Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

Betweenthisandthat · May 8, 2015

I'm sure Marc Guggenheim loves the praise of his writing and creations. I have to say though that while I'm sure others disagree, and I'm not looking to change minds, this season has taken Felicity, who I thought was a fun and interesting character, and made her kind of boring. Instead of complexity her feelings have gotten hard to decipher. I almost want to say she's become a flatter character now. She had fewer storylines but more complexity and potential before. Now her feelings are all about Oliver, and before they were about Ray or Ray to distract her from thinking about Oliver. In the first season, she was concerned not only about Oliver but about finding the truth and protecting the city and doing what's right. Her moral code apart from Oliver would be nice to see. Maybe that's happening in the scenes I haven't gotten to watch because I keep changing the channel in the middle of the episodes.

That's not her fault. For all the drama of this season, most of it I've found uninteresting. I do think she's gotten weepy, too. That's not the actress's fault, it's just that her character is suffering a lot in this mess. No one will listen to me because the ratings are doing well, which will only encourage the writers to continue to do what they're doing, but in my mind there were so many interesting Felicity-centric stories that they could have explored this season. There were moments that I enjoyed, but in general it's a struggle to stay interested. I only watched parts of the last episode, but every time I tuned in, Felicity was weepy about Oliver in her scenes with Laurel and Diggle, then her scenes with Tatsu, and finally when she sees that Oliver might get married. I suppose that's warranted given the situation, but it's not working for me.

I'm not saying that her relationship with Ray was great, but I'm not seeing how her interactions with Oliver are any better. It's been a rough season on most of the characters though, so she's not the only one to suffer. It's just that she's fallen the farthest, and then wasn't the change I personally wanted to see in this character, but this is working for other viewers, good for them.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

Angel12d · May 8, 2015

No one will listen to me because the ratings are doing well, which will only encourage the writers to continue to do what they're doing, but in my mind there were so many interesting Felicity-centric stories that they could have explored this season.

I don't think Felicity is boring and I feel like her emotional reactions have been warranted this season (although I am also fed up of seeing her cry, I just want her to be happy again) but I agree that there were many more things they could and should have done with Felicity. I think having to be with Ray for the majority of the time really did her no favors and took away time that could be spent elsewhere.

I mean, it sounds crazy but I sometimes felt like Felicity was more of an EA to Ray than she ever was to Oliver. I just saw nothing of substance from being with him. She was pretty much there as love interest and that makes me sad because I feel like she's worth more than that.

I'm hopeful that s4 might give her some more focus and she'll be back to normal again though. I just feel this season as a whole has been so dreary and depressing for everyone that pretty much every character suffered as a result. It's a shame Felicity is getting most of the hate though.

NumberCruncher · May 8, 2015

Taking a stab at this because while I don't agree with everything you've said, I fully understand where you're coming from.

I'm sure Marc Guggenheim loves the praise of his writing and creations. I have to say though that while I'm sure others disagree, and I'm not looking to change minds, this season has taken Felicity, who I thought was a fun and interesting character, and made her kind of boring. Instead of complexity her feelings have gotten hard to decipher. I almost want to say she's become a flatter character now. She had fewer storylines but more complexity and potential before. Now her feelings are all about Oliver, and before they were about Ray or Ray to distract her from thinking about Oliver. In the first season, she was concerned not only about Oliver but about finding the truth and protecting the city and doing what's right. Her moral code apart from Oliver would be nice to see. Maybe that's happening in the scenes I haven't gotten to watch because I keep changing the channel in the middle of the episodes.

I actually agree with most of this and it's a huge reason why this season has been such a struggle for me. I know a lot of people argue that she's a richer character because she was given all of this angst, but honestly, it was given to her mainly to service the progression of the male characters on the show. She had plenty of angst in S1 and S2 that centered around her own choices and abilities and how that fit into the mission at hand. S3 became all about Ray and Oliver (and even Barry) and I'm not even counting the whole sex aspect--she was used all season long as the catalyst in honing their superhero identities. Sure she was made VP of Palmer Technologies, but we hardly saw that integrated into the story. On the other hand, we sure saw her time as VP consumed in bringing Ray's suit to fruition (while he, of course, found his way into her pants and stole her facial recognition program). The little leftover time spent with Team Arrow was primarily spent trying to convince Oliver to pull his head out of butt and mourning him when his inability to do so got him into trouble or left him dead. Hell, even the one episode we got that centered around her was a reaction to what happened to her boyfriend although at least that storyline gave her the opportunity to flex her cerebral muscles to outwit the villain herself.

That's not her fault. For all the drama of this season, most of it I've found uninteresting. I do think she's gotten weepy, too. That's not the actress's fault, it's just that her character is suffering a lot in this mess. No one will listen to me because the ratings are doing well, which will only encourage the writers to continue to do what they're doing, but in my mind there were so many interesting Felicity-centric stories that they could have explored this season. There were moments that I enjoyed, but in general it's a struggle to stay interested. I only watched parts of the last episode, but every time I tuned in, Felicity was weepy about Oliver in her scenes with Laurel and Diggle, then her scenes with Tatsu, and finally when she sees that Oliver might get married. I suppose that's warranted given the situation, but it's not working for me.

I'm not saying that her relationship with Ray was great, but I'm not seeing how her interactions with Oliver are any better. It's been a rough season on most of the characters though, so she's not the only one to suffer. It's just that she's fallen the farthest, and then wasn't the change I personally wanted to see in this character, but this is working for other viewers, good for them.

It isn't her fault--any character is only as good as the writing allows them to be. I know my rantings probably get written off as un-feminist about the constant crying but I've never had a problem with female characters showing a wide range of emotions, nor do I think they are weak for showing grief. What I do have a problem with is watching an otherwise strong female character repeatedly going through the same reaction to what's happening to other characters over and over again with no progression to her own character arc. In that regard, you're right that it flattens the character.

Edited May 8, 2015 by NumberCruncher

Chaser · May 8, 2015

I feel for Felicity. I think they have made her a character that has to be between a 3 and a 7 on the emotional scale or she walks the crying edge. I'm the same way and its so annoying. If I'm too 'something' I can get teary really easily. Ugh.

Mostly I blame it on the fact that they decide Felicity would be the audience condiut. They wanted the audience to identify with the pain so they put it on her. I think it worked in Sara, but they wouldn't let it stop. It's been more frustrating that the latter half off the season because they have kicked up the drama. I didn't see much of an issue until they killed off Oliver. Then it became a mess and put the character in a no win situation.

One part of the audience didn't think she was emotional enough, one thought she was too emotional. During Oliver's 'death' she bonds with Ray. It's not romantic but because the audience knows that that is where they want to take that relationship, she is slammed. Oliver comes back and announces he is going to align with Malcolm (the one who caused everything might I add) and Felicity has a Hell No to that. S2 Felicity would have said the exact same thing, but know it translates to 'love interest' yells at Oliver when he has a boo-boo.

calliope1975 · May 8, 2015

I remember some of the criticism about the first season of The Killing (where a family had to deal with the murder of their daughter) was that the mother spent all her time crying. I believe it was referred to as grief porn. We all agreed that, of course, if your child was murdered, the majority of your time would be spent crying, but as viewers, it's exhausting to watch week after week. With this season being so dark and dismal, it's not fun to watch the same sadness over and over again, and as Felicity is the heart of TA, it fell to her for the emotional beats.

