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All Past Seasons of the Late Lamented Show


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3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Right? Every time I see that scene I'm like "but your mother is the team choreographer, wouldn't she have at least mentioned that you should practice the freaking one thing the team is most known for?" Of course, I also wonder, when any of them say they are scared because they've never done the jump split why they haven't ever tried it at home. I know they don't have anyone to do it with but it is something they can practice on their own and if I were trying out for a team where the jump split is done every single performance I'd be sure I could do it before I got there. Of course I'd also be sure I could do a good kick and a proper split and I'd probably take some dance classes. It always astonishes me when some of them admit to having very little dance training. 

That's why I feel like a lot of them try to make the team just to be on the show to get exposure to launch their social media careers. Because if you are serious about making the actual team you do the pre-training work, classes, limber up, get in shape. 

I forget who it was but one girl who didn't make it through finals I think, interviewed that she should have taken some dance classes before trying out and I was all "wow, how dumb are some of these girls?" because if you're going to a dance tryout (and lets face it, this is more a dance try out than a "cheer" try out) you should maybe know how to dance properly. 

The girl was Karissa from Season 6. She said "I would be on this team if I had taken dance classes". I still don't think she would have made the team, but who knows. 

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4 hours ago, Jess14 said:

Kelli allowed her to flail around for so long when anyone else would’ve been cut, that it was obvious that the level of favoritism shown towards her was extreme.

Yeah and Tara the vet was even cut before her ... 🤨

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On 6/29/2020 at 9:24 PM, Girl in a Cardigan said:

I always thought that office visit was edited all to hell because Erica is crying (tears running down her cheeks) as Kelly has told her she needs to lose weight. Kelly asks why she's crying and Erica's like "I'm upset that no one like my solo." Then Kelly starts talking about her attitude, which I hadn't seen her answer back at all. Yes, Erica had a talking head after the veteran meeting where she defended her solo (which we didn't really get to see), but I can understand that reaction and it was just to camera after crying in the bathroom. 

Erica had gotten dressed down in front of all of the veterans before practice and then again in Kelly's office, both times Erica is crying, not "pissed off." I don't know what other reaction Kelly was looking for. If there was something that happened during practice that night, you think the cameras would have shown us as part of the Erica's "pissed off" narrative Kelly was trying to spin. I never saw it. I also thought Erica was a great dancer, so I was mad at Kelly for yelling at her twice about the same thing. It's not like she could have lost weight in five hours.

I personally think that while Erica was upset about what happened with the vets meeting and the subsequent office visit later, I think Erica was also upset that her best friend, Michelle Mozak had been cut. She seemed pretty devastated by it when they were showing them after TC had been announced. They seem pretty close.

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2 hours ago, bjo1969 said:

I personally think that while Erica was upset about what happened with the vets meeting and the subsequent office visit later, I think Erica was also upset that her best friend, Michelle Mozak had been cut. She seemed pretty devastated by it when they were showing them after TC had been announced. They seem pretty close.

I'm pretty sure they still are.

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On 6/30/2020 at 2:16 PM, Girl in a Cardigan said:

Not the same girl, but I remember when Karissa was cut from season 6 (?), they kept her till the very end to try to give her time to get up to their level of dance, but she could never get there. And in her exit interview in the locker room, she said something like, "the only thing keeping me from making this team was taking dance classes." And I was like, yeah, why wouldn't you have taken dance classes before trying out for a DANCE team? I mean, I really liked her and I'm glad she's a lawyer in my neck of the woods now, but that was such an odd response to getting cut.

Maybe she thought because she was on a minor dance team she had some experience.

 

 

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On 6/30/2020 at 2:16 PM, Girl in a Cardigan said:

Not the same girl, but I remember when Karissa was cut from season 6 (?), they kept her till the very end to try to give her time to get up to their level of dance, but she could never get there. And in her exit interview in the locker room, she said something like, "the only thing keeping me from making this team was taking dance classes." And I was like, yeah, why wouldn't you have taken dance classes before trying out for a DANCE team? I mean, I really liked her and I'm glad she's a lawyer in my neck of the woods now, but that was such an odd response to getting cut.

I took that as her saying she should have taken DCC-specific classes, not that she had never taken any dance classes.  She should have focused on power pom and taken the DCC prep classes.  She got cut at finals the next year, so not sure if she did those classes or not.

