S08.E01: Winterfell

[Eyes High]

7 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

So the Dothraki and the dragons and the Unsullied don't eat food? Even if it's just for a couple nights before the AoTD is on their doorstep, that's a lot of food that's needed.

Presumably they made it to Winterfell without cannibalizing the locals.

It was mentioned several times in the episode that Sansa dislikes Dany (I assume because she sees her as a threat), so this idea that she's Just Worried About Food Supplies, and, consequently, that Dany should treat her stated concerns as something other than bitchy attempts to take potshots at her, is complete nonsense.

Also, the various characters weren't saying "Oh, Sansa is only worried about the food supplies." They were saying, not incorrectly, that Sansa doesn't like Dany.

In one of the BTS videos, D.B. Weiss said that had Tyrion arrived at Winterfell by himself, he would have gotten a much different reception from Sansa. So I think in part Sansa acting out at the great hall meeting was fueled by her anger at Tyrion being Dany's Hand and his promises about the Lannisters coming to help. It wasn't just about Dany, although I guess her hostility towards Tyrion is a result of her hostility towards Dany. Still, Sansa being mad at Tyrion for serving Dany isn't a reasonable, well-considered thing; she just dislikes Dany and therefore dislikes Tyrion for serving her.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Worrying about feeding Dany's armies is not a legitimate worry. She was speaking out of spite.

Was it spite, or actually fact.

How is Danny's army going to survive in their tents with snow blowing down ?

 2,4, 5. days in a harsh winter no food is deadly for her forces, and they need high protein food, so they eat their horses when the stores become empty.

Sorry EH, but your statement is not one of your best.

Danny's job is to worry about food for her army, seems no one gave Sansa info she could use to maybe ask her people to bring more.

It wasn't spite, it was a realism to facts laying in front of her.

And add the Lannister army on top.

[screamin]

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In general, yes, but feeding Dany's armies and dragons is not a long-term issue, again for the reasons that others have stated. Sansa just wanted a reason to go in on Dany.

I already explained to Happy Harpy why I thought it might be a long-term issue despite what others have stated (i.e. the folly of marching off on a winter war campaign instead of holing up till spring, the fact that no one knows how long winter will last, etc) if you disagree and want to discuss it. It would help alleviate the North's fears a lot if Dany made it clear she is NOT planning to winter at WF, and otherwise address the food issue (beyond saying that her dragons would eat anything they wanted, that is). Dany deciding that because Sansa doesn't like her, EVERYTHING she says is invalid and therefore not worth a second thought is a bad idea.

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It wasn't just about Dany, although I guess her hostility towards Tyrion is a result of her hostility towards Dany. Still, Sansa being mad at Tyrion for serving Dany isn't a reasonable, well-considered thing; she just dislikes Dany and therefore dislikes Tyrion for serving her.

I'm pretty sure her hostility toward Tyrion is not just because of her hostility toward Dany. I'd say it's because of the news he brought about the Cersei's army coming to 'help', which convinced her he's been duped. Dany would add to that hostility by supplying the power making certain that the guy who got hoodwinked by Cersei now outranks Jon and is setting policy for the North.

Edited April 16, 2019 by screamin

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, screamin said:

I already explained to Happy Harpy why I thought it might be a long-term issue despite what others have stated (i.e. the folly of marching off on a winter war campaign instead of holing up till spring, the fact that no one knows how long winter will last, etc) if you disagree and want to discuss it. It would help alleviate the North's fears a lot if Dany made it clear she is NOT planning to winter at WF, and otherwise address the food issue (beyond saying that her dragons would eat anything they wanted, that is). Dany deciding that because Sansa doesn't like her, EVERYTHING she says is invalid and therefore not worth a second thought is a bad idea.

Look, the only one "worrying" about how to feed Dany's armies is not Jon, who knows that Dany's armies and dragons could make or break the living's survival. It's not Dany, who takes her responsibilities towards her followers and her dragons extremely seriously. It's Sansa, who objects to them being there in the first place, which should give you some idea of what bullshit it is.

Anyone who thinks Sansa would lose any sleep over the Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons starving to death is kidding themselves. Shortsighted and petty as she is, she would probably welcome it as a death blow to Dany's power, so any claim of genuine concern about how to feed Dany's armies and dragons rings completely hollow. She couldn't care less about Dany's forces or their necessity in the war against the AOTD. She just wants an excuse to whine and bitch about how awful Dany is. And of course Dany knows all this, which is why instead of explaining herself she coolly cut Sansa down to size.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[FemmyV]

As much as I loathe stepping into the Dany v Sansa crap (geez, I'm getting flashbacks to the TWoP fights, here) gotta say:

I do think Sansa has a legitimate concern on the food issue. Food is her area of responsibility to account for, so, she gets to be anal about it. What she doesn't get to be is so publicly anal. It doesn't look good on her.

ATM, I'm beginning to fear Imma have to put Dany in my Death Pool 😞 .... she just looked too damned happy in those few minutes she got to be alone with Jon. That never bodes well.

