit during Crisis (the new outfit matches the lines of the one on GA&tC fake comic cover) which I think argues that Mia (and by extension William and Connor) physically goes back to 2040 afterwards vs. getting rebooted and seeing a new version of her in 8x09.

I don't know what happens either way, but I'm interested to see how this whole change the future thing ultimately pans out. Unless there are two versions of Mia running around somewhere (not counting that out as a possibility), I'm not sure how she doesn't change at least a little bit. Star City's dismal issues seem to have been at least somewhat changed since they dealt with the Deathstroke thing early on, and I don't see how Mia's life doesn't turn out completely differently if Diggle gets Oliver's message to Felicity (I don't want to be a 🤡 and hope that Oliver gets to deliver it himself) and she and William get to grow up together. There was also that BTS video that Caity Lotz posted of Mia in a nice bedroom (in what looked like Queen mansion) with no tattoos or anything that doesn't make sense unless she does change or there's more than one of her.

[Josh371982]

I just know that the implication that Mia is gonna be in a gross love triangle with Brothers sours me on a Spinoff show. I dont understand why its needed and why they just cant have Mia with Connor and Maybe have JJ be Bi or Gay and be with William. But then again I'm not gonna ship Mia with a Guy who've I've seen have every intention of slicing her throat and kill someone she considered an ally/friend like some people are online. Jen(JbuffyAngel)even disappointed me being for this gross love triangle. Edit: now I'm realizing by that Criteria I shouldn't ship JJ with William either 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Josh371982

[Chris24601]

I know I'm probably the odd man out, but I am actually hoping we actually do go back to 2040 as it was specifically because a solid part of the dynamic between Mia and William is that we get see them get to know each other and experience various firsts (and because they're siblings its a 100% ship-free relationship).

If that's changed to them growing up together they're effectively completely different characters than the ones we've known; they just happen to be played by the same actors.

ETA: It also means Ollie didn't actually meet his future kids, he met a version of who they could have been and the kids he's been bonding with since the end of ep 3 will cease to exist post-Crisis and the replacement Mia would have never actually gotten know her real live father.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Chris24601

[Josh371982]

I'm holding onto my theory that Mia Is Socalite heiress by day Vigilante by night in the backdoor pilot AND shes one of the people who retains their memories after Crisis is over and The Reset occurs. 

[tv echo]

Felicity on cover! ...

(source)

How The CW's 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' Is Jumping to Comics
DECEMBER 05, 2019 6:00AM by Graeme McMillan
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/cws-crisis-infinite-earths-continues-2-issue-dc-comic-book-starting-month-1259711

Quote

Marc, you talked about the comic book chapters having story that didn’t fit into the five hours of television. How did you decide which characters you were going to focus on, and what story you could tell?
*  *  *
As far as characters, I started off with Felicity Smoak. I think, of all the characters that are not in the crossover that I think people wanted to see, Felicity is probably at the top of that list. I included the Ray, from the Crisis on Earth-X crossover we did a few years ago as well as the animated series we did for CW Seed, and then there was going to be another character — a brand new character, because I thought it could be fun to add to the toolbox, but we had a lot of creative discussions, and it was decided, let’s use a pre-established Arrowverse character, so I chose Nyssa Al-Ghul, because Katrina [Law] is on another show and wasn’t available to participate in the crossover.

Edited December 5, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Edited December 5, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

The rest of this interview is about the crossover, but this one comment was specifically about Diggle and Lyla on Arrow...

Audrey Marie Anderson on ‘Crisis on Infinite Earths’ and Finally Getting Her Own Supersuit
BY CHRISTINA RADISH      DECEMBER 5, 2019
https://collider.com/crisis-on-infinite-earths-audrey-marie-anderson-interview/ 

Quote

Obviously, there are a lot of storylines to address and wrap up, but by the end of Arrow, will we feel as though we have some sense of where life could go next for Lyla and Diggle?
ANDERSON: Yes, you’ll get that. They do a good job, towards the end, of really buttoning up a lot of things. You’ll definitely get a sense for where they’re going and where they might pop up again. There’s definitely a sense that you might see something with them again. I don’t know what. I’m not teasing anything. But I’m just saying that there’s just that sense that you can imagine what they’ll be doing.

Edited December 5, 2019 by tv echo

[Trisha]

There's not a long of Arrow-specific content in the new crossover trailer but Oliver's "find your mother. Tell her how much I love her" to Mia got me. 😭

[Trisha]

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Trisha

[Featherhat]

Quote

808 -- Incredibly emotional and raw.
809 -- @#$!%ing bad ass.
810 -- One of my favorite scenes in the finale.

8 - Oliver seeing E1 in the afterlife? 

9- obviously backdoor pilot shenanigans, though I never find any Laurel action scenes believable. 

10 - E2 and Felicity at Oliver's funeral maybe. Though could be a lot of things. 

I'm just going to be a complete wreck when it comes to any Oliver related content this entire crossover. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Featherhat

[way2interested]

[tv echo]

At the end of 807, when Oliver asked Diggle to track down Felicity and tell her not to keep their kids separated, I was expecting Oliver also to ask Diggle to tell Felicity that he (Oliver) loves her. So I was disappointed when he didn't. 

But now, after watching the COIE extended trailer (where Oliver says to Mia: "Find your mother. Tell her how much I love her."), I understand why he didn't in 807. They were saving this line for the crossover. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by tv echo

[insomniadreams88]

But it doesn’t make sense:

”Diggle, track down Felicity ... in the cabin you brought us to.”

”Mia, find your mother ... in the cabin where you spent almost your entire life.”