I think this applies to the majority of the characters - yes, this is how they should react, by man, it is not enjoyable to watch.

tv echo · May 9, 2015

I could be completely wrong on this... but I think another factor is that Felicity's crying is not offset by scenes of her kicking ass as a warrior out in the field (I mean, physically fighting). There are these false perceptions that a strong, badass woman has to be a physical fighter and that crying represents weakness or over-emotionalism. Felicity fights using tech and brains. She also fights with words. She is not weak by any means.

Tatsu cried twice in the last episode, once when Akio died (in flashback) and again when Maseo died. Although we didn't see it, she probably cried when Maseo left her for the LOA. These are natural reactions to grief. But Tatsu also had several awesome fight scenes using her katana. So no one complains about her crying.

Edited May 9, 2015 by tv echo

tv echo · May 10, 2015

Alex Brown talks about the limited options for women in comic books when it comes to what kind of woman you are (Romantic Love Interest -> Wife or Femme Fatale/Villain, Career Woman, Sexy Girl), the "dung heap of sexist stereotypes and misogynistic plots" in comics with incremental improvement, and then lists a "roundup of 10 groups of women who have made [her] comics life worth living" - included on this list? One Felicity Smoak...

Pull List: Women’s History Month
ALEX BROWN WED MAR 18 2015 2:00PM
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2015/03/pull-list-comics-womens-history-month

Felicity Smoak

Creators: Gerry Conway, Rafael Kayanan

Origin: The Fury of Firestorm #23, 1984, DC

There is a comic book version of Felicity Smoak, but I have less than zero interest in her. This is about Felicity from Arrow. Any episode in which she doesn’t appear is vastly less interesting. Emily Bett Rickards’ Felicity is sharp and quick, but never clichéd. She zooms past every trope they throw at her with a flirty smile and a trail of mind-boggling hacker whatsits in her wake. Felicity and Oliver—and Rickards and Stephen Amell—have the kind of chemistry rarely seen. Their genuine affection and compassion makes every Olicity scene sparkle and spark. She understands him better than he does, and her refusal to let him lie to her is why they aren’t together at the moment. She won’t accept anything less than his true self because she knows they both deserve honesty. Ollie never exploits her skills, and she always calls him on his bad behavior.

Felicity get by just fine without Oliver, but he falls completely apart without her. Oliver can’t seem to remember how to be human instead of a killing machine if he doesn’t have Felicity to keep him straight, but Felicity is her own complete person with or without him. And to top it all off, she gets to be kick ass without actually kicking ass. She can fight when she has to, but she’s better at strategizing her way out of a pickle. She’s very girly, but she dresses the way she wants because it makes her happy, not because she wants Oliver—or Ray—to think she’s hot. She is a nerdy, obsessive, straight-talking, confident woman who doesn’t sacrifice her femininity or catfight with the other women around her. TBH, Arrow’s Felicity is a better hero than the star.

Edited May 10, 2015 by tv echo

fantique · May 10, 2015

Now her feelings are all about Oliver, and before they were about Ray or Ray to distract her from thinking about Oliver. In the first season, she was concerned not only about Oliver but about finding the truth and protecting the city and doing what's right. Her moral code apart from Oliver would be nice to see. Maybe that's happening in the scenes I haven't gotten to watch because I keep changing the channel in the middle of the episodes.

I agree with most of what you said except for this bit. Most of her conflict after Oliver got back is "Really? You're teaming up with Merlyn? Really?" So after he tried to be the sole team leader, there was a lot of back and forth because she felt that the team had found a new groove that made them better but because of the quote below, that is shoved aside as "she's not happy because Oliver is not with her."

Oliver comes back and announces he is going to align with Malcolm (the one who caused everything might I add) and Felicity has a Hell No to that. S2 Felicity would have said the exact same thing, but know it translates to 'love interest' yells at Oliver when he has a boo-boo.

To me the line "I don't want to be one of the women you love" was one of my favourites because that was her saying "I don't want to be on your list of justifications for why you do those dumbass moves in the name of 'protecting' me or some other BS that lets you sleep at night." That's my girl. The only drawback is that for every non-compromising true to character moment, we get three that are Ray propping.

I guess the problem in this season is the disconnect with what is an organic reaction from Felicity in universe but when the viewer looks at the story objectively, it is jarringly ridiculous that the stupid situation even exists. They relied too much on the fact that she's liked and they thought it was in that vapid, surface level delusion where people think she can do no wrong way without actually looking at the character. No, most people liked her because she was so real and not a manic pixie dream girl here to be the hero's fantasy. I still love her but there were time when I was had to think she was a pod person. The problem with the second half is they vacillated from IC to OOC at will, in the same freaking episodes!!! It's like they were not even trying to pretend anymore that they were writing Felicity her own story, she was clearly a prop. My favourite part about Felicity is that she doesn't waver and they kept that up long enough for me to have faith but then they had the ridiculousness that is the entire Team Arrow whiplash sequences. They believe in Oliver! No, they don't anymore, how dare he!? Oh, but they will trust him now, at least a bit. No!!!!! He betrayed them...Wait, I'm confused, they were Team Oliver again?

Mostly I blame it on the fact that they decide Felicity would be the audience conduit. They wanted the audience to identify with the pain so they put it on her. I think it worked in Sara, but they wouldn't let it stop. It's been more frustrating that the latter half off the season because they have kicked up the drama. I didn't see much of an issue until they killed off Oliver. Then it became a mess and put the character in a no win situation.

WORD. Especially because Felicity also deals with grief with denial and faux enthusiasm. I would've loved to see her hide her hurt by sassing "Al-Sahim" the way she throws shade at Merlyn at every given opportunity. That would've been gold and just as in character. This is a character that refused to admit her love to Oliver out loud because she wouldn't cosign on his soul crushing plans for the rest of his life. Her denying she's hurt and acting like Oliver and Al-Sahim are 2 different people would fit well. I mean, the people who think love interests can't be anything else and need to say the sun shines out of the hero's ass would be pissed but screw them. The only comfort is that when they wrote Olicity getting together, it was with her being more IC than ever so here's to hoping they don't go the angsty, weepy love route in S4. Also I really want her to kick Oliver in the balls and maybe give him a week of silent treatment after his stupid ass plans that involved trusting Merlyn. Every member of TA should get a shot at hitting him honestly.

