Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[BkWurm1]

I personally did think that the scene had romantic undertones. Talk of saving Felicity and the romantic music, along with the look etc. That doesn't necessarily mean that Felicity was flirting, but I do feel that the writers seem to be attempting to set something romantic up between them. It does feel like it's more on Ray's side however, and by god I hope it stays that way.

 

The scene did have romantic undertones and yes, it is absolutely setting up a future Ray/Felicity something (sigh) but the undertones didn't come from Felicity and that's what matters to me when it comes to whether I'm upset about her behavior and I'm not because I didn't see anything that indicated she was moving on with Ray or getting over Oliver.

 

She accepted him saying something deep about his feelings and she didn't get mad at him, which I guess since she didn't scowl now means she's encouraging him?  I absolutely think had he made some kind of pass or even suggested a non-business setting lunch she would have shut him down.  Probably not in a mean way, but no, she's not in a place to start thinking about dating someone and nothing she did with the little smile or her actions afterwards suggest that she's now writing Felicity Palmer in her notebooks with hearts all around.   

 

It's true that before Oliver left for his duel, she was thinking that Oliver regretted his kiss but his final "I love you." had to have muddled everything she thought she knew and so yes, I agree, I don't think Felicity would move on so quickly but then, nothing we saw showed her moving on.  The show is telling us poor suckers that down the road, get ready and I'm not happy about that, but the timing of when that happens (Oh how I wish I felt I could have typed "if") seems clear to happen only after she knows Oliver is alive.  The scene was setting up something for the future, but in the scene, Felicity isn't IMO acting OOC or inappropriately.  I think she's getting the backlash for what is being telegraphed not for what she is doing right now (in regards to Ray)

[quarks]

I think we need whoever wrote the Felicity/Barry and the Felicity/Oliver scenes over on The Flash to make a permanent relocation over to Arrow.

 

 

....they are/were on Arrow.

 

"Going Rogue" was written by Geoff Johns and Kai Yu Wu, who seems to be focusing on Flash.  Johns said he wrote a lot of the Felicity stuff for that episode - he loves the character, and may be writing future Arrow episodes. 

 

"Flash vs. Arrow" has story credit by Berlanti and Kreisberg, script credit Ben Sokolowski, who is an Arrow writer, and Brooke Eikmeier, Flash.  Sokolowski was specifically brought over to write the Arrow characters for that episode, and is also credited for "Midnight City."

 

I don't expect Berlanti to write any future episodes, largely because he hasn't written any so far, but I do expect Johns, Kreisberg, and Sokolowski to.   For what it's worth, I found the other two episodes that Brooke Elkmeier is credited with - "Plastique" and "The Sound and the Fury" - to be among the weaker Flash episodes this season.   Sokolowski's been involved in some entertaining Arrow episodes - "The Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak," "Three Ghosts," and "Damaged," and one that was a bit of a miss when I first watched it - "The Promise," but was much better on a rewatch.  He's also credited for "Identity," with "how we spend our nights!" one of the better Oliver/Felicity episodes.

Edited February 1, 2015 by quarks

[dtissagirl]

Looking at that list of writers and which episodes they tackled tells me these guys are super great at writing 75% fun quirky upbeat action adventure superhero shows, 25% heavy drama character whumping.

Arrow has inverted those percentages in more episodes than not this season, and it's the heavy drama that's filled with bad writing.

I think the writing for Felicity is particularly telling. Her fun quirky upbeat action-adventure stories are still great, but I feel like Felicity is lost in all the angst, and all the dead people, simply because these folks are terrible at writing it. So much so that her interactions with Palmer are supposed to be part of the fun, but they're being weighted down by DEATH.

Edited February 1, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

More and more, I feel the problem with this season is that it's gone from good storytelling and characterization to Comics! Yay! and Felicity has been caught up in that, used to prop the new comic book characters on the show,  Ray/Atom and Black Canary

 

It's easy to write her babbling and funny, it takes more effort to give her a real characterization and growth arc.  Apparently we're supposed to think she's falling for Ray Palmer because he's The Atom, rather than get squicked out at his boundary issues.

Edited February 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[jay741982]

Lol while Shes actually in love with Arrow

[kismet]

I personally did think that the scene had romantic undertones. Talk of saving Felicity and the romantic music, along with the look etc. That doesn't necessarily mean that Felicity was flirting, but I do feel that the writers seem to be attempting to set something romantic up between them. It does feel like it's more on Ray's side however, and by god I hope it stays that way. 

 

I don't think that this scene, in particular, reflects badly on Felicity, I think it reflects far worse on Ray (dude, she told you a week ago that she'd just lost someone she was more than friends with). 

Totally! I think the editing, music & BR's performance point towards something more in the future. As a whole, I think the people on this forum are avid tv watchers and a smart audience. I think a lot of us saw the writing on the wall and responded emotionally to that more than the actual scene itself. It was more projecting on them what has been speculated, spoiled or implied to happen in the future. The actual scenes were only portrayed in a romantic way because of how they were edited. When you watch the clips ERB acting is very subtle she never returns BR upping his romantic overtones, but she never shuts them down either. In her position, Im not sure what I would do. I reflexively smile when nervous or anxious, so I might have done something similar. I will say tho, that was the worst first aid, I've seen attempted on the show. She wasn't even all that in to helping him with that. The helicopter scene was probably the most animated scene we've seen of her since Oliver's death, so it probably just felt a little jarring. I think I was more mad at the writers & EPs for choosing this time to step a lil harder on the romance angle. It just seemed inappropriate considering Left Behind. But that should reflect poorly on them and not Felicity. Actually, that should be the explanation for most to the episode. In order to move their plot agenda, their characters took the hit and TBH Felicity wasn't the only one that took a character beating that episode.

[Velocity23]

I am in love with this post about Felicity Smoak

 

 

Thank You!

