S08.E14: The End or the Beginning

[LuvMyShows]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I don't know that I even remember some of that stuff but I did come away feeling like Will is one of those quiet people that actually gets away with being selfish and unkind just because people don't even notice how they are really being abusive.  They mistake the quiet, placid exterior for being flexible and agreeable and that's not the case.  Then they don't even see some of the negative behavior.  I'm pretty adept at spotting people like this being a card-carrying introvert myself and having experience with others like him.  I never thought Will was that great of a person to be honest.  Oh yeah he has lofty ambitions, yada, yada, but I don't remember him showing Jasmine any kind of human warmth or kindness on camera other than sharing some humor with her here and there.  Even in bed he was giving off "stay away" vibes.  I got the feeling she wanted to get closer to him, but it was like he was detached and checked out right away.  So the experts were right that he didn't put in any effort.  He had decided pretty early on that Jasmine was not for him and just mentally checked out and waited out the 8 weeks.  Kind of like what Danielle did with David in that season.  And I think that behavior is pretty unkind, to be honest.  There are other ways to handle that situation with grace, but Will was not emotionally mature enough to do it.  I found him to be somewhat clueless in relationships.  I think I can see the reason he's still single.  Of course I also see the reasons Jasmine is still single too.

Please be careful with the word 'abusive'.  Nothing in what you wrote supported use of that word.

43 minutes ago, watchingtvaddict said:

I feel like the "experts" are failing the contestants. They need to explain to Jasmine and Will why they paired them together and help to interpret what their spouses are saying. Jasmine wanted a man to support her. Will seems to be a very caring and thoughtful man. Jasmine sees support as monetary. If the experts led them in exercises that helped them see a different way of being maybe they could be together. But, what happened is Jasmine believe Will wasn't driven (saw him as lazy) and Will saw Jasmine as a gold digger. 

Love this idea!  But, uh, never gonna happen because 1) we've seen the experts pair people because they look good together, so their reasons are too lame to be the subject of an otherwise valid exercise, and 2) unfortunately, it appears that the experts pair for drama not longevity of marriage.  

Speaking of which, I think it's allowed for me to mention this here, since others may be like me and not check the Social Media, Spoilers and Speculation thread (where I'm guessing this appeared), but Jason and Cortney from season 1 are getting divorced.  Very, very sad to me, because they seemed to genuinely be in love and trying to make the marriage work.  Rather than contrived drama like the kind that comes from explanation #2 above, it seems like their struggles were organic to the marriage's growth and development, and to me was quite compelling.  

[Ilovepie]

42 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

In the real world it would be expected Will should be upfront or walk away immediately, but this show isn't the real world. The matching, filming, production in their ears, & editing up the wazoo skews not just how we see the people & events but also how the participants are going to react in these situations, which I bet is probably much different than they would had it been natural & private.

Exactly. Which is why, in the real world, Will and Jasmine would have been done after the money convo in Costa Rica or the atv adventure or the mud bath. I don’t think these two would have ever been drawn to each other on their own.

of course, that’s true about all of these couples this season......

[Ilovepie]

48 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Jasmine was on record saying she was willing to work out the finances more equitably.

She did, but it it didn’t seem like she really wanted to, hence the compromise vs sacrifice conversation. Also, and to me the bigger problem for Will, was that she didn’t support his dream of being a coach at all. She is a dream crusher in his eyes....

[Yeah No]

24 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Please be careful with the word 'abusive'.  Nothing in what you wrote supported use of that word.

In your opinion, of course.  I think it's abusive to completely shut down to a person who is trying to get closer to you and thwart them at every turn by being disengaged.  It is abusive to not be open and fair with the person about your true feelings about them, especially in a situation like this where they have a limited amount of time to reach a decision about staying together.  But OK, I get it that you don't agree.

Speaking of Keith and Kristine, I have to wonder what would have happened after Keith revealed that he wanted Kristine to be "Grandma II' and take care of the home and all of the cooking if Kristine just shut down to him completely, like Will did with Jasmine after the conversation about finances.  Would Keith have been so willing to go get cooking lessons to show his wife some "good faith" that he wanted to meet her needs?  I really doubt that.  I think he would have dug his heels in too and realized he was not going to get anywhere with her.  So what on earth could Jasmine have done given that Will had shut down to her and seemed completely unwilling to try to meet her in the middle?  She couldn't possibly make it up to him or show good faith because he just wasn't having it.  It takes two to tango.  And I saw absolutely NOTHING coming from Will to show that he was willing to make any effort to compromise with her at all.  It was his way or no way.  Unlike Kristine, who was most gracious and patient about Keith's outdated gender role expectations of her.  Would it have killed Will to do that for Jasmine?  And why wouldn't she deserve at least that?  I also wonder how Kristine would have been roundly vilified for shutting Keith out.  Meanwhile Will is defended.  Go figure.

12 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

She did, but it it didn’t seem like she really wanted to, hence the compromise vs sacrifice conversation. Also, and to me the bigger problem for Will, was that she didn’t support his dream of being a coach at all. She is a dream crusher in his eyes....

