S01.E09: Songs About Texas

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

While I think Michael/Alex have chemistry, and I wasn't enough of a Michael/Maria fan (I liked them, but they weren't my OTP) for it to derail my enjoyment if Michael doesn't end up with her this time around, I agree that it's Tyler playing things like he's holding back, not Vlamis. 

I definitely think the writers made a mistake having the trio actively cover up Rosa's death like they did, whoever ultimately killed her, and I wouldn't have held it against Liz if she could never get over it, but I'm also not that fussed that she's forgiven them (at least Max and Michael) and I'm trying to figure out why? LOL. Maybe it's because I don't particularly like Rosa. Objectively, I take a step back and they did a terrible thing, but I have a hard time emotionally connecting to her or to her relationship with Liz. 

I wonder if they made Rosa look as difficult as possible to explain why Liz was so focused on being "perfect" in comparison.

One thing I totally connected to in Liz during that speech by Max about how she tried to be perfect in the eyes of her parents, society (model minority!!!) so she would be accepted and loved - when Max told her that she didn't have to be - that he saw her flaws and loved her anyway - that got to me.  That was beautiful.

Everything Max said about Liz - about her having to present perfection to others, make sure she's credited for being smart (because so often that can be dismissed if you don't assert it), etc... that whole model minority thing really hit and touched a nerve deep inside of me - Max speaking directly to those anxieties made me swoon.

[phoenics]

22 minutes ago, Callaphera said:

I'm not arguing against representation because it's important. I don't know whether the people behind the show purposely casted a black actress in the role or whether she was simply the best match for the role. But from a story standpoint, Maria really doesn't have much and doesn't have much room even if they gave her anything. She bridged the gap between Liz and Rosa by somehow being both of their besties back in the day and her mom is connected to the myth arc - but they didn't bother bringing it up until halfway through the first season which makes it seem more like an after-thought. That's... about it, really. 

(All with a heavy dose of IMO incoming) They don't seem to have any reason for her - which is unfair, because the actress is good - but at the same time, we've got three relationships and three mysteries running at the same time. They made the show too ambitious for the first season and we're not getting enough time to spend on each relationship and each mystery so I can see why there's no room for Maria - unless she joins the Junior Alien-Busters in the Bunker. I'd rather Maria be underused than shoehorned in to throw a bone to the OG fans, which is how the Michael/Maria desert sexing came across to me (I also don't like her being the spoiler to the only same sex relationship on the show). There's no breathing room to make her anything but a wacky side character who shows up to point Liz in the right direction for the episode and then go back to being wacky. I'm surprised that they didn't have her hook up with Kyle in a Pair the Spares trope. 

Maybe it's because I'm not an OG fan and I've never read the books but again, this is neither. This is it's own beast for good or bad. Maybe they have plans for Maria if the show continues beyond the first season but right now, I honestly don't see space for the character other than popping up occasionally the same way Isobel's husband has - and he's married to one of the main characters. 

Hmmmm I guess I was trying to say that if they were going to erase her as you've so eloquently described them as doing (that's our complaint btw), they they shouldn't have made her black.  Unless that was the whole plan in the first place.  With Julie Plec's track record - they have to prove (to me at least) that wasn't their plan from the start.

And not for nothing but I HATE that they've put two marginalized groups in the position of having to resent the other for their ship sailing.  

I remember being excited when Maria was cast and thinking wow - my favorite show franchise EVER will have an interracial pairing!  Then I found out about M&A and was like - wow that's great for them - but I suddenly felt like (as a black woman) that I'd been slapped in the face... like

"Oh... that's why they cast her... so no one would complain or care when they erased her."

I hate that feeling.

Edited March 21, 2019 by phoenics

[Callaphera]

5 minutes ago, phoenics said:

The point is if they were going to erase her as you've so eloquently described them as doing (that's our complaint btw), they they shouldn't have made her black.  Unless that was the whole plan in the first place.  With Julie Plec's track record - they have to prove (to me at least) that wasn't their plan from the start.

But again, did they cast her because she's a black actress and they wanted a broader representation or because she was the best actress for the role? She's still on screen and being represented, she's just doesn't have as big of a role as OG fans would like. I'd rather see her in a small role than be forced into this story line and that story line where she doesn't logically belong just because. Better to be under-used than mis-used. 

Logically, where can Maria fit in now, in the story?

5 minutes ago, phoenics said:

And not for nothing but I HATE that they've put two marginalized groups in the position of having to resent the other for their ship sailing.  

