S01.E09: Home

[catrox14]

Oh man. This episode.  I just want to slap Sam, Missouri, Mary and John. Repeatedly.

I do wonder if this episode is where someone in the show finally realized that Sam is not the only child that was damaged by Mary's death. They hinted at it in 1.03 with Dean saying "Seeing your parents die isn't something you just get over" but then they kind of dropped that ball so they could get back to MoTW and Sam's obsession with finding John and vengeance.

This episode highlighted to me what I've seen in the first several episodes that Sam's empathy really only extends to strangers and not to his own family. IMO, if Jessica didn't die that night, Sam would not be interested in finding John or hunting with Dean. Sam is very much motivated by vengeance more than anything IMO. I think he pays lip service to 'really wishing Dad was there' .

In Bugs, Sam's POV was that John never wanted  Sam to succeed at Stanford but I think it was never about education. Dean said that it was because John was scared that Sam would not be protected at school. IMO no matter WHAT Sam would have gone off to do, John would have been upset about the baby of the family leaving the fold. To be honest, I forgot this conversation ever happened in Bugs and that's really unfortunate that such an important conversation took place in one of the WORST episodes of the entire series. And IMO this was first hint that Dean was  pretty well stuck between John and Sam.

Anyhoo, in 11.03, Dean said to Sam " No wonder that kid was so freaked out. Watching one of your parents die isn't something you just get over."  I mistakenly thought that was about Sam but no that was always about Dean. So clearly this is something Dean is still dealing with yet Sam was so obsessed with going back to their house that he manipulated Dean's sense of heroism to get him to go with him based on visions that Dean NEVER knew about until this moment. 

So going into this trip back home, Sam knew Dean was dreading this and he would be upset yet he sat there SMILING and smirking every time Missouri mistreated Dean. . To me Sam took JOY in Dean's humiliation. So much for Sam's empathy. So if the main character, Sam, is smiling about his brother being upbraided for things he hadn't actually done yet, (I don't care if the psychic saw it, not everything Missouri sensed was valid) I'm not going to much like Sam

Dean looked shaken at Missouri's treatment. He clearly doesn't see why she's being cruel to him and I don't think Jensen played much comedy in that moment reflecting that Missouri was right and that she caught out Dean here. He was confused and IMO I wish he would have reacted in his own defense, but IMO he was kind of afraid of Missouri and wanted to be respectful of her, not because she was right.

Dean is desperate because something is in their house and he can barely stand this, so he calls John BEGGING John to help him. He's terrified and confused.  Finally, he sees his mother again emerging from flames(YIKES). She smiles at him and says "Dean".  That's it. I thought okay she just can't say very much because hello 'ghost!" but then she goes past Dean to Sam and says "Sam....I'm sorry".   Then yells at the poltergeist to get out of her house. Welp so much for her not being able to say words!

And then Dean stands there and watches Mary die for a 2nd time. But not ONE fucking person not Missouri, and not Sam ask Dean...how he's doing. Sure he could put on a smile but COME ON! Empathetic!Sam and Psychic!Missouri who just knew Dean was going to do childish and rude things couldn't be bothered to ask how Dean was doing? Fuck her.

And then just when I think it can't get worse for Dean, that m'fer John Winchester is sitting in Missouri's living room and Missouri knew John was there and she's bitching about John mistreating his boys by not talking to them when she COULD HAVE TOLD THEM HERSELF and after she JUST got done mistreating Dean! Hypocrite, thy name is Missouri.

The only thing I got out of this episode is that Dean's emotional welfare doesn't seem to matter to anyone else. YMMV and all that.

[AwesomO4000]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I do wonder if this episode is where someone in the show finally realized that Sam is not the only child that was damaged by Mary's death.

[snip]

Anyhoo, in 11.03, Dean said to Sam " No wonder that kid was so freaked out. Watching one of your parents die isn't something you just get over."  I mistakenly thought that was about Sam but no that was always about Dean.

I didn't get that impression. I always thought that the "Watching your parents die..." was about Dean. The way that entire episode went with Dean relating to and bonding with the young son, I never got the impression that it was about Sam. It was shown from "Pilot" as well that the main effect of seeing Mary's death was on Dean. Mary's main effect on Sam wasn't seeing her death - which Sam was too young to remember - but something else entirely which was hinted at by what happens here:

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Finally, he sees his mother again emerging from flames(YIKES). She smiles at him and says "Dean".  That's it. I thought okay she just can't say very much because hello 'ghost!" but then she goes past Dean to Sam and says "Sam....I'm sorry".   Then yells at the poltergeist to get out of her house. Welp so much for her not being able to say words!

Ghosts on this show are often one-track minded. They often have unfinished business that takes precedence.  This episode sets that up, even though we don't find out what that "unfinished business" is until much later. So later on it's shown that this isn't about Mary's death really, it's about

Spoiler

her unfinished business: the deal.

And that's what the apology is about. And that's what unfinished business she could do.

Spoiler

This time she could save Sam.

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So clearly this is something Dean is still dealing with yet Sam was so obsessed with going back to their house that he manipulated Dean's sense of heroism to get him to go with him based on visions that Dean NEVER knew about until this moment. 

So are you saying that Sam shouldn't have insisted on going back to the house to save the mother and her kid? Or that he should've gone alone somehow? Sam had no way of knowing that Mary was involved, only that it was their old house where people were potentially in danger. Sam had very painful proof that his visions came true, so in his mind time was of the essence. For Sam, if he didn't get there as quickly as possible, it could be history repeating itself and someone dying. Yes, Dean was having painful emotional issues, but he wasn't the only one, in my opinion, and there were potential civilians involved. I think Dean would be the first to say that the civilians come first.

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This episode highlighted to me what I've seen in the first several episodes that Sam's empathy really only extends to strangers and not to his own family. IMO, if Jessica didn't die that night, Sam would not be interested in finding John or hunting with Dean. Sam is very much motivated by vengeance more than anything IMO. I think he pays lip service to 'really wishing Dad was there' .

