S08.E01: Winterfell

[Advance35]

Quote

I still just fail to understand why Sansa speaking up in front of other Northern Lords is so awful.  Should she just sit there and put up with anything like she did with Ramsey, Joffrey, Robin? A perk of having a brother as the King is having a seat at the table and a voice.  It would be unrealistic for her to act with Jon as she did in the past.

And I think Jon bears some responsibility for their dynamic. I always see people saying that Sansa distrusts Jon, doesn’t think much of him etc.  And we see Jon asking, “have you no faith in me?”  But the feeling is mutual. Jon’s little snide remark to Arya wasn’t the first time he indicated he doesn’t listen to Sansa.  He did it last year when Sansa told him he needed to be smarter than Ned and Rob, and he replied, “how? By listening to you?”  Sansa sadly replied, “would that be so awful?”  And crickets from Jon.  So I don’t think Jon is listening to her in private, either.  Speaking up in front of everyone at least gets his attention.  I’m not sure Sansa would get it otherwise.

Pretty much everything you said.

Jon doesn't do council meetings.  The closest thing was when they received the "invitation" from Dany inviting him to Dragonstone to bend the knee.   He discussed it with Sansa and Davos.  Sansa said it was a trap, Davos more or less agreedd and Jon decided he would not go.   Later,  he gets a note from Sam and in the middle of the hall, tells the Lords AND Sansa (for the first time) that he IS going to Dragonstone???? WTF?????

When Lord Royce advocated publicly for destroying the Keeps of the Karstarks, Sansa wisely thought they should make use of the Lands, making them rewards for those who have been the most loyal (this would have been a wise maneuver in Kings Landing).  Jon chose to show the line of demarcation by saying no.  

I don't think Jon values the kind of experience Sansa has.  To Jon, when your fighting on the same side, your on the same side.  He's spent the past few years with Pip, Grenn, Dolores Edd and Samwell Tarly.   

Sansa has spent the last few years with Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion, Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Lyssa Arryn, Robin Arryn, Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton and Walda Frey.  Was anyone in her circles ever on anyone's side but their own?  I don't think Sansa knows HOW to be open and honest anymore.

Sansa makes Jon want to wring her neck, but I have know doubt that he loves her and wants her safe.  But he doesn't understand her.  And I think the reason she has a seat at the table is because of the Vale.  Lord Royce really is there for her.  He disdains Dany and her Lannister hand.  He is disenchanted with Jon.  But we frequently see he and Sansa talking.

I actually find this character dynamic very believable, even if I tend to see Sansa's side more.  Jon's tunnel vision is set on the pending invasion, if they survive, he's going to be damn glad Sansa was concerned about food (assuming a solution can be found), it would be a shame if those who survived the white wallkers starved to death afterwards.   And who knows what state the Unsullied and Dothraki will be in after the AOD.  Will Dany still have an army?  Enough of one to take Kings Landing?   She may want Jon to get Sansa to use her influence with the Vale on her behalf.

I just feel Sansa brings things of note to the overall table and has earned the right to speak up.  Though I notice she saved most of her ire for Jon, for when they were in private.   I had to LOL when they were in the Great Hall and Lyanna Mormont went in on him and Jon immediately looked at Sansa.  She remained composed but as a viewer you know she was fist pumping to every word.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Advance35

[Wendy]

6 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I still just fail to understand why Sansa speaking up in front of other Northern Lords is so awful.  Should she just sit there and put up with anything like she did with Ramsey, Joffrey, Robin? A perk of having a brother as the King is having a seat at the table and a voice.  It would be unrealistic for her to act with Jon as she did in the past.

And I think Jon bears some responsibility for their dynamic. I always see people saying that Sansa distrusts Jon, doesn’t think much of him etc.  And we see Jon asking, “have you no faith in me?”  But the feeling is mutual. Jon’s little snide remark to Arya wasn’t the first time he indicated he doesn’t listen to Sansa.  He did it last year when Sansa told him he needed to be smarter than Ned and Rob, and he replied, “how? By listening to you?”  Sansa sadly replied, “would that be so awful?”  And crickets from Jon.  So I don’t think Jon is listening to her in private, either.  Speaking up in front of everyone at least gets his attention.  I’m not sure Sansa would get it otherwise.

1000 kudos.  All of it is Jon's fault. 

I love Jon and I think that in this multitude of failed candidates, he probably will be the most decent ruler, but he does need advisors and he needs to listen to them because all this mess is mainly his fault. We are here trying to dissect Sansa and Daenerys behaviors and pin them against each other when in reality all this mess could have been avoided by Jon in many, many ways. 

1) Instead of one raven sent to Sansa letting her know that he bent the knee and nothing else, he could have kept her informed on a weekly/ or even monthly basis so she had news to share with the Northern lords. His lack of communication left them to speculate a lot of things, none of them good. Jon knows how distrustful and prickly his people are. 

2) He could have formed a small retinue (with all the survivors from his WW chase) as soon as they landed in White Harbor and take off to WF. Arrived there a couple of weeks before the army and have enough time to discuss with his siblings and lords everything that happened and why he had to bend the knee in order to defeat the NK. 

3) How about bring the upper body of the WW that they showed Cersei. Dany didn't believe in them because she hasn't seen them, neither did Cersei but here Jon has not shown the North the true nature of this deadly threat, they have to go by his word but sometimes you need more than just words. All the survivors could have talked about it, how it went and how many they saw. 

4) Warned Daenerys about the food situation way ahead of time so as they were riding to WF they could have brought supplies with them. Also let her know not to take it as an offense if they are cold to her because that is who they are with everyone who is an outsider. Maybe then Daenerys would not feel offended or disrespected off the bat and defensive about it. 

So far Jon as bended the knee and rode into WF with a Targaryen conqueror who is known for killing her enemies with dragon fire and they are all wondering "OMG, why are these people so rude?" , really? Since Ned left for KL nothing good has happened in the North coming from the South and Jon could have help the situation so much, instead he decided to hold Daenerys hand and ride together when his time could have been used to prepare his people to accept the idea of her coming to help. Daenerys doesn't know the intricacies of the North but Jon does and he should have seen this coming miles away and be ready for it.  

