S05.E07: Chapter Eighty-Eight

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

TBA

Promo:

Clip:

Original air date: 5/8/19

Edited May 5, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that felt all forced and stupid.

When the show actually let Jane and Michael breathe as characters, Gina and Brett shined and showed that they still got that chemistry. But when they piled contrived drama on them, they really, really failed. 

As much as I get how Rafael is part of Jane's decision, they wrote it so badly that I'm in disbelief. Having Michael choose Jane only for Jane to choose Rafael actually was the last straw for me. We all called Michael being brought back as a way to soothe Rafael's fragile ego so he could be first choice, and they....they really packed no punches. 

Yeah, well this is it for me, since Michael seems to be gone. I'm ok with having my Wednesdays open up again. No way do I stick around for the last 12 episodes. I'm sorry, but I'll admit I'm a Bitter Betty. 

As much as I chuckled at Brett's real life fiancee making an appearance as Charlie, that whole thing wasn't great. 

Yeah...I'm just pissed off with how poorly they handled Michael's return. He shouldn't have returned at all, at this point.

Also, NO BROGELIO MOMENTS. SCREW THIS SHOW EVEN HARDER. 

[MajesticMariposa]

Well, show this is where we part ways. It's been a long time since I've had such a visceral reaction to a show that I honestly can't completely process my feelings except to say FU to whoever thought bringing Michael back just to shit on all his memories was a good idea.

Other thoughts:

• No reunion with Rogelio? Still.
• Weird that they expected the bull to wait for them while Jane practiced lassoing. Why didn't they expect him to run off even further?
• The complete tonal shift at the end of the episode was so unnatural. How can you go from J&M to Raf, just like that? It was too abrupt. It could've just ended with her realizing she wanted to be with him. Now, we had to go back to more bitchy Raf. Although, I admit I did get a small cackle out of him saying he couldn't trust her anymore.
• Why is everyone acting as though Michael just moved away and then came back to town. HE WAS TORTURED UNTIL HIS MEMORIES DISAPPEARED AND KIDNAPPED FROM HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS FOR 4 YEARS. I will keep stressing that until it's addressed in some meaningful way, but since this is my last episode I guess that means never.
• I stopped watching after Michael died largely because I love BD, but mainly because I hate love triangles and I knew that's what would happen and I was right. This whole story makes me sick, because it's basically saying Michael was in the way of J&R all this time, in the way of Jane's true "destiny."
• Brett looked really good in his MT garb.
• Why does every show I like have to ruin itself in the final season? The only one I can think of from the top of my head that I didn't completely hate is CXG, but even that had its moments.
• I like the narrator's comment on Michael's detective work.
• As soon as I saw Charlie was BD's irl fiancee, I knew what Michael's ending would be.
• I can handle Raf being endgame, whatever, but using another beloved character as a plot device to get there is just wrong imo. Still annoyed by everyone's shitty attitudes.
• I'm pissed. 
• Will add more later as more comments come in.

[MajesticMariposa]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Yeah, well this is it for me, since Michael seems to be gone. I'm ok with having my Wednesdays open up again. No way do I stick around for the last 12 episodes. I'm sorry, but I'll admit I'm a Bitter Betty. 

Same here. Maybe we can get Rose to erase our memories. Do you think she does selective memory wiping, or is it an all-or-nothing deal? 😂

[MajesticMariposa]

13 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

As much as I get how Rafael is part of Jane's decision, they wrote it so badly that I'm in disbelief. Having Michael choose Jane only for Jane to choose Rafael actually was the last straw for me. We all called Michael being brought back as a way to soothe Rafael's fragile ego so he could be first choice, and they....they really packed no punches. 

They made it seem like Jane chose Raf because he was at peace in her visions and she won't be happy unless her life is drama. So now the rest of the show will be about her grovelling for forgiveness because she had lingering feelings for her dead husband that he found and returned? And then of course Raf will continue to whine and she'll eventually say something sappy about him being her final choice, not her second choice. 🙄 Does anyone really want to watch that for 12 episodes? It seems like the show is pushing the idea that she and Raf need to be together because he's Mateo's dad, but that doesn't make sense because of the twins--who everyone forgets about, constantly. Jane didn't even factor them into her vision when she fantasized about asking Raf to move to MT or whatever.

[BAH]

Well  I’m just gonna wallow in sadness for a while.  that is all. Honestly don’t know if I will continue watching; it might make my heart hurt in sympathy for Michael when I do.

[tennisgurl]

So this is why they brought Michael back from the dead? To drag his dead corpse around so that Jane could break his heart and pick Rafael "for real" to sooth his petty, whiny feelings. And it kills me, because I was fine with Rafael/Jane being endgame! I really was, despite being a huge Michael and Michael/Jane fan! I made some peace with Michael being that perfect first love for Jane and her finding love again with Rafael, I could be fine with that. But this? Trying to ruin our memories of Michael, having Jane ditch him in Montana for Rafael, and him just being unceremoniously shoved off the show so that Jane can pine after Raf at his most dickish and whiny? What a massive fuck you to Michael and anyone who cared about him. This is all so contrived, so stupid, and has to make the characters be either stupid or assholes, his whole resurrection has been a total mess from start to finish.

