S08.E12: You Give Love A Bad Name

[ShowFan]

Ok I have to be honest and say it: the AJ slap on Puke’s butt was my absolute favorite moment of this season! I know it’s “bad” and AJ is an annoying jerk but the slap was a total highlight for me ...that’s my story and I’m sticking with it!

[ShowFan]

6 hours ago, gonecrackers said:

AJ is flipping out over a fussy baby at 2am,

I dearly hope they don’t reproduce. Imagine more AJs in this world..not cute. 

[Waterlilly]

Kate sure wasn’t going to turn that camera off in the car, no matter what Lucy said!  Yes I said Lucy...  and speaking of, what a performance on Unfiltered. Of course no one was impressed, but he really gave it his best. 

[gonecrackers]

42 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Dammit, if Kate was "blackout drunk"  that night, Puke should never have had sex with her in that state (--and it could certainly explain his secrecy)! 

On Unfiltered, Luke seemed quite regretful over the sex, & it seemed like the repulsion was more toward himself, admitting he wasn't ready, & dead inside, due to going ahead with it.  We wouldn't have known the details of how it went down (her having been drunk), or why he said that at the time. Kate may have explained it & it was possibly edited out of any discussion reg. his comments. Now either way it certainly would have been hurtful, but she is not the one with the problem with the sex, since she continues to try for a relationship with him which includes it, but he continues to "act weird" & avoid her after.

Pepper asked him if sex was a performance or attraction, & he said initially it was not attraction, but about a month in he started feeling differently about her.

Now I really again think he was not into her from the beginning, but she was always really into him, & wanted the physical way before Luke did, who obliged, & kept obliging, but with a lot of regrets.

Reg. the drinking, at the bachelorette party she was drinking & really got down with those strippers (gross actually). Maybe she drinks & gets really horny & he feels like he "has to" in a way, & that is "repulsive"...

Just some other thoughts & trying to make sense out of this somehow; ducking the tomatoes now.

18 minutes ago, ShowFan said:

I dearly hope they don’t reproduce. Imagine more AJs in this world..not cute. 

Maybe they'll take after Steph, but with eyebrows.

Edited March 20, 2019 by gonecrackers

[DrewPaul2010]

17 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

There is no way for us to know, But going by his own words, if Kate was drunk and he was sober but they still had sex, that was wrong of him because there are legal questions as to whether she could consent to that. The fact that he has repeatedly made her feel bad about their sex life hammers that home. Frankly if Luke was actually concerned about anything in terms of sex, he should have said something. He certainly had no problem going to the producers with his claims about Kate's drinking even if the evidence of her having a drinking problem is questionable.  

I suspect we only see the tip of the iceberg from what we can see Kate has never suggested something non-consensual happened. I've been more sympathetic toward Kate but a little less in this episode as I see more sides of her. Luke still seems very boyish for a 30 year old. Both of them may have wanted marriage yet neither seems suitable or ready for marriage. Of course no one really is but some have more realistic expectations than others. If they stay married at decision day don't expect them to be together in the re-union. 

[DrewPaul2010]

I know what the problem is...Luke and Kate should have been given the book 'Sex for Dummies'

[DrewPaul2010]

I hope for her sake AJ can recognize and get help for his lack of control and anger issues. Or we might see the ultimate blow up at decision day. She won't boot him on decision day but don't expect them to be married long.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

On Unfiltered, Luke seemed quite regretful over the sex, & it seemed like the repulsion was more toward himself, admitting he wasn't ready, & dead inside, due to going ahead with it.  

I thought he continued in his long and proud tradition of gaslighting and deflecting when he said that he "goes along" with sex because he knows "it's important to Kate." Once again, it's not his fault; he's just trying to be a good guy and make the marriage work; blah, blah, blah. He can't just spit out the truth, whatever it may be.

