S08.E06: Honey, I'm Home?

[Phoenix]

When Jasmine and Will were laying in bed and her voiceover states she needs/demands affection he said this directly to Jasmine.  If you didn't place a list of daily demands on me, the affections could be expedited.  So it's clear Will is turned off with her forceful, bossy, emasculating commentary that began at the start of their marriage.  

[dirtypop90]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

First of all Will could become ill, or burnout just as much as Jasmine can.

My issue with Jasmine isn't that she wants to stat home.  To me Jasmine did a bait and switch.  Promote yourself as independent, then as soon as you say "I do" decide to become a housewife.  Did she say in the beginning that when she married she didn't want to work anymore?  That's what I'd like to know. 

I don't think she did a "bait and switch" because she's said since the beginning of her relationship with Will she was an independent woman, but, as a married woman, she's wants something different.  I fit in the high-earning, independent, professional young woman category I guess, who can pay all the bills, but guess what...after I marry, there is NO WAY I'm keeping my job and any job with less hrs I get will be a major pay cut.  Because I don't want to do it all..work this job, take care of a household, and raise children.  If I meet a guy as I am today, I don't  think I'm doing a "bait and switch" if I tell him that I don't want to pay the majority of the bills after I marry.  I have to pay all the bills now because it's just me lol I have no choice but to be independent.  Jasmine had no choice but to be independent while single.

[configdotsys]

7 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I don't think she did a "bait and switch" because she's said since the beginning of her relationship with Will she was an independent woman, but, as a married woman, she's wants something different.  I fit in the high-earning, independent, professional young woman category I guess, who can pay all the bills, but guess what...after I marry, there is NO WAY I'm keeping my job and any job with less hrs I get will be a major pay cut.  Because I don't want to do it all..work this job, take care of a household, and raise children.  If I meet a guy as I am today, I don't  think I'm doing a "bait and switch" if I tell him that I don't want to pay the majority of the bills after I marry.  I have to pay all the bills now because it's just me lol I have no choice but to be independent.  Jasmine had no choice but to be independent while single.

This is something that should be discussed before a marriage takes place and if both people agree, great. These people don't have that option. If Jasmine painted herself as an independent woman on her application and paperwork that she submitted to the show, then the "experts" used that to match her with Will. Then they marry and she is a changed person than she was on that paper and Will and the "experts" never saw that coming. That is a bait and switch to me.

[NoWhammies]

I look at their division of finances like this: These couples are right now, at the very most, dating. Yeah yeah yeah - real marriages, piece of paper, blah blah blah. But this is a trial run. There's no way I'd want to co-mingle finances with someone I was dating - or worse, someone who had either friend-zoned me or whom I had friend-zoned. So in my opinion, co-mingling finances is premature at this point in all of these relationships because what they really have are getting-to-know-you relationships regardless of how they are labeled. In that case, regardless of who makes what, 50-50 split of household bills makes the most sense. I wouldn't, for example, expect a roommate to pay more of the rent/utilities because she made more money than me. And these people are roommates right now. Maybe some are roommates who bang, but they're still roommates.

My husband and I each paid our own bills and managed our own money plus split the household expenses 50-50 when we moved in together. We didn't start sharing finances until we got married and bought a house. My husband makes a lot more than me. Like about 4x what I make. We don't keep score really. Once we made the agreement to merge our finances, we merged them. He actually told me several times I could stop working if I wanted, and I couldn't bring myself to do it. My solution to the work-mom-life balance was to be a work-at-home mom. I'm very lucky I've been able to do that, and it's kept me sane. I will say we both work full-time, our kids are grown now (in college), and the division of labor in the house still is about 80-20 (I'm the 80). Would I like him to do more? Sure. But it isn't worth it to me to keep score either financially or about division of labor because I feel that tit for tat stuff harms the relationship. Likewise, he's not really on my case about the fact I make less money than him. I make enough and I work full-time. We figure in the end it all sort of comes out in the wash and we're contributing in the best way we can.

My previous husband and I kept our own finances...paid our own bills, maintained separate accounts, credit accounts, etc., and split our living expenses 50-50. We did that even after we were married until I got pregnant with our son and I realized what a mess his finances were. Then I co-mingled them so I could pay down his bills so we could afford to have the baby and pay for his education, etc. Even after giving birth to our son, I was the primary breadwinner and I did 90 percent of everything with the kiddo, with the house, etc.

I couldn't begin to judge someone else's financial arrangements in a marriage because there are just too many factors contributing to how it all works out.

Edited February 4, 2019 by NoWhammies

[dirtypop90]

28 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

This is something that should be discussed before a marriage takes place and if both people agree, great. These people don't have that option. If Jasmine painted herself as an independent woman on her application and paperwork that she submitted to the show, then the "experts" used that to match her with Will. Then they marry and she is a changed person than she was on that paper and Will and the "experts" never saw that coming. That is a bait and switch to me.

I think it is very unlikely that the Jasmine we're seeing on this show did not tell the truth about what she wanted/expected in a marriage.  She has been very vocal about her wants since the beginning.  She is not acting like someone who hid their wishes; she brought up finances on the honeymoon! She's not a woman who hides her hand.  IMO I think it is more likely that the experts IGNORED her wants.  They are clearly not matching people based on what they asked for.

Edited February 4, 2019 by dirtypop90

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

No. I don't think anyone has made that suggestion. Right now they are a dual-income, no-kid couple. There's no reason for Will to shoulder the bulk of the expenses right now, which is what Jasmine is suggesting they do with the 70/30 split she wants, when Jasmine makes money too. (The only way this makes sense to me is if Will makes that much more than Jasmine, which we don't know, and that doesn't appear to have factored into Jasmine's thinking given Pastor Cal's question.) I've never heard anyone suggest that a SAHP should be going into debt to pay the household bills; the assumption is that the income-earning spouse's salary covers the household and the SAHP adds value by taking care of the home and children. That's not where Jasmine and Will are in their relationship, though. Jasmine hasn't even mentioned wanting to quit her job that I can recall.

