S04.E10: The Children

[Catherinewriter]

I don't get the Cat hate; can someone explain. I know that character like and dislike are very subjective and can affect people differently (well, except for Joffery, Walter Frey, Ramsey Bolton, Littlefinger, etc.) Well, I've painted myself into a corner. To go back to the beginning, can someone explain the Cat hate? Thanks.

 

And to whomever put up the dialogue among the dragons, really funny, I'm still laughing. That was a terrible scene when Dany imprisoned them. Just awful.

 

I think the question of whether Shae was a plant or was only roped in after Joffery was killed, and whether or not she truly loved Tyrion, will drag on for a long time. For awhile I thought she must have loved him, because every time (two or three times) he offered her an out, free, cared for, etc., she refused. But now I realize she would have refused even if she were working for Tywin. I hate that this might be the case. I wonder if we'll ever know for sure, since Tyrion has killed her.   

 

I hate the way the show disposes of characters as if they're used kleenex (i.e. Jojen). He was sweet, loyal, committed to Bran's safety and goal, etc. Another disposal that continues to rankle me is Roz. It wasn't in the books ( hell, SHE wasn't in the books) so STF was that small arc all about?

[TexasChic]

 

I agree that it's odd that Tywin acted so stunned when he had the truth thrown in his face since he knew the incest was true in the scene with Jaime where he talks about Jaime fathering children with the last name of Lannister.

I felt like this confirmed what I originally thought about that scene, that Tywin was saying he wanted grandchildren with the last name of Lannister to carry on the family name, unlike his existing grandchildren who were Baratheon's (believing they actually ARE Baratheon's). He wanted Jaime to get married and father some children, which he couldn't do as one of the Kingsguard because he wasn't allowed to marry.

Edited June 16, 2014 by TexasChic

[blixie]

 

I thought Tyrion had plenty of motivation in wanting to settle the score with his father.

 

Exactly HOW did he intend to settle the score when he walked down the hallway without a weapon in site? I honestly see nothing in Tyrion's character that indicates he would risk his life and freedom to go give Tywin yet another witty bitchy talking to. He had no sense of urgency, he barely even seemed angry. The question is not whether he had a good reason to kill Tywin in general, he had many, the question is why in that exact delicate and precious moment he decided to go wandering about the tower unarmed to confront his father, over stuff he had already confronted him about many times. He was in the neighborhood and feeling kinda daffy?

 

I think they simply love the Lannister's knew they were losing Lawful Neutral Definitely NOT a Villain Tywin and were loathe to create any unnecessary discord amongst the remaining Lannister's, when they can still milk it for maybe another year. The Jamie confession scene ruins that. I'd also argue it's to continue the Glinda-fication of Cersei, can't let Tyrion castigate her in Jamie's eyes. Oh no, Cersei/Jamie need to be closer than ever, a little rape be damned. They couldn't let Tyrion look too terrible when he killed Shae, so she pulled a knife.

 

Good God it's SO annoying.

 

 

I don't get the Cat hate; can someone explain.

 

For me it was her treatment of Jon coupled with her being really arrogant about what smart or stupid strategy when the entire war is started by her seizing Tyrion and taking him prisoner.  She's so concerned about Ned and her girls that she'll take a far more powerful families son hostage. I don't really hate her though per se, I just think she SUCKS, and has an over inflated sense of herself for much of the first two books. She finally has bit of hubris when she let's Jamie go and her father dies, but she's unbearably smug for someone so otherwise stupid.

Edited June 16, 2014 by blixie

[TexasChic]

 

I did notice a number of the reviewers felt that Tyrion murdered Shae.  That they didn't view it as self-defense.

I didn't see it as self-defense, I just thought she was grabbing the knife just in case she needed to defend herself, because she had no idea what Tyrion was about to do. 

[Myriad]

Not to distract from the GoT discussion, but I'm a Mad Men fan too and I haven't heard this angle -- Weiner changing things to suit the audience. In regard to which character? Don?? PM me if possible (I haven't explored all the Previously functions thus far, so I don't know if we actually have that option...)

No, on the contrary, Weiner is doing his own thing and not at all listening to the audience, like LOST showrunners unfortunately did.  It was just a joke, the poster said to me that showrunners can't listen to the audience wants and wishes, otherwise the show loses in quality.  Mathew Weiner totally agrees with that statement. ;)

[CrashTextDummie]

Well, it clearly wasn't and I don't think the show was ambiguous about this. If anything, Shae was grabbing the dagger in self defense.

[Catherinewriter]

Blixie, thanks for the Cat explanation. I can't believe I completely forgot how much I disliked her at the beginning of the series for her treatment of Jon.  But then she grew on me, and I loved the relationship, short as it was (to us) between her and Ned, whom I adored. So thanks.

 

I've decided on my default response to anything going bad in my life:  "Fucking Drogon!" 

[Greta]

.

 

Unless Tysha was looking all along to excuse Tyrion because she loved him, really loved him, and so would not believe he was doing this thing to her. This doesn't change the horror of what happened to her, but I could easily believe that she would have mixed feelings of anger, pity, love, and hate, for Tyrion, especially after having such a long time to think about it. I'm really not expecting her to spit venom. She is from a different world.

 

Tyrion's anger towards Jaime is the result of wanting justice for Tysha, and being unable to fathom how to get it, unless it's to deprive himself of Jaime, and to punish Jaime for his role in letting it happen. Punishing himself for his own role in it is really, really getting old in the books, and I frankly hope they don't go there, because it's so gross and so counterproductive.

And if Tysha actually really feels nothing but hatred for Tyrion, that would make her wrong somehow?  And Tyrion's anger towards Jaime is all about how Jaime's lie deprived TYRION of someone who loved him. As for punishing himself getting old, for me to see that first I'd have to see Tyrion punishing himself at all. In sum, I disagree except "gross and counterproductive" as general terms towards Tyrion's current arc in the books I certainly agree with.

 

ETA: Random thought: Will the Hound take the place of Hyle Hunt next season?

