The West Wing - General Discussion

[ProudMary]

8 hours ago, AriAu said:

Can actually do it on one step since the late great Mr. Dennehy was in Presumed Innocent with Bradley Whitford.

LOL.....I too pretend like it never happened, just like all of Season 5 never happened

When you bring up Presumed Innocent, my mind goes immediately to John Spencer. I have to admit I don't even remember Bradley Whitford being in the movie. It's been a long time since I've seen it. Oops! 😶 Great, now forgotten film. Brian Dennehy was great in everything he did. 

 

Also, what is this Season 5 you speak of? 🤔

[blondiec0332]

14 hours ago, ProudMary said:

When you bring up Presumed Innocent, my mind goes immediately to John Spencer. I have to admit I don't even remember Bradley Whitford being in the movie. It's been a long time since I've seen it. Oops! 😶 Great, now forgotten film. Brian Dennehy was great in everything he did. 

Presumed Innocent was one of the first movies where I read the book first.  I too remember John Spencer but not Bradley Whitford.    John Spencer was in another great movie a few years after that called Forget Paris, with Bily Crystal and Debra Winger.  

[BlackberryJam]

Loved John Spencer in Presumed Innocent. 

As to 90 Miles Away I cannot complain enough about that period of time when Kate ate the show. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Loved John Spencer in Presumed Innocent. 

As to 90 Miles Away I cannot complain enough about that period of time when Kate ate the show. 

Worst character on the show.... including Mandy!

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Worst character on the show.... including Mandy!

I came to TWW late and never participated in fandom. I knew Mandy wasn't in S2 before I even started S1, so I was fine with her. I could fast forward through her scenes. Kate though...wow, I hated her. I hated how much influence she had over Bartlett. I hated how even CJ went to her for advice about Liz, and that advice was "Don't tell Liz her husband is having an affair, we all just look at her funny until she figures it out." I mean, there is no good way to tell someone that their spouse is cheating, but you do more than look at her funny. Ugh. Kate was the worst.

[Moose135]

I never had a problem with Mandy, but I would never have missed Kate if she wasn't in the show.

[PeterPirate]

Ken Osmond was in Leave It To Beaver with
Barbara Billingsley who was in Airplane! with
Nicholas Pryor (Clem Rollins in Ways And Means) and 
James Hong (the Chinese Ambassador in Lord John Marbury)

Edited May 19, 2020 by PeterPirate

[AriAu]

I know it has been almost 18 years since this episode aired, but when I hear that 20 Indian soldiers were killed in a clash with Chinese soldiers, my first response is "as always, we are one bad bottle of tequila away from all out war in West Asia"

Yeah, I know I'm crossing story lines (actually seasons) and Qumar doesn't exist, but still......

Edited June 16, 2020 by AriAu

[ProudMary]

On 5/11/2020 at 6:18 PM, Moose135 said:

I never had a problem with Mandy, but I would never have missed Kate if she wasn't in the show.

I recently finished a re-watch of Sorkin's The Newsroom, which I hadn't seen since its original run ended in 2014. Mary McCormack was in two episodes late in the show's final season. I was surprised when she popped up because I completely forgot she had a role. Oops! For me, it wasn't just Kate's character in TWW that was forgettable; it's the actress. 

[justmehere]

The Kate character suffered from joining late in the series. - Much of that era was forgettable to me with sub-par writing. Not her fault - I barely recall Kristen Chenoweth being on in that phase. And unfair, IMO, to say the actress is forgettable for a 2-ep appearance in Newsroom. It was a short guest shot.

Two great Mary McCormack roles where I adored her:

In Plain Sight - USA Network show - played a U.S. Marshal with the WITSEC program

And canceled-too-soon The Kids are Alright (ABC I believe) as the mom of a large Catholic family in the 1970s. Hilarious.

She was also in Murder One back in the 90s. 

To each their own, but I think she's great.

[ProudMary]

3 hours ago, justmehere said:

The Kate character suffered from joining late in the series. - Much of that era was forgettable to me with sub-par writing. Not her fault - I barely recall Kristen Chenoweth being on in that phase. And unfair, IMO, to say the actress is forgettable for a 2-ep appearance in Newsroom. It was a short guest shot.

