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S02.E10: Better Angels

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So was that Mira's plan all along? 
Were the others (with the train tickets) just decoys?

If there was a season 3:
Perhaps the crossing would be reopened —ostensibly to get a vaccine for the virus— and Emily Prime would reunite with Alpha Howard. He did kiss her goodbye.

But without another season, it's fitting that we viewers are left feeling a bit as bereft as our heroes and anti-heroes.

If Howard Prime had not "made a better deal" and crossed back to the other side, would he have been vulnerable to the virus?

Was Ethel's plan exactly what she did? Was it to send them after decoys? Because, if so, that almost didn't happen.



 

Edited by shapeshifter
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Well! They did their best to try and wrap up. The pace was too fast (some scenes could have used more time). What seemed like days happened in hours from Howard holding Clare/Evil Spencer to the amount of time driving to when Emily arrived at the hospital.

Since last week's episode, it seems the Indigo kids already should have been at their destinations before Emily, Naya and others arrived at the cabin. Did they go to the movies and tour the city since they left Ethel?

I was expecting Howard Alpha to ask Prime what was his real job on that side and what did he do to Marcel and the others that he resulted in him getting a beating at ECHO.

Why was Howard Alpha given a gun? He should have stayed back at the van.

From the side of the cabin, was that suppose to be Howard prime's view or some one else lurking/watching?

It was nice for Howard and Emily to have a smile but I guess they were still headed for a breakup (if the explosion didn't happen).

Would Clare be proud of Ethel sticking to the mission (even with reservations) unlike her?

Howard showing up at the station was too easy and with no Baldwin to assist (she had a nice nap this episode).

I like the one girl (shot) still walking as if she was determined to make the train before Howard finished her.

Ian didn't do enough to redeem himself. I thought he wrote his suicide note. It would have been funny if Nomi hoped out the car high/fiving Indigo people as Ian watched. If there is a season 3, it should open with Emily assassinating him.

After Mira's day, she still had time/energy to run to the store and shop. She should have had Ian buy the items. I'm happy she's dead but it wasn't satisfying.

Why was Naya so confident giving Clare guarantees? She could be reassigned with new management especially if Peter's father in law is in charge (I doubt he forgot her challenging his direction... probably will move her to the basement).

I am not sure where Peter could find the strength to live with Clare. I would have liked to seen the conversation about what she did to her other. I guess he knows without asking.

If Peter had poisoned the drink and they both died, I would have been happy.

If this had ended with Yaneck watching his grand daughter, enjoying the day, learning about both sides and having peace with it... I could have accepted no more seasons. But with Mira's last "FU", now I want more!

Find a new home Marks!
 

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25 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

So was that Mira's plan all along? 
Were the others (with the train tickets) just decoys?

I assumed that Yanek was a backup plan in case the others were caught before they could carry out their mission.

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4 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Why was Howard Alpha given a gun? He should have stayed back at the van.

Yeah, double take for me too on Howard Alpha given a gun at the van, but he did shoot and kill someone recently. 
But then I was thinking WTF, did Howard A maybe give Howard P' his hat in the van, and it is now Howard P' with the gun?

4 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Since last week's episode, it seems the Indigo kids already should have been at their destinations before Emily, Naya and others arrived at the cabin. Did they go to the movies and tour the city since they left Ethel?

I momentarily thought something similar.
Maybe the writers et al. edited this episode after they knew that there was no third season on STARZ but had a possibility elsewhere.

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4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So was that Mira's plan all along? 
Were the others (with the train tickets) just decoys?

I agree with paulvdb. Also, she wanted to make sure he died for killing her father.

Also, are we sure it's the flu Mira gave Yanek to spread? Maybe it was poison just to kill him. 

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7 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah, double take for me too on Howard Alpha given a gun at the van, but he did shoot and kill someone recently. 
But then I was thinking WTF, did Howard A maybe give Howard P' his hat in the van, and it is now Howard P' with the gun?

He did shoot someone and killed Pope last season but Alpha side doesn't know. They should have treated him as Interface Howard with no weapons training and have him stay behind. I guess they needed an excuse for him and Emily to have a final face to face.

Not only the hat but there would have been a magician like wardrobe change.

11 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I momentarily thought something similar.
Maybe the writers et al. edited this episode after they knew that there was no third season on STARZ but had a possibility elsewhere.