I'm really excited for her story in season 4 because the anvils of "her dad might be important, y'all!" are quite hard to ignore. I just don't want it to be a repeat of the Thea/Malcolm storyline though. I hope they do it justice and without making it stupid and convoluted like the LOA storyline. Also, I will allow one crying scene for Felicity as it relates to her father. But they better save that for the winter mid-season finale.

steeledwithakiss · May 10, 2015

I think it's pretty undeniable Felicity has her own moral code and that it clashes with Oliver's. She also has her own views on life. That's the point of the whole season. Everytime Felicity walked away from him it was for those very reasons. She decided to keep on working with him to save the city but in a fundamental level she's been at odds with him all season. Felicity wants more from life than waiting for Oliver's death, she didn't want to work with Malcolm. Of course she changed her mind about that. Kinda because she still doesn't trust him. I think she's reluctantly working with Malcolm because the situation in the last 3 episodes hasn't left her any choice. When Oliver came back there was that threat that Ra's would come after him and Thea but you couldn't actually see it up until the LOA started killing people left and right. It was, IMO, a weakness in the writing. Ra's presence on the show started to matter very late in the game and that's why a lot of viewers like Felicity could not understand Oliver's decision. That and the fact that he didn't try to come up with another way talking with his team. Had he tried another and failed I'm sure Felicity and Diggle would have been more supportive.

NumberCruncher · May 12, 2015

From the News thread:

Nor really but sometimes I wish they would just kill Felicity off. She has to be this or that And do this and that or it's betrayal of someone or her agency has been taken away So she has to do this or that to get it Back. She isn't an interesting character to read articles about nor really discuss even though she is to watch.

That's one of the more frustrating things about being part of this fandom--unrealistically high expectations on the female characters to be exactly what each fan wants them to be. In Felicity's case, seems like a lot of the male comic book crowd loved her so long as she "knew her place" and lived up to every cool girl fantasy they may have had. When she was given an arc that actually caused her distress and to make hard choices then suddenly she's their worst nightmare. On the other hand, a lot of female fans who have loved her are also frustrated (myself included) because of how passive/reactive she's been made this season and they want her to not be so forgiving of Oliver's betrayal. I don't know how the showrunners have managed it, but indeed she has been put into this damned-if-she-does, damned-if-she-doesn't situation. I don't love the character any less, and it does piss me off that the writers put her character in that situation in order to prop up Ray and to a lesser extent Oliver, but I also think the viewers' expectations need to be dialed back a bit if they're going to ever be able to enjoy the character again.

This isn't just a Felicity problem though. I can take or leave Laurel--her existence has never bothered me even if I have questioned some of her choices this season. I don't have the loathing that some others do for her. I think that she, too, had unrealistic expectations placed upon her as a result of people's preconceived notions about the character dating all the way back to S1. Unfortunately, these showrunners really have no idea how to competently write women to help overcome these biases--in fact, often they make the problem even worse--so I fully expect this cycle to keep repeating itself. Felicity is getting thrashed this season and no doubt another female character will bear the brunt of it next season.

Edited May 12, 2015 by NumberCruncher

Betweenthisandthat · May 14, 2015

It's nice that Felicity got her man, and she looked good in the Atom suit but they go to great lengths for her to be so awesome and it's not necessary. She doesn't need to be perfect but a desire to save the city and do anything to protect it would be enough. Instead when Ray says thousands of lives are in danger, she shows concern about Oliver instead. That was disappointing writing. What is Felicity's moral code? I thought at the beginning of the season that Felicity working for Ray and getting out of the Arrow cave was about her looking for more in her life, but perhaps it was a sign of something else, that saving the city wasn't her goal anymore. I don't know if I believe that, but the episodes have scenes where she prioritizes Oliver over the lives of other people like tonight. So I officially don't know what they're doing with this character, and I give up trying to find out.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

wonderwall · May 14, 2015

It's nice that Felicity got her man, and she looked good in the Atom suit but they go to great lengths for her to be so awesome and it's not necessary. She doesn't need to be perfect but a desire to save the city and do anything to protect it would be enough. Instead when Ray says thousands of lives are in danger, she shows concern about Oliver instead. That was disappointing writing. What is Felicity's moral code? I thought at the beginning of the season that Felicity working for Ray and getting out of the Arrow cave was about her looking for more in her life, but perhaps it was a sign of something else, that saving the city wasn't her goal anymore. I don't know if I believe that, but the episodes have scenes where she prioritizes Oliver over the lives of other people like tonight. So I officially don't know what they're doing with this character, and I give up trying to find out.

IMO anyone who thinks Felicity would sit back and let the people she loves die don't really know her character at all. Ray was handling the situation saving the lives of thousands, Felicity wasn't needed. If she didn't save Oliver and sit there twiddling her thumbs people would hate on her, but she doesn't and actually SAVES Oliver and people hate on her? It's not about her moral compass. It's about the most logical choice. And in this scenario, the most logical choice, for once in her life, coincided with what she wanted, and that was to save Oliver.

Do people honestly think that Felicity could've lived with herself if she just let Oliver die? She lost him 2 times this season. TWICE. She wasn't about to lose him again. There was no choice to make.

And I know I'm a shipper and blah blah blah, but objectively speaking, everything worked out in the end so IDK why people are on Felicity's ass about this.

Edited May 14, 2015 by wonderwall

Angel12d · May 14, 2015

It's nice that Felicity got her man, and she looked good in the Atom suit but they go to great lengths for her to be so awesome and it's not necessary. She doesn't need to be perfect but a desire to save the city and do anything to protect it would be enough. Instead when Ray says thousands of lives are in danger, she shows concern about Oliver instead. That was disappointing writing. What is Felicity's moral code? I thought at the beginning of the season that Felicity working for Ray and getting out of the Arrow cave was about her looking for more in her life, but perhaps it was a sign of something else, that saving the city wasn't her goal anymore. I don't know if I believe that, but the episodes have scenes where she prioritizes Oliver over the lives of other people like tonight. So I officially don't know what they're doing with this character, and I give up trying to find out.

I don't think this episode showed Felicity was perfect at all. And I think the show has shown consistently that Felicity is morally gray at times. They even made a point of her saying (I think it was in early s2) that she got over the body count because they were doing what needed to be done. She's not this perfect angel and has never professed to be. So if she decided to save the man she loves while other people were saving the city, I don't see anything wrong with that. Let's be honest, what exactly could she do in that moment anyway?!

I think the writing for Felicity has been less than perfect this season and she has frustrated me at times but I have no qualms with her showing concern for the man she loves. Jesus, if she didn't she'd be vilified. She can't win. But this is a recurring theme with all the female characters on this show.

olicityfan25 · May 14, 2015

If people have doubts about Felicity wanting to help save many people in this episode and other episodes/seasons than they haven't been watching the show.

Am I blind or wasn't Felicity who found all 4 locations of the bad guys with the alpha omega virus? Was it not Felicity who stabbed Slade with the cure so that it was equal fighting weight between him and Oliver? Wasn't Felicity the one to help stop one of the earthquake devices? Once again just cause Felicity wants to save Oliver she gets hated on.

Edited May 14, 2015 by olicityfan25

wonderwall · May 14, 2015

Lmao I find it hilarious that people are hating on Felicity for saving Oliver over thousands when in that same episode she:

found all four locations of the Alpha Omega virus in the city
figured out a way for Ray to use his nanotechnology to disperse the inoculation to protect all the civilians from getting infected
convinced Oliver he can and will defeat Ra’s without dying himself
gets Captain Lance to spring the police into action
flies as the Atom to save Oliver

Oh yeah, she definitely didn't do her part to save the city. SMDH

Edited May 14, 2015 by wonderwall

olicityfan25 · May 14, 2015

This just comes down to some people don't want to give her credit because they think they she gets too much of it from others.