So now Michael is alone with just his brain damage and people that dont even really know him. At least he has his horse? 

I dont get why everyone is acting like Michael is just some ex of Jane's that moved out of town, that she had to get over. They thought he was dead! He was kidnapped and tortured and got brain damage, and lost years of his life and no one cared!! Everyone just acted like it was an inconvenience to Raf and Jane, Michael never even talked about what happened to him or how he felt about it, and now his wife has told him that he is his past, and not his future? Michael is the victim in all of this, and no one gives a shit! So now he is left all alone in Montana, knowing his wife doesent love him anymore. No happy ending for him I guess! take that for getting in the way of Jane/Raf by existing! So great, such romance. And Raf is just being such a DICK about everything. Jane shouldn't have to apologize, he husband came back from the dead! And he acted like her wanting some time to figure things out was just such a betrayal, that now he cant even talk to her after she left Michael in Montana? Dude is being so petty, and now we have to watch Jane follow him around pathetically and beg for his forgiveness, even though Michael chose her and would have done anything to be with her. UGGGGG.

I am so upset, I cant even enjoy the Latin Lover Narrator, who has saved a lot of the season for me. 

And I still cant believe we never saw Michael and Rogelio reuniting. NEVER! This show never cared about Michael, he was just a temporary roadblock to a Raf/Jane endgame.

Edited May 9, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Lady Calypso]

Also, to point out, I absolutely predict that Michael will be back once more to say that he's now with Charlie and he's getting to be happy, even if it's without Jane, and that him and Charlie being together is all due to Jane....which, ok, fine, they'll give Michael some sort of happy ending but it doesn't excuse how they executed this entire storyline. They still butchered everyone and had to break Michael's heart for it. 

So no, I can't forgive this show for what they've done to Michael and to Rafael. 

[MajesticMariposa]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont get why everyone is acting like Michael is just some ex of Jane's that moved out of town, that she had to get over.

Yes! This is my biggest issue with this season. The way they have completely glossed over the magnitude of what happened to him is just...beyond words. There were a thousand other things they could have done for this final season, but because this show has the love triangle so stuck up its ass, they were too lazy to execute something more creative. I hate love triangles, especially ones that are repeated. And I hate that the show uses "it's a telenovela" as an excuse. If they were going to insist on doing this, they could have at least used someone new. Maybe have her date someone seriously after Michael died who moved away for a job or something and then have him come back. But I guess then Raf would complain about being 3rd choice...🙄

[natyxg]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

So this is why they brought Michael back from the dead? To drag his dead corpse around so that Jane could break his heart and pick Rafael "for real" to sooth his petty, whiny feelings. And it kills me, because I was fine with Rafael/Jane being endgame! I really was, despite being a huge Michael and Michael/Jane fan! I made some peace with Michael being that perfect first love for Jane and her finding love again with Rafael, I could be fine with that. But this? Trying to ruin our memories of Michael, having Jane ditch him in Montana for Rafael, and him just being unceremoniously shoved off the show so that Jane can pine after Raf at his most dickish and whiny? What a massive fuck you to Michael and anyone who cared about him. This is all so contrived, so stupid, and has to make the characters be either stupid or assholes, his whole resurrection has been a total mess from start to finish.

I dont get why everyone is acting like Michael is just some ex of Jane's that moved out of town, that she had to get over. They thought he was dead! He was kidnapped and tortured and got brain damage, and lost years of his life and no one cared!! Everyone just acted like it was an inconvenience to Raf and Jane, Michael never even talked about what happened to him or how he felt about it, and now his wife has told him that he is his past, and not his future? Michael is the victim in all of this, and no one gives a shit! So now he is left all alone in Montana, knowing his wife doesent love him anymore. No happy ending for him I guess! take that for getting in the way of Jane/Raf by existing! So great, such romance. And Raf is just being such a DICK about everything. Jane shouldn't have to apologize, he husband came back from the dead! And he acted like her wanting some time to figure things out was just such a betrayal, that now he cant even talk to her after she left Michael in Montana? Dude is being so petty, and now we have to watch Jane follow him around pathetically and beg for his forgiveness, even though Michael chose her and would have done anything to be with her. UGGGGG.

I am so upset, I cant even enjoy the Latin Lover Narrator, who has saved a lot of the season for me. 

And I still cant believe we never saw Michael and Rogelio reuniting. NEVER! This show never cared about Michael, he was just a temporary roadblock to a Raf/Jane endgame.

I haven't watched tonight's episode yet, but I agree with most of this. I too was fine with Rafael and Jane as endgame (I always knew they would be) and I was actually okay with Michael dying because IT PROTECTED HIM and JANE/MICHAEL. I knew the triangle would never be over and now that they were married the next step was to ruin Michael and their marriage so Jane could end with Rafael. So I thought we dodged that bullet when Michael died, and I really liked the idea of letting both loves be as genuine, just one after the other.  I also thought that they handled Jane's mourning over Michael quite well and in a way that showed how much she loved him.

