S03.E07: The Final Country

[12catcrazy]

I don't think Roland is part of it per se.  I think he had an idea that it reached higher up and "understood" that the powers that be wanted to label it "case closed".  

I can't really figure him telling Hoyt what happened to his security chief.   Maybe as others have said, the Hoyt security people had them tailed, or the dead guy (Harris?) was able to radio them when Hays and West pulled him over?  He was taking his time getting out of the car.

And for a "heartbreaking" finale - I'm guessing it might have something to do with either Hays' daughter or maybe even his wife.  

[shapeshifter]

IIRC, back in one of the earlier (maybe first) flashback scenes to 1990, I thought it was implied that Roland got a promotion for accepting the Trashman-as-culprit conclusion, and Wayne got bounced to a desk job for refusing to accept and keep quiet about it. No?
But I never thought Roland was enthusiastic about his role in the cover-up, or in any way immoral--just more pragmatic than Wayne.

Edited February 19, 2019 by shapeshifter

[ganesh]

I don't really know what's going to happen next week. I can't see much closure to the actual case. Maybe Roland and Wayne come to some closure, once Wayne maybe remembers or re-discovers what happened.

[Jextella]

On 2/17/2019 at 9:46 PM, clack said:

Was it Tom's mother who doubted that Tom was the father of Will and Julie? Maybe Julie wasn't just a replacement for Isabelle's dead daughter, but an actual blood relation -- Isabelle's husband was Julie's father, or perhaps Mr Hoyt himself.

This makes complete sense and would explain a TON.  Points for the idea!

[Ottis]

11 hours ago, ganesh said:

They could have told the same story in a much more straightforward way and had been just as compelling. Not everything has to be a Thing.

I agree, and that's true about this entire season, including the timelines. The acting is so good, and the era-setting is very good. Not sure why the show felt it needed the twisty stuff.

I  actually don't follow why Hays and West went after Harris and beat him, unless it was simply because they were desperate and under incredible pressure (and if that was it, we needed to see more about that beyond how they were struggling alone at home). That was an all-or-nothing move, and without a confession to ... something .... how would they ever defend their actions if Harris lived? Did they plan to kill him all along?

All of that seemed like a big leap from the evidence Hays had, that seemed circumstantial.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Ottis

[WaltersHair]

Quote

Yes, but—according to a bunch of L&O and The Closer episodes—if someone dies in the course of the committing of a crime, it's murder.

I can do you one better. Suspect flees from a pursuing officer. Officer gets into a car accident and mangles one leg. Over the course of 2 months, he develops a blood clot in his leg. The blood clot goes to his lungs and the officer dies of a pulmonary embolism. Suspect is charged with murder.

[LoveLeigh]

I rewatched this episode and I was appalled at the behavior of these two "detectives." They intimidated and verbally abused that teenager several episodes back (I forgot his name) and they have beaten suspects in that "barn." The murder of Harris James was the last straw for me. And it was all Wayne's idea. These are protagonists that should be in jail. 

I am certainly not rooting for them as old men to solve this crime. They do not have clean hands. They are sociopaths. I think the writer created a season 3 that is awful. I think it is interesting to watch the aging of the characters and he built in some interesting things like dementia, but this whole thing about Hoyt Foods and a "replacement child" is preposterous. 

I will really faint if Eliza turns out to be Julie's daughter. And I think Amelia is alive in 2015. 

[TexasGal]

1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

I can do you one better. Suspect flees from a pursuing officer. Officer gets into a car accident and mangles one leg. Over the course of 2 months, he develops a blood clot in his leg. The blood clot goes to his lungs and the officer dies of a pulmonary embolism. Suspect is charged with murder.

I just had flashbacks to law school exams. 

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I will really faint if Eliza turns out to be Julie's daughter.

E's name has been spelled so many ways on here that  wasn't always sure who people were talking about. It's Elisa, per IMDB.

[Jextella]

On 2/17/2019 at 9:46 PM, clack said:

Was it Tom's mother who doubted that Tom was the father of Will and Julie? Maybe Julie wasn't just a replacement for Isabelle's dead daughter, but an actual blood relation -- Isabelle's husband was Julie's father, or perhaps Mr Hoyt himself.

1

On 1/17/2019 at 5:43 PM, DakotaLavender said:

Season 3 story speculation: 

Why is Detective West even necessary in this series? A critic wrote many years ago... always look with a suspicious eye at the character who is not necessary to the story. 

West wanted to kill that little fox and he wanted to go find some guys to go beat up. Plus, he beat that suspect in that barn. I say West is seriously disturbed. There is more to him than has been revealed so far. 

 

I'm feeling as if Roland isn't involved.  It'd be way too obvious at this point.  My guess is that it's tied up in these two observations somehow. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I rewatched this episode and I was appalled at the behavior of these two "detectives." They intimidated and verbally abused that teenager several episodes back (I forgot his name) and they have beaten suspects in that "barn." The murder of Harris James was the last straw for me. And it was all Wayne's idea. These are protagonists that should be in jail. 

