S14.E12: Prophet and Loss

[starfishka]

Sigh. I hope Michael will escape as soon as possible and destroy the world. In my opinion, the best scene was the opening one with Dean in the box. I don´t "feel/buy" the BM scenes anymore so the ending scene left no impact on me (or maybe I am a heartless person). Am afraid Sam´s story will be always mostly about Sam and Dean´s story will be always about Sam and Sam´s feelings.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If that was before Dean killed Death, then it was still Dean's decision. And Sam had obviously changed his mind, because he was going along with Dean's plan.

We're way off the episode now so I will just say this: I don't think Sam changed his mind at all. He risked everything on Dean believing in him over Death, but given Dean's lifelong history of acquiescing to Sam's needs and wants, I think it was a pretty calculated risk. And he (Dean) just did it again in this episode.

Edited February 1, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

I love your post @PinkChicken   As contradictory as it sounds a big part of me is actually glad that Sam is so not okay with Dean's fate. I just wish he hadn't used the words he did, like quitting and suicidal. 

And that opening scene is going to haunt me awhile. 

I was wondering, if Michael escaped Dean's cage while inside the box and in the ocean, and knew he would be trapped there for eternity... can an angel kill themself? I seem to recall Cas saying once that he would (can't recall the circumstance but I do recall him saying the words). Would Michael do it? Or would he bide his time in hopes of one day escaping? And if Dean kept him caged long enough to get in the box and then killed himself, would Michael be able to bring him back just to torment him? 

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

can an angel kill themself? I seem to recall Cas saying once that he would (can't recall the circumstance but I do recall him saying the words).

Sure, they can stab themselves with their blade.  So, if they don't stick the blade in the box, no.  And, I would think he would have to be in Dean to do it, because you probably can't stab wave lengths.

 

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And if Dean kept him caged long enough to get in the box and then killed himself, would Michael be able to bring him back just to torment him? 

Most definitely.

[Cambion]

So I've watched the ep three times now.  Frankly, with exception of intrusive Nick storyline, it's gotten better every time.  

 

Things I noticed:

 

-- I know the boys want more time off, but time off for J2 doesn't have to equal Nick stories.  Bringing him to Mary about Abraxas was a reach to get him back with the main storyline, but really didn't have anything else to offer.  Besides, the fingerprinting scene made Donna look dumb.  (Not my D-Train!!)

 

-- Loved how Sam was teary eyes several times and loved the way he grabbed Dean at the end.  (JarPad NAILED it!!) He said to Mary last ep that it was weird that Dean hugged him because it wasn't something they normally do.  But I think Sam is so scared about losing his brother (again) that he just needed to touch him.  Keep Dean solid and real to Sam.  So, not being huggers, he hit Dean.  First, several times backhanded in the chest, then the right roundhouse, and when Dean grabbed Sam to stop him, Sam hugged Dean like he was wanting to do.  (But, I'm a sentimentalist and have recently read h/c fanfic so feel free to disregard me.)

 

-- It has occurred to me that Billie might not be telling the whole truth.  Every action and decision we make can change the future, for us and for others.  I think that despite her best efforts, Billie does care about the boys and perhaps she gave Dean the book that would spur him into making decisions that would alter the future and open up other possible solutions to the Michael problem.  (This is probably too intricate a plot line for the writers, but hey...)

 

-- Thanks Jensen.  I really don't need any more nightmares.  My own are terrifying enough.  Now I get add water dripping, magically bound so I can't get out, into my claustrophobic, stuck in the broken, wildly careening elevator nightmare.  So, yeah, thanks man.  But srsly amazing job.  Just frickin' AMAZING.

[BabySpinach]

I'm still mulling over that last scene and trying to collect my thoughts as to why I didn't much mind Sam's outburst of violence and self-centeredness for once. A lot of the people I follow on Tumblr, with whom I usually agree on most things SPN, have been very hard on Sam for this. Their interpretations are sound and make sense, yet I still don't personally feel that Sam was particularly irredeemable here.

Sam's motivation for this outburst was more understandable than the majority of his less sympathetic moments have been in the past. Of course he doesn't want to bury his brother alive with a furious archangel for all eternity. Of course his desperation would only grow and fester upon continuous exposure to Dean's steely resolve. Directing that rage and helplessness at Dean made psychological sense, even though it was wrong to do so.

Dean has also socked Sam out of anger in the past, and I never gave much thought to it then, either. This behavior is obviously not healthy or worth emulating, but it makes sense in the context of their upbringing and their lives. If screwed-up dynamics such as these happen to integrate well with the characters and story, their moral defensibility matters less to me. Besides, no lingering physical damage has ever been inflicted and neither of the brothers exhibit any behavioral patterns that may have originated from these infrequent occurrences.

It was clearly not Sam's punch that prompted Dean to come around. That was just a symptom of Sam's distress, not the catalyst needed to change Dean's state of mind. He also looked more disbelieving than hurt when Sam swung at him. The credit for this probably goes more to the acting than the writing.

Sam was being a self-centered ass, but he was also a complete emotional wreck. He wasn't lecturing Dean from a high horse, but basically word-vomiting whatever he could think of to get Dean to change his mind. The delivery and emotions involved made all the difference to me, and I could more easily accept Sam's deeply flawed approach for what it was. I didn't feel like I was being spoonfed an interpretation that the writers specifically wanted to impart ie. wise, sage-like Sam vs. stupid, oblivious Dean. In fact, Dean came off looking a lot more mature and level-headed than Sam did. Probably another credit to the acting rather than the writing, though.

But, most importantly, Dean wasn't brought down a peg and made to apologize or shit-talk himself. He got to stick to his guns, agreeing only to a delay of his plan for Sam and Cas' sake. He didn't self-flagellate for not being considerate enough of others' feelings. That's what really prevented the scene (and the whole episode) from leaving a sour taste in my mouth. Endings define and contextualize everything that came before them, and I thought this episode's ending was genuinely good and avoided several easy pitfalls. Certainly could have been a lot worse in Berens' hands, for instance. Eek!

Last thing: Jensen was luminous in this episode. He infused Dean with a profound melancholy and gentle tragedy which strikingly contrasted with his steely, unapologetic certainty whenever someone tried to bitch at him over his "suicidal" plan. I was explicit in my distaste for Dean's eternal role as the supportive one whose feelings always came last, but I can't deny that it was still deeply moving to watch. Despite the horrible fate that awaited him, he was committed and steadfast. He generously allowed Sam and Cas to each have their say without taking it personally, made (unnecessary) amends for Sam's childhood, and considered Donatello's revival a good note to go out on. Dean accepted his fate with far more dignity and grace than his terrible circumstances deserved. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by BabySpinach

[S Cook Productions]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I love your post @PinkChicken   As contradictory as it sounds a big part of me is actually glad that Sam is so not okay with Dean's fate. I just wish he hadn't used the words he did, like quitting and suicidal. 

And that opening scene is going to haunt me awhile. 

I was wondering, if Michael escaped Dean's cage while inside the box and in the ocean, and knew he would be trapped there for eternity... can an angel kill themself? I seem to recall Cas saying once that he would (can't recall the circumstance but I do recall him saying the words). Would Michael do it? Or would he bide his time in hopes of one day escaping? And if Dean kept him caged long enough to get in the box and then killed himself, would Michael be able to bring him back just to torment him? 

Cas said in season 8 ep, Hunter Heroci, that he was afraid if he went back to heaven and really saw what he had done that he might kill himself. Dean was about to reply to that when Sam walked in and they both turned off the emotion, and it wasn’t really much addressed (at least directly, I don’t think) again. Darn you, Sam! Lol. 

[Wynne88]

Do we know if Sam or Castiel have had the opportunity to see Billie's book?  I remember Dean asking Billie:  'What am I supposed to do with this?' after he looked at it.  So what was 'this'?  The sigils on the box?  If it said specifically: 'Trap Michael inside your head, then build a box with these sigils, get inside, and have it dropped in the sea," then I don't think Dean would have been so bewildered.  I believe that the box and his proposed sacrifice are his interpretation of what the book indicated, but that doesn't mean it's the right or only one.