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9 hours ago, aeroluv327 said:

I took that as her saying she should have taken DCC-specific classes, not that she had never taken any dance classes.  She should have focused on power pom and taken the DCC prep classes.  She got cut at finals the next year, so not sure if she did those classes or not.

I remember them commenting that her solo wasn't great & she was really winded afterward.  I'm guessing she didn't take classes and she let her aerobic conditioning slide.

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On 6/30/2020 at 9:11 PM, RedDelicious said:

Quoting you for context - I think this is the real beef that Kelli had with Dayton. Because her mother is the assistant choreographer, I think Kelli had the expectation that DB would perform better in training camp given that she's been around DCC her whole life and she expected DB to have better command of the dances from working with her mother. I know SB said DB had to do it on her own without extra help and that's great, but Kelli had a different, likely unspoken, expectation and held DB to a different standard. That certainly isn't fair, but that's what I think happened.

This is what I like about Shelly. Yes she pushes Dayton to be a better of herself but the difference between her and vk was that vk wasn't allowed to get in on her own merit because she was "promised" she already has a spot which was not exactly fair. Now Sam also is not stupid but was smart enough to know she does not have what it takes to be a DCC and stayed away from trying out. VK isn't isnt good enough to be a DCC dance wise because her skills are weaker than the other current dcc and she gained 10 pounds during her first try and was given more chances to lose it than if another tcc was given. I can and know and understand a vet given the chance because of the fact Kelli knows they can lose it. But before anyone says it. Yes the vets should not have gained the weight and they know whats expected of them but you could understand them given a little more time to lose it than someone who has not even been on the squad etc. It is a dance job.

On 6/30/2020 at 9:55 PM, Jess14 said:

While I don’t think Dayton should’ve made the team, I thought that Kelli’s somewhat hostile attitude towards her was due to the VK situation. I think she may have thought that by being hard on one legacy whose mom worked for the Cowboys, then that would shield her from criticism about favoring VK, who was also a legacy, and make her look fair. The problem was that VK should’ve been dismissed around the same time as Dayton due to the weight gain and her other struggles. Kelli allowed her to flail around for so long when anyone else would’ve been cut, that it was obvious that the level of favoritism shown towards her was extreme.

Kelli's beef towards her turned up a whole notch when Dayton was actually late to make overs. No I think vk should have been released ages before dayton. Actually she shouldnt have been in training camp in the first place period. Dayton yes she grew up around dcc and knows whats expected of her. She also had 4 weeks to prepare for trials, the first time she tried out which is  long time but in dcc world is not alot of time.

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9 hours ago, jlc said:

No.

What I hated seeing them show regarding Karissa was Judy leaning over and telling Kelli that she took some of their moves and made them look bad.  😞 

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Does anyone have the early seasons on iTunes? To be more precise Season 3 and 4? I ask because I was watching season 3 and 4 today and I just noticed that the auto on them are about 2 secs behind and I thought it was because I had just bought apple tv and it was just behind but as I only have seasons 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, 14 (don't ask I have the other seasons recorded on my tv on usb stick from when dcc was shown on the freeview tv here in uk).

 

I dont know if its me or it was always like that but I think it used to be ok but it seems that season 3/4 the audio is behind and I didn't notice it till today. Just wondered if thats the case with everyone else. Tried watching it on my iphone but it seems its the same, the audio is like 2 secs behind. If its not the case for everyone else someone please help me fix it. I have not done anything to the settings or anything. I watched a bit of season 12 and the audio there is not 2 secs behind etc.

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9 hours ago, mizzhyer said:

What I hated seeing them show regarding Karissa was Judy leaning over and telling Kelli that she took some of their moves and made them look bad.  😞 

This just makes me laugh because their own girls do that, case in point Kashara's "choreography" for auditions this year

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So I’m visiting my bff in Omaha and we went into a vintage store to look around. They had a big vinyl section. Look what was staring at me! And Judy’s on the cover! 

2058C767-6644-4A6F-AC86-C7F7F3E835A1.jpeg

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1 hour ago, ATLGirl said:

So I’m visiting my bff in Omaha and we went into a vintage store to look around. They had a big vinyl section. Look what was staring at me! And Judy’s on the cover! 