[terrymct]

9 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people willing to attest to Jon's parentage are his "brother" the creepy seer, and his best friend, whose father and brother were executed by the other Targaryen claimant.

i don't know how the other characters would react, but in real life many would be skeptical

There's a book at the Citadel that has the notes of the maester who was at the wedding of Jon's parents.   Was that one of the books that Sam made off with?

[GodsBeloved]

23 minutes ago, Gummo said:

That just leaves Tormund and Jaime dueling for the hand of Lady Brienne. (LOL, I can dream, can't I?)

Yes you can. Yes You CAN!! LOL

[Drogo]

Just now, Sakura12 said:

With the Tarly's what was Dany supposed to do with them? They didn't have the room or time to worry about prisoners. She couldn't let them go and have them run back to Cersei. That would show Cersei she was weak and give Cersei her allies back. She didn't have much of a choice. 

She really didn't, but she gave them choices; they weren't there for it.  Also, Dickon is the only person to blame for his execution. 

Dickon:  "You're going to have to kill me, too!" 
Daenerys: 

As the Breaker of Chains, Daenerys is not about keeping prisoners any more than she's about keeping slaves.  She wants free men who will fight for her, as free men, and who want to live in the new world she plans to create.  She says as much in the execution scene, where she tells Tyrion "I'm not here to put people into chains."

Also, Randyll Tarly is a proud xenophobe.  He only supports Cersei over Daenerys because Daenerys is foreign; he cares nothing for what Cersei did to the proud family he has served his entire life and worse, he led the attack personally on Highgarden.  Boy, bye- you're not what we need in our new wheel-less world.

BUT -

Let's say they did want to take Lord Tarly and his heir as "valuable prisoners" (which, come on, can we really see Cersei trading *the women who killed her only daughter* for some shitheel who betrayed Olenna Tyrell and his stupid son with a stupider name?  They're only valuable prisoners if the other side cares, and Cersei DGAF.) 

But let's say they did, here's the next issue:  there were a significant number of other losing-side soldiers who refused to bend the knee who she would've also needed to imprison if she spared R&D's lives.  So she's not imprisoning 2, she's imprisoning... 20?  50?  Anyway, they all conveniently knelt after their leaders were seared to a delightful Medium Rare, and voila! No prisoners to worry about.

[Constantinople]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The equivalent they're drawing in the show is mercy to prisoners, "beat dogs" as Stannis called them. Lannister or wildling, the they were beaten,.

Dany saw no use for Randyll or Dickon. Jon saw use for the wildlings. You can't tell me that Jon wouldn't see use for Randyll or Dickon in some capacity. This is the way to gain loyalty in Westeros. Make people feel useful. 

Jon found a use for Janos Slynt.  Janos rejected  that opportunity and Jon executed him. 

Dany found a use for Randyll and Dickon, and Tyrion suggested another. They rejected both opportunities and Dany executed them.

Ultimately, Jon and Dany found the same use for Janos Slynt and Randyll Tarly.

So I don't understand, why, when they react in the same way, Jon is praised and Dany is condemned.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

But can't Sam produce the writing that lead him to the truth about Jon? I don't remember what the writing said exactly but wouldn't that be proof? 

Sam's an admitted felon, and if he's willing to steal from the Citadel, he's not above forging documents.

Everyone knows Ned is Jon's father.  But once Jon is Commander of the Night's Watch he sends Sam on a mission to the Citadel.  A mission on which Sam the thief just happens to find documents proving Jon's claim, documents which no one has ever seen before?

For that matter, if Sam believes Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne and not Daenerys, why did Sam ask Daenerys for a pardon and not Jon? And why did Sam run to Jon to tell Jon about Jon's "true" parentage moments after Sam found out Daenerys executed Sam's father and brother.

Sounds fishy

Edited April 16, 2019 by Constantinople

[GodsBeloved]

48 minutes ago, Drogo said:

As the Breaker of Chains, Daenerys is not about keeping prisoners any more than she's about keeping slaves.  She wants free men who will fight for her, as free men, and who want to live in the new world she plans to create.  She says as much in the execution scene, where she tells Tyrion "I'm not here to put people into chains."

That's all well and good. She doesn't want to put people in physical chains. She wants free men who want to live in her new world.

What I'd love to know is if the North, in the same why they freely chose Jon to be their leader/KITN, now chose independence from Daenerys, what will her reaction be?

She wants free men but does she want free men who choose something other than her? I'm not talking about a group who would displace her, only a group who would choose to displace her from ruling over them.

Missandei told Davos I believe that they chose Daenerys as their queen and chose to follow her and again that's all well and good. The North (not Jon but the North as a whole) should have that same opportunity and if they make a different choice how will that sit with Daenerys.

Edited April 16, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Wendy]

46 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Even the actors think Dany is supposed to be seen as a psychopath at this point.

https://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-sam-daenerys-pscyhopathic-jon-aegon-season-8-premiere/

Thanks for the link, great read, my favorite part: 

“Sam is now very, very aware that Dany is very imbalanced and very volatile and in quite a dangerous state with people,” Bradley told TheWrap in an interview Monday. “He sees with his own eyes, and is kind of connecting this to his own set of emotions, just how cold she is and how sacrificial she is in other people’s lives. And he learns the lengths that she’ll go to if somebody decides to disobey her and how her quest for power seems to know no moral code when it comes to that.”

When I saw the executions I was OMFG, this is going to be big, but everybody else (mostly here) seemed to think that it would be of not big consequence because Sam wouldn't care at all, but to me it was big because it showed that Daenerys and her dragons were a huge danger to anybody who dare oppose her. Honestly Daenerys for as arrogant as she can be has tried to reign herself a little bit in the North, she is on her good girl behavior , but at this point I am not sure she wouldn't have already dracarys some Northern lords and Sansa right along with them at this point, then her explanation would be that she gave them the option to "bend the knee/respect her or die" and then Jon would have been "That is okay my love, at least you gave them an option so they chose to die, Sansa who?, let's go for a joyride" 

[RoberTee]

26 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Jon found a use for Janos Slynt.  Janos rejected  that opportunity and Jon executed him. 

