Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[starri]

So, I spent the afternoon curled up in bed watching on Disney+.  I was kind of wondering if divorced from the excitement of seeing it in the theater would make the flaws outweigh the good stuff.  It didn't, though.  

The biggest kick came when I noticed that when the Falcon shows up at Exegol, flying right next to her is the Ghost from Rebels.  Would it have killed them to at least have had Hera's voice over the radio?

[Perfect Xero]

17 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the creative decisions for this trilogy were made - why not have one overall vision? Why give it to different directors and writers, but then overrule them in certain areas?

I imagine there was a desire to let as many creative people contribute as possible, but I don't see how that could ever have turned out better than a singular vision and coherent narrative. Then again, the prequels were a singular vision and cohesive narrative, and they were terrible.

They should have told Abrams that if he writes one movie, he writes all three, even if he doesn't direct them. Or they should have had him, Johnson and Trevorrow sit down and write the trilogy together.

 

JJ did write rough drafts for 8 and 9, according to Daisy Ridley.

Johnson just threw the 8 script out and rewrote the whole thing, apparently using almost nothing from JJ's script.

[VCRTracking]

8 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

 

JJ did write rough drafts for 8 and 9, according to Daisy Ridley.

Johnson just threw the 8 script out and rewrote the whole thing, apparently using almost nothing from JJ's script.

Yeah I don't buy that. Recently JJ said Kathleen Kennedy early on asked him if would also helm 8 and 9 but he said no and I can't fault his reasoning: 

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-jj-abrams-director-kathleen-kennedy/

JJ's response shows how ridiculous the idea of him having also written drafts of 8 and 9 is. When would he have the time? He went from preproduction casting and co-writing the TFA script with Lawrence Kasdan(which had many drafts), filming it for months all over the world including reshoots and editing and overseeing sound and special effects in post-production, all within just two and a half years. There's just no logistical way JJ could write one draft, much less two while doing all that, especially since he wasn't even going to direct them! That would be impossible for any director. Not saying Daisy is lying, just mistaken.

Edited May 5, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

15 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Yeah I don't buy that. Recently JJ said Kathleen Kennedy early on asked him if would also helm 8 and 9 but he said no and I can't fault his reasoning: 

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-jj-abrams-director-kathleen-kennedy/

JJ's response shows how ridiculous the idea of him having also written drafts of 8 and 9 is. When would he have the time? He went from preproduction casting and co-writing the TFA script with Lawrence Kasdan(which had many drafts), filming it for months all over the world including reshoots and editing and overseeing sound and special effects in post-production, all within just two and a half years. There's just no logistical way JJ could write one draft, much less two while doing all that, especially since he wasn't even going to direct them! That would be impossible for any director. Not saying Daisy is lying, just mistaken.

I don't think he'd have written them during principal photography on TFA, 

But writing a rough draft script doesn't necessarily take that much time, they're often not much more than fleshed out outlines. and JJ has experience producing scripts quickly for TV. So I can imagine the if he wanted to have a basic structure for the story going forward as he was writing TFA he might have written a couple of rough scripts during the early stages of production on 7 for 8 and 9.

[VCRTracking]

8 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I don't think he'd have written them during principal photography on TFA, 

But writing a rough draft script doesn't necessarily take that much time, they're often not much more than fleshed out outlines. and JJ has experience producing scripts quickly for TV. So I can imagine the if he wanted to have a basic structure for the story going forward as he was writing TFA he might have written a couple of rough scripts during the early stages of production on 7 for 8 and 9.

An outline sure but rough drafts of two would still take a lot of time just for 20 pages each. You can't just take an hour or two out of a busy schedule and write a screenplay. You need a whole working day. He couldn't have written those without writing TFA first. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan took over for Michael Ardnt who already worked in it for months and was let go because he still needed more time. Abrams and Kasdan spent 6 weeks from late 2013 to early 2014 on just the first draft of TFA. And there were definitely more drafts after that. I just can't imagine JJ working on a movie as anticipated and with such high expectations would take any time away from the important and time consuming process of preproduction. There's casting, selecting crew members, scouting locations, working with the art department to create costumes and creatures, building the sets, going over everything with  ILM, etc. All of that takes just as much focus and concentration as the filming stage. It has to. So much is on the line and every shoot day is expensive. Pretty much every director has said when you're making a movie, starting from when getting hired to the premiere, that movie is all you're thinking about. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, even during down time. 