Something didn't add up. Timing was weird.

Also, what was the point of leaving Ethel behind? She could have taken Turkey or Greece. What was blowing up the cabin going to accomplish? They could have left trip wires/traps at the cabin, been long gone, no one knew their faces and where they were going. Mission would have successful. Stupidity always gets these villains!

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46 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Also, what was the point of leaving Ethel behind? She could have taken Turkey or Greece. What was blowing up the cabin going to accomplish? They could have left trip wires/traps at the cabin, been long gone, no one knew their faces and where they were going. Mission would have successful. Stupidity always gets these villains!

While I would agree that 99.9% villains are either too smart or too stupid, and that in this show Mira did become a bit of a Super Villain, the show was pretty smart, so, maybe Ethel was supposed to wait until after her cohorts' trains departed and then blow up the place if Naya & Co. didn't find the cabin--and if they did find the cabin: Kablooey!
In any event, Ethel deliberately tripped the wire, right? 

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1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

While I would agree that 99.9% villains are either too smart or too stupid, and that in this show Mira did become a bit of a Super Villain, the show was pretty smart, so, maybe Ethel was supposed to wait until after her cohorts' trains departed and then blow up the place if Naya & Co. didn't find the cabin--and if they did find the cabin: Kablooey!
In any event, Ethel deliberately tripped the wire, right? 

Ethel told Emily she was order to clean up/detonate/kill herself hours ago (way before Naya and others arrived).  So they could have blown up the place and all left together. 

Yes. Ethel tripped the wire on purpose. Prison and their food, along with the news of STARZ not renewing the show probably scared her.

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19 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Ethel told Emily she was order to clean up/detonate/kill herself hours ago (way before Naya and others arrived).  So they could have blown up the place and all left together.

Right. So are we supposed to think Ethel's words to Emily were part of Ethel's "something special" assignment?

Otherwise, like you said, why did they not just blow up the place when they left? 

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3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Right. So are we supposed to think Ethel's words to Emily were part of Ethel's "something special" assignment?

Otherwise, like you said, why did they not just blow up the place when they left? 

I don't believe it was part of it. I think Ethel was hesitating to blow up and truthful to Emily. She wanted that other life. She could have easily engaged in a shoot out from the cabin. Why bother talk to Emily.

I also question: If the cell wanted to really "clean up", why did they leave the Alpha Indigo school with all the evidence, a flu case and other clues behind? Were they very sloppy or lazy writing? 

Did Alpha management sneak over to Prime? I wonder if anyone found the bodies on the 4th floor. I guess if they did, probably wouldn't know who those people were.

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8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So was that Mira's plan all along? 
Were the others (with the train tickets) just decoys?

Yanek was Plan B in case the operatives were stopped, since no one even knew about him. But he represents only one point of outbreak, in Germany. If they had succeeded, there would have been points across the world, spreading the virus farther faster.

There's now also a good chance our heroes will recognize what's happening once there are reports of the outbreak and act to contain it.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Was Ethel's plan exactly what she did? Was it to send them after decoys? Because, if so, that almost didn't happen.

Can't have been, since that would have depended on somehow knowing Emily would live long enough to scribble a message. So the plan was most likely as she said, for her to have already blown herself up hours ago. That was the special assignment. Which also tracks with Spencer telling Clare it was already too late (it would have been, if Ethel hadn't hesitated). And they weren't decoys.

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8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If Howard Prime had not "made a better deal" and crossed back to the other side, would he have been vulnerable to the virus?

Presumably yes. Ethel said "they die out there, I die right here" about her compatriots. So the virus would have eventually killed them; thus Prime people are susceptible.

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13 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Since last week's episode, it seems the Indigo kids already should have been at their destinations before Emily, Naya and others arrived at the cabin. Did they go to the movies and tour the city since they left Ethel?

Their trains were all leaving at 11:00 PM, and most of this episode was the same day as the previous episode.

13 hours ago, mxc90 said:

I was expecting Howard Alpha to ask Prime what was his real job on that side and what did he do to Marcel and the others that he resulted in him getting a beating at ECHO.

It was because he gave them to ECHO.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Their trains were all leaving at 11:00 PM, and most of this episode was the same day as the previous episode.

I understand the time and that's a long day for all that happened. It's this part of the storytelling that was off to me. They were 5 steps ahead of the authorities and still messed up. Dumb Villains!