[Myrelle]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Probably gonna be a big unpopular opinion, but that was a disjointed mess IMO.

I loved the opening scene with Dean and I honestly don't remember Dean's face EVER looking like that before. It was beautiful and awful at the same time.  I enjoyed most of the acting between Dean, Sam and Cas.  But that's about it.

I just am so fucking tired of the 100% incorrect assumption/presumption/narrative being put forth via Sam and Cas that Dean is committing suicide. He made the first sacrifice in s13 to save his loved ones, and THE universe from Lucifer which is being continually ignored to promote this, "Always Keep Fighting" message.  Yeah, I see that here 100%. And it's misplaced. This implies that Dean WANTS to die and no longer wants to live.  This isn't the case. I think that was more or less resolved last season. It's pretty clear he's scared just like he was when he was running out of time in s3.  IMO, the difference this time is that Dean already knows according to Billie what will happen if he doesn't do this.  

And yet, despite Sam's outburst and drunken punch on Dean, IMO, it clearly isn't going to change the outcome, based on Dean's face. He's placating them IMO but has no intention of not going through with it.

I'd probably give this one a B, Catrox-with the option of changing it to an A if the writing of future episodes don't turn the BM at the end into something less than I saw it as in this one.

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I am so fucking tired of the "dumb, stubborn Dean needs sense literally beaten into him" trope, as if he were self-sacrificing just for kicks. This is also a prevalent attitude in fandom, that poor stupid Dean is always looking for an excuse to sacrifice himself and is therefore too oblivious to look for other options. Extreme condescension aside, it's also blatantly untrue. Dean is almost always forced into these "choices," with no other feasible options available to him, and to drag him for it by either yelling at him (in-story) or making fun of him for being "dramatic" (in fandom) severely belittles his actual courage and selflessness. I did like how Jensen chose to play Dean not as fully relenting, but resigned. He'll let Sam and Cas do their best, but he isn't exactly betting on them.

I don't remember the last time Sam or Cas were beaten up/berated over wanting to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Sam got all the hero worship and "gotta let you grow up" support from Dean in season 5 for a much dumber and riskier plan, but when it's Dean, he's "giving up" rather than being heroic. His impending eternity of torment with Michael means shit; Sam and Cas are upset, damn it! God forbid they put their own feelings aside for a bit and treat the man who's pretty much condemning himself to Hell with a little empathy and compassion. This has been a long-standing trope since season 3. 

Yet despite all that, I somehow really enjoyed that final scene. It was intense, uncomfortable, and raw, and Jared got to play an extreme emotional state for once. While punching Dean didn't make Sam look good, it did feel like a genuine, flawed human reaction, like when Dean punched Sam in 2.03. It wasn't about right or wrong, it was about emotions and catharsis. I liked the scene on its own, though not so much the broader implication that Dean just needed a good smack to get his head on straight. Luckily, Jensen didn't play it that way, which softened the sting a bit. 

The positives: Dean didn't chicken out, he's still planning on the box as the final solution, and Michael is still rattling around in his noggin rather than conveniently dumped through a rushed plot contrivance. Jensen's acting was as incredible as always, and I give props to Jared this week as well. I'm impressed by how the central mytharc has developed into something very personal to the main characters from its generic Big Bad + Nameless Army roots, and that it is still maintaining that well-setup narrative tension from 14.10. Despite my thoroughly verbalized complaints above, I'm really am enjoying this season a lot more than I did 12 and 13.

Nice post, as always, Babyspinach

12 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree that in the final scene Sam came across more child-like in his appeal - maybe the tipsiness added to that - and Dean more the weary adult. He gave in to Sam and Cas and gave them more time because right now he thinks he can. It`s a struggle to keep Michael contained but right now Dean is still more in charge than not. 

The entire problem of the situation is that IMO not even Dean can know when the door breaks down. It will be too sudden for him to have forewarning or to do something about it. That`s why he wanted to do the box thing now. Since he can`t go "okay, I can hold it together for 6 more weeks, we have that" or something like that.

And he is oviously not quitting because he has to fight every second of every day to keep an archangel contained. I liked that he spoke calmly but he laid down the law on when it was absolutely unavoidable, the plan would have to go through. And Sam and Cas could not argue against that anymore because what would that argument be?

Seeing as Cas has a recent secret deal going on with the Empty-Keeper, I actually found him to be pretty hypocritical during this episode. Especially in the "don`t compare your plan to what I did to Donatello because I had no choice" thing. Excuse me? Saving the world from Michael is a lot more justified than that Donatello stunt so cram your moral righteousness complex here. 

The punch itself didn`t really bother me because it was pretty weak. Dean had more of a "what the hell" reaction to it. 

Something I will say for the ep outside of the current storyline and just working the case, I liked that both brothers came across relatively knowledgable and competent and it was a pretty practical teamwork. So why the hell isn`t it like that all the time?   

Your thoughts mirror mine pretty well yet again, Aeryn-especially the bolded ones.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

Even better was how they each understood how the OTHERS were feeling.   Such depth of insight they all have!   

I can't agree with this at all, tbh. I don't think that either Cas or Sam is aware of how hard it's been for Dean to keep Michael in check or the toll that it's taking on him in order to do so; and I'll even add that, surprisingly, I think the writing of this one did, in fact, reinforce that thought/idea. And this, from Buck-Lemming. Go figure.

7 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Exactly.  Personally I don't care about the punch beyond the hypocrisy of the treatment Sam's punches vs Dean's.  I never cared because these guys grew up sparring and training together, they are highly physically trained individuals, a little punch here and there under mental duress really isn't anything IMO to either one of them. 

But what Sam said?  That's another story and more importantly Sam once again making it all about himself.  

How come it's never time to treat Dean well?  Why is it that no one is EVER expected to put Dean first at times like this?  Why is it that Dean is always expected to just "understand"?  This is more of the same.  It's always fine to insult and belittle Dean because "Dean can take it"?  And people in the show are far meaner to Dean than they are to anyone else, IMO.  

That is wrong, IMO.  Someone being able to "take it" doesn't mean it should be done and that the other characters shouldn't be called out on it.  Sam was wrong in what he said, wrong in what he did and he was behaving in an incredibly selfish, childish, self-centered manner and he's just making it that much harder for Dean and all he's showing is that Dean CANNOT count on him for emotional support when he really needs to.  This episodes showed that Dean is alone, again.  Not physically but emotionally.   

He's doing it for them because he understands but frankly Dean shouldn't even be being put in that position by them, where he has to put them and their feelings ahead of his own, again.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The characters can only speak the words written on the page, and I agree that suicidal was the wrong word to use in the context of this storyline.  Dean wasn't suicidal.  He was self-sacrificing.  He was willing to take on the burden of an eternity of God only knows what for the sake of the people he loves and the rest of the world.  This absolutely was a noble gesture.  And he's still perfectly willing to do it, if it comes to that.  But I have no issue whatsoever with both Sam and Cas using whatever manipulative language or behavior they needed to in order to get Dean to change his mind, even if only temporarily.  They've bought themselves some more time to find another way.  And since their backs have been up against this same wall numerous times in the past, I can't blame them for thinking they could find another way to fix this problem too.  It's yet to be seen what happens, but I think their behavior was totally in character for all of them.  And they've each been in Dean's place in the past, and had to be convinced to try something else.  Cas' turn is going to come at some point, due to his deal with the Empty Keeper.  And round and round we go.

 

10 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I do because it's completely disrespectful to Dean to emotionally blackmail and to put him down in order to get him to listen to do what they want.  Hell I'd rather have them lie to him and go behind his back than make him feel worse about himself because that crap matters, that doesn't get taken back, that continues to affect Dean long after the current situation is "fixed".