Two great Mary McCormack roles where I adored her:

In Plain Sight - USA Network show - played a U.S. Marshal with the WITSEC program

And canceled-too-soon The Kids are Alright (ABC I believe) as the mom of a large Catholic family in the 1970s. Hilarious.

She was also in Murder One back in the 90s. 

To each their own, but I think she's great.

I don't remember her from Murder One either. 😄 Then again, between Daniel Benzali and Stanley Tucci, all the other actors in that show were overshadowed. I wonder if it's streaming on any of the major platforms. I'd like to see that one again.

As to Mary McCormack, we'll have to agree to disagree. Your opinion's just as valid as mine.

[ProudMary]

Variety is reporting that the latest Aaron Sorkin penned film, "The Trial of the Chicago 7" is close to being picked up by Netflix, in the hopes of a pre-Election Day release. What a cast!

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/netflix-paramount-trial-of-chicago-7-aaron-sorkin-1234642937/

[Moose135]

I've made the big time! I follow a number of the old TWW gang on Twitter, and yesterday, Kathleen York, who played Toby's ex-wife Andy Wyatt, in reply to a tweet about her character  commented "West Wings fans are the best!"

I commented on that, and she answered me!

 

 

[AriAu]

Carl Reiner RIP...couldnt figure out how to do it with Mel Brooks, which is too bad

Carl Reiner was in Oceans 11,12 and 13 with

George Clooney who was in Monuments Men and Oh Brother Where Art Thou with

John Goodman

[ProudMary]

Something to put a smile on your face.

 

[CailynA]

Anyone know when TWW won't be on Netflix anymore? I'd like to get in one more rewatch if I can before it's too late.

[shapeshifter]

26 minutes ago, CailynA said:

Anyone know when TWW won't be on Netflix anymore? I'd like to get in one more rewatch if I can before it's too late.

Pretty sure you've got through the end of 2020, but I could be wrong. Things change.

[CailynA]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Pretty sure you've got through the end of 2020, but I could be wrong. Things change.

Yay! I thought I'd heard May but it was still there last I checked.

[AriAu]

My daughter brought this up at the dinner table last night and my wife didn't understand when I immediately said "Yo Yo Ma rocks

[HyeChaps]

Raffi rocks, too!

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, AriAu said:

...my wife didn't understand when I immediately said "Yo Yo Ma rocks

I don't blame her - Yo-Yo Ma Rules!

[Featherhat]

Just leaving this link here as I mentioned Aaron Sorkin Vs TWOP and the resulting "US Poet Laureate" episode B plot in another thread about showrunner meltdowns and how they affect fans and networks. 

 http://bitchkittie.blogspot.com/2006/02/long-back-story-of-aaron-sorkin-west.html

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Just leaving this link here as I mentioned Aaron Sorkin Vs TWOP and the resulting "US Poet Laureate" episode B plot in another thread about showrunner meltdowns and how they affect fans and networks. 

 http://bitchkittie.blogspot.com/2006/02/long-back-story-of-aaron-sorkin-west.html

Very cool. But now I need someone to pull me out of the rabbit hole, LOL.

<shapeshifter now entering academic reference librarian mode, meaning just skimming content and presenting sources on topic for you to read>

The Internet Archive doesn't have any West Wing forum discussions, and I don't either (I didn't watch until this past year; it got me through my transition to early retirement).
But if y'all are interested in behind the scenes stuff seeping into the show, quoted below are the bits (2 of 16 pages) from a recap of 3.17 "The U.S. Poet Laureate," discussing with how LemonLyman.com is surrogate for the TWoP message boards, which was an ancestor of this board.
From The West Wing: The U.S. Poet Laureate: By Shack | Season 3 | Episode 17 | Aired on 2002.03.27 (p.1-16) 
--which begins at: 
https://web.archive.org/web/20031110063802/http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=4&story=3118&page=1&sort=&limit= 
(page 1 of 16)