Yeah, this to me is worse than under-using the actress. That's just going to be ugly if they continue to go that route. They basically backed themselves into a corner with that one, there's no good way of coming out of that. Unless they have a bi-sexual poly threesome. Which I am perfectly all right with. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Callaphera

[phoenics]

6 minutes ago, Callaphera said:

But again, did they cast her because she's a black actress and they wanted a broader representation or because she was the best actress for the role? She's still on screen and being represented, she's just doesn't have as big of a role as OG fans would like. I'd rather see her in a small role than be forced into this story line and that story line where she doesn't logically belong just because. Better to be under-used than mis-used. 

Logically, where can Maria fit in now, in the story?

Yeah, this to me is worse than under-using the actress. That's just going to be ugly if they continue to go that route. They basically backed themselves into a corner with that one, there's no good way of coming out of that. Unless they have a bi-sexual poly threesome. Which I am perfectly all right with. 

Personally - since erasure (under-utilization) is such a huge deal with how they write black women characters and how it's actually just tokenism, no, under-utilization is just as bad as mis-use.  Tokenism doesn't help.  It means the character has no equity and it's empty.  It means they are never centered.  It's 2019.  Can we stop erasing black women in narratives now?

I'd rather not deal with the pain of seeing her erased like this - especially if that's why they cast her as black in the first place (even if it was unconscious on their parts).

I will reiterate a point I made earlier that may have gotten buried - I think that the M&M banter is needed.  It's the only levity besides Cam the show has and that's been missing.  It's hurting the show to have it take itself so seriously.  Both Kyle and Alex (who used to be funny on the OGshow and Alex was funny in the books) are not funny at all - they come off really stiff to me (though Alex is growing on me).  Michael is funny - and even funnier in scenes with Maria.  Max has his moments.  Isobel has dark comedic timing... but honestly - without the M&M hilarious banter - I don't think this show will make it.  It's so dark that it needs levity to pull it out of the deep dramatic hole it dug early on in the season.

Edited March 21, 2019 by phoenics

[Callaphera]

3 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Personally - since erasure (under-utilization) is such a huge deal with how they write black women characters and how it's actually just tokenism, no, under-utilization is just as bad as mis-use.  Tokenism doesn't help.  It means the character has no equity and it's empty.  It means they are never centered.  It's 2019.  Can we stop erasing black women in narratives now?

I'd rather not deal with the pain of seeing her erased like this - especially if that's why they cast her as black in the first place (even if it was unconscious on their parts).

I can understand that. Thank you for the explanation, I guess I wasn't looking at it quite like that. 

[Aliconehead]

I just realized that Lily Cowles (Isabel) is Christine Baranski’s daughter.  Now I want her out of the pod so I can see if there is resemblance in there mannerism. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Aliconehead
Spell a name right

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Everything Max said about Liz - about her having to present perfection to others, make sure she's credited for being smart (because so often that can be dismissed if you don't assert it), etc... that whole model minority thing really hit and touched a nerve deep inside of me - Max speaking directly to those anxieties made me swoon.

If you put aside Rosa, lol, I can absolutely see why these two people appeal to each other, perhaps more than other versions, even. I can see why an outgoing, engaging girl who shared her music drew in a painfully shy boy who had no words. I can see why Max started to appeal to her in high school - he was everything Kyle wasn't, at a time when Kyle wasn't so great. And I can see why that speech of his hit her like a ton of bricks in this episode. She is terrified of being flawed, and he told her he knew exactly how flawed she was and he loves her anyway, and perhaps even finds her flaws endearing. 

[Chick2Chic]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Oh... that's why they cast her... so no one would complain or care when they erased her."

I hate that feeling.

This is exactly how I feel. To me, it sends the message that it is ok to disregard Black women because viewers care less if they are screwed over on shows. For me, even if Maria hadn't been racebent, I would be salty cause I enjoyed her on OG Roswell as her own entertaining & core character as well as her relationships with Liz and Michael. That they made Maria a Black woman in Roswell NM then sidelined her so much they either don"t realize how bad it looks or don't care, is gross as hell. I am so tired of seeing Black women on shows being treated like they don't matter and I shouldn't be surprised this has happened on the watch of a Plec protege considering the deserved notoriety she earned for misogynoir with her treatment of Bonnie Bennett.

I am also cynical in thinking that benching Maria for most of S1 wasn't solely due to the actress having filming schedule conflicts. 

Anywho, I want to see what develops with Michael & Maria going forward after the desert hook-up. Like Michael, I don't buy it won't happen again between them. I also firmly believe that Maria shouldn't have to be benched so that other characters can thrive. If that is the case, then that is a problem with the other characters and not Maria & she shouldn't have to suffer for it. 