Edited June 17, 2014 by Greta

[screamin]

All they have to do is let Tyrion actually find Tysha next season. Tysha can tell him that she was no whore and voila, Tyrion figures out what Jaime did and has his motivation.

 

I like that notion. I can even imagine that Varys would lead Tyrion to wherever Tysha is so that he can tip Tyrion's allegiance against Jaime and his family. HOWEVER, it's hard for me to imagine why Tyrion would believe her over Jaime. His first suspicion would be that Tysha had been bribed by Varys to lie - because after all she was a whore and apparently according to the show All Whores are Lying Whores. (It still pisses me off that the showrunners didn't feel that Shae's actions required any dialogue from her to clarify it - to me they're handwaving it by implying that all prostitutes are alike and therefore their motivations are all venal and require no explanation except that they're whores. Which I hate).

Edited June 17, 2014 by screamin

[Independent George]

Why is everyone so insistent on having Lady Stoneheart this season? It makes so much more sense storywise to have her early/mid S5, after we've had a few episodes of buildup in the riverlands.

[Fable]

I hope Jaqen H'gar shows up again next season or at some point further along. Or more specifically, getting the same actor back who originally played him. I need more pretty on GoT!

 

I really loved him, but I don't see how they can logistically bring him back storywise.  My understanding is that faceless men go from one face to another.  But one thing I don't know, is if the assassin can return to their original face ever, taking on various faces only as needed.  In that case, if Jagen was the assassin's original face and he only took on other faces to take out his victims, I could see it, otherwise, A Man is gone from A Show!  Based on what is in the books, I have a feeling once you give up your identity, you can't go back since there is a big deal surrounding the idea of being "no one", even giving up your possessions.

 

I think the show does fine with the pretty, but, hey, more never hurts.  

[magdalene]

 

I don't get the Cat hate; can someone explain.

 

 

For me it comes down to her self-righteousness combined with (just like her dead hubby) making all the wrong decisions. The living woman had terrible judgment and ironically the undead one continues with this bone-headed tradition.

 

I am aware part of the fandom sees UnCat as a sort of "hell yeah!" vengeance demon but I see both the living and the undead version as a cautionary tale of bad judgment, bad luck and vengeance terribly gone wrong.

[Carrie Ann]

I love Cat, aside from her treatment of Jon, and it's actually for that reason that I hate Lady Stoneheart in concept and practice. I hate that Cat wasn't just allowed to die, and that as Zombie Cat, she is so unlike her live self. To me, Cat was fiercely defensive of her family, but would never have been so merciless. She would never have gone straight to executing Brienne, without being willing to listen to her side. I just feel like if Cat had a choice, she'd rather be dead than to be this silent, monstrous killing machine. And that bugs me.

 

Also, I just don't get it, because Beric pretty much seemed like himself, if a little haunted (heh). Not sure why Cat just turned into a vengeance demon when she was resurrected. (And you can try to tell me that it's because of the Red Wedding and believing her children had all been killed, but I don't buy it.)

[hypnotoad]

 

Why is everyone so insistent on having Lady Stoneheart this season? It makes so much more sense storywise to have her early/mid S5, after we've had a few episodes of buildup in the riverlands.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I thought the ending and reveal with Lady Stoneheart in the book was really surprising. I really couldn't imagine them ending this season any other way. Count me as someone thoroughly disappointed at the exclusion. Granted, they haven't exactly followed up with any of the Fray stuff this season, so it might have been problematic having Lady Stoneheart show up, but still I expected that to be the cliff hanger. I really did.

 

 

Also, I just don't get it, because Beric pretty much seemed like himself, if a little haunted (heh). Not sure why Cat just turned into a vengeance demon when she was resurrected. (And you can try to tell me that it's because of the Red Wedding and believing her children had all been killed, but I don't buy it.)

 

Maybe it's a combination of believing all her children have been killed and having been dead a bit longer than Beric when she's resurrected?

 

Overall, I did enjoy this episode. I did find the Tyrion stuff a bit underwhelming. I was expecting a lot more out of those scenes.

[blixie]

 

To me, Cat was fiercely defensive of her family, but would never have been so merciless.

 

But she was pretty quick to judge when it came to Tryion, he was Lannister, and an ugly dwarf, so he was guilty, when UnCat meets Brienne again she's brandishing a Lannister sword and somewhat going forth in Jamie's name as well as Cat's, which I do think might blind her. Cat made a deal with the Lanninster Devil but she never imagined Brienne would actually *bond* with the guy who killed her kid, and I do think she'd be a gigantic bitch to Brienne if not kill her with a swiftness. But like I said, I'm not a Catelyn fan. 

 

I agree though that Cat seems more unlike herself than Beric seemed unlike Beric, perhaps that is a consequence of him passing his light to her vs. Thoros resurrecting her directly with a kiss of life.

Edited June 17, 2014 by blixie

[Skeeter22]

I just realized that Tyrion and Jaime parting on good terms really makes Tyrion's subsequent killing spree a huge betrayal of his brother. Jaime risks his neck to help Tyrion escape, and Tyrion repays him by wandering off to confront Tywin, making the chance of getting caught much greater. That's the second time this season Tyrion has messed up Jaime's attempts to help him, all because of Tyrion's pride and daddy issues.

[benteen]

I didn't think about that but you're right.  Tyrion has actually been a shitty brother this season.

 

One other thing that I liked...Pycelle getting all pissy when Cersei threw him out of his chamber.  Even I was glad he got annoyed with her.

Edited June 17, 2014 by benteen

[Pete Martell]

And yeah, the scenes between Cersie/Tywin and Cersie/Jaime didn’t really make sense in terms of how the plot progressed in the books, so interested to see how they work that out next season.  Particularly Jaime’s disillusionment with Cersie.  If Tyrion isn’t going to tell Jaime about Cersie unfaithfulness, who else will, or will they simply have Jaime walk in on Cersei and someone (Lancel?).