I disagree with Sam's empathy only extending to strangers. I do agree that if Jessica hadn't died, he would not have gone back to hunting with Dean... why would he? As Sam told Dean, he wanted to be safe. He didn't want to be "different." He didn't want to think that he was "wrong," and he loved Jessica and had the chance to go to law school, so why if she hadn't died would Sam leave all of that to go back to the danger and uncertainty right then? At that point, I think Sam still saw both John and Dean as somewhat invincible in that they always would come through. He thought that Dean would find John and that they would be fine together.

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In Bugs, Sam's POV was that John never wanted  Sam to succeed at Stanford but I think it was never about education. Dean said that it was because John was scared that Sam would not be protected at school. IMO no matter WHAT Sam would have gone off to do, John would have been upset about the baby of the family leaving the fold.

Partially, maybe. I generally thought that part of John's "concern" was that he knew something about Sam's future, but being the control freak that he was, he didn't want to actually tell Sam anything, so since he couldn't control the entire situtaion, he generally wrote Sam off - "if you leave, don't bother coming back!" - and so then kept an eye on Sam on the sly... still not actually warning Sam about any potential danger.  In my opinion, if John had been really concerned, he would've told Sam the truth about what he knew and about why he didn't want Sam to go. It might not have stopped Sam from leaving - because why would he stay? - but it might've made a huge difference in keeping the lines of communication open.

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So going into this trip back home, Sam knew Dean was dreading this and he would be upset yet he sat there SMILING and smirking every time Missouri mistreated Dean. . To me Sam took JOY in Dean's humiliation. So much for Sam's empathy. So if the main character, Sam, is smiling about his brother being upbraided for things he hadn't actually done yet, (I don't care if the psychic saw it, not everything Missouri sensed was valid) I'm not going to much like Sam

I took part of Sam's laughing as his being uncomfortable, but even if it wasn't... Sam is a little brother. When older brother gets in trouble, there's going to be some amusement in general. It happened with my little sister, but I never held it against her... that's what younger siblings do. Besides, Dean had his own amusement at Sam's expense plenty of times before this - starting with Jessica - and would in the future... like the way Dean would come up with cover stories that would somehow make Sam look silly or embarrass him and get obvious amusement out of it:

Spoiler

the "bikini inspector" incident, the doll collecting incident in "Playthings," the wreath incident in "A Very Supernatural Christmas," for examples off the top of my head.

And Sam would generally accept it with a half-hearted complaint and let Dean have his fun. That's what siblings do all of the time. As for Dean's dread, I truthfully don't think Sam knew exactly how much Dean was dreading it. He still looked at Dean as a "no chick flick moment," emotionally strong person, so no, I don't think Sam really realized Dean's trauma here. Just as Dean couldn't really understand Sam's loss of Jessica or Sam's emotional conflict concerning another vision that might result in someone dead that he would feel responsible for not stopping if he didn't do something.

In my opinion that doesn't make either of them bad people. It makes them normal siblings. Your miles may vary.

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And then Dean stands there and watches Mary die for a 2nd time. But not ONE fucking person not Missouri, and not Sam ask Dean...how he's doing. Sure he could put on a smile but COME ON!

We skipped the rest of the night there.  Sam and Dean could've talked a little then. It probably would've gone something like this: Sam: Dean, you okay? Dean (scoffing): I'm fine. Sam: You sure you don't want to talk about this? Dean: No, I'm good. Really, Sam. Go to sleep/Drink your beer/etc.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't get that impression. I always thought that the "Watching your parents die..." was about Dean. The way that entire episode went with Dean relating to and bonding with the young son, I never got the impression that it was about Sam.

? That's why I said I was mistaken. The parallel was with Dean and Lucas but I was mistaken in that I thought the show was pushing forward that it was a parallel to Sam. 

My point is that this episode finally made it clear that  Dean had issues still from that night and no one in Dean's life seemed to care.

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

? That's why I said I was mistaken. The parallel was with Dean and Lucas but I was mistaken in that I thought the show was pushing forward that it was a parallel to Sam. 

My point is that this episode finally made it clear that  Dean had issues still from that night and no one in Dean's life seemed to care.

I understand.

I was saying that for me, I thought that that aspect - the direct effects of Mary's death - was shown to be about Dean from the beginning, including that he still had issues about it. The scene on the bridge in the pilot for example where Dean pushed Sam for mentioning Mary dying. My first thought on seeing that scene was "wow, someone has issues." And I then thought that "Dead in the Water" clarified what some of those issues were.

I was also saying that I disagree that no one in Dean's life seemed to care. I said that I think in general they don't entirely understand, but, in my opinion, Sam does try. For example, in the Pilot, Sam very purposely apologizes for upsetting Dean with what he said on the bridge, including both Mary and John by name, thereby directly addressing the issue and Dean's feelings. This is what earns Sam the "no chick flick moments" thing from Dean. In other words, it wasn't just a general "I'm sorry," in my opinion. Sam thought about it, and about Dean's feelings about the conversation and what happened, and after thinking about it, decided that Dean deserved and needed an apology, and then manned up to give Dean that apology. This, to me, shows that Sam does give some thought to Dean's feelings. It's just that with the "No chick flick moments" thing, maybe Sam got the impression that Dean wasn't comfortable with or maybe didn't always want or need the apology. That they were "good" even without having to verbalize it.

That doesn't prevent Sam from sometimes trying though. Sam's next big, thinking about Dean's feelings apology comes in

Spoiler

"Something Wicked." That time, Sam gets an "Oh God, kill me now." response from Dean.