[pdlinda]

5 hours ago, ShowFan said:

Until the show is over and he starts getting stress from other things in life. And until he starts to get mad with her or at her

I seem to recall that some years ago AJ had a life-threatening motor vehicle accident (motorcycle???) in which he sustained a traumatic head injury.  Having worked in an associated field for many years and having had extensive training in TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries) many of his symptoms, especially his erratic and sometimes inappropriate behavior, may be attributable to this condition.  I wonder if he ever had a clinical assessment done at the time of the accident and follow-up treatment and care thereafter???  This is a chronic situation that has to be "managed" throughout one's life.  One thing is for SURE..drinking alcohol is never advised for these types of patients.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

46 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I seem to recall that some years ago AJ had a life-threatening motor vehicle accident (motorcycle???) in which he sustained a traumatic head injury.  Having worked in an associated field for many years and having had extensive training in TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries) many of his symptoms, especially his erratic and sometimes inappropriate behavior, may be attributable to this condition.  I wonder if he ever had a clinical assessment done at the time of the accident and follow-up treatment and care thereafter???  This is a chronic situation that has to be "managed" throughout one's life.  One thing is for SURE..drinking alcohol is never advised for these types of patients.

I've considered that possibility, too. I have noticed that most times when A.J. lost his temper, there was alcohol involved.

I personally know two people with brain damage who have "emotional lability" [-that's a condition of excessive emotional reactions and frequent mood changes-]. One is my sister-in-law, who has MS.

The other woman can cuss worse than any sailor ever did, and offend anyone in sight for hours at a time, then pull out her "handicapped" certification and get away with it. I don't know how much is really because she has can't control herself, and how much is simply because she can get away with it --but I do know that she takes advantage when she really wants something and thinks she can use manipulation to get what she wants. (I've seen her do it, and then crow with delight over her success.) 

Of course, the woman I described is (imho) a particularly hideous example. And I haven't seen A.J. do anything even close to that extreme -not even whacking Puke on the butt. But TBI's, as PDLinda said, can cause erratic behavior, and that might well explain A.J.'s behavior (most of the time) when he throws a tantrum. [I do think, though, that picking on Puke was because A.J. really can't stand the obnoxious jerk.] 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady

[justsayin]

I think in the discussion about Luke and Kate we're not factoring in editing as much as we could. She has gotten the angel edit, and he has gotten the devil edit, perhaps in part because he was more resistant to the "process". How many talking heads have we seen him give this season? I'm not sure I can think of any... I sense that Luke is more reluctant to discuss personal issues on film (so going on reality tv was completely nonsensical), whereas Kate was probably very cooperative with producers. 

I honestly believe after the most recent episode that Luke didn't give examples of Kate getting drunk on the regular when pressed to do so as a means of protecting some pact that he probably insisted they keep (i.e. I won't tell you're a lush if you don't tell I'm sleeping with you when I don't want to.) Again, this is reality tv so it was completely unreasonable and asinine of him to expect her to keep major drama points about their relationship secret from the cast and crew. 

I also have to say that I agreed with him when he stated that Decision Day is an arbitrary date. I mean, it totally is. They are ALREADY MARRIED. They can decide at any point to get a divorce or not. Clearly he doesn't understand the rules of reality tv, nor does he care to. And really, does he seem like the type of person who would?

I'm not saying any of this to let Luke off the hook. He objectively sucks. His behavior is objectively abusive. But Kate has issues too, one of which is probably alcohol abuse. It's understandable that she wouldn't admit to drunkenly pressuring him to have sex regularly because it's mortifying, but that's the most logical scenario. I'm sure this is a situation they are both going to look back on for a lifetime and cringe every single time.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I'm not saying any of this to let Luke off the hook. He objectively sucks. His behavior is objectively abusive. But Kate has issues too, one of which is probably alcohol abuse.

We have no evidence of this, at all, except Luke saying so (and being totally unable to produce a single example when asked to do so).

Quote

It's understandable that she wouldn't admit to drunkenly pressuring him to have sex regularly because it's mortifying, but that's the most logical scenario.

Why is that the most logical scenario? We only know of one time that she had been drinking and they had sex - the honeymoon. She could have been cold sober the other times. We also aren't clear that she is the one who has always initiated sex. We know that she has at least once but one of them also said that Luke sometimes initiates sex.

I'm just not willing to call someone an alcoholic without any other evidence of it than Luke saying so. 

Quote

I also have to say that I agreed with him when he stated that Decision Day is an arbitrary date. I

It is an arbitrary date but it is one that they both are well aware of, including the expectation that they make a decision about staying married or divorcing for the time being. I think it's ridiculous (and untrue) that he hasn't thought about it and I think it's crazy that they haven't talked about it. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Elizzikra

[aphroditewitch]

6 minutes ago, justsayin said:

I honestly believe after the most recent episode that Luke didn't give examples of Kate getting drunk on the regular when pressed to do so as a means of protecting some pact that he probably insisted they keep (i.e. I won't tell you're a lush if you don't tell I'm sleeping with you when I don't want to.) Again, this is reality tv so it was completely unreasonable and asinine of him to expect her to keep major drama points about their relationship secret from the cast and crew. 