Dany found a use for Randyll and Dickon, and Tyrion suggested another. They rejected both opportunities and Dany executed them.

Ultimately, Jon and Dany found the same use for Janos Slynt and Randyll Tarly.

So I don't understand, why, when they react in the same way, Jon is praised and Dany is condemned.

Janos Slynt was a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, a committment for life and he owned his loyalty to the elected Commander. He disobeyed a direct order and that is treason. And the punishment for treason is dead. He broke a clear law with a clear punishment. 

Tarly swore no allegiance to Daenerys, she can call herself Queen all she wants but until she takes the Iron Throne and is recognized as the official ruler, she's no more of a Queen than the pox hooker Bronn was banging. I thought she was against slavery, but what is "bend the knee or burn alive" if not another form of slavery? Those soldiers were not given the choice to follow her (something she allegedly gave the Unsullied). Now you can say "but that's how you conquer a Kingdom"... And that's exactly what the Targaryens, Baratheons, Starks and Lannisters have been doing for years: killing their enemies to ensure their claim to the throne. But I thought she came to break the wheel (her words, not mine). 

Edited April 16, 2019 by RoberTee

[MV713]

On 4/14/2019 at 10:46 PM, ICantDoThatDave said:

I freeze-framed it and it looks like a short spear which can eject the tip as a projectile. Presumably made of dragonglass.

OH maybe to kill the ice dragon?

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, MV713 said:

OH maybe to kill the ice dragon?

Her face lit up when she saw the dragons roll in.  Arya probably fancies herself riding a dragon like her heroine Visenya Targaryen who she described to Tywin Lannister.  While riding a dragon, projectile weapons are probably very helpful.

[Constantinople]

17 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

Janos Slynt was a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, a committment for life and he owned his loyalty to the elected Commander. He disobeyed a direct order and that is treason. And the punishment for treason is dead. He broke a clear law with a clear punishment. 

Tarly swore no allegiance to Daenerys...

Janos Slynt didn't choose to become a member of the Night's Watch. He was forced to join.

I swore an oath to House Tyrell - Randyll Tarly

And the Tyrells pledged their allegiance to Daenerys.

[Constantinople]

31 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

What I'd love to know is if the North, in the same why they freely chose Jon to be their leader/KITN, now chose independence from Daenerys, what will her reaction be?

A few members of the Northern elite chose Jon in an "election" in which no other candidates were permitted.

That does not meet my definition of the North freely choosing Jon

[AnnaL]

13 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yes, Jon's still seeing his sisters based on who they were years ago - but to be fair, that's not exactly unusual when family members have been apart for a long time. Still, he does need to widen his tunnel vision.
 

Seems like you have a popular opinion 🙂

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-s8-e1-recap/ 

"He seems weirdly determined to keep his family locked in the amber of memory; never mind that Arya is now a deadlier fighter and Sansa a vastly superior politician, he still thinks of them as a prepubescent tomboy and a petulant, swooning teen. "Sansa thinks she's smarter than everyone," he harrumphs to Arya in the Godswood, unable to see what is obvious to Arya and the rest of the world: Sansa actually is smarter than everyone"

Many of his mistakes could have been avoided or minimized if he would have listened to his sister but he has never been willing to listen to her and has always have a condescending attitude towards her. Sansa has proven her loyalty when she stood by him and prevent the Northern Lords prom demoting Jon and naming her QITN, yet I have yet to see one instance when Jon has been loyal to Sansa. He goes about mocking her "thinking she is smart" , the one positive things about that encounter with Arya was the fact that Arya set the record straight and told Jon to his face that "Sansa was the smarter person she knew", she might not be the smarter person, but to Arya she is, that really was an important moment for me. I can care less about Jon and Daenerys romance or who ends up on the Iron Throne, who marries who, I am far more invested on the Stark children remaining a pack. Jon used to be part of that pack but it is obvious that the story or D&D are taking him in a different direction.   

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

She really didn't, but she gave them choices; they weren't there for it.  Also, Dickon is the only person to blame for his execution. 

Dickon:  "You're going to have to kill me, too!" 
Daenerys: 

As the Breaker of Chains, Daenerys is not about keeping prisoners any more than she's about keeping slaves.  She wants free men who will fight for her, as free men, and who want to live in the new world she plans to create.  She says as much in the execution scene, where she tells Tyrion "I'm not here to put people into chains."

Also, Randyll Tarly is a proud xenophobe.  He only supports Cersei over Daenerys because Daenerys is foreign; he cares nothing for what Cersei did to the proud family he has served his entire life and worse, he led the attack personally on Highgarden.  Boy, bye- you're not what we need in our new wheel-less world.

BUT -

Let's say they did want to take Lord Tarly and his heir as "valuable prisoners" (which, come on, can we really see Cersei trading *the women who killed her only daughter* for some shitheel who betrayed Olenna Tyrell and his stupid son with a stupider name?  They're only valuable prisoners if the other side cares, and Cersei DGAF.) 

But let's say they did, here's the next issue:  there were a significant number of other losing-side soldiers who refused to bend the knee who she would've also needed to imprison if she spared R&D's lives.  So she's not imprisoning 2, she's imprisoning... 20?  50?  Anyway, they all conveniently knelt after their leaders were seared to a delightful Medium Rare, and voila! No prisoners to worry about.

Great post.   

Dany was of no mind and in no position to take prisoners.  

Great point about the Randyll and Rickon Dickon (Ha!)  The only reason Jaime Lanister had any value as a prisoner was that he was family. 

I found Randyll's xenophobia against Dany to be a bit odd.  She was born in Westeros and her family ruled the 7 Kingdoms for hundreds of years.

I do get his fear of the Dothraki.  What are 40,000 barbarian warriors, who make their living pillaging, plundering and raping going to do when the war is over?  Maybe horse ranchers?  I would like to know Dany's post conquest plans for them.  

The Unsullied wouldn't concern me so much if I lived in Westeros, as they are well disciplined, and they don't have cocks, so they won't be raping anyone. 

[Constantinople]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I found Randyll's xenophobia against Dany to be a bit odd.  She was born in Westeros and her family ruled the 7 Kingdoms for hundreds of years

I find it even odder given that Randyll fought for the Daenery's father, the Mad King, during the Rebellion.