I am certainly not rooting for them as old men to solve this crime. They do not have clean hands. They are sociopaths.

Roland and Wayne's behavior seems par for the course to me for the time period--but I've lived in the Chicago area a big chunk of my life. I don't have any first hand knowledge about the South, but I assume it was similar. IMO, the only way the city of Chicago isn't going to go bankrupt compensating victims of tortured confessions is if they legalize and tax recreational marijuana.
So, even though I think Roland and Wayne were not only wrong, but stupid to beat Harris to the degree we saw, it's not beyond belief.
It just means they aren't  the heroes I wish they were.
I hope they're sorry.
BTW: Were they drinking before they tortured Harris? It wouldn't excuse their behavior, but it could explain it.
And: It was torture, but I bet they would never have called it that.

Note: I've also lived places with helpful cops, who did things like shot off the head of a rattlesnake on my washing machine in my garage and then gave the rattles to my fatherless 11-year-old, who, at age 40, still has them, and is now a dispatcher for law enforcement.

Edited February 20, 2019 by shapeshifter

[tennisgurl]

Rust and Cohle sighting! Well, a picture of them in a newspaper, but still, shared universe confirmed! I am WAY too excited about this! The pink room is in the middle of Carcosa somehow! 

Poor, poor Tom. He finally got his life back together after losing everything, and then when he gets close to some actual answers, he gets murdered, and posthumously framed for his kids murders. If Lucy and her cousin sold Julie to the chicken family, I dont think Tom knew a thing about it. No wonder Roland was so upset about his death. 

I figured that the guys killed someone, but not only did they kill someone, they killed their one actual lead in the case that could have pointed them in the right direction. I agree that the pedophile ring is a red herring, just informed further by bringing up the season one case, only for Wayne to say its nothing like that, and that Julie was probably kidnapped as a replacement kid for the unstable daughter of the chicken family. Her poor brother was probably collateral damage. Maybe the daughter was the actual killer, and she was the white woman, and Mr. June/Watts was the black man, and the daughter was the one who posed him praying, in remorse?

Now that we know that this season takes place in the same universe as season one, I wonder if we are going with the sort of ambiguously supernatural ending that we did in season one? Is Wayne actually somehow wandering into the past (hence his 90s self seemingly seeing 2015 him out of the corner of his eye when he was burning evidence) to get closure before his mind goes or he passes away, or is it just a visual showing is dementia? Or some of both? There was that whole scene early on where young Amelia is telling old Wayne how time is just a construct and ebbs and flows and all. 

[Razzberry]

Heck, Wayne and Roland are rookies compared to Rust and Marty when it comes to abusing suspects.    Reggie Ladeux getting shot in the head while handcuffed didn't bother me at all.. okay, I cheered... but the rationale here seems pretty sketchy.  😁

[Bannon]

On 2/19/2019 at 11:17 AM, DakotaLavender said:

I rewatched this episode and I was appalled at the behavior of these two "detectives." They intimidated and verbally abused that teenager several episodes back (I forgot his name) and they have beaten suspects in that "barn." The murder of Harris James was the last straw for me. And it was all Wayne's idea. These are protagonists that should be in jail. 

I am certainly not rooting for them as old men to solve this crime. They do not have clean hands. They are sociopaths. I think the writer created a season 3 that is awful. I think it is interesting to watch the aging of the characters and he built in some interesting things like dementia, but this whole thing about Hoyt Foods and a "replacement child" is preposterous. 

I will really faint if Eliza turns out to be Julie's daughter. And I think Amelia is alive in 2015. 

People can do the most awful things imaginable, but that doesn't make them sociopaths. In particular, both Wayne and Roland have displayed genuine feelings of regret and guilt. Sociopaths are incapable of having those feelings. 

I have no trouble with believing detectives like Wsyne and Roland would torture suspects. I have a huge problem with their 1990 versions torturing Hoyt Chicken's Chief of Security, in such a stupid fashion. That's pretty lazy writing.

[Blakeston]

I don't condone what Wayne and Roland did to Harris, but I understood their reasons.

The department had zero interest in investigating anything related to the abduction, being as they'd found another scapegoat.

And Harris had just killed a man who they both felt a lot of sympathy for (and caused an innocent man to be blamed for the death of his own child), and he was otherwise going to get away with it. Wayne and Roland were both dealing with a lot of guilt for their own parts in Tom's death - it was very tempting to lash out at someone else.

That said, I find it very hard to believe they would physically abuse him in such a way that it would be obvious he'd been roughed up.