IMO she didn't want to because she knew he was not going to give an inch with her already.  She knew he was already completely shut down and had an attitude.  Why would she really want to be flexible about anything in that situation?  You can't get blood from a stone.  Think Keith and Kristine.  Kristine knew Keith basically liked her so she had a realistic hope that he would come around and make some changes for her.  I think Jasmine knew that was not possible with Will.  He never showed the audience ANY willingness to bend or blend with Jasmine.  The fact that she made that comment at all shows me she might have done that if he would have given her any opportunity to get anywhere with him.  I think she just gave up.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Yeah No

[scruffy73]

10 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

As we know, Will, Jasmine, and her father went to Lincoln.  So for real, do you have some insider information about all the other Lincoln people in their lives (relatives, family friends, and mentors), because you assert with absolute certainty that Jasmine's Lincoln ties are deeper than Will's.  

You also must have insider information about the alumni network at Lincoln, and how involved they are in the life of Will and Jasmine, and what the perceptions are of all these people, in order to have such strong suspicions that Will (and only Will, not Jasmine) potentially face a "major loss" professionally.

I think Folks are taking this “Jas’s Dad went to Lincoln. Will better watch out.” too damn far. Is Jas’s daddy the president and keeper of all professional networks? Unless Jas’s dad is some prominent alumnus his thoughts don’t matter. For all we know WILL could be the prominent alumnus. Or his dad or mom. Age doesn’t mean anything. Stacey Abrams, who ran for governor in Georgia, is my classmate at Spelman College (‘95). Clearly SHE is a prominent alumna and is young. (Shut up! 46 IS young! Lol)

And guess what. Jas’s dad might agree with some of us here, that Will and Jas were a bad match and it is good they separated. And I’m sure as a grown ass man he is not that petty to try to “punish” Will.

Look, as I said, this is not something that will force Will to disconnect from Lincoln for unless he wasn’t connected in the first place. And I’m sure, other than being respectful of Jas’s father as a man, Will is not afraid of what he might “do”

[Soup333]

42 minutes ago, scruffy73 said:

I think Folks are taking this “Jas’s Dad went to Lincoln. Will better watch out.” too damn far. Is Jas’s daddy the president and keeper of all professional networks? Unless Jas’s dad is some prominent alumnus his thoughts don’t matter. For all we know WILL could be the prominent alumnus. Or his dad or mom. Age doesn’t mean anything. Stacey Abrams, who ran for governor in Georgia, is my classmate at Spelman College (‘95). Clearly SHE is a prominent alumna and is young. (Shut up! 46 IS young! Lol)

And guess what. Jas’s dad might agree with some of us here, that Will and Jas were a bad match and it is good they separated. And I’m sure as a grown ass man he is not that petty to try to “punish” Will.

Look, as I said, this is not something that will force Will to disconnect from Lincoln for unless he wasn’t connected in the first place. And I’m sure, other than being respectful of Jas’s father as a man, Will is not afraid of what he might “do”

The whole thing has been taken too far honestly. Will has been called abusive, petty, vindictive, lazy as hell, a habitual lair and a judgmental ass who took one look at Jasmine and saw an ogre.

Jasmine’s father is apparently now the second coming of Tony Soprano. 

And I’m wondering what Will we’re speaking of because I’ve seen none of that. Literally nothing. 

[aphroditewitch]

51 minutes ago, scruffy73 said:

I think Folks are taking this “Jas’s Dad went to Lincoln. Will better watch out.” too damn far. Is Jas’s daddy the president and keeper of all professional networks? Unless Jas’s dad is some prominent alumnus his thoughts don’t matter. For all we know WILL could be the prominent alumnus. Or his dad or mom. Age doesn’t mean anything. Stacey Abrams, who ran for governor in Georgia, is my classmate at Spelman College (‘95). Clearly SHE is a prominent alumna and is young. (Shut up! 46 IS young! Lol)

And guess what. Jas’s dad might agree with some of us here, that Will and Jas were a bad match and it is good they separated. And I’m sure as a grown ass man he is not that petty to try to “punish” Will.

Look, as I said, this is not something that will force Will to disconnect from Lincoln for unless he wasn’t connected in the first place. And I’m sure, other than being respectful of Jas’s father as a man, Will is not afraid of what he might “do”

Except we know that Will grew up in poverty, so it is unlikely that his parents went there. 

3 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

The whole thing has been taken too far honestly. Will has been called abusive, petty, vindictive, lazy as hell, a habitual lair and a judgmental ass who took one look at Jasmine and saw an ogre.

Jasmine’s father is apparently now the second coming of Tony Soprano. 

And I’m wondering what Will we’re speaking of because I’ve seen none of that. Literally nothing. 

Oh please, I never suggested that Jasmine's father would break his legs. Just that he could make Will persona non grata. 

[Adeejay]

21 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

Except we know that Will grew up in poverty, so it is unlikely that his parents went there. 

Wow.  Just wow!

[SherryMarion]

As for Luke, I don't think the experts have gaydar.

[SherryMarion]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 8:05 AM, Claire Voyant said:

Puke telling Kate at least 3 times (yes, I counted)  how "attractive" he could find her made me want to reach through the tv and give him some wall to wall counseling.  What a douche.  I'm so happy for Kate I could PUKE!  LOL

Puke being gay or not has nothing to do with his treatment of Kate.  I've known many gay people and they are kind and thoughtful to both men and women and children.   Puke is perverse and he's absolutely on point when he said he was dead inside.   I'd feel sorry for him if he wasn't such a gigantic ass and so determined to play sicko mind games. 

Stephanie, Stephanie, Stephanie.  WTF are you doing?  AJ is an only child with a child's temper to match and if you think he's going to become more thoughtful and respectful toward you because the camera's are gone, you are sadly mistaken. 