 

I think Cersei's done far worse than have casual sex. Within show canon, she's only had a relationship with Lancel, which ended months before Jaime's return. I'm hoping excising these lines, even if it may have been more about preserving the "bro" relationship between Jaime and Tyrion, may mean that Jaime's reasons for turning against Cersei don't involve slut-shaming.

 

I hate the way the show disposes of characters as if they're used kleenex (i.e. Jojen). He was sweet, loyal, committed to Bran's safety and goal, etc. Another disposal that continues to rankle me is Roz. It wasn't in the books ( hell, SHE wasn't in the books) so STF was that small arc all about?

 

I think the idea of the Ros story was supposed to be that she tried to play a game she couldn't understand, and she paid the price. Unfortunately, between the inherent misogyny which was already heavy in the text by that point (also seen with Talisa's role and death not long after), and the sexualized violence which the show seemed to both condemn and pat on the head, whatever message they were trying to tell got somewhat lost for me. I wish the show would have positive representations of sex workers to contrast with the ugliest messages (Ros, Shae), because right now this is very offputting and numbing as a viewer.

 

As for Jojen, I wish we could have seen more devastation from Bran, because for all the talk of Bran's selfishness, I do think he cared about Jojen. Those scenes weren't all that well-directed so I'm going to put some of it on Alex Graves, as I already don't like him so that's easy. As much as Jojen essentially lived only in service to another, I'm glad that his death at least gave Meera a chance to do things and feel things, as I think Ellie Kendrick is great and really a very different type of actress for the show, and I was happy to get to see more of her.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Pete Martell

[BusyOctober]

I read all the books, but it was so long ago that my memories are fuzzy.  LS eventually meets up w/ Brienne and I remember that the Brothers were going to hang her. Did Brienne die in the books??? I have a faint memory that Brienne lives but I can't remember.  If it isn't considered too spoilery can someone help me out here?  I also have no recollection of Qyburn reanimating/resurrecting the Mountain either.  I thought he just lingered in a slow painful smelly death.

 

I wish they had included the Tysha reveal as well.  It really would have sold the rage of Tyrion and his willingness to sever all Lanister ties if they had used that part of the story.

[blixie]

LSH offers Brienne the choice of killing Jamie (Sword) or hanging (Rope). She initially refuses to choose as either way she's breaking an oath, but right as she hangs she shouts out Sword. She is alive in ADWD runs across Jamie is seemingly planning to follow through with killing him.

 

In the books The Mountain suffers horribly and eventually seems to die, as Cersei has a head/skull delivered to Dorne/Doran Martell. But when she stands trial with the Sparrows, suddenly Qyburn has a champion named Sir Robert Strong who is every bit as huge as the Mountain, but who never eats food and is never seen w/o his helm. Bran also has a vision of a huge knight whose helm is "empty". The assumption is that Qyburn has reanimated The Mountain's dead corpse through his experiments. Whether he actually died, or if he has a head isn't clear, as it's possible Cersei sent the head of another person.

[mac123x]

Emilia Clarke gave some of her best work in years. I'm not sure how she has more chemistry with CGI dragons than any Daario, but she does.

 

Because the dragons are more realistic and lifelike?

 

 

It's the first mention I believe. Before all of them were King/Queen of the Andals and the First Men. Even in 4E06 when Dany's holding court she's the Queen of the Andals and the First Men with no mention of the Rhoynar. 

 

I think it may have just been a slip up, some writer put it in all her titles as they are in the books maybe. If it wasn't a mistake it's a stupid decision to start including it now, it makes it seem as if the title just came out of nowhere. They're just adding more confusion for the sake of confusion.

 

Maybe it's a running joke, that every time Dany is introduced she's added a new title.  "Kaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, Explorer of the Red Wastes, Frier of Warlocks..."

 

Did Brienne die in the books??? I have a faint memory that Brienne lives but I can't remember.

 

The Brotherhood / LSH gave her the choice of hanging or killing Jaime.  They started to hang her and her friends, but she yelled out a single word, then the chapter ended.  She then showed up in Jaime's last PoV chapter and led him off by himself.  Presumably she's leading him into a trap.

[Maximum Taco]

The Brotherhood / LSH gave her the choice of hanging or killing Jaime.  They started to hang her and her friends, but she yelled out a single word, then the chapter ended.  She then showed up in Jaime's last PoV chapter and led him off by himself.  Presumably she's leading him into a trap.

 

I don't even think it can even be called presumably. It's definitely a trap.

 

She tells Jaime that she found Sansa and she's with the Hound a day's ride from Pennytree, and that if they don't go together alone the Hound will kill Sansa. We of course know that this scenario is impossible. The Hound is either dead or on the Quiet Isle and no longer the Hound, and Sansa is in the Vale.

 

I can't see Brienne lying to jaime unless she's absolutely decided to kill him for Lady Stoneheart.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[BlackberryJam]

I think Jaime and Lady Stoneheart will be Brienne's big moment.  She'll end up breaking her vow to Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn because she loves Jaime.  It will be her Mad King moment.

 

I have a hard time thinking Jaime can't tell she's lying.  What happens with that really holds my interest.

[Holmbo]

I had really high expectations about this episode (except for the Tyrion Shae scene which I had extremely low ones for) and I wasn't disappointed. There was plenty of times that the show surprised me with changes but I liked most of them a lot.

 

It's interesting that they skipped the Tysha reveal. I was totally expecting it to be in there but as they got to the scene it felt ok to me that they left it out. It wouldn't have worked with the casual audience I believe. Also I had assumed that the show had built up Jaime and Tyrion interacting and really showing how much they care about each other for the sole purpose of tearing all that up with the Tysha reveal and them both parting hating each other. It was kinda refreshing that it didn't happen because the show gets almost predictable by building relationship and nice moments just so that it will be more emotional when they get destroyed. I feel that Tyrion had enough motivation to confront Tywin just based on him putting him through that whole farce of a trial. But I did feel it was quiet unclear that he chose to go to the tower of the hand. Which brings me to my one complaint about the episode:

Varys should have been there when Tyrion decided to go and confront Tywin. I liked that in the book it seems that Varys is trying to make Tyrion go to the tower. It makes Varys seem a better player that he takes advantage of every possibly situation like that. Also it would have made it more clear where Tyrion was going and offered an explanation about the hidden passage ways.