I think that is highly unlikely. Especially since he brought up her drinking multiple times. Not getting specific is hardly keeping a secret on his part. He already said what was damaging. 

It also doesn't explain why Luke seems to accuse a lot of people of having drinking problems.  After he accused  Keith of having a drinking problem when he hardly knows him, Luke discredited himself. 

[DrewPaul2010]

Will and Jasmine

If Will is such an intellectual thinking kind of man why did he choose to have people pick a wife for him? I can't imagine they are going to agree to stay married.

Keith and Kristine

He seems very happy...not sure about her. She might not want to be a mom to her husband.

[DrewPaul2010]

32 minutes ago, justsayin said:

I honestly believe after the most recent episode that Luke didn't give examples of Kate getting drunk on the regular when pressed to do so as a means of protecting some pact that he probably insisted they keep (i.e. I won't tell you're a lush if you don't tell I'm sleeping with you when I don't want to.) Again, this is reality tv so it was completely unreasonable and asinine of him to expect her to keep major drama points about their relationship secret from the cast and crew. 

I thought only couples married 20 years plus need to drink to have sex...

[Retired at last]

I also had a problem with Luke being so shocked (or acted so) that the other couples were actually having conversations about D Day. Yes, it is an arbitrary date, but it is still the main focus of this show, especially now as we are towards (thankfully) the end.

I think the drinking is Luke's go-to excuse and he is sticking to it. However, since she admitted that they had sex and had been since the honeymoon, I am not in poor little Kate's camp anymore. There was no reason to keep that a secret and continue to play the "my husband doesn't find me attractive" card (which he still doesn't). Add that to her continued mumbling and indecisiveness, I am done and don't care what they do. I guess her new line could be, "My husband doesn't find me attractive, but at least we have weird, awkward pity sex."

Edited March 21, 2019 by Retired at last
additional thought

[Mazzy]

Could someone tell me when Luke said Kate was "out of it" on their honeymoon? Because I don't remember him saying that and I'm reading these comments and seeing all these narratives about him but none of them are real things that actually happened, they are just more stories of what people imagine. Like that he's gay because he isn't attracted to Kate - sorry but I don't think Kate's a prize. She's a grown woman who acts like a 15 year old. And basically that narrative suggests that no man would turn down ANY woman ever; that every man must be attracted to any and all women or he's gay. I just don't support that mindset.

And now we are telling a tale of rape?? Kate said she initiates sex but somehow even though she said it herself from her own mouth the story has been warped into her only initiating once (based on what? and when then was this one time?) and that he initiated on the honeymoon which Kate also didn't say. What she DID say is as follows: (watching the video and typing this verbatim)

Kate/Dr. P phone convo --------------------------------

Kate: "Luke and I have been having sex since the Honeymoon. And it's awkward. (cut to camera-talk: Luke asked me not to tell anyone about our sex life but Luke and I have had sex probably 5 or 6 times, and I just got to the point where I couldn't keep it a secret any longer) Luke just gets like very serious after sex, and quiet, and doesn't want to be around me. Usually like he'll, like, go into the other room and just not talk to me for two hours."

Dr. P: "What was going through your mind in the honeymoon when this turned out to be something different than you expected?"

Kate: "I didn't realize it was a much bigger deal for him. Like I just kinda thought 'it's our honeymoon, we're married, I like you, so far', and I just asked, and then like we did, and then it turns out he didn't want to, and then he just seemed really unhappy about it, and then I just felt terrible, and I feel like that really affected our sexual relationship since then."

Dr. P: "Right. How have you been dealing with your feelings when he shuts you off or leaves or sad or whatever else he does?"

Kate: "Because that has been his reaction I usually if he suggests having sex I talk to him a lot about it before hand and say like 'look I wanna make sure that you actually wanna do this and you don't just feel obligated because I'm your wife because I don't like how you get afterwards. Like I don't like that you, you know, leave the room or look unhappy' and, and then he's just like 'no it's fine it's fine' so then like we end up doing it and then he ends up getting weird again even though he says he's not going to and then I just feel terrible; I get really anxious cuz I don't know what's going on in his head. I don't know if I did something wrong, and I don't want him to like be sad or uncomfortable, especially after, like, having sex with me. Like that, like I almost like kinda panic attack, like the other time, because I was just like 'why are you being so weird', like, I don't understand."

cut to camera talk. Kate: "It's really weird to not feel desired but then also have Luke try to initiate sex. It was a difference between wanting to want to have sex with your wife and wanting to have sex with your wife and I really do think he just wants to want to."