From Bethy (bethy40@hotmail.com):

    Just wanted to say thank you for bringing up the fact that Felicity being abandoned by her father (who she was incredibly close to) at about age 6 is a foundational aspect of her character.  That is something that you never, never get over.  It is always part of who she is, even if she is a remarkably well-adjusted and emotionally aware character.  If I were on Tumblr or any sort of social media these days I would ask Guggenheim how much they think about this part of her back story and how much it affects how they write her in the present day.  I want to see this part of her backstory affect her arc big time because that would be honest to human experience.
    Excellent points and excellent blog.  Many thanks!

Hey Bethy! Thank you so much for your submission. Now, I have to get this out of the way, before I address your awesome thoughts, and that’s that you should definitely join social media, if only Tumblr. I would enjoy getting to know you better.

On that note, you are so very welcome. People have it in their repertoire that Felicity’s father is a mystery, that she didn’t really know him and that the circumstances behind his absence are unbeknownst to her, but I don’t think they ever really put in its proper context in terms of Felicity’s emotions when it comes to love and abandonment. She is a 25-year-old woman who is so crippled by that 6-year-old girl’s pain, and having to relive it. Life is a cycle of pain, but I see so clearly why Felicity pushing Oliver away romantically is her way to stick a quark in it.

Donna basically said that Felicity’s father was the one she had the most in common with in those impressionable years growing up. “I could barely keep up with the two of you." I mean, that’s a type of bond between daughter and father that not even Mama can relate to, can keep up with. Donna couldn’t see ANY of herself in her daughter, for how much she got from her father. Her intelligence, her inquisitiveness, even her drive I’m sure. I mean, it begs the question, what else did Felicity get from her father? How would she know since those memories of him are faded behind his leaving? She has no context for him, nothing but the memory of her not being enough to stay for, to fight for. 

Now, onto Oliver, every single time he makes his feelings for Felicity known, he’s walking away from her in some way or another. HAS ANYONE ELSE PICKED UP ON THAT BESIDES ME???? There hasn’t been one time that Oliver has said, “I love you" and hasn’t walked out of the door. The first time he said it, he left her in that dark mansion, to face Slade’s revenge. The second time, which doesn’t really count as an ILY, but a plea to Felicity to not ask him to lie to her about loving her, he was "breaking up" with her. The third time he said it, he was halfway out of the door, on his way to Ra’s Al Ghul’s front step, for who knows how long. He might not even have said it if not for Felicity asking, "And what’s the second?"

Every time Felicity has met the man and his love for her, it’s been coupled with a sacrifice. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Her father sacrificed raising her for whatever he ran off to do. Oliver has sacrificed her for her protection, for avoiding the inevitability of hurting her. So, what does that do to her? How does Oliver’s actions affect her in the context of what she still struggles with, stemming from her father? THAT IS THE QUESTION!

The writers have been chronically annoying me with the lack of development for Felicity and shoveling through her thought process and having her voice these emotions. Two of my fave people on the planet - stilettoroyalty and smoakandarrow - were just talking about this on Twitter (another social media outlet that I would love to see you join!), how we don’t get the glimpses into Felicity’s head that both WE and SHE deserve to have fleshed out. Her voice is lent to everyone else for a flat fee, Ray and Laurel in particular, especially lately, but we don’t really have an in-depth look into how she’s coping. How is FELICITY doing? How is she living? Is she sleeping at any point between being the Master of the Universe?

Oliver is dead, and aside from the breakdown she had in her office, to Ray (no surprise there, since she can’t shit without the guy these days!), she hasn’t had a moment since. She’s never fleshed out enough, which the writers probably believes makes us want more and more, but it really just stunts the best character on TV. Felicity resonates. That’s what she does. She pulls the audience in with her emotions, because, like Oliver, she’s the first character we all truly saw as a person, just a person, swelling with humor, suspicion, quirks, and a run in her stockings. She is the embodiment of the human experience on Arrow, but they don’t let her talk about much of that experience at all.

I need so much more out of Felicity and I’ll really have to say goodbye to Arrow and all of the EPs empty promises about allowing her that space if it doesn’t happen soon. Enough of her modifying the chip for Ray’s suit and pasting Laurel’s mask back over her eyes in some sorted moment of sisterhood when they haven’t even had a cup of coffee together. Give Felicity the fucking microphone for about an hour. Two hours. Let her emotions about her father pour out, stop talking to us about Felicity through other characters. If she’s gonna be the one that every superhero comes to for an upgrade, then let them wait in line until she’s done talking, feeling. 

Thank you so much for your submission, and I apologize for the lengthy diatribe. Felicity Smoak induces babbles, rambles and the like, because she deserves better and she knows it.

http://forever-erica.tumblr.com/post/109899461489

[jay741982]

Someone should send that to Idiot writers on ARROW.

[Chaos Theory]

Does Felicity know the identity of like every hero? Is she the keeper of heroes? That is some powerful knowledge.

[calliope1975]

Does Felicity know the identity of like every hero? Is she the keeper of heroes? That is some powerful knowledge.

 

Imagine if she went evil. I wonder how EBR would do with evil. Goth!Felicity was still pretty bright.

[Chaser]

HBIC

[FireFoxy]

She was EVERYTHING this episode and apparently the only one with common sense. ILH!

[wonderwall]

For the first time in ages I found Felicity to be 100% in character. And she gets hated on the most this episode :p Ah cruel world we live in

[Guest]

For the first time in ages I found Felicity to be 100% in character. And she gets hated on the most this episode :p Ah cruel world we live in

 

It's the thing to hate on popular characters now. Whatevs.

 

And I agree. First time in a while I found Felicity in character and what a surprise, Ray was nowhere in sight. I'm shocked.