Now, all of this is a HUGE slap in the face of everything. They are ruining everything and everyone over a storyline that WAS NOT NEEDED AT ALL. Like I said the other day, there was nothing to indicate that Jane needed some Michael closure before she could be fully with Rafael. So, it's not one of those cases when you have a messy story that feels necessary. This wasn't. And it has ruined everything. It destroyed Michael as a person by destroying his mind and stealing his life (and like you say, no one cared). It has ruined Rafael, who's showing to be an unreliable, unstable partner who needs therapy more than he needs Jane. It as ruined Jane, who we saw mourn so much for Michael and who now has spent all this time in ME ME ME mode,  barely showing compassion or empathy for the man she mourned for literal years.

I mean, I could go on, but just... fuck you, show. Just fuck you. And now I don't even want Rafael and Jane to end up together, and will be grossed out when they do. Great job, you've really done it.

Seriously, did they change writers or something?

[natyxg]

8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, to point out, I absolutely predict that Michael will be back once more to say that he's now with Charlie and he's getting to be happy, even if it's without Jane, and that him and Charlie being together is all due to Jane....which, ok, fine, they'll give Michael some sort of happy ending but it doesn't excuse how they executed this entire storyline. They still butchered everyone and had to break Michael's heart for it. 

So no, I can't forgive this show for what they've done to Michael and to Rafael. 

Yeah, I too think that Michael will pop up one last time to show that he's okay and maybe with a new relationship. Which will be a slap in the face of who Michael was, because Jane was his everything. Guess that whole loving Jane until he died was cancelled out when he became Jacheal, eh?

[thelegacies87]

Well, Jane is definitely going down the road “terrible final season”. There hasn’t been an episode I loved, and, this whole Michael plot has felt like such a waste of time. What was the point? It wasn’t to please Michael fans since, as a Michael fan, I liked his story better when he was dead(though the show was hit or miss when it came to Jane’s grief, with some moments exceling, others not so much, the hits were so beautiful). Was it to please Raf fans, because it seems more like emotional torture. And it kinda didn’t do wonders for Jane’s character. Plotwise, it made no sense. It was just....bad. While it was great to see Gina and Brett’s chemistry again, it was all for....Jane to choose Rafael, instead of the lovely, “Jane choose Michael, he died, and she moved on with Raf in a new, totally different but still beautiful and pure love”. They brought him back to....get dumped?

ANd we didn’t even get any Michael and Rogelio. That’s the most offensive thing. Let Jane dump Michael, just at least give us the bromance. 

I guess, no matter how awful this season has been(and really, how iffy show has been since season 3; the first half with of 3 of married Michael was aimless, second half of dead Michael was...bad, season 4 Adam half, terrible, and the second Raf half being great) you can’t say the acting was damn fine, and well the plotting turned out to be terrible(I guess the whole breakneck plotting really can’t last), the dialogue and whimsy is always charming.

But I think I’ll wait until netflix...again. This season hasn’t been fun. And I don’t like wasting seven episodes one a plot that went no where, especially since I was sooo onboard with Raf and Jane come season 4(THey were partners, ya’ll. Zen Raf, with that curly hair and swoony smile...COME ON!) Just....I think Jane will always be the gift that gave us Gina, and for that I’ll be grateful.  But overall, I'm just kinda insulted by this season.

[bybrandy]

I've never had a real dog in the fight between Michael and Raf.  I watch mostly for the other characters so this was a particularly big yawn for me.

[Simba122504]

I love it when love triangles come to an end forever no matter what side. That shit is dead! Praise the TV Gods! But honestly, this episode was boring as fuck until that ending. This was a new move for the series but nothing happened for nearly all of the goddamn episode! I enjoyed Gina and Brett's final scenes. I felt it. And I enjoyed Brett's acting these past 7 episodes. I've always been team Rafael and I never stopped believing they were endgame. I predicted him saying he can no longer trust her. I mean I get both sides but I like my characters real. Him not running back is real. Michael will be back. This is not Brett's final episode. But he and Jane as a romance is dead. I truly believe Michael will get his happy ending when he returns. Y'all, again this episode was boring. Well, until the end.

On 5/8/2019 at 9:57 PM, natyxg said:

Yeah, I too think that Michael will pop up one last time to show that he's okay and maybe with a new relationship. Which will be a slap in the face of who Michael was, because Jane was his everything. Guess that whole loving Jane until he died was cancelled out when he became Jacheal, eh?

Yes. He's a hybrid now. It no longer applies. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Simba122504
Missing words

[Lebanna]

For a show which once tried to sell the main character as too religious and obsessed with morality to even have sex before marriage, unceremoniously dumping her brain damaged tortured husband who still loves her is... well guess it’s character growth of a sort. Til death do us part, til I get sick of you.

Jane has become way less nice, way less kind, way less thoughtful. Presumably not religious anymore. Totally different character from the beginning. If the early version of character met herself now, she’d probably be horrified.

And I never even cared who she ends up with.

[MajesticMariposa]

From Jennie Urman's interview about the episode. Our answer for a Brogelio moment.