Re: the distribution of housework, if I recall correctly, Will asked Jasmine if she thought that she should shoulder more of it if he was taking on the bulk of the financial burden. Will was saying basically what you are: if you're not contributing financially, shouldn't you contribute more to the household upkeep? I don't even think that's a controversial position.

OK, then the point is still that we don't know whether they discussed how much money each of them makes nor do we know whether Jasmine makes more or less than Will.  So therefore I still think that calling her a diva that wants to sit on her ass while Will pays all the bills is based on nothing but assumptions, and that's what I object to.  We have not seen Jasmine say she wants to stay home nor that she wants Will to shoulder most of the financial burden just because she doesn't feel like contributing.  Those are assumptions I have seen made based on only a minute fraction of an entire conversation that must have included a LOT more than we saw.  I just don't think it's fair to make those assumptions based on so little information.  We already know this show is famous for that and making people look bad just to promote drama so I would prefer to give Jasmine the benefit of the doubt, especially when in most cases women that work want things to be fair, such as that they will only be for paying less toward household expenses if their income is that much less.  If I were to find out that Jasmine makes the same or more than Will I'd agree with you but until then I don't think it's fair to make such assumptions about her.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

HELL NO !  It is not a privilege to stay home and take care of kids day in and day out.  Its a big job.  Jasmine should not be expected to give one red cent.  She’s taking care of his kids.  I must live on Mars.  My husband and I pooled our money together no matter what each of us made from day one.  I didn’t work when the kids were small, then worked part time when they were bigger.  What’s his was mine and vice versa.  If he needs cash, he takes it and same with me.  All this 50, 30, 60 is foreign to me.  Maybe because they just got married and don’t know if they will stay together.  When we got inheritances, we shared equally down the middle.  We never had an argument over money and are married a very long time.  It’s just much easier to share equally.  I am old fashioned.  I know things are done differently now with women.  A few years back, it was talleyed up what a Mother was worth money wise if they had to hire someone to do everything.  I think it came to something like over $300,000 per year or something like that?  Maybe more.  I don’t remember exactly.  Guys almost fainted.   

In case I wasn't clear, I put "privilege" in quotes because I didn't mean it was a privilege, not because I think it is.  I'll join you on Mars.  What's his is mine and mine his in my marriage too, although we do have our own money too and we don't have a problem with that.  In the end it's all shared anyway and we don't keep track of every penny or chore each one of us does.  There is no score card.  When I spoke about 50-50 that's if a couple wants to make everything split down the middle.  My point was that doing that is not just about finances but includes housework too, plus that it's unrealistic to expect everything to be split that evenly all the time. 

I will say this:  I do agree that while they're still in the weeks before decision day these couples should keep everything separate and pay 50-50, but we still have no idea whether Jasmine and Will's conversation was about before decision day or in general.

[configdotsys]

8 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

OK, then the point is still that we don't know whether they discussed how much money each of them makes nor do we know whether Jasmine makes more or less than Will.  So therefore I still think that calling her a diva that wants to sit on her ass while Will pays all the bills is based on nothing but assumptions, and that's what I object to.  We have not seen Jasmine say she wants to stay home nor that she wants Will to shoulder most of the financial burden just because she doesn't feel like contributing.  Those are assumptions I have seen made based on only a minute fraction of an entire conversation that must have included a LOT more than we saw.  I just don't think it's fair to make those assumptions based on so little information.  We already know this show is famous for that and making people look bad just to promote drama so I would prefer to give Jasmine the benefit of the doubt, especially when in most cases women that work want things to be fair, such as that they will only be for paying less toward household expenses if their income is that much less.  If I were to find out that Jasmine makes the same or more than Will I'd agree with you but until then I don't think it's fair to make such assumptions about her.

I personally think that you can tell a lot about a person by their reaction to something. Jasmine's reaction to Will's suggestion that household bills are 50/50 is what offended me and my snark on her arose from that. She did not respond to him by beginning the conversation about her desire to immediately start a family and stay home to raise children, she made a face at him and seemed shocked and almost offended that this was his expectation. His comment to her later in the episode when she wanted affection from him was something like, "It will come once you stop putting all these demands on me." I don't buy into giving anyone demands ever, let alone on a supposed honeymoon. She belittled his fear of heights, and left him to his own fear on the suspension bridge. She walked away from the mud thing (which I understood, but Will was disapointed), gets on him about leaving stuff around. She strikes me as the type that wants what she wants and expects Will to bow to her wishes. If you look at her overall behavior on the show, it's not just finances that make me think she is a bit of a diva.

[Gem 10]

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

When a woman stays home to take care of home and children, the husband benefits.  Her work is worth something to him because she frees him up of his share of the responsibility to those things.  So if Jasmine wants to stay home Will is getting something as a result.  This was one of the points of the 1960s womens' movement, that housework and childcare are worth something and men should have an equal responsibility to those things, and women that stay home to do those things are benefiting a man.  She's not shirking responsibility by choosing to do that, it's just a different distribution of responsibility.

 

6 hours ago, Neurochick said:

To all those that believe that couples should split finances 50-50, I have a question for you.  What if Jasmine should become ill and can't work for a time and/or she decides after burning herself out that working and having kids is too much responsibility for her and as a result wants to stay home to devote all her time and energy to that?  Should she still be responsible for 50% of the finances?  For the "privilege" of staying home with kids should she have to go into debt or take money out of her personal bank account in order to pay "her share"?  Is she obligated to work outside the home for a salary to contribute her 50% even if taking care of a home and children at the same time is unfulfilling or too much for her?  Should her husband expect that of her?  