 

I totally understood where she was coming from at the end (although I understand Oliver's side too) and while I think that terrible line of dialogue was a little harsh so soon after Oliver came home, I can forgive things like that because this is what's making Felicity a layered character. She's not perfect and she says things in the heat of the moment because it's all rooted in emotion. That I can understand.

[lemotomato]

For the first time in ages I found Felicity to be 100% in character. And she gets hated on the most this episode :p Ah cruel world we live in

I agree. Tonight's Felicity was back to being her badass season 2 self. 

 

The people hating on her are also probably the same ones that complained how Felicity was one-dimensional, comic relief, and a doormat that let Oliver walk all over her. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

Usually people on Facebook LOVE her. But damn the facebook comments are insanely negative. smh. 

[Guest]

Usually people on Facebook LOVE her. But damn the facebook comments are insanely negative. smh. 

 

Yikes. If it's bad now, what's it going to be like when she starts dating Ray?! O_o

[wonderwall]

Yikes. If it's bad now, what's it going to be like when she starts dating Ray?! O_o

ooooooofffff, I don't even want to think about it

[Danny Franks]

Usually people on Facebook LOVE her. But damn the facebook comments are insanely negative. smh. 

 

That's what happens when a season full of negative writing choices start to impact on a character, I guess. By the sounds of it, the writers banked on her popularity being bulletproof, and it isn't. Guggenheim will profess to being "surprised" again when he has her start to date 50 Shades and people loathe it.

[BkWurm1]

For the first time in ages I found Felicity to be 100% in character. And she gets hated on the most this episode :p Ah cruel world we live in

Almost makes me want to venture out on Twitter.

 

Almost.  I guess I don't need to hurry.  I'm sure the hate will get worse before it gets better. 

[wonderwall]

That's what happens when a season full of negative writing choices start to impact on a character, I guess. By the sounds of it, the writers banked on her popularity being bulletproof, and it isn't. Guggenheim will profess to being "surprised" again when he has her start to date 50 Shades and people loathe it.

Nope. The writing for Felicity in this episode was pretty amazing stuff. She stood up for what she believed in, her principles, her morals. She was strong. The epitome of BAMF as she made Malcolm look like a puppy while she was sitting down on her chair like it was her throne and she was the Khaleesi (literally Felicity in that scene reminded me of Dany from GoT). 

 

They finally got Felicity right. They're making her into a strong woman who doesn't take any BS from ANY character no matter how much she loves them. She will call anyone out if she sees fit, and I think she was totally on point when she put Oliver in his place. 

 

What we're seeing here is misogyny. And I honestly can't believe I'm bringing it up again. I hate bringing up social issues. But it's true. Most of the people I've seen who are hating on Felicity who is finally growing as a character are men. That can't be a coincidence. 

Almost makes me want to venture out on Twitter.

 

Almost.  I guess I don't need to hurry.  I'm sure the hate will get worse before it gets better. 

Twitter was actually one of the more saner places including tumblr?! LIKE WHEN DOES THAT EVER HAPPEN. 

[BkWurm1]

Different topic. 

 

So yes, Felicity IS vastly disillusioned by Oliver being even willing to work with Malcolm and I think that is like 80 percent what compelled her anger and rejection of his so called love but I can't help but wonder if it will also come to be revealed that pushing him away now was out of fear that he was just going to go right back and get himself killed.  He couldn't have told Roy we'll figure out Ra's tomorrow?  Not even going to let yourself be happy to be home for like two minutes? 

 

I guess he got that while he was having a tea party with Merlyn.

 

Apparently I'm a little bitter right now. 

 

Ok, ok, better to have pain in February so we can work toward something resembling happiness.  If we got any happiness now, we'd know it was just going to be snatched away. 

[BkWurm1]

Twitter was actually one of the more saner places including tumblr?! LIKE WHEN DOES THAT EVER HAPPEN.

 

I find a lot of people on Tumblr veer toward the younger generation and that's only important if you consider that means many would have less understanding that Felicity rejecting Oliver does not equal Olicity is over.  "There is nothing new under the sun."  Finally a time where watching too much TV works to my favor.  I'd be soo much less Zen without having rotted my brain all these years.  ;)

[Danny Franks]

Nope. The writing for Felicity in this episode was pretty amazing stuff. She stood up for what she believed in, her principles, her morals. She was strong. The epitome of BAMF as she made Malcolm look like a puppy while she was sitting down on her chair like it was her throne and she was the Khaleesi (literally Felicity in that scene reminded me of Dany from GoT). 

 

They finally got Felicity right. They're making her into a strong woman who doesn't take any BS from ANY character no matter how much she loves them. She will call anyone out if she sees fit, and I think she was totally on point when she put Oliver in his place. 

 

What we're seeing here is misogyny. And I honestly can't believe I'm bringing it up again. I hate bringing up social issues. But it's true. Most of the people I've seen who are hating on Felicity who is finally growing as a character are men. That can't be a coincidence. 

Twitter was actually one of the more saner places including tumblr?! LIKE WHEN DOES THAT EVER HAPPEN. 

 

They got her right in one episode, when people have been increasingly annoyed with her over the last several weeks? I don't think that runs counter to what I said. The whole storyline with Ray seems to have soured a lot of people and once that happens, I don't think characters regain that favour, regardless of what they do. It certainly isn't just female characters either. I've seen plenty of people go off Oliver because he started sleeping with Sara.

 

But the misogyny is nothing new for this show. I've seen far too many people discount the constant killing of women as 'a petty complaint' and just enjoy it for the middling action scenes. That's the audience the show is trying to appeal to.

[wonderwall]

They got her right in one episode, when people have been increasingly annoyed with her over the last several weeks? I don't think that runs counter to what I said. The whole storyline with Ray seems to have soured a lot of people and once that happens, I don't think characters regain that favour, regardless of what they do. It certainly isn't just female characters either. I've seen plenty of people go off Oliver because he started sleeping with Sara.