BkWurm1 · May 14, 2015

Let's not forget that Felicity Meghan Smaok is afraid of heights. This is way worse IMO than jumping out of a plane. She IS the plane.

Genki · May 14, 2015

I liked it as a call back to 3.19 and Oliver letting people help him.

Betweenthisandthat · May 14, 2015

Jesus, if she didn't she'd be vilified. She can't win. But this is a recurring theme with all the female characters on this show.

There's this false argument that keeps appearing that Felicity "can't win." First of all, she does win. She is winning. She's gotten the guy. The character is happy. The writing is catered to her much of the time. She gets a lot of screen time and attention and is generally loved. In no way is Felicity's character a victim of anything. She's been made an essential part of Oliver's life, to the show, and every hero's life. She's fine.

For good parts of the season, I have been rooting for her happiness. I thought it was a good idea for her to distance herself from Oliver and get with Ray. oR Anyone or no one.

This isn't some blanket attack on female characters. It is a justified criticism of writing and a trend of writing her in this relationship with Oliver. In certain scenes, the writings are reducing her focus to Oliver when the picture is much bigger and it comes off as being petty or selfish and its off putting. That's all. It's not even about her saving him, but the moments before when confronted with the deaths of thousands, her mind goes on him. Some might call it romantic, but unfortunately not me. Those are the moments that keep happening, the way Felicity and Oliver are getting written, where their moment becomes the most important in a crisis, even when others are suffering, and it doesn't work for me. That the writing's fault, and again if you love it, great! But I was hoping for something else that this show can't or won't produce.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

Danny Franks · May 14, 2015

I would think it would take a very odd individual to be able to detach themselves from a situation like that and say, 'Okay, so this person I love is going to die to save all these other people. Okay, fair trade, has to be done'. People don't really work that way, for the most part. They want to save the people that are important to them. Sure Oliver can sacrifice himself to save the city, but if the tables were turned, would he allow Felicity to sacrifice herself? I doubt it. I think he'd say, 'consequences be damned, I'm saving her', even if it was the wrong choice.

If Ray was able to step back and view the situation logically, weighing it up as one vs many, then that just reiterates that point, because he is apparently a robotic weirdo who is incapable of behaving like a normal human being.

tarotx · May 14, 2015

Ray didn't have loved ones in the situration. He could easily see the bigger picture. He got Felicity to get past her in the moment panic for Oliver's Life.

Once that happened a new plan was formed where Ray worked on the Nanatech solution (a soulution Felicity came up with in the first place) and she borrowed Ray's suit(that she helped bring alive in the first place) To fly to rescue The man she loves.

That's one of the values of team work.

Edited May 15, 2015 by tarotx

Betweenthisandthat · May 14, 2015

I also was frustrated with Felicity demanding that Ray stop working on saving thousands of people and go save Oliver. It's not a make or break thing for me with the character, but....writers, don't do that. I could see that being her initial reaction, naturally, but to reiterate her demand after Ray reminds her of the stakes? No.

This is copied and pasted from the episode thread, but this is the scene I was talking about. It's not make or break in and of itself, but there are moments in the last few episode where this happens and it's probably a signal of how this relationship will be written. It's not that she shouldn't save Oliver, it's just that the other people are a priority and they weren't to her and it was one of the more disappointing moments of the episode. Her reaction to Oliver and Nyssa getting married was the same thing and it's something that's been coming the last few episodes and it irks because it's basically the attitude of the show.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

Angel12d · May 14, 2015

There's this false argument that keeps appearing that Felicity "can't win." First of all, she does win. She is winning. She's gotten the guy. The character is happy. The writing is catered to her much of the time. She gets a lot of screen time and attention and is generally loved. In no way is Felicity's character a victim of anything. She's been made an essential part of Oliver's life, to the show, and every hero's life. She's fine.

For good parts of the season, I have been rooting for her happiness. I thought it was a good idea for her to distance herself from Oliver and get with Ray. oR Anyone or no one.

This isn't some blanket attack on female characters. It is a justified criticism of writing and a trend of writing her in this relationship with Oliver. In certain scenes, the writings are reducing her focus to Oliver when the picture is much bigger and it comes off as being petty or selfish and its off putting. That's all. It's not even about her saving him, but the moments before when confronted with the deaths of thousands, her mind goes on him. Some might call it romantic, but unfortunately not me. Those are the moments that keep happening, the way Felicity and Oliver are getting written, where their moment becomes the most important in a crisis, even when others are suffering, and it doesn't work for me. That the writing's fault, and again if you love it, great! But I was hoping for something else that this show can't or won't produce.

I don't think it's a false argument at all. If Felicity cries, she's whiny. If she doesn't, she's cold hearted and doesn't care. If she saves Oliver, she's selfish and not thinking of the city. Or, as you've said, she's petty and off-putting. If she doesn't think of saving Oliver - of finding another way - then she clearly doesn't love him as much as he loves her. That's what I meant by saying she can't win. Whatever she does, she's between a rock and a hard place now.

And you say Felicity has won because she got the guy and she's happy but that doesn't discount all the crap from the rest of the season. I guess I don't see the writing catering to Felicity when she's forced to say things like "Ray is Barry in Oliver's body." Over on The Flash, admittedly, but SHUDDER. They've made plenty of mistakes where Felicity's concerned this season. Plenty.

Carrie Ann · May 14, 2015

This is copied and pasted from the episode thread, but this is the scene I was talking about. It's not make or break in and of itself, but there are moments in the last few episode where this happens and it's probably a signal of how this relationship will be written. It's not that she shouldn't save Oliver, it's just that the other people are a priority and they weren't to her and it was one of the more disappointing moments of the episode. Her reaction to Oliver and Nyssa getting married was the same thing and it's something that's been coming the last few episodes and it irks because it's basically the attitude of the show.

I found that line annoying too, actually, and I think it was first and foremost a failure of writing because honestly these dudes have been inconsistent at best with Felicity this season--that wedding comment is exactly in line with them using her in ways I don't think are ideal. But in this case, I also think it was kind of a bad line delivery or a direction issue. Felicity's initial reaction/priority being Oliver is not a problem for me, but after Ray says the thing about how thousands of people will die, she says intently, "What? No, Ray--Oliver!" If she had said that in more of a stream-of-consciousness, wheels-churning kind of way, it would have been fine. The outcome is the right one--Ray stays and does the thing only he can do, and since her critical work is done in the lab, she (magically) is able to use his suit and save Oliver herself. But the line is not great, as written or delivered, and I'd like the writers to be more careful and thoughtful with how they write her next season.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Carrie Ann

Betweenthisandthat · May 14, 2015

Felicity's initial reaction/priority being Oliver is not a problem for me, but after Ray says the thing about how thousands of people will die, she says intently, "What? No, Ray--Oliver!"