 

Dear Yeah No, I am so sorry.  I answered the question, should Jasmine contribute if she stood home with children.  I said “hell no”.  She’s taking care of his kids and didn’t owe him a dime.  I hope you didn’t take it any other way.  Her husband should not expect anything from her.  Staying home with kids is a job in itself.  That’s why lots of women want to work .. to get out of the house, dress up like a real person, savor the quiet commute to work, talk like a grownup to people instead of Mickey Mouse, eat lunch and do a job other than diapers.  Besides not taking money from her, he should give her a bonus for staying home.  Like I said before, women with kids have two jobs.  One at home and one at work. They are Wonder Women.  Men should expect nothing if that answers your question.  BTW, I agree with all you said.  P.S.  Sorry to Neurochick, and agree with you also.  This Chick Jasmine is making me nuts.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Gem 10

[Soup333]

10 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I have no problem with Jasmine’s (or anybody’s really) desire to be a SAHM. I do have a problem with her expecting this stranger to pay her bills practically two minutes after they met. That whole conversation was weird, and she has crazy expectations about Will. 

 

2 hours ago, configdotsys said:

I personally think that you can tell a lot about a person by their reaction to something. Jasmine's reaction to Will's suggestion that household bills are 50/50 is what offended me and my snark on her arose from that. She did not respond to him by beginning the conversation about her desire to immediately start a family and stay home to raise children, she made a face at him and seemed shocked and almost offended that this was his expectation. His comment to her later in the episode when she wanted affection from him was something like, "It will come once you stop putting all these demands on me." I don't buy into giving anyone demands ever, let alone on a supposed honeymoon. She belittled his fear of heights, and left him to his own fear on the suspension bridge. She walked away from the mud thing (which I understood, but Will was disapointed), gets on him about leaving stuff around. She strikes me as the type that wants what she wants and expects Will to bow to her wishes. If you look at her overall behavior on the show, it's not just finances that make me think she is a bit of a diva.

This is what the issue is. She and Will had just met days before and she reacted as if he told her he'd slap her mother in the mouth. 

Everyone who's ever been in a relationship/marriage knows there's a way to talk to your partner to get them to warm up to what you want. I'm NOT talking about any kind of abusive situation.  Not Bonnie convincing Clyde to rob banks. I'm talking about knowing your partner and knowing how to approach a topic that won't cause them to go on the defensive or feel belittled, etc. If Jasmine knew Will, she'd know how to talk to him. If she really wanted him to understand where she was coming from, her approach in that conversation wouldn't have been an incredulous, "50/50!!!" Instead she would have explained how she grew up watching her father pay all the bills and how that kind of marriage is important to her and she had hope that they could move towards that eventually. I still don't know why Jasmine wants this kind of setup other than this is what she saw growing up. 

[Gem 10]

35 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

 

This is what the issue is. She and Will had just met days before and she reacted as if he told her he'd slap her mother in the mouth. 

Everyone who's ever been in a relationship/marriage knows there's a way to talk to your partner to get them to warm up to what you want. I'm NOT talking about any kind of abusive situation.  Not Bonnie convincing Clyde to rob banks. I'm talking about knowing your partner and knowing how to approach a topic that won't cause them to go on the defensive or feel belittled, etc. If Jasmine knew Will, she'd know how to talk to him. If she really wanted him to understand where she was coming from, her approach in that conversation wouldn't have been an incredulous, "50/50!!!" Instead she would have explained how she grew up watching her father pay all the bills and how that kind of marriage is important to her and she had hope that they could move towards that eventually. I still don't know why Jasmine wants this kind of setup other than this is what she saw growing up. 

O.k.  You explained it the way we all understand.  The way Jasmine talks and acts is very confusing.  She probably doesn’t even know what she means.  Will is just confused as us, thus keeping his distance.  I think she wants to portray herself as an independent, smart know it all.  Instead, she comes out as smart ass.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, configdotsys said:

I personally think that you can tell a lot about a person by their reaction to something. Jasmine's reaction to Will's suggestion that household bills are 50/50 is what offended me and my snark on her arose from that. She did not respond to him by beginning the conversation about her desire to immediately start a family and stay home to raise children, she made a face at him and seemed shocked and almost offended that this was his expectation. His comment to her later in the episode when she wanted affection from him was something like, "It will come once you stop putting all these demands on me." I don't buy into giving anyone demands ever, let alone on a supposed honeymoon. She belittled his fear of heights, and left him to his own fear on the suspension bridge. She walked away from the mud thing (which I understood, but Will was disapointed), gets on him about leaving stuff around. She strikes me as the type that wants what she wants and expects Will to bow to her wishes. If you look at her overall behavior on the show, it's not just finances that make me think she is a bit of a diva.

There's no doubt in my mind that Jasmine wants to be the top dog in the relationship and I have said that elsewhere.  But I think her general reaction to Will is coming from the sense that he wants to be top dog too and they are actually a mismatch of temperament.  And that's why she's giving him a hard time and looks like a diva.  She's not really that much of a diva, she just seems like more of one with Will because they're not matched well.  She would be much happier with an easygoing guy that just says "Happy wife, happy life".  But on the other hand, I think Will wants a more easygoing woman that lets him take the lead.  Just because he's quiet doesn't mean he's easygoing.  I think both of them have strong personalities that are set in their ways and that never works together.  

I still don't think that generalizing from a very small snippet of a conversation is fair to do to her.  My BS meter goes off when I see very small parts of conversations on this show.  They could have left out all the stuff before that where she might have talked about starting a family and how much money each of them makes.  The show wants us to believe that didn't happen, but I haven't seen enough to be convinced that for no good reason she wants a man to pay more of the bills.  I feel like something was left out of that conversation purposely to create drama.  I have seen that so many times on reality shows that I have learned to suspend judgment in situations like this until I have more information.  I remember a similar meal conversation between Dave and Amber where she was made to look really bad unfairly because Dave was actually the one being crappy to her.  I wouldn't want to be judged based on something taken out of context within a much greater conversation.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Yeah No

[SabineElisabeth]

7 hours ago, Phoenix said:

 So it's clear Will is turned off with her forceful, bossy, emasculating commentary that began at the start of their marriage.  

IMO, she handled the conversation on finances the same way she handles most things - stridently, with a hard edge, etc.  She seems to approach everything and everybody expecting the worst and has her inner bitch barely contained just below the surface.  I have known a few people like this in real life, and in my experience, the attitude is because for whatever reason, their world view is such that they believe to their cores that unless they are constantly vigilant and fighting for themselves, they're going to be taken advantage of, disregarded, disrespected, marginalized, and so on.  And so, they are going to make damn sure that doesn't happen, and the result is....Jasmine.  