I suspect that when (if) we find out the truth, it will turn out that Will tried to prevent Julie from being taken, and whoever was trying to facilitate the transfer ended up accidentally killing him. Will was the one who'd appointed himself Julie's protector.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

I suspect that when (if) we find out the truth, it will turn out that Will tried to prevent Julie from being taken, and whoever was trying to facilitate the transfer ended up accidentally killing him. Will was the one who'd appointed himself Julie's protector.

Or, maybe Julie pushed Will, sending him over a cliff-like edge and accidentally killing him, when he was trying to prevent her from being taken, when she wanted to be taken away from her poor home to a richer one with a pink room. If so, like Wayne and Roland, she would have a lot of regrets and secrets.

[ganesh]

I could roll with Julie being in on her own disappearance, accidentally killing the brother and having massive PSTD that she blocked it out. It would mirror the memory loss of Wayne. 

At least it's a little more straightforward than what's being presented. 

[LoveLeigh]

On 2/18/2019 at 9:36 PM, Jextella said:

Someone posted early in the series that the guilty party is usually the one least visible in the story - which would not be Roland.

I posted that. I think what I posted was that the guilty one is the person who is not necessary within the story, and that would be Roland. He is there only because at the end of the series, it is revealed he did something or is the piece which solves the mystery because he is the guilty person. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by DakotaLavender

[Milburn Stone]

On 2/17/2019 at 9:44 PM, Cardie said:

...the Purcell case is about obtaining Julie to replace Isabelle's daughter and killing off anyone who was involved and threatened to make waves. She might be Tom's daughter after all, although it would make sense if she were Hoyt's...
 

That would lend credence to my theory from an episode or two back that "the man I see on TV who pretended to be my father" is Hoyt, who saturates the airwaves with his own chicken commercials much as Frank Perdue used to do.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 2/19/2019 at 7:42 PM, tennisgurl said:

Now that we know that this season takes place in the same universe as season one, I wonder if we are going with the sort of ambiguously supernatural ending that we did in season one? Is Wayne actually somehow wandering into the past (hence his 90s self seemingly seeing 2015 him out of the corner of his eye when he was burning evidence) to get closure before his mind goes or he passes away, or is it just a visual showing is dementia? Or some of both? There was that whole scene early on where young Amelia is telling old Wayne how time is just a construct and ebbs and flows and all. 

It really reminds me of something from somewhere....something almost like:

"I mean, how many times have we had this conversation?...Well, who knows? When you can’t remember your lives, you can’t change your lives, and that is the terrible and secret fate of all life. You’re trapped, by that nightmare you keep waking up into.... Time is a flat circle. Everything we’ve ever done or will do, we’re gonna do over and over and over again."

😉

20 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I suspect that when (if) we find out the truth, it will turn out that Will tried to prevent Julie from being taken, and whoever was trying to facilitate the transfer ended up accidentally killing him. Will was the one who'd appointed himself Julie's protector.

I suspect the same. 

15 hours ago, ganesh said:

I could roll with Julie being in on her own disappearance, accidentally killing the brother and having massive PSTD that she blocked it out. It would mirror the memory loss of Wayne. 

At least it's a little more straightforward than what's being presented. 

I really like this idea & would like if this was what happened. It would explain more about what Julie's experienced.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 2/18/2019 at 4:42 PM, Razzberry said:

🤣

These conspiracies go deep in the south, but now they mentioned it's happening in Nebraska as well.  Season 4 perhaps?   HBO and Pizzalotto must think season 2 was unpopular only because people wanted a carbon copy of season 1.  No, it was unpopular because it sucked.

Jury's still out on this one, but I suspect Nic P is a one-hit wonder. I think the acting is mainly carrying it.

I think when they mentioned Nebraska, they were referencing the Franklin child prostitution ring allegations, which were eventually proven false, but were a pretty big deal around 1990 before they were debunked.  Even though the allegations were false, MANY people still believe the allegations were real and there's a grand conspiracy/several grand conspiracies to protect powerful businessmen, politicians, the CIA, etc. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_child_prostitution_ring_allegations

I think that's the Nebraska allegations/ring that Elisa referenced, rather than something Pizzolatto just made up (of course, the allegations in the Franklin Scandal are made up, but the investigation did happen in "real life," was fairly well-publicized, & conspiracy theories grew out of it that persist to this day.  It's almost impossible to follow missing cases of children/teens for any period of time without someone interjecting about the Franklin Scandal and Johnny Gosh.  Many people with good intentions have never heard/read that the allegations were proven false.  And also, tons of conspiracy theorists promote it as truth as well- http://franklinscandal.com/. Anyway, the allegations/story in Nebraska isn't something the writer made up, so to speak.  

[meep.meep]

On 2/18/2019 at 9:12 AM, izabella said:

I know there's been a trend since Lost to do the flashbacks and whatnot, but I hate that form of storytelling, and it's overused.  Way overused.  It makes me feel like they don't actually have a good story that can be told in a linear fashion, so they chop it up to make it more compelling simply because we are confused and just get pieces at a time.  I am weary of it here.  Especially because they expect me to believe there are two one-eyed men running around this little town in the same timeline.