---------------------------

So, Kate does eventually say that Luke initiates, but then in the car she said she initiates. Maybe that means both of them initiate. We don't know because cameras don't follow them into the bedroom, at least not when the actual intimacy begins. But what we DO know is that Kate initiated on their honeymoon and Kate initiated at the retreat and Kate claimed she initiates in the car conversation. Beyond that we have this phone call where Kate says he initiates and it's easy to grab onto every word and analyze it and pick it apart but I did find the one bit interesting when she said (paraphrased) "I almost (have a) panic attack like the other time, because 'why are you being so weird?'" which to me suggests a slip that really they've only had sex twice and if she initiated on the honeymoon - as SHE says from HER OWN MOUTH - and in the car she says she initiates... I dunno. I agree with the commentor that said neither her or Luke can be trusted to be telling the truth about what is going down with them. I think Kate is just as guilty of trying to paint herself as some perfect innocent victim as Luke is intent on painting himself as the victim.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Mazzy

[Crazy Bird Lady]

7 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

 Kate does eventually say that Luke initiates, but then in the car she said she initiates. Maybe that means both of them initiate. We don't know because cameras don't follow them into the bedroom, at least not when the actual intimacy begins. But what we DO know is that Kate initiated on their honeymoon and Kate initiated at the retreat and Kate claimed she initiates in the car conversation. Beyond that we have this phone call where Kate says he initiates and it's easy to grab onto every word and analyze it and pick it apart but I did find the one bit interesting when she said (paraphrased) "I almost (have a) panic attack like the other time, because 'why are you being so weird?'" which to me suggests a slip that really they've only had sex twice and if she initiated on the honeymoon - as SHE says from HER OWN MOUTH - and in the car she says she initiates... I dunno. I agree with teh commenter that said neither her or Luke can be trusted to be telling the truth about what is going down with them. I think Kate is just as guilty of trying to paint herself as some perfect innocent victim as Luke is intent on painting himself as the victim of being set up with someone with an alcohol problem.

Perhaps the problem is in how you define "initiates". 

At the risk of being banned for sexual crudeness: if she touches his boner and verifies that he has one, is that "initiating sex"??

...Or does "initiating sex" imply that a person actually begins doing something that, if continued long enough, will lead to orgasm??

There are so many things here that are really vague.

[Mazzy]

4 minutes ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Perhaps the problem is in how you define "initiates". 

At the risk of being banned for sexual crudeness: if she touches his boner and verifies that he has one, is that "initiating sex"??

...Or does "initiating sex" imply that a person actually begins doing something that, if continued long enough, will lead to orgasm??

There are so many things here that are really vague.

It's not MY definition of "initiate" though. This is word for word what KATE said. That is what I'm getting at. In the comments I read all these stories of how Luke did this or that and Kate was doing something else and yada yada yada... but none of those things seem to actually be true things, instead just made up by people who want to support one side or the other and so they are creating their own version of events. All we have to go on is what the characters/actors(??) are actually saying themselves and this is what Kate is actually saying herself.

PS - but I agree with you completely that it IS really vague, and that is why I'm starting to think Kate is being purposefully vague about this situation because in the car they seem to both agree that she is the initiator of sex, but to Dr. P she is clearly saying they both initiate it even though she can't name a specific time he has initiated it but we have been told specific times that she initiated it (honeymoon and retreat).

Edited March 21, 2019 by Mazzy

[DrewPaul2010]

Quote

At the risk of being banned for sexual crudeness: if she touches his boner and verifies that he has one, is that "initiating sex"??

Would be in my household...why else would someone want to if its hard?

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Dammit, if Kate was "blackout drunk"  that night, Puke should never have had sex with her in that state (--and it could certainly explain his secrecy)! 

But if she was "blackout drunk" how would he know?  Blackout isn't the same thing as "passed out."

[Mazzy]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

But if she was "blackout drunk" how would he know?  Blackout isn't the same thing as "passed out."

