Manhattan - General Discussion

[applecrisp]

I too like the opening, it reminds me of ants.  This show,to me, is a lot like Mad Men in many ways.  In this the stakes are higher and many characters are patirotic and know the allies must win this war.  There is an urgency that I am sure people must have felt at that time.  Everyone was scared. I think scared people do things without thinking about the consequences.

 

My parents were involved in WWII in minor rolls, my mom worked in a bomb factory and then went to nurses training. My dad worked on a navy base.  According to my grandmother he was on a ship overseas and she prayed to Sy. Jude and the ship turned around.  TMI, anyhow I can't imagine how scary it must have been.  We were not sure that the allies would win.  The general public was not fully aware of the slaughter that had taken place.

 

I just think that the atmosphere on The Hill had to be sufocating. I don't think I could have withstood it and totally understand Liza's freakout.

 

For me the big flaw of Manhattan is the lack of humor.  There is no Roger with witty remarks or Pete being Pete or even funny situations.  It is too serious.

[peeayebee]

Because Sunday night has so many programs I watch, I set my DVR to record one of the encore airings of this ep. Unfortunately, my recording started with the end of the ep where Charlie is sitting on the bed waiting for Abby. I saw Elodie and her husband get put into cars. Then another encore began, but the recording ended about where Abby looked out the window and saw the family (… which I couldn't see because the scene was dark, so thanks for mentioning it here).

 

So I need to be filled in on what happened, specifically, what did Paul do? Did Abby leave Elodie's house and go get the papers to plant? But a step-by-step of what happened after Abby looked out the window would be great.

 

Oh, and what about Aikley's wife? Did something happen with her in this ep?

[buckboard]

The Sunday night show is repeated throughout the week on WGN, so you can see the show in its entirety.

 

 

[janeta]

Did the audio get very weird for anyone else in the last five minutes or so?

I missed bits and pieces here and there; whenever they went to Ab/lodie, I switched channels.

[dohe]

Janeta, that's a shame on changing the channels during the Abby/Elodie sequences.  Very strong, incisive material about how we battle within between what we want and what others expect of us, to follow the path of what really fulfills us and the path we follow based on what others expect and even what we once expected of ourselves.   It also raises how not finding oneself before certain decisions can put one in a trapped situation.  It sort of reminds me of The Price of Salt plotline which Todd Haynes is making a film from.  Where Carol is forced to make a decision between who she has fallen for and retaining custody of her child.  Also Rachel Brosnahan was brilliant.  The best depiction of inner conflict since Aden Young's not really a confession scene on the season finale of Rectify.  Anyways if it is rerun, I highly recommend watching it because the stuff with Abby, Charlie, and Elodie was very moving and powerful. 

 

However, while Brosnahan continues to turn in one of the best performances on television, Harry Lloyd was incredible last night too.  This was Lloyd's shining moment.  Seeing happiness turn to anger.  I think what Lloyd has captured in Paul is someone with little faith in themselves as a person.  To him, Helen was almost a way to build himself up.  There is a subtle self-loathing being captured by Lloyd.  Paul doesn't recognize the good in himself.  One of the more touching moments in the show was him refusing to have the British scientist be with Jeannie.  Yes, in a way it is about Paul's hostility to the man but another part of him cares about Fritz.  He knows Jeannie makes Fritz happy. That is important to Paul.  Lloyd really conveys this man's feelings of failure.  They may be below the surface but Lloyd is still able to register them. 

 

As for the sound, the only thing I noticed was the end of the record playing during a kiss scene sounded more like someone opening a door.   

Edited October 7, 2014 by dohe

[renatae]

Oh, I understand the definition of whoring. It would be perfectly understandable for uniform personnel to have some healthy extracurricular sexual activity, such as was demonstrated by the male soldier. There just seemed to be an implication in the previous episode especially that the female uniforms were whoring. I tend to wonder how women who may have worn the uniform during that period would feel about the accuracy of the portrayal. (Unless whores were brought in and passed off as uniformed personnel? Which must break some sort of regulation, I'd wager.)

 

I have to say I find this whole portrayal of the sexual liaisons pretty unbelievable. Sure, people have always had sex outside of marriage, but the 40's were a pretty puritanical time. That a whole group of uniformed women would be engaging in casual sex, much less charge for it, just seems completely unbelievable to me. My mom was a nurse WAC at the time, and she would have been completely shocked by any such behavior, and I believe she was representative of her time. Shoot, I'd have been shocked during the 60's or even  70's by such a thing. I remember my mom telling me about a man and a classmate of hers which was an eye opener for her. She only knew of the circumstance because she was standing at the curb when his car went by and she saw her classmate crouched on the floor of the car, hiding. So, she learned things were not always as they seemed, but they were definitely covered up if they weren't "kosher."

Edited October 8, 2014 by renatae

[renatae]

I think she showed what she's going to do: nothing. She'll turn a blind eye and make the occasional oblique comment just to make sure he knows she knows.  I wonder now that it's kinda sorta out in the open, if this takes away any potential leverage from what's-his-face (Richard Schiff) who is investigating Frank. It was never real clear to me what they were trying to prove he was doing anyway.

