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  1. For some reason I mis-read and thought this question was specifically about the later seasons (My brain must've gone "what are you on about Seasons 1-2 are ALL perfect compared to some other seasons") and I was wracking my brains for the names of what I would call the most self-contained or watchable episodes from 11 onwards. I had to pull up the episode lists to remind myself what even happened on a smaller scale. I think a big part of it is just how serialised the later seasons are. They split the characters up a lot more often and there is almost always two plots running at once, messing with the pacing and stopping episodes from standing on their own. To such a degree that the best episodes are the ones those seasons didn't even need or want to get through the larger season plot. Off the bat I thought of Baby, which is one of the few later eps I would put in my top favorites alongside all of the episodes @Aeryn13 has already mentioned (actually your longer list is basically the same as mine if we are talking 100% overall). Season 2 has to be my favourite season while 1-2 and 3-4 are my favourite finales/openings. - Of course they wipe the floor with the following, but compared to the rest of their own season these are my pick of the later episodes: Season 11 has a lot more episodes that can stand on their own actually... Thin Lizzie - mostly your average hunt without too much of the mytharc shoved in our face, gives Sam some rare mention of his hobbies. Just my Imagination - idk its funny and I like it even though its a bit unfair to Dean "she has Sparkles on her face!" Into the mystic - again a good standalone hunt where the mytharc is only barely built on like the old days. Love Hurts - again a standalone hunt, the rock paper scissors, dean makes some pretty entertaining faces, and I just really like Sam's reaction at the end here. Safe House - Solid ep. I loved their workaround to include Rufus and Bobby here, and the birds-eye scene at the table. bro hug at the end. A+ Red Meat - ridiculous that they go from this to head injuries being potentially fatal, to A Heroes Journey, but with the required suspension of belief I love it all the same. After that its less about favorite eps even, and narrows down to favorite scenes or character dynamics, so choosing entire eps is harder: American Nightmare - for standing on its own and being one of the episodes that made this list that actually gives Sam focus (I know I'd list a lot of Dean eps). Regarding Dean - for obvious reasons. Advanced Thanatology - For being one of (imo) the hunt episodes in the later seasons that feel the most like early spn. Maybe it really is the darkness in the house or that little extra time they spend with the mother idk. Scoobynatural - honorable mention for being self contained and fun. only loses some points for hitting on Daphne one too many times for me. Nihilism - less about being a good standalone episode because it is so very mytharc, but it gets so many points from me for finally making me feel like I didn't go through the first half of the season for no reason. puts a lot of things into place. Edit: I now realise that barely any (no?) Castiel made my list. This wasn't on purpose but he usually rocks up for the sole purpose of splitting everyone up into myth arc goose-chases or into tag teams with Jack as the 4th member in these seasons, which usually made me cross that ep out as one that doesn't stand on its own or having weird pacing.
  2. Funnily enough this is the same logic I apply to the original Ben question. I think the intention is that Dean II is supposed to be Sam's son despite their insistence on blurry non-commitment to one outcome, and that there was never any intention for Ben to actually be Deans. But I like to think Ben could be anyway. Its funny that we almost had the two discussions happening at once re: whether Lisa not confirming Dean was the father in the year before season 6 rules it out, and whether or not Dean was truly happy with them -> my point being: as if Lisa wouldn't have also picked up on that. I don't think it has to be a deal breaker (if Ben was Dean's) that she didn't say so in "about a year". Especially if that was a bit less than a year with no anniversary. When he originally asked she didn't expect or even want him to stay. After waiting that long it has become a much bigger thing just because she avoided it, so it makes sense that the active choice to tell him would need some thought and maybe a special date or something to spur her on and bring it up, so I just think its plausible she was holding out for an anniversary, Ben's next birthday, -or even a proposal if she was worried it would tie him down when he really doesn't want to be there & wanted to hear on no uncertain terms that he wanted to stay regardless. -I'm not saying that wouldn't possibly cause a fight irl if someone pulled that, but it is a plausible motivation.