Well out of her own mouth she asked to have sex with him so she couldn't have been blacked out. If she were blacked out she couldn't remember specifically ASKING HIM to have sex with her.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Mazzy

[aphroditewitch]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

But if she was "blackout drunk" how would he know?  Blackout isn't the same thing as "passed out."

If she was intoxicated she could not consent, it doesn't matter if she was passed out or not.  And he claims to know when she is intoxicated. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

There are a whole lot of "grey areas" here...

Perhaps even Shades of Grey.

[Mazzy]

Just now, Crazy Bird Lady said:

There are a whole lot of "grey areas" here...

Perhaps even Shades of Grey.

I wouldn't call them grey areas. IMO they are more like vague areas where neither party is probably being truthful. The ONE thing we know for absolute certain is that Kate asked Luke to have sex with her on their honeymoon and she remembers having sex with him and asking him and his reaction afterward so she couldn't have been black out or passed out or anything like that because she remembers is in detail.

[aphroditewitch]

1 minute ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

There are a whole lot of "grey areas" here...

Perhaps even Shades of Grey.

The problem is Luke's story doesn't make sense. Luke is claiming she gets blacked out drunk. But she seems aware enough to describe his behavior, so she can't be blackout drunk during those times. She clearly described how he acted on the honeymoon and he confirmed that he said he felt repulsed and dead inside. 

[Soup333]

37 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

PS - but I agree with you completely that it IS really vague, and that is why I'm starting to think Kate is being purposefully vague about this situation because in the car they seem to both agree that she is the initiator of sex, but to Dr. P she is clearly saying they both initiate it even though she can't name a specific time he has initiated it but we have been told specific times that she initiated it (honeymoon and retreat).

I think it’s true that people get things construed since we could be half paying attention or have misheard or something. It’s also true that we’ve mostly all chosen our “side” even if it’s to be done with both Luke and Kate. 

When was Kate asked to be specific or to name a specific time he initiated sex? The wording above shows a bias as well. Nothing wrong with having chosen whose narrative you want to believe but I don’t recall her being asked to name any action specifically and then refusing or eluding to do so. Luke has been asked twice now to give examples of certain things though.

[justsayin]

Quote

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

t is an arbitrary date but it is one that they both are well aware of, including the expectation that they make a decision about staying married or divorcing for the time being. I think it's ridiculous (and untrue) that he hasn't thought about it and I think it's crazy that they haven't talked about it. 

I also think it's ridiculous and untrue that he hasn't thought about it or that they haven't discussed it (they have, on camera, when she said she was considering divorce). My point was only that he was correct in stating the date was arbitrary in that they are already married, so... the decision was made that day. This isn't "Play married for 6 weeks at first sight and then actually get married". 

Quote

We have no evidence of this, at all, except Luke saying so (and being totally unable to produce a single example when asked to do so).

They've been sure to supply us with many shots of her drinking white wine, especially in uncomfortable situations. I believe he went to producers about it in a "do you see this? this isn't good! capacity. She didn't deny getting black out drunk two nights before the trip. Again, I think he's using it as an excuse, but I don't think he's pulling it out of thin air. 

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

why is that the most logical scenario? We only know of one time that she had been drinking and they had sex - the honeymoon. She could have been cold sober the other times. We also aren't clear that she is the one who has always initiated sex. We know that she has at least once but one of them also said that Luke sometimes initiates sex.

I'm just not willing to call someone an alcoholic without any other evidence of it than Luke saying so. 

Quote

Because we've seen him before talking to her on camera about how when she gets drunk and pressures him to "kiss" him, he gets uncomfortable. Now we know it wasn't just kissing. And we know based on the number of times they've had sex, and the number of times she's asked and he's said no, it's a lot of the time. 

[Cammi]

I think these shady lil mofos need some Paranormal Activity style cameras up in that AirBNB so we can get the real story. Cuz it appears either Kate or Luke are lying liars who like to lie. 

[Elizzikra]

49 minutes ago, justsayin said:

I also think it's ridiculous and untrue that he hasn't thought about it or that they haven't discussed it (they have, on camera, when she said she was considering divorce). My point was only that he was correct in stating the date was arbitrary in that they are already married, so... the decision was made that day. This isn't "Play married for 6 weeks at first sight and then actually get married". 

They've been sure to supply us with many shots of her drinking white wine, especially in uncomfortable situations. I believe he went to producers about it in a "do you see this? this isn't good! capacity. She didn't deny getting black out drunk two nights before the trip. Again, I think he's using it as an excuse, but I don't think he's pulling it out of thin air. 