 

I thought Charlie was a little cold to Helen when they got base to the base. Is he blaming her for his lascivious thoughts?

 

Helen's character just seems all kind of wrong for this time period. She's too liberated, independent, sexually aggressive. It's like they plopped a 21st century woman into a 1940's drama.

 

I so agree about Helen's character! Also, the French girl, I forget her name. I know the Europeans pride themselves on not being "repressed," but, really, aside from some notorious people, I really believe the predominance of Christianity of the time made people much more circumspect than the writers of today ever acknowledge.

[renatae]

Mileage varies, of course, but I thought that was the best bit in the episode. It seemed very accurate both with regards to what Charlie would imagine and what could really happen if he spoke up.

IIRC, Akely expressed in an earlier episode that he wasn't in a hurry--but did Charlie hear it?

And did Frank tell Charlie about his personal belief that they had to hurry to build the bomb to save lives? Or does Charlie not know about Frank's philosophical views on the subject. I watch too much TV and don't recall.

I'm not personally glad they used nuclear energy to create bombs, but the show does an excellent job of explaining why it was done.

My former home town got burned off the map a few hours ago in California, which makes the devastation of the bomb seem more up close and personal to me on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians who were vaporized.

 

So very sorry to learn of what happened to your home town. I don't think I can quite imagine how that would feel!

 

I felt that, besides fearing Ackley's reaction, Charlie decided to go to Frank because of Frank's real intensity and genuine obsession with getting the job done and getting it done right. I'm not sure about the answers to your questions because I'm in the same boat.

[ganesh]

This is a small town in the middle of nowhere that's basically a fortress though. If I was running it I'd be sure to have a brothel, or else everyone would just start bombing each other. 

[renatae]

I don't really think Abby/Elodie is who Abby "really is." I feel that the relationship is a way in which Abby is reacting to learning a lock-step sort of life is not the only possibility. I do agree that there is an inner conflict between who Abby always thought she was and who she really is, but I don't think Elodie is the answer; she is just the conduit to Abby seeing beyond expected patterns of life. I think that for Elodie, Abby was just convenient. Elodie presented an obvious and cliched way of escape for Abby from a marriage she is seriously doubting, but, yes, she came to realize what she would be losing if she pursued the unrealistic "let's run off somewhere and live like beach bums" scenario. Hopefully, she and Charlie will come to regret their horrible betrayal of Elodie and her stinker of a husband, and in the meanwhile, learn to genuinely relate to each other, even though it's much more likely they will come to hate themselves and each other.

 

I do have to say I enjoyed Charlie coming out as the Neanderthal against Elodie's husband after all his boorish and threatening behavior, but I wish he had left it at that.
 

 

I am praying that the Richard Schiff character is revealed as the spy at some point, and that the season ends with his being locked in a little room with someone just like him interrogating him.

 

 

That would be vastly rewarding!

[shapeshifter]

I do have to say I enjoyed Charlie coming out as the Neanderthal against Elodie's husband after all his boorish and threatening behavior, but I wish he had left it at that.

I didn't see that as an option if surviving was Charlie's goal. Elodie's husband seemed pretty clear about having Charlie sent to the Far East, which, as with Frank's more benign suggestion of that destination to Sid, is in reality a death sentence--or at least a professional purgatory. Also, ever since seeing the pictures of the death camps, Charlie believes he has to finish the project in time to save his ethnicity from being wiped off the face of the planet in a horrific manner.

[NorthstarATL]

This is a small town in the middle of nowhere that's basically a fortress though. If I was running it I'd be sure to have a brothel, or else everyone would just start bombing each other. 

That was undoubtedly the reason for relocating the family units. And no doubt an enterprising sort might set up an open brothel for the unmarrieds, or a cover business that dabbled on the side. But with the level of paranoia and restrictions it was probably not as easy as in freer climates. My problem was that Helen asserted that the female uniform personnel were "all" working as prostitutes, which not only seems historically inaccurate as a uniform profession, but, as renatae points out, unlikely given the time period. Was the military employing them as prostitutes or were they earning extra money on the side? If the military was employing them, were they operating as spies, reporting back what they might have heard? In an atmosphere like that, I think I'd do without for a little while. Maybe start runnning more frequently.

[ganesh]

Of all the ways I imagined Frank and Charlie might be brought down, I didn't think it would be the British guy out of spite and spurned love. I really liked him too.

 

Given what we know about history, and what we know about nuclear physics, I wouldn't say they've been "brought down" yet. The Thin Man won't work, flat out. It's not even debatable. 

 

What a pussy though. I thought he was going to figure it out and say he wanted in. Like a larger role, or his fair share of the credit. It's not like he didn't believe in implosion. Nice to know back in the 40s guys still thought they 'deserved a hot chick.' 

 

As long as our bomb was ready to go before the enemy could make one, would the army really care how it got made?