Spoiler

I can't imagine this show ending without getting a Brogelio reunion. Will we get a Michael and Rogelio (Jaime Camil) moment when he returns? 
Urman: [Laughs.] No, it's not really about Michael and Rogelio. It's more about Michael and Jane. Jason wasn't as into Rogelio as Michael was. And we talked about it a lot in the room; we couldn't get to scenes with the two of them without — Jane was in such a precarious emotional place and Rafael is the father of her child and somebody that Rogelio has a real relationship with now. And it didn't feel right for him to be gallivanting off and having just tons of fun with Michael when Jane was so torn and when Rafael's feelings were so raw. ... Michael's changed a bit and I don't know that he's the guy that goes to get mani-pedis with Rogelio anymore.

[CooperTV]

I'm again not going to comment about the ship wars and fandom biases. I'd say this. I'm glad the two most boring episodes are out of the way and that we can finally focus on the main relationships and the female and male leads that have their own storylines.

But I'm glad Jane decided tenth time this season she loves Rafael despite everything. I'm also glad Rafael shut the door to her face. You doesn't get to go on romantic vacation with some person you have feelings for and expect there's no consequences at home about that.

PS: I've seen that comment on Reddit where people suggested Rafael is the one who's supposed to apologize for his behaviour towards Jane at the end. And

LOL.

Edited May 9, 2019 by CooperTV

[MajesticMariposa]

3 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

You doesn't get to go on romantic vacation with some person you have feelings for and expect there's no consequences at home about that.

But it's not like he's a random person. He was her husband. I think she had to be sure about her feelings for him before she could make a commitment. In fact, I think Raf even told her to explore her feelings.

[CooperTV]

2 minutes ago, MajesticMariposa said:

But it's not like he's a random person. He was her husband. I think she had to be sure about her feelings for him before she could make a commitment. In fact, I think Raf even told her to explore her feelings.

It just doesn't matter. So in an year she will suddenly have romantic feelings for another great guy. So what. Noone obligated to take her back and wait on her until she will decide for sure.

[nilyank]

Have not watch this episode yet and it will be chore when I do. However, that interview Jennie Urman?

She is so full of it. Because while Rogelio got closer ro Rafael, it was not anything special like his with Michael. Apart from being Jane's dad, he was Michael's friend  They were friends when Michael was not with Jane (single or with Rafael). He mourned Michael. Finally Michael did nothing wrong when he was shot, got taken from his family, tortured and lost the last four years of his life.

She tries to excuse the fact that maybe this version of Michael wouldn"t be keen on the friendship. But that is a crap as we never got ONE scene of Rogelio and Michael after Michael got his memories back to see if that was true.

Ans not for nothing, the Rogelio that we had all these seasons with his enthusiasm over the people and things that he loved, would have tried to have a relationship  with Michael. And he wouldn't give that up for the likes of Rafael. Maybe Jane but even in this self-centered version of Jane wouldn't ask that of her dad,

It is ridiculous.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing that annoyed me was Jane and Michael saying, "Don't get mad!" You will never prevent someone from getting mad by saying that. If they're already mad, that's not going to make them stop feeling mad.

I felt like the show wanted me to think Jane was being unreasonably upset that there was no wifi, but that is the kind of thing that I think most people would expect to be told about in advance. On top of that, Jane is the mother of a pretty young kid and her own mom just finished cancer treatments. I don't think it's unreasonable for a childless person with healthy family members to want to be told they will be unreachable while they're out of town, let alone a mom who has a relative who was just in the hospital a few days ago.

If that bull was so important that Michael could lose his job, why would Michael waste any time teaching Jane how to lasso and then send her to retrieve the bull? That made absolutely no sense at all. I know it's tv so I am supposed to be willing to suspend my disbelief, but that was just stupid. Did they really need to go to such unbelievable lengths just so Jane could talk to Charlie alone? Ugh.

[Lady Calypso]

35 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I felt like the show wanted me to think Jane was being unreasonably upset that there was no wifi, but that is the kind of thing that I think most people would expect to be told about in advance. On top of that, Jane is the mother of a pretty young kid and her own mom just finished cancer treatments. I don't think it's unreasonable for a childless person with healthy family members to want to be told they will be unreachable while they're out of town, let alone a mom who has a relative who was just in the hospital a few days ago.

It's more ridiculous that they had Michael (MICHAEL!) not realize that she'd need to reach her kid. I know that he's Hybrid Michael, but no way would Michael ever pull that whole thing. Again, contrived drama absolutely sucks. 

[Ms Lark]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, to point out, I absolutely predict that Michael will be back once more to say that he's now with Charlie and he's getting to be happy, even if it's without Jane, and that him and Charlie being together is all due to Jane.

Yep. That was my take, too. So, how many of us knew "Charlie" was a woman from the start? (raises hand) Yeah. They'll bond over chickens. That's the Michael endgame. Although, I thought their feud had something to do with a romance gone bad! Still, no Michael/Rogelio meet-up even. Pfft!

I'll watch to the bitter end for closure (maybe, no promises!), but I'm not invested. I was always Team Michael, anyway. Rafael needs to chill out, stop popping pills, and reassess.  I will always have our lovely Narrator to keep me going. And Abuela!