Because we've seen him before talking to her on camera about how when she gets drunk and pressures him to "kiss" him, he gets uncomfortable. Now we know it wasn't just kissing. And we know based on the number of times they've had sex, and the number of times she's asked and he's said no, it's a lot of the time. 

Getting blackout drunk doesn’t necessarily make you an alcoholic - and there is no evidence that it happened more than once (though having it happen more than once isn’t also definitively alcoholism). We don’t know that Kate is always drunk when she initiates sex nor do we know that she is always the one to initiate sex.

I think there is plenty of evidence that Kate drinks. They all drink. It may even be true that Kate drinks more than Luke would like her to drink (he doesn’t seem to like much about her so why not this?). None of this makes Kate an alcoholic. None of it makes her a problem drinker. The only evidence that Kate drinks any more often than anyone else on the show is Luke’s assertion that this is so. The only evidence of Kate’s “alcoholism” is Luke saying she has an alcohol problem. Luke lacks all credibility with me so I’m not going to stick an “alcoholic” label on Kate without much more evidence from many more credible sources.

[krbr51]

If Kate were completely wasted and constantly trying to unzip Luke's pants, it would make for great tv.  We would have seen it.  At least once.  It doesn't matter what "narrative" this couple is getting.  Drunk and horny Kate would be great for ratings.  The camera crew would be staying late to catch it.  

And thank God someone finally mentioned the K2 foot champagne.  That looked so horribly uncomfortable and unsanitary.... 

Edited March 21, 2019 by krbr51
Add

[lu1535]

11 hours ago, gonecrackers said:

Reg. the drinking, at the bachelorette party she was drinking & really got down with those strippers (gross actually). Maybe she drinks & gets really horny & he feels like he "has to" in a way, & that is "repulsive"...

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Luke who didn't want the stripper on him at the bachelor party? Seems to me he has some issues with sex.

[LennieBriscoe]

discoprincessthe2, Point taken. But Patti Stanger at least had some long-term relationships including an engagement, and,  on TV anyway,  never said any man's touch "repulsed" her or "made (her) feel dead inside."

All I know is,  if Kate doesn't seek a divorce, all my previous sympathy is out the window! 

One question: We've seen AJ "blow up" (I think he's just excitable, but for the sake of argument....). We've been privy to Will's not wanting sex with Jasmine and heard them disagree about money matters. We've heard Keith describe his own ambition or lack thereof, and Kristine's lack of eagerness to have children soon. We've watched Luke make personal digs at Kate. 

But when have we seen Kate dead-drunk?? Luke's main "storyline" about her,  and we've seen....?? Bupkis.

What show are we WATCHING,  people?!

Come on.  Luke the Puke is either an outright 100% LIAR,  or else  he is a major PRISSY HYPOCRITE. 

P. S.  Y'all know that the "Champagne Glass" is just a whirlpool hot tub,  right? That it's not filled with champagne? That it's as hygienic as any other hot tub,  maybe more than,  as it's only for two?

https://www.covepoconoresorts.com/suites/pocono-palace-suites/champagne-tower-suite/

Edited March 21, 2019 by LennieBriscoe

[Drogo]

Moderator's Note:

The people on this show are eligible for criticism.  Some of it won't be pretty, especially given recent events brought to light.  Speculation that one or more of them may have committed legal and/or moral transgressions during the "experiment" is allowed as it relates to what we've seen on the show.

[Neurochick]

First of all, "blackout drunk" isn't the same as "passed out drunk."  I've been blackout drunk and no one could tell, because I was conscious, I was talking, I was making sense.  The thing was, I couldn't remember what I said or did the next day.  It's like, one moment, I'm talking about the hostages in Iran and then next thing I knew I was getting into my friend's car to go back to campus.  I had zero memory of what happened in what I think was two hours.  Now, if someone had sex with me, would that have been rape?  They had zero idea that I was in a blackout.  

[Drogo]

Maybe I missed something.  Did Kate actually use the phrase "blackout drunk" or say she didn't remember having sex with Luke? 

[Soup333]

1 hour ago, LennieBriscoe said:

One question: We've seen AJ "blow up" (I think he's just excitable, but for the sake of argument....). We've been privy to Will's not wanting sex with Jasmine and heard them disagree about money matters. We've heard Keith describe his own ambition or lack thereof, and Kristine's lack of eagerness to have children soon. We've watched Luke make personal digs at Kate. 