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The Unsullied wouldn't concern me so much if I lived in Westeros, as they are well disciplined, and they don't have cocks, so they won't be raping anyone.

You don't need a cock to rape someone, but I'm optimistic about their discipline.

[Constantinople]

Ironic that Little Lord Umber ended up as White Walker Folk Art.
He might still be alive if Jon hadn't overruled Sansa's proposals to deprive the Umbers of their ancestral lands.  It's particularly ironic given that some viewers believe Sansa wanted to kill the kid.
But you know what they say about good intentions.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Constantinople

[dirtypop90]

9 hours ago, Nanrad said:

We're not saying she should say nothing, we're saying she should wait until they are in private, so that they show a public united front.

Sansa bears more weight for this distrust. Why? Because she refuses to explain her concerns in a way that makes allows others to take her seriously. She hassled him about doing BotB, then hassled him about getting more houses to join even while houses turned them away (someone can correct me on this), then didn't give a concrete example of Ramsey's depravity. Finally, didn't tell Jon there could be another army coming through.

Also, their old dynamic was her treating him like crap.

Speaking in front of everyone doesn't get his attention clearly. Telling Jon things in black and white does. Jon doesn't take her seriously nor does he believe she's the smartest person because she hasn't done anything to show that to him. 

My issue with all of this is that I don't think Jon is listening to her in private.  He's made it clear he doesn't value her opinion.  And, if he's still holding on to beef from their childhood after all that has happened, says more about him than Sansa.  Sansa was a little girl.  She isn't any more.  

and what has Jon done to show Sansa he is smart?  Nothing.  But she's just suppose to go with the flow.

I don't think Sansa not telling him everything warrants him not listening to her.  Who tells everyone everything?  Not Jon...Not Dany.  Let's see if Jon is going to run and tell Sansa he's a Targ... I think it should be clear to Jon that Sansa is working for the good of her family and her home.  Why wouldn't he trust her?  What does he think she  might be planning?  Does he think she might be trying to rule and lead him to his death?  That's laughable.  I don't think Jon distrusts Sansa.  I think he just doesn't value her opinion, as he's shown multiple times.  By contrast, for all Sansa's fault, I do think she values and respects Jon.  She's at least said good things about him to Brienne, and stood up for him while he was gone, and she's told him she has faith in him and he's a good King.  She just doesn't agree with him all the time.  If they had a different dynamic, maybe she would stop by his chambers to express her thoughts before or instead of doing it publicly.  But I don't think Jon has created space for her to do so.  I just don't believe if Sansa went to him privately to talk about food supply he would do anything except shoo her away.  So I actually put more responsibility on big brother, ex-KON for their dynamic.  

And she DOES get his attention and that of the northern lords.  Whether Jon listens is another matter.  

Edited to add: with all that said, I get them both. I think their dynamic make sense for them. Sansa spilling her guts to Jon and Jon being all ears to Sansa would be really unrealistic for these characters.  I also just love their scenes. If they were all lovey-dovey “we are a [stark] family,” they would be far less interesting to watch lol 

Edited April 16, 2019 by dirtypop90

[GodsBeloved]

17 minutes ago, AnnaL said:

I can care less about Jon and Daenerys romance or who ends up on the Iron Throne, who marries who, I am far more invested on the Stark children remaining a pack. 

Me too. I don't care who sits on the throne. All I want is for the remaining Starks to still be breathing and I'd love for the North to be independent, something I've wanted since Robb was crowned KITN.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

But can't Sam produce the writing that lead him to the truth about Jon? I don't remember what the writing said exactly but wouldn't that be proof? 

I suppose any old book could be forged - and Sam is a person who would have a definite motive to forge a book that would delegitimize Dany and make Jon his BFF the king.

Not to mention, that book only says that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. It says nothing about them having a child, much less proving that the child grew up to be Jon. There's only Bran's word for that...and weird abilities or not, as his brother Bran would have a reason to lie for Jon's benefit. Neither Bran nor Sam can be considered objective, reliable sources.

[go4luca]

On 4/14/2019 at 7:46 PM, ICantDoThatDave said:

I freeze-framed it and it looks like a short spear which can eject the tip as a projectile. Presumably made of dragonglass.

I also freeze framed it because it was making me nuts not to be able to study it longer.  I believe the spear portion will contain dragonglass.  There is conjecture that the other half will contain valerian steel but doubt Gendry has that on hand.

[Drogo]

28 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

50 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I found Randyll's xenophobia against Dany to be a bit odd.  She was born in Westeros and her family ruled the 7 Kingdoms for hundreds of years

I find it even odder given that Randyll fought for the Daenery's father, the Mad King, during the Rebellion.

He didn't hate Daenerys because she was a Targaryen, he hated her because she was a foreigner who consorted with former slaves and savages: 

There are no easy choices in war. Say what you will about your sister, she was born in Westeros. She's lived here all her life. You, on the other hand, murdered your own father and chose to support a foreign invader. One with no ties to this land. An army of savages at her back.

[Gummo]

1 minute ago, go4luca said:

There is conjecture that the other half will contain valerian steel but doubt Gendry has that on hand

Arya does.

[go4luca]

Just now, Gummo said:

Arya does.

True but Gendry didn't take that dagger.

[RoberTee]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Janos Slynt didn't choose to become a member of the Night's Watch. He was forced to join.

I swore an oath to House Tyrell - Randyll Tarly

And the Tyrells pledged their allegiance to Daenerys.

You're missing the point. Daenerys whole campaign rests on her people following her freely. The Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Second Sons, Missandei, Sir Barristan, Sir Jorah, Tyrion, Varys... They all chose her and they all make a point out of it. But as soon as someone refuses to follow her, she goes all Dracarys on their asses. Where's the freedom in that? She says she's not here to put men in chains, but then the other option is to burn them alive... 

[FormerMod-a1]

Jon may not be listening to Sansa, or anyone for that matter, but that's because he knows none of it matters.  Absolutely none of it.  The AOTD is coming and will be there very soon.  They'll be lucky if even a small fraction of the people in the North survive.  It's quite possible everyone will die, he knows this.  None of it matters at all. 