2058C767-6644-4A6F-AC86-C7F7F3E835A1.jpeg

Oh please please please say you bought it

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20 minutes ago, CailynA said:

Oh please please please say you bought it

Alas, I did not. I don’t have a turntable to play it on. So I wouldn’t be able to find out how one learns how to do “sexy hips” by listening to a record.🤣🤣🤣

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On 6/24/2020 at 8:12 AM, aeroluv327 said:

She had such a snotty attitude after she was put on weight warning, then tried to turn around and act like she just had no idea what Kelli and Judy were talking about.

I always have to laugh at that . Not at Chelsea but at Kelli. They chewed Ashley Paige out for seeming to be fake and rehearsed and Kelli prided herself for being able to tell yet she ate up Chelsea’s phony interview her rookie year. Her interview makes me want to puke she is so phony . Anyone could see it . Chelsea showed her true colors and it’s funny watching her after she got caught trying to turn on the charm and playing them for fools. “I’m sorry , I didn’t explode, I just saw my friends hurting and wanted to pep them up “ 🙄 way to go on sensing the “fake” on that one Kelli lol 

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Last week I found all the seasons available for purchase except for 1 and 2. I wasn’t watching the show in the early days because of residency demands so now I’m catching up! One thing that immediately struck me was that in the early seasons, it really looks like the average body fat percent is noticeably higher than it’s been in the last few seasons. Almost all of them look like if they were on the team now they would be called in for weight issues. It just kind of goes along with the pressure to be thinner and thinner these days. Also I do think the caliber of talent has really become exceptional. I’m really bummed this season will be delayed. 🙁

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45 minutes ago, Kate2006 said:

Last week I found all the seasons available for purchase except for 1 and 2. I wasn’t watching the show in the early days because of residency demands so now I’m catching up! One thing that immediately struck me was that in the early seasons, it really looks like the average body fat percent is noticeably higher than it’s been in the last few seasons. Almost all of them look like if they were on the team now they would be called in for weight issues. It just kind of goes along with the pressure to be thinner and thinner these days. Also I do think the caliber of talent has really become exceptional. I’m really bummed this season will be delayed. 🙁

I've been binge-watching PlutoTV (thank you to this forum for introducing me to this!) and I had the same thought.  I miss the earlier seasons where it seemed more down-to-earth. Now if a girl isn't rail-thin with an extensive dance resume, she has almost no chance of getting in.  If a Brooke-like candidate tried out for DCC now, no way she would make the camp cut based on size alone.

They are playing Season 6 now and I really want to know what happened to Rebecca that year.  Anyone have any knowledge (real or rumored) of why she left/got cut?

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(edited)
9 hours ago, Kate2006 said:

Last week I found all the seasons available for purchase except for 1 and 2. I wasn’t watching the show in the early days because of residency demands so now I’m catching up! One thing that immediately struck me was that in the early seasons, it really looks like the average body fat percent is noticeably higher than it’s been in the last few seasons. Almost all of them look like if they were on the team now they would be called in for weight issues. It just kind of goes along with the pressure to be thinner and thinner these days. Also I do think the caliber of talent has really become exceptional. I’m really bummed this season will be delayed. 🙁

It seems that the focus on being rail-thin instead of healthy (despite the continuous focus on weight) started when Cassie made the team.  Once they saw the uniform on Cassie, any other figure has far less of a chance and would likely be called in for weight, even if she was at or slightly below a healthy weight for her height and body type.  Kelli has never been one for any sort of knowledge about a girl, her figure and what a healthy weight should be for that particular body shape/type despite her insistence that the team is diverse in such things.  Just look at what she says in uniform fittings and, often, later in the episode (or shortly thereafter), we see a girl brought in and told that other girls her height (with no mention of ANY other factors that might affect her weight) are such-and-such a weight so the girl in the office should be such-and-such a weight.  

Edited by EricaShadows
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11 hours ago, 123DCCWoooo said:

I've been binge-watching PlutoTV (thank you to this forum for introducing me to this!) and I had the same thought.  I miss the earlier seasons where it seemed more down-to-earth. Now if a girl isn't rail-thin with an extensive dance resume, she has almost no chance of getting in.  If a Brooke-like candidate tried out for DCC now, no way she would make the camp cut based on size alone.