  3. and opened a whole new mystery of how old any photos might be and when he's quarantining or starting filming for The Boys 😂 I was starting to be convinced there hadn't been a plane post because he was already in Canada
  4. yeah, it doesn't seem workable atm but if the show lasts long enough I hope he directs rather than appearing in it so we are spared people comparing and bitching about episode ratings. It would be funny if they brought him in as the dude who killed Gen again though
  5. I knew they swapped out some music, and while some of the repeated advertisement segue bits are gone I think, there are a lot that fade to black and then show the repetition like coming back from a break anyway. Didn't realise they actually changed some bits
  6. Fans have done it for free even. Between them https://supernatural.fandom.com/wiki/Supernatural_Wiki and http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/Supernatural_Wiki not to mention actual wikipedia, its pretty well covered. It might also have a lot of other trivia which isnt "on-screen canon" and bear the risk of being so open source, but tptb don't have to take anything said on there at face value. Its all referenced well enough to episodes that they could pull up the relevant part to double check things they need to be 100% on easy enough. I kinda wish they had had one for one additional reason: because right about now they could be showing us bits of it and we could be comparing them to see what things we have collectively gotten "wrong".
  7. lol 694,000,000 minutes is around 50,000 complete re-watches beginning to end (I see that this is only for one week so it’s not possible to do a full rewatch. Just laughing at the perspective -that’s a lot of minutes)
  8. The main problem with this and how the overall story works out, is that while objectively true, the context and order of events matters. ^ and the false equivalencies rarely work out in Sam's favor, which I have always found perplexing given their efforts to flip the narrative and that Sam is supposed to be call #1. Dean "if thats what it takes" has always put his issues aside in favor of keeping the family together. He says "because we're brothers" as some kind of cure-all because that is how it has always been used against him -not always by Sam, and Sam is apparently oblivious to some of it, but whether he asked or not Sam is the main benefactor. Obviously John did it first, and I would argue his words echo strongly through all of Dean's decisions all the way through to the end of Season 5 before becoming more background character information, then Bobby's boo hoo speech after their fight in season 4 puts that on Dean (despite Bobby's own hypocrisy in a similar situation in season 6 I might add), then Dean is expected to put aside the damage done to their trust in season 5, he didn't blow up or send Sam away until Sam suggested it, and even though he didn't really want to he comes back after just one episode when asked and was shown yet again that Sam needs him, then Dean has to ride in the same car as the dude who let him get turned into a vampire, and after that problem is solved- briefly pretend it never even happened to protect Sam, then Sam threatens to leave if he doesn't put aside purgatory because Dean dared be honest about how that affected him, meanwhile Sam sabotages and takes Dean's other relationships personally. Whether Sam has reasons or excuses for these things is besides my point, because the fact is they had an effect on Dean, and (besides the times Sam walked away or asked him to walk away) he choses Sam every time because they are brothers, and spoken or unspoken, often the 'terms' of making it work involve just getting on with it without "guilting" Sam (even accidentally), giving Sam trust and responsibility regardless of whether it was earned back because that is the nature of their job, and going through the motions long enough for them to regain their old sense of Normal. So of course he feels like this. It isn't fair, and it isn't healthy. But it is what he has always been asked to do, and what they have always done. In a way it would then be fair to expect the same accommodations in return (remembering that initially he did leave, understanding that Sam wanted him gone and needed space, and it was pure chance Garth's case brought them back together in aid of a mutual friend). IMO this isn't Dean not showing remorse, but just angling for more time together to be able to put it right because that's how they have worked through things in the past, whereas their history of splitting has been largely no-contact and if they split to hardly ever talk again how exactly would that 'fix' anything anyway? Sam isn't responsible for John's actions, or Bobby's words, or Deans actions which are the reasons he is pissed. He isn't always the one who drags Dean back in in the scenarios I gave above, but he is surely glad that Dean did and he is aware to some degree what this means to Dean or he wouldn't have pulled the "we can work together or we can be brothers" crap on him. So while Sam's emotions are clearly sympathetic in this scenario it still comes across as hypocritical, because on some level he is aware of just how much "because we're brothers" has worked as a cure-all in his favor thus far. By