[go4luca]

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

I suppose any old book could be forged - and Sam is a person who would have a definite motive to forge a book that would delegitimize Dany and make Jon his BFF the king.

Not to mention, that book only says that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. It says nothing about them having a child, much less proving that the child grew up to be Jon. There's only Bran's word for that...and weird abilities or not, as his brother Bran would have a reason to lie for Jon's benefit. Neither Bran nor Sam can be considered objective, reliable sources.

I hope something else comes to light, an unanticipated surprise maybe, that will prove Jon's genealogy.   Whether it comes from a child of the forest, Jon surviving fire or something between him and the NK.  There does seem to be a link between the two.  No clue yet how this will come about or even if it will.  But I hope it does.  Would love a surprise none of us have thought of, come to light.  I can't forget the Lord of Light had Jon brought back for a reason.

Or maybe it's the Jon Snow fan in me letting too many theories run rampant in my headbone, lol.

[DarkRaichu]

10 hours ago, dr pepper said:

Half check. Nudity is still not equal opportunity.

They are all equally humans so still check.

[Calamity Jane]

3 hours ago, terrymct said:

There's a book at the Citadel that has the notes of the maester who was at the wedding of Jon's parents.   Was that one of the books that Sam made off with?

That's half of the proof.  Howland Reed can attest to the other half, namely that Ned was at the Tower of Joy just after Lyanna gave birth and that Jon is the baby Lyanna gave birth to.  

[RoberTee]

This is a world where hair color was enough to prove Cersei's kids were not Robert's... 

[Calamity Jane]

10 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I hope something else comes to light, an unanticipated surprise maybe, that will prove Jon's genealogy.   Whether it comes from a child of the forest, Jon surviving fire or something between him and the NK.  There does seem to be a link between the two.  No clue yet how this will come about or even if it will.  But I hope it does.  Would love a surprise none of us have thought of, come to light.  I can't forget the Lord of Light had Jon brought back for a reason.

Or maybe it's the Jon Snow fan in me letting too many theories run rampant in my headbone, lol.

Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy with Ned and knows that the baby Lyanna gave birth to was raised by Ned as his illegitimate son.  That's pretty good proof  in a pre-DNA world.

[go4luca]

3 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

That's half of the proof.  Howland Reed can attest to the other half, namely that Ned was at the Tower of Joy just after Lyanna gave birth and that Jon is the baby Lyanna gave birth to.  

Ah.  Forgot about him. 

[Drogo]

9 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

You're missing the point. Daenerys whole campaign rests on her people following her freely. The Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Second Sons, Missandei, Sir Barristan, Sir Jorah, Tyrion, Varys... They all chose her and they all make a point out of it. But as soon as someone refuses to follow her, she goes all Dracarys on their asses. Where's the freedom in that? She says she's not here to put men in chains, but then the other option is to burn them alive...  

Daenerys isn't throwing up liberty bells and peace signs while she's at war. 

Determining who someone will be as a leader of their kingdom during peacetime by the decisions they make during wartime on a battlefield against sworn enemies who will not yield is apples and pineapples.

The country she wants to build will be full of free men, women, and children.  She isn't finished building it yet, because right now it's full of a bunch of lords and ladies who feel their lives are more important than their subjects'... oh, and it's also getting full of ravenous marching dead people who need her attention. 

[go4luca]

2 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Howland Reed was at the Tower of Joy with Ned and knows that the baby Lyanna gave birth to was raised by Ned as his illegitimate son.  That's pretty good proof  in a pre-DNA world.

We were crossing posts.  Just acknowledged your other post pointing out Howland Reed. 😉

[Leroux]

35 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Me too. I don't care who sits on the throne. All I want is for the remaining Starks to still be breathing and I'd love for the North to be independent, something I've wanted since Robb was crowned KITN.

Ditto 

If anything good comes off the revelation of Jon's birth IMO would be the fact that (even though he doesn't want the Iron Throne) he could negotiate several things before he renounces his claim and marries Daenerys, one of those things should definitely be the North's independence. Rob died for it and it would be a great thing that would redeem Jon in my eyes. 

With an independent north, but allied with the Iron Throne via Jon's half Stark origins, the Starks for sure could have a much better relationship with Daenerys, provided that she is a fair queen and doesn't uses her dragons to burn more people. Maybe with enough time maybe they will become close to her as well. 

I also can care less about Jon and what he does in KL, I think he would be miserable but hey you get what you get. Other than that, Sansa at Lady of WF and Arya as Lady Baratheon, all the while with Bran as the 3ER. They would remain a pack and that is all that matters. 

[go4luca]

1 minute ago, Leroux said:

Ditto 

If anything good comes off the revelation of Jon's birth IMO would be the fact that (even though he doesn't want the Iron Throne) he could negotiate several things before he renounces his claim and marries Daenerys, one of those things should definitely be the North's independence. Rob died for it and it would be a great thing that would redeem Jon in my eyes. 

I don't see this happening.  Maybe it's just me, but Jon doesn't seem the type to marry his own Aunt.  Just watching the wheels turning inside his head when Sam breaks the news to him as to his true origins of birth, you knew he was connecting dots and this was part of a myriad of things going through his mind.  At least I think it was.

[GodsBeloved]

16 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

This is a world where hair color was enough to prove Cersei's kids were not Robert's... 

So true!

[screamin]

13 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I don't see this happening.  Maybe it's just me, but Jon doesn't seem the type to marry his own Aunt.  Just watching the wheels turning inside his head when Sam breaks the news to him as to his true origins of birth, you knew he was connecting dots and this was part of a myriad of things going through his mind.  At least I think it was.

If Dany is pregnant, I think Jon's vow NEVER to engender a bastard will take precedence over his worry about the ickiness of marrying one's aunt. I believe in medieval times, marrying one's aunt wasn't that big a deal, in any case.

[izabella]

3 hours ago, Gummo said:

Cersei's been Queen for a couple of years now, correct? Where are the courtiers, the functionaries, the palace bustle? It still looks like Kings Landing is deserted, that all the battles were just a week ago, instead of years. She should have a functioning court by now, is what I'm saying. Instead it looks like it's just her and Qlyburn (or however you spell his name) wandering around looking pensive.