8 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

It was because he gave them to ECHO.

Right. Howard Alpha took a beating for it and should have given him $hit. He only got really angry with him after Emily died. 

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9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Right. So are we supposed to think Ethel's words to Emily were part of Ethel's "something special" assignment?

Otherwise, like you said, why did they not just blow up the place when they left? 

I prefer to believe that everything Ethel did was part of Mira’s plan, and that the team getting train tickets was expendable because Yanik was the real plan all along.

That explained Mira’s little smile as she died and said that everyone “would die in their own time.” She knew Yanik was still out there. 

I really liked this ep until the end. Everyone’s lives were resetting, some worse off (poor Howard) and some maybe better (Peter). I liked how clean it was. And then damn Yanik in the park. Grrrrr.

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If they closed the border by sealing off the wall, that's not permanent is it?  Couldn't someone on either side just as easily open the border again?

A great series that was marred by the last two episodes IMO.  Super-Mina, as many have pointed out, is one flaw.  Howard Alpha not telling anyone about his wife's reveal for hours, as the fate of his world hung in the balance, is another.  The writers got lazy?... rushed?... frustrated that their fine work spanning nearly two seasons had to come to such a premature end? 

Enough doors were left open for a sequel, which I would still like to see, even with the shortcomings of the finale. 

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Once again, the Quayles fail upward.

At the end of season 1 they should have been thrown in the slammer.

This season he loses his job and once they found out he was harbor8ng Clare, he should have lost his freedom.

But now he gets the cushy job back.

I suppose he and Clare along with one or both Howard would have been pursuing the Shadows while a new big bad would have emerged.

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No way was that (originally) meant to be a series finale.   I was OK with most of it until the last scene.  No way did Mira give Janek just the "flu".  That was something much more virulent.

How do we go about petitioning Netflix to pick up this show?

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2 hours ago, Ottis said:

I prefer to believe that everything Ethel did was part of Mira’s plan, and that the team getting train tickets was expendable because Yanik was the real plan all along.

That explained Mira’s little smile as she died and said that everyone “would die in their own time.” She knew Yanik was still out there. 

I really liked this ep until the end. Everyone’s lives were resetting, some worse off (poor Howard) and some maybe better (Peter). I liked how clean it was. And then damn Yanik in the park. Grrrrr.

Can't be. There was no earthly way for Ethel to ensure Emily would get the information on the train team out before dying. And Mira's plan wouldn't waste time toying with her only to blow her up with no information getting out. It was just Ethel's hesitation that gave our heroes a chance to accomplish something.

Yes, Mira smiled because she knew Yanek would be out there no matter what else happened and that it was very unlikely anyone would intercept him. But that doesn't mean the train team weren't intended to succeed in Mira's most optimal scenario. They were going all over the world, creating a much bigger outbreak much sooner than just Yanek will, and our heroes did indeed set back a part of Mira's overall plan. But Mira knew that regardless, there was guaranteed to be *some* outbreak because she'd injected Yanek.

However, remember our heroes in Alpha will recognize what's going on when the outbreak becomes news. And Emily Prime knows that Management was impersonated and can prove it using the communication devices, and thus send a message to Alpha warning them that they've been tricked and be on the lookout. And also reopen contact so that Alpha can benefit from Prime's medical advances in treating the flu.

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I don't know if anyone noticed that, but right before Ethel tripped the wire, as she and Emily got off the bench, Peter acted like he was getting some sort of static or interference in his earpiece.  I wonder if that had anything to do with Ethel apparent change of heart.

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17 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

There was no earthly way for Ethel to ensure Emily would get the information on the train team out before dying. And Mira's plan wouldn't waste time toying with her only to blow her up with no information getting out.

Sure, but maybe Ethel was supposed to wait and see if they saw the trip wires, and, if they did, lure in as many as possible to within the blast range before she tripped it herself "surrendering." Not an elegant plan, but is it plausible?

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Tough night for James Cromwell. First, keeling over and dying from the flu. Then I switched over to Berlin Station at 10pm and watched James Cromwell’s character kills himself via a gunshot. 

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20 hours ago, paulvdb said:

I assumed that Yanek was a backup plan in case the others were caught before they could carry out their mission.

That was how I saw it as well.

