The Case Against Adnan Syed - General Discussion

[Guest]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

How is this just a non fiction show and not an HBO documentary? Just trying to understand how things are categorized.

It's like The Jinx; it's not a documentary film, it's a series.

[biakbiak]

17 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

It's like The Jinx; it's not a documentary film, it's a series.

Is there an ep or time guideline because this is only slightly longer than Leaving Neverland and a few eps short of The Jinx. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by biakbiak

[Guest]

1 minute ago, biakbiak said:

Is their an ep or time guideline because this is only slightly longer than Leaving Neverland and a few eps short of The Jinx. 

HBO classifies this as a doc-series so it doesn't per se fall under the HBO Documentaries category. If anyone has any other questions about how shows are categorized here, please PM me. 

[Milburn Stone]

6 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

How is this just a non fiction show and not an HBO documentary? Just trying to understand how things are categorized.

You're making me realize I wish this show had more than 4 episodes. I don't care if it only takes 4 episodes to tell the story! 🙂

[TattleTeeny]

19 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

But according to what I read, her parents were already concerned the day she went missing. Which means by the next day, it was most likely the talk of their circle of friends. I may not remember what I did six weeks ago, but I certainly remember yesterday, esp if I hear my ex went missing. 

They had no school for the next few days due to an ice storm and the weekend. And she also had a new boyfriend, which may have made her friends assume she was hanging out with him. With power outages throughout the city, phones were down, and there were very few cell phones among teenagers back then (much less FB, Twitter, etc.), so constant contact wasn't the norm like it is now so her friends likely had no reason to worry. 

It's not farfetched, per various experts, for a day to become a memorable only after something memorable happens. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by TattleTeeny

[lucindabelle]

Right. I remember where I was when the towers fell, and what happened right around that time and later that day. I remember the day before, because we had taken a beloved cat to be put down after a long struggle with cancer. But three days before? I'd have to check email to see. I know where I was, as in what town and state.

Or more recently. I've been trying to keep a five year diary, each day has five little spaces. Typically rather than enter each day I enter at the end of the week. If I let it go too long I can't fill them in at all. I remember if I was at a play that night, for example, but sometimes the only way I know what I've done is from looking at my to do lists. If I happened not to have a to do list that day, it's a big old shrug.

Right now-- TODAY-- I had to check my phone to see what I did last Friday. A lot of things, actually. And bear in mind that students didn't have cell phones with calendars to check and keep appointments, and anyway, nobody's going to put "sell pot with Jay" on a calendar...

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Right. I remember where I was when the towers fell, and what happened right around that time and later that day. I remember the day before, because we had taken a beloved cat to be put down after a long struggle with cancer. But three days before? I'd have to check email to see. I know where I was, as in what town and state.

Or more recently. I've been trying to keep a five year diary, each day has five little spaces. Typically rather than enter each day I enter at the end of the week. If I let it go too long I can't fill them in at all. I remember if I was at a play that night, for example, but sometimes the only way I know what I've done is from looking at my to do lists. If I happened not to have a to do list that day, it's a big old shrug.

Right now-- TODAY-- I had to check my phone to see what I did last Friday. A lot of things, actually. And bear in mind that students didn't have cell phones with calendars to check and keep appointments, and anyway, nobody's going to put "sell pot with Jay" on a calendar...

Exactly--I remember my day after I learned of the Towers falling; I can't tell you what time I left my apartment that morning for work, which was before it happened, but I can remember, almost two decades later, that after we heard that news, we were dismissed early and that I got home from work at about 2 in the afternoon and that I was not wearing a jacket because it was warm, clear, and sunny out (and that stopped at a red light at the top of a hill, I could see the smoke).  

Edited March 21, 2019 by TattleTeeny

[Sarahsmile416]

18 hours ago, biakbiak said:

People always say this but pot effects people differently and different strands of pot have different effects and it’s not necessarily the same reaction every time for the individual. Not to mention even pot can be laced with shit and can make people super paranoid/antsy. 