Yes, so why, why, why is Cersei still wearing that ugly wig?!  Her hair should have grown back quite a bit by now!  Jamie's hair is a lot longer than it was when he left Cersei to go to Winterfell - her hair is shorter than his now. 

[Clanstarling]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

If Dany is pregnant, I think Jon's vow NEVER to engender a bastard will take precedence over his worry about the ickiness of marrying one's aunt. I believe in medieval times, marrying one's aunt wasn't that big a deal, in any case.

Certainly not with Targaryens.

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Yes, so why, why, why is Cersei still wearing that ugly wig?!  Her hair should have grown back quite a bit by now!  Jamie's hair is a lot longer than it was when he left Cersei to go to Winterfell - her hair is shorter than his now. 

Maybe she just likes it short. 

[go4luca]

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Certainly not with Targaryens.

Exactly.  But Jon was raised as a Stark, not a Targaryen. 

[Constantinople]

36 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

You're missing the point. Daenerys whole campaign rests on her people following her freely. The Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Second Sons, Missandei, Sir Barristan, Sir Jorah, Tyrion, Varys... They all chose her and they all make a point out of it. But as soon as someone refuses to follow her, she goes all Dracarys on their asses. Where's the freedom in that? She says she's not here to put men in chains, but then the other option is to burn them alive... 

Where does it say her whole campaign rests on people freely following her?

The Unsullied followed her after she freed them.  Which required murdering all of the masters in Astapor.  The Unsullied didn't choose to murder all of the masters, they were ordered to murder all of them.

The Seconds Sons are a mercenary army who were paid by Daenerys and who took her side only after 1 of their leaders murdered the other 2 leaders.  Did those other 2 leaders freely choose that, and did Daenerys ever punish what's his name for murdering them?

The Dothraki chose Daenerys after she torched all of the Khals and emerged unscathed from a raging bonfire. Did the Khals freely choose that?

And her followers expect people to die as a result of following her. If you want to sit on the throne your ancestors built, you must win it. That will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done - Jorah Mormont

I don't recall anyone objecting, including Tyrion and the rest of the peace train, when, after the Battle of Slavers Bay, Grey Worm beheaded 2 of the 3 masters who went to speak with Daenerys before the battle. Yet now Daenerys is held to impossibly high standards when she returns to Westeros.  Standards so high even St Jon hasn't met them

Cersei murdered Randyll Tarly's then Queen, Margaery Tyrell, and Randyll then chose to rebel against his overlords, the Tyrells. As the Tyrells' overlord, Daenerys had a duty to protect them, and failing that, to avenge them (that's what medieval rulers do).  If you don't do that your followers tend to sour on you (see how little Robb Stark is regarded in the North). Even then, Daenerys offered Randyll far more generous terms than she did to her previous adversaries,

[Bryce Lynch]

On 4/14/2019 at 10:26 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Here's that clip of Cersei meeting Harry Strickland:

I wonder is Cersei would have named hers Stampy.  

I bet she would  have given The Mountain one too, as a lap pet.  

[Efzee]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

With the Tarly's what was Dany supposed to do with them? They didn't have the room or time to worry about prisoners. She couldn't let them go and have them run back to Cersei. That would show Cersei she was weak and give Cersei her allies back. She didn't have much of a choice. 

And Cersei would've been like "Randall who?" if Dany had taken them prisoner with the intend to trade them for the woman who killed Cersei's daughter.

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Indeed. If she cared to spare his feelings and wanted to tell a version of the truth Dany could have said “They faced me on the field of battle and they died.”

Technically true, but in Westerosi culture there seems a huge difference between dying in battle and being executed. On the battlefield it’s normally kill or be killed and father and son fought together on the losing side, their dying is tragic, but not a deliberate targeting of them; anyone on the opposing side might have killed them lest they be killed by them.

It feels more “fair” in a strange way.

Execution though is deliberate and ordered by the person in charge against someone at their mercy.

And I think that is actually the point. The Starks have all executed people too. Ned did, Robb did, Jon did, Sansa did, Arya did. But they weren’t executed simply for being on the losing side. Ned executed a Night Watch deserter who knew the punishment for doing so. Robb executed Lord Karstark for murdering two boys, Jon executed Slynt for refusing, not once, but repeatedly, the lawful commands of the elected Lord Commander, despite knowing the consequences for it (he also previously fled from battle and hid in a cellar when the Wildlings attacked). He also executed members of a conspiracy for the attempted (technically successful but for magic) murder of the Lord Commander. Sansa executed Ramsey for the sadistic murders of many people, including her brother. Arya and Sansa executed Littlefinger for multiple crimes including the murder of Jon and Lysa Arryn.

But Ned was executed for false crimes (and going back on the deal made to spare his family where he’d take the Black). Stannis burned alive those who would not convert to the Lord of Light or kneel. He was willing to let Mel sacrifice his nephew  to bring him victory. He let her burn his daughter at the stake for the promise of victory.

Dany crucified Lords at random without knowing or caring for their specific guilt (collective punishment is by definition unjust). She later threw a man to her dragons to burned and eaten alive and even stated afterwards she didn’t know if he was innocent or guilty... all she cared about was scaring the rest of them into line. She burned her prisoners the Tarley’s alive because they wouldn’t kneel to her in order to terrify the rest of the prisoners into kneeling.

And that I think is the critical thing... the motive of every Stark execution is to punish a crime and the one killed is the one who actually committed the crime. Dany executes people to sow terror in her enemies without any sense of fairness.

There were plenty of other men who were refusing to kneel, but Dany singled out Lord Tarley knowing his shocking death would scare the rest into line. She threw a man whose guilt she wasn’t certain of to her dragons for the message it would send to the rest. She crucified random Masters for the message it would send the rest.

That’s not justice. That’s tyranny and terror. She’s not just more of the same... she’s more of the worst of the lot.