Unfortunately, people like this are usually off-putting, and when people react to them accordingly, it just serves to reinforce their ideas about how they are going to be treated, etc.  Entirely possibly to be strong, assertive, loud, over the top, even brash - without being so harsh (thinking Jacklyn from Season 2, Ashley Petta, Shawniece....).

8 hours ago, Jack Sampson said:

I doubt she even wants to be a housewife.  I think she wants to be independent but have Will finance her.

And that is exactly what Jasmine means, just summed up in one sentence that actually makes sense.  ;-)  When she says "independent," she doesn't mean taking care of herself; she means doing whatever she wants whenever she wants while someone else takes care of her.

13 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I believe I qualified my statement earlier by saying a woman in her 20’s, 30’s or 40’s. I was not meaning anyone who is retired, and I’m not really taking extenuating circumstances into account either, just non working for no reason. And quite honestly, I would have a hard time respecting (or understanding) a non working able bodied young “child free” woman, so the “just” was unconsciously intended. My original point was that other than crazy rich people you just don’t see this happening nowadays.

As someone who has gone exactly 8 months without working since I was 16 (and nearly lost my mind), I can't understand choosing not to work either, but I also can't say as a blanket statement that I would have a hard time respecting a woman without children who can work but voluntarily does not.  Just as with women who work, my respect for someone is based on the totality of what I know about the person.  For instance, I have known women who don't need to work but choose to do so to an extent that their children/marriages suffer, and i have known able-bodied childless women who don't work and do relatively little to contribute to their household or to society (nice way of saying stay home on the couch watching daytime tv day in and day out).  And I have an equal lack of respect for both.  I have also known able-bodied childless women who aren't employed by choice and work harder than I do as a full time attorney - including 2 current close friends.  If one is so motivated, there are endless ways to fill up one's time outside of having a "job," and it would never cross my mind to have less respect for these women just because they don't "work" in the traditional sense of the word.

I'm in my late 30s, so not of an older nor younger generation, I guess, but it's SO odd to me to say "My husband helps with the kids, housework, etc" or "I help with the household bills."  To me, there's a pool of stuff that has to be handled - if there are kids, then kids; household bills, housework, home maintenance, and list goes on and on - and each partner is equally responsible for making sure it all gets done.  None of it is inherently his or hers, and however it ends up being split is great as long as both people are generally happy with it.  And I don't have children, but if I were married and did, I'm pretty sure I'd punch my husband in the face, or at least fantasize about it haha, if he even so much as insinuated he was "helping" me with them.  As if I'd somehow created them myself?  Seriously??  ;-)

8 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

Hahaha, Ricky Bobby is paying 95 to her 5 now.  If she stays home with baby, he will also pay the $17,000 credit card bill.  Plus, she wanted the new more expensive house.  Is this guy for real?  He is so enamored of her I want to throw up.

Nothing to do with this season and forgive me the brief off topic comment, but I can't even guess as to what Bobby sees in Danielle.  I watched their season and Happily Ever After, and still not the slightest clue why such an amazing guy (yes, yes I do have a tiny Ricky Bobby crush, haha) gives Danielle the time of day, nevertheless freaking worships her.

On 2/3/2019 at 9:12 AM, Gem 10 said:

Haha, me too.  Kids are out of the house, and both of us are retired.  BORING.  I cook and clean .. he does dishes .. that’s why I can’t find anything, takes trash out, goes to the store if I don’t want to, and watches sports day in and day out.  I’ve worked with kids and without kids.  I don’t care what anyone says, retirement is boring, unless you have a yacht and lots of cash. After you help kids thru college, there’s not too much left.  So, I am a legit housewife now and it ain’t no big deal.  Oh .. and for fun, we go to the Doctor together, then probably lunch, lol.  

And this - just because it made me laugh so loud my cat jumped off the bed and is now glaring at me.  ;-)

Edited February 5, 2019 by SabineElisabeth

[Yeah No]

7 hours ago, SabineElisabeth said:

And that is exactly what Jasmine means, just summed up in one sentence that actually makes sense.  ;-)  When she says "independent," she doesn't mean taking care of herself; she means doing whatever she wants whenever she wants while someone else takes care of her.

That could be partially true, but Jasmine is definitely a career minded person if you look at her Linkedin page, plus I've read articles that say she owns her own home, so if all that is true she is rather independent by anyone's definition of the term.  And I don't think she's looking to throw all that away just because she wants someone else to take care of her.  I still think some assumptions are being made about her based on a few seconds of conversation taken out of context.  She probably just wanted things to be split according to their incomes or to be sure that if she should want to stay home to raise kids and take care of a house Will would have her back on that.  Which is a valid choice and IMO not to be bashed if we believe women should have that choice.  Also, I addressed this in a previous episode thread, but given that only a few generations ago a woman couldn't "do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted", that is definitely how Jasmine could be conceiving of being "strong and independent", but again looking at her resume and home ownership, she is plenty independent financially as well. 

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I still don't think that generalizing from a very small snippet of a conversation is fair to do to her.  My BS meter goes off when I see very small parts of conversations on this show.  They could have left out all the stuff before that where she might have talked about starting a family and how much money each of them makes.  The show wants us to believe that didn't happen, but I haven't seen enough to be convinced that for no good reason she wants a man to pay more of the bills.  I feel like something was left out of that conversation purposely to create drama.  I have seen that so many times on reality shows that I have learned to suspend judgment in situations like this until I have more information.  I remember a similar meal conversation between Dave and Amber where she was made to look really bad unfairly because Dave was actually the one being crappy to her.  I wouldn't want to be judged based on something taken out of context within a much greater conversation.