[gesundheit]

Good lord. Everything this season with Michael/Jane/Rafael has been completely pointless. That was ridiculous.

Thank goodness there are other characters I care about.

[Bouffe]

9 hours ago, Lebanna said:

For a show which once tried to sell the main character as too religious and obsessed with morality to even have sex before marriage, unceremoniously dumping her brain damaged tortured husband who still loves her is... well guess it’s character growth of a sort. Til death do us part, til I get sick of you.

See, I see the whole thing as growth from her religious upbringing. If she had remained constrained by her religion, the way she was in the first couple of seasons, she would have never considered leaving Jason/Michael at all. And she clearly would not have been happy with Hybrid Michael. Anyway, I don't think there is a right or wrong here, it's just the way I see it. 😊

[haje]

Michael functioned purely as a plot device to make Jane/Rafael endgame but they didn't even need to do that because I'm pretty sure people managed to move on and accept that they were going to end up together at the end of the series, even people who don't like them together. Bringing Michael back was so unnecessary and to bring him back like this, someone who was tortured and lost his memories and who missed out on years of his life with people he loved and who loved him, and to have barely any of that trauma addressed is certainly a choice. It's not just the Jane stuff. Michael had relationships with other characters but somehow everyone's just out here acting like Michael was an ex who came back into Jane's life after years of being away. Like, if you were going to bring the dude back from the dead at least write it better instead of this nonsense.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, haje said:

Michael functioned purely as a plot device to make Jane/Rafael endgame but they didn't even need to do that because I'm pretty sure people managed to move on and accept that they were going to end up together at the end of the series, even people who don't like them together. Bringing Michael back was so unnecessary and to bring him back like this, someone who was tortured and lost his memories and who missed out on years of his life with people he loved and who loved him, and to have barely any of that trauma addressed is certainly a choice. It's not just the Jane stuff. Michael had relationships with other characters but somehow everyone's just out here acting like Michael was an ex who came back into Jane's life after years of being away. Like, if you were going to bring the dude back from the dead at least write it better instead of this nonsense.

Exactly. This is why people are mad, not that Jane/Rafael are endgame. It just needed to be written better. 

[Bouffe]

I guess I am in the very minor minority (LOL), but I enjoyed that episode.

The whole "Little Jane on the Prairie" meets "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" vibe had me laughing many times. Seeing Jane embrace this different world and kinda sorta go with the flow was nice. The horse riding bit cracked me up! And the ranchers saying how they had never heard Jason speak for this long before... Too funny.

I am not going to question why the writers did what they did, nor will I talk about fandom favourites and desired endgame. I thought the way Jane told Hybrid Michael about her feelings, and how she saw them moving forward was well done, and well acted on all parts. The Jane meets Charlie bit was a bit forced, and felt quite unecessary, unless there is something there for Hybrid Michael at the end of the season.

I am also not mad at Raphael for not welcoming Jane back with open arms. In fact, I think I would have been pissed if he had. To me his reaction felt very real. I kinda like that, especially given this is a telenovela we are watching!

I LIKED that Alba and Xo were so supportive of Jane while she ponders what was happening in her life. I did NOT like Alba and Xo pushing Jane to go to Montana. It's almost as if they forgot they too have a relationship with Raphael, and have grown to care about him. And then again, I can't see the two women not pushing Jane to explore her feelings. Conflicted about this whole thing, I am.

[natyxg]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Exactly. This is why people are mad, not that Jane/Rafael are endgame. It just needed to be written better. 

I think the Michael thing should not have been written at all. At the end of the day, what change was there for Jane? She was sure that she wanted to be with Rafael before Michael came back... and now she's sure that she wants to be with Rafael. The only change was destroying Michael and Jane retroactively and unnecessarily, which is just petty and cruel. I don't know, I guess Michael fans that hated that they died can take comfort now in knowing that he's not dead or something.

[Guest]

I have an appointment to get my eyebrows waxed so I can't write a long post now, but getting my hair ripped out by the root will be more pleasant than this pile of literal horseshit.

Fuck this show. Even dumbass Jachael deserved better. And I thought the last fantasy was supposed to communicate Raf would eventually recover if Jane chose Jachael???

[gesundheit]

My question is: why was Rafael so broken up about Michael being alive and feeling obliged to bring him back if Jane being torn about it makes her a terrible person? I don't blame him for having trouble accepting that he's all of a sudden the one true love of her life/destiny (because frankly that's absurd -- she can have two loves of her life). But the fact that he's been so mean about her having to deal with residual Michael feelings when that's precisely what he anticipated (in fact, I'm pretty sure he anticipated worse) is a bit much.

I miss Zen Rafael. 

Also, Hybrid Michael is pretty lazy storytelling. He has all of his education and life lessons and memories that formed his personality. Yet somehow his 4 years in Montana have given him a full personality transplant (and accent to boot!). Sure, that time would influence him, but once his amnesia was over he'd be more Michael than Jason. And he'd sure as hell want to spend time with Rogelio.