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This may be stupid, but I'm just going to assume that Mira didn't give Yanek the superflu -- she just killed him to let her other side know what it was like to see your father die. 

If there's no season 3, then I can assume everyone just lived happily ever after and the good guys won. 

And that's what I'm sticking to. 🙂

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15 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Yanek was Plan B in case the operatives were stopped, since no one even knew about him. But he represents only one point of outbreak, in Germany. If they had succeeded, there would have been points across the world, spreading the virus farther faster.

There's now also a good chance our heroes will recognize what's happening once there are reports of the outbreak and act to contain it.

This was my first thought.  Since key people already know about the virus, authorities will be on the lookout and will be able to contain it from the start.  Mira didn't know before she died that her Indigo plan had been foiled.  I think she gave the virus to Yanek as revenge for her father's murder rather than as insurance in case Indigo was caught before they could unleash the virus themselves.

As for the Indigo plot, it was kind of dumb:  They left scads of evidence around in the Indigo house on the Alpha side.  They conveniently gather together in the train station at 11:00 to go to their respective cities making it so much easier to all be caught at once and shot by Super Howard.  And what the hell was with Baldwin napping back at the hostage house?  What the hell was the point of Baldwin's character at all this season?

Though it hasn't sounded like it in this post, I really did enjoy the show, and I hope it is picked up by a streaming service that I'm already paying for, since I refuse to pay for more. 

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19 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Yanek was Plan B in case the operatives were stopped, since no one even knew about him. But he represents only one point of outbreak, in Germany. If they had succeeded, there would have been points across the world, spreading the virus farther faster.

There's now also a good chance our heroes will recognize what's happening once there are reports of the outbreak and act to contain it.

That will be season 3.  Oh, wait.

Although rushed, I did like that everything was wrapped up pretty well (except for the new flu outbreak).  I felt awful for Howard Alpha, losing his Emily like that.  Until the doors were sealed I still thought there was a chance that the Howards would switch worlds.  Guess it's better that they stuck with their own.  I was happy to see Peter and Clare trying to mend things.  How cute were they while talking about changing Spencer's name?  Those crazy kids might just make it.  And to think in season 1 I wanted them both dead.

Would there still be a need for the Office of Whatever once the doors were irrevocably (hah) sealed?  Clare's dad and his counterpart seemed to imply there would be no more communication either, so what would all those people be doing all day?  Naya's team could still hunt the imbedded agents, but all the day to day stuff most of those people were doing would be ended.  (Until of course the flu started spreading.)

Well done series.  It had some flaws but on the whole it was smart and satisfying.

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8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Yes, Mira smiled because she knew Yanek would be out there no matter what else happened and that it was very unlikely anyone would intercept him. But that doesn't mean the train team weren't intended to succeed in Mira's most optimal scenario.

I didn't say that the plan didn't *hope* that the train team got out. Clearly that was part of it. However, I believe that Mira knew the train team would get all the attention (that's especially true if Mira had given Ethel specific instructions, which she then followed) and that Mira had a plan B that only she knew about. 

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Sure, but maybe Ethel was supposed to wait and see if they saw the trip wires, and, if they did, lure in as many as possible to within the blast range before she tripped it herself "surrendering." Not an elegant plan, but is it plausible?

Exactly. Mira wasn't just driven, she was angry, and wanted revenge. And I think this whole scenario with Ethel was either what Mira told Ethel to do, or what Mira knew Ethel would do because she knew Ethel and Mira was so damn smart.

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

They were going all over the world, creating a much bigger outbreak much sooner than just Yanek will, and our heroes did indeed set back a part of Mira's overall plan.

Actually, they *weren't* going all over the world. They were going essentially to neighboring European countries (depending on how you view Russia). I was actually surprised that the destinations were so nearby. Why not Australia? Why not the US? Why not South America? It was Paris, London, Madrid, somewhere in Russia (Moscow?), somewhere in Poland (Warsaw or Krakow, can't recall off top of my head) and maybe one other place.  This might make sense if you viewed the chances of the train team making it as less than optimal, and as much a distraction as anything.

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

But Mira knew that regardless, there was guaranteed to be *some* outbreak because she'd injected Yanek.

We actually don't know anything about the efficacy of the virus, so it *could* be that Yanik is all she needed. That's a bit of a hand wave but possible.