They are playing Season 6 now and I really want to know what happened to Rebecca that year.  Anyone have any knowledge (real or rumored) of why she left/got cut?

Shelly said she was cut, but it wasn’t shown.  

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I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam but Cassie is just not a nice person and I don't care if she says, well I wasn't always a happy cheerleader, I laid down the law, blah, blah, blah that to me sounds like when one says with all due respect, then insults you. During the Komen rehearsal episode when she falls out of her stunt & kicks the guy holding her she says something like oh who did I hit and she turns and looks at the guy walks away without even apologizing. One would think she of all people would understand grace but perhaps she never had to. She always struck me as an entitled mean girl but wow... she always has a puss on her face & I can't figure out why...

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Still think that putting a gal who had had surgery a few weeks prior in a halftime involving stunts was just stupid.  Especially when it was her 4th surgery, and the 3rd surgery was a few months prior.

 

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4 hours ago, TB12 said:

During the Komen rehearsal episode when she falls out of her stunt & kicks the guy holding her she says something like oh who did I hit and she turns and looks at the guy walks away without even apologizing.

And the GUY got yelled at!  Maybe I don't understand how stunts work, but I don't see what he did wrong.

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10 hours ago, EricaShadows said:

It seems that the focus on being rail-thin instead of healthy (despite the continuous focus on weight) started when Cassie made the team.  Once they saw the uniform on Cassie, any other figure has far less of a chance and would likely be called in for weight, even if she was at or slightly below a healthy weight for her height and body type.  Kelli has never been one for any sort of knowledge about a girl, her figure and what a healthy weight should be for that particular body shape/type despite her insistence that the team is diverse in such things.  Just look at what she says in uniform fittings and, often, later in the episode (or shortly thereafter), we see a girl brought in and told that other girls her height (with no mention of ANY other factors that might affect her weight) are such-and-such a weight so the girl in the office should be such-and-such a weight.  

I think the focus on rail thin began with the giant jumbo Tron at AT&T stadium. Girls who almost look too thin like Jinelle, whom I love, look great on it whereas girls who look fine otherwise look large on it. I think it just coincides with Cassie being on the team but she is a good example of a girl who looks good on the giant screen.

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Cailyn I bet you are right. I had not considered the big jumbo Tron. What year did they get that? 
in an early episode of season 3 they show the girls in the water getting a body fat percentage test. The ones who look so thin they could be on the current team had a body fat percent around 11%. The ones who would now get a weight warning we’re at 15% and above. Imagine being 15% body fat and being told you need to lose weight. SMH

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On 7/7/2020 at 4:57 AM, 123DCCWoooo said:

I've been binge-watching PlutoTV (thank you to this forum for introducing me to this!) and I had the same thought.  I miss the earlier seasons where it seemed more down-to-earth. Now if a girl isn't rail-thin with an extensive dance resume, she has almost no chance of getting in.  If a Brooke-like candidate tried out for DCC now, no way she would make the camp cut based on size alone.

They are playing Season 6 now and I really want to know what happened to Rebecca that year.  Anyone have any knowledge (real or rumored) of why she left/got cut?

 

19 hours ago, scorpio1031 said:

Shelly said she was cut, but it wasn’t shown.  

 

Was this the Rebecca that Kelli or Judy said "pretty from the neck up. But "confused" from the neck down"? The one that then emailed Kelli saying she was dropping out of training camp because she was overwhelmed with it? 

 

17 hours ago, scorpio1031 said:

Still think that putting a gal who had had surgery a few weeks prior in a halftime involving stunts was just stupid.  Especially when it was her 4th surgery, and the 3rd surgery was a few months prior.

 

 

But if I remembered correctly to that half time. Wasn't Nicole Bulcher meant to be in that whilst Cassie sat out. But Nicole got injured at the last minute, during rehearsals where her kneecap popped out and was not able to carry on and Cassie elected herself, as leaderk, to step in for Nicole. Thats how I remmeber that episode.

 

 

Ps can someone who have series  3 and 4 on itunes watch it via itunes and tell me whether those 2 series are out of sync and look like the audio are not matching to the moving lips or not or whether its just my series that look like that

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34 minutes ago, UK-Fan said:

But if I remembered correctly to that half time. Wasn't Nicole Bulcher meant to be in that whilst Cassie sat out. But Nicole got injured at the last minute, during rehearsals where her kneecap popped out and was not able to carry on and Cassie elected herself, as leaderk, to step in for Nicole. Thats how I remmeber that episode.