Quoting myself here - If I had a dollar for every time this show has shown a small piece of a conversation at a dinner table where the woman is the one that ends up looking bad, I'd have a nice stack of cash.  And I for one refuse to allow myself to be manipulated into that when I know there is probably a LOT more to the story.  And it makes me wonder why it's always the woman that ends up looking bad on this show.  I think the show does it on purpose just to make drama and get people all riled up.  Judging from the reaction on this board, they've done a good job of it, as usual, at a female participant's expense.  Oh, and given what we later found out about Dave, Nick, Derek, Tres, Nate, etc. which the show did not represent realistically, it's no wonder their matches reacted the way they did to them.  And yet the show managed to paint their female matches in a bad light so they caught crap on the boards.  Will is no angel, I am sure.  He strikes me as fairly passive aggressive.  The show has just not gone out of its way to make him look bad like it has done again and again with the women on this show.

[Soup333]

23 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

That could be partially true, but Jasmine is definitely a career minded person if you look at her Linkedin page, plus I've read articles that say she owns her own home, so if all that is true she is rather independent by anyone's definition of the term.  And I don't think she's looking to throw all that away just because she wants someone else to take care of her.  I still think some assumptions are being made about her based on a few seconds of conversation taken out of context.  She probably just wanted things to be split according to their incomes or to be sure that if she should want to stay home to raise kids and take care of a house Will would have her back on that.  Which is a valid choice and IMO not to be bashed if we believe women should have that choice.  Also, I addressed this in a previous episode thread, but given that only a few generations ago a woman couldn't "do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted", that is definitely how Jasmine could be conceiving of being "strong and independent", but again looking at her resume and home ownership, she is plenty independent financially as well. 

How do we know the few seconds were taken out of context? You’re guessing what she probably meant just like others are. Past seasons characterizations aside, Jasmine could really have meant exactly what we saw her say. She has yet to articulate to Will, Pastor Cal or in her talking heads why she wants this kind of arrangement in her marriage other than it’s what she saw growing up. Maybe she will do so when they officially have the finance conversation amongst all the couples, if they do. 

Also, there have been shit men, but also shit women. And we never know the worst until after it’s all over. Probably still don’t know the half in some of these cases. 

[LennieBriscoe]

Heh. You know a Reality Show about luuuurve is boring when it devolves into "who pays for what." 

Edited February 5, 2019 by LennieBriscoe

[Yeah No]

45 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

How do we know the few seconds were taken out of context? You’re guessing what she probably meant just like others are. Past seasons characterizations aside, Jasmine could really have meant exactly what we saw her say. She has yet to articulate to Will, Pastor Cal or in her talking heads why she wants this kind of arrangement in her marriage other than it’s what she saw growing up. Maybe she will do so when they officially have the finance conversation amongst all the couples, if they do. 

Also, there have been shit men, but also shit women. And we never know the worst until after it’s all over. Probably still don’t know the half in some of these cases. 

In my defense, I am most definitely not jumping to a conclusion about her based solely on less than a minute of conversation on the show.  I am comparing that with what I know about her from other sources, such as her Linkedin profile, and her being a single female homeowner that seems extremely proud of all her solo accomplishments.  Plus there's her general personality, which IMO is not congruent with a woman that just wants a man to take care of her with no equitable contribution toward the finances or other understandable arrangement.  All that together and those few seconds of conversation don't add up for me.  Feel free to disagree but I am not just "guessing".

And yes, there have been shit women on this show, but the show didn't go out of its way to make their male partners look bad and hide the woman's shittiness like it has hidden the men's shittiness at the expense of their female partners.  And THAT's the difference.  Of course there were some men like that fireman from Boston whose name is escaping me that you couldn't hide his shittiness.  And "basement Ryan" too.

I just thought of the case of another man that the show tried to cover up his shittiness and that's Ryan from season 2.  Jessica was made to look much worse but the show was hiding what a creep he was with talking heads where he acted much nicer than he was.

They also tried to cover up Sean from season 2's shittiness by making Davina look like the diva to end all divas, but even that was too hard to do and he ended up showing his colors.  But it didn't stop the show from trying to make Davina look like a princess shrew, which many people thought was the real problem in the relationship.

And let's not forget David and Ashley.  Ashley was roundly villified by the show while it went out of its way to make David look like an innocent victim.  Later on after his true colors came out people were seeing her in a new light.

So I remain unconvinced.  If Jasmine comes out later on to show that she deserves what people are saying about her I will be the first person to change my mind.  But until then I refuse to let a few seconds of conversation determine my overall opinion of her when other real life factors point in a different direction.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Yeah No

[Soup333]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

In my defense, I am most definitely not jumping to a conclusion about her based solely on less than a minute of conversation on the show.  I am comparing that with what I know about her from other sources, such as her Linkedin profile, and her being a single female homeowner that seems extremely proud of all her solo accomplishments.  Plus there's her general personality, which IMO is not congruent with a woman that just wants a man to take care of her with no equitable contribution toward the finances or other understandable arrangement.  All that together and those few seconds of conversation don't add up for me.  Feel free to disagree but I am not just "guessing".

And yes, there have been shit women on this show, but the show didn't go out of its way to make their male partners look bad and hide the woman's shittiness like it has hidden the men's shittiness at the expense of their female partners.  And THAT's the difference.  Of course there were some men like that fireman from Boston whose name is escaping me that you couldn't hide his shittiness.  And "basement Ryan" too.

I just thought of the case of another man that the show tried to cover up his shittiness and that's Ryan from season 2.  Jessica was made to look much worse but the show was hiding what a creep he was with talking heads where he acted much nicer than he was.

They also tried to cover up Sean from season 2's shittiness by making Davina look like the diva to end all divas, but even that was too hard to do and he ended up showing his colors.  But it didn't stop the show from trying to make Davina look like a princess shrew, which many people thought was the real problem in the relationship.

And let's not forget David and Ashley.  Ashley was roundly villified by the show while it went out of its way to make David look like an innocent victim.  Later on after his true colors came out people were seeing her in a new light.

So I remain unconvinced.  If Jasmine comes out later on to show that she deserves what people are saying about her I will be the first person to change my mind.  But until then I refuse to let a few seconds of conversation determine my overall opinion of her when other real life factors point in a different direction.