saying "everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we’re family" he even accidentally mirrors their conversation when they split in Season 5, a split which is pretty quickly and definitively shown to be the wrong decision that Dean has to correct. As far as Osiris goes I don't think that's a real indicator of remorse for either of them because its to skewed for Dean by his own self loathing and guilt, but while we're on the topic of Gadreel I do think it is important to note that Dean never actually says sorry for that, and he says sorry a lot. He gets up to it, but just trails off and doesn't finish the sentence, because while he's sorry Sam got hurt he's not sorry for his actions. It saved Sam's life and while he might like to change the details he probably can't guarantee he wouldn't do it again, how can he be sorry. It has been a long time I made it all the way through 8 & 9 in order & without skipping bits and pieces because it is such a bitchy, dramatic slog to get through imo, so my memory might not be the best. Its pretty evident by this point that they just really suck at having them /show/ remorse and the good intentions to make a change (regardless of if it even makes it into the surface dialogue in the first place) because they are so focused on pushing the boys into the next storyline (and as much as Sam might say some variant of "what we were before was the reason for these issues we shouldn't just go back to that", that is exactly what the writers want). We need them to be over the last drama so that we can throw them into the new one, it makes it heaps easier for all involved if one becomes the catalyst for the next so of course we never really see any real resolution. Instead we get the sweet moments in between to show us that they are all good, or little speeches like the one Dean made at Rufus's funeral to cover all bases - but overall we are left always circling back to "well you cant hold x against A, they've all messed up at some point". From an external perspective I'd be willing to put part of the reasons for Gadreel are as simple as the fact that it was Deans 'turn' to screw up, and they needed something real, because of the nuclear backlash they got about Sam not looking for Dean in purgatory. Throwing in the MOC was a bonus screwup doubling as a bone for the Dean fans as some narrative focus.
  9. ITA with all of this. And it goes double for impact, because these days its easy to think 3 episodes isnt all that much time when a lot of people have joined the show and binged them all together. But back then we DID have to wait for them, and even when it was actually a month later it felt too soon for Sam to complain about still being on probation. Even when we did understand they needed the story to move ahead, they could have done it without making out Sam to be an ass. * (from the media thread, idk its not exactly an unpopular opinion here, but the discussion is getting pretty finale-negative) Seconding that spn is not a procedural. Not truly. Seasons 1& 2, maybe 3 might be considered that with a little with more of a character arc in the background, but then they got a lot more serialized with the seasonal big bads and motw became the fun or filler episodes throughout the series (edit: do I have to clarify that I'm only trying to state that as an observation, not judgement. Season 2 is still my fave). Especially the last 5 years it IS almost dipping their toes into sitcom level drama territory. I might not have the right words to put it properly, but there is a definitive reason the last few seasons are much more tolerable on a binge vs slogging through them week to week (and it isn't all attributable to the immense amount of exposition, pacing, and the fact that a single episode alone is often unsatisfying). There has been so many changes to the show that staying "true" to anything probably still would have disappointed a lot of viewers. Maybe because Dabb was at the helm for the much more drama oriented version of it, that the backflip to "come full circle" was a bit more surprising for me. But the character and emotional arcs were there from the beginning and they should still have gone somewhere, and even outside of spn I have always found it a bit disappointing for them to amount to nothing. Even true procedurals throw in a promotion, or retirement and mention of hobbies or a bucket list, or a marriage, or a family, or the promise of some kind of future in there for their characters. Thematically coming full circle should facilitate the reflection of the journey we just had, not negate it. It should demonstrate why everything we learned and experienced along the way was important, how the characters are different from how they were and how they are now equipped to take care of similar problems, or show them in a new teaching role in what would otherwise be the same situation. Literally coming full circle is absolutely pointless. Death is already a cheap and easy way out, the arguments we have already had here on whether Heaven should be, or is shown to be, truly peaceful just by virtue of being heaven is evidence of that. and on spn its even more cheap because we have spent 15 years flouting it already. This thread is full of people discussing times Dean got screwed over but 15.20 takes the cake.