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I took part of Sam's laughing as his being uncomfortable, but even if it wasn't... Sam is a little brother. When older brother gets in trouble, there's going to be some amusement in general. It happened with my little sister, but I never held it against her... that's what younger siblings do. Besides, Dean had his own amusement at Sam's expense plenty of times before this - starting with Jessica - and would in the future... like the way Dean would come up with cover stories that would somehow make Sam look silly or embarrass him and get obvious amusement out of it:

Like I said before, I'm trying to look at this with fresh eyes and not apply what I already know to this narrative. And since I rarely watch s1 save a handful of episodes, I feel like this is fresh eyes for me.

Sam being an ass about Dean being scolded by someone they don't know under different circumstances is one thing. But this circumstance?  Not acceptable. And yes it does put Sam in a bad light with me. Sam is 23 years old.  He's old enough to not act like a 12 year old especially when Dean has said that he swore he'd never go back to that house again? Sam regressing at that point if that's what it was is IMO worse than if he just lacks the empathy needed here. And if the show was going for "haha Dean's being treated like a child" they picked the damn wrong time to do it. 

I don't recall a time that Dean made light of Sam's grief over Jessica during these early episodes. He was concerned that Sam was not handling it well. He erred on the side of trying to buck up Sam and advising Sam to just let it go or it will kill him.

55 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

We skipped the rest of the night there.  Sam and Dean could've talked a little then. It probably would've gone something like this: Sam: Dean, you okay? Dean (scoffing): I'm fine. Sam: You sure you don't want to talk about this? Dean: No, I'm good. Really, Sam. Go to sleep/Drink your beer/etc

I don't agree with this presumption. Dean was showing quite a bit of emotion in this episode with Sam. Sure he might struggle to talk about it, but my point is that we did not see on screen anyone ask how Dean was affected by going back home. If Sam can't see on Dean's face how upset he was at that the thought of returning home, then IMO Sam really does lack empathy for Dean.  In my opinion, as of this episode, Sam might not emotionally be capable of relating to Dean's own issues because he is consumed by his own issues.

Why is there a presumption of Dean drinking? Dean has not been shown to actually drink much at all in these early episodes. I don't recall him being shown drunk once in these episodes.  We see Dean in a bar  hustling pool but not drunk.  Dean doesn't even talk about drinking as a coping mechanism when he tells Sam that he has to let things go.  So I'm honestly asking where does that impression come from based on these first 9 episodes of the show? 

55 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 As for Dean's dread, I truthfully don't think Sam knew exactly how much Dean was dreading it. He still looked at Dean as a "no chick flick moment," emotionally strong person, so no, I don't think Sam really realized Dean's trauma here. Just as Dean couldn't really understand Sam's loss of Jessica or Sam's emotional conflict concerning another vision that might result in someone d

Edited June 7, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

was saying that for me, I thought that that aspect - the direct effects of Mary's death - was shown to be about Dean from the beginning, including that he still had issues about it. The scene on the bridge in the pilot for example where Dean pushed Sam for mentioning Mary dying. My first thought on seeing that scene was "wow, someone has issues." And I then thought that "Dead in the Water" clarified what some of those issues were.

I'm glad you mentioned the pilot here. I thought Dean was angry with Sam for what he perceived as disrespect for Mary's memory and Sam seemed okay with accepting that Mary was dead. So even including Dead in the Water they didn't really get back to Dean's issues until Home and even then the episode was really about Sam and Mary seeing each other again, and that's fine. Even if Dean doesn't want to talk about, the show could have had someone ask and Dean say he's fine and we all would probably figure out he wasn't really telling all that he felt.  So yeah it bothers me.

I mean like if I call my friend to see how she is doing and she says she's fine but I suspect that's not the case, at least she knows that I care because I did ask.

Another thing this rewatch is reminding me that Dean has bravado in s1 but he's actually fairly open with his emotions. 

[DittyDotDot]

Not to be picky, but Sam did ask Dean if he was okay when they first pulled up to the house and Dean said, "Let me get back to you on that." So, I don't think Sam didn't care about what Dean was going through, but Dean kept shrugging it off, so Sam probably assumed he was dealing with it.

IMO, neither Sam or Dean has still fully adjusted to having grown up versions of each other to deal with. For instance, Dean goes around the corner to make that phone call to shield Sam from something unpleasant (and shield himself too) as he's probably done a million times when they were teenagers. And, it doesn't occur to Sam to continually ask how Dean's doing because Dean has always been his big strong brother who has handled things. In many ways, they're unintentionally falling back into that parent/child dynamic they once had, but trying to also have a grown-up brother relationship. The two don't always play nice together.

Anyway, I've been tempted to go back and watch with you guys, but not this episode. I just really don't care for it much. ;)

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not to be picky, but Sam did ask Dean if he was okay when they first pulled up to the house and Dean said, "Let me get back to you on that." So, I don't think Sam didn't care about what Dean was going through, but Dean kept shrugging it off, so Sam probably assumed he was dealing with it.

That was before Dean and Sam knew it was Mary in the house. That was before Dean watched his mother burn up again. That warranted at least a cursory check in. 

[AwesomO4000]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't recall a time that Dean made light of Sam's grief over Jessica during these early episodes. He was concerned that Sam was not handling it well. He erred on the side of trying to buck up Sam and advising Sam to just let it go or it will kill him.

Dean didn't that I recall. I was referring to when Dean was hitting on Jessica in the pilot and finding it amusing even though Sam was obviously uncomfortable about it.

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I don't agree with this presumption. Dean was showing quite a bit of emotion in this episode with Sam. Sure he might struggle to talk about it, but my point is that we did not see on screen anyone ask how Dean was affected by going back home. If Sam can't see on Dean's face how upset he was at that the thought of returning home, then IMO Sam really does lack empathy for Dean.  In my opinion, as of this episode, Sam might not emotionally be capable of relating to Dean's own issues because he is consumed by his own issues.