A dude I was friends in college with who was perhaps the sweetest most calm person I have ever met entered up high and paranoid as fuck and killed his friend/drug connection and ended up in prison. Shit happens and “it was only pot” has never been a believable excuse for me. I likely couldn’t have convicted of Adnan based on the evidence given at trial but I am also not convinced of his innocence. 

This is true, also true that it’s hard to really tell what Adnan is capable of based on the little I have seen.  

That being said, I too would not have convicted based on the evidence presented 

[atlantaloves]

Well I think this guy is innocent, and I am a crime show junkie, and hate everybody and want them to rot....that's just my 2 cents so far. I am enthralled with this series. I really don't think the guy did it. 

[TattleTeeny]

I think he's innocent too.

[sum]

Episode 03 Preview https://www.hbo.com/video/the-case-against-adnan-syed/seasons/episodes/episodes/episode-3/videos/preview

That better not be an overstatement. 

So many confusing details, it's 2014 Serial rabbit hole all over again. 

 

[JoeyCrown]

 What motive would Jay have?

[SheTalksShit]

I need to watch this. 

[TattleTeeny]

11 hours ago, JoeyCrown said:

 What motive would Jay have?

Maybe no motive for murder, but motive to say what the cops wanted him to.

Edited March 22, 2019 by TattleTeeny

[teddysmom]

On 3/22/2019 at 12:45 PM, TattleTeeny said:

What motive would Jay have?

He had other crimes they could charge him for, selling and possession.   They told him they'd let it drop if he would testify against Adnan.    The one woman was testifying based on what Jay told her, not what she actually knew.  The other woman Kristi, realizes in Epi 3 that the cops told her the wrong day, or she got confused.  

Because if I decide to murder someone, I'm going to do it in the Best Buy parking lot in broad daylight. Also, my #1 place to have sex in a car. 

[TattleTeeny]

Huh? I never asked what motive Jay had.

[teddysmom]

47 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Huh? I never asked what motive Jay had.

Sorry I grabbed quote from wrong comment. 

[Sarahsmile416]

I was actually somewhat annoyed today by the way they all so casually threw Adnan’s first lawyer under the bus.  Yes, she was clearly ineffective but seeing that she had died from complications from MS sort of makes her errors understandable if she was going through that at the time of the trial.

Jay’s old friend, Jen is also annoying me. I get that you want your space from the whole thing, but damn, your trouble is not that trial, it’s letting Jay drag you through everything...and in the meantime, a potentially innocent guy has been sitting in jail for 20 years.

[biakbiak]

36 minutes ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I was actually somewhat annoyed today by the way they all so casually threw Adnan’s first lawyer under the bus.  Yes, she was clearly ineffective but seeing that she had died from complications from MS sort of makes her errors understandable if she was going through that at the time of the trial.

This was a first degree murder case if she couldn’t handle it due to her health and didn’t recuse herself that doesn’t excuse her gross negligence.

[Sarahsmile416]

58 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

This was a first degree murder case if she couldn’t handle it due to her health and didn’t recuse herself that doesn’t excuse her gross negligence.

All of this is true.  

There were so many things wrong with that first trial, her negligence was just a small part. 

I feel like even the most competent lawyer would have struggled to convict, especially after what came out about failing to show the expert witness the piece about incoming calls.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Sarahsmile416

[teddysmom]

Spoiler

I'm listening to the "Undisclosed" podcast, Rabia & Susan (the attorney with the cell phone records)  are discussing the docuseries, and Susan is reading a list of attempted and actual rapes that occurred around the area where Hae was last seen, the parking lot of the mall where the Best Buy is, streets nearby, near the school, etc, all within a year or so of Hae's disappearance.

Spoiler

Another of the theories is that this was just a random murder, and neither Jay nor Adnan had anything to do with it. 

1 hour ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

here were so many things wrong with that first trial, her negligence was just a small part. 

I feel like even the most competent lawyer would have struggled to convict, especially after what came out about failing to show the expert witness the piece about incoming calls.

The prosecutor threatening witnesses was especially fucked up. 

[blixie]

Quote

I feel like even the most competent lawyer would have struggled to convict, especially after what came out about failing to show the expert witness the piece about incoming calls.