Jasmine.  Go find a rich man who wants to be told how he feels and when he should feel it. 

God bless Will for not taking advantage of her willingness to have sex with him.  Not many men out there who would have been quite so chivalrous, no matter how happy she would have been.   Just ask Puke. 

Will didn't even go for it when Jasmine cooked him a dinner in her black lingerie, including lots of cleavage.  Candlelight too, if I recall.  Pretty obvious there was not attraction on his part.

[Drogo]

Reminder:  If you want to ignore another member because their comments annoy you, hover over their avatar and click on "Ignore User." 

[VedaPierce]

On 4/3/2019 at 12:47 PM, Claire Voyant said:

This!  Class-A douchebag. 

I don't care if all he's sexually drawn to are Kewpie dolls, he's still a shifty-eyed, mealy-mouthed, mean, nasty, emmer effer.  No gay, bi or transgender proclivities have got anything to do with his dirty, self-absorbed, spiritless self.  He is what he is and it's nothing nice.  Not an ounce of empathy anywhere.  I personally am uncomfortable just knowing he's out there and he's running free.  

Oh.  And please God, don't let Kate and Puke be stupid enough to be pregnant. 😱 Amen.    

I wish I could like this 1k times! You put my thoughts about Luke into a perfect summation!

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

On the honeymoon, when she didn't want to have the mud painted on her, he put her down over that. When he met her dog, he had a fit because he refused to believe that the dog was house trained. His negative reaction when she said she had lived with an ex, even though he also had lived with an ex. When he lied about their kiss at the alter, she told him that wasn't what happened and he rolled his eyes. The flashback revealed she was telling the truth.  When he put her down during the kissing game and lied about it later during the car. It happened a lot. 

What about when she made fun of him when he said he was afraid of heights?  This is what I meant when I said people can watch the same show and have totally different opinions.  That's the beauty of this place.  Some people saw Will as not being honest, I saw Jasmine as being a little girl who doesn't know what she wants; I saw her looking down at Will because of his upbringing.

Quote

Except we know that Will grew up in poverty, so it is unlikely that his parents went there. 

Whoa, that's rough.  I'm not really sure of either.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Neurochick

[Ilovepie]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Why would she really want to be flexible about anything in that situation? 

The same can be applied to Will, and she was asking for more from him. Why should he give up more of his disposable income to pay her bills? I think it was an insane ask considering they had just met!

I don't think Will handled this situation perfectly, but she was not exactly some prize either. Maybe both of them would have done better matched with someone else, but my feeling is that she would/will have a harder time finding a match. Her expectations are unreasonable and unrealistic. She also feels entitled to be the boss in the relationship. Good luck with that.........

[Peper81]

2 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

Exactly. Which is why, in the real world, Will and Jasmine would have been done after the money convo in Costa Rica or the atv adventure or the mud bath. I don’t think these two would have ever been drawn to each other on their own.

of course, that’s true about all of these couples this season......

This is what I find so fascinating about this show.  I can't understand why more of these couples don't have some real talk when the cameras go away.  Maybe they do and are just pretending but in some of these cases it really doesn't seem like it.  I am pretty sure while watching this my face looks exactly like AJ's when he found out Kate and Luke and, I think, Will and Jasmine, said they hadn't really talked about decision day.  Like, "What?!" "How?"  It boggles my mind.  Outside of people like Luke, I think most people would be pretty honest if the cameras and "experts" weren't in their faces and would be open to a real dialogue about a future and how to handle the craziness but it's like these people don't do it.  

[aphroditewitch]

13 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

What about when she made fun of him when he said he was afraid of heights?  This is what I meant when I said people can watch the same show and have totally different opinions.

Both Jasmine and Will poked at each other. But Jasmine has been thoroughly criticized for everything while Will has gotten a pass. Someone asked what mean things Will had said to Jasmine and I provided examples.  

[Neurochick]

1 minute ago, aphroditewitch said:

Both Jasmine and Will poked at each other. But Jasmine has been thoroughly criticized for everything while Will has gotten a pass. Someone asked what mean things Will had said to Jasmine and I provided examples.  

I became annoyed with Jasmine when she said she wanted the man to pay all the bills.  At first I thought she was kidding, but when I realized she wasn't, I was like, "NOPE."  Maybe Will felt that way too.

[Empress1]

1 minute ago, Peper81 said:

This is what I find so fascinating about this show.  I can't understand why more of these couples don't have some real talk when the cameras go away.  Maybe they do and are just pretending but in some of these cases it really doesn't seem like it.  I am pretty sure while watching this my face looks exactly like AJ's when he found out Kate and Luke and, I think, Will and Jasmine, said they hadn't really talked about decision day.  Like, "What?!" "How?"  It boggles my mind.  Outside of people like Luke, I think most people would be pretty honest if the cameras and "experts" weren't in their faces and would be open to a real dialogue about a future and how to handle the craziness but it's like these people don't do it.  

I sometimes wonder if the couples that know things aren't going well leave the shared place and go back to the places they live in, and just come back to film. There's nothing worse than feeling uncomfortable in your own "home" and if you know three weeks in that this isn't it, I could see being like "cool, so I'll see you when they have to film us waking up on Tuesday." I can think of a bunch of instances where the wake-up scenes were clearly staged (women don't have perfect makeup and hair when they wake up. Stephanie slept in her wedding makeup - bad for your skin! - and you could tell the next morning because it was all smeared). If I were Kate, that's what I'd have done.