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Cersei - ruthless, selfish, horrible

Dany - a great conqueror, not a great ruler

Jon - his parentage will have to be known for him to hold any weight as a ruler

Sansa - a good manager of Winterfell, but not a ruler

Tyrion - dont think he wants to rule

Jaime - Ditto

Arya - a great fighter but no desire to rule

Oh, I think Tyrion would love to be king. It would be his ultimate FU to Tywin's ghost. In general Tyrion and Dany are my favorite picks because both of them want the power for overall good reasons and know they need the power, to enact their visions. I can't imagine Jon enjoying a crown for even a minute, or enjoying his life having to deal with all the bullshit that goes with it.

I also think I'd kind of be okay with Jaime. He's come a seriously long way from the broken smart-ass, thoughtless jock that he was at the beginning, and now that he's about to have a reckoning with Bran, it's come full circle. I don't think he wants it, but I think he'd be okay at it, should the crown come to him out of left field.

Edited April 16, 2019 by FemmyV

[GraceK]

Also, Jon warned Sansa they were all coming. So I don’t know why Sansa is acting like she is being blindsided. Before he left, Jon said he going to try to convince Dany to join them with her armies and Dragons. So Sansa has had ample time to start preparing for visitors.

Then he wrote her and told her he was arriving with Dothraki, unsullied and Dragons. He made it clear that people are going to congregate there. Sansa was shown preparing Winterfell for battle and a long winter . I mean, now this episode she’s acting like she  had no idea all these people were coming and they need to eat. Like what??? So you knew you receiving allies and guests and made no preparations to receive or feed them? And it’s Danys fault? 

Edited April 16, 2019 by GraceK

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Look, the only one "worrying" about how to feed Dany's armies is not Jon, who knows that Dany's armies and dragons could make or break the living's survival. It's not Dany, who takes her responsibilities towards her followers and her dragons extremely seriously. It's Sansa, who objects to them being there in the first place, which should give you some idea of what bullshit it is.

Anyone who thinks Sansa would lose any sleep over the Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons starving to death is kidding themselves. Shortsighted and petty as she is, she would probably welcome it as a death blow to Dany's power, so any claim of genuine concern about how to feed Dany's armies and dragons rings completely hollow. She couldn't care less about Dany's forces or their necessity in the war against the AOTD. She just wants an excuse to whine and bitch about how awful Dany is.

The trouble with armies in civilian territory is not the worry that the poor well-armed ferocious dears are going to starve to death; they won't. What armies do in those cases is take from combat-unready civilians what they need to survive. This is well-established history, not something Sansa made up on the spur of the moment to annoy Dany. And it's something that the North has reason to worry may happen. It would help a lot if Dany SAID something reassuring about what she's going to do to keep that from needing to happen.

I agree that Dany takes her responsibility towards her followers and her dragons extremely seriously. But the North doesn't know that, and Dany isn't making the least effort to convey it to them. Making her only significant contribution to the counsel "My dragons eat whatever they want (including maybe you, bitch, heh-heh)," doesn't really convey that she feels any responsibility toward the Northerners as anything but dragon fodder.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Look, the only one whining about how to feed Dany's armies is not Jon, who knows that Dany's armies and dragons could make or break the living's survival. It's not Dany, who takes her responsibilities towards her followers and her dragons extremely seriously. It's Sansa, who objects to them being there in the first place, which should give you some idea of what bullshit it is.

Anyone who thinks Sansa would lose any sleep over the Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons starving to death is kidding themselves. Shortsighted and petty as she is, she would probably welcome it as a death blow to Dany's power, so any claim of genuine concern about how to feed Dany's armies and dragons rings completely hollow.

Sansa neither stupid or blind, and she also has history on her side for her reactions.

She also knows the hammer is coming, Jon cares about the hammer, doesn't see the anvil or thinks the anvil can wait, Sansa cares about both and she's right to fear the northern hammer and the southern anvil.

Sansa doesn't trust them, Danny is using veil threats and intimidation , the fly over of her dragons and scaring the small folk wasn't a good will gesture, it was a power move, she used with Cersei and she's using it again and added a smug look with it,  she needs to remember what Darrio said: "To rule you need to know the land and it's people " 

Sansa may be blunt rude, but she's not intimidating Danny or her people, Danny has to learn a different way, and patronizing Sansa did not work, not with her or the north.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, Jon warned Sansa they were all coming. So I don’t know why Sansa is acting like she is being blindsided. Before he left, Jon said he going to try to convince Dany to join them with her armies and Dragons. So Sansa has had ample time to start preparing for visitors.

Then he wrote her and told her he was arriving with Dothraki, unsullied and Dragons. He made it clear that people are going to congregate there. Sansa was shown preparing Winterfell for battle and a long winter . I mean, now this episode she’s acting like she  had no idea all these people were coming and they need to eat. Like what??? So you knew you receiving allies and guests and made no preparations to receive or feed them? And it’s Danys fault? 

She prepared for the tents, outside the walls, Danny's army food supply IS NOT Sansa's job, it's Danny's she said so before she burned the food train.

I don't think it'a apparent Jon gave her numbers  it's larger then even on a good day the North could handle or supply.