 

That's the problem. If they go with the Thin Man, they'll lose. The Bosses don't think implosion will work. It will work, but they need solely to dedicate massive resources to it. The army isn't going to care how the real bomb gets made, but if the Nazis are a year ahead by the time they figure out Thin Man doesn't work, then the army is going to be really pissed. 

 

I actually don't have a problem with Charlie. The guy assaulted his wife and threatened him. You know what? You're actually expendable. I don't need this shit when I'm trying to build a nuclear bomb. Faster than the Nazis. Be seeing you. I don't like how Abby is so royally pissed off that Charlie "doesn't tell her anything." You do understand what classified means? I was hoping she'd just run off.

 

So maybe he shouldn't have asked her. He's not that socially nuanced as it is. Maybe he should have explained better. Maybe he should have said he's been planning his revenge all this time. 

 

However, in a time when being queer could mean a loss of custody, it is one difficult dilemma.

 

Having one same-sex affair doesn't make one queer, however. She could have just as easily decided that this was a one time thing and not really Who She Was long term. I don't think the show was definitive either way, which is fine. 

 

I feel that the relationship is a way in which Abby is reacting to learning a lock-step sort of life is not the only possibility. 

 

This a more apt summation. 

[dohe]

Ganesh, Abby's queer.  No real way around that.  You are right that this could be her one and only same sex affair, especially considering the times, but it doesn't make her any less queer.  Queer is an umbrella term and if you are an adult that loves having sex with someone of the same sex you are queer.   

 

Renatae, in the very first episode, after they have just arrived, Abby is ogling a nude Elodie pretty intently.  That came before the "lock-step sort of life" or concerns about Charlie's integrity came up.  That sequence was there for a reason.  I do agree that Abby/Elodie is not what Abby is.  Now that doesn't mean I don't think Abby and Elodie could have been happy together.  It just means that what Abby is hopefully not defined by someone else (which sadly was a choice she made at the end of this episode in betraying herself).  However that relationship has made Abby confront who she is.  Twice, in the last two episodes, Abby was confronted with who she is and what she wants.  Both times her reaction was to have sex with another woman.  When external forces came into play, she went with the path that was safe and in which, most importantly, she would retain custody of her child showing the complexity of what she wants - the difference between idealism and pragmatism.

 

As for hoping Charlie and Abby make up, I hope they do but I also hope they end up divorcing rather than carrying on that toxic relationship.  Then Charlie can be with someone he connects to and Abby can be with someone, man or woman doesn't matter, she connects to. 

Edited October 8, 2014 by dohe

[dubbel zout]

I don't like how Abby is so royally pissed off that Charlie "doesn't tell her anything." You do understand what classified means? I was hoping she'd just run off.

I know. And her continual whining about being stuck in the middle of nowhere. I genuinely sympathize with hating the isolation, but on the other hand, THERE'S A WAR ON. Sacrifices need to be made. Stop being an immature, selfish brat.

 

Ganesh, Abby's queer.  No real way around that.

I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as that, but this isn't the forum for that discussion. I think Abby is a bored housewife who's stuck in an especially thankless place. Elodie is a distraction (I don't mean that to be as belittling as it might sound) who has given Abby some important things to think about. But that doesn't mean Abby will suddenly find herself and decide to live a different kind of life. I don't think Abby has the strength of character for that. Not that she's a weak person, but I don't see her as making such big changes.

[Tim McD]

So I need to be filled in on what happened, specifically, what did Paul do? Did Abby leave Elodie's house and go get the papers to plant?

 

 

I got the impression that whatever Paul delivered to Akley was what implicated Elodie and her husband. That's definitely not what I thought as the scene played out, I thought for sure that Paul was sealing Frank and Charlie's fates. Abby did not have the papers with her when she visited Elodie; the part where she eyes the trap door was a red herring for the viewers I think.

[peeayebee]

I watched the replay last night so I caught those scenes I missed. Reading your post, Tim McD, now I'm confused. I thought Paul was giving Aikley info showing that Frank and Charlie were working together. I thought that Abby somehow did get the papers and planted them under the floor. As she watched Elodie being pushed into the car, I thought Abby looked responsible for it. Also, I thought Charlie was surprised that Abby did it. I think he had regretted asking her and hadn't expected or wanted her to do it.

[kay1864]

I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as that

 

Agreed.  I think she has a high libido (witness her romps with Charlie in earlier eps), and has discovered she's bisexual.  Plus she's not getting enough attention from Charlie, so...

 

I thought that Abby somehow did get the papers and planted them under the floor. As she watched Elodie being pushed into the car, I thought Abby looked responsible for it. 

 

My take as well.  I hope we find out what happens to Elodie.  Shame for her to go to prison.  Him too, but especially her.

[Tim McD]

I thought that Abby somehow did get the papers and planted them under the floor.