I also would want to have had a conversation about our respective decisions before decision day so that nobody blindsides anybody, but I guess you can't make a person do that.

21 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Whoa, that's rough.  I'm not really sure of either.

The only person who said anything about poverty re: Will was Jasmine, and she wouldn't know. She based it off a playground she saw once. Will himself said he "had enough" growing up, and I'd be inclined to trust his description of his circumstances.

[aphroditewitch]

Just now, Neurochick said:

I became annoyed with Jasmine when she said she wanted the man to pay all the bills.  At first I thought she was kidding, but when I realized she wasn't, I was like, "NOPE."  Maybe Will felt that way too.

But we don't know the context and whether there were qualifiers. I don't know what Will felt but he seems very inflexible. Inflexible to the point where I think he would leave a wife if for some reason she couldn't work due to illness or injury. His whole 50/50 thing reminded me of a character in The Joy Luck Club. A 50/50 system can only work in theory if both people make roughly the same. We don't actually know who made more money, Pastor Cal did say Jasmine might make more but it was never verified who actually did make more. 

[Drogo]

10 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I became annoyed with Jasmine when she said she wanted the man to pay all the bills.  At first I thought she was kidding, but when I realized she wasn't, I was like, "NOPE."  Maybe Will felt that way too.

This is exactly where the ship sank, IMO.  She put her cards on the table, and he thought her cards were Selfish AF. 

Relationships need to be 50/50, and the bills are only the tip of the iceberg. 

5 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

I don't know what Will felt but he seems very inflexible. Inflexible to the point where I think he would leave a wife if for some reason she couldn't work due to illness or injury. His whole 50/50 thing reminded me of a character in The Joy Luck Club. 

There aren't many film characters I dislike more than 50/50 guy in TJLC, so I'm going to disagree with this assessment for two reasons.  1)  JoyLuckCheapskate was a successful architect who earned 7x more than his wife (who helped him start his firm) so there was a large pay disparity and he wouldn't be hurting to pay for her Cheetos or ice cream or cat medicine.  Will and Jasmine have similar incomes and are not wealthy by any stretch.  2) Will didn't come in guns-blazing about 50/50, it wasn't a hill he'd planned to die on- rather it was a response to Jasmine putting him on the spot about gender roles in the marriage and asking if he believed in "traditional" (AKA outdated) ones.  He said 50/50 but he also said he wasn't expecting her to cook/clean for him... Jasmine was foot-down/no-shit-taken/SMDH "50/50 is not going to happen, Will." 

[LuvMyShows]

36 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

But we don't know the context and whether there were qualifiers. 

Exactly!  Oh, but wait, that's only the case when it's about Jasmine....Will apparently doesn't get that same consideration...

36 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

I don't know what Will felt but he seems very inflexible. Inflexible to the point where I think he would leave a wife if for some reason she couldn't work due to illness or injury. 

OK, now you're just pulling our leg, right?  

[Retired at last]

It is really interesting the way people can interpret the same shows, as was said above. This season, to me, it was clear that Will was doing his best, but he had specific goals and values that weren't shared by Jasmine. I know the show is highly edited, but all I remember is Jasmine telling Will what he did wrong (breakfast), not helping her when her her vehicle was stuck, mocking his librarian preferences, etc. But, I am also one of the people who watched last season and thought Dave didn't do anything wrong, where several others thought he was abusive to Amber. I saw Amber as the problem with her low self esteem who got upset any time Dave said pretty much anything (unless it was suggesting that it was time for cocktails or sex).

I am looking forward to the FINAL show next week and being done with this batch. Still on the fence about watching again. This season was horrible to me.

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Exactly!  Oh, but wait, that's only the case when it's about Jasmine....Will apparently doesn't get that same consideration...

OK, now you're just pulling our leg, right?  

Is it? Because Will has already gotten a pass on things he said even when they weren't true by many people. It seems only fair to point out that there could be more to the story for Jasmine since so many people decided that was the case for Will. 

And no I'm not pulling anyone leg. i never once saw Will do any work with the relationship with Jasmine. That doesn't seem like a supportive person to me. It was never about what he could do or what he could do differently. It was always about how she needed to do more or how she was wrong. And it was like that on decision day too. When Jasmine started blaming herself he never spoke up and said what he could have done differently that might have made a difference. 

[Jeanne222]

I think Will just wanted to go and take another nap.  His escape room from the reality of real life!

I think Will is an ok fellow I just don't think Will puts himself out for anybody or anything.  He just rolls along.  He seems to be a nice gentle man.

Probably a great bachelor rather than husband and father.

Were Jasmines expectations too much?  I don't know but I do know she was alone a lot while he napped and they were newly weds.  I don't think kids would change much.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, aphroditewitch said:

But we don't know the context and whether there were qualifiers.

I'm confused.  Didn't Jasmine say she wanted the man to pay ALL of the bills, because he's the man and supposed to?  

[scruffy73]

2 hours ago, SherryMarion said:

Will didn't even go for it when Jasmine cooked him a dinner in her black lingerie, including lots of cleavage.  Candlelight too, if I recall.  Pretty obvious there was not attraction on his part.

He said he was attracted to the naughty librarian type, not the lingerie wearing beauty. Look, In college I showed up to my boyfriend’s house in a teddy and heels. He told me I looked nice and kept doing his homework. (Rude!) couple days later same scenario except I had on a tank top and almost obscenely short shorts and he jumped me. I tried it again - lingerie, nothing; skimpy shorts, all the attention.