If it was an outline even those can be subject to change. Original Star Wars producer Gary Kurtz said Lucas early on wrote a basic outline for Episodes 1 to 9.  It pretty much changed when Lucas decided(in a very late draft) to make Vader Luke's father in the second movie! And later when he made Leia Luke's sister. Like right up until filming Poe was meant to die early on in TFA but JJ liked Oscar Isaac's performance so much Poe lived instead. That not changes the rest of the movie but any plan for episodes 8 and 9 if there were anything specific and more detailed than "Rey trains in 8 and defeats Kylo in 9".

I havent heard anything about JJ himself being upset that Rian didn't follow any "plan". Nor any animosity according to JJ's old buddy Greg Grunberg:

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2020/03/greg-grunberg-debunks-the-jj-cut-conspiracy-and-says-rift-between-j-j-abrams-and-rian-johnson-is-something-people-made-up.html

Edited May 6, 2020 by VCRTracking

[katha]

It's always coming back to this for me: This is something the producers and Disney needed to control if there wasn't going to be one director and one set of writers for all movies. If they didn't like what Johnson did, they could nix that. It didn't work out with Trevorrow, it was shelved. The studio is ultimately responsible.  But the thing is TFA was popular and had good reviews, TLJ was polarizing but had good reviews. They're both at over 90 percent at RT, I think?

TROS, the one where they barely took any artistic chances and tried to pander to all and sundry and go lowest common denominator to make everyone happy, sits at rotten with barely 50 percent because it's such a confused, aimless mess.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, katha said:

It's always coming back to this for me: This is something the producers and Disney needed to control if there wasn't going to be one director and one set of writers for all movies. If they didn't like what Johnson did, they could nix that. It didn't work out with Trevorrow, it was shelved. The studio is ultimately responsible.  But the thing is TFA was popular and had good reviews, TLJ was polarizing but had good reviews. They're both at over 90 percent at RT, I think?

TROS, the one where they barely took any artistic chances and tried to pander to all and sundry and go lowest common denominator to make everyone happy, sits at rotten with barely 50 percent because it's such a confused, aimless mess.

The thing is Luke being disillusioned and hiding off bitter in an ancient Jedi temple and a girl seeks him out to train to be a Jedi was Lucas's idea for Episode 7. Disney obviously realized that would be a hard sell after the prequels because they moved it to Episode 8 so the sequels now followed the structure of the original trilogy. They allowed JJ to make a movie first that tried to reassure fans the feel of the fun "classic" Star Wars was back in a virtual remake of A New Hope.

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The thing is Luke being disillusioned and hiding off bitter in an ancient Jedi temple and a girl seeks him out to train to be a Jedi was Lucas's idea for Episode 7. Disney obviously realized that would be a hard sell after the prequels because they moved it to Episode 8 so the sequels now followed the structure of the original trilogy. They allowed JJ to make a movie first that tried to reassure fans the feel of the fun "classic" Star Wars was back in a virtual remake of A New Hope.

Interesting that it was Lucas' idea... and it actually makes complete sense. Because that's exactly what Obi Wan and Yoda did at the end of the prequels. Keep fighting? Resist evil? Nope. Exile it is, apparently.

So fans who moan about how Luke could abdicate his responsibility so selfishly really should acknowledge it's a Jedi trait.

But, as someone who is able to just like things without becoming obsessed with them to the point of mania, I still think the new Star Wars movies are good. There's some stuff I don't like (mainly around the Kylo Ren 'redemption') but for the most part they're fun to watch and exciting. Which is all people should want or expect from a blockbuster, popcorn movie franchise.

[Anduin]

7 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

So fans who moan about how Luke could abdicate his responsibility so selfishly really should acknowledge it's a Jedi trait.

But, as someone who is able to just like things without becoming obsessed with them to the point of mania, I still think the new Star Wars movies are good. There's some stuff I don't like (mainly around the Kylo Ren 'redemption') but for the most part they're fun to watch and exciting. Which is all people should want or expect from a blockbuster, popcorn movie franchise.

It's very Luke, too. He flounces off to sulk in both ANH and ESB. Another planet is entirely in keeping with 'everything bigger than before.'

You can like things without getting obsessed? God, I envy you. I think I have an obsessive kind of personality. 😞

[Perfect Xero]

11 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Interesting that it was Lucas' idea... and it actually makes complete sense. Because that's exactly what Obi Wan and Yoda did at the end of the prequels. Keep fighting? Resist evil? Nope. Exile it is, apparently.