[benteen]

Didn't Sansa expect Jon to bring back, I don't know, a BREATHING ARMY?!  If so, then she has nothing to complain about when it comes to feeding them.  Feeding the dragons is a legitimate concern to voice although that should have been done privately.

Sansa is an adequate manager for Winterfell but a lousy ruler who doesn't appreciate the need for alliances.  She did have one with Littlefinger's army but for no reason whatsoever recklessly concealed that from Jon when he went into a crucial battle. 

Now I did make a mistake about Sansa wanting to kill the heirs of Umber and Karstark.  But she still wanted to punish them for decisions they didn't make.  Jon sparred them and had them commit to House Stark.  Both have stayed loyal to House Stark although sadly that didn't do much for House Umber with the White Walkers.  But it's an example of how bad a ruler that Sansa is as she would have made a decision Joffrey would have made.

Edited April 16, 2019 by benteen

[KungFuBunny]

I don't think Sansa's question about food was "stupid"

Sansa was raised to one day be married to someone with a title/land and as the wife she would be overseeing the household/tenants.

I think there are times set aside for hunting/harvesting/storing for the winter months to tide them over til spring and then the process starts over again.

With this many people setting up shop in Winterfell - the supplies will deplete within days. I am not just speaking of Danerys and the Dothraki, but of the other Northern Families gathering there

Forget about the food for a second - you know their wood/coal supply has disappeared just by the forge being set up.

I hope Bran had them put up signs - Dear Wildlings/Dothraki/Others - please do not use Trees with Faces for firewood

Edited April 16, 2019 by KungFuBunny

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

ATM, I'm beginning to fear Imma have to put Dany in my Death Pool 😞 .... she just looked too damned happy in those few minutes she got to be alone with Jon. That never bodes well.

Yeah, both in general for drama and in particular for GOT: if someone's smiling, happy and in love, shit's going to hit the fan imminently. Robb/Talisa, for example. 

And to bring that back to Sansa and Dany, I'd feel a lot worse about Sansa and Dany's prospects for sisterly bonding if they had hit it off right away. The fact that they got off on the wrong foot suggests that Sansa will come around eventually (sort of the opposite of Sansa's relationships with Joffrey and Cersei). Hopefully that will be true for Sam and Dany as well. They all love Jon, so that has to count for something.

13 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa neither stupid or blind, and she also has history on her side for her reactions.

She also knows the hammer is coming, Jon cares about the hammer, doesn't see the anvil or thinks the anvil can wait, Sansa cares about both and she's right to fear the northern hammer and the southern anvil.

Sure, but the argument was that Sansa's concern about the food thing is totally legitimate and a genuine concern and Dany should treat it as such. You're saying that she just hates Dany and distrusts her, meaning her shows of "concern" about the food are just a cover for her real feelings about Dany (hatred and contempt), which is exactly what I was saying. 

Quote

Sansa doesn't trust them, Danny is using veil threats and intimidation , the fly over of her dragons and scaring the small folk wasn't a good will gesture, it was a power move, she used with Cersei and she's using it again and added a smug look with it, she needs to remember what Darrio said: "To rule you need to know the land and it's people "

The smallfolk were trying to stare her and her people down and intimidate them, and she paid them back in kind. They were begging for a power move, and they got it. And it's the same with Sansa openly whining about Dany and sneering about her armies; she was begging to be put in her place, and boy oh boy did she get her wish.

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Oh, I think Tyrion would love to be king. It would be his ultimate FU to Tywin's ghost.

Book Tyrion, for sure, but TV Tyrion in recent seasons seems...tired. He's unsure of himself, cautious, hesitant, and just...tired. The strutting, confident, arrogant Tyrion from the early seasons is long gone. TV Tyrion has taken too many hits and never recovered, I think. Even his strategizing as Dany's Hand seemed like him going through the motions. If Dany fires him as Hand, I don't know that he would object at this point. He seems ready in Season 8 to pack it in and get started on his vineyard.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

Didn't Sansa expect Jon to bring back, I don't know, a BREATHING ARMY?!  If so, then she has nothing to complain about when it comes to feeding them.  Feeding the dragons is a legitimate concern to voice although that should have been done privately.

No, that's on Jon and Danny. When Robb went to war his houses supplied their own armywith what they need , same with Tywin's army.

Sansa is responsible for feeding the north at winterfell, and each of their houses must provide for that house and to Winterfell to pool if it's an extended winter, Sansa stated if they don't use it, they'll get the food back, she responsible for finding area's for shelter for all the people ( including Danny's )she is not responsible to provide food for Danny, she's to bring enough for her army, but she burned much, which means they had to forage or steal from the farmers, giving her more bad PR.

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but the argument was that Sansa's concern about the food thing is totally legitimate and a genuine concern and Dany should treat it as such. You're saying that she just hates Dany and distrusts her, meaning her shows of "concern" about the food are just a cover for her real feelings about Dany (hatred and contempt), which is exactly what I was saying. 

I'm not saying she hates her, You or someone else said that( from how I read it) she distrust her; and Sansa has 300 years of history to fall back on; Dany has tales from her brother.