Will might really just be that strict in what flips his switch.

[Kiss my mutt]

I think it would have been better overall to discuss finances and budgeting like they did on other seasons. We never really knew financially what these couples were faced if they remained married. 

[Ohwell]

One could call me a coward, I don't care, but I would have done the same thing as Will and slept my way through until the "experiment" was over.  

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I'm confused.  Didn't Jasmine say she wanted the man to pay ALL of the bills, because he's the man and supposed to?  

Yeah, but then I think she heard how it sounded out loud and backed up a little.  At first it was "The man is supposed to be the protector and the provider!" then it became "A man should pay all the large bills while a woman pays some small bills"- cut to "A man should expect to pick up most of the bills if he wants to come home to a clean house."

That whole dinner was so weird, if he could have "check, please!"d himself out of there he would have.  It was like Jasmine's application for a SAHM job littered with her own confusion about what "independent" means.

[Ohwell]

8 minutes ago, Drogo said:

That whole dinner was so weird, if he could have "check, please!"d himself out of there he would have. 

He should have stuffed some dinner rolls in his pocket and high-tailed it outta there.

[scruffy73]

1 hour ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I think it would have been better overall to discuss finances and budgeting like they did on other seasons. We never really knew financially what these couples were faced if they remained married. 

Didn’t they do this during the Jephte/Shawniece season? We learned about Shawniece’s goal of saving for her salon and how Jephte spends money willy-nilly and how she was going to have to work with him. This was NOT on the honeymoon. Neither were caught off guard by the conversation. But also neither had an unreasonable/fantasy ideal  that they wanted to base a brand new relationship on without having ANY idea of what each other’s goals are, what each can contribute to the marital funds, HOW each expected things to go, etc. Really and truthfully, if a man came up with “I’ll pay for it all” after a couple days I would think it was a set up.

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

This is exactly where the ship sank, IMO.  She put her cards on the table, and he thought her cards were Selfish AF. 

Relationships need to be 50/50, and the bills are only the tip of the iceberg. 

I thought Keith was selfish AF too but there was nowhere near the hate toward him as toward Jasmine.  All was forgiven because he made a show of learning to cook for Kristine.  Meanwhile, we'll see how long that lasts. The only reason Kristine wasn't vilified is because she was downright gracious with Keith despite his outdated expectations of women.  If she had shown the least bit of resistance towards that she would have been made into the bad guy, I am sure.  Meanwhile Will gets a pass for resisting Jasmine for her outdated gender role expectations and never giving her the time of day after that.  I see a double standard here.

[princelina]

11 minutes ago, scruffy73 said:

Didn’t they do this during the Jephte/Shawniece season? We learned about Shawniece’s goal of saving for her salon and how Jephte spends money willy-nilly and how she was going to have to work with him. This was NOT on the honeymoon. Neither were caught off guard by the conversation. But also neither had an unreasonable/fantasy ideal  that they wanted to base a brand new relationship on without having ANY idea of what each other’s goals are, what each can contribute to the marital funds, HOW each expected things to go, etc. Really and truthfully, if a man came up with “I’ll pay for it all” after a couple days I would think it was a set up.

Yes - that's also where we learned that Danielle was in debt and Amber wanted to live in a retirement village 😄 

That whole conversation with Jasmine and Will was weird.  First of all I don't think it was a wise time to have that conversation - especially because I thought I knew (from previous seasons) that they would be having it when they got home.  When she first said "pay all the bills" I actually thought she meant he as the man should be writing out the checks and controlling their money!  But then it became clear that she just wanted him to pay - she never elaborated that she was hoping to be a stay at home mom or anything like that - he was just to be the man and provider. And when he talked about owning rental properties and getting into coaching she immediately said "There's no money in that" which I think offended him, and then sort of teased him about being a highly paid professional coach.  Now Will doesn't seem to be an idiot - I'm sure he's aware that he is not going to be a highly paid professional.  But she never asked and we never found out what his actual plans/goals regarding that are.  And those were his complaints when he talked to his friends.

Also - if he didn't want to come right out and say "I'm just not that into you" - at what point is she responsible for taking a hint?  (You too Kate - they both need to read that book.). I actually bought that book when it came out because I was dating a guy who didn't want to have sex with me and I wondered what his deal was 😄 But one thing I did NOT do was constantly try to pressure him into it; that would have been demeaning and humiliating.

[aphroditewitch]

3 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I thought Keith was selfish AF too but there was nowhere near the hate toward him as toward Jasmine.  All was forgiven because he made a show of learning to cook for Kristine.  Meanwhile, we'll see how long that lasts. The only reason Kristine wasn't vilified is because she was downright gracious with Keith despite his outdated expectations of women.  If she had shown the least bit of resistance towards that she would have been made into the bad guy, I am sure.  Meanwhile Will gets a pass for resisting Jasmine for her outdated gender role expectations and never giving her the time of day after that.  I see a double standard here.

I think Keith reverting to his old ways is one of the biggest hurdles for him and Kristine. And playing at cooking and cleaning for seven weeks is not enough to lead me to believe he is going to continue. It will be interesting to see what she says during the reunion and if they are still together at the reunion how things continue after that. 