The LemonLyman.com stuff starts on  page 10 of the recap:

Quote

Subplot of Sorkin's Discontent. Josh is looking at his computer monitor in confusion and shouts out for Donna to come help him. Josh is having problems with LemonLyman.com. Donna is the very picture of "I'm not surprised at all, you moron." Josh says that the folks at the site haven't taken his response "in the spirit in which it was intended." He says that he's confused by the site's forum moderator, "who seems to pride herself in her organizational skills and a certain amount of discipline." Donna responds, "Right. That's what's called a control freak." Because no other form of media on earth requires a leader to keep things organized and disciplined. Josh continues that the moderator's big on scolding, telling posters when they've posted in the wrong threads, or to stop using capital letters (though I'm sure she meant posting in all-caps), and telling people that she doesn't have time to repeat herself constantly, when "clearly she does." But that's not Josh's main problem. The problem is the responses he's gotten from the posters. One reads, "Somebody needs to deal with Josh's planet-sized ego by teaching him Government 101. Who made him overlord of the Democratic party?" Somebody else wrote, "Is Josh delusional? Or is he actively trying to destroy the separation of powers?" After verifying that Josh isn't trying to destroy the separation of powers, Donna tells him to shut off the computer. But no, Josh wants to clarify his remarks. A frustrated Donna begs him to let it drop, reminding him that Josh has been the organizer behind the whole energy initiative in the first place, and that he needs to prepare for the press conference. Josh insists, somewhat angrily, that Donna sit down so that he can dictate a response. Donna looks at him like he's gone around the bend and says, "I think you've gone around the bend." Yeah, and that's probably where he's going to run into me, and my gazebo is fully locked and loaded and about to go off.

--and concludes on page 11:

Quote

Oh, where to begin. First of all, I think it's particularly galling and hypocritical for a person who sits at the top of a complex creative endeavor to summarily dismiss the people who keep any media forum running smoothly as "control freaks," either as himself or through his fictional proxies. The success of any web message board absolutely depends on an engaged moderator keeping conversations organized and inappropriate intrusions out. He should be fucking grateful that he found a site about him that wasn't full of racist screeds by neo-Nazis; lengthy, inarticulate rants as to why the United States should nuke everything east of the Black Sea; and ASCII drawings of dog poo. Because that's what you get when you don't have moderators. And just because there isn't a quarter slot on the side of your monitor, that doesn't mean that it's not costing anybody anything for you to blather away online. Maybe Sorkin should go ask NBC how much it costs to maintain their forums on NBC.com. Oh wait, he can't, because they don't have any. Maybe he should ask them why they don't. Because bandwidth isn't cheap, and the more popular a site is, the more important those "control freaks" become to prevent spam, to keep the discussions on topic so that people can, you know, follow them and contribute, and to prevent the kind of overwhelming redundancies and flame wars that causes a site to collapse under the financial strain of its own popular success. Oh, and if Sorkin thinks we get treated like South American dictators by our readers, I'm sure Television Without Pity can arrange for him to get copies of all the insults, hate mail, complaints, threats, and a few emails that, if they were sent to the president, would result in a secret service investigation. Do I think it's accurate for these characters not to know or understand any of this? Absolutely. ["Although Donna might want to revise her opinion of those wacky, unmedicated online people and educate herself a little bit before she accepts that dot-com job offer." -- Wing Chun] But does anybody involved in this storyline receive any enlightenment about it? Sorry if I'm spoiling it, but no. Is Charlie enlightened about Alaskan drilling? Yes. Is Tabatha enlightened about America's land-mine policy? Yes...but that's another rant. These people? No. And that was a decision by Sorkin and his petty way of trying to get in the last word after he was slapped down for thinking that he could visit a site about the show and be treated like a god.

Man, that felt good.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by shapeshifter

[Bastet]

7 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

The Internet Archive doesn't have any West Wing forum discussions,

It's there.  Here is the WW thread as it existed at the beginning of April, 2014 (the site ceased operations several days later), and here is the archived WW forum (from when it was put on "permanent hiatus" and reduced to a single thread of discussion).