So fans who moan about how Luke could abdicate his responsibility so selfishly really should acknowledge it's a Jedi trait.

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding because the Empire/Sith had completely taken over the Republic and were using their galaxy spanning resources to kill every Jedi they could find, they made an effort at taking down Palpatine that failed, and (as we see with Luke in ESB/Jedi) the presence of a force user Vader or Palpatine can identify only makes it harder for any sort of resistance group to stay hidden. They also told Bail where they were going before they left.

Their going into hiding wasn't selfish, it was practical, it gave the Rebellion the best chance to grow and stay hidden, while allowing them to preserve the Jedi knowledge/teachings to pass on in the future. And they let their ally know where to find them in case he needed their help. Which is how Leia knows where to contact Obi Wan when the Death Star shit hits the fan, and why he's quick to set off to help her when he gets her message.

 

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding because the Empire/Sith had completely taken over the Republic and were using their galaxy spanning resources to kill every Jedi they could find, they made an effort at taking down Palpatine that failed, and (as we see with Luke in ESB/Jedi) the presence of a force user Vader or Palpatine can identify only makes it harder for any sort of resistance group to stay hidden. They also told Bail where they were going before they left.

Their going into hiding wasn't selfish, it was practical, it gave the Rebellion the best chance to grow and stay hidden, while allowing them to preserve the Jedi knowledge/teachings to pass on in the future. And they let their ally know where to find them in case he needed their help. Which is how Leia knows where to contact Obi Wan when the Death Star shit hits the fan, and why he's quick to set off to help her when he gets her message.

 

Luke does something similar. His attempt at resolving a problem made it worse. So he took himself away where he couldn't cause any more trouble. And it was a typical Luke flounce and sulk. Works on multiple levels.

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding because the Empire/Sith had completely taken over the Republic and were using their galaxy spanning resources to kill every Jedi they could find, they made an effort at taking down Palpatine that failed, and (as we see with Luke in ESB/Jedi) the presence of a force user Vader or Palpatine can identify only makes it harder for any sort of resistance group to stay hidden. They also told Bail where they were going before they left.

Their going into hiding wasn't selfish, it was practical, it gave the Rebellion the best chance to grow and stay hidden, while allowing them to preserve the Jedi knowledge/teachings to pass on in the future. And they let their ally know where to find them in case he needed their help. Which is how Leia knows where to contact Obi Wan when the Death Star shit hits the fan, and why he's quick to set off to help her when he gets her message.

 

They were putting all their hope into a kid killing his own father and then killing his more powerful boss. It was a desperate longshot of a plan. Even Yoda had doubts. In any case Lucas had jaded and disillusioned old Luke in the first sequel movie.

https://medium.com/@Oozer3993/george-lucas-episode-vii-c272563cc3ba

We don't know the specifics but it definitely wasn't because of some selfless heroic master plan to save the galaxy. He was just DONE with everything.

The concept art approved by Lucas says it all:

 

The rest of the movie was him getting his mojo back thanks to a young girl who comes to him for help. A bummer of a return to his character but as the movie LOGAN and the series PICARD demonstrated it could have worked. It shows the reality of old age and regretting past mistakes and that even heroes are fallable. Instead they have a whole movie where he's missing but characters speak about him in such reverent awestruck tones it makes him seem godlike instead of human. Where his legend is built up so much for the audience it would be disappointing if he didn't turn out to be anything less than the greatest most powerful Jedi who ever lived! 

[VCRTracking]

 

 

[Ravenya003]

In the wake of current events:

John Boyega is doing what Star Wars wouldn't...

Discusses how Finn's race is treated as incidental to his storyline, his gradual sidelining, and the fact they got cold feet on any potential Rey/Finn romance. 

[Anduin]

30 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

In the wake of current events:

John Boyega is doing what Star Wars wouldn't...

Discusses how Finn's race is treated as incidental to his storyline, his gradual sidelining, and the fact they got cold feet on any potential Rey/Finn romance. 

Serious question. Should it have been a factor? I mean, in a universe full of every kind of weird alien you can think of, I don't imagine skin colour being a factor if that person over there is the same species. That's how I see space opera. Easy for me to say, I'm a white man in a country dominated by same.

I mean, sure, go for some kind of metaphorical thing, like you often see with orks in Shadowrun. That was Lucas' approach. OTOH, if it is metaphorical, some people will either ignore or misinterpret it. Hell, I probably would.

I honestly don't know what to think, and would appreciate a pointer in the right direction.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Ravenya003 said:

In the wake of current events:

John Boyega is doing what Star Wars wouldn't...