But when have we seen Kate dead-drunk?? Luke's main "storyline" about her,  and we've seen....?? Bupkis.

What show are we WATCHING,  people?!

Come on.  Luke the Puke is either an outright 100% LIAR,  or else  he is a major PRISSY HYPOCRITE. 

I think the "worst" we've seen her was at their house party. But of course Luke and likely most of their guests had been drinking as well. 

For me it's a situation of repeating a lie often enough and it becoming the truth. Luke insists Kate is a drunken nympho who has pressured his penis into getting erect on numerous occasions and now people are questioning her sobriety even though we haven't DIRECTLY seen any evidence.

Maybe she was "blackout drunk" two days before the mini-moon (or whatever the timeline was). Maybe he was also "blackout drunk" the night he couldn't come home. Neither one denied these accusations. Maybe they both have a problem. Maybe neither one does and they just like to drink and get drunk on occasion. It's impossible to tell.

[aphroditewitch]

15 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

First of all, "blackout drunk" isn't the same as "passed out drunk."  I've been blackout drunk and no one could tell, because I was conscious, I was talking, I was making sense.  The thing was, I couldn't remember what I said or did the next day.  It's like, one moment, I'm talking about the hostages in Iran and then next thing I knew I was getting into my friend's car to go back to campus.  I had zero memory of what happened in what I think was two hours.  Now, if someone had sex with me, would that have been rape?  They had zero idea that I was in a blackout.  

But the legal question is not whether someone is blackout drunk. It is whether they are intoxicated, meaning they have a certain blood alcohol level. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Did Kate actually use the phrase "blackout drunk" or say she didn't remember having sex with Luke? 

Luke said that Kate was blackout drunk one night to the point that she couldn't remember the next day what she had done the night before. This was during the conversation in the car. Kate didn't disagree. It wasn't clear to me if that was one of the nights they had sex or not. Kate never said she didn't remember having sex with Luke.

I find their conversations very difficult to follow. Kate was asking about their sex life and Luke was responding with issues about her "drinking problem" so she was asking about five or six very specific incidents and he was responding with thoughts on her behavior overall in the time they have been together. 

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

But the legal question is not whether someone is blackout drunk. It is whether they are intoxicated, meaning they have a certain blood alcohol level. 

Intoxicated people can give consent.  (Incapacitated people can not.)  Blackout drunk just means your short term memory stops recording and you don't remember what you did the next day.  You are still in control of your actions at the time. 

Luke sucks, but IMO he's far from a rapist.

[aphroditewitch]

I'm going by the RAINN definition. While it varies by state, blackout drunk is not necessarily the legal requirement. 

[Neurochick]

7 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Intoxicated people can give consent.  (Incapacitated people can not.)  Blackout drunk just means your short term memory stops recording and you don't remember what you did the next day.  You are still in control of your actions at the time. 

Luke sucks, but IMO he's far from a rapist.

Right, blackout drunk doesn't mean you're incapacitated.  You're completely conscious, talking, making sense.  I've known people to drive/get married/get on airplanes all being blackout drunk.  Someone will say, "I came to and...." it doesn't mean they were passed out.  It feels like you were passed out.

Drogo is correct, blackout drunk means your short term memory just stops recording and the next day, or the in the next few hours, you have NO IDEA what happened.  Scary, but true.

[aphroditewitch]

What it comes down to, we don't know what happened or what Kate's level of conspicuousness was because the story about how drunk she was is coming from Luke who has proven to be unreliable and dishonest. However Luke's own statements were self-incriminating. He was so busy berating Kate, he never considered what he was revealing about himself. I don't expect Luke to be held accountable for anything he has done even if it does meet the legal requirements. 

[Cammi]

My co worker just weighed in on Luke and Kate situation, and he thinks Luke has a significant other or side piece. That is where he probably went for the one month anniversary and probably where he was when he did not come home and lied and said he was too drunk. He wasn't too drunk to come home, he was in his girl's bed. My co worker speculates it is also why Luke feels bad after sex (guilt) and wanted to keep it a secret from the public. So his real girlfriend / FWB would not find out. Luke did this for the publicity. He is just a stunt queen. Interesting theory. I asked him why he thought this and he just said "That guy ain't gay, he's just seeing someone else he might truly care for or be developing feelings for. Dude runs a singles meetup, he ain't hurting for attention from women." 