 

But the misogyny is nothing new for this show. I've seen far too many people discount the constant killing of women as 'a petty complaint' and just enjoy it for the middling action scenes. That's the audience the show is trying to appeal to.

I think people started turning on her in episode 10, the episode where Felicity started to show more emotions and started to be more of a fully formed character.  All I know is that while people were slowly turning on her in episode 10, the second she butt heads with Oliver was the second the vitriol began and that has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with the audience's perception and how willing they are to stand a woman with emotions on their screen. I've never seen this much hate for her character and it can't be a coincidence that it's because it's Felicity Vs. Oliver now. 

I find a lot of people on Tumblr veer toward the younger generation and that's only important if you consider that means many would have less understanding that Felicity rejecting Oliver does not equal Olicity is over.  "There is nothing new under the sun."  Finally a time where watching too much TV works to my favor.  I'd be soo much less Zen without having rotted my brain all these years.  ;)

As young as they seem, I've seen a lot of thoughtful posts about Felicity and her reaction to Oliver teaming up with Malcolm. Very thoughtful, indeed. It's much better than the hoards of people calling her a bitch and whiny without any reasoning or basis on other websites like IMDB, Reddit, IGN, SpoilerTV... It's like people who aren't on twitter or tumblr aren't even trying to look at it from Felicity's POV... smh

[apinknightmare]

I think people started turning on her in episode 10, the episode where Felicity started to show more emotions and started to be more of a fully formed character.  All I know is that while people were slowly turning on her in episode 10, the second she butt heads with Oliver was the second the vitriol began and that has nothing to do with the writing and everything to do with the audience's perception and how willing they are to stand a woman with emotions on their screen. I've never seen this much hate for her character and it can't be a coincidence that it's because it's Felicity Vs. Oliver now. 

 

Yeah, I've seen a lot of "whiny, emotional bitch" complaints being thrown at her ever since Oliver died. Especially since she committed the unspeakable act of turning the lights off in the foundry while Digg and Roy were still standing there, haha. 

[Chaser]

Emotional woman get hammered on this show. Felicity and Diggle walked away from the Team in 3x10 and yet only Felicity was crucified. In 3x12, Diggle and Felicity made the choice that working with Malcolm was wrong. Diggle wasn't called emotional or irrational. In both of those cases, Felicity was at the forefront. 

[quarks]

Twitter seemed to be yelling "GO FELICITY GO!" though I didn't catch all of it. 

 

I think there's several issues here: one, when Oliver and Felicity have disagreed before (which has happened a lot) they've usually made it up by the end of the episode, which didn't happen here. Two, Stephen Amell made Oliver look like a little kicked puppy in that scene. How he managed that stunt given his size I don't know, but the visual effect was kind of like watching a fierce bully kick a cowering puppy and I'm conditioned to want to hug the puppy even when, as in this case, the puppy has been a very very bad boy.  Three, for close to a year now, we've had Oliver arguing the ethical approach, unlike in first season, so we're almost conditioned to assume this has to be the correct choice. Plus, he's following the advice of the increasingly cool Tatsu who is shaping up to be one of the most awesome parts of this show. Granted, he's taking the advice of someone whose life has gone so incredibly badly that she's now hanging out in primitive log cabins without any internet access, which is sad, but still, I think we're expected to believe that when it comes to fighting, she knows what she's talking about.  Four - the show didn't allow Felicity to see how badly Oliver had been hurt. The audience saw Oiver fall over a cliff, spend some painful moments drinking penicilin tea, and in this episode, limp and then wince when Felicity hugged him a bit too tightly.  So the audience is seeing Felicity yell at a wounded man for not picking up the phone, which seems mean - except that of course Felicity doesn't know the situation, so it isn't mean.  Five, I think this would play out better if not for Ray lurking in the background, because again, what the audience is seeing is Felicity on friendly terms with the guy who took over Oliver's company (even if Oliver seems ok with this), unintentionally hurting Oliver by kissing Ray, smiling at Ray, and helping Ray build a robot suit.

 

So while what I'm seeing is a woman devastated because her hero is doing the one thing she never, ever thought he'd do, there's also all of that.  And while we did get some of the trademark Felicity quippiness in the early parts of the episode, the ending pretty much overshadowed all of that.

[tv echo]

I just posted an "Uprising" review in the Starling City media thread in which the male reviewer (with moviepilot.com) really bashes Felicity.  Apparently, she's annoying, cries a lot, always threatens to leave the team, puts a strain on poor Oliver, holds back his training and his training of Roy, and constantly questions his actions.  The reviewer thinks their relationship has only caused problems for Oliver and doesn't understand why Oliver is in love with her.  Apparently the writer thinks that Felicity should just remain a 'fun character' who makes witty remarks and always defer to the hero's better judgment.

[Chaser]

I saw a lot of positivity on twitter and tumblr. There was bashing ( The worst was Felicity should take out her tampon….yep someone said that ) but it wasn't this overwhelming amount at all. 

 

As for the other sites, the haters always come out first and swinging. And it must make a lot of comic book/Laurel fans mad, that in Laurel's big BC arc Felicity is getting a lot of attention. Really, there were very few people talking about Laurel and Roy. 

[apinknightmare]

I just posted an "Uprising" review in the Starling City media thread in which the male reviewer (with moviepilot.com) really bashes Felicity.  Apparently, she's annoying, cries a lot, always threatens to leave the team, puts a strain on poor Oliver, holds back his training and his training of Roy, and constantly questions his actions.  The reviewer thinks their relationship has only caused problems for Oliver and doesn't understand why Oliver is in love with her.  Apparently the writer thinks that Felicity should just remain a 'fun character' who makes witty remarks and always defer to the hero's better judgment.