 

First off....Book Tyrion is officially dead.  Long live St. Tyrion.  Killing Shae in self-defense gave him an out.  But I will say that scene was appropriately brutal and well-acted by Dinklage.  This might sound creepy but the actress who played Shae (I can never remember the spelling) looked absolutely beautiful.

Haha yes I agree.
I have for quiet a while thought of book and show Tyrion as two separate characters. The thing is I like them both and I think they are each appropriate characters for the medium. Book Tyrion is always an entertaining read and his internal thoughts are often interesting. I even like him in most of DwD, where he has some reflections about identity which I feel is a big theme in the whole series. But in the show we wouldn't have gotten book Tyrion's thoughts anyway so I'm fine with them changing him into a more likable character on the level with Davos or Brienne.
Though I do hope that the murder of Shae and Tywin will have some effect on him. It would be unrealistic not to. And also in this show there's always something that makes a character a little bit hard to root for. In Tyrion's case it has been that his backing all the horrible things his family does and tries to win their approval. Now that he's left them he'd need some other kind of uncertainty, even if it's only him acting a bit self destructive or something.

By the way I didn't see Tyrion killing Shae as self defense. I felt like he was really shocked and was going to confront her about what she was doing there. She felt certain that he was going to attack him so she picked up a knife. I believe he could have backed of and left again by the trap door, he was still quiet far away from the bed. But he wanted to confront her and realized that the only way to do that at this point was physically.

I don't know what to say about Shae, because they abandoned most of the characterization they'd built up for her and she had become just a plot device for Tyrion, as she had been in the books (apparently). I get why Shae went for the knife, as the last time she saw Tyrion he was unhinged, but again it wasn't really about her. We didn't get to hear her talk about why she'd slept with Tywin, or about anything. She was just there to die, and I guess to push Tyrion to the point of murdering Tywin. 

Another thing I agree about. As mentioned I had very low expectations of the Tyrion Shae scene (I was afraid they where gonna keep it the same as in the book and pretend that the characters where the same) so I was pleasantly surprised by the changes. But it still baffles me how writers knew exactly where Shae was gonna end up and had three seasons to prepare for it and still offered no good explanation for the way she acted. It's not like book Shae is an interesting character. I feel like the writers tried to make her three dimensional and instead just made her inconsistent. But I've disliked the writing for Shae since season two so I'm kinda used to it. Before the episode aired I was thinking that they would need some scene with Shae and Tywin or something to explain her motivation but now as I've watched the episode I felt that it was better to keep it vague because I don't really think they had any good motivation figured out so this way every viewer can make their own interpretation which motivation they find most convincing.

 

Finally I was actually expecting LS to make an appearance. Everyone has been talking so much about it that it got me convinced and even a bit excited about it. As the episode came to an end I was expecting to get a scene introduction with some guys in Frey hats riding along at some road and then have them confronted and hanged. But it's probably a good idea to keep that until next season. I think that ones gonna have a big focus on the long term fall out of the red wedding. Boltons story line will show lots of the attitudes from the other north men about the whole thing and there's probably gonna be some check in with Edmure and the Frey's even though (not sure if info about future changes from book to show is spoilers)

even though it doesn't seem Jaime will spend much time in the Riverlands

[Avaleigh]

I didn't think about that but you're right. Tyrion has actually been a shitty brother this season.

One other thing that I liked...Pycelle getting all pissy when Cersei threw him out of his chamber. Even I was glad he got annoyed with her.

With the exception of Jaime, three of the Lannisters have made it a point to treat Pycelle like shit in some way, I have no problem imagining him becoming pro Tyrell or at the very least a thorn in Cersei's side once she begins to get on the wrong side of the HS.

Now that I've had a chance to watch the episode again I think I agree with the poster who said that Tywin didn't seem quite like himself. I feel like book Tywin could have easily flipped the conversation on Cersei in a way that would intimidate her (All right, let's tell Tommen right now; as of this moment your access to Tommen may only be permitted by my approval; the king is sending Jaime to _____ and he leaves tomorrow; your wedding to Loras will now take place *before* Tommen and Margaery's; what are you going to do after you tell everyone? Do you want Tommen to die? Myrcella? Do you plan on spending the rest of your days as an exile in some rat hole in Essos with your maimed brother?) I feel like there are any number of things he might have said to call her bluff so even though I very much enjoyed the "your legacy is a lie" moment, I think I would have preferred having a final moment of Tywin being strong, horrible, practical, etc than Cersei getting away with making such a hollow threat when her POV makes it seem unlikely that she'd give up the power without more of a fight. Jaime and Cersei could have fled with the kids back in season one but I don't think she would ever really consider something like that. Casterly Rock, sure, I can envision a scenario where she seeks refuge there with Tommen and/or Myrcella, but I can't see Cersei ever seriously fleeing to the east as Ned once suggested to her during the conversation in the godswood.

Tywin's death was disappointing. I also agree with those who point out how little sense it makes that Tyrion would risk his life without also being enraged by the Tysha situation. I liked how surprised book Tywin was when he got shot and I didn't get that as much here. And if they couldn't give Shae more dialogue to explain a few things, why not allow Tywin to give us a bit of info on her and their relationship. Just a line or two would have made a difference IMO.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Dev F]

Tywin's death was disappointing. I also agree with those who point out how little sense it makes that Tyrion would risk his life without also being enraged by the Tysha situation.