[BlackberryJam]

I am so torn about The West Wing. I long for the days when what press secretaries said really mattered and there was a certain level of accountability for political missteps, but on the other hand, the disrespectful treatment of women, the simplistic explanations for complex problems an my loathing of Josh Lyman as a character. Watching it is both nostalgic and enraging. 

I came to TWW late so I missed Sorkin’s dickishness, but I’ve always been a fan of discussion boards and that LemonLyman bullshit just pissed me off. 

[PeterPirate]

All this talk about TWOP does take me back.  

[txhorns79]

I've been rewatching, and hit Season 5.  There are some decent episodes during the season and some bad ones.  I got to Talking Points, and it seems extremely unbelievable to me that the Deputy Chief of Staff has to be told by members of an interest group about the contents of a trade deal.  Further, that he apparently is only learning about this just as the trade deal is going to be passed, and thinks he can suddenly stop the process at this late a time period.  Finally, a guy whose job it is, is to count votes has no idea that the opposition party is in favor of said trade deal.  It reminded me of that first season episode where CJ, the White House Press Secretary, seemed confused about why we had a census.

[oakville]

I have started my re watch of the West Wing. The Pilot was much funnier than I remembered. I am puzzled why Sam would use a pager. Were cellphones not authorized for use by senior White House staff by the government in 1999 ?

 

[Kohola3]

33 minutes ago, oakville said:

I have started my re watch of the West Wing. The Pilot was much funnier than I remembered. I am puzzled why Sam would use a pager. Were cellphones not authorized for use by senior White House staff by the government in 1999 ?

 

 Did they have cell phones small enough to cart around back then?  I remember my 1st mobile phone in the nineties was enormous and heavy!

[oakville]

35 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

 Did they have cell phones small enough to cart around back then?  I remember my 1st mobile phone in the nineties was enormous and heavy!

Mandy was talking on a hand held cellphone while driving in DC during the episode . It wasn't that big.

[caitmcg]

38 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

 Did they have cell phones small enough to cart around back then?  I remember my 1st mobile phone in the nineties was enormous and heavy!

Sure. I got my first at the beginning of 2000, and it was one of those little Nokia “candy bar” phones that was around 4 inches long.

[Moose135]

2 minutes ago, oakville said:

Mandy was talking on a hand held cellphone while driving in DC during the episode . It wasn't that big.

And in the pilot, Toby is trying to use a cell phone on the airplane, and it wasn't a huge phone.

[PeterPirate]

This talk about cell phones makes me think about the flip-open phones used by Fitz and Leo during musical montage at the end of season 3.  

And let us not forget about the plot device in the pilot about switched pagers.  

[Kohola3]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

And let us not forget about the plot device in the pilot about switched pagers.  

Which was probably the reason for not using cell phones at that time.

[txhorns79]

Finished up my rewatch with Tomorrow.  You are telling me that Donna is going to have Jackie Kennedy's White House portrait in her office?  I feel like that portrait would be in a public room, not a private office.  Even if it was going to be in someone's office, I feel like it would be in Helen's not her Chief of Staff.     

[oakville]

I just finished watching the first season. It's such a great show to watch. The domestic political issues haven't changed that much in 20 years.

I was shocked by the assassination attempt as a cliffhanger.

[Kohola3]

9 minutes ago, oakville said:

I just finished watching the first season. It's such a great show to watch. The domestic political issues haven't changed that much in 20 years.

 

Enjoy!  Once you get started, it's hard to quit.  I think I can recite most of the dialog for the first few seasons!

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, oakville said:

I just finished watching the first season. It's such a great show to watch.

I tell you what, let's forget the fact that you're coming a little late to the party and embrace the fact that you showed up at all.

😄

[oakville]

3 hours ago, Moose135 said:

I tell you what, let's forget the fact that you're coming a little late to the party and embrace the fact that you showed up at all.

😄

I am watching the season premiere of season 2. Secret Service agent Ron Butterfield should have won an Emmy for his performance in this episode.