Well, yeah I agree, including a rather large issue. We learned in "Bloody Mary" that Sam feels responsible for Jessica's death, because he had a premonition that she was going to die but he dismissed it as just a nightmare and/or he didn't want to face that he might be having premonitions. Now he has another premonition, showing him that someone else might die. I would say that that might bring up some rather painful emotional issues that Sam might be somewhat consumed or obsessed with and are still fresh wounds.

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Why is there a presumption of Dean drinking? Dean has not been shown to actually drink much at all in these early episodes. I don't recall him being shown drunk once in these episodes.  We see Dean in a bar  hustling pool but not drunk.  Dean doesn't even talk about drinking as a coping mechanism when he tells Sam that he has to let things go.  So I'm honestly asking where does that impression come from based on these first 9 episodes of the show?

There wasn't. In my imagined conversation, Dean was telling Sam to "go to sleep, drink his beer*, etc" shutting down the touchy-feely part of the conversation.

But you are right, the after the hunt beer mostly happened later on in the series... so replace the "beer" with "burger" (or likely salad or something since it's Sam's dinner) and that was the meaning there.

* As in an after the hunt celebratory beer. It was an example of moving the topic away from the emotional stuff, not specifically referring to drinking.

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm glad you mentioned the pilot here. I thought Dean was angry with Sam for what he perceived as disrespect for Mary's memory and Sam seemed okay with accepting that Mary was dead.  

So Dean was angry with Sam, because he didn't understand or think it was okay to just be accepting of Mary's death... so in other words, Mary's death was an issue for Dean. But what Dean says to Lucas in "Dead in the Water" cemented what it was for me, because that's when we learn that Dean actually remembers that night and that he saw what happened to Mary. He tells Lucas that he (Dean) was scared by it, too, and didn't feel like talking, but that his mom would want him to be brave, and he thinks about that every day... so yes, issues, and Dean spelled them out pretty clearly for me even then.

I agree with you that this episode addressed some of those issues in more detail, but I thought it was established fairly well by "Dead in the Water" that seeing Mary's death was traumatic for Dean.

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So even including Dead in the Water they didn't really get back to Dean's issues until Home and even then the episode was really about Sam and Mary seeing each other again, and that's fine.

This one is harder to separate from what I know now, but I think even back then I was wondering what the "I'm sorry" meant, because even Sam seemed confused by it. For me this was about more than just Sam seeing Mary. This was setting up the mystery that we learned some about in the season 2 finale, and then in season 4. Weirdly though:

Spoiler

even though we, the viewers, found out what the "I'm sorry" meant, onscreen Sam never did. So in a way, this could also sort of be about Dean, because Dean is the only one who really learns the truth here that Mary isn't just a blameless victim in this. She also had a part to play. It's also interesting to me that Sam doesn't find this out, because then the idea that it is Sam's fault for being born that Mary died is revisited again in future episodes (like "Changing Channels" and via implication in "Soul Survivor"), so I sort of wonder in a way if Dean still doesn't quite accept what Mary did and maybe it's one of the things we'll see addressed in next season's premier.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was before Dean and Sam knew it was Mary in the house. That was before Dean watched his mother burn up again. That warranted at least a cursory check in. 

But all Sam got a chance to do was exchange a look with Dean and say "Now it's over" before the scene went to fade out/black, and it was suddenly the next morning. So we didn't see what happened after that. Sam and Dean could have talked about it then, but we wouldn't know... We hadn't gotten into the BM or the "sit on the Impala and talk about their feelings" scenes* yet.

* From the "French Mistake."

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was before Dean and Sam knew it was Mary in the house. That was before Dean watched his mother burn up again. That warranted at least a cursory check in. 

How do we know Sam didn't ask Dean if he was okay? We go from Mary burning up to the next morning with Missouri and then they leave. Plus, it's not like we saw Dean ask Sam if he was okay in the wake of seeing his mother burn up after meeting her for the first time...on the heels of watching Jessica get torched on the ceiling. Should I then assume Dean just didn't care enough to ask?

I'd say both Sam and Dean were experiencing their own personal traumas throughout this episode and neither was paying attention nor in the right head space to really offer help to the other. But, IMO, that doesn't mean they didn't care what the other was going through. But, I'm weird that way.

Edited June 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But all Sam got a chance to do was exchange a look with Dean and say "Now it's over" before the scene went to fade out/black, and it was suddenly the next morning. So we didn't see what happened after that. Sam and Dean could have talked about it then, but we wouldn't know... We hadn't gotten into the BM or the "sit on the Impala and talk about their feelings" scenes* yet.

I'm not limiting this to Sam. Missouri who seemed to be so compassionate towards Sam didn't ask after Dean either. 

If Sam had been operating as DDD suggests in that Sam thinks Dean is just handling things, I'm not going to presume that Sam did check in.

That doesn't mean Sam is an asshole or selfish, but it does leave me with  sense that the show isn't particularly concerned with Dean's state of mind in this episode.

Edited June 7, 2016 by catrox14

[auntvi]

So Sam never does find out why Mary was sorry?  I'm wracking my tired brain and I can't remember it ever being clear.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

So Sam never does find out why Mary was sorry?  I'm wracking my tired brain and I can't remember it ever being clear.

Yes, in S4.

Spoiler

Mary made the deal with Yellow Eyes that eventually led to Sam being infected with demon blood as an infant. She didn't know that's what Yellow Eyes would want, but basically Mary is sorry for damning Sam. And, I think also sorry for them eventually being raised as hunters. Which she did not want.

[MysteryGuest]

I did have issues with Missouri in this episode, as I thought she was pretty hard on Dean.  And considering he'd never met the woman, he was more than a bit confused by it.  I think they were trying to go for humor in an otherwise serious episode, but it didn't really work for me.

I agree that both brothers were probably freaking out internally over their own personal issues, so I will cut them both some slack for how sensitive they were or weren't toward one another.  But John was just a dick in this episode.  If I have one major complaint about season 1, it's the cat and mouse shit with their father.  I saw no purpose for it when I watched it the first time around, and I still don't.  It was annoying.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, in S4.