But I could look at those same sources and come to the conclusion that she is looking for a ride, or a sugar daddy of some sort. It's all subjective and we're all just guessing because we don't know. 

If the show tried to paint Jessica Castro in a bad light, they were unsuccessful with me. I would argue that some of Sam's abrasive behavior was hidden - at least according to Neil. And Molly as well (I only know this because of comments on this forum. I didn't watch that season). Didn't we find out that Stashley, or BitchBot 3000 as she's affectionately known, was trying to make an old boyfriend jealous? Wasn't that also the case with Jamie?

The editing can definitely make a person look a certain way but I really don't see Jasmine as getting a diva edit. The comments and complaints she's made about Will being messy and being a "fraidy cat" are what they are. The things she's said about wanting him to pay ALL the bills are what they are. She's reiterated these statements more than once. 

[SabineElisabeth]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

That could be partially true, but Jasmine is definitely a career minded person if you look at her Linkedin page, plus I've read articles that say she owns her own home, so if all that is true she is rather independent by anyone's definition of the term.  And I don't think she's looking to throw all that away just because she wants someone else to take care of her.  I still think some assumptions are being made about her based on a few seconds of conversation taken out of context.  She probably just wanted things to be split according to their incomes or to be sure that if she should want to stay home to raise kids and take care of a house Will would have her back on that.  Which is a valid choice and IMO not to be bashed if we believe women should have that choice.  Also, I addressed this in a previous episode thread, but given that only a few generations ago a woman couldn't "do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted", that is definitely how Jasmine could be conceiving of being "strong and independent", but again looking at her resume and home ownership, she is plenty independent financially as well. 

 

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Quoting myself here - If I had a dollar for every time this show has shown a small piece of a conversation at a dinner table where the woman is the one that ends up looking bad, I'd have a nice stack of cash.  And I for one refuse to allow myself to be manipulated into that when I know there is probably a LOT more to the story.  And it makes me wonder why it's always the woman that ends up looking bad on this show.  I think the show does it on purpose just to make drama and get people all riled up.  Judging from the reaction on this board, they've done a good job of it, as usual, at a female participant's expense.  

 

2 hours ago, Soup333 said:

How do we know the few seconds were taken out of context? You’re guessing what she probably meant just like others are. Past seasons characterizations aside, Jasmine could really have meant exactly what we saw her say. She has yet to articulate to Will, Pastor Cal or in her talking heads why she wants this kind of arrangement in her marriage other than it’s what she saw growing up. Maybe she will do so when they officially have the finance conversation amongst all the couples, if they do. 

Also, there have been shit men, but also shit women. And we never know the worst until after it’s all over. Probably still don’t know the half in some of these cases. 

 

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

In my defense, I am most definitely not jumping to a conclusion about her based solely on less than a minute of conversation on the show.  I am comparing that with what I know about her from other sources, such as her Linkedin profile, and her being a single female homeowner that seems extremely proud of all her solo accomplishments.  Plus there's her general personality, which IMO is not congruent with a woman that just wants a man to take care of her with no equitable contribution toward the finances or other understandable arrangement.  All that together and those few seconds of conversation don't add up for me.  Feel free to disagree but I am not just "guessing".

And yes, there have been shit women on this show, but the show didn't go out of its way to make their male partners look bad and hide the woman's shittiness like it has hidden the men's shittiness at the expense of their female partners.  And THAT's the difference.  Of course there were some men like that fireman from Boston whose name is escaping me that you couldn't hide his shittiness.  And "basement Ryan" too.

So I remain unconvinced.  If Jasmine comes out later on to show that she deserves what people are saying about her I will be the first person to change my mind.  But until then I refuse to let a few seconds of conversation determine my overall opinion of her when other real life factors point in a different direction.

MAFS consists of nothing but short snippets of conversations and THs, and my understanding has always been the reason PTV exists is to comment on the conclusions and assumptions we make based upon what's presented on the show.   

Regarding Jasmine in particular, I have looked at her LinkedIn as well, but didn't find it provided much more information than we're given generally on the show - that she's college educated and has a professional job/work history.  To say she "seems" proud of her accomplishments and that her "general personality" says something is most definitely conjecture IMHO, unless perhaps a close friend of hers IRL, and adding her LinkedIn and being a homeowner hardly gives enough information to take anything said here from the realm of assumption to certainty, or even likely.  My basic take away is that some have a different opinion about Jasmine than myself and others do, having arrived at those opinions by taking the tiniest amount of information and extrapolating - and that is totally cool.  ;-)  Personally, if I only wanted to read posts that mirrored my thoughts, I wouldn't be at PTV!

As for the show making women look like villians more so than the men, I still don't get that.  My impression from having watched every season (yes, I know... maybe I should spend less time here and more time re-evaluating my life, haha) is that MAFS is equally willing to present us with a shit guy or a shit woman, depending on what they have to work with and what they think will make the better story line. (-;

[Gem 10]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

There's no doubt in my mind that Jasmine wants to be the top dog in the relationship and I have said that elsewhere.  But I think her general reaction to Will is coming from the sense that he wants to be top dog too and they are actually a mismatch of temperament.  And that's why she's giving him a hard time and looks like a diva.  She's not really that much of a diva, she just seems like more of one with Will because they're not matched well.  She would be much happier with an easygoing guy that just says "Happy wife, happy life".  But on the other hand, I think Will wants a more easygoing woman that lets him take the lead.  Just because he's quiet doesn't mean he's easygoing.  I think both of them have strong personalities that are set in their ways and that never works together.  

I still don't think that generalizing from a very small snippet of a conversation is fair to do to her.  My BS meter goes off when I see very small parts of conversations on this show.  They could have left out all the stuff before that where she might have talked about starting a family and how much money each of them makes.  The show wants us to believe that didn't happen, but I haven't seen enough to be convinced that for no good reason she wants a man to pay more of the bills.  I feel like something was left out of that conversation purposely to create drama.  I have seen that so many times on reality shows that I have learned to suspend judgment in situations like this until I have more information.  I remember a similar meal conversation between Dave and Amber where she was made to look really bad unfairly because Dave was actually the one being crappy to her.  I wouldn't want to be judged based on something taken out of context within a much greater conversation.