So does lying and sneaking around, because that puts the effect right where it should be, on Dean's trust of Cas and Sam but at least Dean doesn't get call stupid by people he cares about and treated like he somehow doesn't know any better and doesn't even know his own mind.

Dean's not the one in the wrong here, Dean's not the one being weak and Dean's not the one being selfish.  They need to stop projecting their own problems into Dean.

I love your passion in defense of Dean and his feelings, Tessa! Stay strong!

 

10 hours ago, SueB said:

- Turns out Dean was right, Sammy IS the one to talk him out of it — temporarily.

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Honestly, all this scene was to me is Dean doing what Dean does, again and some more: taking care of Sam. No matter what his own personal feelings and needs are, he stuffs them down and acquiesces to Sam needs. The prime directive is so deeply ingrained in him, it's near on impossible to ignore.

ITA, gonzosgirrl. And as for your last sentence, I feel that this is one of the saddest aspects of Dean's life. In fact, it's so sad, that it's become too hard for me to watch, tbh. 

4 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I can't even say how much I agree with this post.

I've enjoyed the last 3 eps more consistently than I've enjoyed the show in a loong time. They did a good job of showing where Sam was coming from & Jared did a good job, so I'm also wondering if half my hangups are more about how I know parts of fandom like to take content like this ep, rather than my own impression directly from the screen. 

It was effectively Sam and Castiel asking for more time to find a solution that they didn't currently have - something which is an understandable and emotional narrative no matter how you play it, and there are so many ways they could have, that I can't help but hate that we always end up at stupid suicidal Dean who needs some sense knocked into him. 

Deans plan makes perfect sense, and it IS currently the only option to protect the world from Michael. He explains as much multiple times (I'm actually giving this ep huge bonus points in my book, because they actually did give Dean a chance to state his position and it isn't only Sam dictating it back to him). The discussions about whether or not his own suicidal "martyr thing" (as Billie called it) comes into it are completely moot, because it isn't a choice at this point. As if the opening scene wasn't clear enough on how much Dean doesn't want to do this (and the fact that someone else said earlier, that a potentially immortal eternity locked up with Michael is decidedly not any kind of 'end' and doesn't track with suicide, and Sam says as much as well, [hes not stupid either, just in denial]), has Sam considered how much harder it will be if Michael gets out and he has to put Dean(s body) into the box literally kicking and screaming - and then drive all the way to the ocean listening to it. 

They were the opposite of supportive this episode, even in the context of changing his mind, so much so that now I'm wondering if we will have Dean slowly losing it over the season and eventually go behind their backs later when he actually does decide its the last possible moment, and then the deception can also be framed as 'wrong'. 

 

Jensen was consistently amazing in this episode. The opener was awful, & idk just something about how he decided to say "I need you to promise me" was my fave part of the end.

Sam will not have the chance to to put Dean's body in the box if Michael gets out. He will be toast, as will the rest of the world. That's the big problem with waiting and Dean knows this even while his loved ones remain in denial.

 

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I love your post @PinkChicken   As contradictory as it sounds a big part of me is actually glad that Sam is so not okay with Dean's fate. I just wish he hadn't used the words he did, like quitting and suicidal. 

 

Yup. Me too.

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm still mulling over that last scene and trying to collect my thoughts as to why I didn't much mind Sam's outburst of violence and self-centeredness for once. A lot of the people I follow on Tumblr, with whom I usually agree on most things SPN, have been very hard on Sam for this. Their interpretations are sound and make sense, yet I still don't personally feel that Sam was particularly irredeemable here.

Sam's motivation for this outburst was more understandable than the majority of his less sympathetic moments have been in the past. Of course he doesn't want to bury his brother alive with a furious archangel for all eternity. Of course his desperation would only grow and fester upon continuous exposure to Dean's steely resolve. Directing that rage and helplessness at Dean made psychological sense, even though it was wrong to do so.

Dean has also socked Sam out of anger in the past, and I never gave much thought to it then, either. This behavior is obviously not healthy or worth emulating, but it makes sense in the context of their upbringing and their lives. If screwed-up dynamics such as these at least fit well within the characters and story, their moral defensibility matters less to me. Besides, no lingering physical damage has ever been inflicted and neither of the brothers exhibit any behavioral patterns that were rooted in these infrequent occurrences.

It was clearly not Sam's punch that prompted Dean to come around. That was just a symptom of Sam's distress, not the catalyst needed to change Dean's state of mind. He also looked more disbelieving than hurt when Sam swung at him. The credit for this probably goes more to the acting than the writing.

Sam was being a self-centered ass, but he was also a complete emotional wreck. He wasn't lecturing Dean from a high horse, but basically word-vomiting whatever he could think of to get Dean to change his mind. The delivery and emotions involved made all the difference to me, and I could more easily accept Sam's deeply flawed approach for what it was. I didn't feel like I was being spoonfed an interpretation that the writers specifically wanted to impart ie. wise, sage-like Sam vs. stupid, oblivious Dean. In fact, Dean came off looking a lot more mature and level-headed than Sam did. Probably another credit to the acting rather than the writing.

But, most importantly, Dean wasn't brought down a peg and made to apologize or shit-talk himself. He got to stick to his guns, agreeing only to delay his plan for Sam and Cas' sake. He didn't self-flagellate for not being considerate enough of others' feelings. That's what really prevented the scene (and the whole episode) from leaving a sour taste in my mouth. An ending defines and contextualizes everything that came before it, and I thought this episode's ending was genuinely good. Certainly could have been a lot worse in Berens' hands, for instance. Eek!

Last thing: Jensen was luminous in this episode. He infused Dean with a profound melancholy and gentle tragedy which strikingly contrasted with a steely, immovable certainty whenever someone tried to bitch at him over his "suicidal" plan. I was explicit in my distaste for Dean's eternal role as the supportive one whose feelings always came last, but I can't deny that it was still deeply moving to watch. Despite the horrible fate that awaited him, he was committed and steadfast. He generously allowed Sam and Cas to each have their say without taking it personally, made (unnecessary) amends for Sam's childhood, and considered Donatello's revival a good note to go out on. Dean accepted his fate with far more dignity and grace than his terrible circumstances deserved. 

 

Another great post, Babyspinach. And the bolded part is the sole reason that I'm still watching this show.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

While on the one hand that can drive me up walls, on the other I`ve always seen it as Dean is the adult/leader/rock and that`s why there is this discrepancy. That makes the character appear far stronger to me than I think the writers mean for him to be. It is different whenever he interacts with characters who view him more as a peer. Those interactions are different. 

In this episode, apart from Cas`s utter hypocracy in the hospital scene, it didn`t bother me overly much. I`m really not one for the "brother moments" anymore and stuff like the final scene of Sacrifice make me want to claw my eyes out for its content. In comparism I found this one here to be relatively well-written in terms of dialogue and certainly well-acted by everyone involved. It also wasn`t so terribly one-sided where Dean`s side of the argument is given no merit. He got to say "okay, I`ll give you as long as I can but when it is unavoidable, you gotta be reasonable about it". 

If we have to have such scenes in the show (and there will never not be), then I`d rather have them like this than others we`ve had on the show. 

For a Bucklemming episode, this was surprisingly okay. The most WTF was the Nick storyline that just will not end. He wants Lucifer back, I get it already. Though honestly, I don`t understand why. He wants the pain to stop? He can do that by ending his life or maybe he is aware that he would be hellbound at this point. But what does being worn by Lucifer give him, Nick? I figure at best he is half-asleep while Lucy is in control. And of course nice bit of ultra-selfishness to want to unleash Lucy on the world again.

I still don`t see that at all as a mirror storyline for Dean, apart from the very superficial "one wants to be an archangel vessel, the other does not", there is nothing there. And that comparism is so flimsy, it is not storyline material.  