  Reveal hidden contents

Mary made the deal with Yellow Eyes that eventually led to Sam being infected with demon blood as an infant. She didn't know that's what Yellow Eyes would want, but basically Mary is sorry for damning Sam. And, I think also sorry for them eventually being raised as hunters. Which she did not want.

Not definitively...

Spoiler

Sam finds out that he was fed demon blood and that Mary seemed to know Azazel somehow in the first part of the season 2 finale, but it is Dean who finds out about the deal in "In the Beginning." And all we know for sure that Dean tells Sam about the past (in "Metamorphosis") is that Mary was a hunter, and that their grandparents were murdered. But there were details Dean left out, like he didn't tell Sam about the demon blood, because Sam revealed that he knew that on his own, and Dean was angry and defensive that Sam hadn't told him - which is kind of hypocritical, in my opinion, since he wasn't going to tell Sam either - but nonetheless Sam was all apologetic and Dean was defensive and the conversation devolved to "whatevers" before we found out if Dean told Sam about the deal. Considering that Dean was going to leave out the demon blood detail, my guess is that he didn't tell Sam about Mary's deal either, but we never know for sure.

Edited June 8, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I did have issues with Missouri in this episode, as I thought she was pretty hard on Dean.  And considering he'd never met the woman, he was more than a bit confused by it.  I think they were trying to go for humor in an otherwise serious episode, but it didn't really work for me.

I agree that both brothers were probably freaking out internally over their own personal issues, so I will cut them both some slack for how sensitive they were or weren't toward one another.  But John was just a dick in this episode.  If I have one major complaint about season 1, it's the cat and mouse shit with their father.  I saw no purpose for it when I watched it the first time around, and I still don't.  It was annoying.

Ditto.

I also think they were looking for the actress to play Missouri similar to her Boston Public character (Marla). I've only seen clips, but the performance seems similar.  And Kripke wrote this one.  He's a bit of a bro-dude.  I think most of the nuances came in the performances.  And honestly, I think that this is a sign of a show finding it's footing.  "Home" IMO is another key episode that takes the show away from Kripke's original vision about urban legends and turns it more into the story of brothers.  From that perspective, I don't think Kripke was trying to make either of the boys look bad, he just is tone deaf.  

Having said this, here's what I see:
- Sam - who is barely sleeping has another dream that he instantly recognizes as similar to the ones before Jessica died.  I don't think he's obsessed with revenge, I think he's drowning in guilt and is terrified it's going to happen again.  And I think it's the Winchester family ethos that you suck it up and save people and fear is not an option (which Dean would agree with at this stage in his life). I think he knows Dean doesn't want to go home but knows this is the right thing. I don't think he appreciates how traumatized Dean is - because they don't talk about that shit (EITHER of them). And I completely agree that he really sees Dean as Mr. Invincible. 
- Dean - damn but this is a sad episode for him.  He's letting his brother know he's freaked but still hiding some of his pain. EVERY TIME I hear him describe that night, I swear he's going to say "the smell" but stops himself.  I don't know why. I have nothing to back it up, but it's just the look on his face.  And he's so panicked to get Sam out of that house.  I swear, if people weren't living there, he'd burn it down and bulldoze the ashes.  
- Missouri - I think it was a swing and a miss in terms of going for the comedy and it really felt like bullying. I don't blame the actress because she really doesn't know what she's getting into. Had any of the episodes even aired before they filmed Home?  So.. I put this on Kripke being tone deaf.
- John - Yes, I'd like to punch John. If he listened to Dean's voice mail and did NOTHING?!? I want to kick his ass.  And it sure seems like that's what happened.  I know he THINKS he's doing the right thing but he's got a distorted world view here. And I'm not making excuses... just saying his sense of what matters is pretty whack.

[DittyDotDot]

But I think it's a reasonable conclusion...

ETA: Moving this to the All Seasons thread to avoid all the spoiler tags.

Edited June 8, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

John ignored their calls for help all the time, which really pissed me off.  And yes, if he could ignore Dean's plea in this episode, he really was a shit.  I know he had tunnel vision where the YED was concerned, but Dean was not one to cry on the phone to his father, so he should have dropped everything to be with them.  And the fact that he was there and did nothing just sucks.  The more I watch these early episodes, the more I dislike their father.  He made some horrible choices where his children were concerned, and they're still dealing with the aftermath today.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But I think it's a reasonable conclusion

  Reveal hidden contents

Dean did tell him because Sam says "It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?" Which suggests to me he knows Yellow Eyes was making the deals for access to these kids' houses and he already knew what Yellow Eyes did with that access. Plus, Sam doesn't seem to be in the dark about it at any point later in the series. I guess they've never specifically spoken about it, that I remember, but my sense always was that he knows what went down.

Taking this to the "All Episodes" thread, so as to cut down on the spoilers...

[DittyDotDot]

HA! Beat ya to it, @AwesomO4000! ;)

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I also think they were looking for the actress to play Missouri similar to her Boston Public character (Marla). I've only seen clips, but the performance seems similar.  And Kripke wrote this one.  He's a bit of a bro-dude.  I think most of the nuances came in the performances.  And honestly, I think that this is a sign of a show finding it's footing.  "Home" IMO is another key episode that takes the show away from Kripke's original vision about urban legends and turns it more into the story of brothers.  From that perspective, I don't think Kripke was trying to make either of the boys look bad, he just is tone deaf.  

Tone deaf sounds so horrible...granted I'm not too fond of a couple of Kripke's first-season episodes and, yeah, it's mostly due to them been tonally weird to me. Still though, I'm going with New Showitis.  ;)

But yeah, I think they thought they were doing something different than what they did do. Won't be the last time I have this feeling.