Yes. It might seem like a small thing, but it's such a fixable thing. The show has bigger problems as a whole with most if not all the characters but Felicity has such promise and the mishandling of her character really stick out to me.

She's fun and smart and strong in her own way, and the show weakens her when they give her these lines and use her like this to service the Olicity ship in such a clumsy way and it's a pattern. The show weakens Thea by having her acknowledge Malcolm as any kind of father figure after the way he's used her. Laurel's storylines haven't done her any favors either, and Nyssa is screwed over completely. The show isn't giving any of these female characters the writing they deserve but this isn't about whether or not Felicity can "win" but if the writers can do justice to the character in important moments that can be character defining. Since Olicity is such a central relationship if not the central relationship of the show, the writers should be careful about how they write for them and in that moment their relationship became more important than anything else. You could argue that was the point of the episode. They both see each other as the most important thing in the world, even when that world needs their help. That's okay, but it doesn't work for me in a show about superheroes wanting to save their city and support each other in that goal.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

Starfish35 · May 14, 2015

Felicity's initial reaction/priority being Oliver is not a problem for me, but after Ray says the thing about how thousands of people will die, she says intently, "What? No, Ray--Oliver!"

Yes, this was the problem, right here. I have no issues with her priorities/instincts being to save Oliver. I have no issue with her putting on the suit to go save him. But right here in this line, not only is she disregarding the importance of the lives of thousands of people, she's demanding that Ray make the same choice, to prioritize saving Oliver over saving the city, and that's not fair. She might as well have said "who cares?" And i don't think Ray was being robotic to make the choice he did. He clearly regretted it, but what other choice could he make? I just am frustrated that for two episodes in a row now they have written Felicity as so focused on Oliver that she's unable to see the big picture. It's not a look I like on any character (not even River Song, who I adored, but who would have destroyed the universe to save the Doctor). YMMV.

kismet · May 14, 2015

Agree the writing could be better, especially for the females. They have to be careful with some lines because out of context the lines can seem to put the character in not the best light. I don't mind her first instincts and priorities to be saving the one she loves (that's just human). And I absolutely loved her putting on the suit!! Suit swapping was the thing to do this season. That was my first thought when she asked Ray to help, just put the suit on yourself & get the job done - let Ray finish up the nanotech job which seemed to be a 1 person job at that point. I will also give her a little bit of a pass in that scene as everything was happening so quickly that she really didn't have time to fully process. Its not like she was for saving Oliver over everyone else for the entire episode, it was a quick reaction to an immediate phone call. But ultimately, I think its a writing/editing/shooting problem, more so than a character problem.

NumberCruncher · May 14, 2015

The funny thing about that Felicity/Ray scene at PT was that they easily could have skipped over the whole dialogue where she's yelling at Ray and thus seeming not to care about saving thousands of lives. She didn't have to say anything really. When Ray mentioned that he was too busy to help she should have just walked out, taken the damn suit, and done her thing. I think a big problem with a lot of the Felicity scenes this season wasn't that her actions were wrong, but some of the lines they've given her have been absolutely wretched.

KenyaJ · May 14, 2015

I will also give her a little bit of a pass in that scene as everything was happening so quickly that she really didn't have time to fully process. Its not like she was for saving Oliver over everyone else for the entire episode, it was a quick reaction to an immediate phone call.

I think those lines were mostly a clumsy way of justifying her being the one to wear the Atom suit, but I give her a pass too. She's shown several times over the past three years that she's willing to sacrifice her own life for the greater good, so a brief, emotional moment of prioritizing the person she loved over faceless strangers doesn't bother me that much. We all can be selfish and irrational when it comes to the people we love, and I think she would have had the exact same reaction if it were Diggle who was in danger.

I wish we could have seen the moment when she regrouped and came up with her alternate plan, but I guess that would have ruined the surprise, and it was one of my favorite surprises ever.

Ceylon5 · May 20, 2015

From the Target Practice thread:

Every time I see "I love Felicity, but I hate blah blah blah", what the writer actually means is "I love Felicity when she was an awkward sidekick that said funny things, did tech stuff, and stayed in her corner, not this character that interacts with people other than Oliver and Diggle, leaves the Arrow Cave to do her own thing (even if it was just to go for a vacation on Palmer island), asserts herself, shows emotions, and makes her own decisions and mistakes."

I feel that for many people, Felicity was nothing more than comic relief sidekick, and any time she stepped out of that box, she got backlash from it. I remember last season, when she faced down Moira and told Oliver about Thea's parentage, people blasted her for being nosy, for getting involved where she didn't belong, etc. This season, she was everything but comic relief, at least in her scenes with anyone other than Ray. And that bothered a lot of people, because what they liked was early season 1 Felicity, not the character that's grown after 3 seasons.

Well, here's my perspective as someone who went off-line with regards to Arrow after the mid-season finale. I watched the first 2 seasons as a casual viewer, and though I often wondered to myself as to why I was watching the show, I kept watching because overall I found it entertaining enough to stick around. Shakespeare it has never been! Then I came on-line between S2 & S3 and got more invested in it than I should have, and that put far too much pressure on the show to be better than it's ever been once it started up again. Instead it was worse than it's ever been. I didn't like the new season right from the poorly constructed première. In any event, after trying to watch and be on-line, I realised that that just wasn't going to work. I went back to being a casual viewer, and went back to wondering each week why I watch this show, but then forgetting about it till the following week. And though I rolled my eyes a lot (not a new habit), I was actually relatively entertained. Felicity, for me, is the main draw of the show, and that didn't change in the least this season (if anything, it became more the case, because the other story-lines that I initially signed up for, like Moira, or Oliver having, you know, character progression rather than whatever it is they did with him this season, are no longer there). I also particularly looked forward to any episodes of The Flash that had her in it and kind of wish that they'd moved her there permanently (before they went ahead and set the main love stories in stone on both shows, thereby stranding her permanently on Arrow because of Oliver).

Did I have better things in mind for her? Yes! Over the hiatus last year I had my heart set on Felicity starting her own company and having something that was just hers. I got tired of her everything revolving around Oliver. I wanted her to be her own boss, successful in her own right. I haven't forgiven the show for Oliver making her his EA and never will. But when characters are forced into doing "Huh?" things (like Felicity accepting being the EA, despite her protests), I don't hold it against the character, I hold it against the writers for writing to Plot (or budget). Otherwise Oliver would have long since become unbearable to me - but he's so often driven by the writers' dumb Plots. I try to just watch around the more egregious examples of this. This season had a lot of those moments and as a casual viewer, I was able to simply forget them the moment they were off the screen. This made it easier to stay with the spirit of the characters rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae of every OOC line or reaction of every episode.

So imagine my surprise (and dismay) to come on-line and find that Felicity, who when I was last on-line was almost universally liked, has become so divisive and hated by many people pretty much wherever you go on-line (I mentioned this my sister and she said, "How can anyone hate Felicity?!?"). This makes me sad. I didn't even notice that she'd supposedly been "crying all season", and I watched every single episode. I know she cried on a few occasions, but the circumstances warranted crying so completely that it didn't occur to me that this could be something to dis someone for and thus didn't stand out in my mind other than to make me wish they hadn't made the season so craptastically depressing. And I still don't know what anyone means by her whining, because I don't remember her ever doing this. Sure, she crapped on Oliver sometimes (deservedly), but she's always done that and it's one of my favourite things about her. Was she less funny this season? Again, if so, I didn't notice. I like this character and although I think almost anyone could have written her a better storyline (and not just this season), I don't like her any less for having had a crappy Plot thrust on her.