Discusses how Finn's race is treated as incidental to his storyline, his gradual sidelining, and the fact they got cold feet on any potential Rey/Finn romance. 

Hell yes. I always said Finn deserved a better storyline in Rise of Skywalker and it should have been him and Rey and not that fucking Reylo shitshow.

John Boyega's powerful, passionate speech at the BLM rally in Hyde Park showed just how wasted Finn was. I hope Boyega gets the roles he deserves in other movies.

[VCRTracking]

Its still weird that they didn't go ahead with Finn leading a Stormtrooper uprising that was in Trevorrow's script. We all thought that was where his arc was heading.

[ursula]

7 hours ago, Anduin said:

Serious question. Should it have been a factor?

No one’s arguing John’s race should have been a factor to how Finn was portrayed, we’re arguing that it shouldn’t have been - but it was. His race was a factor and it made his character and the ST as a whole poorer for it.

 

He went from the co-lead in TFA (‘sanitation’ joke aside) to a supporting character who served mostly comic relief. In TLJ, he could be described as the supporting character to a supporting character (Rose) and put in a side story that was not only offensive to Finn the character (Rose needing to Republic-splain to a child soldier that slavery and exploitation is wrong) but unanimously considered the boring and irrelevant plot of the movie. And that’s before we touch on the offensive false advertising of the trilogy that presented Finn as a Jedi than baited and switched that.

People have been calling out the racist writing of Finn for years. And John Boyega has been dealing with racists for even longer. A few weeks ago, he was attacked on twitter for tweeting ‘I hate racists’. Now everyone wants in on the hot new trend called BLM, Finn is getting scrutiny from more people and Disney etc are scrambling to show they’ve been ‘woke’ all along. 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by ursula

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

 (Rose needing to Republic-splain to a child soldier that slavery and exploitation is wrong) 

 

That never happened in the movie.

My hope is that revealing Finn is Force sensitive in TROS was because they're planning future stories of him as a Jedi.

Edited June 6, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Its still weird that they didn't go ahead with Finn leading a Stormtrooper uprising that was in Trevorrow's script. We all thought that was where his arc was heading.

Godammit that would have been awesome. We really were robbed.

[Ravenya003]

17 hours ago, Anduin said:

Serious question. Should it have been a factor? I mean, in a universe full of every kind of weird alien you can think of, I don't imagine skin colour being a factor if that person over there is the same species. That's how I see space opera. Easy for me to say, I'm a white man in a country dominated by same.

It's difficult to put into words, but there are two ways to look at any given story: from a Watsonian point-of-view (that is, from within the story itself: discussing character motivation, plot development, etc) or Doylistically (from without the story, taking into account the context the writers are working in: why they made certain narrative choices, the existence of themes, symbolism, etc). 

For instance, let's say you see two same-sex characters on television hold hands under a rainbow. From a Watsonian point of view, it's just two characters who (for whatever reason) decide to hold hands after the rain. The characters don't know what the future holds. But from a Doylistic point of view, audiences can safely assume that the writers are trying to convey something about their relationship by positioning them under the universal symbol of the gay rights movement.  It would likely be foreshadowing for the fact they'll eventually fall in love. 

In Finn's case, from a Watsonian POV, obviously his skin colour is largely irrelevant in the context of the galaxy in which he lives. As far as I know, there's no racism in the Republic. But from a Doylistic POV, the fact that a Black man is playing this character inevitably brings connotations to the story, whether the writers like it or not. As the article points out:

In The Force Awakens, Finn seizes his freedom from the First Order by escaping from the clutches of Kylo Ren with Poe Dameron. He discovers an identity by discarding the white stormtrooper helmet that erased his skin color and dropping his slave name, FN-2187, to become “Finn.” When Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Finn capture Captain Phasma — Finn’s former commanding officer and master — he taunts her with the phrase, “I’m in charge now,” which expresses his embodiment of Black resistance.

People could saying that the article's writer is reaching, or that this would have all played out the same way with a white actor in the role, but with John Boyega as Finn, that reading of the text exists whether JJ Abrams is aware of it or not. 