5 hours ago, RealityCreator said:

As for the Indigo plot, it was kind of dumb:  They left scads of evidence around in the Indigo house on the Alpha side.  They conveniently gather together in the train station at 11:00 to go to their respective cities making it so much easier to all be caught at once and shot by Super Howard.

Yes. Conveniently. Hmmm. Wonder if that may have been the plan. Keep everyone busy with the train station while Yanik was the actual delivery mechanism.

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Would there still be a need for the Office of Whatever once the doors were irrevocably (hah) sealed?  Clare's dad and his counterpart seemed to imply there would be no more communication either, so what would all those people be doing all day? 

There was a whole speech by the two directors (one in each world) that said Diplomacy would be disbanded and thanking everyone for their work. Then at the end, it appears Strategy still exists. I'm not sure of the scope of Interface, or whether it was still needed.

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Although rushed, I did like that everything was wrapped up pretty well (except for the new flu outbreak). 

Yeah, that last bit bummed me out. It felt like an era in these two worlds had ended, after an attempt to connect and all the corruption that went with it. And then the virus. Will anyone even survive? Bummer.

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8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Sure, but maybe Ethel was supposed to wait and see if they saw the trip wires, and, if they did, lure in as many as possible to within the blast range before she tripped it herself "surrendering." Not an elegant plan, but is it plausible?

Nah, that seems far-fetched. Only one operative (Emily) was lured into blast range. And why risk giving her accurate information even if she was going to be blown up? Just in case she didn't die, it would be better to lie to her. And the only reason anyone showed up there at all was because Spencer told Clare where the safehouse was. It couldn't have been predicted Clare would go to Spencer or that the two of them would be captured. And Spencer himself believed it would be too late if they did go there (because Ethel was supposed to have already blown it up). And Ethel had already been portrayed as conflicted, so it fits that this was genuine. Besides, it's not as good drama if the protagonists are completely following Mira's plan the whole time in the finale instead of both sides having mixed successes.

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16 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

It couldn't have been predicted Clare would go to Spencer or that the two of them would be captured.

I think you keep overlooking the fact that Mira was smart. The way things happened was one possible path, which occurred that way because Mira in part or in entirety arranged the pieces to achieve. You are right that it could have happened other ways (for instance, they could have shot Ethel dead while she sat next to Emily with a gun). And it it had, perhaps there was another set of pieces Mira put in place. We will never know.

As I said, I *prefer to believe* that what happened was Mira's plan, and that both her smile as she died and her choice of worlds ("they will all die in their own time" sarcasm) support that. If so, it was elegant. And it matches the mythology the show took pains to set up around Mira.

The path you lay out is pedestrian and not very interesting. There is only drama because we don't know any better. If it was Mira's plan, she created the drama we thought we saw, while something else entirely was happening. THAT's good TV. That's why I like my preference better. YMMV of course.

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59 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The path you lay out is pedestrian and not very interesting. There is only drama because we don't know any better. If it was Mira's plan, she created the drama we thought we saw, while something else entirely was happening. THAT's good TV. That's why I like my preference better. YMMV of course.

No, I find it more interesting and less pedestrian if the heroes and villains are *both* smart and capable and not everything that ever happens is all down to Mira. Smart villains should be able to anticipate possible outcomes but not to the level of omniscience and omnipotence. Being played again and again throughout a season is one thing, but the finale is when the heroes should have their most genuine win. And it's more interesting and less pedestrian if characters like Ethel are genuinely conflicted and have some humanity that can be reached. As I said, if it were all a plot it would have been smarter for her to lie to Emily before triggering the explosives. Then Howard wouldn't have shown up at the train station and there would be multiple outbreaks instead of one. There's no need to distract them with the train team when people weren't looking for Yanek anyway. The Yanek part *was* the foolproof part of Mira's plan (assuming she would succeed in taking ECHO after the Crossing was closed at the beginning of the season and she could no longer communicate directly with Spencer or the train team).

It's conceivable that Ethel *was* supposed to be a distraction and trap for anyone who showed up looking for her friends (they might have had an inkling Emily could remember where their safehouses were, and this would explain why her job was "more important" and why they were more concerned with cleaning up this site than the Alpha School R&D site, and the woman who assigned her had previously been shown to be slightly suspicious of Clare), but had a moment of weakness and gave actual information to Emily that wasn't part of the plan before ultimately resolving to blow the explosives. That would be more human and satisfying, and avoid the fly in the logic ointment of Emily being told the truth by an Ethel who's entirely faking. But in that case, it was presumably more the lead train terrorist woman's idea than Mira's; she told Ethel the plan had changed (because she and Spencer suspected Clare after that convo in Spencer's car? And/or she suspected Spencer wasn't objective about Clare - hence him not knowing the place hadn't already been blown up?).