 

Hey, you know. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. And I can see people feeling that way about Felicity. Lately she really hasn't been the quippy, fun person we've known on the show for two seasons. If someone enjoys her for her one-liners and thinks she's a good side character, I can see how her getting a bigger, more emotional arc would be off-putting. 

 

Honestly, it's a little off-putting to me, too. They're putting her through a lot, although that's par for the course on a show where everyone gets kicked repeatedly when they're down. And I don't mind watching it so much because it is arguably character development, and I care about her and her character. I just wish they'd scale it back a few notches, because it's exhausting to see her upset almost ALL THE TIME. And I'm not even talking about the last few episodes where she was reeling from Oliver's death - it seems like she's been emotionally wrought in, like, all but maybe two episodes. And that's the fault of the show, because everyone's there. I need some capers or some team hijinks or...something that doesn't make me want to rip my eyeballs out from depression.

 

Apart from all the emotional stuff, she seems to do well with Oliver in the Arrow cave, even reverting back to her old quippy self more often than not, so hopefully now that this is out there she can dry her eyes for a bit and get back to business. Until she gets kicked again, I guess.

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

I understand what you're saying, but that review irked me because it completely overlooks everything that Felicity has done for Oliver to help him.

[apinknightmare]

I understand what you're saying, but that review irked me because it completely overlooks everything that Felicity has done for Oliver to help him.

 

Oh, yeah. I didn't read that review, I was just speaking to the general tide of dislike/anger that seems to be shifting in Felicity's direction, since you commented that the reviewer thought Felicity should remain "fun." :)

[Chaser]

The show has become so dark and depressing, Felicity was always the character that provided the brief bright spot. People still want that but quippy happy Felicity would look like a basket case in some of these situations. 

 

I blame the show for taking on such an (IMO) unenjoyable vibe. I prefer my show to descend into madness towards the end of the season, but Arrow is being a downer all the way thru.

[Carrie Ann]

I think there's several issues here: one, when Oliver and Felicity have disagreed before (which has happened a lot) they've usually made it up by the end of the episode, which didn't happen here.

 

I came to the same conclusion, and just posted a similar train of thought in the episode thread before I read this. But yeah, basically, I think this is the crux of the problem, along with the fact that Felicity cried in 8 or 9 out of 12 episodes. It's...ridiculous. And it's making some viewers with sexist attitudes write her off as whiny and emotional and irrational.

 

On the other hand, like @apinknightmare, I too wish they would ease up on the angst with her. Prior to this season, how many times did we see Felicity with tears in her eyes? A half dozen maybe? It's a problem with the whole season--it's too grim and melodramatic--and Felicity is just a reflection of that. But considering she was the one light element of a dark show in the past, I can understand to an extent the eye-rolling at the constant angst. And it's frustrating that the opposition with Oliver is often unresolved simply because they won't talk openly with each other. That's frustrating because that's not the dynamic we came to expect from them, and I understand their motivations for not being open (particularly on Felicity's side), but that doesn't make it better in terms of my engagement with their relationship. I will also say, as someone who hasn't been thrilled with the writing for Felicity this season, that the only silver lining to her getting hate on the internet is that maybe it will make MG realize that he is dead wrong that Felicity is bulletproof. They need to take more care with how they write her and Diggle, and not just rest on their laurels as they have this season.

[tv echo]

It's just like Robert Dougherty said in his reviews, the EPs are writing to plot this season and not to characters.  Characters are being twisted to suit the plot.

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[Betweenthisandthat]

As for the other sites, the haters always come out first and swinging. And it must make a lot of comic book/Laurel fans mad, that in Laurel's big BC arc Felicity is getting a lot of attention. Really, there were very few people talking about Laurel and Roy.

 

I'm a Laurel fan and I'm seeing some more positivity now that she's BC.  Can't say I'm mad because the attention she would get would mostly be hate, and the criticism she gets/got is now being placed on Felicity which is a strange irony since the two characters are constantly compared in fandom.  With Felicity always painted as much better.  For a long time Laurel was called the whiny bitch because she wasn't kissing Oliver's ass, and now Felicity might be getting that same treatment.  I'm glad Laurel isn't in this Olicity mess or whatever those last scenes in this episode were about.  Roy can stay away from that too.  Not liking that Felicity might be under fire for standing up for herself, but that's par for the course.

 

When Oliver was gone, I realized how much I enjoyed the show without this ship as it's being written right now, and I wish Felicity could get away from it too.  I'm not a big fan of her and Ray at the moment, but I prefer her working with the team than having to be part of Oliver's baggage.  I don't know if Felicity was right or wrong but I liked that she stood up for herself in front of Oliver.   I want to see more of Felicity's life aside from this romance this show is trying to write.  I think she's tough and is trying to figure out what to do with herself and her life given the work she does.   I wish the show would let her do that in her own way and on her own time without Oliver in the backdrop right now.  I think he brings her down and I felt that when he returned.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

[Password]

I want to see more of Felicity's life aside from this romance this show is trying to write. I think she's tough and is trying to figure out what to do with herself and her life given the work she does. I wish the show would let her do that in her own way and on her own time without Oliver in the backdrop right now. I think he brings her down and I felt that when he returned.

I thought this is what they were going to show us this season concerning her identity, but I've been bitterly disappointed in it tbh. I'm still waiting actually, perhaps someone will let me know what her journey is this year? Be able to cry in peace without Ray encrouching on her time? If that was fixed I'd consider it a win.

[Guest]

I'm a big Felicity fan and always will be but I have struggled with the writing of her character a lot this season. I'm not one of those to ignore her problems or put her on a pedestal. She does things wrong sometimes and I have no problem acknowledging that. I disliked her flirting with Ray last week. I don't particularly like her around Ray at all. IMO, the pair of them together become white noise and I mentally switch off. I've also found her quite cold and distant in a few episodes and that has worn on me some. 