Even the actors think Dany is supposed to be seen as a psychopath at this point.

https://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-sam-daenerys-pscyhopathic-jon-aegon-season-8-premiere/

Whoa there! Sansa did not execute Ramsey. She killed/murdered him. An execution is done cleanly and, generally, swiftly with a weapon like Ned/Robb/Jon's sword or Arya's knife. Sansa also did not "execute" Ramsey for the crimes he committed against everyone in Winterfell. She murdered him in vengeance. She even smirked as she walked away. You've never seen Robb, Ned or Jon smirk after they had to execute a man. Arya didn't even smirk after executing Little Finger, unlike the times she murdered people.

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Pretty much everything you said.

Jon doesn't do council meetings.  The closest thing was when they received the "invitation" from Dany inviting him to Dragonstone to bend the knee.   He discussed it with Sansa and Davos.  Sansa said it was a trap, Davos more or less agreedd and Jon decided he would not go.   Later,  he gets a note from Sam and in the middle of the hall, tells the Lords AND Sansa (for the first time) that he IS going to Dragonstone???? WTF?????

When Lord Royce advocated publicly for destroying the Keeps of the Karstarks, Sansa wisely thought they should make use of the Lands, making them rewards for those who have been the most loyal (this would have been a wise maneuver in Kings Landing).  Jon chose to show the line of demarcation by saying no.  

I don't think Jon values the kind of experience Sansa has.  To Jon, when your fighting on the same side, your on the same side.  He's spent the past few years with Pip, Grenn, Dolores Edd and Samwell Tarly.   

Sansa has spent the last few years with Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion, Margaery, Olenna, Loras, Lyssa Arryn, Robin Arryn, Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton and Walda Frey.  Was anyone in her circles ever on anyone's side but their own?  I don't think Sansa knows HOW to be open and honest anymore.

Sansa makes Jon want to wring her neck, but I have know doubt that he loves her and wants her safe.  But he doesn't understand her.  And I think the reason she has a seat at the table is because of the Vale.  Lord Royce really is there for her.  He disdains Dany and her Lannister hand.  He is disenchanted with Jon.  But we frequently see he and Sansa talking.

I actually find this character dynamic very believable, even if I tend to see Sansa's side more.  Jon's tunnel vision is set on the pending invasion, if they survive, he's going to be damn glad Sansa was concerned about food (assuming a solution can be found), it would be a shame if those who survived the white wallkers starved to death afterwards.   And who knows what state the Unsullied and Dothraki will be in after the AOD.  Will Dany still have an army?  Enough of one to take Kings Landing?   She may want Jon to get Sansa to use her influence with the Vale on her behalf.

I just feel Sansa brings things of note to the overall table and has earned the right to speak up.  Though I notice she saved most of her ire for Jon, for when they were in private.   I had to LOL when they were in the Great Hall and Lyanna Mormont went in on him and Jon immediately looked at Sansa.  She remained composed but as a viewer you know she was fist pumping to every word.

Jon was the king, Sansa was his sister. Having council meetings is a courtesey, not a necessity as king. He can do whatever the hell he wants. If he'd run his every decision past Sansa the Northerners would have complained that they'd chosen him, not Sansa, as their monarch.

You do not publicly undermine a monarch, unless you want to  live out your life in a cell, be executed or dracarysed. 

The reason Sansa was undermining him and the other lords were merely "questioning" him, was that she was his sister and seated at his side. She was his heir/replacement. They're supposed to be a united front. Any concerns Sansa had should have been brought up in private afterwards, the way Dany talked to Jon about Sansa's attitude towards her rather than saying "I don't like your sister's attitude" during the meeting in the great hall with everyone present.

And if that's hard for you to understand, then maybe you should try to publicly undermine your boss during a meeting with stakeholders, or a teacher etc.

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

She really didn't, but she gave them choices; they weren't there for it.  Also, Dickon is the only person to blame for his execution. 

Dickon:  "You're going to have to kill me, too!" 
Daenerys: 

As the Breaker of Chains, Daenerys is not about keeping prisoners any more than she's about keeping slaves.  She wants free men who will fight for her, as free men, and who want to live in the new world she plans to create.  She says as much in the execution scene, where she tells Tyrion "I'm not here to put people into chains."

Also, Randyll Tarly is a proud xenophobe.  He only supports Cersei over Daenerys because Daenerys is foreign; he cares nothing for what Cersei did to the proud family he has served his entire life and worse, he led the attack personally on Highgarden.  Boy, bye- you're not what we need in our new wheel-less world.

BUT -

Let's say they did want to take Lord Tarly and his heir as "valuable prisoners" (which, come on, can we really see Cersei trading *the women who killed her only daughter* for some shitheel who betrayed Olenna Tyrell and his stupid son with a stupider name?  They're only valuable prisoners if the other side cares, and Cersei DGAF.) 

But let's say they did, here's the next issue:  there were a significant number of other losing-side soldiers who refused to bend the knee who she would've also needed to imprison if she spared R&D's lives.  So she's not imprisoning 2, she's imprisoning... 20?  50?  Anyway, they all conveniently knelt after their leaders were seared to a delightful Medium Rare, and voila! No prisoners to worry about.

All of this.

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

My issue with all of this is that I don't think Jon is listening to her in private.  He's made it clear he doesn't value her opinion.  And, if he's still holding on to beef from their childhood after all that has happened, says more about him than Sansa.  Sansa was a little girl.  She isn't any more.  

and what has Jon done to show Sansa he is smart?  Nothing.  But she's just suppose to go with the flow.

I don't think Sansa not telling him everything warrants him not listening to her.  Who tells everyone everything?  Not Jon...Not Dany.  Let's see if Jon is going to run and tell Sansa he's a Targ... I think it should be clear to Jon that Sansa is working for the good of her family and her home.  Why wouldn't he trust her?  What does he think she  might be planning?  Does he think she might be trying to rule and lead him to his death?  That's laughable.  I don't think Jon distrusts Sansa.  I think he just doesn't value her opinion, as he's shown multiple times.  By contrast, for all Sansa's fault, I do think she values and respects Jon.  She's at least said good things about him to Brienne, and stood up for him while he was gone, and she's told him she has faith in him and he's a good King.  She just doesn't agree with him all the time.  If they had a different dynamic, maybe she would stop by his chambers to express her thoughts before or instead of doing it publicly.  But I don't think Jon has created space for her to do so.  I just don't believe if Sansa went to him privately to talk about food supply he would do anything except shoo her away.  So I actually put more responsibility on big brother, ex-KON for their dynamic.  