[Soup333]

8 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I thought Keith was selfish AF too but there was nowhere near the hate toward him as toward Jasmine.  All was forgiven because he made a show of learning to cook for Kristine.  Meanwhile, we'll see how long that lasts. The only reason Kristine wasn't vilified is because she was downright gracious with Keith despite his outdated expectations of women.  If she had shown the least bit of resistance towards that she would have been made into the bad guy, I am sure.  Meanwhile Will gets a pass for resisting Jasmine for her outdated gender role expectations and never giving her the time of day after that.  I see a double standard here.

Not only did Kristine resist, she told Keith straight up she wasn’t “gonna be cooking three meals a day. I’m not a housewife.”

[Marsh]

4 hours ago, SherryMarion said:

Will didn't even go for it when Jasmine cooked him a dinner in her black lingerie, including lots of cleavage.  Candlelight too, if I recall.  Pretty obvious there was not attraction on his part.

Agree.  Will was not physically attracted to Jasmine from the beginning.  She just threw it out there at dinner.  Sometimes less is more. 

And on the topic of Will sleeping - here's an interesting tip for the women to learn.  If you notice your boyfriend sleeping a lot more than usual for no reason, be careful.  It's a planned tactic to make you lose interest, so it will soften the blow when he breaks up with you.

Classic tactic.  We've all done it.  Will, I see what you did there.

[Drogo]

12 minutes ago, Marsh said:

If you notice your boyfriend sleeping a lot more than usual for no reason, be careful.  It's a planned tactic to make you lose interest, so it will soften the blow when he breaks up with you.

Also if he rates you a 6.8.

[Retired at last]

But, @Drogo, it was based on a 9-point scale!😁

[LuvMyShows]

21 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

The show played up Amber's insecurity. She never could have been happy with Dave because he was a jerk towards her. 

Genuine question here...given the vilification of Dave/Will, and the oh-it's-just-editing for Amber/Jasmine, are there any females in the franchise that you think have ever done anything negative?

[Claire Voyant]

4 hours ago, Marsh said:

Agree.  Will was not physically attracted to Jasmine from the beginning.  She just threw it out there at dinner.  Sometimes less is more. 

And on the topic of Will sleeping - here's an interesting tip for the women to learn.  If you notice your boyfriend sleeping a lot more than usual for no reason, be careful.  It's a planned tactic to make you lose interest, so it will soften the blow when he breaks up with you.

Classic tactic.  We've all done it.  Will, I see what you did there.

Jazmine doesn't "listen".   She hears what's said, but has very little interest and becomes dismissive and arrogant.  Will's sexual fantasy was that he wanted a librarian.  She was unpleasantly surprised at his confession to her, and she apparently just dismissed his fantasy in favor of her own, which was to be SO wildly sexy he would have no choice but to ravish her the instant he saw her trembling tata's spilling out all over the supper table.   

What she should have done was pin her wig back, put on some dark rimmed glasses, wear a buttoned up blouse and a skirt, sans underwear.  Find a book off of HIS bookshelf, carry it to him and ask him if this book was as interesting as it looks.   📖😉

Seriously, if my new husband chose to go for weeks without showing any interest in sex, I'd be gone so fast you wouldn't see me for the dust.   I sure as hell wouldn't be asking to stay with him!  Why would any woman choose to do that?  So you could continue to waste more time listening to him snoring your life away???    

Edited April 6, 2019 by Claire Voyant

[Adeejay]

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

Genuine question here...given the vilification of Dave/Will, and the oh-it's-just-editing for Amber/Jasmine, are there any females in the franchise that you think have ever done anything negative?

Viewers were incensed at the way Ashley and Samantha treated David and Neil, respectively. Those ladies had their heads handed to them on a platter. It was brutal.

[scruffy73]

2 hours ago, Claire Voyant said:

Jazmine doesn't "listen".   She hears what's said, but has very little interest and becomes dismissive and arrogant.  Will's sexual fantasy was that he wanted a librarian.  She was unpleasantly surprised at his confession to her, and she apparently just dismissed his fantasy in favor of her own, which was to be SO wildly sexy he would have no choice but to ravish her the instant he saw her trembling tata's spilling out all over the supper table.   

What she should have done was pin her wig back, put on some dark rimmed glasses, wear a buttoned up blouse and a skirt, sans underwear.  Find a book off of HIS bookshelf, carry it to him and ask him if this book was as interesting as it looks.   📖😉

Seriously, if my new husband chose to go for weeks without showing any interest in sex, I'd be gone so fast you wouldn't see me for the dust.   I sure as hell wouldn't be asking to stay with him!  Why would any woman choose to do that?  So you could continue to waste more time listening to him snoring your life away???    

I don’t know why but “pin her wig back” tickled me way more than it should have. But you said the exact same thing as I did about her not playing to HIS fantasy.

While we are on the subject, why did they sit on opposite ends of the table? If she was trying to entice him, maybe she should have put those boobs closer for him to get a good look at and give him more than a passing whiff of her perfume.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Genuine question here...given the vilification of Dave/Will, and the oh-it's-just-editing for Amber/Jasmine, are there any females in the franchise that you think have ever done anything negative?

I know you asked this of someone else but I've been vocal about the men too - I think most of the females on this show have done negative things and I have posted about them whenever I think so.  I've posted plenty of negative things about both Jasmine and Kate.  No one is perfect.  I just don't think that one partner is good/the other bad.  If I write several posts criticizing Will it doesn't mean I also don't think Jasmine should be criticized.  I don't think one has to be vilified and the other sainted when I see abundant evidence that both of them come up short in a lot of ways.  It irks me because I feel that some of the women on this show are vilified while their men get off without much if any criticism.  I think some of that is production's fault and some is audience perception.