He gave Toby justification for Bartlett refusing to have a canopy when he exited the town hall. Butterfield told Toby that the gunmen were killed in 9.2 seconds & that Bartlett & Zoey were safe. Butterfield said "It was an act of mad men & the Secret Service doesn't comment on procedure"

[Moose135]

I love that scene between the two of them!

[Bastet]

I love Ron Butterfield!  The actor's voice and presence are perfect for the role. 

I love him with Bartlet in the car after the shooting (and I love Bartlet with him, worried about Butterfield's hand), and I love him with Toby in that scene about protection procedure:  "I would never let you not let me protect the president. You tell us you don't like something, we figure out something else."

[Guest]

20 hours ago, oakville said:

I just finished watching the first season. It's such a great show to watch. The domestic political issues haven't changed that much in 20 years.

I was shocked by the assassination attempt as a cliffhanger.

Welcome!

On another note, I saw Martin Sheen trending on twitter Sunday and feared the worst. Thankfully, it was his 80th birthday!

[PeterPirate]

This Martin Sheen-narrated documentary about Andrew Jackson appeared on my Youtube feed.  It's over 40 years old, but still relevant today.  

 

 

[PeterPirate]

Also, in keeping with the current trend of giving a certain nickname to people who inappropriately stick their noses into other people's business, there's this from Take Out The Trash Day: 

Josh - Her name is Karen Larsen.  She worked on the Vice-President's campaign and in his public affairs office.  Aides thought she was getting a bit of a crush on Hoynes, so they moved her further away.

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by PeterPirate

[blondiec0332]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:02 PM, oakville said:

I was shocked by the assassination attempt as a cliffhanger.

 

On 8/3/2020 at 6:14 PM, oakville said:

I am watching the season premiere of season 2. Secret Service agent Ron Butterfield should have won an Emmy for his performance in this episode.

Those are easily my two favorite episodes. I remember watching the season one finale live and being horrified I would have to wait till September to find out who survived.  Back then West Wing was appointment TV for me. Never missed an episode. I've since rewatched it twice on DVD (I got them from my library). I've also been known to sometimes pull up the above mentioned episodes online and rewatch them. They are just that good.

The actor who plays Agent Butterfield Michael O'Neill has been in tons of stuff. He is one of those guys when you see him you say hey I know him.  He was the grief stricken gunman who shot Derek Shepherd on Grey's Anatomy in season 6.

[oakville]

I am enjoying watching the second season. I like the addition of Ainsley. She is very funny.

It seems that Jed is very reluctant to implement Toby's policy ideas.

[Kohola3]

I was just reading about several Native American women who won in the primaries and were supported by Emily's list. I always think of this scene when I hear that name.

TOBY He likes the work that you did with that girl's group with the stupid name.

C.J. Emily's List?

TOBY Yes.

C.J. That girl's group with the stupid name?

TOBY Yes.

C.J. Emily's List -- "early money is like yeast".

TOBY Yeah. C.J. "It helps raise the dough".

TOBY I get it.

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

I was just reading about several Native American women who won in the primaries and were supported by Emily's list. I always think of this scene when I hear that name.

I know I've said it before, but maybe not here - I watched the entire series from day one, and have watched the DVDs a million times. Until I received a fund raising solicitation from them a couple of years ago, I had no clue that "Emily" was an acronym for "Early Money Is Like Yeast" I just thought it was the name of the woman who started the group.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Moose135

[Kohola3]

1 minute ago, Moose135 said:

I had no clue that "Emily" was an acronym for "Early Money Is Like Yeast"

That was always one of my favorite scenes (when CJ falls in the pool) so it always stuck with me.  

[blondiec0332]

15 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

I know I've said it before, but maybe not here - I watched the entire series from day one, and have watched the DVDs a million times. Until I received a fund raising solicitation from them a couple of years ago, I had no clue that "Emily" was an acronym for "Early Money Is Like Yeast" I just thought it was the name of the woman who started the group.

OMG. I consider myself pretty savvy about politics and I did not know that.  Thank you Moose.