[ellieart]

16 hours ago, Callaphera said:

But again, did they cast her because she's a black actress and they wanted a broader representation or because she was the best actress for the role? She's still on screen and being represented, she's just doesn't have as big of a role as OG fans would like. I'd rather see her in a small role than be forced into this story line and that story line where she doesn't logically belong just because. Better to be under-used than mis-used. 

Logically, where can Maria fit in now, in the story?

In my personal opinion...they didn't cast her because she was right for the role, but because she's a black woman and they wanted a racebent Maria.  It's like the CW has a list of things they want in shows and this was one of those boxes they had to check off.  Heather Hemmens IS right for the role, but she's not getting the chance to prove it.  Maria being on this show isn't just to please the book and OG fans, it's because she was an important character in both iterations and she SHOULD be just as important here.  It doesn't matter that this version is completely different from the books and its predecessor, she plays just as big of a role as the rest of the characters.  They knew they had a 13 episode season and they should have done a better job at telling their story in those 13 episodes and a better job at including all the characters in that story in that time.  Maria is more than the best friend (or in this case, not even really that here), she's more than the wacky sidekick , more than just a love interest (which they ultimately stripped her of anyway), she's just more and she's not even being given a chance.  I have a huge problem with the way the only black woman on this show is being treated and minimized.  I have a huge problem with that on any show.  It's not ok to minimize one group to boost another.

Also on the topic chemistry between Michael and Alex, I don't really see it at all.  They look awkward and uncomfortable with each other and I see it mostly as Tyler having trouble really going for it.  Michael and Maria had this natural chemistry and movement in their scenes, which is why I don't think it's Vlamis that's the issue with M/A.  Hell, I think M/M have way more chemistry in their few scenes than M/A and M/L as a whole.

Edited March 22, 2019 by ellieart

[Whodunnit]

So they tell us that Maria was friends with Liz, Rosa, and Alex. When Liz first learns that Rosa was murdered she goes to Kyle and blabs everything, but later when she goes to Maria she keeps her lips sealed. A few episodes later Alex comes in and informs the audience and Liz that her long hours spent in the lab (cooking up a gene therapy 'cure' to alien powers) means that she has been ignoring Maria so much that she didn't notice that Mimi's health was deteriorating. Now, finally we get a girl's night episode with banter  (and that part is great) but Maria is still in the dark about the Aliens when everyone else knows. Liz what are you waiting for?

Edited March 22, 2019 by Whodunnit

[Cristofle]

13 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

So they tell us that Maria was friends with Liz, Rosa, and Alex. When Liz first learns that Rosa was murdered she goes to Kyle and blabs everything, but later when she goes to Maria she keeps her lips sealed. A few episodes later Alex comes in and informs the audience and Liz that her long hours spent in the lab (cooking up a gene therapy 'cure' to alien powers) means that she has been ignoring Maria so much that she didn't notice that Mimi's health was deteriorating. Now, finally we get a girl's night episode with banter  (and that part is great) but Maria is still in the dark about the Aliens when everyone else knows. Liz what are you waiting for?

From a storyline standpoint, it probably would have been best for Liz to tell Maria right after she found out the truth about Rosa's death (or the truth as the aliens know it, at least). Now she's past being angry, she's friendly with Michael and doing whatever she's doing with Max, and I think it's unlikely she would tell Maria without their permission. 

That said, I wondered if Max's ruminating on if he should do more to try to heal people in this episode will eventually lead Liz to suggest he try to heal Mimi, and that's how Maria will find out.

[I-Kare]

Chemistry is an interesting thing and so subjective. Everyone will view characters and couples with their own backgrounds and relationships - as well as preferences - in play. You can see evidence of this in this very thread. 

I'm just happy that shipping is the least interesting part of tv shows for me (nowadays). Less angst that way, it seems. I made the mistake the first time around of taking an interest in Michael/Isobel and good lord, that was my first experience being "attacked" for liking a pairing of fictional characters. Don't worry, I'm not shipping them this time around. 😆

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Cristofle said:

From a storyline standpoint, it probably would have been best for Liz to tell Maria right after she found out the truth about Rosa's death (or the truth as the aliens know it, at least). Now she's past being angry, she's friendly with Michael and doing whatever she's doing with Max, and I think it's unlikely she would tell Maria without their permission. 

That said, I wondered if Max's ruminating on if he should do more to try to heal people in this episode will eventually lead Liz to suggest he try to heal Mimi, and that's how Maria will find out.