Two black one-eyed men running around this little town at the same time!

This episode seemed to have more actual plot - always a good thing in my book.  I am very tired of the use of non-linear presentation.  All it is doing is turning a story that could have been told in 3 or 4 episodes, into an 8 episode series.  It is self indulgent.

[Ottis]

On 2/19/2019 at 2:07 PM, Jextella said:

A critic wrote many years ago... always look with a suspicious eye at the character who is not necessary to the story. 

That's arguably a lot of people on this show. Hays' wife, the uncle, the father of the kids, the mother (don't need both),  the dead brother, Hays' kids, the trash collecting Native American, etc. Were any of them necessary? Roland seems more central than any of them, plus he plays the role of the sympathetic friend reacting to Hays' memory issues. 

I sometimes think Roland is seeing through Hayes somehow. Not sure what exactly he is spotting. Maybe the point earlier that Hayes' memory issues aren't as bad as we are led to believe.

The only thing I am sure of is that this season is way more convoluted than necessary.

[Blakeston]

I think Roland is pretty necessary to the story as it is. It would have been boring as sin to watch someone as introverted as Hays investigate the case by himself. And part of the True Detective formula is cops working as a team and making wisecracks together. I think the contentious friendship between them has done a lot to illuminate the main character.

That said, I'm expecting some sort of betrayal from Roland before the finale is over. Maybe Hays will reveal that he wants to come clean before he dies, so that the world will know exactly what happened...leading Roland to kill him, to avoid a murder charge? That would certainly be dark.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

That would lend credence to my theory from an episode or two back that "the man I see on TV who pretended to be my father" is Hoyt, who saturates the airwaves with his own chicken commercials much as Frank Perdue used to do.

Somehow I missed this when you first posted it, @Milburn Stone.
Yes, having "the man I see on TV who pretended to be my father" being Hoyt fits the whole tone of the story because her misinterpreted declaration results in the tragic death of Tom, a successfully recovering alcoholic.
There are a ton of misunderstandings in this season, often due to people keeping secrets and being embarrassed to share their psychological struggles.
The hidden tragedies beget more tragedies.

_______________________________________
BTW, @Milburn Stone, I have a picture of my late father that looks a Lot like your profile photo.

Edited February 21, 2019 by shapeshifter

[Gobi]

55 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I think Roland is pretty necessary to the story as it is. It would have been boring as sin to watch someone as introverted as Hays investigate the case by himself. And part of the True Detective formula is cops working as a team and making wisecracks together. I think the contentious friendship between them has done a lot to illuminate the main character.

That said, I'm expecting some sort of betrayal from Roland before the finale is over. Maybe Hays will reveal that he wants to come clean before he dies, so that the world will know exactly what happened...leading Roland to kill him, to avoid a murder charge? That would certainly be dark.

He also shows what happens to someone who "goes along to get along", unlike Hayes. I guess we'll find out this week how far West was willing to "to along".

[12catcrazy]

56 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

That said, I'm expecting some sort of betrayal from Roland before the finale is over. Maybe Hays will reveal that he wants to come clean before he dies, so that the world will know exactly what happened...leading Roland to kill him, to avoid a murder charge? That would certainly be dark.

Yeah, but didn't Roland expect some sort of apology from Hays?  Sounds like Hays may have betrayed Roland at some point.

[Blakeston]

49 minutes ago, 12catcrazy said:

Yeah, but didn't Roland expect some sort of apology from Hays?  Sounds like Hays may have betrayed Roland at some point.

It looked to me like that was because Hays convinced Roland to "aggressively question" Harris on their own, leading to Harris's death.

[Cardie]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

BTW, @Milburn Stone, I have a picture of my late father that looks a Lot like your profile photo.

Did people used to ask your father if he played Doc Adams on Gunsmoke?

5 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Two black one-eyed men running around this little town at the same time!

As one of the characters remarked, lots of maimed people who worked on the Hoyt chicken line.

[Anela]

I'm confused. Was the cousin who was murdered, in Vegas, too? Or was he in town? I don't see how they could be driving back-and-forth between Arkansas and Vegas so fast - it's apparently a 21-hour drive, which is less than I expected. I shouldn't be watching this when I'm tired. I always seem to miss something.

I felt no sympathy whatsoever, for Harris. He participated in kidnapping and hiding a little girl, apparently. Probably murdered the girl's mother, possibly her cousin, too. Covered up the murder or manslaughter of a little boy, pinned it all on a man who was innocent, until he defended himself against a vigilante mob, and the cops. All instead of getting a mentally ill rich woman, some help? He let them pin it on the children's father. Sick POS. No sympathy for him.