[tv echo]

15 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But it doesn’t make sense:

”Diggle, track down Felicity ... in the cabin you brought us to.”

”Mia, find your mother ... in the cabin where you spent almost your entire life.”

Here's what I think might be happening...

Oliver expects to die during the Crisis, so he won't be around to talk to Felicity after the Crisis is over.

Other than his death, he doesn't know what will happen during the Crisis. He also knows that the future has already been changed (Grant Wilson was captured and can't influence young JJ, Roy got his arm cut off). 

He maybe has been in touch with Felicity and knows that she's going to help out during the Crisis (as evidenced by the tie-in comic, where it looks like Felicity is not in the cabin).

Therefore, after the Crisis is over, he isn't sure where Felicity will be.

So that's why he tells Diggle, "When this is over, track down Felicity...." And he tells Mia, "Find your mother...."

Edited December 8, 2019 by tv echo

[Trisha]

I keep seeing vague mentions on Twitter about info that leaked which will hugely affect Oliver and Arrow’s final episodes, but I don’t know the actual spoiler. Anyone see it?

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I keep seeing vague mentions on Twitter about info that leaked which will hugely affect Oliver and Arrow’s final episodes, but I don’t know the actual spoiler. Anyone see it?

Was it the leaked info about Crisis part 1 you mean?

[Trisha]

23 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Was it the leaked info about Crisis part 1 you mean?

No idea what episode they’re talking about, just that it’s something big surrounding Oliver, I think?

[smoakdig]

52 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I keep seeing vague mentions on Twitter about info that leaked which will hugely affect Oliver and Arrow’s final episodes, but I don’t know the actual spoiler. Anyone see it?

yep. Oliver is gonna die at the end of the first episode and Monitor says "it was not supposed to be like this. this is not his ending i foresaw"

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Trisha said:

No idea what episode they’re talking about, just that it’s something big surrounding Oliver, I think?

They were deleted off of the Crisis thread, but the Arrow related spoilers for part one are

Spoiler

Oliver and Mia are transported to Earth-38, they are set to protect the Quantum Tower to protect Earth-38 while the Supergirl characters take the lead in trying to save the people. We see 2046 Oliver again, revealed to be Earth-16 Oliver. Oliver gives Mia her fancy new suit. Once the Earth is about to be destroyed, everyone else leaves the Earth for safety while Oliver remains to give them more time, even shooting at the Monitor to prevent him from teleporting him away. The Monitor then brings him back to the group. Oliver dies, but the Monitor proclaims that this was not part of the plan, 

I'd hold off on it affecting the last episodes just yet, though

[tv echo]

"Crisis on Infinite Earths" Will Change DC's TV Universe Forever
By Tim Beedle      Friday, December 6th, 2019
https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/12/06/crisis-on-infinite-earths-will-change-dcs-tv-universe-forever 

Quote

“I don't think we ever really felt like the TV universe was too complex,” explains Consulting Producer Marc Guggenheim, the mastermind behind the crossover. “We've only got eight years of continuity and DC had fifty. But the way we all sort of looked at it was, it's an opportunity. If we want to fix something, it’s there. If we want to change something, it's there. If we want to set something up, it's there.”
*  *  *
“One of the things we took a lot of pride in was being able to write an interaction on Argo City that kind of reimagines Zor-El saying goodbye to Kal-El,” shares Supergirl showrunner Robert Rovner. “Also, there's a scene you get between Mia and Oliver that I quite love when he gives her an Arrow costume, and there's a lovely scene between Clark and Kara on the balcony when they're talking about legacies and how do they move on from the destruction of Argo City at the beginning of the hour.”
*  *  *
But perhaps no show is impacted more than the one that started it all. Arrow is now in its final season—a shortened season of only ten episodes. There are two of them remaining after “Crisis,” and the content of those two hours remains a pretty big mystery. But it’s clear that they’ll be considerably different than the ones that came before the event.

“We’re going towards the end of our season and series, so it’s different than the crossovers have been in the past,” shares Arrow showrunner Beth Schwartz. “It changes literally everything on Arrow.”

Edited December 8, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Part 4 of the crossover is Arrow 808...

'Crisis on Infinite Earths': What's in Store for 'Supergirl' & 'Batwoman'
Michael Maloney December 08, 2019
https://www.tvinsider.com/838508/crisis-on-infinite-earths-supergirl-batwoman/ 

Quote

On what viewers should know ahead of Crisis
Marc Guggenheim: "In consultation with the network, they were of the opinion, and we agreed, that you really don’t need any kind of setup. It’s fun to [re-watch] see last year’s crossover and meet The Monitor (LaMonica Garrett) and know that a Crisis is coming and that Oliver (Stephen Amell) has made a bargain, but you get all that information in the body of the story. We’re not doing a recap. The only recap we’ll have is at the beginning of Part 4 in January. We feel like you can dive right in."
*  *  *
On the fun interactions in the first two parts of Crisis 
Rovner: "One of the things we took a pride in is the interaction on Argo City. Also, Marc wrote a lovely scene between Mia [Katherine McNamara] and Oliver that I love. There’s a lovely scene between Clark [Tyler Hoechlin] and Kara [Melissa Benoist] on [a] balcony."
*  *  *
On putting the heroes in life-and-death jeopardy knowing they can’t really all be killed off
Schwartz: "[Joking] They can’t?"

Guggenheim: "It’s a good question. It’s hard to answer without spoiling where we’re headed. I think once you see all five hours, all the twists and turns will feel satisfying."

Edited December 8, 2019 by tv echo