 

 

That's what I thought at first but when she returned home to Charlie he was looking pretty bummed (because Abby wouldn't plant the papers) and when they heard the MPs arrive outside, Charlie looked like he knew it was all over for him. When they saw it was Elodie and Dickhead being taken away, Charlie looked genuinely surprised. Having said that, next week's episode is bound to prove me totally wrong.  My guess for who the spy is: Fritz. Because his name is FRITZ, duh!

[ganesh]

Ganesh, Abby's queer. No real way around that. Queer is an umbrella term and if you are an adult that loves having sex with someone of the same sex you are queer.

 

Oh, there's plenty of ways around that. No one's sexuality is that precise and rigidly defined. I don't think one same sex affair is definitive proof, however, and I don't think the show is exploring what it means to be queer. Additionally, if one doesn't identify themselves as queer, bisexual, etc., then you can define it for them all you want, but that doesn't make it so. 

 

I feel that the relationship is a way in which Abby is reacting to learning a lock-step sort of life is not the only possibility.

I think she has a high libido (witness her romps with Charlie in earlier eps), and has discovered she's bisexual.

This is just as likely an interpretation as Abby being queer, and I don't think the show intended it to be more than that. Sometimes a fling is just a fling, regardless if it's same-sex or not. Honestly, she can fuck whomever she wants. I don't really care. The show is about the race to build the atomic bomb. She can go on Masters of Sex if she wants to explore. But to definitively establish her sexuality on highly subjective interpretations of what we've seen just isn't accurate. 

[shapeshifter]

Agreed.  I think she has a high libido (witness her romps with Charlie in earlier eps), and has discovered she's bisexual.  Plus she's not getting enough attention from Charlie, so...

 

My take as well.  I hope we find out what happens to Elodie.  Shame for her to go to prison.  Him too, but especially her.

Although I "liked" this entire post, I would like Elodie's husband to go to prison--just because I think he's a horrible person. Good job, Actor Who Is Playing Him!

[dubbel zout]

Good job, Actor Who Is Playing Him!

 

Josh Cooke. It amused me to see him play the über-Wasp here because on Hart of Dixie, he played Zoe's über-menschy New York boyfriend.

Edited October 8, 2014 by dubbel zout

[dohe]

What I like in the representation of the two major queer characters, Glen and Abby, and the recurring queer character, Elodie, is how their storylines touch on the perception of queer individuals in that time period, how queer sexuality would be viewed after the war, and how the same attitudes still crop up in the perception of queer individuals today. 

 

The loathsome notions that queer men, such as Glen, were weak, could not be trusted, were self-absorbed, and would betray people were prevalent in the 1940's.  When gay men did betray their country, such as Kim Philby in the UK, it was taken as proof all gay men were likely to do that.  However Glen is depicted as strong, proud of his country, loyal to his friends (in fact it is a failure by Frank to be confide in him that causes their rift), and is willing to look after not only friends such as Liza but be helpful to the competition such as Charlie in the bar.  Glen is a character that undermines the notions of weakness that are assigned to gay men by many people. 

 

The loathsome attempts to trivialize queer women, such as Abby, and their feelings is also mocked.  At one point, Abby says that being with Elodie is not an affair, an attempt by a queer woman to delegitimize her feelings.  However Abby comes to recognize her feelings and desires are legitimate, they are not trivial, and they are a part of her being.  That recognition is what makes this episode so sad.  She has just awakened only to be confronted the expectations she and others place on herself. Women entering sexual relationships with other women is still often met with a immense and even comically predictable lack of respect.  Words such as "experimenting" (a word used seemingly only for women who enter romances with women) and "it's a phase", excuses such as she was "bored" or needed a "distraction" are offered up in a consistent way they just aren't when a woman is with a man.  And let us not forget that there is the she is such a victim of her sex drive she will even have sex with women.

 

Then there is Elodie, which plays on another concept.  That is of the predatory lesbian or bisexual woman who seduces poor straight women by fooling them and manipulating them.  Yet again the show holds up such idiocy to ridicule.  Besides committing infidelity, Elodie is a rather nice and loving person to Abby.  There is nothing to indicate she is an evil person.  Their romance is not a fling or distraction to Abby.  It is too real which Abby very much knows.  What is also too real is how her life can be devastated if she goes through with a desire to run away.  Yet again it is relevant to our times in that the notion of lesbians and bisexual women as predators who manipulate straight women holds form still today.

 

And here is where it gets sharp.  The end of so much lesbian storylines, particularly the lesbian pulp fiction of the 1950's, was of the straight woman in the arms of her boyfriend/husband who has rescued her from the predatory lesbian (who often dies).  In this case, the queer woman (as her sexuality is treated as respect and not some brainwashing) locks her husband out as it is the other queer woman who is presented as the real victim (in this case a victim of immorality visited upon her).  This revisionist storyline mocks the clichés of the past and finds a truth, as does Glen's story, of the burdens placed on queer individuals. 

 

I love Manhattan's willingness to touch on this.  They could have easily worried about the usual whines of I wish it wouldn't go there, the overt hostility and the utter, thorough lack of reason for that hostility.  Good for the show that it didn't. 