This^ seems like the most logical, cohesive direction for these plots to go.
I just hope they drop a few lines pointing the viewers to these conclusions before it's too late to avoid fan backlash cries of WTF?, because without reading your post, @Cristofle, I would never have figured this out.
But maybe if I watched each episode twice (like I did the OG show), I would have reached the same conclusions.
  
  

1 hour ago, I-Kare said:

Chemistry is an interesting thing and so subjective. Everyone will view characters and couples with their own backgrounds and relationships - as well as preferences - in play. You can see evidence of this in this very thread. 

I'm just happy that shipping is the least interesting part of tv shows for me (nowadays). Less angst that way, it seems. I made the mistake the first time around of taking an interest in Michael/Isobel and good lord, that was my first experience being "attacked" for liking a pairing of fictional characters. Don't worry, I'm not shipping them this time around. 😆

I was probably one of the oldest (if not the oldest) of the OG Roswell fanatics, and, as a mom at the time of 3 daughters 10-20, I never bashed any shippers no matter what their stripes.
That said, on behalf of all the immature OG fans of that era, I want to apologize (just like I would apologize for inappropriate actions of my kids) to you, @I-Kare, and any others who felt the sting of troll-like posts directed at you because of your opinions and preferences regarding the show.
Anyway, I was a Max-Liz shipper ("Dreamer") back then, but don't really care about either Max or Liz in this version.
Still, the alien mystery aspects have me mildly intrigued, so I'm still on board.

[I-Kare]

7 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I was probably one of the oldest (if not the oldest) of the OG Roswell fanatics, and, as a mom at the time of 3 daughters 10-20, I never bashed any shippers no matter what their stripes.
That said, on behalf of all the immature OG fans of that era, I want to apologize (just like I would apologize for inappropriate actions of my kids) to you, @I-Kare, and any others who felt the sting of troll-like posts directed at you because of your opinions and preferences regarding the show.
Anyway, I was a Max-Liz shipper ("Dreamer") back then, but don't really care about either Max or Liz in this version.
Still, the alien mystery aspects have me mildly intrigued, so I'm still on board.

You're so sweet, but no need to apologize. I'm a few months from 50 now, so I've learned to not take that sort of (really odd) hate personally. I'm actually still friends with a few Michael/Isobel shippers (Cliffhangers) to this day, so the experience was worth it. 

I'm with you, I like the mystery aspect of this series even if I'm not overly invested - yet- in any of the actors. I often wish they'd just started over with a new generation of aliens rather than kept the same names because I think that just begs for comparison and it's not always favorable if the comments here this week are any indication of the general consensus. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by I-Kare

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, I-Kare said:

I often wish they'd just started over with a new generation of aliens rather than kept the same names because I think that just begs for comparison and it's not always favorable

ITA. I used to think a reboot would likely happen after 10 years (instead of frickin' 20!), and I always imagined it would feature either the OG characters (which would be about the age of this version's characters) or their kids. But totally new characters would have been good too. Maybe they could do a little retcon and have all of this show's characters named after their namesakes.

[Artsda]

I really enjoyed this episode. Maria&Michael are just so fun to watch with each other. 

[Scarlett45]

On 3/21/2019 at 4:52 PM, phoenics said:

I wonder if they made Rosa look as difficult as possible to explain why Liz was so focused on being "perfect" in comparison.

One thing I totally connected to in Liz during that speech by Max about how she tried to be perfect in the eyes of her parents, society (model minority!!!) so she would be accepted and loved - when Max told her that she didn't have to be - that he saw her flaws and loved her anyway - that got to me.  That was beautiful.

Everything Max said about Liz - about her having to present perfection to others, make sure she's credited for being smart (because so often that can be dismissed if you don't assert it), etc... that whole model minority thing really hit and touched a nerve deep inside of me - Max speaking directly to those anxieties made me swoon.

Yes me too. Plus hes dreamy!

[the-grey-lady]

I'm baffled by the musical choices on this show (although I like a lot of the songs). Are Counting Crows/Alanis Morissette/etc. supposed to be the songs Liz and her friends listened to in high school? And aren't they supposed to be 10 years out of high school, so in their late 20s? Because the songs that play on the cafe jukebox and whatnot are songs I listened to in high school, and I graduated 10 years before anyone on this show.