Her progression of disease has never really been clear to me, but in the first trial, the jury was polled and was poised to acquit. I think she  had a lot of other self inflicted stressors in the second trial too that make it hard to not focus on her negligence. That questioning style alone (DID YOU NOT?) made me aggressively dislike her and I can't imagine the second jury didn't feel the same. 

[Sarahsmile416]

3 hours ago, teddysmom said:

  Hide contents

I'm listening to the "Undisclosed" podcast, Rabia & Susan (the attorney with the cell phone records)  are discussing the docuseries, and Susan is reading a list of attempted and actual rapes that occurred around the area where Hae was last seen, the parking lot of the mall where the Best Buy is, streets nearby, near the school, etc, all within a year or so of Hae's disappearance.

  Hide contents

Another of the theories is that this was just a random murder, and neither Jay nor Adnan had anything to do with it. 

The prosecutor threatening witnesses was especially fucked up. 

Oh yeah...how that didn’t get out until now is beyond me.  So much corruption.

[JoeyCrown]

I meant what motive would Jay have to murder Hae ?

[ghoulina]

22 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Because if I decide to murder someone, I'm going to do it in the Best Buy parking lot in broad daylight. Also, my #1 place to have sex in a car. 

I never realized how happening Best Buy was until I listened to Serial. 

9 hours ago, JoeyCrown said:

I meant what motive would Jay have to murder Hae ?

Who knows? Maybe he tried something with her and she didn't respond the way he'd like. Given what his ex revealed, he seemed to have a history of violence towards women. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by ghoulina

[questionfear]

56 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I never realized how happening Best Buy was until I listened to Serial.  

I spent 6 months working at Best Buy in college-apparently I missed out, the most exciting thing in our parking lot was when the manager got a brand new PT Cruiser. 

[SoCal Mema]

21 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I was actually somewhat annoyed today by the way they all so casually threw Adnan’s first lawyer under the bus.  Yes, she was clearly ineffective but seeing that she had died from complications from MS sort of makes her errors understandable if she was going through that at the time of the trial.

Jay’s old friend, Jen is also annoying me. I get that you want your space from the whole thing, but damn, your trouble is not that trial, it’s letting Jay drag you through everything...and in the meantime, a potentially innocent guy has been sitting in jail for 20 years.

She was actually disbarred due to her incompetence, and had been scamming money from her clients.  So there was much more to her than just the MS,.

[SoCal Mema]

11 hours ago, JoeyCrown said:

I meant what motive would Jay have to murder Hae ?

I don't believe there has ever been any inference that Jay killed Hae; only that he lied to save his own hide from his criminal activity.  After Serial, Undisclosed, and Rabia's book, it is pretty clear who the focus should have been on in this case...in fact, more than one person should have been thoroughly investigated.

[vibeology]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Mema said:

She was actually disbarred due to her incompetence, and had been scamming money from her clients.  So there was much more to her than just the MS,.

This. I have compassion for what she went through with the MS but she also she did many people wrong and I can't blame any client or their family from voicing their anger at her actions.

[Nancybeth]

I still can never get over the fact that Adnan has no idea, no memory, seemingly no recollection of what happened that day, that he thinks it was just an ordinary day. The police called him that night about Hae being missing! I know he was high, but wouldn't you stop and think, when DID I last see her? At that point it had only been a few hours and he should be able to remember that he asked her for a ride and she said no, or he didn't see her after school because he went to the library.  

I realize there were a few days in there where no one was at school and people weren't really sure if she was missing or had run away.  But once he had fixed in his mind when he last saw her, wouldn't he hold on to that memory?  

When I was in high school -- 25 years ago -- a classmate was killed at school during lunch.  I didn't witness it, I barely knew him but I have very crystallized memories from that day.  I couldn't tell you everything I said and did, but that event suddenly made a regular day very abnormal and it sticks out. We went to Taco Bell after we were dismissed. I can't tell you about any regular day I went to get fast food after school but I remember that one.