The prophet case seemed to honestly just rather weird and random. Now that had some anvillious messaging there with "younger" brother griefing and Donatello pulling through. That was pretty clumsy but the actual case-work was done very well IMO so I liked that. 

For a Season that started out with no real Michael!Dean, superleader!Sam pimpage, the 1001 ones how Jack is nougat, Kaia!Sue belittling Dean all over the place and  Nickifer of boredom, I do believe this Season took a turn for the better so far. Only Nickifer of boredom is still so extremely prevalent but I do enjoy the Dean stuff right now. Maybe my standards are low but I remember stuff like 8.B and 12.B so to a degree, I take what I can get.   

 

I don't disagree that this wasn't so bad, but it's still par for the course and it's way past time for the show to stop it.  If in this case it wasn't as egregious as in some others, even if was an OK use of the this particular show related trope.  This wasn't that bad but the thing is its still part of pretty much the same pattern and same response "oh Dean can take it".  He can, Dean IS strong and he's adult and he's empathetic and I love him for it, but IMO that doesn't mean the characters doing it to him should get a pass and an 'oh poor baby', for once again making it all about themselves and their feelings and putting it on Dean  to comfort them when they should be comforting HIM. 

They are all big boys and should all be able to take it but somehow none of the rest of them are made to and it's never really acknowledged within the show.  Sure they kind of gave Dean "equal say" this time by extracting the promise to put him in that box when the time comes but IMO Sam and Cas are still being selfish in their reactions and only putting more pressure on Dean.  The show should call them out on it in some way.  In fact the show should have some OTHER character call them out on it because apparently a third party is the only way it's given any serious consideration.  Make them feel bad for it, because they should feel bad for it. 

Dean's strong for them, but he shouldn't have to be, it shouldn't be expected of him, which it is and if he isn't he is the one who is generally criticized for something that shouldn't be expected of him in the first place, and they sure as heck shouldn't characterize it as "stupid", "quitting" no matter how desperate or upset they are.  Because no matter how far Dean has come, no matter how much growth he's made, those are loaded words, not just random ones pulled out of desperation, they are purposely manipulative.  Just because Dean's grown enough to see through it(so it seems) doesn't mean they should get a pass and pat on the back and all the sympathy for their feelings when they use them.  

Edited February 2, 2019 by tessathereaper

[tessathereaper]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

how is Sam - who already has his own shit going on due to this thing he's not ready to face and wants a chance to try to "fix" - supposed to know when Dean is going to be making a decision based on self-esteem issues or not? The plot gives Dean self-esteem issues when it suits the purpose or mood - like "Advanced Thanatology" - but then gives Dean confidence and self-preservation/whatever whenever that suits the mood - like this episode. Did something significant happen between "Advanced Thanatology" and now that would make Dean change his mind about himself?*** Good question, in my opinion, and how is Sam supposed to know which Dean is going to show up? Is it MoC Dean or Amarra soul-bomb Dean or is it make a crossroads deal Dean? Sure Sam could listen to Dean's words, but they can both be lying liars who lie about stuff like that, and Sam has heard - and himself said - "I'm fine" and "what other choice did I have" a lot when they both know the other didn't mean it or it wasn't true.

You know what?  IMO it doesn't matter.  Sam should respect Dean's wishes in any case especially in this case because this is a case where it can literally go to hell in an instant if Michael manages to break out.  This is about saving, well basically saving the universe because Michael wants to destroy all the worlds.  They literally don't have any other choices now and frankly they really can't just dilly dally about "well let's take more time" because that door could bust open at any minute and it's pretty much game over.

Dean having self-esteem issues doesn't mean his thoughts and ideas and wishes should be disregarded and constantly questioned because that isn't how it works. Self esteem issues doesn't mean suicidal, Dean has rarely ever been suicidal IMO. Not being particularly worried about dying even looking at it as a relief isn't the same thing as suicidal, Dean will likely always have self-esteem issues it's one of the reasons severe parentification of the sort Dean suffered is considered to be a particularly heinous form of abuse, it's literally practically hard-wired into the person's brain.  That doesn't mean you get to disregard everything with "well you just want to kill yourself, you're a quitter!" 

In fact I don't think that's what Advanced Thanotology was about either, Dean was questioning the meaning of what they were doing, in Sam's presence, not wishing for death.  That isn't suicidal, that would seem to be a pretty natural thing to do once in a while esp if going through a tough time as Dean was.  He was upset, he was grief stricken, he was questioning and lacked hope.  Even with Billie, which Sam wouldn't know about the details,  Dean was like if it's my time, it's my time, he was there doing his job, if he happened to die doing it, so be it.  It was more complex than "Dean's suicidal".  Difference situations are always going to get different reactions and different motivations from people, why should Dean be any different? 

If Sam can't tell the difference, maybe Sam should try paying more attention to his brother and context rather than constantly trying to keep him in a box which allows him to easily disregard Dean's thoughts and feelings as a result of the traumas he's been through.

*** Does anyone know how to add a quote to an already posted reply? I wanted to add this to my previous reply rather than adding a new post but I don't know how, it won't let me copy it(I mean I can copy it and manually make it a quote but then it doesn't reference the name of the poster being quoted?  

 

For what it's worth I don't think Billie is lying or making stuff up and I don't think the book was cryptic.  I think Dean said "What am I supposed to do with this" because well he was reading about his own death in a horrible way.  Even if Michael kept him alive just to torture him mentally for centuries, most likely he'd eventually die so that is what would be in the book.

In fact I think it was precisely because Dean does NOT give up and always keeps fighting that he said it, because there he was faced directly with it.  "Wait a box? the bottom of the ocean?  I die when!" I think that might get a "What am I supposed to do with this?"

 

ETA and with regards to the whole releasing Amara thing - IMO I'm not really sure the issue is?  Death died, a new Death took his place.  Yes it was risky and they didn't know the consequences but that has literally nothing to do with Amara and the Darkness being released who was the big bad of the next season.  No Dean shouldn't have killed OG Death to save Sam, but then again Death shouldn't have made that part of the bargain, surely he could have come up with some other way to keep Sam from being able to rescue Dean from outer space(Damn I really want that show, because you just know some space inhabitants would crashland on his planet or something and what not, Deean in Spaaaace! :) ).  None the less Dean did it, without knowing exactly what would happen, but it had nothing to do with what actually DID happen.  The only thing it did was get a brief zombie outbreak and Billie as the new Death.

What is it we are trying to blame Dean for here?  The spell to release her was happening whether Death lived or died and whether Sam lived or died.  Because Sam did not do what he should have done, which is to say as soon as heard what the Mark really was - he should have said "whoa hold up, gotta make a call" and been honest about what they were attempting to do. 

In fact if he'd done that - Amara wouldn't have been released, the Empty wouldn't have come into play, original Death most likely wouldn't have died and frankly Sam wouldn't even have ever had to kneel and "accept his fate". 

That is one Sam and Castiel alone, IMO.  Dean has no share in it. At worst Dean would have still been walking around with the Mark of Cain, possibly occasionally getting a little overly violent when killing bad guys. Or he'd die and become a demon again which is still better than what did happen and what is happening now in terms of the fate of the world. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by tessathereaper

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

What is it we are trying to blame Dean for here?  The spell to release her was happening whether Death lived or died and whether Sam lived or died.  Because Sam did not do what he should have done, which is to say as soon as heard what the Mark really was - he should have said "whoa hold up, gotta make a call" and been honest about what they were attempting to do. 

In fact if he'd done that - Amara wouldn't have been released, the Empty wouldn't have come into play, original Death most likely wouldn't have died and frankly Sam wouldn't even have ever had to kneel and "accept his fate". 

That is one Sam and Castiel alone, IMO.  Dean has no share in it. At worst Dean would have still been walking around with the Mark of Cain, possibly occasionally getting a little overly violent when killing bad guys. Or he'd die and become a demon again which is still better than what did happen and what is happening now in terms of the fate of the world. 