Those 300 years of peace was filled with more Targ infighting and wars, we know it, QOT knew it and told her so.

Her power move and patronizing Sansa was a bad move, and her veil threats ' what ever they want "...' if she doesn't respect me...." also shows Danny not being smart, and  it's entitlement. She has to earn the north, Sansa may be rude and blunt, she's not threatening anyone, but she is laying facts.

Danny and Sansa have more in common then they know.

Sansa concern for the food is real, she trust Jon, but she also isn't wearing rose colored glasses any longer and her non abusive question to Jon about duty and love is a valid one; if Jon answered both, I feel damn sure Sansa would accept that answer.

This is also following F & B, with some changes.

Edited April 16, 2019 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm not saying she hates her, You or someone else said that

Everyone is saying that: Arya, Jon, Dany, the cast and crew behind the scenes. 

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Her power move and patronizing Sansa was a bad move

Was it? It accomplished the desired end: it shut Sansa up, at least publicly (which is why she's reduced to bitching to Jon in private). 

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and her veil threats ' what ever they want "

What's the alternative? Roll over with a smile and show herself for a weakling? Take Sansa's ear to teach her respect, as Rakharo once urged her to do? Execute Sansa, as Jon did to Janos Slynt when he mouthed off one too many times? Dany's not going to go nuclear right away, but she's not going to let Sansa run her mouth, either. Nor should she.

And really, Sansa's distrust of Targaryens is her problem, not Dany's. It's not Dany's job to hold Sansa's hand and help her through her feelings, especially after the way Sansa has treated her. If Sansa is so hopelessly paranoid and insecure that she's incapable of seeing Dany as anything other than a threat despite Jon's trust in Dany and Dany putting her money where her mouth is and showing up with her dragons, armies, and dragonglass, then she needs to grow the fuck up already. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

47 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, Jon warned Sansa they were all coming. So I don’t know why Sansa is acting like she is being blindsided. Before he left, Jon said he going to try to convince Dany to join them with her armies and Dragons. So Sansa has had ample time to start preparing for visitors.

We saw the message Jon sent. It was the size of an unrolled cigarette paper. It certainly did not include a roster of how many soldiers were coming, nor the fact that the meat-eating dragons they're bringing with them are the size of 747's.

We already saw throughout the last season that Sansa and the Northern lords were VERY worried that all the food they could bring together would not be enough just for the population of the North. If you're going to fault Sansa now for not somehow coming up with food for a hundred thousand more people, you kind of should tell us how you expected Sansa to get ahold of that much food. We know her resources, we know her connections - how do you expect her to have gotten so much food when the entire North is short of it?

Edited April 16, 2019 by screamin

[GrailKing]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The smallfolk were trying to stare her and her people down and intimidate them, and she paid them back in kind. They were begging for a power move, and they got it. And it's the same with Sansa openly sniping at and challenging Dany; she was begging to be put in her place, and boy oh boy did she get her wish.

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The small folk showed distrust, they like Sansa have history on their side, each and every family.

Maybe in your eye's; I didn't see Sansa backing down, and next week's episode will bring it to a head and an end ( hopefully ).

[screamin]

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The smallfolk were trying to stare her and her people down and intimidate them, and she paid them back in kind. They were begging for a power move, and they got it.

Because God knows those insolent smallfolk have it easy and are totally spoiled, and deserve whatever fright they get when they see those dragons and are eventually told that their new queen's first participation in a council was "Dragons eat whatever they want."

Edited April 16, 2019 by screamin

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

As much as I loathe stepping into the Dany v Sansa crap (geez, I'm getting flashbacks to the TWoP fights, here) gotta say:

I do think Sansa has a legitimate concern on the food issue. Food is her area of responsibility to account for, so, she gets to be anal about it. What she doesn't get to be is so publicly anal. It doesn't look good on her.

ATM, I'm beginning to fear Imma have to put Dany in my Death Pool 😞 .... she just looked too damned happy in those few minutes she got to be alone with Jon. That never bodes well.

Oh, I think Tyrion would love to be king. It would be his ultimate FU to Tywin's ghost. In general Tyrion and Dany are my favorite picks because both of them want the power for overall good reasons and know they need the power, to enact their visions. I can't imagine Jon enjoying a crown for even a minute, or enjoying his life having to deal with all the bullshit that goes with it.

I also think I'd kind of be okay with Jaime. He's come a seriously long way from the broken smart-ass, thoughtless jock that he was at the beginning, and now that he's about to have a reckoning with Bran, it's come full circle. I don't think he wants it, but I think he'd be okay at it, should the crown come to him out of left field.

In re: who should rule in the end - There’s a meme going around with a screenshot showing Jon Snow looking put-upon and exhausted and it says: “Jon Snow every time he gets rid of one title and they give him a higher one.”

Ironically, the fact that he doesn’t want the crown is probably the reason he’ll end being the one to wear it.

Edited April 16, 2019 by MarySNJ
Revised comment.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

There’s a meme going around with a screenshot showing Jon Snow looking put-upon and exhausted and it says: “Jon Snow every time he gets rid of one title and they give him a higher one.”