 It just seems like Adnan has no reference for the last day that he ever saw Hae, even though a lot of other people do. So I come back to he's lying or he has some sort of psychological block on those memories because of PTSD.

[Sarahsmile416]

1 hour ago, Nancybeth said:

I still can never get over the fact that Adnan has no idea, no memory, seemingly no recollection of what happened that day, that he thinks it was just an ordinary day. The police called him that night about Hae being missing! I know he was high, but wouldn't you stop and think, when DID I last see her? At that point it had only been a few hours and he should be able to remember that he asked her for a ride and she said no, or he didn't see her after school because he went to the library.  

I realize there were a few days in there where no one was at school and people weren't really sure if she was missing or had run away.  But once he had fixed in his mind when he last saw her, wouldn't he hold on to that memory?  

When I was in high school -- 25 years ago -- a classmate was killed at school during lunch.  I didn't witness it, I barely knew him but I have very crystallized memories from that day.  I couldn't tell you everything I said and did, but that event suddenly made a regular day very abnormal and it sticks out. We went to Taco Bell after we were dismissed. I can't tell you about any regular day I went to get fast food after school but I remember that one.

 It just seems like Adnan has no reference for the last day that he ever saw Hae, even though a lot of other people do. So I come back to he's lying or he has some sort of psychological block on those memories because of PTSD.

Well let’s be honest, minus Hae’s good friends, most of their memories for around that time are not particularly good...and some of them weren’t stoned out of their mind. 

Hell, even after a little less than a year, their memories were obviously flawed. Just look at the one girl in college who said that Adnan and Jay were with her at her apartment on the 13th until it turned out that she was in class on the 13th.  

Again, I keep wondering where Stephanie is in all of this.  I didn’t follow the serial podcast, did they talk about her at all?

[TattleTeeny]

But it's not uncommon at all for someone's memory to fail him or her in this regard. In fact, according to all kinds of experts in criminology, behavioral sciences, psychology, it's generally the opposite (and even eyewitness account of crimes that happened minutes before are very unreliable). Also, in the story you recount above, you use an example of what you remember after the thing that made the day memorable. For Adnan, anything prior to hearing the news may just be some mundane stuff that could be any old day. 

[Nancybeth]

Was Stephanie questioned by the police, or did she testify? I'm sure that the Serial folks and these documentary makers and others have probably tracked her down and its clear that she just has no interest in participating. 

I see what you all are saying about before/after an event. It's just the one thing I've never been able to reconcile about Adnan's story and I'm not sure I ever will.  But my opinion of his innocence or guilt shifts constantly.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Nancybeth

[BellyLaughter]

6 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

Well let’s be honest, minus Hae’s good friends, most of their memories for around that time are not particularly good...and some of them weren’t stoned out of their mind. 

Hell, even after a little less than a year, their memories were obviously flawed. Just look at the one girl in college who said that Adnan and Jay were with her at her apartment on the 13th until it turned out that she was in class on the 13th.  

Again, I keep wondering where Stephanie is in all of this.  I didn’t follow the serial podcast, did they talk about her at all?

Stephanie has refused to participate in anything to do with the case.  I'm not even sure she was questioned by the police.  As for Serial, Undisclosed and the HBO doc she turned them all down.

[TattleTeeny]

Was Stephanie a close friend of Hae or just of Adnan? I feel like she was the latter, but I can't recall. 

[blixie]

Quote

I barely knew him but I have very crystallized memories from that day.  

Were you high all day? 

 

Quote

and even eyewitness account of crimes that happened minutes before are very unreliable).

Word. My memory heh is that it's eyewitness testimony is unreliable 80% of the time.  Eye witness testimony is mostly garbage, but it's often a huge decider in cases to this very day because no one wants to believe the nature of memory is that shitty. Debbie: I have a photographic memory Also Debbie: I have blocked out everything to do with me flirting with Hae's boyfriend at college after she died. 

Stephanie was in the program and as they've said they were all reasonably friendly, but she was primarily friends with Adnan and they had dated in eighth grade. She was also close to Laura and Jenn and Kathy through Jay.  She, Adnan, and Laura are the ones who straddled the smart kid social cricle and the lets get high all day social circle, but it seems like a lot of the kids smoked some of the time. 