Observation: Mira Alpha must have had children at a late age (she was in her mid to late teens when the Crossing was created so she's in her mid to late forties now, and her children are much younger than the ones Mira Prime "raised" at the School).

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Ok Mira again was this mastermind who had the house boobytrapped to kill Emily Alpha and some redshirts?  For what end?  If she wanted to take out Emily just send a couple of assasins after her.

And they had these huge boxes of viruses but the way the will spread is through 10 shadows going to different cities within reach of trains from Berlin.  Why take a train to Istanbul, which is on the other side of the continent or in another continent?

Have they never heard of cheap flights?  But then they wouldn’t have Howard Prime taking out all the 10 shadows in one fell swoop.

If they make it to those places, then what?  Is the virus spread by airborne methods?  What were the going to do, sneeze on a lot of people or swap bodily fluids?

As for Yanek causing an outbreak, sure he coughed up a bit and those children can be infected, though you’d think they’d be quick to quarantine the kids.  It would be strange  if they didn’t notice Yanek crossing back into Alpha the last few days before they’d close it for good because of this terrorist plot.

Instead of Mira foresee8ng everything — she didn’t foresee Emily Prime getting the jump on her — the writers probably wanted some route to continue the story if the show was renewed.

Other thing is they were horsetrading technologies.  Why wouldn’t both sides send spies to steal a lot of that stuff long ago?  They could have had a lot of plots which involve stealing secrets, so kind of like He Americans.

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2 hours ago, scrb said:

Ok Mira again was this mastermind who had the house boobytrapped to kill Emily Alpha and some redshirts?  For what end?  If she wanted to take out Emily just send a couple of assasins after her.

And they had these huge boxes of viruses but the way the will spread is through 10 shadows going to different cities within reach of trains from Berlin.  Why take a train to Istanbul, which is on the other side of the continent or in another continent?

Have they never heard of cheap flights?  But then they wouldn’t have Howard Prime taking out all the 10 shadows in one fell swoop.

If they make it to those places, then what?  Is the virus spread by airborne methods?  What were the going to do, sneeze on a lot of people or swap bodily fluids?

As for Yanek causing an outbreak, sure he coughed up a bit and those children can be infected, though you’d think they’d be quick to quarantine the kids.  It would be strange  if they didn’t notice Yanek crossing back into Alpha the last few days before they’d close it for good because of this terrorist plot.

 Instead of Mira foresee8ng everything — she didn’t foresee Emily Prime getting the jump on her — the writers probably wanted some route to continue the story if the show was renewed.

Other thing is they were horsetrading technologies.  Why wouldn’t both sides send spies to steal a lot of that stuff long ago?  They could have had a lot of plots which involve stealing secrets, so kind of like He Americans.

I agree with all of this.  If Mira intended Yanek to be the primary source of a flu outbreak, she wasn't very smart at all.  Yanek is on the radar of everyone in Strategy and above.  The minute it's known that he has died of some as yet unheard of strain of flu, containment measures would be instituted immediately.  Thousands might die (including Mira Alpha and children - Mira Prime suggested Yanek visit them in order to give them the flu, apparently), but not untold millions, which was Mira's actual hope and plan.

Edited by RealityCreator
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Wowee!  I finally understand what was going on.  Well, maybe...
Questions: 
1) Was Yanek injected with the flu? 
2) If yes, is it now spreading to all the folks who rushed to his aid? 
3) I noticed that the flu-spreaders were all assigned to NATO countries (yes?).  Does this imply that this was ultimately a communist plot?  

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2 hours ago, grommit2 said:

Does this imply that this was ultimately a communist plot?  

Everything is a communist plot.

I didn't like Yanek dying like that, as it was too predictable. That was the only thing that would have allowed a season 3. The story was over anyway.

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Yanek did not have what we think of as the flu.  It was some kind of hemorrhagic virus such as Ebola which causes bleeding.  I don't think this was the same kind of virus that they were testing in the cottage, it wasn't set up for the quarantine conditions you'd need for something that lethal and that contagious.  I think the mass group did get the flu, but Yanek got something else, he was Plan B.  