Taking to "Bitch vs Jerk"

[juppschmitz]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it was a pretty calculated risk.

This so so much. I mean, come on, Sam gave Dean the ultimate puppy dog eye routine. He must have been preeettyyy sure it'd work. Like it always does. (And oh, look, this last episode - worked like a charm.) What Sammy wants, Sammy gets.

[juppschmitz]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or would he bide his time in hopes of one day escaping?

Well, he does think in eons, so the time in the box will likely only be a blip.

[gonzosgirrl]

54 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Well, he does think in eons, so the time in the box will likely only be a blip.

True that. The thing I keep getting stuck on though, is Billie's books are records of death. To me that indicates an end date, not eternal torment locked in a box. Unless his body is dead and it's his soul that is trapped in underwater hell? 

[AwesomO4000]

58 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

This so so much. I mean, come on, Sam gave Dean the ultimate puppy dog eye routine. He must have been preeettyyy sure it'd work. Like it always does. (And oh, look, this last episode - worked like a charm.) What Sammy wants, Sammy gets.

And yet Sam seemed extremely surprised that Dean didn't go through with it... And the fighting they had done earlier - with Dean seriously going at him - should've put a question in Sam's mind. He also thought that Dean was under the influence of the mark and even said a few times that Dean wasn't himself. Dean previously under that influence had told Sam that he should have been dead instead of Charlie - not exactly a comforting or encouraging thing. In my opinion, I doubt Sam had any conviction at all that it would work. His bloody face and puppy dog eyes were getting eye rolls and annoyed looks from Dean, so Sam more seemed to think he was going to die, especially when he closed his eyes.

My opinion on that...

This episode, much different. I think Sam was counting on his words and emotions working. And Dean was Dean. Michael doesn't have the influence that the mark did.

[trudysmom]

18 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I just don't know why they think it's adding to the show. 

Because these writer have a  perpetual crush on Pellegrino and since Dean has Archangel Michael, they have to keep his brother in play too. While I get that, and can see where they might be going down the road later, (and hate it, btw) I also think they  expect us to feel some similar empathy for Nickifer and his suffering.  But I don't.  I can appreciate MP's performance, on occasion, but it's beating the dead horse at this point.  You wanna be bad, you like being bad, but you can't be as bad as you want without your buddy Lucifer, and you can't find him. I get it already.

 

18 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The prime directive is so deeply ingrained in him, it's near on impossible to ignore.

Huh, love this so much!  It's so true.  

While it kind of makes me sad that there is a lot of disagreement about the characters and their motivations this episode,  it's also good to know that so many people still feel strongly passionate about the show 14 years in.  It's has it's flaws for sure (writers) but despite missing a few things about it that I fell in love with early on (classic rock) it's stayed true to it's mission statement, saving people, hunting things.  I'm glad it was renewed for another season, but at the same time I have less and less faith in the writers to bring it to an end when that time comes in a way that honors all that's gone before.  They are writing it into a corner that I don't see a good way out of.  I know they can't/won't please everyone, they have to "go where the story takes them" or whatever.  If  that story took them to making this episode relative later on, the Enochian writing, the gratuitous torture, the re-set for Donatello, then I might have a bit more faith in them. Sadly, I think what they will call back to will be the brothers at odds, again.  They'll show that punch again and again, in previouslies to ram home some point about who was right or wrong.  

[Bergamot]

17 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

It was effectively Sam and Castiel asking for more time to find a solution that they didn't currently have - something which is an understandable and emotional narrative no matter how you play it, and there are so many ways they could have, that I can't help but hate that we always end up at stupid suicidal Dean who needs some sense knocked into him. 

Deans plan makes perfect sense, and it IS currently the only option to protect the world from Michael. He explains as much multiple times (I'm actually giving this ep huge bonus points in my book, because they actually did give Dean a chance to state his position and it isn't only Sam dictating it back to him).

Yes! At the end of "Damaged Goods", Dean told Sam that he wouldn't be talked out of the plan, so Sam could either let him do it alone or he could help him. I don't blame Sam and Cas for still trying to talk him out of it, but did it have to be done that way? Dean had chosen such a hard and lonely path -- couldn't they have tried to turn him aside in a way that, I don't know, maybe wouldn't have necessarily made it easier, but at least made it feel less hard and lonely, rather than more?

 

14 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Sam was being a self-centered ass, but he was also a complete emotional wreck. He wasn't lecturing Dean from a high horse, but basically word-vomiting whatever he could think of to get Dean to change his mind. The delivery and emotions involved made all the difference to me, and I could more easily accept Sam's deeply flawed approach for what it was. I didn't feel like I was being spoonfed an interpretation that the writers specifically wanted to impart ie. wise, sage-like Sam vs. stupid, oblivious Dean. In fact, Dean came off looking a lot more mature and level-headed than Sam did. Probably another credit to the acting rather than the writing, though.

But, most importantly, Dean wasn't brought down a peg and made to apologize or shit-talk himself. He got to stick to his guns, agreeing only to a delay of his plan for Sam and Cas' sake. He didn't self-flagellate for not being considerate enough of others' feelings. That's what really prevented the scene (and the whole episode) from leaving a sour taste in my mouth. Endings define and contextualize everything that came before them, and I thought this episode's ending was genuinely good and avoided several easy pitfalls. Certainly could have been a lot worse in Berens' hands, for instance. Eek!

This does give me a better view of the last scene. (And btw, agreeing with your "eek!" at the thought of what Berens would have done.) Yes, I did not like some of the things Sam came out with, but as you say, he was basically going to pieces at that point and just flinging out anything that he could think of that might work. And also, as you and PinkChicken say, it made all the difference in the world that for once Dean was allowed to respond and unapologetically defend his position so strongly and clearly, not just at the end but throughout the episode. For once, this wasn't about "straightening Dean out" or "teaching Dean a lesson" or otherwise putting Dean in his place. Dean is still committed to doing what he has to do, but he has made a strategic decision that he can hold Michael prisoner a little longer, while Sam and Cas look for other solutions.

It also helps, I have to say, that just a couple episodes ago, it was freely acknowledged by Sam and by Cas and by Jack that Dean is "more than strong", so we know that they all know and admire Dean's inner strength. It's just that in this situation it was that strength, that courage, that "steely resolve" as you call it, BabySpinach, which was the thing that stood in their way, so in their panic and desperation they meanly (in my opinion) tried to re-characterize it as weakness.

 

14 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Last thing: Jensen was luminous in this episode. He infused Dean with a profound melancholy and gentle tragedy which strikingly contrasted with his steely, unapologetic certainty whenever someone tried to bitch at him over his "suicidal" plan. I was explicit in my distaste for Dean's eternal role as the supportive one whose feelings always came last, but I can't deny that it was still deeply moving to watch. Despite the horrible fate that awaited him, he was committed and steadfast. He generously allowed Sam and Cas to each have their say without taking it personally, made (unnecessary) amends for Sam's childhood, and considered Donatello's revival a good note to go out on. Dean accepted his fate with far more dignity and grace than his terrible circumstances deserved. 

 Beautifully said! And yes, you are completely right, it is galling that Dean seems to always be the one whose feelings come last, but seeing this here, seeing the depth of his courage and caring for others -- it gets to me every time.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Bergamot

[juppschmitz]

The ending of this episode made me re-imagine Swan Song:

Sam: It’s ok, Dean, I’ve got him!

Dean: Oh, thank God! Now let’s go back to the motel and think of another solution!

Sam: Ok.

~credits~

Edited February 3, 2019 by juppschmitz

[catrox14]

I've decided that on top of them being afraid of having to figure out how to live and survive without Dean, Sam,  and especially Cas, are projecting some guilt onto Dean for their own parts in all of this, and Cas, for his own secret deal with the Empty Keeper.  I also suspect that Sam has possibly struck his own private deal with someone else that he hasn't bothered to tell Dean nor Cas.