BTW, I forgot to ask, does anyone recognize the actress who plays Jenny here? I swear I've seen her someplace before, but just can't quite put my finger on it.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

BTW, I forgot to ask, does anyone recognize the actress who plays Jenny here? I swear I've seen her someplace before, but just can't quite put my finger on it.

She looks like Rachel McAdams to me. Like spitting image but her name is Kristin Richardson

[GirlyGeek]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

BTW, I forgot to ask, does anyone recognize the actress who plays Jenny here? I swear I've seen her someplace before, but just can't quite put my finger on it.

I remembered thinking that she was familiar too.  Turns out I was remembering her from a one episode part on LOST.
But, I agree, she does kinda look like Rachel McAdams

*edited to add, from her IMDB, I realized I also recall her from Angel

Edited June 8, 2016 by GirlyGeek

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, GirlyGeek said:

I remembered thinking that she was familiar too.  Turns out I was remembering her from a one episode part on LOST.
But, I agree, she does kinda look like Rachel McAdams

*edited to add, from her IMDB, I realized I also recall her from Angel

Oh, I never watched Angel, but I see she was in an episode of Criminal Minds...maybe that's it?

[catrox14]

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 In many ways, they're unintentionally falling back into that parent/child dynamic they once had, but trying to also have a grown-up brother relationship. The two don't always play nice together.

They do switch back and forth between the two freely especially early on. It must have confused people. But more than that, Sam, I think, fell into the habit of thinking that Dean, like a parent, didn't have his own wants, dreams, emotions. Sure he learned differently but it slips through every once in a while.

[catrox14]

I decided to watch this again.

What struck me upon a 2nd re-watch is related to Missouri.

I have a new theory as to why she was such an asshole to Dean.. I think she has some abilities but she might also have been a bit of a fraud too.

I think John was in town the whole time and Missouri knew.

That's the only way the final scene between Missouri and John makes sense to me. Missouri wasn't there when the boys realized it was Mary in the house. She learned about it the next day from Sam. She leaves and then we see her arrive at her house.The first thing John asks is 'Did Mary's spirit really save the boys"? How would John have known to ask about Mary's spirit if someone didn't tell him it was Mary's spirit in the house. If Missouri called John between leaving their old house and getting to her house wouldn't they have had that conversation on the phone?

If Missouri didn't tell John, how did he know? Was he in town and stalking the boys from a distance? Was he somehow inside the house when Mary materialized?

Why did Missouri say, I don't know how Sam didn't sense his own father's presence? 

I think Missouri knew the boys names because John told her and he told her about Jessica. Missouri saying Dean was a goofy looking kid makes no sense because we saw a picture of Dean as a four year old and he wasn't goofy looking. So that was just a way for her to make Dean and Sam believe she remembered them from all those years ago when IMO she didn't. 

IMO she wasn't that comfortable with lying to the boys about John so she overreacted to Dean's pointed questions. Dean questioned her psychic abilities if she didn't know where John was or if he was alive. IMO that pissed her off because if she is psychic he's insulter her and if she isn't then maybe she went into "derail and deflect" mode

Her comments about "Don't put your feet on the furniture " and "Don't cuss" IMO were a manipulation so she could keep Dean off balance so he wouldn't bug her about John.  IMO if Dean had not been in such a bad place emotionally with having to go back to Lawrence, I think he might have sussed out Missouri's game.

Quote

DEAN: Why didn’t you tell him?

MISSOURI: People don’t come here for the truth. They come for good news. [The boys stare at her.] Well? Sam and Dean, come on already, I ain’t got all day. [She leaves the room. DEAN and SAM exchange a confused look and follow her into the next room.] Well, lemme look at ya. [She laughs.] Oh, you boys grew up handsome. [She points a finger at DEAN.] And you were one goofy-lookin’ kid, too. [DEAN glares at her while SAM smirks.] Sam. [She grabs his hand.] Oh, honey…I’m sorry about your girlfriend. [The boys are shocked.] And your father –- he’s missin’?

SAM: How’d you know all that?

MISSOURI: Well, you were just thinkin’ it just now. [SAM raises his eyebrows, surprised.]

DEAN: Well, where is he? Is he okay?

MISSOURI: I don’t know.

DEAN: Don’t know? Well, you’re supposed to be a psychic, right?

MISSOURI: Boy, you see me sawin’ some bony tramp in half? You think I’m a magician? I may be able to read thoughts and sense energies in a room, but I can’t just pull facts out of thin air. Sit, please. [SAM smirks at DEAN and they sit down. MISSOURI snaps at DEAN.] Boy, you put your foot on my coffee table, I’m ‘a whack you with a spoon!

 

Quote

 

MISSOURI: That boy…he has such powerful abilities. But why he couldn’t sense his own father, I have no idea. [The camera pans over to her couch, where JOHN WINCHESTER is sitting.]

JOHN: Mary’s spirit –- do you really think she saved the boys?

MISSOURI: I do. [JOHN nods sadly and twists his wedding ring on his finger.] John Winchester, I could just slap you. Why won’t you go talk to your children?

JOHN: [tearfully] I want to. You have no idea how much I wanna see ‘em. But I can’t. Not yet. Not until I know the truth. [They share a look. The screen fades to black.

 

So for me, Missouri and John are the worst here. Missouri was complicit in John's lie . 

Edited June 8, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I think that is entirely possible. I think John was at Missouri's place when they showed. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think that is entirely possible. I think John was at Missouri's place when they showed. 

Yeah, he was definitely at Missouri's. That's why I'm asking how did he know about Mary's spirit when the time frame doesn't seem to support him finding out until after Missouri found out from Sam which was before she drove back to her own home.  But either way, John was in town long enough to know that the boys were there and miserable. And supports that John did get the message from Dean. John Winchester. you suck. Your son, who can barely ask for help as is, calls you crying and begging for your help. You don't call him back and yet you show up in the same town and don't contact them.

s11 parallels
 

Spoiler

 

Sure Chuck. You're totally not like John at all.