[Milburn Stone]

One of the most persuasive moments of the final episode in making the case for Syed's innocence was the revelation that the prosecution could have ordered DNA tests and didn't. Why wouldn't you want evidence that put the nail in Syed's coffin, if you were the prosecutor? What reason would you have for not ordering DNA testing other than your fear that it would blow your case apart?

[Shorty186]

I can't believe this series premiered 2 days after the appeals verdict came out and I wasn't spoiled. The next time I feel sorry for myself, I'm going to think about this case and how much better I have it.

[Sarahsmile416]

The thing that really got hammered home to me was the idea that the prosecution basically decided who did it and just tried to bend their case to fit their theories, so of course, we can’t risk doing DNA testing because it might result in finding out that the person we think did it, didn’t do it.  In addition, we have to hide all evidence there is that casts doubt on our theories, like the cell towers. 

This last episode in its examination of Hai’s final hours was very powerful in bringing to light how sad it all was.  Hearing them talk about how she might have died was particularly sad.  

On a personal note, seeing the investigators at the University of Delaware made me absurdly excited because that was where I grew up.  I graduated in 99’ so was a similar age to Adnan and Hai, so that too has made it all the more personal.  

[ghoulina]

I literally graduated HS a year ahead of most of these kids. I'm the same age as they all are now. I think that might be a large part in why I initially connected so quickly to this case. It was so relatable, in so many ways. 

This last episode was the best yet. I was so floored that there was THAT much evidence that was never tested. What a fucking shame. I just continue to hate our justice system. 

I think I may have come around to considering that Jay wasn't involved either. I think it may very well be possible that the cops just got him to "confess" because they wanted to pin this on Adnan and knew they could bribe Jay because of his other criminal activity. 

I do remember thinking that the guy who found Hae's body seemed a little shady. It just seemed awfully far to wander into the woods for a piss. 

Will we ever know who did it? Will Adnan ever get out? Will his mother live to see it? Will Hae's family ever find peace? So many unknowns. 

[Milburn Stone]

6 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I think I may have come around to considering that Jay wasn't involved either. I think it may very well be possible that the cops just got him to "confess" because they wanted to pin this on Adnan and knew they could bribe Jay because of his other criminal activity.

The show made me wonder how big a part anti-Muslim bias played in the cops' decision to focus on Adnan. I don't think it was necessarily overt or conscious, like "let's get the Muslim kid." I do think it's possible that racism (some of it unconscious) disposed them to think of him as "shady," capable of violence, etc., in a way they wouldn't have otherwise.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[ghoulina]

7 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

The show made me wonder how big a part anti-Muslim bias played in the cops' decision to focus on Adnan. I don't think it was necessarily overt or conscious, like "let's get the Muslim kid." I do think it's possible that racism (some of it unconscious) disposed them to think of him as "shady," capable of violence, etc., in a way they wouldn't have otherwise.

It's quite possible. I also think it was easy to pin it on her ex. I mean, 9/10 when someone is killed it's most often done by a person close to them. They're not wrong to instantly suspect the husband, boyfriend, ex, etc. However....there was virtually NO evidence connecting him to Hae, her car, or the crime itself. There was only the word of a known fuck-up. I would never have convicted, had I been on that jury. 

[blixie]

Quote

I think I may have come around to considering that Jay wasn't involved either. I think it may very well be possible that the cops just got him to "confess" because they wanted to pin this on Adnan and knew they could bribe Jay because of his other criminal activity. 

I still can't right this in my mind, but Susan Simpson mentioned that they had told EVERYONE that the they had DNA and it's possible they told Jay they had Adnan's so that helped him feel it was okay for him to frame a guilty person. But LORDT this guy and his epic levels of bullshit, he comes back again with a "new" story I saw her body at my house, I didn't bury her with him, Adnan wanted and could pay for 10 POUNDS of WEED? Sure. Was he just fronting him product to sell based on their very tight friendship? The dude is so full of bullshit.