BTW, I asked Mr. Yeah No for his opinion on Will - Keep in mind that he is 63 years old - I didn't prime him with my opinion first, but he basically agreed with me.  Interestingly, he thinks Will is "cheap" and "unrealistic" about his career.  This fascinated me because I didn't really know what he would say.  When I asked him why he felt that way he said, "Because he was too rigid about how much money Jasmine should be contributing to the bills.  A guy that isn't cheap wouldn't be so insistent on a 50-50 split and would be more flexible".  He also thinks that Jasmine would have been more flexible than she was originally if Will wanted to negotiate.  I agreed with that based on Jasmine's later talking head where she says she had thought it over and would be willing to be more flexible.  When I asked him why he thought Will was unrealistic about his career, he basically said that Will sounded like he didn't care about bringing in an income and wanted to be able to just do whatever he wanted no matter how little income he made, which Mr. Yeah no thinks is selfish and irresponsible for someone just getting married.  Of course I didn't point out how he did that to me for a short time when we were young, LOL. 😉 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, Soup333 said:

Not only did Kristine resist, she told Keith straight up she wasn’t “gonna be cooking three meals a day. I’m not a housewife.”

Yeah but Kristine didn't completely shut Keith out the way Will did with Jasmine.  She stayed and negotiated for what she wanted, which actually got Keith to make some changes.  I think Jasmine would have done that for Will if he would have given her the time of day after their finance conversation, especially given her talking head where she says she decided she could be more flexible about who pays for what and how much she contributes towards bills.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Claire Voyant said:

Jazmine doesn't "listen".   She hears what's said, but has very little interest and becomes dismissive and arrogant.  Will's sexual fantasy was that he wanted a librarian.  She was unpleasantly surprised at his confession to her, and she apparently just dismissed his fantasy in favor of her own, which was to be SO wildly sexy he would have no choice but to ravish her the instant he saw her trembling tata's spilling out all over the supper table.  

I agree with you here, I think she could have humored him to show good faith even if the fantasy was a turn off for her.  I once had a boyfriend a zillion years ago that wanted me to dress up in a French maid costume.  It wasn't my fantasy and initially I wasn't comfortable with it, but it wasn't really offensive to me so I indulged him.  I didn't have to wear it that long anyway, LOL. 😉 I have posted before that I think Jasmine was a little too rigid about stuff too.  Neither of them wanted to indulge the other.  Mr. Yeah No thinks Will shouldn't have been so hung up on his OWN fantasy that he could just ignore her dressed in that revealing negligee or whatever she was wearing.  If he was really attracted to her that should have been enough to get his mother running.  So it goes both ways.

4 hours ago, Claire Voyant said:

Seriously, if my new husband chose to go for weeks without showing any interest in sex, I'd be gone so fast you wouldn't see me for the dust.   I sure as hell wouldn't be asking to stay with him!  Why would any woman choose to do that?  So you could continue to waste more time listening to him snoring your life away???    

Because this isn't "real life" and they have a contract?  I think production is responsible for a lot of this mess.  I feel sorry for Jasmine that she actually wanted to stay married to Will.  I think it just shows how desperate she is by now and how bleak she sees her prospects.  I don't wish that on any person.  I don't think she wanted to stay married because she really liked the guy.  She should have wanted to divorce but knowing what her POV likely is I feel more sorry for her than anything else.

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, Drogo said:

JoyLuckCheapskate was a successful architect who earned 7x more than his wife (who helped him start his firm) so there was a large pay disparity and he wouldn't be hurting to pay for her Cheetos or ice cream or cat medicine.  Will and Jasmine have similar incomes and are not wealthy by any stretch.

Do we really know how much each of them makes relative to the other?  I don't think we do.  That was part of the story that I think production deliberately left out.  I don't assume that Jasmine made a similar income to Will, especially given that she worked in what is basically non-profit and he seemed to work in some kind of finance position, which is more likely higher paid.  I don't think it's public where Will works.  That seems to be a big secret, which leads me to believe he works for a big company that would not want to be associated with this show.  Usually when we know where people work it's either that they're self employed or working in non-corporate jobs.  And corporate jobs tend to pay very well.  Plus, not to harp on the male/female income disparity, but as a woman Jasmine likely gets paid less.  So I just didn't assume she was unreasonable or selfish to think he should pay more.   She might have been, but in the absence of that information I won't assume so. 

Jasmine did change her tune about that later on, too.  I think discussions with the experts made her clarify her position and realize her original insistence about that was unfair.  Just the way Keith was made to see he was being unfair to Kristine.  Keith was forgiven and assumed to be sincere about his change of position, when we really don't know how sincere he really is or how long that will last.  I don't assume Jasmine was insincere about her change of position.  I think she would have been willing to negotiate if Will didn't completely shut her down.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Yeah No

[VedaPierce]

17 hours ago, Drogo said:

Yeah, but then I think she heard how it sounded out loud and backed up a little.  At first it was "The man is supposed to be the protector and the provider!" then it became "A man should pay all the large bills while a woman pays some small bills"- cut to "A man should expect to pick up most of the bills if he wants to come home to a clean house."

That whole dinner was so weird, if he could have "check, please!"d himself out of there he would have.  It was like Jasmine's application for a SAHM job littered with her own confusion about what "independent" means.