[wonderwoman]

my issue with this episode has less to do with the jane/raf/michael triangle and its evolving, inevitable resolution — jane and raf have always been the endgame  — than with its singular focus on jane and michael. for me, the power of this show has always been how the multi-generational characters play off of each other. virtually an entire (and largely predictable) episode with just jane and michael bored the living shit out of me. 

much as i like jane and raf together, i want to see how things turn out for everyone else. so i’m in ‘til the end.

[tennisgurl]

So when the narrator said that Michael would love Jane "until the day he died" does that mean until his first death? Because he still loves Jane now, so does that mean that Michael never gets over Jane, and he will just be alone in Montana dealing with his brain damage and being tortured knowing his wife doesent love him anymore? 

Or will they say it was just until his first death, and he will show up in the finale married to Charlie, and be all "yeah I am totally fine no worries Jane, go ahead and be with Raf, no worries here!"as a bone for the character and his fans? Yeah, it wont make me feel much better. It just sounds like Michael might settle, but will never be over Jane, who totally got over him and hardly cares about him being basically tortured to death.

God that interview 

Spoiler

The answer about how Michael wouldn't get another scene with Rogelio just goes to show how little the show runner and writers care about Michael as a character anymore beyond as a plot device to add more drama to Raf/Jane. How could they think that even saying they hung out offscreen was such an impossibility? How could they say that its just about him and Jane, like he just moved about a separation, and didnt freaking die! Rogelio wasnt just his father in law, he was his friend, even when he and Jane weren't together, I cant buy that any version of Michael wouldn't want to spend time with him. And if this Michael would be so keen on Rogelio, he isnt really the Michael we all know and love, and this is just further character assassination. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by tennisgurl

[gesundheit]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

So when the narrator said that Michael would love Jane "until the day he died" does that mean until his first death? Because he still loves Jane now, so does that mean that Michael never gets over Jane, and he will just be alone in Montana dealing with his brain damage and being tortured knowing his wife doesent love him anymore? 

My guess is they'll spin it with some "he'll always love her, of course! Just like she'll always love him! They're just not in love anymore!" business.

[Lebanna]

2 hours ago, Bouffe said:

See, I see the whole thing as growth from her religious upbringing. If she had remained constrained by her religion, the way she was in the first couple of seasons, she would have never considered leaving Jason/Michael at all. And she clearly would not have been happy with Hybrid Michael. Anyway, I don't think there is a right or wrong here, it's just the way I see it. 😊

Yes, I actually agree with you. But I thought that the growth and understanding was going to be Jane learning that life is so much more complicated than she ever realized. Not becoming... well, basically kind of self-centered and lazy, and giving up on people she supposedly loved without ever even really trying. 

She’s grown into a character that I really don’t like. And as I say, I could give a crap whether she ends up with Michael or Rafael. This show for me was about Jane. And that show is over.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Lebanna

[natyxg]

25 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

My guess is they'll spin it with some "he'll always love her, of course! Just like she'll always love him! They're just not in love anymore!" business.

My guess is that they don't even remember that the narrator said that, so it won't be addressed at all.

[bybrandy]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's more ridiculous that they had Michael (MICHAEL!) not realize that she'd need to reach her kid. I know that he's Hybrid Michael, but no way would Michael ever pull that whole thing. Again, contrived drama absolutely sucks. 

YES!!!   This.   Like I said above I don't really are about the triangle but Michael is a character I very much cared about and there is no way on earth that a Michael that had a single memory back wouldn't know that Jane had to be able to contact both Mateo and Xo.    

3 hours ago, gesundheit said:

But the fact that he's been so mean about her having to deal with residual Michael feelings when that's precisely what he anticipated (in fact, I'm pretty sure he anticipated worse) is a bit much.

I think lots of times there can be a pretty big difference between what we know intellectually and what we feel emotionally.  Raf has lost Jane to Michael on more than one occasion and he's putting up walls to spare himself when it happens again.  I get that.  It isnt' terribly attractive but I get it.  Also Jane hasn't helped this much at all.  If she's put the brakes on everything when Michael first came back but she kept telling Raf that everything was fine and then taking it back.  Jane gets to explore this and see how it comes out.  But it doesn't make it less painful for Raf to watch.

[gesundheit]

4 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

I think lots of times there can be a pretty big difference between what we know intellectually and what we feel emotionally.  Raf has lost Jane to Michael on more than one occasion and he's putting up walls to spare himself when it happens again.  I get that.  It isnt' terribly attractive but I get it.  Also Jane hasn't helped this much at all.  If she's put the brakes on everything when Michael first came back but she kept telling Raf that everything was fine and then taking it back.  Jane gets to explore this and see how it comes out.  But it doesn't make it less painful for Raf to watch.

I agree with this 100% in terms of real life, but the writers are choosing what to show us here. The contrast between Raf's lashing out and Michael's "I just want you to be happy" is stark. If we saw more of Rafael's vulnerability (not in front of Jane, but just on the show) and less of the anger and disgust, it would be helpful.