 

But in no way was Felicity written out of character last night. She was emotional, yes. But what the hell is wrong with that? I really begrudge the notion that because she loves Oliver she has to support every single thing he does, even when he's wrong. NOPE. Not here for that. 

 

I said it in the episode discussion and I'll say it again here: not half the people talking shit about Felicity would be complaining if Diggle had been the one serving Oliver some truth tea. He'd be championed for it. The blatant misogyny is disgusting tbh. Gross. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by Guest

[slayer2]

I agree. Tonight's Felicity was back to being her badass season 2 self. 

 

The people hating on her are also probably the same ones that complained how Felicity was one-dimensional, comic relief, and a doormat that let Oliver walk all over her. 

 

Def not true. At least I didn't think that way. Alot of us just violently dislike her now that she's in Olicity because she's being written like a self-centred asshole.  IMO I find it hard to believe that even Felicity fans can't see it. It's the same thing they did with Laurel and with any woman that Ollie has been in a relationship with (except Huntress because she wasn't around long enough) they don't know how to write for women very well on this show and they seemed to be writing her fine when she was the tech girl with a crush but as a romantic lead she's exhibiting the exact same tendancies that Laurel did. I can't speak for the whole (non-Olicity or former Olicity fanbase (obviously) but at least for me that's what's happening here. 

 

I think if anything getting her away from Oliver and putting her with Roy/Ray whoever his name is (yiiii) will help return her to form. At least with R he calls her out on her shit and so she doesn't seem so untouchable as she has in Season 3 with this Oliver arc.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[XtremeOne1]

Or they could just let Felicity stand on her own. No relationships with creepy stalkers, no relationships with sad brooding men. Let her be Felicity, give her own storyline that doesn't involve being a superhero's pretty muse who tells them right and wrong. 

 

I think the last few episodes have been good for Felicity, though this was the weakest for her because of Olicity drama. I hate Olicity drama. I hate Olicity. Sorry. I think Felicity is a tricky character. She has a lot of issues as a female character but a lot of quality too. It depends on the writer, really. Sometimes she's just written as "the woman on the team, the love interest, the fantasy girl" and other times she's written as the most human character in the bunch. 

 

The last three she's at her most human. She wasn't just there to lift others up, but to deal with her own issues, her own feelings and flaws. That's the Felicity I like and the only issue I had with her this episode was not with her but the writing, this FORCED drama of Olicity(It's been weighing down the season with cliched 'I can't be with you Felicity, I'm super dark and brooding!'...

 

This was always my concern with Olicity, did it would do more damage to Felicity than good and I was absolutely right. Felicity the friend gets to be more of a full developed character, Felicity the love interest is in multiple love triangle, is all about Oliver, is all about being 'the girl who inspires'.

 

And of course when Felicity isn't the perfect, compliment woman, people also turn on her. That was one of the issues with Felicity too. When you write a character to be this 'fantasy' half the time, guys turn on her when she acts at all real(and it doesn't help they also don't know how to write women ..). 

 

They need more female writers or male writer's who can write women because the female characters in both DC comic shows are bad. That's for sure. Look at Caitlin. They've turned her into Felicity-lite, Felicity without the weight. And then there is Iris, who's treated with such disregard that even her own father thinks of her in terms of 'Barry's love interest'...

 

I have ZERO faith they'll get anything with Supergirl right.

 

I'm not sure what's going to happen with Felicity going forward. If she goes down the Olicity path, she'll lose herself in that relationship, but without it the fans' seem unable to accept her and the writers' seem to not know what to do with her.

 

But the last thing I want Felicity to be is a character from The Vampire Diaries(a female character who literally cannot exist in a story of her own without a guy, and yet gets no character development because it all goes to the brooding d-bag).

Edited February 5, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[slayer2]

Oh god! Elena part two? Perish the thought!

[lion10]

I'm a big Felicity fan and always will be but I have struggled with the writing of her character a lot this season. I'm not one of those to ignore her problems or put her on a pedestal. She does things wrong sometimes and I have no problem acknowledging that. I disliked her flirting with Ray last week. I don't particularly like her around Ray at all. IMO, the pair of them together become white noise and I mentally switch off. I've also found her quite cold and distant in a few episodes and that has worn on me some. 

 

But in no way was Felicity written out of character last night. She was emotional, yes. But what the hell is wrong with that? I really begrudge the notion that because she loves Oliver she has to support every single thing he does, even when he's wrong. NOPE. Not here for that. 

 

I said it in the episode discussion and I'll say it again here: not half the people talking shit about Felicity would be complaining if Diggle had been the one serving Oliver some truth tea. He'd be championed for it. The blatant misogyny is disgusting tbh. Gross. 

 

I like Felicity too though I do take issue with her writing this season.  I like that the writers have expanded on her technical genius to the point where a billionaire finds her just so she can work on the atom suit.  Bu I think her relationship with Ray is a little weird.  He comes across as too stalkerish with buying the company she works for, showing up at her apartment, and bugging/pinging her phone to track her back to Verdant.  I don't know if we're supposed to think of that as a harmless character quirk or if it's to show that the death of his fiancee has mentally imbalanced him.  

 

That said, I didn't like Felicity's snap at Oliver for a single reason "I don't want to be the woman you love."  She could have said she was through with Team Arrow or chewed him out to pieces but to break Oliver's heart like that in only the way she (not Diggle, Roy, or Laurel) can soured for me what was previously such a beautiful reunion scene.  I don't like that Felicity hurt Oliver like that and I do find it a little strange for her to have said something that harsh to him.  

Though I do understand the mix of frustration and incredulity that might cause her to say something like that.  But I don't get Oliver's angst.  He's the Arrow regardless.  It's not like him being the Arrow puts her in any more danger than being part of his team does.  Why doesn't he date Felicity?