[S Cook Productions]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've decided that on top of them being afraid of having to figure out how to live and survive without Dean, Sam,  and especially Cas, are projecting some guilt onto Dean for their own parts in all of this, and Cas, for his own secret deal with the Empty Keeper.  I also suspect that Sam has possibly struck his own private deal with someone else that he hasn't bothered to tell Dean nor Cas.

All 3 of them WILL always choose to sacrifice themselves over the others, and will probably always neglect to tell the others about it if they can. Lol, it’s like they’ve learned nothing over the years. They rest of us might as well get used to it. 

[MysteryGuest]

28 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

All 3 of them WILL always choose to sacrifice themselves over the others, and will probably always neglect to tell the others about it if they can. Lol, it’s like they’ve learned nothing over the years. They rest of us might as well get used to it. 

Exactly.  If Dean hadn't hugged Sam goodbye, which got Sam's radar pinging, and Mary hadn't stumbled upon Dean's iron coffin, theoretically, Dean would already be locked in his box.  He didn't plan to tell Sam, or Cas, or Mary.  That would kind of suck, and if either Cas or Sam had tried to pull that, Dean would be just as pissed at them as they are at him.  They all do the same thing to each other.

Edited February 2, 2019 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

All 3 of them WILL always choose to sacrifice themselves over the others, and will probably always neglect to tell the others about it if they can. Lol, it’s like they’ve learned nothing over the years. They rest of us might as well get used to it. 

Not sure what you are saying here.  I'm speaking from my opinion about the writing. I'm not one who decides that I need to get used to how a show does something just because, if I think it's OOC or "lore expanding"/LOL canon. 

IMO, since the show does have the characters have subterfuge with one another be it to protect each other, or out of guilt, or fear of reprisal, it's still happening and consequences will show up eventually.  

In this case, my point is that Cas and Sam, were acting far more harshly than typically so, and IMO that harshness is partly because they are projecting their guilt for their shit onto Dean.  Not unlike Dean being accused of doing so in the past by them.

What I consider to be false equivalences with Cas actions with Donatello and him saying it's not the same as Dean's "suicidal" plan is kind of interesting.  And if I thought the writers really were that deep (maybe Steve Yockey is actually), I would think it was purposefully written to show us just how much Dean is the outsider in his family, vs Sam or Cas. 

[BabySpinach]

On 2/2/2019 at 11:55 AM, Bergamot said:

This does give me a better view of the last scene. (And btw, agreeing with your "eek!" at the thought of what Berens would have done.) Yes, I did not like some of the things Sam came out with, but as you say, he was basically going to pieces at that point and just flinging out anything that he could think of that might work. And also, as you and PinkChicken say, it made all the difference in the world that for once Dean was allowed to respond and unapologetically defend his position so strongly and clearly, not just at the end but throughout the episode. For once, this wasn't about "straightening Dean out" or "teaching Dean a lesson" or otherwise putting Dean in his place. Dean is still committed to doing what he has to do, but he has made a strategic decision that he can hold Michael prisoner a little longer, while Sam and Cas look for other solutions.

It also helps, I have to say, that just a couple episodes ago, it was freely acknowledged by Sam and by Cas and by Jack that Dean is "more than strong", so we know that they all know and admire Dean's inner strength. It's just that in this situation it was that strength, that courage, that "steely resolve" as you call it, BabySpinach, which was the thing that stood in their way, so in their panic and desperation they meanly (in my opinion) tried to re-characterize it as weakness.

 

Yup, framing is crucial. Sam could have said and done the exact same things, but if Dean had then apologized for daring to hurt their feelings and letting them down, I would have been MUCH more critical of Sam, Cas, and the writing. For the most part, Sam and Cas' behaviors were allowed to speak for themselves, and felt like a reflection of their flawed characters rather than the writer's specific agenda. Because they weren't confirmed to be 100% right via the typical shamefaced response from Dean, there was more room for analysis into what their harshness and general lack of consideration for him revealed about their own shortcomings. 

It was the polar opposite of 14.03, for instance. Kaia Sue called Dean a weak bully and nothing contradicted her at any point in the story, an out-of-context flashback was used, Dean couldn't remotely defend himself, she got to save all their asses at the end, and so her hypocritical words were actually afforded some merit. If the situation had gone differently, perhaps with Dean proving her wrong through his actions by the end of that episode, I wouldn't have been particularly bothered by what she'd said. My unadulterated rage only ignites when a writer is clearly using the characters as mouthpieces to impose a contrived and unfair message, often to Dean's detriment. Characters can act like assholes as long as their assholery is not framed as totally right and justified. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by BabySpinach

[sarthaz]

Sorry for not reading the thread, but was that the most coherent and self-aware "ghost" we've ever seen ever?

"I've been hanging out here for the last 10 years with nothing to keep me company but memories of my grisly murder and the screams of my baby. But it's cool, because I have a very clear analysis of the entire situation, and now that you're here, this is my big moment to share. Please have a seat while I go get my notes."

Edited February 2, 2019 by sarthaz

[bethy]

Well, I found that surprisingly affecting. I've mostly felt over all the angst of one or the other of the Winchesters sacrificing himself again when, unless Jensen or Jared actually quits the show, it's going to have no lasting impact. But I thought the last scene between Sam and Dean was very nice. I thought Dean looked surprised and maybe amused/proud when Sam punched him. Like he couldn't quite believe Sam had done it. Then his voice cracked when he told Sam he had to promise to put him in the box. Ooph. Plus the little face touch and "Just don't hit me again." Perfect.

Other than that, the torture was too much, and I really don't care about Nick's pain.

Edited February 3, 2019 by bethy

[trudysmom]

23 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Does anyone know how to get rid of an accidentally added quote box like the one above? 😬)

Delete the text, then click on the edge of the box, it will 'highlight' , hit delete.  I do it. All. the. time. 

On second watch I kept being struck by how BIG these guys are.  When they are sitting in the hospital waiting for Cas to fix Donatello, the chairs they are sitting on look like normal chairs, but with them, especially Jared, they look like kiddie furniture.  Lol, he looked so uncomfortable, like his knees were gonna hit his chin. Then in the last scene, maybe it was the camera angle, I got it again when Sam is leaning against Baby and Dean is walking towards him, thinking holy crap those guys are huge.  Baby looked tiny.  I mean I've always known they are tall, over 6 ft, but it struck me this episode like it hasn't in awhile. And I can't get over Cas in this episode.  It's like he's been sleepwalking before and he finally woke up.  He was downright animated.  

[annspal]

On 2/1/2019 at 8:54 PM, Wynne88 said:

Do we know if Sam or Castiel have had the opportunity to see Billie's book?  I remember Dean asking Billie:  'What am I supposed to do with this?' after he looked at it.  So what was 'this'?  The sigils on the box?  If it said specifically: 'Trap Michael inside your head, then build a box with these sigils, get inside, and have it dropped in the sea," then I don't think Dean would have been so bewildered.  I believe that the box and his proposed sacrifice are his interpretation of what the book indicated, but that doesn't mean it's the right or only one.

Exactly. As Billie's handing over the One Book with the resolution that doesn't end with Micheal escaping and ending the world, she's saying that all the others have been re-written due to Winchester actions. I'd assume that there's still room for major revisions in any/all of the "drafts." Let's start thinking "out of the box" about this, boys! (yes, pun intended)

I get that Dean is incredibly strained with holding Michael down (and I'm sure Sam does too since Dean's nightmares have him calling for "Sammy" and leaving literal bloody scratches on the wall). That's all the more reason not to get myopic and married to a single path. Dean has a team who also want the world to survive. I think of Dean especially as the master of improvised strategy, and I hope he can remember to wish for a holocaust cloak as they list their assets.