 

I actually like all the major characters.  Even Charlie, who is a major league, self-absorbed jerk has some humanity.  Most of my friends who have nothing but disgust for him.  However I see Charlie as someone who has the possibility to grow up and become a human being with integrity.  While it is tough to watch the scummy, patronizing ways he treats his wife and others, I see more someone who is bigtime immature and socially awkward than I do someone who is not redeemable.  Hopefully the evil act he did will make him confront who he wants to be. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2014 by dohe

[renatae]

That's what I thought at first but when she returned home to Charlie he was looking pretty bummed (because Abby wouldn't plant the papers) and when they heard the MPs arrive outside, Charlie looked like he knew it was all over for him. When they saw it was Elodie and Dickhead being taken away, Charlie looked genuinely surprised. Having said that, next week's episode is bound to prove me totally wrong.  My guess for who the spy is: Fritz. Because his name is FRITZ, duh!

 

Still not sure what to make of that scene. Charlie began apologizing to Abby, saying he should never have involved her and should have listened to his conscience. On the one hand, I felt it meant he was taking back what he asked her to do, but looking at it another way, "I should never have involved you" implies that she consented.

 

Apparently she took the papers with her to give her an excuse to go to Elodie's. She had no intention of planting them until she realized what she would be giving up if she ran off with Elodie. I don't know why she couldn't have decided just to leave. Perhaps she understood that she and Charlie were really in danger from Mr. Elodie. I think that she must have planted them, since she was not at all surprised when the MPs showed up.

[renatae]

I know. And her continual whining about being stuck in the middle of nowhere. I genuinely sympathize with hating the isolation, but on the other hand, THERE'S A WAR ON. Sacrifices need to be made. Stop being an immature, selfish brat.

 

 

 

I've been waiting for her to use her oft-repeated plea to "go work for daddy." With the secrets, I can't figure out how she can be so dense, much less feel so singled out, since in the first episode, it was established to her and to us that none of the wives have a clue.

 

Of course, except for Mrs. Ackley, we learn. Between her and the "no Ingles" maid, I haven't decided which yet. Frank goes into excruciating detail with his supposedly non English speaking paramour.

Edited October 9, 2014 by renatae

[shapeshifter]

Apparently she took the papers with her to give her an excuse to go to Elodie's. She had no intention of planting them until she realized what she would be giving up if she ran off with Elodie. I don't know why she couldn't have decided just to leave. Perhaps she understood that she and Charlie were really in danger from Mr. Elodie. I think that she must have planted them, since she was not at all surprised when the MPs showed up.

It seems odd they wouldn't have had her briefly flash back to the pictures from Germany, but I guess that wasn't her motive.

[StalkerNinja]

Akley becomes vulnerable when he tries to fix Thin Man's shortcomings.

Edited October 13, 2014 by StalkerNinja

[janeta]

Apropos of nothing--I really like the music in this show. Further in trivia-- do we know if they're doing another season?

[MiamiGuy]

Not sure if this is the right place to put this but Ashley Zuckerman, who plays Charlie, is also in another series at the moment, 'The Code,' on the Audience Network (through DirecTV). It's a contemporary political thriller set in Australia. It's good and his character is quite different from Charlie. Not sure how many people are watching either of his shows but both are quite nice for the resume.

[MyLisa]

So...  the mystery envelope to Oppenheimer that Akley tossed a couple episodes back.  A resignation?  A confession that Thin Man would fail?  Will we ever know?

[kay1864]

Anyone else think it odd how calmly Winter reacted to Akley pointing a gun at him?  And then being surprised that Akley shot himself?

[peeayebee]

Yeah, I noticed that too. Bugged me that he showed no fear, and that he had no clue that Aikley would kill himself.

 

So Abby confirmed (to us) that she planted the papers to frame Elodie and her hubby.

 

I was disappointed that Charlie and Helen hooked up.

 

Can someone explain what's going on with Glen, esp betw him and Frank? I guess I missed why Glen left the group.

 

I find it hard to believe that once Liza told everyone she was diagnosed as neurotic and taking medication, anyone would listen to her. I understand that what she was saying resonated with many of them, but still. Maybe in future eps we'll see people using that against her. I thought the other candidates were too comical, like they'd just come from a Pawnee town meeting.

[whiporee]

I think the envelope was him telling Oppie it wasn't going to work. 

 

Funny. I thought Oppie was a lot more involved in this than he apparently was. 

 

The guy playing Aikley did a great job of showing his desperation both with Charlie and with Frank. 

 

Abby has an interesting way of welcoming new neighbors. Sort of the reverse Welcome Wagon. 

Colonel Duck has a crappy job, but I like him as a character. CIA (were they even the CIA back then?) Toby also has a crappy job, but I like him much less. 

 

Amazing the fuss made over 1.2 grams of anything. 

 

Out of all the shows this year, this has become my favorite. 

[dubbel zout]

CIA (were they even the CIA back then?)