It's clear that he didn't, and we're left with a trilogy that decided to jettison the possibility of Finn leading a Stormtrooper (that is, slave) uprising in favour of yet another story about why we should all feel sorry for violent white men who murder people. Along with the bait-and-switch of the first TFA posters, and Finn's gradual sidelining into less important subplots, there's stuff like the fact that Kylo beating Finn into a coma at the end of TFA is barely a factor in the following two films; instead the tiny little scratch on Kylo's face is given huge thematic weight, while the inevitable existence of a serious wound on Finn's back is completely ignored. And the fact that Disney was clearly more comfortable in Rey kissing a space fascist that spend most of his screen-time assaulting her over the Black guy who genuinely loved and respected her speaks volumes. The optics, Doylistically speaking, are Not Good.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Ravenya003

[Anduin]

Thank you, Ravenya003. That makes a lot of sense. I really do appreciate it.

Quote

There's stuff like the fact that Kylo beating Finn into a coma at the end of TFA is barely a factor in the following two films; instead the tiny little scratch on Kylo's face is given huge thematic weight, while the inevitable existence of a serious wound on Finn's back is completely ignored.

Yeah. I've thought for a while it'd be cool to see Finn's new cybernetic spine. He changes clothes a couple of times, they could have worked it in. Ah well.

[ursula]

18 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

That never happened in the movie.

What significance you put on it is definitely down to your personal belief system but that it did happen - Rose explaining slavery to Finn in TLJ - is a fact, and not a matter to debate. 

@Anduin you might want to read this to get a better idea of all the problems with Finn's portrayal in TLJ.

http://www.scavengersholocron.com/category/home/why-the-last-jedi-isnt-just-bad-its-toxic/

The article goes through everything wrong with TLJ but these are the Finn highlights:

 

Not to mention, it’s Rose who ultimately has to teach Finn about the seedy belly of Canto Bight and how it operates: through slave labor. Another character shouldn’t have to explain to Finn, of all characters, the tortures and ills of slavery. After all, that’s the only life Finn’s known, taken as his family and raised in a life of servitude as a Stormtrooper to the First Order.

This becomes Finn’s character throughout the rest of the film. Brash, impulsive, and worse, being frequently portrayed as the butt of everyone’s jokes. When we first see Finn, he is wandering about the halls of the Resistance in nothing but a bacta suit, as if Finn has suddenly forgotten how to care for himself. The film plays into the stereotypes that many people have about black male individuals. Instead of being treated as the hero of the Resistance, Finn is relegated to a comedic side role based on slapstick humor and unfunny comedy that ultimately doesn’t contribute anything to the plot.

In other words, Finn’s side plot reflects the film’s stance of diversity: we’ll wave it in your face for a few minutes before we wave it aside to make way for the two white protagonists. It’s a bold statement, but not untrue. Rian Johnson first joked that it would be “funny” to leave Finn in a coma for the entire film: “We did at some point joke that it would be great to just have him be in a coma for the whole movie and keep cutting back to him.” He explains that each of these cuts back to Finn would have him uttering some nonsense in his unconscious state, and at no point in the entire run time of the movie would the former Stormtrooper wake up. 

When John Boyega first accepted the role of Finn, JJ Abrams told him that he was going to be the new star of Star Wars. Rian Johnson blatantly admitted that it would be “funny” to simply delegate the black lead to the sidelines, where he doesn’t have more than a few scenes of incoherent babbling to serve as comic relief.

 

[Spartan Girl]

Finn still had some good moments in TLJ: the part where he fights Captain Phasma and declares himself to be "rebel scum" is awesome.

In the end, for all his talk about Finn being "the lead guy" in TFA, JJ STILL sidelined him for Bitch Boy in the end.

[VCRTracking]

Rose doesn't explain slavery to Finn. There's not one line of dialogue where she has to tell him slavery is bad because he doesn't get it. Finn never even heard of Canto Bight before so how would he know how it operates? He never heard of Maz Kanata in The Force Awakens either, even though apparantly her place is one of the most popular hangout spots in the galaxy! Ditto the Pasaana festival. Also Rian would have made that joke if it had been any character in a coma, Rey, Poe, whoever. 

Finn's arc in TLJ was to get him to only caring about Rey to also caring about the Resistance and fighting for the galaxy.

20 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Finn still had some good moments in TLJ: the part where he fights Captain Phasma and declares himself to be "rebel scum" is awesome.

In the end, for all his talk about Finn being "the lead guy" in TFA, JJ STILL sidelined him for Bitch Boy in the end.

I was disappointed at first that he still seemed so hung up on Rey but thinking about it he was never going to stop caring about her. Rey cares for him too except she's not shown  yelling his name all the damn time.