The total dismissal of Michael's former relationship with and love for Mateo is also irritating to me. I just don't know what the point of this was. I've often been grumpy with this show but held on because the writers tend to pull it off in the end and impress me, but this has just been a full season of frustration. In this storyline. If Jane could just be Single Jane for a while and participate in other characters' stories I'd be okay, but the previews suggest quite otherwise.

And as for Brogelio, I just... Rogelio's child is named after Michael and they still didn't get a five-second reunion scene? Come on.

[Snapdragon]

19 hours ago, MajesticMariposa said:

It seems like the show is pushing the idea that she and Raf need to be together because he's Mateo's dad, but that doesn't make sense because of the twins--who everyone forgets about, constantly. Jane didn't even factor them into her vision when she fantasized about asking Raf to move to MT or whatever.

This x1000!  Jane has been acting as if Michael coming back is a threat to the perfect little family she's built with Rafael, which is complete BS because it's never been just her and Raf with Mateo.  Petra and the twins are just as much part of their family since, you know, the twins are also Raf's children!  Gah!  The show is ridiculous when it comes to this fact.  We never see Raf alone with his three children, or Jane and Raf taking the three kids anywhere together.  What's even more annoying is that when Petra and Raf got back together, Jane was freaking out about her and Mateo being left out in the cold but now that the shoe's on the other foot?  Screw you, other kids and baby mama!

[funnygirl]

Jane's choice had nothing to do with Mateo or the family unit or feeling pressured into choosing Rafael, hence her visions of what life would be like with Michael. Mateo was happy, Rafael was good, and in those visions Jane had everything "perfect" but ultimately a life with Michael is no longer what she wants. 

She wants to be with Rafael because she loves Rafael. She was very clear on that. All the cards have been laid on the table, and Jane wants Rafael. 

Love triangles are exhausting and I'm glad this has been resolved. I wish all these characters well. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by funnygirl

[bybrandy]

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

If we saw more of Rafael's vulnerability (not in front of Jane, but just on the show) and less of the anger and disgust, it would be helpful.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that.  

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

The total dismissal of Michael's former relationship with and love for Mateo is also irritating to me.

This honesty bothers me more than missing out on Michael and Rogelio bonding and that bothers me a lot!   I think I can fanwank it that they don't want to get Mateo attatched to Michael if Michael isn't going to stick around but the lack of interest in Mateo from Michael just rings so, so, so, so, so, so false to me.   I'd like to see more curiosity from Mateo about Michael, too.  But that is easier to write off to limited time with the child actors and limited range.  But seriously, I felt like Michael wasn't even curios about how Mateo was turning out and that seems really, really off.

 

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

And as for Brogelio, I just... Rogelio's child is named after Michael and they still didn't get a five-second reunion scene? Come on.

Like Michael would really, really care about how Rogelio was doing with Xo's cancer treatment and aftermath... among other things.  And while the less Baby the better for me I really did want a scene of Rogelio showing off Baby to Michael... or showing off Michael to Baby which might be more keeping with Rogelio.   

[bybrandy]

I don't feel at all like the show is pushing Jane/Raf because of Mateo.  I did think it implausible that Michael didn't KNOW that Jane couldn't really move to Montana because of Mateo and Raf.   And Jane's bizarre fantasy where she asks Raf to move to Montana (which yes even she knew was bizarre) bugged me because it was so dismissive of Petra's kids... which really this show is in general but it was just so cringey to me.   

[thelegacies87]

I just don't get how, whoever you're fan of, couldn't see this story as a waste of time. I'd much rather Jane and Raf get married in episode one and like a time jump or something to Jane being famous and dealing with like pre-teen Mateo, Jane's career and a realistic marriage(what happens when that juicy drama is gone?). Why did this story happen? What was gained? All I could think is of what we lost, which was a lot. 

IMO, this story disrespected fans from both sides, it made Jane come off worse, it regressed Raf, gave us weird Michael, made us want for something(the bromance) and not give it, and reset Jane and Raf back to zero. Worst, it's tarnished rewatches.

Heck we haven't touched on Jane's career all season.

This is going up their as a terrible final season 

[BAH]

“Weird Michael” lol. @thelegacies87 your plot ideas intrigue me.  Alas, we will never know.  

I feel better today than I did yesterday; I am assimilating the “new normal” lol.   I still don’t know if I will watch next Wednesday. 

Many people on forums hate the Rose mystery; for me, it’s now frankly the only thing I would care about.  Also, I would enjoy those adorable twins! 

[mrsbagnet]

I honestly have no issue with not seeing Raf spending time with the twins bc they seem to be doing fine without his influence. Petra is a highly competent parent, and the twins seem to be doing a lot better than Mateo, both intellectually and behaviorally. I don't mean to be dismissive of his role as a father. He should spend time with them, and I presume that he does off-camera. I just kind of think of Petra and the twins as a unit, and Rafael has his head so far up Jane's ass that I don't include him when I think of Petra's family.

Edited May 9, 2019 by mrsbagnet

[natyxg]

So, I watched it.

They just keep doing everything SO. VERY. WRONG.

Augh.