 

OSS, if this is post-1942. Before that, intelligence and espionage activities weren't formally coordinated between the armed forces.

[renatae]

Color me blown away  by the fact that Akley, well, blew himself away. Actually, I was finding all that desperation difficult to believe. Who in their right mind would blame a scientist for the way physics work? I get that he was promoting and backing a loser that he believed in, but how much humiliation should be cast on someone for holding an erroneous idea in a new field? Likewise, whoever called the collaboration an act of sabotage was being OTT. I forget if it was Ackely or Colonel "Duck," but I think that was Ackley as well. (Thanks, Whipporee, for "Colonel Duck." I had not realized it was Duck, although I knew I knew him!)

 

Wasn't Glen reassigned over the suspicion that he was in cahoots with his gay scientist friend who went to the other side? I'm terrible at remembering important details like this.

 

Abby sure went off the rails. She's blaming everyone for her actions. I think Charlie hooked up with Helen because of all the rejection Abby has been giving him, as he stated, for about six months, predating the betrayal. Still disappointed, but not surprised, by the hook up.

Edited October 14, 2014 by renatae

[renatae]

No, I don't think it was her motive. It seemed more self protection and to be able to keep contact with her child.

[shapeshifter]

Wow. This my favorite show too.

...I was disappointed that Charlie and Helen hooked up....

I immediately said to myself: They're all gonna die of syphilis.

I find it hard to believe that once Liza told everyone she was diagnosed as neurotic and taking medication, anyone would listen to her. I understand that what she was saying resonated with many of them, but still....

She was light years ahead of the others in being articulate, but we didn't actually hear any applause for her because they cut away, so we don't really know what their response was (except for the guy from Frank's team who was grinning, mesmerized.

What was the word or phrase Abby uttered as she walked out of Elodie's old house after slapping the new girl?

[dubbel zout]

Akley told Charlie he didn't care if Thin Man or implosion won the war, so why was he so unsupportive of Frank? Jealousy? Hatred? If Akley really couldn't work with Frank, why didn't he send him somewhere else?

 

Likewise, whoever called the collaboration an act of sabotage was being OTT.

 

I still don't understand why the two groups couldn't talk to one another about their work.

 

Wasn't Glen reassigned over the suspicion that he was in cahoots with his gay scientist friend who went to the other side? I'm terrible at remembering important details like this.

 

Yes, and he was also concerned that his own homosexuality might cause problems.

 

What was the word or phrase Abby uttered as she walked out of Elodie's old house after slapping the new girl?

 

"Wake up."

[dohe]

Color me blown away  by the fact that Akley, well, blew himself away. Actually, I was finding all that desperation difficult to believe. Who in their right mind would blame a scientist for the way physics work? I get that he was promoting and backing a loser that he believed in, but how much humiliation should be cast on someone for holding an erroneous idea in a new field? Likewise, whoever called the collaboration an act of sabotage was being OTT. I forget if it was Ackely or Colonel "Duck," but I think that was Ackley as well. (Thanks, Whipporee, for "Colonel Duck." I had not realized it was Duck, although I knew I knew him!

 

Wasn't Glen reassigned over the suspicion that he was in cahoots with his gay scientist friend who went to the other side? I'm terrible at remembering important details like this.

 

Abby sure went off the rails. She's blaming everyone for her actions. I think Charlie hooked up with Helen because of all the rejection Abby has been giving him, as he stated, for about six months, predating the betrayal. Still disappointed, but not surprised, by the hook up.

I wasn't surprised about Akley just because if a person carries a rifle around with them a whole episode, at some point I figure it is going to be used.  I wish we would have found out a different way that Akley killed himself.  Once the show did not move to the next sequence as Frank walked to his vehicle I was thinking when comes the suicide shot.

 

Yeah why is Abby blaming Charlie?  All he did was put her in a position where she felt to she had to commit an unconscionable, immoral act to save him.  Unless she has no soul, I would hope she is pissed off at Charlie.  I'd say great move getting a divorce but she is probably the most compelling character on the show.   

 

Anyways she was right in the confrontation with Charlie in that he allowed himself to become a pawn.  Of course both the confrontation with the new neighbor and the confrontation with Charlie have to do with anger towards herself.  She allowed Charlie to manipulate her in to doing something so horrific it will torment her and leave her with deep regret the rest of her life.  She is aware that she allowed herself to become Charlie's pawn.  As for the neighbor, that was a brilliant sequence.  We open from the shot used the first time she saw Elodie.  She goes in to this location where she had felt romantic and sexual fulfillment and it is now barren due to her betraying herself.  When the neighbor comes in, Abby feels two things.  She feels hostility that someone is taking over her lover's house which impacts her even further with the permanence of her own actions and she sees, in the new neighbor, her own cheerful ignorance.  She strikes out at the neighbor who did nothing and it is possibly than she realizes she has to get out of this screwed up environment.

 

Charlie is such a scumbag.   I thought Frank and Abby's cheating was wrong.  However when you have forced your wife to betray her humanity, it is probably time to reflect how you have exploited your wife in the worst possible way.  It is not time go get laid.   