 

 

Fuck you, John Winchester.

[SueB]

perfect gif is perfect

[bethy]

What do people dislike so much about Home? I didn't realize people hated it. I really disliked the way Missouri treated Dean, but I liked getting to see the boys (and Dean in particular) deal with being back in the old house. 

(Although maybe I should just go back and read the thread.)

[DittyDotDot]

44 minutes ago, bethy said:

What do people dislike so much about Home? I didn't realize people hated it. I really disliked the way Missouri treated Dean, but I liked getting to see the boys (and Dean in particular) deal with being back in the old house. 

(Although maybe I should just go back and read the thread.)

Well, I don't hate it, but I don't think it's a particularly good episode, but it doesn't offend me or anything. I just never pine to watch it, though. I like the beginning of it, but the case itself is kinda maudlin, IMO.

ETA: It's just that I've never actually heard anyone praise this episode or say they even really like it, but it keeps ending up on "Best Of" lists for some reason.

Edited September 13, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I like Home solely for what it showed with Dean and how vulnerable he was and barely holding it together and how John is a son of a bitch. YMMV

[rue721]

On 9/13/2016 at 0:39 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I don't hate it, but I don't think it's a particularly good episode, but it doesn't offend me or anything. I just never pine to watch it, though. I like the beginning of it, but the case itself is kinda maudlin, IMO.

I agree it's maudlin.

Besides, in retrospect, Mary being a ghost who takes out herself and another "spirit" doesn't really make any sense. And this is disgusting, but isn't it kind of weird that she became a ghost at all after burning to death? I guess the salt is a really important part of the salt-and-burn?

Dean leaving that voicemail is just heartbreaking, though. Everything else in this episode is forgettable, but that voicemail really stuck with me!

On 6/7/2016 at 6:18 PM, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, neither Sam or Dean has still fully adjusted to having grown up versions of each other to deal with. For instance, Dean goes around the corner to make that phone call to shield Sam from something unpleasant (and shield himself too) as he's probably done a million times when they were teenagers. And, it doesn't occur to Sam to continually ask how Dean's doing because Dean has always been his big strong brother who has handled things. In many ways, they're unintentionally falling back into that parent/child dynamic they once had, but trying to also have a grown-up brother relationship. The two don't always play nice together.

That's an interesting thought about Dean going around the corner to make his call because he wants to shield Sam. I had just assumed that he was doing it because he was ashamed to get all upset and ask for help in front of him. Dean likes to put on a brave face around Sam in general. But maybe that's what you mean by shielding him?

Also, Sam seemed pretty surprised by how affected Dean was by even his first mention of their old house. Maybe Sam had forgotten or hadn't ever realized what a large shadow losing their mom and their old life still cast over Dean. I think that actually is pretty realistic, in that I think that after having been away from him for a long time, and especially after having been exposed to a lot of new people and new ways of life and just plain new ideas (at Stanford), it's pretty realistic for Sam to be seeing Dean with new eyes now.

On 6/7/2016 at 9:19 PM, SueB said:

John - Yes, I'd like to punch John. If he listened to Dean's voice mail and did NOTHING?!? I want to kick his ass.  And it sure seems like that's what happened.  I know he THINKS he's doing the right thing but he's got a distorted world view here. And I'm not making excuses... just saying his sense of what matters is pretty whack.

I guess he didn't technically do nothing, because he did at least show up in town (I assume because of the voicemail)? And I think that the idea of the reveal was that he'd been helping them all along, through Missouri. The rational was probably supposed to be that John couldn't help them directly because he couldn't risk getting them entangled in his Dangerous Mission(s) or whatever, but because he cared about being there for them so much, he still managed to find a way to help them by proxy. But it didn't really make sense on screen. I mean, it was hard to know how long he'd been there or if/how he'd actually provided any help.

Similarly, I think the idea of Missouri constantly scolding Dean was meant to be that she was reading his mind, and responding to the obnoxious thoughts that he was having. I think it was meant to be funny, like she kept catching him out on thinking and planning things he wasn't supposed to. But because Dean just seemed really sad and fragile, it didn't actually seem like he would be having the obnoxious thoughts that Missouri was supposedly responding to, so the whole thing was just weird.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Dean likes to put on a brave face around Sam in general. But maybe that's what you mean by shielding him?

More or less. You know how parents don't like to show their young kids they're scared and don't know what to do? It's not only because they don't want their kids to see them as less, but also because it reassures the kids everything is okay and keeps the kids from getting scared and worried. That's why I think Dean went around the corner, he didn't want Sam to know he was scared. Yes, some of that is Dean not wanting Sam to see him vulnerable, but I also think it's learned behavior from when they were young and Dean had to act the parent in John's absence. 

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Similarly, I think the idea of Missouri constantly scolding Dean was meant to be that she was reading his mind, and responding to the obnoxious thoughts that he was having. I think it was meant to be funny, like she kept catching him out on thinking and planning things he wasn't supposed to. But because Dean just seemed really sad and fragile, it didn't actually seem like he would be having the obnoxious thoughts that Missouri was supposedly responding to, so the whole thing was just weird.

I agree. And, it was just weird.

[auntvi]

Moved from "How the Magic Works".

Home is the episode I like the most so far.  It starts to really feel like Supernatural. For me, Home is the first episode that includes the basic elements of the Winchesters.

•    Sam’s “gifts” from Azazel show for the first time. Sam’s first premonition dream he talks about and acts upon (at least the first one he believes).    •    It’s the first strand of Dean’s “must take care of Sam” motif. Dean tells Sam for the first time that the night Mary died, John told him “Take your brother outside and don’t look back.”    