It can't be accidental that the week's case illustrates (not for the first time) the misinterpretation of even divine messages. It was simply a little easier to swallow in S2;s Houses of the Holy with the dead priest who thought he was an angel prompting the murders of secretly evil people by aimless pawns. I am truly distressed that the "next prophet" guy in this episode ends up committing suicide - with Dean's gun, no less. 

I wished Nick and Sarah had spoken of where Teddy is. I wish she'd been explicit is saying the peace she was being denied was a reunion with their child.  (Good point, sarthaz, about how extraordinarily articulate she was.)

I noticed myself liking Sam's hair more than once in this episode.  I loved that the motel wall had a bridge photo.  I was really uncomfortable at the Impala pulling the coffin-trap-box around. 

14 hours ago, bethy said:

Well, I found that surprisingly affecting. I've mostly felt over all the angst of one or the other of the Winchesters sacrificing himself again when, unless Jensen or Jared actually quits the show, it's going to have no lasting impact. But I thought the last scene between Sam and Dean was very nice. I thought Dean looked surprised and maybe amused/proud when Sam punched him. Like he couldn't quite believe Sam had done it. Then his voice cracked when he told Sam he had to promise to put him in the box. Ooph. Plus the little face touch and "Just don't hit me again." Perfect.

Yes! I am in love with the episode's ending. I was surprised at the reaction they could still get from me. Just excellent.

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, annspal said:

Exactly. As Billie's handing over the One Book with the resolution that doesn't end with Micheal escaping and ending the world, she's saying that all the others have been re-written due to Winchester actions. I'd assume that there's still room for major revisions in any/all of the "drafts." Let's start thinking "out of the box" about this, boys! (yes, pun intended)

I get that Dean is incredibly strained with holding Michael down (and I'm sure Sam does too since Dean's nightmares have him calling for "Sammy" and leaving literal bloody scratches on the wall). That's all the more reason not to get myopic and married to a single path. Dean has a team who also want the world to survive. I think of Dean especially as the master of improvised strategy, and I hope he can remember to wish for a holocaust cloak as they list their assets.

I don't doubt that they can and will rewrite the books (S15 folks), but I believe that Dean in the box is exactly what's in the book she handed him. The moment he slammed the door on Michael in his mind, all the books changed to one outcome, Michael escaping and using Dean's meatsuit to end the world. A thousand books means a thousand things they tried to change it, and nothing worked. Game over. Since there were so many options before - shelf upon shelf of different possibilities, depending on their actions - and they all changed to this one thing, I'd say that's a pretty convincing argument for Dean to do the only option given him.

Honestly, I love that Sam and Cas want to save him, but discounting Billie's books and hoping that Dean can contain a raging archangel for however long it takes them to find another solution is a ridiculously risky bet, when it's the entire universe (and more) they are gambling with.

[MysteryGuest]

Finally able to see the first few minutes of the episode.  Dean's dream was awful, and has always been one of my worst fears.  I'm kind of sorry I watched it now.  And the murder/torture scenes in the beginning were also awful.  Either I'm getting even more squeamish than I used to be, or they've ramped up some of those scenes this season.  

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't doubt that they can and will rewrite the books (S15 folks), but I believe that Dean in the box is exactly what's in the book she handed him. The moment he slammed the door on Michael in his mind, all the books changed to one outcome, Michael escaping and using Dean's meatsuit to end the world. A thousand books means a thousand things they tried to change it, and nothing worked. Game over. Since there were so many options before - shelf upon shelf of different possibilities, depending on their actions - and they all changed to this one thing, I'd say that's a pretty convincing argument for Dean to do the only option given him.

I've been thinking that maybe Billie showed Dean that Sam and Cas will do something to try and save Dean that makes things measurably worse,  if he doesn't execute his plan, which would be even more motivation for Dean to do what he's planning to do.

Or similarly, and this is just speculation on my part (no spoilers here) but what if Sam's fate is shown in Dean's death book and it's worse than what Dean will experience so Dean is taking this action to circumvent Sam's fate.  It would suck out loud yet it would certainly be within Dean's Prime Directive brain to make sure to Save Sammy.  I mean if the show can't even acknowledge textually that Dean was saving the world from a superjuiced Lucifer when he said yes to AU Michael, and seems to be pushing the narrative that was only to Save Sammy....and Jack, then this move and Dean's determination to do it, would be the ultimate manifestation of the Prime Directive. 

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Either I'm getting even more squeamish than I used to be, or they've ramped up some of those scenes this season.  

They've amped up gratuitousness of the torture porn. It was more like Saw or Hostel than Supernatural style horror. I hated it.

Edited February 3, 2019 by catrox14

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

but discounting Billie's books and hoping that Dean can contain a raging archangel for however long it takes them to find another solution is a ridiculously risky bet, when it's the entire universe (and more) they are gambling with.

And AFAIK, Death in any incarnation, has never directly lied or deceived Dean.  He tested him in s6 by making him wear the ring, and Billie made a deal to not let him die in s12. She wouldn't let him die and told him he had work to do.  I think the only question is what did Dean really read in that book that spurred him to be this determined, and like I said, I'm betting it's do with Sam's fate.

[annspal]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The moment he slammed the door on Michael in his mind, all the books changed to one outcome,

Are we sure of this timing? I thought Billie was implying the extensive rewrite was due to the universe-hopping. She is only catching Dean up now that his life has caught up to the (currently) single intersection between all versions?  

[Aeryn13]

While the killings in the episode were a bit more graphic than usual, I didn`t think it was anything really over the top. Stuff like Saw and Hostel is when my gag reflex is triggered and this was comparatively mild. 

Quote

I think the only question is what did Dean really read in that book that spurred him to be this determined, and like I said, I'm betting it's do with Sam's fate.

Since they haven`t turned it into a big mystery or gave any kind of hints that something is afoot, I`ve since come to believe that the book said exactly what Dean said: he ggoes into the box.

The only thing I`m wavering on right now if the episode foreshadows it will happen or it won`t happen. Often, an episode during mid-Season that deals with the mytharc in some way foreshadows the Finale. This episode presented both the nightmare of what could be and the idea that it can be prevented. As Dean said at the end that when their time has run out, he needs them to do then what they can`t do now which is let him go. This might be paid off in the Finale or they will find something else at the last, last second. 

Nickifer`s story still ultimately seems to be heading into bringing back Lucifer and into him. It would be really ironic if Dean (and Michael) went to the bottom of the ocean just as Lucifer comes back for some cockamamie reason. I`d say maybe Nickifer could go to the ocean instead but probably only over Bucklemmings dead bodies. They will never let that character and actor go.

[ILoveReading]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

, I'm betting it's do with Sam's fate.

I really hope not.  Books about Dean's fate should be about Dean. 

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The only thing I`m wavering on right now if the episode foreshadows it will happen or it won`t happen. Often, an episode during mid-Season that deals with the mytharc in some way foreshadows the Finale. This episode presented both the nightmare of what could be and the idea that it can be prevented. As Dean said at the end that when their time has run out, he needs them to do then what they can`t do now which is let him go. This might be paid off in the Finale or they will find something else at the last, last second. 

For me this episode felt too much like Point of No Return.  It fells like Dabb is just basically retelling season 5.  I feel this more than ever with the high potential of Lucifer coming back. 

I'm expecting some lame solution that ends with Sam in the box with both arch angels once again.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since they haven`t turned it into a big mystery or gave any kind of hints that something is afoot, I`ve since come to believe that the book said exactly what Dean said: he ggoes into the box

I agree it says Dean goes in the box. I'm thinking about what motivates Dean to do more than just protecting the world because the show can never let it be just that for Dean.  Not on a big scale.

 

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

While the killings in the episode were a bit more graphic than usual, I didn`t think it was anything really over the top. Stuff like Saw and Hostel is when my gag reflex is triggered and this was comparatively mild. 

Since they haven`t turned it into a big mystery or gave any kind of hints that something is afoot, I`ve since come to believe that the book said exactly what Dean said: he ggoes into the box.