 

I'm not so sure about that. As I mentioned in the TV vs. books thread, the Tysha revelation made sense as the motivating factor in the books because it was the incident that scarred Tyrion so deeply that he deluded himself into believing Shae was his true love when she was just a gold-digging whore, thus landing him in his current situation. In a version of the tale where Shae wasn't a gold-digging whore, and thus the Tysha situation is just a random other horrible thing his dad did to him one time, I don't think it works as well as a motive.

 

It makes more sense to me as it played in the episode: Tyrion feels irrationally driven to confront his father over all his recent injustices -- which, as someone pointed out elsewhere, is very much in keeping with the inquisitive nature of a man who had to know why a mentally disabled cousin kept smashing beetles for no reason -- only to discover that Tywin has turned his true love back into a whore. Which then provides him with exactly the same motivation to kill Tywin that he had in the books, just with Shae as the focus of his indignation rather than Tysha.

[Catherinewriter]

Thanks, Pete Martell (really, that's your name - did they have to get your permission to use it in the series - is Oberyn your brother or cousin). Anyway, thanks for the statements about Roz and Shae - and I think I'll use "sex workers" in the future instead of "whore," not that I've used "whore" currently.  "Where sex workers go.. ."

Edited June 17, 2014 by Catherinewriter

[Hanahope]

I think LS is more about vengeance because she's been dead longer than Beric ever was, and her death was very traumatic.  She had just been betrayed at her brother's wedding by an ally and watched her oldest (and to her knowledge, last surviving) son killed.  I'm sure that being dead longer meant more brain cells died, likely affecting more cognitive thought and retreating back to more basic instincts like survival and vengeance. 

 

I can understand waiting until next season for the story line to be more developed, but given that book 3 ended on such a surprising note, I think most bookwalkers expected the same with the TV show.

[Catherinewriter]

Quote

Emilia Clarke gave some of her best work in years. I'm not sure how she has more chemistry with CGI dragons than any Daario, but she does.

 

Because the dragons are more realistic and lifelike?

 

Mac123X - Hee, just hee

 

I'd love to know what goes into creating the dragons. Don't understand CGI at all.

Holmbo, actress Shae has done a better job than either book or show Shae. I feel really bad for both the character and the actress, as I do for several of the women.

 

I think I, and others, just have to accept that GoTH is a misogynist series, and deal with it. Either read/watch it or not. Yet, it's important to keep criticizing the absolute crap that passes for sexual activity here. Fully nude women, shirt off men, really, author and show? 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Catherinewriter

[Maximum Taco]

As for Jojen, I wish we could have seen more devastation from Bran, because for all the talk of Bran's selfishness, I do think he cared about Jojen. Those scenes weren't all that well-directed so I'm going to put some of it on Alex Graves, as I already don't like him so that's easy. As much as Jojen essentially lived only in service to another, I'm glad that his death at least gave Meera a chance to do things and feel things, as I think Ellie Kendrick is great and really a very different type of actress for the show, and I was happy to get to see more of her.

 

Agreed. Jojen should not have been a finale death. There was just no time given for the death to land. We saw Jon mourning Ygritte and Grenn and we even got a moment with Pyp on the fire to let those episode 9 deaths land. Jojen however is just left to die in a vacuum and Bran rushes forward because they didn't have enough time to spend on making his death land.

 

Bran should have been devestated. I can see him being somewhat detached in the books, he's closer to Meera there, and he's starting to go all green seer on everybody and that might necessitate a certain detachment from emotion. But TV!Bran was even triggering wide spread thoughts of whether or not he's into Jojen, as a romantic prospect, largely because he seems to be having a lot of significant looks with him and Meera just seems along for the ride.

 

Very disappointed in how that death was handled. Maybe we can get a scene next season where Bran and Meera bond over the loss, but having to wait a year for Jojen's death to have impact is just ridiculous.

[elzin]

I like talking about it, reading about it here. It's more of a "safe place" than most other places. "What misogyny?" is the NICEST thing I usually read elsewhere.  I can still like the show, but be troubled by the directions it goes in when it comes to women. Even if the best intentions were meant by replacing Tysha with Shae, it's still problematic from an outside perspective, making it seem like all women are "whores", all women are the same. I can get behind it being pragmatic, but it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt every single week on women-related stuff.  And I hate feeling like there is something wrong with *me* for noticing and commenting on issues, especially as I'm not being a shrill "let's boycott the show" type.

[Catherinewriter]

Elzin, I so agree. Any lit/opera/drama/etc. set in this time period is going to be full of misogyny. Some we can handle, some we can't. There are characters in this series that I would dearly miss were I to institute a personal boycott, but I certainly understand if others take that route. I once made a list of the characters I'd like to keep and see them in a series, but couldn't see where that would lead (Davos, Shireen, Brienne, Tyrion, Varys, Asha, Sam and Jon, etc.) I mean, what would that look like?

 

Speaking of Varys, don't you love that scene of him at the dock: Up the steps, bell sounds, down the steps.  Hee

[elzin]

The Varys change was one of the good changes. It makes sense, it added a touch of humor, it explained why he was MIA for so long.  I guess changes work when they don't involve naked women. 

 

Sometimes I think they think their audience is only straight boys/young dudes, people who want nothing but battles and boobs.  And that minimizes them, thinking that they wouldn't watch without that stuff.

[Independent George]

Thanks, Pete Martell (really, that's your name - did they have to get your permission to use it in the series - is Oberyn your brother or cousin). Anyway, thanks for the statements about Roz and Shae - and I think I'll use "sex workers" in the future instead of "whore," not that I've used "whore" currently. "Where six workers go.. ."

Just go with the Pratchett terminology, and call them "seamstresses" (hem hem!). Or Ladies of Negotiable Affection, if you're not into that whole brevity thing.

To avoid confusion, women who use needles & threads should in turn be referred to as "needlewomen".

[Skeeter22]

I'm still annoyed that Tyrion's trigger for shooting Tywin was calling Shae a whore and suggesting she was disposable. Tyrion had just strangled the woman to death, but he just couldn't let her suffer the indignity of being called a whore.

