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SilverStormm

S08.E05: The Bells

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Why is Jon being saved by a woman somehow a knock against him?..  Or his birth parents.. All I know is Jon has worked for it and he inspires others.. He's not arrogant and has never carried himself as someone who "deserved" anything just because he was a Stark... He's fought and won.. He's  fought and lost... His father (uncle)  step son.. Brothers... Have been butchered.. The first woman he loved was killed.. He was murdered... Ol boy has been thru a lot.. He's earned his spot in this last episode 

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1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

As @Lady S. pointed out, the number of questions Ned asked the Night's Watch deserter was equal to the amount of gold extracted from the Lannister mines in the last several years.

Ned didn't even talk to the man and barely acknowledged him. It came across to me as anything but contemplative.

Which makes sense since the method of execution was typically different for nobles and commoners in medieval Europe.

Still, Ned did behead the Night's Watch deserter.  I doubt he was a high lord.  I suppose we can chalk it up to Ned's respect for the Night's Watch, but I suspect the true purpose was to give Ned a chance to talk to Bran about "the old way", to show off Ice, etc

Talking to someone can be a sign of contemplation, but it's not dispositive.  NOT talking to someone is also not dispositive, though I think it can be a sign that someone didn't think through their actions. 

Neds explanation of why he undertook the action was evidence if his forethought, and the fact that it didn't, as far as I remember take place directly after the desertion.

But again, I don't really play compare and contrast.  What he said made sense, and so I assume that he exercised some forethought and it's the impression that I got.  I didn't get that from Dany as all, what I got was "oh, you think you're cute choosing cersei over me....I got something for you, and it's going to particularly terrible cause I'm pissed off."

I don't think she chose dragon fire because she thought it was humane.  I think she chose Dragonfire because it wasn't.

Edited by RealReality
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1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

If Tyrion's plan worked and Cersei and Jaime escaped to Pentos, how could this be verified beyond Tyrion's say so? And why would Daenerys trust his say so at that point?

If tyrion's plan had worked, I think Dany would have (may still) execute him.  At this point besides the boat being on the beach no one can know tyrion's plan didn't work.  And if it did work, I'd be especially pissed if I were Dany because cersei would be sitting somewhere plotting her comeback.

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4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

"Fewer."

As horrible as he ended up being... With burning all them ppl alive including his daughter and killing his own brother with his shadow son that he created from cheating on his wife with a centuries old witch.. (Damn stannis was a shit)  There was always something about him... Plus he really was a grammar hardliner 

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2 minutes ago, RealReality said:

If tyrion's plan had worked, I think Dany would have (may still) execute him.  At this point besides the boat being on the beach no one can know tyrion's plan didn't work.  And if it did work, I'd be especially pissed if I were Dany because cersei would be sitting somewhere plotting her comeback.

yeah as sad as it is.. Unless he just runs away or finds Jon and hides behind him I kinda expect Tyrion to be killed pretty early in the episode... We know what he was trying to do.. We know why.. Hell Dany probably knows why.. But  at this point... Its over.. She already said basically one more screwup and ur done... And unless ahead really has gone mad she has to know that he can't advise her in good conscience anymore after what's happened ( unless bran really did it) so as Dany torched the place anyway I think Tyrion should find Jon or Davos and lay low... 

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45 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

As horrible as he ended up being... With burning all them ppl alive including his daughter and killing his own brother with his shadow son that he created from cheating on his wife with a centuries old witch.. (Damn stannis was a shit)  There was always something about him... Plus he really was a grammar hardliner 

In another universe, he would've been too busy binging My 600 Lb. Life and loving these forums to get into all that mess. 