Cassie stepped in for Lauren during a preseason game when she was injured during rehearsal. 

34 minutes ago, UK-Fan said:

Was this the Rebecca that Kelli or Judy said "pretty from the neck up. But "confused" from the neck down"? The one that then emailed Kelli saying she was dropping out of training camp because she was overwhelmed with it? 

 

That was Christina Marie 

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1 hour ago, scorpio1031 said:

Cassie stepped in for Lauren during a preseason game when she was injured during rehearsal. 

That was Christina Marie 

Really? I remember one episode where Nicole injured her kneecap during rehearsals and Cassie said she had to step in and was during that pink half time. So who covered for Nicole in that game where she injured her knee? Hhhm I need to rewatch that episode. Lol

Edited by UK-Fan
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I was thinking during Christina’s first time in tc and getting cut, this is probably what we would have seen with Miranda Parker James. Whatever her last name needed up being if she had made it into tc 

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19 hours ago, CailynA said:

I think the focus on rail thin began with the giant jumbo Tron at AT&T stadium. Girls who almost look too thin like Jinelle, whom I love, look great on it whereas girls who look fine otherwise look large on it. I think it just coincides with Cassie being on the team but she is a good example of a girl who looks good on the giant screen.

Ohhhh so astute of you! That freaking jumbotron! 

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16 hours ago, Kate2006 said:

Cailyn I bet you are right. I had not considered the big jumbo Tron. What year did they get that? 
in an early episode of season 3 they show the girls in the water getting a body fat percentage test. The ones who look so thin they could be on the current team had a body fat percent around 11%. The ones who would now get a weight warning we’re at 15% and above. Imagine being 15% body fat and being told you need to lose weight. SMH

Season 4 was when the team started playing in the stadium, season 5 is the first time they judged auditions with the jumbotron, K & C watched the girls as they learned the routine for semis and it was the first time we heard "not HD ready" on the show, then they did finals judging with the giant screeen

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100% agree it’s definitely the Jumbotron. 
 

man, I’m watching season 12 rn and that Holly resignation is weird. I’m wondering if it was a resign or get cut. Holly seems to have done just fine. I adore her current hair color. I’m trying to get mine to the right shade of red. Haha

Im curious when TC will start. I’m teaching summer school starting the 13th. I have three 4th graders. I have to wear a mask; the kids are parent choice. (<10)  I’m in the Mckinney area is just a hopskip to Frisco. 
 

They could have it outside, but it’s brutal this time of year, and the humidity is ridiculous. It was 89 today with a heat index of 101. 
I’m wondering if there’s no football season, will the Tcc this year be allowed to enter in the finals with the vets?

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16 hours ago, tteek74 said:

man, I’m watching season 12 rn and that Holly resignation is weird. I’m wondering if it was a resign or get cut. Holly seems to have done just fine. I adore her current hair color. I’m trying to get mine to the right shade of red. Haha

Im curious when TC will start. I’m teaching summer school starting the 13th. I have three 4th graders. I have to wear a mask; the kids are parent choice. (<10)  I’m in the Mckinney area is just a hopskip to Frisco. 
 

Pretty sure it was a case of "resign or get cut" at least that's the feeling I get from it

 

Good luck with summer school. I'm in MO and stopped by my building yesterday only saw one kid with a mask in a group of 20-ish

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(edited)
On 7/7/2020 at 11:17 AM, TB12 said:

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam but Cassie is just not a nice person and I don't care if she says, well I wasn't always a happy cheerleader, I laid down the law, blah, blah, blah that to me sounds like when one says with all due respect, then insults you. During the Komen rehearsal episode when she falls out of her stunt & kicks the guy holding her she says something like oh who did I hit and she turns and looks at the guy walks away without even apologizing. One would think she of all people would understand grace but perhaps she never had to. She always struck me as an entitled mean girl but wow... she always has a puss on her face & I can't figure out why...

Nope!  I feel you!  I wanted to like Cassie when she first auditioned but as time went on it was quite apparent of the nepotism towards her and the crap she was allowed to get away with.  Even now, all these years later, I still don't like her and the back peddling she tries to do to explain her mean girl behavior.  Now Veruca is just Cassie 2.0 with a much more pronounced nepotism.