Ironically, the fact that he doesn’t want the crown is probably the reason he’ll end being the one to wear it.

I saw that .

I think SAM and Sansa may work that in the background; Danny lost Sam when she killed Dickon, Sansa just don 't trust her or those dragons.

[GraceK]

16 minutes ago, screamin said:

ou're going to fault Sansa now for not somehow coming up with food for a hundred thousand more people, you kind of should tell us how you expected Sansa to get ahold of that much food

See that’s the thing. I don’t actually fault Sansa. I actually am able to step back and see her side of things. That’s the difference. I have stated many times that I can understand Sansas frustration at finally securing a powerful place for herself, and Jon giving it up. I can see her being distrustful at this new person sweeping in. I can understand that it may not be be a logical feeling, but it’s an emotional reaction. That’s the difference, is that Sansa is usually given massive understanding, and If she’s not because people just hate her character, her rabid fans EXPECT her to be given massive understanding for every choice, decision and move she makes no matter if onscreen it comes across as petty, shortsighted or mean. Whereas Dany is never given the benefit of the doubt ever,  , and in fact, it’s always the opposite. There has been nothing shown so far to say that Dany cannot provide for her own armies. Yet immediately everyone is jumping to the conclusion that she expects Sansa to because she asked a question. Dany has done nothing but help, but her motivations aren’t pure enough? She has been polite and restrained, but one snarky remark and she’s power hungry and threatening? Jon bent the knee but it’s Dany who stole the North? It’s unbearable.   Dany has been through just as much as Sansa has, only earlier, and chances are she will be through more this season, and we are never supposed to say “ cut her some slack , she has trust issues.” 🙄 this episode also shows Dany happy and in love and soft for the first time in years and all anyone can say is how power hungry and cold  she is.

Why can’t anyone just admit that this was not Sansa’s best episode? Seriously? Is she not allowed to ever be  looked at negatively or have a bad day?

Edited April 16, 2019 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, screamin said:

Because God knows those insolent smallfolk have it easy and are totally spoiled, and deserve whatever fright they get when they see those dragons and are eventually told that their new queen's first participation in a council was "they eat whatever they want."

If they think it's a great idea to glower and glare at a bunch of soldiers who are armed to the teeth and a queen who commands two dragons, they are and they do.

Davos said himself in this episode that you need to earn the Northerners' respect. You do not earn respect by being sweet and friendly when people treat you like shit; you earn it by demonstrating that you can't be intimidated. That's what Dany did. 

20 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

There’s a meme going around with a screenshot showing Jon Snow looking put-upon and exhausted and it says: “Jon Snow every time he gets rid of one title and they give him a higher one.”

Ironically, the fact that he doesn’t want the crown is probably the reason he’ll end being the one to wear it.

The series ends with Jon being reluctantly promoted to God. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, GraceK said:

See that’s the thing. I don’t actually fault Sansa. I actually am able to step back and see her side of things. That’s the difference. I have stated many times that I can understand Sansas frustration at finally securing a powerful place for herself, and Jon giving it up. I can see her being distrustful at this new person sweeping in. I can understand that it may not be be a logical feeling, but it’s an emotional reaction. That’s the difference, is that Sansa is usually given massive understanding, and If she’s not because people just hate her character, her rabid fans EXPECT her to be given massive understanding for every choice, decision and move she makes no matter if onscreen it comes across as petty, shortsighted or mean. Whereas Dany is never given the benefit of the doubt ever,  , and in fact, it’s always the opposite. There has been nothing shown so far to say that Dany cannot provide for her own armies. Yet immediately everyone is jumping to the conclusion that she expects Sansa to because she asked a question. Dany has done nothing but help, but her motivations aren’t pure enough? She has been polite and restrained, but one snarky remark and she’s power hungry and threatening? Jon bent the knee but it’s Dany who stole the North? It’s unbearable.   Dany has been through just as much as Sansa has, only earlier, and chances are she will be through more this season, and we are never supposed to say “ cut her some slack , she has trust issues.” 🙄 this episode also shows Dany happy and in love and soft for the first time in years and all anyone can say is how power hungry and cold  she is.

Why can’t anyone just admit that this was not Sansa’s best episode? Seriously? Is she not allowed to ever be  looked at negatively or have a bad day?

Hey, I DID say that Sansa deserved to be reprimanded in public for her disrespect. But she and the North also deserved to have their concerns noted by their ruler, and not merely dismissed and mocked out of hand (as both Sansa and the smallfolk were) because they don't like or trust Dany right off the bat and have the gall to dare show it.

[Special K]

Re:  verifying Jon's parentage.  Isn't it time for Howland Reed to make an appearance?  He's the only one who was at the Tower of Joy (except baby Jon) who is still alive, right?

[benteen]

22 minutes ago, screamin said:

We saw the message Jon sent. It was the size of an unrolled cigarette paper. It certainly did not include a roster of how many soldiers were coming, nor the fact that the meat-eating dragons they're bringing with them are the size of 747's.