•    The first time we see John in the present and see how much he’s changed as he’s become obsessed with hunting the demon that killed Mary. He’s so deep into it that he tells Missouri that he can’t see Sam & Dean yet, “not until I know the truth.” And that’s after Dean’s call begging him for help.

Little things I liked:
Sam & Dean’s voices haven’t dropped to the deep, rough voices they use now
When Dean is fighting off the poltergeist and tips over the table for protection. The visual of knives sticking out of the table is striking.
I like when Mary saved Sam and said she was sorry and he says, “for what?” Written by Kripke, I hope it was intentional and a nod to what we learn much later.

UO: I love Missouri. She is the first person they depend on for info - the first expert, the first person who knows who/what Sam & Dean are. She’s strong, warm, knowledgeable. I know, she gave Dean a hard time, but I don’t think she meant it to hurt. Besides, Jensen’s reactions were great. Perhaps she sensed that Dean was the stronger personality and she had to put him back on his heels a bit to maintain her control. I wish she had been in more episodes.

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, auntvi said:

Sam & Dean’s voices haven’t dropped to the deep, rough voices they use now

I'm always so amused when I rewatch S1 by how Sam no longer looks like Jared and Dean no longer sounds like Jensen. Too cute! ;)

Moved the rest of my response to All Seasons...

Edited March 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[bettername2come]

List of things I like in rewatch:

1. "I have these nightmares. And sometimes they come true." I love the boys' first scene and how Dean is freaked out by Sam's visions and the prospect of returning home. And part of me does wish they investigated that guy who shot himself in the head three times.

2. I love the moment Sam learns Dean carried him out of the house. 

3. Dean's voicemail to John is beautiful. First Crying Dean moment, yes?

4. God, that psycho clapping monkey toy and the guy dumb enough to stick his hand down the garbage disposal twice. So creepy.

5. I like Missouri Mosely. I get that they couldn't get Loretta Devine again, but I wish she'd do some offscreen helping.

6. Jenny was a good damsel of the week. Good mom, nice to Sam and Dean, just trying to get her life in order.

7. Love that little hug/ not letting him fall Dean gives Sam after he saves him from being choked by the ghost.

8. "And don't cuss at me!"

9. "Take your brother outside as fast as you can and don't look back." I love a good parallel scene.

10. Mary saves the day! By being a protective mama!

11. First appearance of present day John Winchester and Jeffrey Dean Morgan nails that scene.

[Iju]

my and my sister's favorite part :)

https://kriscoko.tumblr.com/post/171422211788/okay-but-like-you-were-born-with-no-soul-if-you

 

and i'm actually surprised by the amount of dislike of this episode. i did think it was rather cold of john to not answer a crying, breaking dean but again if we look at it on his side he loves his sons, he's just trying to protect him. so by not answering that call, it must have really killed him. i felt really bad for dean though, he needed his father a lot - more than ever i believe - in this season. it's a pretty okay episode for me, not terrible.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Iju

[Iju]

On 01/03/2018 at 4:16 PM, Iju said:

 

(snip)

Edited March 13, 2018 by Iju

[The Companion]

I am assuming a lot of the opinions on this thread are colored by subsequent events. As a new watcher, this episode had a good amount of creepy old school haunted house horror to it. I could barely watch the sink scene. I admit that garbage disposals terrify me. The dramatic tension was amazing (though that was an awful lot of blood for him to have lost his hand only). The kid seemed a bit old for the playpen set up, but it was still harrowing to watch. I really liked this one.

[Katy M]

On 11/3/2019 at 1:24 AM, The Companion said:

I admit that garbage disposals terrify me.

Me, too.  I thought I was the only one. I won't stick my hands anywhere near the basin of a sink that has a garbage disposal.

[The Companion]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Me, too.  I thought I was the only one. I won't stick my hands anywhere near the basin of a sink that has a garbage disposal.

I feel like there must have been something I watched as a kid that did it to me, but only the phobia remains. Google eludes me. I cannot put my hand anywhere near one, though. 

[Katy M]

Just now, The Companion said:

I feel like there must have been something I watched as a kid that did it to me, but only the phobia remains. Google eludes me. I cannot put my hand anywhere near one, though. 

I'm also afraid of lawn mowers.  But, I know where that one came from.  I was reading a book when I was a kid, and the dad of the main character went to clean out grass from the blades and came out a couple fingers short. I won't mow a lawn, either.

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm also afraid of lawn mowers.  But, I know where that one came from.  I was reading a book when I was a kid, and the dad of the main character went to clean out grass from the blades and came out a couple fingers short. I won't mow a lawn, either.

Somehow, despite knowing someone who lost half a foot to a lawnmower, we are cool. Phobias are so weird.

[gonzosgirrl]

Free advice for @The Companion and @Katy M : Never watch Final Destination.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Free advice for @The Companion and @Katy M : Never watch Final Destination.

Don't worry.  I will NOT:)

[Frost]

I just re-watched this episode on TNT and I really really tried to keep an open mind about Missouri....but she destroyed that effort pretty much immediately.  She is so insufferable about Dean for no reason whatsoever.  Why on earth would she order Dean to clean up the house after the poltergeist and Dean alone?  Not to mention the "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" crack.  Missouri is an unnecessary irritant in an otherwise good episode.

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, Frost said:

I just re-watched this episode on TNT and I really really tried to keep an open mind about Missouri....but she destroyed that effort pretty much immediately.  She is so insufferable about Dean for no reason whatsoever.  Why on earth would she order Dean to clean up the house after the poltergeist and Dean alone?  Not to mention the "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" crack.  Missouri is an unnecessary irritant in an otherwise good episode.

She's the reason I stopped watching it after Dean's phone call to John today.

That little scene is so extraordinary to me that there was no way I was going to allow Misery to ruin it for me. 

Not today and not ever again, tbh.

We talked about this recently in another thread, but this is how I find myself rewatching certain episodes lately, and it happened a lot today given the episodes that they reaired on TNT.