And she DOES get his attention and that of the northern lords.  Whether Jon listens is another matter.  

Edited to add: with all that said, I get them both. I think their dynamic make sense for them. Sansa spilling her guts to Jon and Jon being all ears to Sansa would be really unrealistic for these characters.  I also just love their scenes. If they were all lovey-dovey “we are a [stark] family,” they would be far less interesting to watch lol 

1 hour ago, RoberTee said:

You're missing the point. Daenerys whole campaign rests on her people following her freely. The Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Second Sons, Missandei, Sir Barristan, Sir Jorah, Tyrion, Varys... They all chose her and they all make a point out of it. But as soon as someone refuses to follow her, she goes all Dracarys on their asses. Where's the freedom in that? She says she's not here to put men in chains, but then the other option is to burn them alive... 

55 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Daenerys isn't throwing up liberty bells and peace signs while she's at war. 

Determining who someone will be as a leader of their kingdom during peacetime by the decisions they make during wartime on a battlefield against sworn enemies who will not yield is apples and pineapples.

The country she wants to build will be full of free men, women, and children.  She isn't finished building it yet, because right now it's full of a bunch of lords and ladies who feel their lives are more important than their subjects'... oh, and it's also getting full of ravenous marching dead people who need her attention. 

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Where does it say her whole campaign rests on people freely following her?

The Unsullied followed her after she freed them.  Which required murdering all of the masters in Astapor.  The Unsullied didn't choose to murder all of the masters, they were ordered to murder all of them.

The Seconds Sons are a mercenary army who were paid by Daenerys and who took her side only after 1 of their leaders murdered the other 2 leaders.  Did those other 2 leaders freely choose that, and did Daenerys ever punish what's his name for murdering them?

The Dothraki chose Daenerys after she torched all of the Khals and emerged unscathed from a raging bonfire. Did the Khals freely choose that?

And her followers expect people to die as a result of following her. If you want to sit on the throne your ancestors built, you must win it. That will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done - Jorah Mormont

I don't recall anyone objecting, including Tyrion and the rest of the peace train, when, after the Battle of Slavers Bay, Grey Worm beheaded 2 of the 3 masters who went to speak with Daenerys before the battle. Yet now Daenerys is held to impossibly high standards when she returns to Westeros.  Standards so high even St Jon hasn't met them

Cersei murdered Randyll Tarly's then Queen, Margaery Tyrell, and Randyll then chose to rebel against his overlords, the Tyrells. As the Tyrells' overlord, Daenerys had a duty to protect them, and failing that, to avenge them (that's what medieval rulers do).  If you don't do that your followers tend to sour on you (see how little Robb Stark is regarded in the North). Even then, Daenerys offered Randyll far more generous terms than she did to her previous adversaries,

Agreed.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, AnnaL said:

I am far more invested on the Stark children remaining a pack. Jon used to be part of that pack but it is obvious that the story or D&D are taking him in a different direction.   

Point of clarification; They're STARTING Jon in a different direction. As I've said before drama is all about reversals and D&D are damned near clockwork on having characters move from one pole to the other over the season.

If Jon is starting on a bit of the outs with his family and the North while on good terms with Dany, make no mistake, the point of the season will be Jon learning to rely on his family and breaking with Dany (he may have Targ blood, but he's a Northerner in head and heart... he's not going to marry his already horrifically inbred aunt.* Even if he can never prove it to anyone else, that ship was sunk by Sam's reveal and even the music in the parentage reveal scene agreed; it was the Jon/Dany romance theme except in an entirely minor chord vs. the major chords used previously).

The Army of the Dead isn't enough to carry the whole season either. They're entirely one-note. You fight them to the death, flee or you die. There's no negotiation and therefore no drama beyond what the human characters bring to it.

That means the reverse of Jon and Dany will end up being the actual drama of the season... the Night King is just the pressure being applied to force action. Jon's arc is to learn to trust his family and with their help overcome the threats to them; both Ice AND Fire.

* Seriously, people give Joffrey grief and he's just one generation of inbreeding. Dany is the result of multiple generations of it. Her family tree (family ladder more accurately) is so messed up that not only is she Jon's aunt, she's also his first cousin once removed AND his second cousin once removed. Genetically, they're about on par with full siblings (44% shared DNA).

[QuinnM]

1 hour ago, go4luca said:

I also freeze framed it because it was making me nuts not to be able to study it longer.  I believe the spear portion will contain dragonglass.  There is conjecture that the other half will contain valerian steel but doubt Gendry has that on hand.

My new obsession - what the hell?

It is a projectile as opposed to a handheld weapon.  So is it in two pieces so that it will be easier to carry or so that you can reload the grip?  Or both?  Or is it like a fishing spear where the grip increases velocity and accuracy?  We know that she plans way ahead (killing the waif) and that she practices the plan. So we can see the weapon and for now we are guessing her plan.  

Edited April 16, 2019 by QuinnM

[go4luca]

11 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

My new obsession - what the hell?

It is a projectile as opposed to a handheld weapon.  So is it in two pieces so that it will be easier to carry or so that you can reload the grip?  Or both?  Or is it like a fishing spear where the grip increases velocity and accuracy?  We know that she plans way ahead (killing the waif) and that she practices the plan. So we can see the weapon and for now we are guessing her plan.  

If you can get past the speed rambling of the hostess, you may enjoy this:

[QuinnM]

Quote

If you can get past the speed rambling of the hostess, you may enjoy this:

Thoroughly enjoyed it.  Thanks

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

* Seriously, people give Joffrey grief and he's just one generation of inbreeding. Dany is the result of multiple generations of it. Her family tree (family ladder more accurately) is so messed up that not only is she Jon's aunt, she's also his first cousin once removed AND his second cousin once removed. Genetically, they're about on par with full siblings (44% shared DNA).

This got me thinking.  How did 23 and Me not do a GOT themed ad or at least get Kit Harrington to be in an ad.