Edited by rl27rl
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26 minutes ago, rl27rl said:

Nope!  I feel you!  I wanted to like Cassie when she first auditioned but as time went on it was quiet apparent of the nepotism towards her and the crap she was allowed to get away with.  Even now, all these years later, I still don't like her and the back peddling she tries to do to explain her mean girl behavior.  Now Veruca is just Cassie 2.0 with a much more pronounced nepotism.

Yeah, watch this and compare Cassie to the other girls:/

 

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(edited)
15 hours ago, scorpio1031 said:

Yeah, watch this and compare Cassie to the other girls:/

 

Yup!  She lacks all sorts of power and preciseness.  But yet, her last year, when she should NOT have made it back, because one judge said, "Cassie Trammel is a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader", I wanted to throw something at her head.  And then the minute that Jay said would they extend the same courtesy to someone else, they quickly stopped showing anything having to do with him.  Besides, she only made Show Group because she could tumble.  There was nothing special about her.  Sorry, not sorry.

Edited by rl27rl
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2 hours ago, rl27rl said:

Yup!  She lacks all sorts of power and preciseness.  But yet, her last year, when she should NOT have made it back, because one judge said, "Cassie Trammel is a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader", I wanted to throw something at her head.  And then the minute that Jay said would they extend the same courtesy to someone else, they quickly stopped showing anything having to do with him.  Besides, she only made Show Group because she could tumble.  There was nothing special about her.  Sorry, not sorry.

That was Kristi Scales who doesn't like to see any vets get cut.

Edited by MrsEVH
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19 hours ago, scorpio1031 said:

Yeah, watch this and compare Cassie to the other girls:/

 

Oh that infuriated me all over again for Jalyn & seeing Veruca make it... As was noted above with Cassie the nepotism wasn't as overt, however with Veruca its out there and Kelli doesn't care who knows it, oh its making my blood boil all over again i'm never going to accept that veruca deserved a spot on the team, not sorry... also, seeing beautiful Bridget makes my heart sad that she left, she was the most adorable, genuine girl, notice how happy she was for Caroline when her name was called. She truly exemplified what a DCC should be & should've been point this year... 

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3 hours ago, TB12 said:

Oh that infuriated me all over again for Jalyn & seeing Veruca make it... As was noted above with Cassie the nepotism wasn't as overt, however with Veruca its out there and Kelli doesn't care who knows it, oh its making my blood boil all over again i'm never going to accept that veruca deserved a spot on the team, not sorry... also, seeing beautiful Bridget makes my heart sad that she left, she was the most adorable, genuine girl, notice how happy she was for Caroline when her name was called. She truly exemplified what a DCC should be & should've been point this year... 

image.png.6bf0f221f71cd20bc2fcd9cde51fe347.png

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30 minutes ago, dariafan said:

I forgot it was Rachel’s rookie introductory meeting she was late showing up for 

Well, technically it was her second and she probably didn’t miss anything important😂.  Kelli repeats herself so much one of us could run orientation.  

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On 7/9/2020 at 6:20 PM, scorpio1031 said:

Yeah, watch this and compare Cassie to the other girls:/

 

Favorite Best of Show Group video quote:  

Judy at 2:16: “In Show Group, there’s lots of pirouettes in every dance, so we want to make sure they can do that.”

🤔Oh realllly? K. 

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(edited)

I hate hearing “ this is where I belong “ or I belong on this team from people who really done    Also I finally realized who ding at kaitlyn reminds me of—-my former stepdaughter   She may have wanted something, but didn’t put in the work for it   

Edited by dariafan
Edited to add a thought
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15 hours ago, scorpio1031 said:

Well, technically it was her second and she probably didn’t miss anything important😂.  Kelli repeats herself so much one of us could run orientation.  

and probably do a better more interesting job, you gotta wonder how old it gets for the vets that have been there for more than 2 yrs

14 hours ago, KnyghtRyder said:

Favorite Best of Show Group video quote:  

Judy at 2:16: “In Show Group, there’s lots of pirouettes in every dance, so we want to make sure they can do that.”

🤔Oh realllly? K. 

well you know back when we saw them doing dances that the rest of the team didn't do... but we never see that anymore do we...hmmm

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