We get an entire episode of Jane and Michael being so adorable that I kind of ended up shipping them again. I do agree with whoever said that Michael was Michael most of his life and "Jason" only four years, so it's weird that they basically are telling us that Michael's true essence is Jason or something, with his looove for the outdoors and the quiet and whatever, after we saw that Michael's true nature was to be a detective, for example. He really had that in his blood, it wasn't just a job. Still, I appreciate that he felt like Michael in the ways that mattered, in his love for Jane, his patience (for the most part), his kindness....

And after a whole episode of seeing them together again and seeing that chemistry again, bam. Jane realizes that she wants Rafael. Now, again, I always knew that's what the answer would be. But the way that they did it is just... weird. Maybe they were going for one reversal after another, so we go from Jane hating Montana and wanting to get out of there to Jane enjoying herself to Jane freaking out again, to Jane imagining a life with Michael to Jane choosing Rafael, but it was just... odd and off putting. I think what was missing from all of this is the WHY. Why is she in love with Rafael again? How did she fall in love with Rafael? Why is he her destiny and not Michael? Maybe they expect me to remember the show more than I do or something, and this has been addressed in a convincing way before and I've just forgotten (doubt it, though), but it was really need here too, even if it was addressed before. If Michael is so great, but she still chooses Rafael you gotta tell me why. This vague "we changed our time has passed" bullshit isn't enough.

And in the end, we continue with the same problem that I've been mentioning from the beginning of all this. Rafael, who is supposed to be the endgame man in all this, just broods. He suffers for himself, because he fears that he's not going to get the life that he wanted. He needs antidepressants and can barely get out of bed. Jane is faced with an unexpected, confusing situation that is not her fault in any way, and instead of support from her partner she gets his tantrums. Maybe it is realistic for him to be like this or something, but in a romance story it's quite off putting. And then we have Michael, the "not the one". Jane was his wife. His life was stolen from him in a terrible way. He could've demanded. He could've shouted. He could've been jealous when he found out about Rafael and Jane. He could've been angry. He could've used guilt to get Jane to stay. But he wasn't. But he didn't.  While it's implied that Rafael would NOT be willing to move to Montana for Jane, Michael was willing to follow her anywhere. And in the end he was willing to let her go without a fight and without her feeling bad about it, because he just wanted her to be happy.

But I'm supposed to root for Rafael and think HE IS THE ONE FOR JANE. HER DESTINY.

Sure, okay. Were they drunk or something when they wrote all this? Did they forget how romances work? Were they just so interested in pushing the final Jane/Rafael breakup in the last stretch of the show that they just didn't think how it would all come across? WTF? It's just so odd.

Besides all that, I thought they pushed the wilderness angle a little too much. When Jane was freaking out about having no phone I was thinking "don't they have landlines?" So I was glad that they at least pointed out that they did. But then... did they have no bathrooms? Why the hell was she bathing with a bucket outside? And was she really supposed to be peeing in the wilderness when she tried to call her Mom that night? huh? Just so weird.

[UGAmp]

Why? Why did they have to do this? Why bring Michael back? Why bring him back for it to end like this? So. Infuriating. 

I was ready to give up on this show last season. I honestly don’t care about Jane or Rafael as characters at this point. I really only stayed for the secondary characters even though their plots are terrible half the time too. I love Petra.  I love Rogelio. I love Xo. I love Alba. The narrator is honestly my favorite character. I even love Ellie and Anna. You’re doing something wrong show when I don’t care about the main character, her one true love and their spawn (Mateo is also the worst but I blame J&R for that). Then they brought back Michael and sucked me back in for one more season.

And now here we are. I don’t know if I can finish this series out. I’m just that disappointed. 

[Turtle Wexler]

23 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, to point out, I absolutely predict that Michael will be back once more to say that he's now with Charlie and he's getting to be happy, even if it's without Jane, and that him and Charlie being together is all due to Jane....

He's going to send Jane a text/photo during the 10 seconds of cell service he has one day. Uy. 

[cardigirl]

So very disappointed. As much as I enjoy seeing Brett Dier play Michael, this season has not been fun for me. Ah well, it’s only a telenovela, right? 

[Simba122504]

16 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I'm again not going to comment about the ship wars and fandom biases. I'd say this. I'm glad the two most boring episodes are out of the way and that we can finally focus on the main relationships and the female and male leads that have their own storylines.

But I'm glad Jane decided tenth time this season she loves Rafael despite everything. I'm also glad Rafael shut the door to her face. You doesn't get to go on romantic vacation with some person you have feelings for and expect there's no consequences at home about that.

PS: I've seen that comment on Reddit where people suggested Rafael is the one who's supposed to apologize for his behaviour towards Jane at the end. And

LOL.

And most importantly. Jane made her choice alone. Not because of Alba, Xo, Rogelio, Petra, Rafael, Michael, Mateo, Bo, Bobby, Ricky or Mike. Not guilt either. Mateo hating her or Rafael going down the rabbit hole. Mateo was going to be fine. Rafael was going to be healthy. Continuing to work on his mental health. But even with all of that, Jane wasn't going to be happy because she wants to be with the man she loves so much. Nobody can say the series let others make Jane's choice. Jane made her own choice. This is what she wants.