The problem with Finn is they wrote a character for someone like Shia LeBouf or Jay Baruschel would play. The typical hapless white guy in way over his head. Someone like Luke who would be a hero in the end of his arc but has to start out as a dork. Then they cast John not realizing the unfortunate implications of a black man who was raised a child soldier that's also comic relief, whose job was a janitor and who is friend zoned by the heroine.

Edited June 7, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 6/6/2020 at 12:40 PM, ursula said:

He went from the co-lead in TFA (‘sanitation’ joke aside) to a supporting character who served mostly comic relief. In TLJ, he could be described as the supporting character to a supporting character (Rose) and put in a side story that was not only offensive to Finn the character (Rose needing to Republic-splain to a child soldier that slavery and exploitation is wrong) but unanimously considered the boring and irrelevant plot of the movie. And that’s before we touch on the offensive false advertising of the trilogy that presented Finn as a Jedi than baited and switched that.

Puts a bit of a different wrinkle into things, since Kelly Marie Tran has faced her own share of racism and bullying, to the point that she deleted her Twitter account because of the stress. Maybe that's beside the point due to the current real world situation, and yet. I wonder how many of the people who want(ed) Rey and Finn together as a couple singled out Tran because they saw Rose as an interloper.

When Rose and Finn first meet, he was trying to go AWOL so he could find Rey. She didn't know that at first, and I'd argue she was a bit star-struck because he was seen as a hero of the resistance. When she realizes he's trying to desert, if only so he can inform Rey about what's happening, she saw him in a much different (and less flattering) light. It's not like she set out to "educate" him right from the start, she admired him in that way you might a minor celebrity. But she didn't really know him, not the way Rey does.

As for Rey specifically, I don't think it would be terrible if she stays single. It was obvious by the three-way hug that she cares for Finn and Poe very much, and that could just be an okay note to end it on. These movies have always been about family connections, except for maybe Leia and Han, and even they didn't work out in the end. Speaking for myself, I like to think that the three of them went on to find Force sensitives like Finn so they can train them, have adventures together, and build something a lot better than the Empire/First Order/Whatever.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Puts a bit of a different wrinkle into things, since Kelly Marie Tran has faced her own share of racism and bullying, to the point that she deleted her Twitter account because of the stress. Maybe

What happened to Kelly Marie Tran* was disgraceful. And I sincerely doubt anyone who was anti the racism John Boyega faced was party to it. However people rightfully criticized Rose. Rose isn’t a real person. You can analyze Rose’s actions and motivations as nauseum but she’s not a historical character whose decisions we’re supposed to understand and/or forgive. She’s a white man’s invention - a fictional character with fictional motivations and decisions and the character of Rose was definitely problematic.
 

 

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The problem with Finn is they wrote a character for someone like Shia LeBouf or Jay Baruschel would play. The typical hapless white guy in way over his head. Someone like Luke who would be a hero in the end of his arc but has to start out as a dork.

Yeah we kept waiting for Finn to be a hero at the end of his arc. Didn’t happen in TLJ... didn’t happen in ROS so this point is moot. Also ‘hapless white guy’ might have been JJ’s pisspoor excuse in TFA, but Rian was writing for Finn-played-by-John-Boyega so his choice to invoke Tom Foolery tropes and consider Finn being comatose and delusional for the length of the movie was 100% him. 
 

Oh and another thing? ‘Hapless white’ Shia stays being the lead of his movies, no matter how much comic relief he contributes. 

 

It’s also worth pointing out that there was way more media coverage, outrage and support given to KMT than there ever was to John Boyega. These past few days is the first time that Lucasfilm has officially acknowledged his mistreatment. All this while, he’s been fighting this war on his own. Which is why it’s dangerous to lump anti-black racism with all other forms of racism because more often than not, anti-blackness is ignored.

Edited June 7, 2020 by ursula

[VCRTracking]

29 minutes ago, ursula said:

Yeah we kept waiting for Finn to be a hero at the end of his arc. Didn’t happen in TLJ... didn’t happen in ROS so this point is moot. Also ‘hapless white guy’ might have been JJ’s pisspoor excuse in TFA, but Rian was writing for Finn-played-by-John-Boyega so his choice to invoke Tom Foolery tropes and consider Finn being comatose and delusional for the length of the movie was 100% him. 

He was joking. He would have joked about any of the characters were left in a coma. He was never going to do it. As for the comic bits like Finn lying to strangers and physical comedy Johnson was also continuing the established characterization from the previous movie like Poe trolling the bad guys before developing them into more serious arcs. There's no tomfoolery from Finn when they get to the Supremacy ship. 