Given the show's track record, it's just impossible for me to ignore the way the show treats women, particularly when it comes to violence and sexuality. The show manages to outpace the books when it comes to violence and exploitation of women, which is quite a feat. I think it's letting GRRM off the hook to blame the rampant misogyny on the time period. It's fantasy, GRRM put himself in a position to pick and choose what elements of reality to use and what to ignore. He made a conscious effort to explore misogyny, somewhat inelegantly, and the show magnifies some of GRRM's failures. I can still enjoy the books and the show, but I'm not going to just pretend the issues aren't there.

[Fen]

Emilia Clarke gave some of her best work in years. I'm not sure how she has more chemistry with CGI dragons than any Daario, but she does.

 

I so agree.  I think that was the most I've felt invested in any Dany storyline - and I genuinely teared up when she walked away from her dragons.  This emotion was what was missing from the scene with Jorah, for me.  I think her position now does hark back to Tywin's comments to Tommen at the beginning of this season, about how a wise king listens to his advisors.  Dany ignored counsel about the dangerousness of her dragons, and about the repercussions of dismantling a whole social system.

 

I think the show-writers feel that giving Tyrion's relationship with Shae an emotional dimension meant they could lose the Tysha material, because they had sort of covered the 'betrayal' angle.  But - to be honest - I'm not entirely sure it worked.  A shell-shocked Tyrion, heading to confront his father after finding out the truth about Tysha made sense.  This incident shaped his entire adult life, and how he related to women.  Not only that, but his relationship with his brother was in smithereens.  He wanted to confront the man responsible.  Here, he just went for an incredibly risky stroll.

 

The final scene with Arya and the Hound was brilliant, I thought.  He's begging her for mercy, and she simply has none to spare.  The fight between Brienne and the Hound was absolutely brutal.

 

I prefer Stannis' tactical victory in the books, that he manages to take the Wildling forces with a small army - but this was still pretty damn cool.  The part where he doesn't even break stride when the Wildling is running at him?  I was grinning from ear to ear.  I also liked that they showed him asking Jon's opinion, and actually listening to him.  His willingness to listen to others' opinions is one of his major strengths in the book, imo, and it's infuriated me to see it played as weakness until this point.

 

I was expecting to see LSH - but I can understand the difficulties.  Although this show is filled with supernatural elements, there's a risk that making death non-final for such a big character could sort of 'cheapen' the impact of their initial loss.  Maybe it's a difficulty created by the collision between the realpolitik King's Landing type stuff and the fantasy dragons and wights story?  It does seem very tricky to work it well.

[ElizaD]

After the showrunners' Lawful Neutral/not a villain comments about Tywin, maybe they skipped the Tysha reveal because they didn't think it mattered that much.

 

But she was pretty quick to judge when it came to Tryion, he was Lannister, and an ugly dwarf, so he was guilty, when UnCat meets Brienne again she's brandishing a Lannister sword and somewhat going forth in Jamie's name as well as Cat's, which I do think might blind her. Cat made a deal with the Lanninster Devil but she never imagined Brienne would actually *bond* with the guy who killed her kid, and I do think she'd be a gigantic bitch to Brienne if not kill her with a swiftness. But like I said, I'm not a Catelyn fan.

Cat was right to doubt Tyrion's character, though. He was not the would-be child killer but he was an accomplice after the fact and never had a problem with the murders committed and covered up by his family so they could get away with their crimes. As crazy as Lysa was, Tyrion got a chance to have a trial by combat and got to leave after his champion won, which is fairer treatment than he gave to adults and children he knew for sure were innocent. The POV characters don't get to be in each other's heads like readers do: everything about Brienne seems suspicious (she's crushing on Jaime, can her judgment and loyalty be trusted?) and Stoneheart probably knows because of Tom what Brienne doesn't, that Jaime broke his oath by arriving at Riverrun to take up arms against the Tullys and threatened to have Edmure's newborn killed unless he surrenders Riverrun to the Freys, which suggests that any claim about his oathkeeping by Brienne is a lie or a delusion. Like Jaime's comment to Roose about giving his regards to Robb, that's something that looks 100% dirty when it was maybe 50% in the original intention (Jaime guessed Roose wasn't fully on Robb's side but didn't actually know about his RW plan with Tywin; Jaime might have ordered Baby Tully killed because he thinks the Freys were fools to make empty threats to Edmure but he's pleased that Edmure didn't challenge him).

[mac123x]

I think it's letting GRRM off the hook to blame the rampant misogyny on the time period. It's fantasy, GRRM put himself in a position to pick and choose what elements of reality to use and what to ignore. He made a conscious effort to explore misogyny, somewhat inelegantly, and the show magnifies some of GRRM's failures. I can still enjoy the books and the show, but I'm not going to just pretend the issues aren't there.

 

I completely agree, because there are plenty of other elements of a midieval setting that he left out.  The big one that leaps to mind is the lack of religious conflict.  Sure, Mellisandre and Aeron Damphair are fanatics, but they're priests of their respective religions, so it's to be expected.  But until we get to the High Sparrow and Faith Militant, there isn't any religious persecution in the Seven Kingdoms, or any wide-scale conflict between believers of different faiths.  Some characters display disrespect, like Northerns who don't trust people who worship the Seven, or southerners who think people who keep the Old Gods are heathens, but it rarely breaks into widespread slaughter.

Edited June 17, 2014 by mac123x

[Catherinewriter]

"Tyrion had just strangled the woman to death, but he just couldn't let her suffer the indignity of being called a whore."

 

Skeeter, and also, the indignity, to Tyrion, of his being associated with a whore.

It's true that GRRM is responsible for a lot of sexism, but I read a piece recently that describes how the show has upped that element. If I can find the post, I'll put it on here. (Roz will always be the most heinous of the changes.)

Independent George, obviously I meant "sex workers" in my quote, which you picked up, but one can't edit one's words when they've already been highlighted in another post.