I was glad that the turf guy pointed out even if his tests were inconclusive about the grass might or might not getting brown,, all that grass on the tires couldn't have been there for more than a week. 

It's really brutal that at this point, with the kind of case Adnan has he might never get a new trial. On In the Dark, involving the Curtis Flowers case, it wsa  brought up that Flowers case was only even a potential Supreme Court case because he's on death row and bad convictions cases where the person only gets life almost NEVER get reviewed. 

I

Edited April 1, 2019 by blixie

[Sarahsmile416]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

The show made me wonder how big a part anti-Muslim bias played in the cops' decision to focus on Adnan. I don't think it was necessarily overt or conscious, like "let's get the Muslim kid." I do think it's possible that racism (some of it unconscious) disposed them to think of him as "shady," capable of violence, etc., in a way they wouldn't have otherwise.

I agree - just look at what the lawyer was saying during the bail hearing.  It was disgusting the way she was trying to drum up anti Muslim fear to get them to deny Adnan bail 

[spaceghostess]

Sigh. As one of the only people on the planet, apparently, who hasn't listened to Serial (which is weird because I'm a This American Life addict) I kind of wish I'd spoiled myself about the details of the case before watching so I'd have been more prepared for the crushing outcome. Not that I was really surprised, cynic that I am, but still.

I thought the series was pretty solid, but have to admit I was uncomfortable with watching Adnan's mom tell Radia about her leukemia. That came off as manipulative by the filmmakers and I felt guilty for being a fly on the wall in that moment. Sure, she knew the cameras were there and filmmakers most likely got her approval for using that footage, but I don't know, it just felt wrong. Let the poor woman deal with her illness privately. I like Radia, but nevertheless didn't need to see her nagging Mom to tell Adnan about it.

In other news (and apologies for the tone shift), Radia's baby is the cutest thing ever. OMG, his little face!!

[Sarahsmile416]

21 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Sigh. As one of the only people on the planet, apparently, who hasn't listened to Serial (which is weird because I'm a This American Life addict) I kind of wish I'd spoiled myself about the details of the case before watching so I'd have been more prepared for the crushing outcome. Not that I was really surprised, cynic that I am, but still.

I thought the series was pretty solid, but have to admit I was uncomfortable with watching Adnan's mom tell Radia about her leukemia. That came off as manipulative by the filmmakers and I felt guilty for being a fly on the wall in that moment. Sure, she knew the cameras were there and filmmakers most likely got her approval for using that footage, but I don't know, it just felt wrong. Let the poor woman deal with her illness privately. I like Radia, but nevertheless didn't need to see her nagging Mom to tell Adnan about it.

In other news (and apologies for the tone shift), Radia's baby is the cutest thing ever. OMG, his little face!!

Well in Radia’s defense, she asked for the cameras to be turned off. Though i do think that’s something that should have been done automatically.  

[spaceghostess]

20 minutes ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

Well in Radia’s defense, she asked for the cameras to be turned off. Though i do think that’s something that should have been done automatically.  

True, I'd forgotten that. Did Adnan's mom indicate that they should keep rolling? If she didn't want it, either, then that's a really insensitive call by the filmmakers.

[ChicksDigScars]

Yeah, I believe that she said, or gestured that it was all right and not to turn off the cameras. 

After watching the Netflix docu-series, The Keepers, and now THIS, law enforcement in Baltimore certainly has a very long and storied history of police corruption, don't they?

[lucindabelle]

I keep falling asleep during this show. I've tried twice to stay awake for the final episode. I think it's partly the Cinema Verite style, the lack of a narrator, the white-on-black captions from time to time.

Does the episode acknowledge the setback that just happened?

[Nancybeth]

I thought it was strange that the first episode, with the animations and all of Hae's diary excerpts, felt so different than the rest of the series. It almost could have been two entirely different productions -- one about Hae and Adnan and their relationship and her murder, and then an entirely different one about Adnan's conviction and his family and his fight for justice and Rabia.  Every time they mentioned Hae after the first ep kind of felt like a throw-away.