Edited October 14, 2014 by dohe

[bentley]

I think the scene with Aikley's wife explained why Aikley couldn't or wouldn't work with Frank. He needs the glory so he can move up politically, and his wife is a Lady Macbeth type who is egging him on all the way. He doesn't want to share the spotlight, and probably fears that Frank would get most of the credit.

 

I didn't think Frank was unafraid when the gun was pointed at him. He was bluffing all the way. You can see his body sag a little bit with relief when he gets back in his car. I didn't guess suicide. I thought we'd see Frank get shot in the back walking to his car.

 

What happened to the guy with glasses on Frank's team? The one who was the closest to...Henry?(the guy accused of spying). It looked like it was headed to a showdown with Frank a couple of episodes ago and then it was dropped.

 

I thought Aikley seemed very forgiving of Charlie's escapades this whole season. Now it makes more sense. It was a win win for him.  Either Charlie fixed the problems, and Aikley still got credit for the bomb, or Charlie failed, and Aikley could lay the blame at his door and escape unscathed.

 

I wonder if the black scientist/physicist showing up means Helen's deceit will be exposed.

 

Glen rocked this episode. Loved the whole "One of us is going to go on to do great things here" scene.

 

I love this show. 

[shapeshifter]

What was the word or phrase Abby uttered as she walked out of Elodie's old house after slapping the new girl?

"Wake up."

Perfect.

Editing to explain: The words "Wake up" were perfect because without them, the slap would have been too much, and even "Sorry" wouldn't have made it work. So, good writing!

Edited October 14, 2014 by shapeshifter

[renatae]

I wasn't surprised about Akley just because if a person carries a rifle around with them a whole episode, at some point I figure it is going to be used.  I wish we would have found out a different way that Akley killed himself.  Once the show did not move to the next sequence as Frank walked to his vehicle I was thinking when comes the suicide shot.

 

Yeah why is Abby blaming Charlie?  All he did was put her in a position where she felt to she had to commit an unconscionable, immoral act to save him.  Unless she has no soul, I would hope she is pissed off at Charlie.  I'd say great move getting a divorce but she is probably the most compelling character on the show.   

 

Anyways she was right in the confrontation with Charlie in that he allowed himself to become a pawn.  Of course both the confrontation with the new neighbor and the confrontation with Charlie have to do with anger towards herself.  She allowed Charlie to manipulate her in to doing something so horrific it will torment her and leave her with deep regret the rest of her life.  She is aware that she allowed herself to become Charlie's pawn.  As for the neighbor, that was a brilliant sequence.  We open from the shot used the first time she saw Elodie.  She goes in to this location where she had felt romantic and sexual fulfillment and it is now barren due to her betraying herself.  When the neighbor comes in, Abby feels two things.  She feels hostility that someone is taking over her lover's house which impacts her even further with the permanence of her own actions and she sees, in the new neighbor, her own cheerful ignorance.  She strikes out at the neighbor who did nothing and it is possibly than she realizes she has to get out of this screwed up environment.

 

Charlie is such a scumbag.   I thought Frank and Abby's cheating was wrong.  However when you have forced your wife to betray her humanity, it is probably time to reflect how you have exploited your wife in the worst possible way.  It is not time go get laid.   

 

I also figured the gun would be used - I just figured Akley was going to use it on first, Charlie, and then Frank.

 

When Abby went to Elodie's, it appeared she had every intention of ignoring Charlie's request. She only changed her mind after seeing the children. At that point, she could have decided to divorce him, and left without planting the papers. I understand she felt pressured and I understand that he should never have asked her to do what he did. However, she was already not feeling much connection to him, and, secondarily, "The devil made me do it" is not an excuse for betraying a friend in such a horrible manner.

 

"She is aware that she allowed herself to become Charlie's pawn." Exactly. She allowed herself.

 

For his part, Charlie relented and apologized for asking her, and begged her forgiveness, albeit too late. Abby, on the other hand, decided to do the deed and then place all the blame at his feet. (Not that I am excusing him in any way. But we are all responsible, ultimately, for our own actions.) I get what she was going through while wandering through Elodie's apartment, only to run into someone just like her former self as a "replacement" tenant for Elodie. But, to slap the poor girl? "Wake up!" would have sufficed.

[OnceSane]

Frank is given a life-changing opportunity; Charlie finds himself in the U.S. Army's hot seat.

[corin]

The loathsome attempts to trivialize queer women, such as Abby, and their feelings is also mocked.  At one point, Abby says that being with Elodie is not an affair, an attempt by a queer woman to delegitimize her feelings.  However Abby comes to recognize her feelings and desires are legitimate, they are not trivial, and they are a part of her being.  That recognition is what makes this episode so sad.  She has just awakened only to be confronted the expectations she and others place on herself. Women entering sexual relationships with other women is still often met with a immense and even comically predictable lack of respect.  Words such as "experimenting" (a word used seemingly only for women who enter romances with women) and "it's a phase", excuses such as she was "bored" or needed a "distraction" are offered up in a consistent way they just aren't when a woman is with a man.  And let us not forget that there is the she is such a victim of her sex drive she will even have sex with women.