 

Seamstresses, okay. Or, ladies of the evening.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Catherinewriter

[Fen]

 

I completely agree, because there are plenty of other elements of a midieval setting that he left out.  The big one that leaps to mind is the lack of religious conflict.  Sure, Mellisandre and Aeron Damphair are fanatics, but they're priests of their respective religions, so it's to be expected.  But until we get to the High Sparrow and Faith Militant, there isn't any religious persecution in the Seven Kingdoms, or any wide-scale conflict between believers of different faiths.  Some characters display disrespect, like Northerns who don't trust people who worship the Seven, or southerners who think people who keep the Old Gods are heathens, but it rarely breaks into widespread slaughter.

 

I don't think it feels like he left that out, though.  A lot of his religious stuff works well - especially Melisandre's position in Stannis' household, and pantheist religons being vaguely tolerant  of each other.  Then we've got Melisandre's religion: a classic monotheistic religion with a conversion imperative, i.e: believe what I believe, or else!

[Hecate7]

I didn't see it as self-defense, I just thought she was grabbing the knife just in case she needed to defend herself, because she had no idea what Tyrion was about to do. 

I disagree. She grabbed it and started trying to stab him. No talk, no attempt to flee, nothing. Just started flailing the knife around. I don't think he was heading towards the bed originally with the intent of strangling her, but the fact that she assumed she needed a knife spoke volumes to me. It means she knew she'd done something he might want to kill her over.

 

The mere fact that she was lying in Tywin's bed, and was obviously comfortable and happy, unbruised, unscarred, untroubled while as far as she knew Tyrion was about to be executed, also spoke volumes. It meant she was probably working for Tywin the whole time, and that was why she never took Tyrion's concern about Tywin at all seriously. She wasn't afraid of Tywin because she had been sleeping with him the whole time. She never got on the boat. She went straight to the Tower of the Hand.

 

She refused the diamonds Varys offered her, because she had no need to run away from Tywin, and because she was already being paid more than Varys could offer her.

 

I think they cut the Jaime confession because ultimately we're going to find that Tysha WAS a whore, hired by Tywin, not Jaime, to make a man of Tyrion.

 

I agree it makes almost no sense for Tyrion to go looking for Tywin, and possibly sabotage his entire escape, simply to confront him about the death sentence. He had no way of knowing Tywin would be indisposed or that  he would survive the encounter with his father. It makes more sense if he went to ask about Tysha, although he could just as easily have gone meaning to ask about Shae, only to find her there in Tywin's bed.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Hecate7

[TexasChic]

To me the rampant misogyny seen in this show is necessary to accurately portray how women have been treated in the past, and still are in some places today. It shows what the female characters have to deal with and overcome. I think it would do them a disservice to act as if this sort of thing doesn't exist. I don't like to see other people suffer, and the rape scenes have been very difficult for me to view, but I feel those exact scenarios probably occurred in medieval times. To not show it allows people to pretend it wasn't really that bad. This is not to say it is not offensive, it most certainly is, but I think it is meant to be. 

 

Note: I hope this came off the way I intended it to. I'm not trying to argue with, or belittle anyone else's point of view, I'm just trying to express my own. This has been circling around my head ever since I first read the books, so I thought I would try to put it into words.

[BookEater]

I'm just confused by all the Lannister children's stories, to be honest. Jaime and Cersei apparently stronger than ever, when they should be almost broken beyond repair at this point. The shows just been doing really strange things with their characters all season, to the point where I'm not sure I'll ever really believe Jaime's going to turn his back on Cersei, even though it must eventually happen.

 

And the Tyrion scenes felt really odd, not bad exactly, but unfinished. I'm trying to take off my bookwalker hat and just view it as an unsullied, but for the life of me I can't see why Tyrion would delay his escape from imminent execution to go and see his dad without the excuse of the temporary insanity bomb of Jaime's, Tysha reveal. I mean why Tywin in particular? He knows Cersei's his accuser, knows she was the one who found all the witness' and was the driving force behind his kangaroo court trial. And thanks to Oberyn, knows she did sadistic things to him when he was a baby. I know he has plenty of reasons to hate his father, but when he's fleeing for his life with only time to settle one score and without the Tysha reveal, I think I would've paid Cersei a visit personally.

[TexasChic]

 

And the Tyrion scenes felt really odd, not bad exactly, but unfinished. I'm trying to take off my bookwalker hat and just view it as an unsullied, but for the life of me I can't see why Tyrion would delay his escape from imminent execution to go and see his dad without the excuse of the temporary insanity bomb of Jaime's, Tysha reveal. I mean why Tywin in particular?

Especially since a visit to Tywin could have easily resulted in his going straight back to the dungeon. What did he hope to accomplish? A last peek at his dad? 

[Hecate7]

And if Tysha actually really feels nothing but hatred for Tyrion, that would make her wrong somehow? 

Not at all, but it's boring. It's too easy. A twelve-year-old could write it. It's utterly lacking in complexity, surprise, suspense, or revelation, and certainly not worth going all the way across the world for.  Not worth it for the audience, and not worth it for Tyrion. After the build-up

 

Tyrion's drunkenness is self-punishment and self-medication. His complete withdrawal from any social interaction except that which can be bought, is also self-punishment.

 

 

which is fairer treatment than he gave to adults and children he knew for sure were innocent.

 

Who are these adults and children he condemned without a trial? I don't recall Tyrion ever having anyone executed, actually. He suggested Ser Meryn be killed for stripping and beating Sansa....but that's as close to a death sentence as he's ever pronounced.

 

In a culture where family is all, it is as blatantly silly to expect Tyrion to investigate or accuse his own family, as it is to expect Cat to investigate or accuse Lysa Arryn or Littlefinger. It's not that silly, though, to expect the wife of the Hand of the King to go through the proper channels of justice, ie, Robert through Ned, rather than taking Tywin's son hostage and basically declaring war on Tywin.

[Maximum Taco]

I'm just confused by all the Lannister children's stories, to be honest. Jaime and Cersei apparently stronger than ever, when they should be almost broken beyond repair at this point. The shows just been doing really strange things with their characters all season, to the point where I'm not sure I'll ever really believe Jaime's going to turn his back on Cersei, even though it must eventually happen.