Luke probably thought he would get on the show, get saddled with a "Jasmine" type, play the gentleman like Will (no sex) and get exposure. Instead he got the emotionally damaged, monotone, needy mess that is Kate. 

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Cammi said:

My co worker just weighed in on Luke and Kate situation, and he thinks Luke has a significant other or side piece. That is where he probably went for the one month anniversary and probably where he was when he did not come home and lied and said he was too drunk. He wasn't too drunk to come home, he was in his girl's bed. My co worker speculates it is also why Luke feels bad after sex (guilt) and wanted to keep it a secret from the public. So his real girlfriend / FWB would not find out. Luke did this for the publicity. He is just a stunt queen. Interesting theory. I asked him why he thought this and he just said "That guy ain't gay, he's just seeing someone else he might truly care for or be developing feelings for. Dude runs a singles meetup, he ain't hurting for attention from women." 

Luke probably thought he would get on the show, get saddled with a "Jasmine" type, play the gentleman like Will (no sex) and get exposure. Instead he got the emotionally damaged, monotone, needy mess that is Kate. 

The issue with that theory is Luke did not have sex with Kate or treat her in a crappy way after sex. It doesn't matter whether she is needy or not, plenty of couples on the show over the years never consummated the marriage and just went back to their normal lives after the show is over. He wants her to feel bad about this relationship. There is more going on than a possible outside girlfriend or boyfriend. 

[Starlight925]

11 hours ago, krbr51 said:

If Kate were completely wasted and constantly trying to unzip Luke's pants, it would make for great tv.  We would have seen it.  At least once.  It doesn't matter what "narrative" this couple is getting.  . 

Something way worse than the thought of Kate climbing all over Luke.....

Jamie Otis wins "The Worst Kiss in Bachelor History"

FF to 5:18 to watch how desperate/awkward/ridiculous Jamie was as a bachelor contestant:

[Soup333]

25 minutes ago, Sterling said:

Something way worse than the thought of Kate climbing all over Luke.....

Jamie Otis wins "The Worst Kiss in Bachelor History"

FF to 5:18 to watch how desperate/awkward/ridiculous Jamie was as a bachelor contestant:

I cringed the entire time. Wow. 

[DrewPaul2010]

2 hours ago, Cammi said:

My co worker just weighed in on Luke and Kate situation, and he thinks Luke has a significant other or side piece. That is where he probably went for the one month anniversary and probably where he was when he did not come home and lied and said he was too drunk. He wasn't too drunk to come home, he was in his girl's bed. My co worker speculates it is also why Luke feels bad after sex (guilt) and wanted to keep it a secret from the public. So his real girlfriend / FWB would not find out. Luke did this for the publicity. He is just a stunt queen. Interesting theory. I asked him why he thought this and he just said "That guy ain't gay, he's just seeing someone else he might truly care for or be developing feelings for. Dude runs a singles meetup, he ain't hurting for attention from women."

Entertaining theory...

I agree I find it hard to believe Luke was in a desperate search for a wife...

[DrewPaul2010]

Quote

I think in the discussion about Luke and Kate we're not factoring in editing as much as we could. She has gotten the angel edit, and he has gotten the devil edit, perhaps in part because he was more resistant to the "process". How many talking heads have we seen him give this season? I'm not sure I can think of any... I sense that Luke is more reluctant to discuss personal issues on film (so going on reality tv was completely nonsensical), whereas Kate was probably very cooperative with producers. 

Its possible one has gotten a more favorable edit...I'm just curious how you would know? Luke seems like a guy who put in an application as a lark and never thought it would go this far. There is a big difference between two people pretending to be married and two people accepting the idea they are married and this is their spouse. Luke has pretended since the alter. Kate should have separated several weeks ago and let Luke figure out if he wants a wife...

I predict two couples will agree to stay married...but by reunion time it will be a big fat zero.

[Lusterleaf]

2 hours ago, Sterling said:

Something way worse than the thought of Kate climbing all over Luke.....

Jamie Otis wins "The Worst Kiss in Bachelor History"

FF to 5:18 to watch how desperate/awkward/ridiculous Jamie was as a bachelor contestant:

Ughh. Never a fan of Jamie O. Always thought she was/is a fame wh*re. And you cannot convince me that she is actually into Doug.