Will may look the quiet type, but inside he might be simmering.  He just might explode at some time, leaving Jasmine in the dust.  Who knows.  At this point, I really don’t trust what production will do.  We don’t even know if production told her to make the money a big deal like she did.  I wouldn’t be surprised if they did as we are still talking about it to this day.

[Gem 10]

2 hours ago, Soup333 said:

How do we know the few seconds were taken out of context? You’re guessing what she probably meant just like others are. Past seasons characterizations aside, Jasmine could really have meant exactly what we saw her say. She has yet to articulate to Will, Pastor Cal or in her talking heads why she wants this kind of arrangement in her marriage other than it’s what she saw growing up. Maybe she will do so when they officially have the finance conversation amongst all the couples, if they do. 

Also, there have been shit men, but also shit women. And we never know the worst until after it’s all over. Probably still don’t know the half in some of these cases. 

All I know is Production is very smart, probably reading all the blogs and pulling all the strings and laughing their asses off.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

But I could look at those same sources and come to the conclusion that she is looking for a ride, or a sugar daddy of some sort. It's all subjective and we're all just guessing because we don't know. 

I find it interesting that you would look at the fact that a college educated women who has had progressively advancing experience in her profession that also owns her own home and conclude based on a few comments made out-of-context that she is looking for a sugar daddy.  Because to me those facts are more significant than those few out-of-context quotes taken from a show that we know plays the audience for all we're worth.  I'm still not buying it until I see more information.  I know if I were faced with a man I didn't trust or had reason to wonder about (which she may have we don't know) I would probably look unnecessarily hard on him or look like I'm looking for a sugar daddy when all I want is a responsible guy and I'm not getting those vibes from him.  Perhaps Jasmine senses that he's not into her so she is riding him about stuff she wouldn't ordinarily be so picky about.  The truth is we don't know.  My philosophy is that until we know, my jury is out.  I have not come to any conclusion yet despite what you may think.  And that is not what I see in other opinions.  I think it's a little premature to have come to any conclusions here.  Sometimes it doesn't take long to see a creep for a creep (as with Luke) but other times it's harder to see from a distance and with a lot of slanted editing.  YMMV.

[Gem 10]

20 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

Believe me, I’m not on Jasmine’s side in this discussion.  There’s such a lack of clarity in their discussion I want to do a mediation to sort it out. 

For the purposes of the show, expenses definitely need to be 50-50 if they aren’t taken care of  by production.

i think you need to love and trust one another and be dedicated to your marriage to work out financial arrangements, and even then small negotiations are needed over years before things fall into place. None of that is present here.  

Ricky Bobby needs to be sent to talk to all new couples.

Ricky Bobby?  They should clone him.  I want one.  He’s a Project Manager, gets married to an average woman who he adores, cooks for her, buys her a better house even tho he already has one, .. she’ll probably stay home with the baby until it’s 20, etc.  I didn’t know they made Ricky Bobbys.  She must have magical powers, or maybe it’s her baby voice.  He’ll probably get up with the baby at night so she can sleep.  I want a Ricky Bobby.  

Edited February 5, 2019 by Gem 10

[CousinOliver]

I sacrificed  brain cells to re watch 3 minutes of this conversation between Jasmine and Will.   

Jasmine and Will were having a conversation about expectations regarding sharing a life. 

Gender roles come up; Will, apparently imagining actual household labor, made the "you can cook?" joke.  She looks PISSED.  He lets her know he's joking and he's not into gender roles; Jasmine seems pleased and relieved. 

He says there are some things he's willing to take on 100% because they're "manly" (taking out trash is the example) and she jumps right in with paying bills.  He says, "naw, that's 50/50". 

When he says, "you DO believe in gender roles, so you wouldn't mind cooking every night?", she says she wouldn't mind that (despite just being shocked at his joke.)  She then, quite illogically, does not agree that it lessens the load to have half the bills that she was paying as a single woman (what, Jasmine??) 

Then she starts negotiating to pay smaller bills. 

Jasmine is working and does not have children.  She is currently in good health.  All discussions regarding "what if..." did not apply to them at the time of the conversation. 

I read that as "I want you to pay the bills and to keep my money."  Hey, that's fine, just not fine for a contestant on MAFS.  That is crazy selfish.  I don't really care if he is imagining 50/50 with this stranger as literal 50% of bills or 50/50 as in 50% of income is contributed to the communal pot -- Will should have some sort of expectation of fairness in bill paying. 

If she wants a man who pays all of the bills, or most of the bills, she should be looking for that in real life, not going on some reality game show.  I don't think she is looking for a sugar daddy (since there's no indication that she wants to stay home from that initial conversation), but she is looking for something unreasonable to the average man.  This is different from an organically occurring marriage wherein people make choices about money after coming to a place of trust, understanding, mutual agreement, and shared goals with a foundation of love. 

Jasmine comes off as greedy. 

(My late husband and I fully merged finances; I went through unemployment, he went through long illnesses where he couldn't work [although got 60% pay on short term disability, so more inconvenience than crisis], etc.  My current finance and I do not share a bank account, although we are very much a team when paying bills.  The two arrangements are totally different, but each work.  There is not one right answer, EXCEPT "don't come on a reality show and ask your stranger-husband to pay everything.  Or most everything, if he doesn't jump right into your plan.")   

Edited February 5, 2019 by CousinOliver

[Gem 10]

22 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I don't think she did a "bait and switch" because she's said since the beginning of her relationship with Will she was an independent woman, but, as a married woman, she's wants something different.  I fit in the high-earning, independent, professional young woman category I guess, who can pay all the bills, but guess what...after I marry, there is NO WAY I'm keeping my job and any job with less hrs I get will be a major pay cut.  Because I don't want to do it all..work this job, take care of a household, and raise children.  If I meet a guy as I am today, I don't  think I'm doing a "bait and switch" if I tell him that I don't want to pay the majority of the bills after I marry.  I have to pay all the bills now because it's just me lol I have no choice but to be independent.  Jasmine had no choice but to be independent while single.