I know lots of people hated Palmer and consequently hated that she liked him, but I could see what the intent of the storyline was (get her out of the lair, give her a job and a life away from Oliver, give her an alternative love choice, blah, blah, blah) and that Palmer was intended to be a nice guy, so I took it as that and went with it, dodgy execution notwithstanding. I find that this show is too poorly written to watch any other way. Expecting them to allow her to create her own tech/IT company and be successful on her own, and also maybe be a bit (or a lot) more wary of Oliver's "I can't/Maybe I can/I can't/Sex, yay!/I'm marrying someone else/Let's run away together" commitment issues, are pipe dreams. These characters are hostages to the writers' Plots and nothing will change that. Let's just hold thumbs that the Plot is better next year. I want Felicity to be happy. Make this happen, people!

Edited May 20, 2015 by Ceylon5

Axel · May 20, 2015

From the Target Practice thread:

So imagine my surprise (and dismay) to come on-line and find that Felicity, who when I was last on-line was almost universally liked, has become so divisive and hated by many people pretty much wherever you go on-line (I mentioned this my sister and she said, "How can anyone hate Felicity?!?"). This makes me sad. I didn't even notice that she'd supposedly been "crying all season", and I watched every single episode. I know she cried on a few occasions, but the circumstances warranted crying so completely that it didn't occur to me that this could be something to dis someone for and thus didn't stand out in my mind other than to make me wish they hadn't made the season so craptastically depressing. And I still don't know what anyone means by her whining, because I don't remember her ever doing this. Sure, she crapped on Oliver sometimes (deservedly), but she's always done that and it's one of my favourite things about her. Was she less funny this season? Again, if so, I didn't notice. I like this character and although I think almost anyone could have written her a better storyline (and not just this season), I don't like her any less for having had a crappy Plot thrust on her.

but it's fairly normal and even expected with a character like Felicity, because you know she's exactly the kind of character bond to suffer the Joey Potter Syndrome (everybody might remember Joey like the fan fav of Dawson's creek who stole the show -which is true- but anyone in the fandom past season 3 would say "She was worst ! The writers ruined her ! Most unlikable character ever !" Pretty sure "Everybody hates Joey" was the most popular thing on LJ at time lol.) Because it's expected when a character gets popular because he's the underdog or the comic relief to become divisive and subject to criticism when they step out of the box and expand. It's somewhat unavoidable with the evolution of this kind of character, I don't think it's a bad thing.

and one of the reason is that, as fact, there are very little to make you root for Felicity in Season 3 (thing to be passionate about). Because there is very little she struggles with (and why not, she did it in the past seasons). But in season 3 she has an awesome career, she's not under-estimated, her voice and opinions in "Team Arrow" is fairly acknowledged, so is her her intellect (she's so awesome that genius Ray Palmer can't do anything without her help); the hero is totes in love with her, so is the other billionaire of the show etc...the only thing she struggles with are Oliver's decisions. But this, this is not really on her, it's just on Oliver to decide ( and not everyone is that concerned with who Oliver is with specially since he has been shown as fairly versatile with his love interests), somewhere there's nothing for her to "win" : she's pained and affected by what happens to other characters, but she didn't have anything to prove or "conquer" this season.

I agree about wanting her to start her own company, if she has to run something, I want it to be "Smoak wtv..", not a version of the Queen Company given to her by her ex-boyfriend. On the other hand, the show still has a few seasons to go, I feel like it would be a better story for a finale season (as a final accomplishment)

tv echo · May 25, 2015

I just read this about Felicity on Laura Hurley's tumblr page and wanted to share it here...

anonymous asks:
Hello. I LOVE your take on things. Recently, I've been seeing more and more people saying that Felicity has been selfish the entire season, quitting on Team Arrow and dragging them down. Personally I wholeheartedly disagree but I really wanted to know how (or even if) you see Felicity as a heroine in her own right throughout the series (and specifically in season 3). Thank you very much in advance. :)
laurawritesabout laurawritesabout said:

Hi! Thanks for the ask - I’m always genuinely flattered to see somebody interested in what I have to say.

I’m going to answer your question in two parts.

First, I do actually believe the Felicity has been more selfish in Season 3 than in seasons past. I do not, however, think that this is a bad thing. For two seasons, Felicity gave up everything for the mission. She was the embodiment of selflessness to the extent that we barely knew anything about her personal life before or during the crusade. She had her professional reputation destroyed when Oliver bullied her into working as his EA and lost even that job as she was forced to work at the Arrow equivalent of a Best Buy following Isabel’s coup. In a span of two days, she was blown up while on what had been an awesome first date, learned that she’d accidentally helped a competitor hack into the QC servers, had her heart broken by the man that she loved, and walked in on the bloodied corpse of her only female friend. The girl deserved some Felicity time, and that she decided to seize it for herself marked her as the most emotionally healthy member of Team Arrow.

So, yes, I think that Felicity was more selfish than she had been in Seasons 1 and 2, and I applaud it 100%. Oliver wasn’t the only one trying to define himself in Season 3, and she needed to focus on taking care of herself. If not, who she was as Felicity Smoak was ultimately going to perish down in that Arrow Cave as well.

Also, despite what her detractors may say, Felicity never quit Team Arrow. Her reduced time in the Arrow Cave never sabotaged any missions. Honestly, Felicity’s multitasking is practically a superpower in its own right.

Second, I absolutely see Felicity as a heroine throughout the series, and I don’t think that it would be fair to her contributions to argue that a lack of mask and kill count disqualifies her for the title. In fact, her lack of fighting abilities only makes her steadfast refusal to abandon Team Arrow under any circumstances all the more heroic, and I’m going to finally make use of my 14 years of Catholic education and go full Biblical to explain why:

In the New Testament, there is a story contrasting rich men making sizable donations to the Temple with a poor widow making a very small donation. While the contributions of the rich men would go farther in helping the Temple, the widow’s contribution was of greater value because she had far less and yet gave the most that she could.

Boom. Catholic schoolgirl mic drop. We’re not all just plaid skirts and Birkenstocks.

Felicity jumped out of a plane despite a fear of heights. Felicity used herself as bait for a serial killer despite limited ability to fight him off if nabbed. Felicity took a bullet despite being a civilian for whom serious injures are not run of the mill. Felicity willingly allowed herself to be kidnapped by a supervillain despite knowing full well that this was Oliver’s last ditch Hail Mary to stop him. Felicity’s contributions on the action front of the mission to save the city may have been minor compared to Oliver and Diggle and even Laurel, but she never signed on for field work. She went above and beyond what her role required of her. If nothing else, that makes her a heroine.