Alanis Morissette's debut album came out in the mid-90s...when Liz would've been about five years old.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, the-grey-lady said:

I'm baffled by the musical choices on this show (although I like a lot of the songs). Are Counting Crows/Alanis Morissette/etc. supposed to be the songs Liz and her friends listened to in high school? And aren't they supposed to be 10 years out of high school, so in their late 20s? Because the songs that play on the cafe jukebox and whatnot are songs I listened to in high school, and I graduated 10 years before anyone on this show.

Alanis Morissette's debut album came out in the mid-90s...when Liz would've been about five years old.

They seem to be songs from the time of the OG show.

[Cristofle]

3 hours ago, the-grey-lady said:

I'm baffled by the musical choices on this show (although I like a lot of the songs). Are Counting Crows/Alanis Morissette/etc. supposed to be the songs Liz and her friends listened to in high school? And aren't they supposed to be 10 years out of high school, so in their late 20s? Because the songs that play on the cafe jukebox and whatnot are songs I listened to in high school, and I graduated 10 years before anyone on this show.

Alanis Morissette's debut album came out in the mid-90s...when Liz would've been about five years old.

I think it's a showrunner preference? Carina really seems to love the '90s. It's written like Rosa was super fond of that time period and Liz and Maria have adopted it in her absence. But it is odd, lol, because they play more my kind of music than music of people who graduated in 2008. 

I actually originally thought it was a shout-out to the OG show - Max loved Counting Crows - but I think it's just Carina's thing that she's put into the show. 

[ellieart]

4 hours ago, the-grey-lady said:

I'm baffled by the musical choices on this show (although I like a lot of the songs). Are Counting Crows/Alanis Morissette/etc. supposed to be the songs Liz and her friends listened to in high school? And aren't they supposed to be 10 years out of high school, so in their late 20s? Because the songs that play on the cafe jukebox and whatnot are songs I listened to in high school, and I graduated 10 years before anyone on this show.

Alanis Morissette's debut album came out in the mid-90s...when Liz would've been about five years old.

Yeah it's the showrunner's thing.  She's obsessed with the 90s and 90s music.  Which is one of my issues with this show...it's jarring considering the ages of these characters and it doesn't fit.  She's using Rosa as the bridge between the music, even though Rosa is I think 2 years older than Liz, so it still doesn't work. 

[phoenics]

On 3/27/2019 at 6:58 PM, ellieart said:

Yeah it's the showrunner's thing.  She's obsessed with the 90s and 90s music.  Which is one of my issues with this show...it's jarring considering the ages of these characters and it doesn't fit.  She's using Rosa as the bridge between the music, even though Rosa is I think 2 years older than Liz, so it still doesn't work. 

It works if you take into consideration that the jukebox in the Crashdown is broken and can only play 90s songs.  Apparently a scene was cut in the pilot explaining this.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

It works if you take into consideration that the jukebox in the Crashdown is broken and can only play 90s songs.  Apparently a scene was cut in the pilot explaining this.

I love this lol. 

[KittenPokerCheater]

I like that all the episode titles are from the 90s.  I hope they keep it (assuming there is a season two).

[Cristofle]

I mean, I love the songs. These are MY songs, lol, from when I grew up. I've been listening to Jagged Little Pill on my way into the city most mornings for like two weeks now. But then, I watched the OG show when it was first airing, too. So I'm older than the characters.

[methodwriter85]

On 3/21/2019 at 7:23 PM, Aliconehead said:

I just realized that Lily Cowles (Isabel) is Christine Baranski’s daughter.  Now I want her out of the pod so I can see if there is resemblance in there mannerism. 

I think they have similar mannerisms and vocal inflections, but Lily's face is all her dad, the late Matthew Cowles. Christine's other daughter Isabel looks more like her IMO.

The 90's stuff is an intentional nod to OG Roswell. Also, let's be honestly, most mid/late 2000's stuff was pretty awful, unless you get into indie bands.

Edited April 15, 2019 by methodwriter85

[Quickbeam]

I’ve been hit or miss on this version of Roswell ( was a devotee to the original show) but having Michael be bisexual? Brilliant. This episode was the strongest one I’ve seen so far. 

[AudienceofOne]

On 3/31/2019 at 9:33 AM, Cristofle said:

I mean, I love the songs. These are MY songs, lol, from when I grew up. I've been listening to Jagged Little Pill on my way into the city most mornings for like two weeks now. But then, I watched the OG show when it was first airing, too. So I'm older than the characters.

Oh me too, this is my era. But as much as I love the soundtrack personally, sometimes a song will play and I'll go 'whaaa' because I can't work out what the choice says about the scene or the characters or the plot or the context. It's like a deliberate musical ode to something that has no relevance to anything else about the show.