I was surprised by the "local" destinations assigned to the group, however in central Europe trains and train travel are much more common.  If they start to infect other travelers along the way, the virus could spread around the globe in time.

Did anyone else note that Emily Alpha died off-screen?  If they had a closed coffin funeral, it might be possible that she's alive.

If Emily Prime now knows that Mira faked the Management notice closing the Crossing, could she have it re-opened?  They didn't destroy it after all, they just welded it shut.  They probably don't even know how to destroy it. 

Just hypothesizing some Season 3 scenarios in case a streaming service picks the show up.  Otherwise, for me it's a Carnivale redux.  An ending, but not satisfactory.  "Mira wins in the end" doesn't do it for me.

ETA: Just read some articles that the show's creator is shopping the series to other outlets.

Edited by Quilt Fairy

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I really wish this is not the end but that sounds utopic. That Mira killed Yanek and probably her Other and her kids subsequently was cruel but fits her. Talk about revenge best served cold.

God I will miss this show. The main cast was so exceptional and the characters writing was so good it is a shame to lose this, especially since the story could have now gone other places, the worlds expanded...argh

Some stories were closed but it still feels like a lot is unresolved for the characters, and as one who didn't mind the plotting too much, I would like to know where Alpha Howard will go, what is going on with the Quayles because nothing is resolve there, see Howard Prine be a substitute father to Baldwin and maybe reassess his choices, see where Prime Emily goes now knowing Mira is dead and her feelings for Alpha Howard, watch Naya Temple be awesome...I will really, really miss ghese characters (and Peter Prime!!! I need to know if he is still watching his rugby matches 24/7!!!)

Really saddened that good TV is overlooked. And I still hope the show will get some recognition but part of me thinks it will go under the rug (especially with GoT ending ghis year) Maybe it required too much attention, needed more humor (I feel only Peter provided some comedy at times) or simply a better network/advertising)

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One advantage of train travel over planes is that trains usually have multiple stops along the way. That means that the eight would infect other passengers on the trains and they would start spreading the infection at each place where the train stops. This would ensure a faster spread of the disease. But this plan will limit the spread of the disease mostly to Europe although it would probably spread to other continents eventually.

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2 hours ago, paulvdb said:

One advantage of train travel over planes is that trains usually have multiple stops along the way

Also, does train travel within the EU require little or no identification certification (in comparison to air travel)?

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9 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Also, does train travel within the EU require little or no identification certification (in comparison to air travel)?

I don't travel internationally by train, but I believe that is also correct. Some of them were traveling to non-EU countries (I believe Istanbul and Moscow were mentioned) so they would get passport checks, but I guess that would happen when they leave the EU so there would be stops along the way where they could spread the infection before they were checked.

Of course they all took the place of people who were born in the Alpha world, so they probably would be able to get official documents in their names and would be indistinguishable from their others. So as far as any ID checks are concerned they should not have any problems as long as their names are not on a no-fly list.

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7 hours ago, paulvdb said:

One advantage of train travel over planes is that trains usually have multiple stops along the way. That means that the eight would infect other passengers on the trains and they would start spreading the infection at each place where the train stops. This would ensure a faster spread of the disease. But this plan will limit the spread of the disease mostly to Europe although it would probably spread to other continents eventually.

OTOH, they were all sitting there in one place so that Howard Prime could pick them off.  I suspect that was the real reason.

Even if they all left on planes, they'd be in different gates all over the airport and with much different departure times.

Actually that would be the case with trains too, different departure times.  Probably easier for them to get rights to film on one train platform than to take over an international terminal.

Beyond film and plot logistics, planes would get them much faster to their destinations and they could start contaminating faster.  It depends on how the virus is spread though.  If it's like AIDS, they'd have to have exchange of bodily fluids so it would be relatively slow versus some virus which would survive being out of a body for a time.  They were all injected so maybe they'd have had to wait to get sick and start coughing like Yanek was.

So the first people they'd infect would be first responders?  But Berlin could get out word that there were carriers of these bioweapons and first people who came in contact would be quarantined so I think it would be effectively contained, like ebola was.

If they were caught by surprise, then it'd be a different story but the Alpha world knows about it.