Besides, the masked muscle of Team Arrow would be pretty much useless without her. One of my favorite scenes of Season 3 came from “The Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak.” Oliver, Diggle, and Roy are impotently hanging out in the Arrow Cave wishing for people to punch, but literally not able to do anything to avert the crisis without Felicity. When she makes her entrance, the boys make way. Oliver even turns her chair around for her. She was a young woman in glasses and high heels and a backless dress, but she saved the city.

May 24, 2015 4:08 pm

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/

Edited May 25, 2015 by tv echo

Ceylon5 · May 26, 2015

There's been a lot of discussion about how Felicity's arc this season revolved around the love triangle. I don't agree. I think the love story was mostly a sort of a sub-plot of her other arcs (just as Oliver/Diggle's love stories were sub-plots of their other arcs), which I'd categorise as follows:

E1-9: Everyone's arc for the first part of the season mostly revolved around Sara's murder, their own sense of mortality and grief and the silly "Whodunnit" plot. Felicity's response was to try to carve a bit of a life for herself outside of Team Arrow and its activities. This involved getting a decent job and trying to juggle her regular life with her Arrow (& Flash) life. The romantic sub-plot that went with this arc was her getting kissed and rejected by a series of men (Oliver, Barry, Cooper in the flashbacks and Ray). Romance only played a larger role in E1 (to set it up for the season) and E7 (because it was about a character named Cupid).

E5: I think the point of this episode was to show Felicity's capacity to do good or evil with her incredible computer skills. Her tears in the episode were partly her sense of responsibility for what was happening and partly from grief from an old loss. Later there was a whole bunch of broken trust to add to the pile when she realised who the perpetrator was, but she stood up for herself and got herself out of trouble instead of falling apart. I don't think romance was relevant except in so far as it showed us how touchy-feely PDA-ish Felicity is in a relationship.

E10-13: Her arc here was really finding and understanding her purpose as a crime fighter without it being for/about Oliver. I LOVE this arc. She not only decided that she wanted to keep protecting the city (with anyone who was willing to help, including Ray), but also how she wanted to do it (i.e. not team up with the likes of Malcolm, because, as Diggle put it so well, the ends can't justify the means because if you think like that, you end up like Malcolm). There wasn't really a romantic sub-plot here because I believe her responses (grief, trying to over-protect, then stepping up and accepting the responsibility of the crusade in her own right, and not letting Oliver just take over when he got back) would have been the same if this had happened last season (i.e. pre-romance), and were not really driven or affected by her "romantic" feelings. What I liked also, is that her original reaction to terrible loss was the same as Oliver's has always been: protect people whether they like it or not. It took her exactly 2 days to recover and remember that this wasn't the way; that people should get to make their own choices and that she was strong enough (and brave enough) to do her part and also help the others and keep them safe as best she can without trying to control their decisions. Hence her supporting Laurel and Ray. Oliver, are you taking notes?!?

E15-17: Her arc here was mostly about helping Ray become a superhero (though still working for Team Arrow on the side) and included the very definite sub-plot of her finally getting into an actual romantic relationship for the first time. It culminated in her having her two worlds collide and having to deal with the fallout of her superheroes tangling with each other (more an ideological clash than a fight-over-the-girl one). I felt this arc highlighted how Felicity takes care of the people around her, keeps their secrets and tries her best to keep them safe. It also highlighted for her what kind of partnership she wants to have with the person she loves.

E18: This was a pretty pointless episode for her other than to make it clear to both Ray and Felicity that she isn't going to fall in love with him. It had Felicity's Mom, though, so let's not complain too much. Its other purpose was presumably to introduce the nano-whatsits. Did they also magically cure Ray's arrow wound? Because he seemed ship-shape the next episode.

E19-23: The season's final arc for everyone revolved around Ra's and his shenanigans. I thought Felicity was pretty decisive and awesome throughout this arc. First, she, Dig and Roy came up with the plan to get Oliver out of jail, then she took charge of events in Nanda Parbat, and later helped keep Team Arrow functioning without Oliver (again) and finally she was integral to the Save Starling plots, even though one of these plots involved her going among the LOA with no weapons at all (and not even a horse to gallop away on). I'm sorry, but that's crazy brave. Her complete, unswerving distrust and hatred of Malcolm throughout was another highlight. The romantic sub-plot of this arc was Ray breaking up with her and her finally telling Oliver she loved him and thus somehow laying claim to him in a way she hadn't up until that point. From that moment on, I felt that she and Oliver were together; that he wasn't ever going to back out on her after sleeping with her (aside from the whole dimwitted dying-in-a-plane-crash plan) and that she wouldn't have let him get away with it if he'd tried it again once they were back in Starling together. She also returned to her tried and tested S1-2 Pep Talk role for Oliver at this point in the season, which isn't necessarily a romantic thing, since she's always done that. It really just highlighted that the roadblock that had been between them was no longer there.

Question: Was Felicity supposed to be in her final year at MIT during the flashbacks we saw in E5? She was pretty young (20) to be graduating with a Masters already. When I watched it, I thought she had another year to go, but in the flashback in E14 she was suddenly working at QC, so must have already graduated and moved to Starling in the intervening few months. Which doesn't really make sense time-line wise. Or did they just screw up?

Anyway, given that Felicity and Oliver are now officially together and that next season has to be lighter than this season, I feel like a lot of the things that people most disliked about Felicity's arcs this year will no longer be there. Hopefully they've put a lid on killing off main characters, so there should be no reason for tears and lots of reasons for humour and Oliver smiling. And they've set up Felicity's probable ownership of Palmer Tech, so she still has some of her "own" storyline apart from Oliver, which I'm glad about. I'm also interested to see what her role on the spin-offs will be going forward. She has such big ties to both shows that I'd be surprised if they didn't have her popping over again occasionally like she did this season (outside of the main cross-over events).

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ceylon5

lemotomato · May 26, 2015

What happened is that after hitting rock bottom, Laurel had only one way to go. Up. Felicity on the other hand, as the fun, quirky nerd, was everyone's favorite. And when she got saddled with all that melodrama, it was her turn to suck. It's the writing. And to be honest, EBR is not very good with the dramatic acting. Maybe she will improve, but I thought that her lack of acting chops was highlighted in season 3. Which many viewers have criticized and which has added to the Felicity dislike.

The answer to why most of the people who comment online have turned against Felicity is that she has become the unfortunate CW girlfriend of the lead character. Which means she gets hit with the idiot stick and all her scenes revolve around or are about Oliver.

I guess we got deleted for being off topic, but I still want to make my point, which was that accusing Felicity of only being a clingy girlfriend that just focused on Oliver is a inaccurate view of what she's done this season. @Ceylon5's post goes into better detail, but her role in the romantic subplots aside, Felicity took down Brother Eye, retrieved the plans to build Ray's supersuit and helped him build it, act as emotional support to both Laurel and Ray, kept the team together while Oliver was "dead" (only taking a break from the team for 1/2 an episode), and dropped by Central City to help Team Flash and give pep talks to Barry.