We already saw throughout the last season that Sansa and the Northern lords were VERY worried that all the food they could bring together would not be enough just for the population of the North. If you're going to fault Sansa now for not somehow coming up with food for a hundred thousand more people, you kind of should tell us how you expected Sansa to get ahold of that much food. We know her resources, we know her connections - how do you expect her to have gotten so much food when the entire North is short of it?

But Sansa knew he'd be bringing an army.  So she shouldn't have acted like she was unaware.

[YaddaYadda]

22 minutes ago, Special K said:

Re:  verifying Jon's parentage.  Isn't it time for Howland Reed to make an appearance?  He's the only one who was at the Tower of Joy (except baby Jon) who is still alive, right?

Sure, but Bran told Sam last season that he was the only one who knew the truth of Jon's identity, even though we know it's not true.

If they were intent on bringing Howland Reed, I think they would have waited before they sent poor Meera who deserved a hell of a lot better than this bullshit off screen forever.

ETA - I think that's the whole reason they had Jon ride Rhaegal before they found out anything. When the truth comes out, Varys and Tyrion and Davos saw him flying and they and Dany will understand the implication of that right away.

Edited April 16, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Happy Harpy]

20 minutes ago, Special K said:

Re:  verifying Jon's parentage.  Isn't it time for Howland Reed to make an appearance?  He's the only one who was at the Tower of Joy (except baby Jon) who is still alive, right?

They didn't say he was dead, at the very least, and they showed him in the flash-back. However, Meera being gone doesn't bode well for her father showing up.

Imo, Jon's parentage and birthright won't matter in the end. Whoever rules Westeros will probably be chosen for their role in saving the people from the AOTD, like Robert was chosen in the winning side after the Rebellion.

[Sakura12]

Once the wrights and the walkers show up the Northerners will be running behind Dany's army and picking up the weapons that can kill them she brought with her. 

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I don't think it'a apparent Jon gave her numbers  it's larger then even on a good day the North could handle or supply.

Also, maybe Jon didn't tell her that the army didn't have food supplies and the Northerners would be expected to provide food for them.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Anyone who thinks Sansa would lose any sleep over the Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons starving to death is kidding themselves.

She's the only one who wondered about feeding them. 

Either way, like I said, this is the kind of writing that makes everyone look like a moron. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

If they think it's a great idea to glower and glare at a bunch of soldiers who are armed to the teeth and a queen who commands two dragons, they are and they do.

Davos said himself in this episode that you need to earn the Northerners' respect. You do not earn respect by being sweet and friendly when people treat you like shit; you earn it by demonstrating that you can't be intimidated. That's what Dany did. 

We've seen what a dangerously hostile crowd of smallfolk look like on this show. That ain't it. All I saw were a bunch of poor people with no visible armor or weapons looking with silent distrust at a huge number of heavily armed strangers. They were not doing anything that could possibly be said to be intimidating to a huge army of heavily armed and trained warriors marching in formation. To decide that they deserved retaliation because they didn't greet her with cheers and tossed flowers is way petty of her.

Edited April 16, 2019 by screamin

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Why can’t anyone just admit that this was not Sansa’s best episode? Seriously?

Maybe, maybe not, but it wasn't Danny's either, and Sansa wasn't the only one with emotions or acting at times with emotions.

 I'm still waiting to see how Danny acts without WMD.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Why can’t anyone just admit that this was not Sansa’s best episode? Seriously? Is she not allowed to ever be  looked at negatively or have a bad day?

Some of us did. You just weren't reading it.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I'm still waiting to see how Danny acts without WMD.

Check out season 5 when she locked them up and Drogon was MIA.

[LadyPenelope]

What irritated me about Sansa this episode was not her feelings about Dany - really, she is quite sensible to be wary of  her. Dany is an unknown quantity - she’s yet another queen at the end of a war with crowds of random people declaring themselves kings or queens, she’s a Targaryen, she’s bringing foreign armies with frightening reputations into Winterfell, as well as dragons which apparently (and actually) eat whatever or whoever they want.

My issue is that the writers seem to have no understanding of actual court politics. This has been an ongoing theme since early seasons, when Littlefinger gave his “knowledge is power” speech to Cersei. There is a hierarchy. There are consequences to stepping out of line. And Sansa especially, who sees courtesy as a lady’s armour, would know that. The girl who could get up from being beaten and humiliated and still maintain her love for Joffrey would know better than to be openly rude to the new queen. She can go away and bitch and scheme behind her back, but her immediate response should have been absolute sweetness and light. I’m not quite sure what they are aiming for with her character because that was Book Sansa’s main thing. 

In other news, Jon and Dany have the opposite of chemistry. Watching them kiss is actively uncomfortable. 

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, LadyPenelope said:

would know better than to be openly rude to the new queen. 

But this is the point, Jon bending the knee does not make her Sansa's or any other person their automatic Queen, Danny should had learn that in Essos and down south with Tarly and others.

She thinks she can just bull her way to the chair.

Fight first, no intimidation moves, leave the Dragons out of sight and both lady's don't need to try and prove who has the bigger bra.

And Jon should open his mouth to BOTH of Them.

[GrailKing]

19 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Check out season 5 when she locked them up and Drogon was MIA.