I don’t know of any man who would think their wife should work besides taking care of children and a house.  All that alone is enough for one woman.  If this woman wants to live in an expensive house, drive an expensive car, buy designer bags, clothes and shoes, then she might have to contribute with working too.  If you live within means, you be a stay at home Mom.  It can be done.  Being a mom and taking care of the house and things is enough for any woman and is a job in itself.  Some women rather work because they like the extra money or they love their job better than staying home.  

[Lily247]

On 2/4/2019 at 6:05 PM, Yeah No said:

In case I wasn't clear, I put "privilege" in quotes because I didn't mean it was a privilege, not because I think it is.  I'll join you on Mars.  What's his is mine and mine his in my marriage too, although we do have our own money too and we don't have a problem with that.  In the end it's all shared anyway and we don't keep track of every penny or chore each one of us does.  There is no score card.  When I spoke about 50-50 that's if a couple wants to make everything split down the middle.  My point was that doing that is not just about finances but includes housework too, plus that it's unrealistic to expect everything to be split that evenly all the time. 

I will say this:  I do agree that while they're still in the weeks before decision day these couples should keep everything separate and pay 50-50, but we still have no idea whether Jasmine and Will's conversation was about before decision day or in general.

There is indeed privelige in staying home with their kids, even though it us still the hardest job in the world. What is the privelige? It is in the ability to make that choice. Ask any mom from a low income household whose husbands cannot carry the weight of the household, or the moms who commute hours a day to chase that bread, or who have stressful jobs and worry about their child through the day. 

I recall hearing that Jasmine makes more.$$ than Will. Hmmm. This will not turn out wrll. I think that Jasmine doesnt meed to talk about paying less pr working less bc they have no kids. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

The show just barely started, and already Luke is accusing Kate of hogging the bed!

[Straycat80]

No new thread for tonight? Having an ice storm in my area so I might miss this  episode because of signal going out. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

So the Queen and Keith didn't use protection.

Keith, YOU know better than that!! Do you want to have to work full time to pay for kids, right now??!

[Ms.C.]

On 1/30/2019 at 7:37 PM, configdotsys said:

I agree with this and know the type. He goes from "everything has to be my way or I'm gonna let you know for a long time how pissed I am, by turning red and throwing a tantrum" followed by the "I'm just really kinda high strung," and expecting Stephanie and everyone else to just move on from it. There is something about Stephanie that irks me. She doesn't come across as very feminine to me and I don't say that in a mean way as I'm a Kristy McNichol in Family kind of gal myself. She has a hardness about her and sometimes her attempts at humor seem forced like she's trying to fit into the conversation. I think perhaps that may be the reason she was still single at her age.

I agree with this if he's not going to whine and throw a tantrum if he gets tuna salad or leftovers for dinner. He seems the type that was so terribly spoiled that a full on home cooked meal daily is his expectation. If that's the case, they should buy a crockpot and show him that it's not rocket science to take a bunch of stuff, throw it in and come back in 8 hours.  

This is my problem with Kristine from the beginning. The whole "never get a second chance to make a first impression" thing popped right out. As soon as she said she is the queen, she lost me. Just like Kate's, giggly, 12 year old girlish "Hiiiieeeeeeee" to Luke when she got to the altar completely turned me off to her. Kristine seems the type that believes she can fix Keith and get him straightened out in all the ways about him that she wants changed. It doesn't work that way.

I don't think Will is putting much effort into Jasmine because he's not interested in her. I think this lack of interest stems from being completely turned off by this "independent woman" who immediately recoiled at the suggestion that she contributed equally to the household bills. She didn't compromise with him when choosing honeymoon activities. She chose what she wanted despite his fears and essentially belittled his fear of heights. Had she come across as a traditional person who supports 1950s era gender roles, then Will would have known that from the start. But she didn't. She was all about being independent, a homeowner and even said on the show that she could manage everything money wise herself but just doesn't want to because she feels like he should. Yeah, right. That's called selective traditionalism in my book. If that is what turned Will off, I can't say that I blame him. Jasmine comes across as a snob. She used the "happy wife, happy life" line in Will at the table which is just another way of saying, "If I don't get my way, I'll make your life miserable." Eff that.

And why should the grandmother, who is now free of this man baby, have to make dinner several times a week (or ever) for these people? Sure, if they visit on occasion and she makes dinner that is great but using her to make up for the shortcoming of a 30-something married man baby? Oy. I'm sure at this point in her life, granny wouldn't mind a little "me" time. 

Up to grandma I would say. Why judge?  Grandparents often love helping out and keeping close 

[configdotsys]

8 hours ago, Ms.C. said:

Why judge?

Because this a snark forum that welcomes all opinions about what we see on these shows?

Edited February 6, 2019 by configdotsys

[Yeah No]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:58 AM, Ms.C. said:

Up to grandma I would say. Why judge?  Grandparents often love helping out and keeping close 

I judge any parent or grandparent that knowingly or unknowingly participates in codependent behavior to keep a child or grandchild from growing up, and IMO that's exactly what Keith's grandmother is doing.

[Gem 10]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:58 AM, Ms.C. said:

Up to grandma I would say. Why judge?  Grandparents often love helping out and keeping close 

That is true, but I have to say that I’ve seen some Grandparents do things for their kids and grandkids because that’s the only way they get to see them.  In this day and age., young parents are so busy with their lives, they sometimes forget about their parents and grandparents.  It is sad, but true.  I saw an elderly woman in the parking lot that was struggling with a car seat.  There were two little ones in the back and Grandma was in her 70’s easy, and was huffing and puffing.  My own Mother told me she would only babysit my kids for a wedding or a funeral. She worked her whole life as she had to, and babysitting was out of the question.  Some love it and some don’t.