29 minutes ago, ursula said:

Oh and another thing? ‘Hapless white’ Shia stays being the lead of his movies, no matter how much comic relief he contributes.

Well if Michael Bay didn't film Megan Fox like a piece of meat people would realize she's the better character and SHOULD be the main character. The reason Finn being funny wasn't a problem in TFA was starting from the first trailer it seemed he was the protagonist. Once that lightsaber flew into Rey's hand though it became clear SHES the hero, not Finn so instead of being a funny main character to people at the start of TLJ he's just a sidekick. His whole arc from then on was getting him away from being connected to Rey and being a hero for himself. Finn does have hero moments in both TLJ and TROS but since he's not the lead they're overlooked. 

The whole "Rose had to teach Finn about child slavery" from that article is just wrong. She never does in any dialogue and if that's why fans don't like her they're mistaken. 

 

[ursula]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Once that lightsaber flew into Rey's hand though it became clear SHES the hero, not Finn

Yeah that would make sense if Han and Leia weren’t heroic and important main characters in the OT and Padme in the PT without swinging lightsabers. 

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

He was joking.

Yeah, jokes about keeping the black lead comatose and spouting gibberish for the entire movie are sooo funny.

For context, Han was in carbonite at the end of ESB and Ford wanted him to be killed off. But George Lucas never ‘joked’ about keeping him frozen for the whole movie.

If anyone remembers any franchise where the director ‘joked’ about keeping the white male lead insensate and delusional for a whole movie, please share.

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Well if Michael Bay didn't film Megan Fox like a piece of meat people would realize she's the better character and SHOULD be the main character.

All this means is even when there is a better character than the white male comic relief ... he still gets to be the goofy main character, as opposed to the goofy sidekick. 🤷‍♀️
 

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The whole "Rose had to teach Finn about child slavery" from that article is just wrong. She never does in any dialogue

This is semantics. The intent was clear, which is why everyone calls it for what it was. What weight you attribute to it is dependent on your personal belief system, but the actual event isn’t up for debate and I’m done with arguing about whether it happened or not.

Edited June 8, 2020 by ursula

[VCRTracking]

Well back on the subject of TROS:

 

 

 

 

[Zuleikha]

Rose doesn't explain slavery to Finn. There's not one line of dialogue where she has to tell him slavery is bad because he doesn't get it.

That is true. But she does have to tell him that the child slavery exists and that the First Order is bad and does bad things and that's why Canto Bight is bad.

It was bad writing for the character. It still makes me angry. Finn was a stolen child solider who broke his brainwashed programming and left the First Order because he saw the evil. He didn't freaking need Rose to explain the evils to him.

I thought JJ tried to bring the character back to where he should always have been, though, in TROS. Finn's scenes with Jannah where they bonded over their rebellion were so powerful. It's why I can't get on the Rose deserved better train. Rose was a poorly written, poorly conceived character whose sole purpose was to give Finn someone to talk to during a horribly written story line. Jannah was an excellent character who enriched Finn's character. 

And even though I wish we'd gotten Finn leading a Stormtrooper rebellion, Finn was key to events in TROS, including the final defeat of the First Order on Exogol. He wasn't sidelined in TROS. IMHO, the main problems with the character come from Johnson, who clearly didn't know what to do with Abrams' story or main characters. It's not like the storyline for Rey was good in TLJ either!

[Perfect Xero]

Finn leads a Stormtrooper revolt would have been a good story for his character. I certainly understand why people would have liked to have seen it, if Disney had inexplicably called me for advice on how to plot Ep IX, it's probably the exact story I'd have suggested for Finn because it seemed like the obvious path for his character after TFA.

JJ went with a story that Finn wasn't the only one to leave TFO, he wasn't alone, he had a family of other troopers who also walked away because they, like Finn, had listened to the Force telling them that what they were doing was wrong. Instead of fiery speeches inspiring them, it was about the idea that you can choose to be a good person on your own no matter what circumstances you grow up in. It's also the clearest example in the film of the idea that The Force isn't just for a select few, not just the powerful "bloodlines"  or even just the Jedi and the Sith who move things with their minds. It's for normal people and storm troopers too. I think it was very powerful in its own way to see Finn come to peace with who he is and his history by finding that shared bond with his people.