 

And the Tyrion scenes felt really odd, not bad exactly, but unfinished. I'm trying to take off my bookwalker hat and just view it as an unsullied, but for the life of me I can't see why Tyrion would delay his escape from imminent execution to go and see his dad without the excuse of the temporary insanity bomb of Jaime's, Tysha reveal. I mean why Tywin in particular? He knows Cersei's his accuser, knows she was the one who found all the witness' and was the driving force behind his kangaroo court trial. And thanks to Oberyn, knows she did sadistic things to him when he was a baby. I know he has plenty of reasons to hate his father, but when he's fleeing for his life with only time to settle one score and without the Tysha reveal, I think I would've paid Cersei a visit personally.

 

He didn't go up there planning to kill his father or settle a score. He only decided to kill his father after he found Shae in his bed. If he needed to kill someone before he left I agree he would've settled on Cersei. But he went up to see his father because he just couldn't let go of the notion that maybe he could do something to make his father hate him less.

 

Just like he had to know why Orson Lannister spent all day in the garden smashing beetles, he had to know why his father continually hated and tried to kill him. Even though he already pretty much knows why. He still needed to absolutely know before he could leave forever.

 

The difference between Tywin and Cersei, to Tyrion, is that he never craved Cersei's approval, all the way through though he craves Tywin's. Why else would his last words to him be "I am your son. I have always been your son."?

 

I don't think he would've said the same thing to Cersei. He probably would've spit on her corpse and peaced out.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[elzin]

To me the rampant misogyny seen in this show is necessary to accurately portray how women have been treated in the past, and still are in some places today. It shows what the female characters have to deal with and overcome. I think it would do them a disservice to act as if this sort of thing doesn't exist. I don't like to see other people suffer, and the rape scenes have been very difficult for me to view, but I feel those exact scenarios probably occurred in medieval times. To not show it allows people to pretend it wasn't really that bad. This is not to say it is not offensive, it most certainly is, but I think it is meant to be. 

 

In the books it generally doesn't bother me as much because GRRM's overall respect for women as people and individuals comes through. He's also judging the people who do the horrible things through his writing. Well, it bothers me, but I mean more that it doesn't get my feminist hackles in an uproar because I feel he's commenting on what it would really be like to be a woman in that setting, not glorifying it.

 

It bothers me in the show because the women are not shown very well. They're sex kitten fun like Marg or man/boy-like as are Brienne and Arya, otherwise they're just vessels or the "boring" characters by less-discerning viewers.  The show takes away agency from the women and subjects them to horrors upon horrors, but I don't get the same feeling of condemnation I get in the books. They seem to be titillated (for lack of a better word) by the nudity and stuff and the very strong feminist message I find in the books is gone.  All those women from all those different classes and colors and religions and ages are shredded on the tv-screen, if they show up at all.

[TexasChic]

 

But he went up to see his father because he just couldn't let go of the notion that maybe he could do something to make his father hate him less.

But how did he expect to stop and speak with Tywin in the midst of his prison escape? I hope they find a way to explain that because it really bugs me. Showing himself to Tywin would have resulted in getting thrown right back in the dungeon. The only way he could have made it out of there was by killing Tywin, but he didn't seem to be planning that until after he saw Shae and grabbed the crossbow. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by TexasChic

[Shanna]

To me the rampant misogyny seen in this show is necessary to accurately portray how women have been treated in the past, and still are in some places today. It shows what the female characters have to deal with and overcome. I think it would do them a disservice to act as if this sort of thing doesn't exist. I don't like to see other people suffer, and the rape scenes have been very difficult for me to view, but I feel those exact scenarios probably occurred in medieval times. To not show it allows people to pretend it wasn't really that bad. This is not to say it is not offensive, it most certainly is, but I think it is meant to be. ds.

That is mostly how I see it as well. The books are brutal, because a war with this much destruction in a similar setting would be brutal. Hell, look at how much rape and murder of civilians occurred when the Germans marched into russia and when the Russians marched back in WWII. I do think the show does a lot of dwelling on girl nakedness and not boy nakedness and that's in them but I don't think the books are that way. The sexual violence against men is bad as well- all the unsullied and varys and even though I hate theon the reek stuff all hurts my heart in a similar way as the rapes do.

I also don't think the show has done a terrible job with the main character women except for Cersei. But I don't know what the hell they are doing with the lannisters anymore. I am with the poster above who is confused by their arc.

I think the Tysha thing fucked up Tyrions adult life and relationships with women so much that to have her be the catalyst made sense to me in a way that Shae doesn't. I am also very disappointed that we did not get a Tyrion and Shae conversation, although I like that she reached for a knife. That fits her personality. It did not make Tyrions actions self defense to me although I may have to give that scene a rewatch. He could easily have left the room.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Shanna

[TexasChic]

 

 

In the books it generally doesn't bother me as much because GRRM's overall respect for women as people and individuals comes through. He's also judging the people who do the horrible things through his writing. Well, it bothers me, but I mean more that it doesn't get my feminist hackles in an uproar because I feel he's commenting on what it would really be like to be a woman in that setting, not glorifying it.

It bothers me in the show because the women are not shown very well. They're sex kitten fun like Marg or man/boy-like as are Brienne and Arya, otherwise they're just vessels or the "boring" characters by less-discerning viewers.  The show takes away agency from the women and subjects them to horrors upon horrors, but I don't get the same feeling of condemnation I get in the books. They seem to be titillated (for lack of a better word) by the nudity and stuff and the very strong feminist message I find in the books is gone.  All those women from all those different classes and colors and religions and ages are shredded on the tv-screen, if they show up at all.

I admit it is difficult for me to separate the books from the show. That may be what I'm doing in this case, since what you expressed about the books sounded exactly like what I thought of them. I will give it more thought and try to watch the show with a clearer eye.