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Rewatched again... The actual " battle" if you can call it that was over in like less than 5 mins... So with the bran theory it could make sense... Cuz she really was at least headed for the red keep and then we see the shot of the shadow of a dragon from seasons ago.. and then carnage... But Grey Worm didn't even seem surprised... Seems he was just waiting for her to start up again.. So I dunno... Until tonight totally clarifies it.. I'll go with she did it on purpose to scare everyone str8 and protect future generations or somn like that.. Will be her explanation.. If she actually gives one... Also you think there will be any kinda time jump towards the beginning of the episode... I mean ppl all across the world need time to find out what happened right... And ima need the super smug look Sansa is gonna have knowing she was right.. And then the super scared look knowing she was right and Dany will probably wanna kill her... 

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Just saw something referring to how the Lord of the Light brought back Melisandre and Berrick to fulfill their purposes, then they died for real.  What if Jon kills Dany and then his purpose is fulfilled and he dies?  Will the writers even acknowledge that?  There's not enough time to hit on everything.  There are just soooo many possibilities.  Part of me doesn't want to know how they will do this. lol  The other part wants to know if it's nine o'clock yet.  

note:  I'm not sure if the Lord of the Light brought back Melisandre or just kept her alive till she did what she was supposed to.  

Edited by kelslamu
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2 hours ago, RealReality said:

Talking to someone can be a sign of contemplation, but it's not dispositive.  NOT talking to someone is also not dispositive, though I think it can be a sign that someone didn't think through their actions. 

Neds explanation of why he undertook the action was evidence if his forethought, and the fact that it didn't, as far as I remember take place directly after the desertion.

But again, I don't really play compare and contrast.  What he said made sense, and so I assume that he exercised some forethought and it's the impression that I got.  I didn't get that from Dany as all, what I got was "oh, you think you're cute choosing cersei over me....I got something for you, and it's going to particularly terrible cause I'm pissed off."

I don't think she chose dragon fire because she thought it was humane.  I think she chose Dragonfire because it wasn't.

I think she chose it because the dragon is her hallmark and symbol of her power and right to be Queen. (not that I think it is her right - going by her logic Jon is the rightful king - going by real life Games of Thrones - it's whoever wins.)

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I know her scene was intercut with Cleganebowl... But watching arya run thru KL.. Reminded me of Jon at the BOTB... Lots of things could and probably will happen that I won't like... But unforgivable to me will be if I don't get a proper Jon/ Arya talk

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3 hours ago, RealReality said:

I don't think she chose dragon fire because she thought it was humane.  I think she chose Dragonfire because it wasn't.

I agree to the extent that she used it because it made a statement and it got the holdouts' asses in line. Very effective in the short term, how much so in the long term is up for debate. As many have said before me, if she had just had her Dothrakis behead them, I don't think people would have made much of a fuss. Either in that world or this one. That kind of thing would have been SOP in time of war.

Ruthless, but doesn't pass the Mad Queen test by my thinking.

Edited by MJ Frog · Reason: To add a thing.
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8 hours ago, ursula said:

Oh and the first woman, the genius-level badass normal drop dead gorgeous female billionaire? That's Batman sans dick.

I was thinking Tony Stark.

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On 5/17/2019 at 11:35 AM, DarkRaichu said:

Knowing the showrunners though, Bronn is going to shoot Dany with that fancy crossbow (at Tyrion's request) while Jon is busy getting chased by the dragon

Well... if you have a crossbow THAT nice, it’d be a shame not to use it....

8 hours ago, ursula said:

If he could claim he stopped being a Night's Watch because he died... Therefore, he wasn't Lord Commander after he died either.

Considering a significant portion of the Night’s Watch comes from the dregs of society, I doubt anybody’s going to be quoting points of order out of a rule book.  😁  

Jon was standing, walking and talking, so to the rest of the NW he was still the active Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and responsible for executing the duties of such - right up until he pointed out that he had, in fact, fulfilled the entirety of his NW oath.

8 hours ago, ursula said:

Whether they deserved to die or not was no longer up to him, and should have been left to the succeeding Lord Commander to decide.

...and had Jon done so, I have little doubt someone would have been dinging him for cowardice and/or dereliction of duty in passing the burden of the executions to the next guy.  No-win situation.