 

I've read comments about the amount of women killed during the show but it the major death ratio seems pretty even to me.  So could someone explain in more detail what they're talking about?  For major men:  Robert Queen, Yao Fei, Tommy Merlyn, Helena's fiancee, Sebastian Blood.  For major women: Shado, Sara Lance, Isabel Rochev, Moira Queen, Ray's fiancee, Rebecca Merlyn.  And that's not including all the male villains that have been killed off.  

[AES13]

 

Def not true. At least I didn't think that way. Alot of us just violently dislike her now that she's in Olicity because she's being written like a self-centred asshole.  IMO I find it hard to believe that even Felicity fans can't see it.

I guess I don't see where she's been written the way you depict her.  The "worst" thing I've seen her do is take a high paying, high status job with Palmer Technologies and not warn Oliver that the company was changing names.  Given that Oliver himself was not interested in trying to get the company back, I don't see her actions as an attempt to hurt him.  

 

Oliver has kept all the decision making vis a vis their relationship to himself, with no room for disagreement.  Are we supposed to think that if she "really" loved him, she would do whatever he wants? because IMO that would make her a doormat, not selfless.

 

 

[Orion]

I like Felicity too though I do take issue with her writing this season.  I like that the writers have expanded on her technical genius to the point where a billionaire finds her just so she can work on the atom suit.  Bu I think her relationship with Ray is a little weird.  He comes across as too stalkerish with buying the company she works for, showing up at her apartment, and bugging/pinging her phone to track her back to Verdant.  I don't know if we're supposed to think of that as a harmless character quirk or if it's to show that the death of his fiancee has mentally imbalanced him.  

 

That said, I didn't like Felicity's snap at Oliver for a single reason "I don't want to be the woman you love."  She could have said she was through with Team Arrow or chewed him out to pieces but to break Oliver's heart like that in only the way she (not Diggle, Roy, or Laurel) can soured for me what was previously such a beautiful reunion scene.  I don't like that Felicity hurt Oliver like that and I do find it a little strange for her to have said something that harsh to him.  

Though I do understand the mix of frustration and incredulity that might cause her to say something like that.  But I don't get Oliver's angst.  He's the Arrow regardless.  It's not like him being the Arrow puts her in any more danger than being part of his team does.  Why doesn't he date Felicity?

 

I've read comments about the amount of women killed during the show but it the major death ratio seems pretty even to me.  So could someone explain in more detail what they're talking about?  For major men:  Robert Queen, Yao Fei, Tommy Merlyn, Helena's fiancee, Sebastian Blood.  For major women: Shado, Sara Lance, Isabel Rochev, Moira Queen, Ray's fiancee, Rebecca Merlyn.  And that's not including all the male villains that have been killed off.  

 

Felicity isn't breaking Oliver's heart. Oliver is breaking his own heart and Felicity's. She's not the one that is unwilling to try to be together despite their night job. She's not the one that is dangling maybes and saying she loves him while going off on suicide missions or saying, "nope, sorry not right now, maybe never."   All season long he's been slowly giving her hope with one hand and that snatching it away with the other. Death by a thousands cuts.  That doesn't even include what happened last year during the mansion scene where he presented her dreams to her on a silver platter with his right hand while sticking a syringe for a deception with his left. Yes he meant it, yes Oliver loves Felicity but everything so far has been his choice. His choice to date, his to stop, his choice to go to Ra's without trying to find another way, his choice to team up with Malcom - no discussion on other ways to handle it (like a team would do). And Felicity finally had enough - something she had every right to tell him.

 

Team up with a monster and loose your humanity, turn his back on everything that makes him Oliver and embrace the end result justifies the means. Ra's and Malcom turned their back on who the were. They became their missions. They are what Oliver will become if he turns his back and becomes the Arrow. The mission is everything and damn the consequences to get the victory. If being a woman he loves means he would team up with a monster that killed over 500 people to protect her - than she doesn't want that.

 

Felicity isn't just mad that Oliver won't love her the way she wants, she's pissed that he wants to go against ever thing he stood for; the ideals she  that she fought Roy, Laurel, Malcom,. and Diggle to uphold. As far as I'm concerned Oliver's lucky that she didn't smack his face and quit Team Arrow.

 

Either Felicity is going to be a sub character that stays in lane - is bright and sunny and supports Oliver all the time and become a Mary Sue or she's going to be a real person, one that gets angry, rages, cries, laughs, makes good choice and makes bad; because that what a real person does. 

 

As far as the male/female deaths. Robert Queen was in one episode alive, we never saw Michael Stanton (Helena's fiancé} so I don't count them. Yao Fei, Tommy, and Blood all got to die a heroes death; Yao Fei died after giving into Fryers to save Shado, Tommy died saving Laurel, Blood died because he stole the cure for Oliver, I'll throw Robert in because he killed himself for Oliver. They all died being heroic.

 

The women; Shado died on her knees a victim - not fighting. Sara was shot on a rooftop  and fell on a dumpster not being a hero  Rebecca Merlyn and Ray's Anna victims of street crime. Moira was a hero for sacrificing herself for her children and Isabel died fighting against Nyssa.

 

All the men who died - died being heroic. All the women that died except for 2 died being victims.  That's the difference for me.

[wonderwall]

That said, I didn't like Felicity's snap at Oliver for a single reason "I don't want to be the woman you love."  She could have said she was through with Team Arrow or chewed him out to pieces but to break Oliver's heart like that in only the way she (not Diggle, Roy, or Laurel) can soured for me what was previously such a beautiful reunion scene.  I don't like that Felicity hurt Oliver like that and I do find it a little strange for her to have said something that harsh to him.