While I understand why people who didn't like TLJ might not like the direction they went with Finn and the troopers in Rise, I find it a bit odd that many of the same people who I saw around the web praising TLJ/Rian for subverting expectations and making the force "for everyone", are apparently quite upset that JJ didn't go with the obvious story where Finn gives the stormtroopers an inspiring speech and they all switch sides, and instead made his story about how the Force is there for people who aren't powerful Jedi from famous Jedi and Sith families.

[VCRTracking]

On 6/9/2020 at 1:38 AM, Zuleikha said:

 

That is true. But she does have to tell him that the child slavery exists and that the First Order is bad and does bad things and that's why Canto Bight is bad.

It was bad writing for the character. It still makes me angry. Finn was a stolen child solider who broke his brainwashed programming and left the First Order because he saw the evil. He didn't freaking need Rose to explain the evils to him.

He saw the evil but still wasn't ready to join the fight against them. He had gone from running away to caring about Rey and willing to risk his life for her. That was just his first step. If Rey decided to stay on Jakku instead of being part of the Resistance he would have gone with her. He would have gone to Crait with her too if he hadn't been injured. That's where JJ left the character in TFA.

I get Rose seeming to lecture Finn rubbed people the wrong way but she was speaking firsthand as a victim of the First Order. She wasn't someone pretending to have the moral high ground because she had a semester or two at college.

Finn's src in TLJ is a combination of both Luke's and Han's which means he's callow like Luke but also not looking to get involved in the struggle like Han. In Empire both characters were lectured, Luke by Yoda, Han by Leia. Rose isn't a 900 year old Jedi nor a princess so her doing it seems insulting to Finn's character. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

He saw the evil but still wasn't ready to join the fight against them. He had gone from running away to caring about Rey and willing to risk his life for her. That was just his first step. If Rey decided to stay on Jakku instead of being part of the Resistance he would have gone with her. He would have gone to Crait with her too if he hadn't been injured. That's where JJ left the character in TFA.

I get Rose seeming to lecture Finn rubbed people the wrong way but she was speaking firsthand as a victim of the First Order. She wasn't someone pretending to have the moral high ground because she had a semester or two at college.

Finn's src in TLJ is a combination of both Luke's and Han's which means he's callow like Luke but also not looking to get involved in the struggle like Han. In Empire both characters were lectured, Luke by Yoda, Han by Leia. Rose isn't a 900 year old Jedi nor a princess so her doing it seems insulting to Finn's character. 

Going to respond in the Saga thread

[VCRTracking]

 

 

[ursula]

OMG, would Chewie be able to look Kylo in the eye? 

Not the other way around? 

🤯🤯🤯

The way the entire logic of TFA was warped to centre Kylo is outstanding. 

 

[Jediknight]

Daisy Ridley mentioned on Jimmy Kimmel that an early idea was that Rey would be a Kenobi.

We could have gotten a Kenobi saving Anakin's grandson from the Dark Side, and the influence of Palpatine.  After Palpatine tore the Anakin and Obi-Wan brotherhood apart, we could have gotten their grandchildren uniting to take down Palpatine.  That would have been better than Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter.

[Ziggy]

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Daisy Ridley mentioned on Jimmy Kimmel that an early idea was that Rey would be a Kenobi.

We could have gotten a Kenobi saving Anakin's grandson from the Dark Side, and the influence of Palpatine.  After Palpatine tore the Anakin and Obi-Wan brotherhood apart, we could have gotten their grandchildren uniting to take down Palpatine.  That would have been better than Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter.

That's what I was hoping for.

[Anela]

I finally watched this on Disney+. Baba Frik is cute, and I liked everyone coming together to help at the end. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, I've just watched it here and there, since I was a kid. I liked Keri Russell's character, and noticed the guy from LOST, at the end. 

[Fool to cry]

This recent interview has stirred up the fandom again!

 

 

[Chyromaniac]

I thought it was common knowledge that plans for Episode 9 changed pretty dramatically throughout the production of the sequel trilogy.  It makes sense that storylines would probably change as well - even something as big as the fate of the main villain.  The biggest inflection point was probably the decision to fire Colin Trevorrow outright after Book of Henry came out.

In fact, if anyone wants to get an idea of what the original story for Kylo might have been, I strongly suggest looking up the leaked details of Trevorrow’s script (Jenny Nicholson’s YouTube recap is particularly entertaining).  I don’t know if it would’ve been better overall than what we actually got.  Or, if perhaps that script also would’ve also been revised to include a redemption arc (tbh, that’s one element of TROS that actually works for me dramatically).  But I really wish I could visit a world where some version of that film did come out, just to see what it would have been like.