 

Then there is Elodie, which plays on another concept.  That is of the predatory lesbian or bisexual woman who seduces poor straight women by fooling them and manipulating them.  Yet again the show holds up such idiocy to ridicule.  Besides committing infidelity, Elodie is a rather nice and loving person to Abby.  There is nothing to indicate she is an evil person.  Their romance is not a fling or distraction to Abby.  It is too real which Abby very much knows.  What is also too real is how her life can be devastated if she goes through with a desire to run away.  Yet again it is relevant to our times in that the notion of lesbians and bisexual women as predators who manipulate straight women holds form still today.

 

And here is where it gets sharp.  The end of so much lesbian storylines, particularly the lesbian pulp fiction of the 1950's, was of the straight woman in the arms of her boyfriend/husband who has rescued her from the predatory lesbian (who often dies).  In this case, the queer woman (as her sexuality is treated as respect and not some brainwashing) locks her husband out as it is the other queer woman who is presented as the real victim (in this case a victim of immorality visited upon her).  This revisionist storyline mocks the clichés of the past and finds a truth, as does Glen's story, of the burdens placed on queer individuals. 

 

I love this whole post so much.  I've seen Abby's sexuality trivialised in the way that you outlined a number of times since the storyline started.  I have been increasingly impressed with the way the show has handled it.  I initially thought that the storyline might be the kind of tease we see again and again.  But with each passing episode it has become clear that the creative team have respect for queer sexuality and that they are serious about Abby's story.

 

If Abby were just bored, or sex-starved, or only feeling alienated from her husband then why wouldn't they have just shown her having an affair with a man?  We saw Crosley hitting on her and she wasn't interested.  I'm sure there's no shortage of men on the hill who would have had an affair with her.  They chose to have her be attracted to a woman, they chose to have her act on those feelings, and they showed the attraction to be romantic and sexual.  They chose to have it be important enough to her that she would consider giving up her life to have it.  To say otherwise is to completely misread the text.

[dohe]

Renatae, Charlie is the Father of Abby's child.   Even when a couple is divorced (and at this point Charlie and Abby aren't), there is a concern over the welfare of the child that causes concern for the ex.  You may not still love them.  But you know your child does and you know there could be major ramifications for the child if the spouse is affected.  Abby was put in a horrible position and, seeing children, she was forced to confront many things.  A major one is how this could affect her child.  Charlie placed that burden on her.  It really doesn't matter all that much that Charlie is now sorry or begs forgiveness.  The act is done.  It is too late to take back that in a moment of crisis he exploited his spouse to destroy people just as it is too late for Abby to take back her actions.  The "devil" didn't make her do it.  Charlie was the one who forced her on the spot and in a moment of crisis, she did something horrible.  Now I don't excuse her of her actions completely (as my posts here and on the "Tangiers" thread make clear).  However if there is a massive scumbag in this scenario it is Charlie. And while Abby is ultimately responsible for her actions, she is also very much a victim of Charlie's handiwork.  

 

As for the slap, I don't think anyone here has defended Abby doing that to the neighbor.  Explaining where Abby was coming from, her anger at herself and misery of losing Elodie, is not the same as defending someone.  For example, you stating why Charlie asked Abby to commit that immoral act would not be a defense.  It would simply be an explanation of where Charlie was coming from. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by dohe

[applecrisp]

 

 

What happened to the guy with glasses on Frank's team? The one who was the closest to...Henry?(the guy accused of spying). It looked like it was headed to a showdown with Frank a couple of episodes ago and then it was dropped.

 

I really like this guy and also wondered where he had gone.  Hope he's back next episode.

 

Also, what happened with Crossley?  Was anything resolved?

[dubbel zout]

I think the scene with Aikley's wife explained why Aikley couldn't or wouldn't work with Frank. He needs the glory so he can move up politically, and his wife is a Lady Macbeth type who is egging him on all the way. He doesn't want to share the spotlight, and probably fears that Frank would get most of the credit.

So why not send Frank somewhere else? Admittedly, I've always found office politics petty and tiresome, so I have some built-in exasperation about it.

 

I did like that Frank said at the end no one person would be singled out for praise, it would be a "We built this" effort. Realistically, if anyone gets the glory, it's going to be Oppenheimer, not the worker bees, as was mostly the case. He was the public face of the program (as much as there was a "public" face at the time).

[Julie23]

I love this show so much. I never thought watching people write formulas on blackboards would be so entertaining. And it continues to surprise me with each episode. Even the unlikeable characters hold my interest. I never thought Aikely would kill himself, but I was waiting for the gun shot when Frank was sitting in his car.  

[Lawgiver]

Renewed!

 

http://io9.com/atomic-bomb-show-manhattan-renewed-for-a-second-season-1646269154

[Rhetorica]

Great news!