Yeah the same dragons that feed on a master Danny had no proof of doing anything wrong, then threatens the others.

Good point.

[KungFuBunny]

What happened to the following:

1) Ramsey killed his father and inherited all of his property. Ramsey married Sansa and when Ramsey was killed does she have claim to all of his property? What happened to the people who lived there - not the soldiers? Did they empty the properties of all supplies/equipment?

2) Arya killed Walder Frey - what is going on at House of Frey? Does Winterfell now control House Of Frey? I remember there was some strategic use (pathway) on Frey land that would be beneficial in war.

[GodsBeloved]

On 4/15/2019 at 3:00 AM, Colorful Mess said:

What was so shocking to me about this episode is that the Tarly reveal upset Sam enough to run to Jon but Sam doesn't even know about the method of execution yet.....Dany didn't tell him.

But wasn't it Bran who said it was time for Jon to know? Sam didn't initiated telling Jon and didn't even want to do it but Bran thought it was better if that info came from his trusted friend.

[LadyPenelope]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

But this is the point, Jon bending the knee does not make her Sansa's or any other person their automatic Queen, Danny should had learn that in Essos and down south with Tarly and others.

She thinks she can just bull her way to the chair.

Fight first, no intimidation moves, leave the Dragons out of sight and both lady's don't need to try and prove who has the bigger bra.

And Jon should open his mouth to BOTH of Them.

I mean... I would argue that Jon, King in the North, bending the knee to Dany does make her Sansa’s queen. It isn’t a democracy. Either way, the truly smart thing to do would have been to pretend to be delighted to meet her, then do what she needed to behind her back.

This is not a criticism of Sansa exactly - I love Book Sansa - I just think it’s poor writing. I am taking no sides in Dany vs. Sansa because I just don’t care. I’m rooting for Cersei tbh.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, LadyPenelope said:

This is not a criticism of Sansa exactly - I love Book Sansa - I just think it’s poor writing. I am taking no sides in Dany vs. Sansa because I just don’t care. I’m rooting for Cersei tbh.

What happens when you remove Sansa from the class room and put her in her friend's skin.

I'm rooting for Cersei TOO! but not the way you may be. 

[YaddaYadda]

29 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

What happened to the following:

1) Ramsey killed his father and inherited all of his property. Ramsey married Sansa and when Ramsey was killed does she have claim to all of his property? What happened to the people who lived there - not the soldiers? Did they empty the properties of all supplies/equipment?

2) Arya killed Walder Frey - what is going on at House of Frey? Does Winterfell now control House Of Frey? I remember there was some strategic use (pathway) on Frey land that would be beneficial in war.

I don't know if Sansa would have dibs on the Dreadfort. I think her marriage would be invalidated because Tyrion was still alive. The marriage was never consummated, but it wasn't set aside either. 

As far as the Twins go, Arya killed the men, IIRC, so House Frey through the female line would still be alive. Barring that, Edmure was married to Roslin and she was pregnant, so the Frey lands might just go to him. I'm assuming his titles will be restored at some point.

I don't think D&D thought about any of this or the laws of succession and they will make up their stuff as they go, if anything.

Edited April 16, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[GraceK]

So here’s a article from Vulture and this one part puts into words what I’m trying to say a little nicer, probably because it comes more from the view of a Sansa fan if it helps .

The first, and most perniciously irritating, is Sansa’s childish annoyance with Jon’s new-sworn fealty to Daenerys. The annoyance itself is understandable—Jon has upended the entire order of the realm without consulting her. But the demonstration is beneath a woman as smart as Sansa Stark. The sighs, the eye-rolling, all petty signs that a penis-bearing crew wrote this episode and didn’t consider that Sansa—who, bear in mind, has been abused, raped, imprisoned, and forced to spend time with the icky Robin Arryn—wouldn’t whine like a small child just because Daenerys is pretty. Sansa poses valuable questions—how will Daenerys earn the respect of the leering, weary Northerners?—but her preoccupation with Jon’s title isn’t befitting a woman clever enough to call in the Knights of the Vale and snatch victory away from Ramsay in the Battle of the Bastards.

source :https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/game-of-thrones-recap-season-8-episode-1-winterfell.html

And that’s the thing. Everyone is saying how smart, how shrewd, what a player she is now. But if thats certainly not the case this episode. She should be forging alliances with Daenerys as well,  solidifying her claim in the North by making sure that when this over, they still have a strong ally and Daenerys is thankful for Winterfells help. She should push for Dany and Jon to get married, in exchange for The Northerners goodwill and independence . She should want Cersei off the throne and her brother on it, and herself firmly in control of the North. Why make more enemies instead of powerful allies? She knows how dangerous Cersei is, that’s her real enemy. And if she doesn’t trust Dany, then play nice and wait until this threat is taken care of, and learn more about this Dragon queen in the meantime and plot when it’s over like Littlefinger would. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by GraceK

[BadAssRobinArryn]

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

It is, but I think it's one of those problem with no good solution anyway. I can't say it's because plot demanded it, since if they wanted Ned Umber dead at the Last Hearth they just had to have Sansa announce that he wrote asking for more wagons.