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Season 6 Buffy climaxed with a story arc very similar to what we saw last week. The difference is that it was told way, way better. The Danaerys version was so crudely written that I'm half expecting tonight to start with something like this:

And you know what? Maybe then she can have the stupid throne, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, who am I even supposed to root for? Jon is a dumber, less streetwise version of Ned. Tyrion is so naive that as soon as his ass touched the throne Bronn would walk in with a crossbow and steal everything. For Arya to settle down into an administrative gig would go against every grain of character they've built into her. I'd be okay with Sam and Gilly, but it won't happen. Same with like Brienne or Podrick or Grey Worm. Sansa is a paranoid isolationist- hardly a figure to unite kingdoms together. Davos is pretty old, heirless, and, unfortunately, not even a primary character. So fuck it. Maybe they'll just say "A wizard did it, but then she got better and now she's a good guy again." Sad thing is, if they do pull some shit like that, I might have to just swallow it. There are characters I would like to see survive, but as far as the throne itself goes, there is no happy end anywhere in sight. 

Edited by CletusMusashi

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3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

yeah as sad as it is.. Unless he just runs away or finds Jon and hides behind him I kinda expect Tyrion to be killed pretty early in the episode... We know what he was trying to do.. We know why.. Hell Dany probably knows why.. But  at this point... Its over.. She already said basically one more screwup and ur done... And unless ahead really has gone mad she has to know that he can't advise her in good conscience anymore after what's happened ( unless bran really did it) so as Dany torched the place anyway I think Tyrion should find Jon or Davos and lay low... 

I have a feeling that Tyrion has the mightiest plot armor of all. I’d love to see him burned in the opening moments of the show; but I just don’t see it happening - sadly. 

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9 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I have a feeling that Tyrion has the mightiest plot armor of all. I’d love to see him burned in the opening moments of the show; but I just don’t see it happening - sadly. 

Love to see him burned... Geesh that's dark.. Don't know what he's done to deserve that but cool. 

Edited by UNOSEZ

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15 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

For Arya to settle down into an administrative gig would go against every grain of character they've built into her

That's true.. But her character did start to make a new trajectory last episode.. It was very Jon-esque when she told the huddled masses that if they stayed there they would die ( like Jon at hardhome)  wouldn't call her 1st real rescue/hero mission a success... And it seems she's got murder on the brain again.. But since hot pie told her that Jon was alive and at Winterfell ( and Sansa too I guess)  she's been like 70% Arya and 30% No one/ Vengence Killbot... And now 85 % Arya Stark and 15% Vengeance/ Protector Killbot 

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I actually did like Arya deciding to be a hero to the living instead of just avenging the dead. It is one of the very few good things I can say about the episode. I also appreciated her last moments with Sandor. Can we just forget about Jon and Dany and Sansa and go straight to the pilot episode for a wandering Arya spinoff?

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3 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

I actually did like Arya deciding to be a hero to the living instead of just avenging the dead. It is one of the very few good things I can say about the episode. I also appreciated her last moments with Sandor. Can we just forget about Jon and Dany and Sansa and go straight to the pilot episode for a wandering Arya spinoff?

Yara.. As thanks for killing the Night King  ( who killed Theon)  gives Arya a ship and some men.. If grey worm is out of his funk and not dead he hitches a ride and nymeria pops back up.. And they head for whatever is west of westeros... 

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:35 PM, DarkRaichu said:

Logic says Jon is the only one who can get close enough to Dany when Drogon is around.

Knowing the showrunners though, Bronn is going to shoot Dany with that fancy crossbow (at Tyrion's request) while Jon is busy getting chased by the dragon 

Given that Jaime is the man with the golden arm, he should be the one chasing the dragon

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Athena

Keep it polite. Do not get personal and do not get into repetitive arguments about the characters or what defines a fiction. Further posts will be hidden and posters will be warned.

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