  10. on second thought, moved to BvJ because this conversation took on a life of its own. The spn Pilot is imo one of the best episodes, a hard ask for any pilot so it is probably positioned better to do the job than other shows, but I don't think you should be able to understand a final episode based solely on a pilot. It is interesting they had many of the same issues with it as people who did watch the show though.
  11. I agree, I really wish they had thought a bit more about what to replace their supposed heaven scene with to make it a bit less boring for him. When Billie first introduced the Empty as a threat, and we weren't sure how many more season renewals they were going to get I really thought (hoped?) that was going to be the endgame and just getting there was up in the air. Then again of course it wasn't because they couldn't possibly do anything that would make enough sense that we might have any chance of predicting it right? If one of those people who writes actual academic dissections on this show ever gets around to it I'd be interested to see the split in people content with the finale and how that correlates with preexisting theological views. Personally I would have loved a more His Dark Materials theologically themed ending (assuming they insist on closing everything off never to be addressed again - I stand by actually wanting an open ending). But perhaps that would have been yet another step too far, having Jack subsume God when they were already told they werent allowed to kill him was already pushing it I suppose. They toyed with that kind of idea at the beginning when it was left as a great unknown, and they genuinely believed ghosts who get torched lose any chance at the afterlife, until that applied to main characters and they had to actually address it and didn't want to get rid of Bobby.
  12. To use Crowley's words, Martin totally got Winchestered Sam shouldn't have expected any other hunter to be as morally ambigious/ objective as they sometimes are, much less Martin. And ditching him on the side of the road in vamp territory and Dean (as far as he knew) unconscious in a hotel was absolutely bonkers even if Dean made him do it lol
  13. yeah, spn slowly got more and more plotty and less and less and less character driven the longer it went on. Most of my biggest complaints come down to this, and their lack of showing the little things that don't really matter, except that they really really do. It's like they showed us them doing something once, so then its been there done that, and we can assume it happens, or its left up to the idea to hold its own implications. They're family, they're brothers, of course they have free time in the evenings, of course they spend time together even accidentally because of shared living spaces and it wouldn't work unless that was on really good terms - to the point where apparently that is such an assumption that it gets forgotten and leaves emotional holes in the later seasons. Specifically season 7 - the ending of Plucky pennywhistles is a nice example that gives us a little of this. Sam gets into it for once and gets Dean the slinky and they are shown to have been on the same page (re: taking prizes) and laughing about the evil clowns & glitter. I think (when they are on good terms) we really are expected to just assume they do friendly, brotherly, & domestic things. Its not like they wouldn't eat lunch together every single time they have to drive longer than 5 hours, but we see them do it less and less, especially if no exposition is required to happen anywhere. But then they also have Dean say things like "when was the last time we just had a beer together anyway?" (on more than one occasion if I'm not wrong), which instead of giving that moment more weight is only pointing out the idea that maybe we assumed wrong and actually, they don't. It doesn't help, that on those occasions it usually falls through because it was pointed out because there is something else going on at the time and they actually then don't really spend quality time together in the ep where its mentioned. Sam has other things on his mind, or something better to do, or if you want to read it that way it's being played as Dean always wanting to be in a bar and maybe if time with Sam is the goal he should suggest a different activity. The few times we do see them eating in the bunker its together, so we could probably assume they often have meals together, and it's not just ones that take effort to prepare and would make sense to prepare for 2, but simple things like sitting down for coffee at the same time. Even though the consensus is Sam takes point, Dean knows where everything in the bunker is, its not just a matter of understanding Sam's reference system, but he knows what shelf something is on, because he has put it there or seen it there previously. And the mess they make every time