The only thing I`m wavering on right now if the episode foreshadows it will happen or it won`t happen. Often, an episode during mid-Season that deals with the mytharc in some way foreshadows the Finale. This episode presented both the nightmare of what could be and the idea that it can be prevented. As Dean said at the end that when their time has run out, he needs them to do then what they can`t do now which is let him go. This might be paid off in the Finale or they will find something else at the last, last second. 

Nickifer`s story still ultimately seems to be heading into bringing back Lucifer and into him. It would be really ironic if Dean (and Michael) went to the bottom of the ocean just as Lucifer comes back for some cockamamie reason. I`d say maybe Nickifer could go to the ocean instead but probably only over Bucklemmings dead bodies. They will never let that character and actor go.

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I really hope not.  Books about Dean's fate should be about Dean. 

I don't disagree. I could just see it being a thing in the writers' minds is THAT is who Dean really is. That it couldn't just be about Dean saving the world from Michael. 

Maybe Crowlye's warding is what is keeping Nick psychologically and physically attached to Lucifer. I'm also thinking he wouldn't be able to be Michael's vessel given the warding.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I though that Dean backed down to easily.  He should have fought more in an effort to have himself boxed and buried at sea.  More innocent people are bound to die over Dean's decision not to go through with it.

This is why I don't like that end scene.

Once more Dean put Sam ahead of the world, because Sam essentially had a temper tantrum.  It wouldnt' surprise me if the end of the season is another lesson for him to let go of Sam.

Edited February 3, 2019 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I though that Dean backed down to easily.  He should have fought more in an effort to have himself boxed and buried at sea.  More innocent people are bound to die over Dean's decision not to go through with it.

I don't think he backed down so much as placated them for a short time. 

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

For me this episode felt too much like Point of No Return.  It fells like Dabb is just basically retelling season 5.  I feel this more than ever with the high potential of Lucifer coming back. 

I'm expecting some lame solution that ends with Sam in the box with both arch angels once again.

Oh please, say it ain't so!!! I would gag on another replay of "Swan Song". Probably more than gag, I would more than likely delete the series from my DVR.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I though that Dean backed down to easily.  He should have fought more in an effort to have himself boxed and buried at sea.  More innocent people are bound to die over Dean's decision not to go through with it.

Uhhuh. And if he insisted on going through with it, he would have been not only rash and suicidal, he would have committed the bigger sin of not being considerate of Sam's feelings (before selfishly flinging himself into the sea).

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And AFAIK, Death in any incarnation, has never directly lied or deceived Dean.  He tested him in s6 by making him wear the ring, and Billie made a deal to not let him die in s12. She wouldn't let him die and told him he had work to do.  I think the only question is what did Dean really read in that book that spurred him to be this determined, and like I said, I'm betting it's do with Sam's fate.

Unless Dean was lying to Sam, and I don't think he was, he said specifically that "Billie said the only way this thing ends right is 'this is it'" (as he hits the box), and that she gave him the secret recipe. I guess there is room for your speculation, but I honestly don't think they're going there - I think in this case, it's a horse and not a zebra. Besides, if it really were Sam on the line, Dean would already be in the ocean.

ETA: as I was typing this, I realize he used the words 'ends right' - which maybe crack the door for your spec open a little wider. ;)

Edited February 3, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure why everyone's so eager for Dean to get in the box.  I'm as relieved as Sam and Cas are that they've talked him out of it, at least temporarily.  Whether he did it because he could see that Sam couldn't handle it, or because he wants to have hope that they can find another way, or a combination of both, I'm ok with it.  We're only halfway through the season, so he was never going to end up in the box at this point, anyway.  And if he had, they'd have had to instantly find a way to get him out, which would have sort of cheapened the sacrifice.  This way, it's still on the table, if needed, and could be the cliff hanger for next season, or they have the rest of the season to find that other way.  

I think Dean has sacrificed himself enough during his lifetime for people not to question why he might hesitate this time.  If this show were about them making the smart choice over choosing each other, the series would have ended after a few episodes.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, trudysmom said:

Delete the text, then click on the edge of the box, it will 'highlight' , hit delete.  I do it. All. the. time. 

On second watch I kept being struck by how BIG these guys are.  When they are sitting in the hospital waiting for Cas to fix Donatello, the chairs they are sitting on look like normal chairs, but with them, especially Jared, they look like kiddie furniture.  Lol, he looked so uncomfortable, like his knees were gonna hit his chin. Then in the last scene, maybe it was the camera angle, I got it again when Sam is leaning against Baby and Dean is walking towards him, thinking holy crap those guys are huge.  Baby looked tiny.  I mean I've always known they are tall, over 6 ft, but it struck me this episode like it hasn't in awhile. And I can't get over Cas in this episode.  It's like he's been sleepwalking before and he finally woke up.  He was downright animated.  

I have had complaints abut the angles making Jared loom over Jensen so often the past few seasons, but I, too, noticed that both guys looked their size in this episode. Your post also reminded me of this scene between Jensen and Sam Smith last episode. Holy moly, you'd think she's sitting while he's standing, but she's not.

 

[Myrelle]

I watched this one with my friend yesterday and we both loved the scene in the waiting room when Dean tried to tell Sam not to think about what it's like to be trapped inside your own body and Sam responded with "That's easy for you to say.", but this time Dean was allowed by the writing to respond back very calmly "Actually, no it isn't."; and then, it almost looked as if Dean experienced Michael raging inside his head again, but this time sans the flashbacks(we were thinking that that might have been another JA ad lib).

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure why everyone's so eager for Dean to get in the box. 

I don't want him in the box, I just want a satisfying resolution that doesn't involve shifting his story-line over to someone else, or making him appear weak or feckless. And I couldn't agree more that it is not weakness to fear the kind of fate that awaits him should he go through with his plan - but I don't have any faith in the showrunner/writers to not present it that way.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't want him in the box, I just want a satisfying resolution that doesn't involve shifting his story-line over to someone else, or making him appear weak or feckless. And I couldn't agree more that it is not weakness to fear the kind of fate that awaits him should he go through with his plan - but I don't have any faith in the showrunner/writers to not present it that way.

Especially when they clearly presented Donatello as "never giving up" and had Sam verbally compare and contrast it to Dean's choice/decision in this one.

BUT, Donatello's refusal to give up also cost 3 innocent people(I'm including the malformed prophet here) their lives, so there was that, too-although I'm not sure that the writers noticed that little hiccup. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Myrelle

[Res]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't want him in the box, I just want a satisfying resolution that doesn't involve shifting his story-line over to someone else, or making him appear weak or feckless. And I couldn't agree more that it is not weakness to fear the kind of fate that awaits him should he go through with his plan - but I don't have any faith in the showrunner/writers to not present it that way.

This Point exactly! There should've been NO way to remove the MoC at the end of S10 but compelling storyline was sacrificed for soap operaic BM crap and lazy writers. I want the compelling storyline this time as I watch this show for the Supernatural and Dean, NOT for the soap opera it's become. BMs are more crap to me and every time they choose each other or themselves rather than the world, they are diminished as heroes in my eyes considering how many times they are asking others to make similar sacrifices during the seasons. 

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Especially when they clearly presented Donatello as "never giving up" and had Sam verbally compare and contrast it to Dean's choice/decision.

Which was yet another low blow dealt by Sam to an already overwhelm brother that he can not seem to ever sympathize with, except through empty words and gestures, IMHO. But that's more for the B v J thread so I'll stop here.

[juppschmitz]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

this time Dean was allowed by the writing to respond back very calmly "Actually, no it isn't."

This reminded me so much of that time when Sam said Emma wasn't Dean's daughter and Dean replied "Yeah, she really was." 

[ILoveReading]

I personally want Dean to end up in the box, mostly for the acting opportunity it gives Jensen.

Plus, I really want the payoff to the story to be about Dean and I don't see how that happens without him ending up in the box.