 

But that's the thing. She isn't quitting team Arrow, she can't say that. I think the fact that what she said was incredibly harsh was the point. Oliver's so thick headed that just saying "I'm disappointed in you" because it would never get through to him. Why should Felicity saddle herself with a man who's doing something she finds to be reprehensible? It was harsh, but IMO it was necessary to cut ties with Oliver at that point because there's no good time to end things with him once and for all

Edited February 6, 2015 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

That said, I didn't like Felicity's snap at Oliver for a single reason "I don't want to be the woman you love."  She could have said she was through with Team Arrow or chewed him out to pieces but to break Oliver's heart like that in only the way she (not Diggle, Roy, or Laurel) can soured for me what was previously such a beautiful reunion scene.  I don't like that Felicity hurt Oliver like that and I do find it a little strange for her to have said something that harsh to him.  

Though I do understand the mix of frustration and incredulity that might cause her to say something like that.  But I don't get Oliver's angst.  He's the Arrow regardless.  It's not like him being the Arrow puts her in any more danger than being part of his team does.  Why doesn't he date Felicity?

 

There are a bunch of posts over in the Relationship thread that tackle Oliver and Felicity's relationship that should/could answer your questions, but here's a meta written by an Olicity fan over on Tumblr. I don't usually agree with everything the writer says. Sometimes I think she has way too much faith in the writers, LOL! But the stuff here about Oliver, Felicity and Olicity, and the events of last night is spot on, IMO. Especially the part about Felicity. "Made of Steel: Uprising Arrow 3x12 review"

[statsgirl]

I like Felicity too though I do take issue with her writing this season.  I like that the writers have expanded on her technical genius to the point where a billionaire finds her just so she can work on the atom suit.  Bu I think her relationship with Ray is a little weird.  He comes across as too stalkerish with buying the company she works for, showing up at her apartment, and bugging/pinging her phone to track her back to Verdant.  I don't know if we're supposed to think of that as a harmless character quirk or if it's to show that the death of his fiancee has mentally imbalanced him.  

 

That said, I didn't like Felicity's snap at Oliver for a single reason "I don't want to be the woman you love."  She could have said she was through with Team Arrow or chewed him out to pieces but to break Oliver's heart like that in only the way she (not Diggle, Roy, or Laurel) can soured for me what was previously such a beautiful reunion scene.

--------------

 

I've read comments about the amount of women killed during the show but it the major death ratio seems pretty even to me.  So could someone explain in more detail what they're talking about?  For major men:  Robert Queen, Yao Fei, Tommy Merlyn, Helena's fiancee, Sebastian Blood.  For major women: Shado, Sara Lance, Isabel Rochev, Moira Queen, Ray's fiancee, Rebecca Merlyn.  And that's not including all the male villains that have been killed off.  

I think for Felicity, it was a disillusionment, that Oliver isn't the person she thought he was. I don't understand MG saying that Oliver chose to be The Arrow at that point rather than Oliver Queen -- personally I thought he chose to be a near-sighted idiot.

 

In terms of the men vs women ratio, Tommy was the only really well fleshed out major character. Robert we saw in the occasional flashback and Yao Fei and Sebastian Blood were basically plot contrivances.  We never even met Helena's finance as he died before the series started.  Of the men who were thought to be killed, Malcolm Merlyn, Slade and Oliver all came back from the dead.

 

For the women, Shado, Sara and Moira had held major roles in the show.  Isabel was like Blood and Yao Fei, or even less since she had fewer appearances.  Ray's finance and Rebecca Merlyn also died before the show started.

 

So of the prominent good characters, Tommy, Shado, Sara and Moira, one man and three women died.  Merlyn and Slade both survived even though they were bad guys.

 

Four - the show didn't allow Felicity to see how badly Oliver had been hurt. The audience saw Oiver fall over a cliff, spend some painful moments drinking penicilin tea, and in this episode, limp and then wince when Felicity hugged him a bit too tightly.  So the audience is seeing Felicity yell at a wounded man for not picking up the phone, which seems mean - except that of course Felicity doesn't know the situation, so it isn't mean. 

I can't believe the posts complaining that Felicity hugged Oliver tightly and why doesn't she have any consideration for him being skewered?  Maybe because she doesn't know?????

 

 

 

Yeah, I've seen a lot of "whiny, emotional bitch" complaints being thrown at her ever since Oliver died. Especially since she committed the unspeakable act of turning the lights off in the foundry while Digg and Roy were still standing there,

 

 Alot of us just violently dislike her now that she's in Olicity because she's being written like a self-centred asshole. 

Only Oliver is allowed to be a self-centred asshole.  And Thea I guess.  I don't like Thea at all right now, but she's not getting the hate Felicity is.  Diggle and Felicity both think the same thing, they both quit in Left Behind, but only Felicity is getting hated.

 

One thing that is consistent in terms of fandoms, that when a female character is complex and fallible, she gets excoriated  especially when she admits to weakness.

Abby on ER, Cameron on House,  I remember someone at TWoP came up with a list of female characters who were disliked because they were complicated and realistic rather than pushy and self-assured.

 

As I was typing this reply, a friend of mine who teaches at university called to complain about problems she has teaching. In the conversation, she mentioned a study that was done recently, comparing teacher evaluations for an on-line course with the same replies but one group thought it was a male prof and the other thought it was a female.  With identical responses for the course, the ratings for the 'male' prof was 8% higher than for the 'female'.  No surprise there, just sadness.

Edited February 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[NoWayOut]

I loved Felicity in last night's episode. The writing for her has been pretty awful this season (practically every other scene she has with Ray has been cringeworthy imo), but last night's episode was one of the few times this season where I didn't question her action.

[quarks]

I can't believe the posts complaining that Felicity hugged Oliver tightly and why doesn't she have any consideration for him being skewered?  Maybe because she doesn't know?????

 

 

I rewatched the scene and realized that Oliver kept his jacket zipped up the entire time, hiding his wound. Which, given that he's so often shirtless in the Arrow Cave, is something.  So I don't think she knew.