The whole thing was just stupid and bad communication on both of their parts. I remember being newly married and having strong opinions about what both of our roles would be in the marriage. What you think it should be isn't necessarily what it should be. There's nothing wrong with jasmine wanting to feel financially secure befor she goes on to have children with her husband. Maybe she doesn't want a nanny or to put her kid in daycare so that she can keep working to make ends meet. There's nothing wrong with Will's dream of being a coach. Maybe one day he could own a sporting goods store and sponsor and coach a little league team on weekends and then both of their needs would be met. The most important part of the marriage is to love one another and be lockstep with each other. You both can have what you want if you think of each other as a team working towards a final goal. Jasmine's needs or desires weren't selfish or wrong, they just were communicated in an immature, clumsy way that seemed off-putting. I think that put Will on his heels for the remainder of the experiment. And he checked out instead to having a deep discussion with her about the big picture of where they see their marriage heading.

[configdotsys]

21 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

She did, but it it didn’t seem like she really wanted to, hence the compromise vs sacrifice conversation. Also, and to me the bigger problem for Will, was that she didn’t support his dream of being a coach at all. She is a dream crusher in his eyes....

There are certain things that people want in a mate that are deal killers from the jump if not compatible. Someone can learn to cook, or drive, or do whatever, but if your core belief is that the guy needs to pay for all or most of the bills and you get to keep whatever portion of your paycheck that you don't spend on a token small bill or two, that doesn't change. Jasmine deciding later that she's willing to maybe pay more of the bills did not fly because you should not have to be asked to contribute equally to the household bills when you are a full time working person. 

I'm not talking about families with kids or one working spouse or anyone else's family, finances, etc. I'm talking about these two specific people at this time in their life: they both work, they have no kids, both should be contributing half to the expenses. If they had kids and Jasmine stayed home or moved to part time work, then of course things would change but they would change due to circumstance, not due to one person feeling entitled to keeping all but a small portion of their income so they can spend and have fun while the guy pays for all the necessaries. Her offer to compromise was fake because it wasn't her. He saw the real her when they first talked about finances. I can't blame him if he thought, "Okay, forget this." 

What truly put me off about Jasmine was her attitude about the coaching thing. I have coached less fortunate kids as well as working class neighborhood kids in several sports over the years as did my spouse and some friends of ours. This takes place after work a few evenings a week and for a few hours on some weekends. I grew up playing sports and many parents/uncles/friends/volunteers, etc., were coaches and stuff. Had it not been for those people, we would not have had teams to play on. Jasmine had a problem with it because she thinks any time that Will used that is not earning cash is wasted time. That is not compatible with Will and won't change. It sure as hell would not be compatible with me either. 

[VedaPierce]

15 hours ago, Soup333 said:

Not only did Kristine resist, she told Keith straight up she wasn’t “gonna be cooking three meals a day. I’m not a housewife.”

Yes Kristine was straight up about that, but it was balanced with lots of kissing and hugging and loving, of both towards each other. Something seriously missing between Will and Jasmine. If a couple has the affection going for each other, they can pretty much work through any issue. There was a huge wall between them that I kind of blame Will for a little more. He has a new young bride that said something that rubbed him the wrong way and he never recovered from it. If he was mature, he would have had a much deeper discussion about Jasmine's philosophy on marriage and family, I'm sure it wasn't far off from his. Jasmine was just a  poor communicator. When I met my husband he was in a band and wanted to do that forever. Of course that's not gonna pay the bills and I wanted a nice house and good schools and lessons for future children and security, I was also working full time so it wasn't all on him. My husband learned a new skill--computer programming--which he actually enjoyed, and where he made a good living. (He also played in a band on weekends for the love of it, but it was a hobby, not his sole income) Now, 20 years later, he's opening up a School Of Rock and is able to combine his love of music with his corporate business skills. Everything is possible as long as both are on the same page. Happiness is achievable for everyone.

[configdotsys]

3 minutes ago, VedaPierce said:

My husband learned a new skill--computer programming--which he actually enjoyed, and where he made a good living. (He also played in a band on weekends for the love of it, but it was a hobby, not his sole income) Now, 20 years later, he's opening up a School Of Rock and is able to combine his love of music with his corporate business skills. Everything is possible as long as both are on the same page. Happiness is achievable for everyone.

Will said in the show that he wanted to save up to buy an investment property that would generate income. That income could have supplemented his own working income. Or, Will may thought if the investment property generated enough income for him to pay his bills every month and save for retirement with a little fun money left over, he would be happy and willing to live on that while coaching because it is important to him. There are people who don't chase cash and feel if they can cover their necessaries and save, they're happy with that. The only people that find fault with that lifestyle are people who do not agree with it and would rather chase money. Jasmine, it seems, is one of those people and therefore they are not a match. Trying to twist yourself into a compatible person with someone that has beliefs that are the total opposite of your own is an exercise in futility to me. I think people are allowed to be picky and not compromise. Will is perfectly right to want someone who will contribute equally to the finances and Jasmine is perfectly right to want someone who will pay for everything. In this situation, they are not a match and trying to force it to be something it's not seems such a waste of time.

There's also the matter of finding a life partner that will support their partner's passions by contributing fairly to the bills or perhaps even more than half in order to keep the home moving and enabling your spouse to follow his or her passion. Jasmine seemed to want none of that. She seemed disinterested in incorporating anything into their lives except what she herself wanted and Will very likely smelled that from day one.