I'm sure they wanted to remind the viewers who Lord Umber was and give him some memorable scene, so that his death has a bit more impact. That's why they had him in Winterfell first.

[Hana Chan]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think SAM and Sansa may work that in the background; Danny lost Sam when she killed Dickon, Sansa just don 't trust her or those dragons.

There are several reviewers who are starting to point out that Dany's execution of the Tarleys might be the beginning of the end for her chances at ruling. However justified she might feel about killing them, the manner that she did so is drawing all kinds of comparisons with her father. It may become inescapable.

And unless Dany is able to convince at least the noble houses that she will be a good and different ruler than those who have gone before, she's left with no other choices except ruling by force. And that takes her whole "break the wheel" spiel and tosses it into the garbage. Burning opposing noble alive because they refuse to acknowledge her as Queen long before her tush is parked in the worlds ugliest chair was a lousy way to start her quest in Westeros and it's her bad fortune that those men just happened to be related to her boy toy's best friend. 

[LadyPenelope]

37 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

What happens when you remove Sansa from the class room and put her in her friend's skin.

I'm rooting for Cersei TOO! but not the way you may be. 

Yeah, I’m afraid I’m genuinely rooting for Cersei. Like - I want her to have her baby and Jaime and live happily ever after. It’s probably not the most popular opinion.

I used to think Sansa would be a good endgame queen, but not this Sansa. At this point, there is nobody who might realistically have a shot at the throne who I care about. 

[GraceK]

This was funny 

[GrailKing]

28 minutes ago, LadyPenelope said:

Yeah, I’m afraid I’m genuinely rooting for Cersei. Like - I want her to have her baby and Jaime and live happily ever after. It’s probably not the most popular opinion.

I used to think Sansa would be a good endgame queen, but not this Sansa. At this point, there is nobody who might realistically have a shot at the throne who I care about. 

Sansa may not be perfect, none of the main contenders are, but some how who ever it is, Sansa will most likely be in that mix, as a partner or one of the leaders.

It looks like it's how the book and show are going.

ETA: yeah I once thought it be justice if Cersei got banished then slowly goes mad, but I got harder on her now.

Edited April 16, 2019 by GrailKing

[Growsonwalls]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Jaime - may not want to rule, but he be decent at it.

Jaime and Tyrion would be decent at ruling, especially together. But the way things go because of their family connection to Cersei it would be nearly impossible unless both of them had it in them to execute Cersei. 

As for Sansa, it's so strange how people in this thread say they'll be happy at nothing less than her having her throat slit, yet at Winterfell she appears to be a pretty popular ruler. If she was so awful, how come most of the hardy men of Winterfell like her as a ruler?

Edited April 16, 2019 by Growsonwalls

[Smad]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

Jon bent the knee but it’s Dany who stole the North?

Yes, to the North it looks that way. And you know why? Because Jon lets them believe that. He could have told the truth, that Dany swore allegiance to him without asking for him to bend the knee. Great PR for Dany. So why didn't he? Scared of what the North would do to him when they find out she didn't ask for his crown and he gave it up because he wanted to get laid? Well I guess it's better to let the North think bad of his gf than to think worse of him.

5 hours ago, benteen said:

But Sansa knew he'd be bringing an army.  So she shouldn't have acted like she was unaware.

I don't think she was expected to be aware that the North would have to provide for Dany's army. That's Dany's job. Sansa is supposed to supply the Northern army, smallfolk and refugees and that's what she began last Season. Everyone brings food with them to sustain their numbers. Sansa can only be expected to take care of the logistics on where to put Dany's men, not what to feed them.

Oh if only Dany hadn't burned the food from an entire region, maybe she would have something to feed her army with (that per her own words she couldn't sustain back in S7). Or if she hadn't made a complete moron her hand, she would still have a fleet with which she could import food. Bummer.

[GraceK]

On rewatch I blame Jon for a lot of this animosity. One of the first things he says in that beginning council meeting to the Northerners is “ I had a choice. Keep my crown or save the North. I chose the North “. LIES!!!

Nice way to shift the blame to Daenerys Jon. Did he just forget about that whole Beyond the wall debacle??? Dany pledged to fight with him as equals, he CHOSE to bend the knee to her. Why didn’t he mention that? Why didn’t he say she flew to rescue me and my men from an wintery death beyond the wall and that’s how she lost a dragon? And then Tyrion makes that speech defending Jon,  basically saying what a hero he is and how brave he is and how thanks to him the North is saved, completely leaving out the part where if it wasn’t for Dany, everyone on that mission but Jon would be dead ( possibly depending on how fast Benjen got there to save him) and they never would have gotten that wight to show Cersei and that it was his Queen who offered to fight with them all with no conditions!!! It makes Dany look worse in comparison  and selfish . It certainly did her no favors in the eyes of the north.  It drives me crazy . 

9 minutes ago, Smad said:

Yes, to the North it looks that way. And you know why? Because Jon lets them believe that. He could have told the truth, that Dany swore allegiance to him without asking for him to bend the knee. Great PR for Dany

Lol I just wrote that myself!!

Edited April 16, 2019 by GraceK