they have to research something would take hours of re-filing the shelves properly afterwards lol. We see Sam settling in to watch game of thrones with them at one point (I think?) so we don't have to assume he always ditches them for the apparently regular movie nights that Jack mentions which we never get to see. Plenty of exposition scenes are presented with them sitting in the library or the war room just chilling and drinking together, but because they're usually so focused on whatever the exposition is we lose sight of the fact that actually, before the conversation went there they were chilling together anyway. I would have liked if we had a couple of these conversations in a more comfortable setting in the Dean cave tbh. But like you said there's the risk there that they would play Sam off as vaguely annoyed or only there to appease Dean/ teasing things Dean is showing interest in. They really didn't manage to create and hold onto interests and hobbies of Sam's own, and he's so busy being the 'straight man' that he doesn't always seem to enjoy Dean's company. Its almost like Dean drags it out of him by being so goofy Sam doesn't have to worry about being embarrassed about liking something because who could be more embarrassing than Dean right? So without Dean what does he have?
  14. They've left enough dead bodies and confused Emergency room staff in their wake I never really bothered thinking too hard about it, on the assumption that we were expected to just chalk it up to their god-given TV-land powers lol. Nothing else about it ever really made sense to me so I had to allow for the watsonian "guess they wanted to get rid of Lisa and the boys need to be on the road together" excuse and just move on. They have presumably dealt with plenty of dead loved ones and bystanders to keep the victim-of-the week out of unnecessary hot water or to cover up the existence of whatever monster their family member turned into. 🤷‍♀️
  15. I think its less that he didn't love Lisa, and more that their relationship is the view of "love" as a series of choices. You make me happy, I make you happy, we make each other better people, so every day I will choose to stay, I will choose to put in the effort, and we both choose to make this work. In my books that's love, but also by definition there may come a day when you weigh the choices and no longer chose to stay, and that's just how it is. Its not very romantic I suppose, and doesn't get filed in the "one true love" category, and I can see how some people wouldn't be happy with that if that's how their partner felt. But I think it is enough. They both clearly put in a lot of effort that year with no strings attached, it was a healthy relationship and Dean was on the right track -if he had been honest with her about what happened on the vamp case I think she might've tried for a lot longer too. ITA about Lisa saying it was the best year of her life and that not being something Dean could fake, especially while he was so messed up about Sam. -But that's also why I think erasing their memories was so unforgivable. That is one of the main times I look at something Dean has done, and thought, nah that's selfish, it crosses a line, and it wasn't your call, and he knows she wouldn't have made that call even though they had broken up. Maybe because I never really considered it how you've described it below, and always sort-of saw it as a void, but it was a shitty move that I can't support. Honestly I always had a problem with the memory thing because I saw absolutely no evidence for the above. It makes sense, because only erasing their memories, and not the relationships existence entirely, still leaves them vulnerable only now with noone to call for help, and no awareness about it. Obviously the neighborhood and their extended family would also have to have their memories wiped, and evidence like photos, bank accounts, would all have to be changed, but we didn't see any of that. Do they even still remember meeting Dean in Season 3? ditto. . Especially after we saw them both try and fail to cut it out entirely, and then we got multiple side characters who managed to pull off side-gigs (and lets be honest even in season 2 Ellen showed that she managed to raise Jo just fine while still being part of the hunter world. That she wanted Jo to go to college suggests Jo at least had the grades if she had chosen differently), I really hoped that "peace" while (at least one of them was) alive showed them finally getting over the all or nothing hunting mentality and finding a better way. Deans dream about the bar that Michael built for him pretty much showed us how he would probably go about pulling it off. Recent seasons really pointed out everything we could have had, and then decided to do none of it at all, no matter what part of fandom you stand in.
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