Edited by scrb

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Am I the only person who thinks that Howard Prime's better plan was to switch with Howard Alpha?  

(The name of the episode is Better Angels)

Howard Prime wanted to be free on this side.

Switching with Howard Alpha would do just that....and maybe balance the karmic scales a little....and allow Howard Alpha to be with Emily Prime.

And hitter Baldwin always preferred Howard Alpha to Howard Prime.

And the Howard that crossed over looked back just like Howard Alpha did when he returned to this side.

In addition, the Howard that spoke with Naya Temple at the end of the episode felt a lot like Howard Prime doing his best to impersonate Howard Alpha.

(but I could be wrong....)

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On 2/17/2019 at 6:06 AM, mxc90 said:

I agree with paulvdb. Also, she wanted to make sure he died for killing her father.

Also, are we sure it's the flu Mira gave Yanek to spread? Maybe it was poison just to kill him. 

Yanek was on the Prime side during the original flu outbreak.  He should have been exposed to it then, or innoculated against it when they came up with a vaccine.  Poor continuity or a different injection?

Were the train conspirators getting shots of vaccine against the flu, or getting injections of it during the previous episode?

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Quote

Marks: I really hope that we've brought our characters to a landing place that says everything it needs to say about all of them. That they've all come around to a point of resolution, whether that be Howard or Howard Prime or Baldwin — who kind of strangely has found a father in Howard Prime at the end of the show, someone who began the show in search of that —

https://www.tvguide.com/news/counterpart-season-2-finale-justin-marks-interview/

Well I guess I could be wrong....the above quote is from an interview with the showrunner regarding the finale.  Maybe the Howards didn't switch before the final crossing.  😞

(it's the romantic in me)

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3 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Yanek was on the Prime side during the original flu outbreak.  He should have been exposed to it then, or innoculated against it when they came up with a vaccine.  Poor continuity or a different injection?

Probably tucked nicely away at ECHO, the virus couldn't reach.

3 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Were the train conspirators getting shots of vaccine against the flu, or getting injections of it during the previous episode?

 Injections of the flu. No vaccine. They were ready to die.

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16 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Yanek did not have what we think of as the flu.  It was some kind of hemorrhagic virus such as Ebola which causes bleeding.  I don't think this was the same kind of virus that they were testing in the cottage, it wasn't set up for the quarantine conditions you'd need for something that lethal and that contagious.  I think the mass group did get the flu, but Yanek got something else, he was Plan B.

It didn't seem like the flu would cause the veins to pop and rashes to appear. 

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On 2/18/2019 at 12:04 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

How do we go about petitioning Netflix to pick up this show?

Flood their mail room with boxes of Go games. I forget the show that was saved by doing something like this.

Also, Amazon Prime could add this show, "Prime" is already built in for their use.

Edited by mxc90
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So is this really the end of the show? It certainly felt like a series finale...until the last few minutes. Now I need more, I have to know if this strain of the flu spreads! Will they have to open the crossing again to all team up to get the antidote? The Howard's will have to work together again? That sounds awesome!

I kinda love how after all that drama, Howard Prime just shot the ever loving crap out of everyone who was going to distribute the flu. But of course Mira had a plan B, with the flu also infecting Yanek unbeknownst to him. Although after sitting through countless episodes of Mira being practically omniscient, it was awesome seeing Emily Prime take her down the way she tried to have her assassinated. Even with her final smug smile, that was satisfying. 

Peter and Claire giggling about renaming baby Spencer was adorable. Damn it, I am still rooting for those crazy kids! Even if there might be some hiccups, as Peter now might know what Claire did with her double, Peters original Claire. 

If this is the end of the show (which I hope its not) then I am really glad we got these two seasons at least. Some of the plotting towards the end was rather rushed (Mira can do everything! management is dead! The border is closed!) but it was generally a very smartly written show that used its premise in unique and interesting ways, exploring themes of identity, free will vs. destiny, and the ways in which science and discovery can be used for good and for evil. The show was also well directed and shot, and the acting was universally excellent. Not only did they put in just one great performance, most of the actors put in two! 

I really want to know how poor Peter Prime is doing. Did he ever finish watching his rugby match?!

You know, I think I am happier thinking that Yanek was just killed, and the flu wont spread and everything is fine now, especially without a season three. Yep, that my story!

Edited by tennisgurl
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