So no, she didn't become stupid just because she moved from "quirky sidekick" to "love interest", and no, not all her scenes was all about Oliver. And speaking of her much maligned "But Oliver!" moment in the finale, I'd like to point out that when push comes to shove, she puts the lives of all her loved ones above the well-being of the city, not just Oliver. In 3x10, she made the decision to keep Diggle and Roy from chasing after Brick when he stole police evidence, effectively allowing the release of the criminals Team Arrow caught over the summer. She did it because at the moment, she cared more about their lives than the greater good. Is it a character flaw or just her being human? But at least it's something consistent about her.

Edited May 26, 2015 by lemotomato

NumberCruncher · May 26, 2015

So no, she didn't become stupid just because she moved from "quirky sidekick" to "love interest", and no, not all her scenes was all about Oliver. And speaking of her much maligned "But Oliver!" moment in the finale, I'd like to point out that when push comes to shove, she puts the lives of all her loved ones above the well-being of the city, not just Oliver. In 2x10, she made the decision to keep Diggle and Roy from chasing after Brick when he stole police evidence, effectively allowing the release of the criminals Team Arrow caught over the summer. She did it because at the moment, she cared more about their lives than the greater good. Is it a character flaw or just her being human? But at least it's something consistent about her.

I'm glad you mentioned that Felicity has a character flaw because I'm constantly left scratching my head at all of the claims I see thrown around that she's a "Mary Sue" character, yet people pile on her for her attitude about Oliver vs. the city in the finale. The critics can't have it both ways. As you've pointed out, she tends to favor those closest to her over the greater good which generally doesn't really fit into in the selfless, comic hero mindset, but then don't then whine that her character is too much of a special snowflake and therefore deserves to die.

Ceylon5 · May 26, 2015

I looked back through some on-line reviews and comments from earlier this year to see at which point the real Felicity bashing started. There was almost no Felicity hate for the first three quarters of the season (aside from a small amount of grumbling about Ray spilling over onto her). It's only been in the last couple of months that the "Felicity must die, she cries all the time and is ruining Arrow" comments started. It's as if a small number of haters started posting everywhere, trying to sway anyone who comes on-line into thinking poorly about Felicity, and this somehow did manage to gather a bit of momentum. Combined with her very brief arc where she actually dated Ray (from the end of E15 to E19), which probably pissed some people off while simultaneously reducing her time with Team Arrow, it gave people reasons to start side-eyeing her. And now the whole thing is snowballing.

However, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who liked Felicity last season still do (she still scores great in polls), especially people who are offline wrt this show. Sure, some people have always disliked her; some would have gotten tired of her anyway sooner or later (three seasons in, people do tend to start getting bored and crochety with shows and characters); and some resent her being Oliver's love interest for whatever reason. But I believe most people actually still like her. And I think the reviewers like her enough to be even more resentful over her being poorly written than they are for the other characters, which is the main reason they single her out.

My feeling is that, aside from a few definitely OOC moments (e.g. being dumbed down for aspects of the "Who killed Sara?" arc), she was mostly very much her usual self (strong, smart, funny, loyal, sometimes overwhelmed by her emotions). She made me smile or laugh in almost every episode, even some pretty dark ones, and really made me feel for her when she was grieving for Oliver. I don't think her very appropriate tears were out of character, tiresome or poorly acted. Although the plot of the whole story (including her mini-plots) was very badly written, I don't think she was harmed as a character in any long term way. People are bitching now because people love to bitch in packs. But give her a great arc to start next season, and the few trollish trouble makers who started the witch hunt will no doubt be drowned out again. They probably only got a voice at all because this season sucked so badly that people jumped on the first bandwagon they saw and just went with it, even though, as arcs went, hers was definitely nowhere near the worst.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ceylon5

tarotx · May 26, 2015

Imo there has been a big pick up in Comic fans commenting their frustrstion onto Felicity. During that time Oliver came back, Laurel was the BC but with very little interaction with Oliver. Instead Felicity was the one still getting the romantic beats with Oliver Even with her dating Ray. And then when the BC was actively fighting and doing mask hero things, it was Felicity standing up to Melcolm, Oliver and Ra's that was getting press.

I think when Felicity was the One who went to Nanda Parbat for Thea, stood up to Ra's, had a romantic sex scene with Oliver and then faught for Oliver, it made some fans upset. But it was really the when she came home and cried to Laurel moment that pushed the negative Comments.

It's the moment that Felicity was the leading lady of the show. That's when the pick on her tears grew. She has cried a lot and it's never fun to fully watch especially when beats are repeated like Oliver's gone, he's back but working with the bad guys. But it wasn't Felicity's whole character S3.

But then Felicity got to wear Ray's suit and save Oliver. Then she gets to ran away with Oliver. It was a big blow for some. Saving Oliver and Running away together are things the BC does with The Green Arrow.

Edited May 26, 2015 by tarotx

wonderwall · May 26, 2015

A lot of the hate I found towards Felicity was founded on things that didn't actually happen on screen, which shows how the these people were grasping at straws to figure out a reason to hate Felicity:

Felicity hit that LoA member with a stick and he went down, people started hating on her for taking out an LoA member except they didn't take into account that Diggle shot said LoA member before Felicity took him out.
Felicity put Oliver's life above the city in the finale when she didn't. Okay she considered it for about 2 seconds before realizing that, that wasn't going to happen before making up a contingency plan. People who hated on her also conveniently forget everything Felicity did to save Starling.
Felicity flew the suit perfectly the first time even though 'Ray apparently struggled' when in actuality he didn't.
Not to mention there were some people who hated on Felicity because they thought she took a member of the LoA out in episode 22 with her tablet when it was Malcolm who did that.

It'd be quite funny if it wasn't so sad.

Password · May 26, 2015

For me I really began seeing Felicity-hate related posts after the love scene in episode 20. It was almost like that episode broke the camel's back and people finally realised Olicity is a thing and not a tease.

So weird that a love scene would do that when Oliver's been throwing ILYs at Felicity since the premiere.

doesntworkonwood · May 26, 2015

So weird that a love scene would do that when Oliver's been throwing ILYs at Felicity since the premiere.

Well you know, it's not canon unless there's a bang.

I'm sorry.

AyChihuahua · May 26, 2015

Well you know, it's not canon unless there's a bang.

I'm sorry.

You mean "cannon," right?

I am easily amused.

Angel12d · May 26, 2015

Am I the only one who doesn't think the increased hate on Felicity is as big as people think it is? Sure, there has been an increase but that was always going to happen when you place a 'non comic book canon' woman in the role of love interest. What was once just a tease and something comic canon fans thought would never happen suddenly became a very real reality. Felicity (and Olicity by extension) is not just a tease or a threat to be dismissed anymore.

No but seriously now, for every hater comment, there's a few that counteracts it, even on comment threads. And you have to remember, not everyone comments about their love. I could go on all those sites and comment about how much I still love Felicity but I don't. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

You also go to the comic cons and there's nothing but cheers and support and questions for both Felicity and EBR. I really wouldn't take this supposed widespread hatred on board. I think she suffered a few knocks this season because of bad writing (so has everyone) but there's no reason why she can't climb back up again.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Angel12d

quarks · May 26, 2015

Well you know, it's not canon unless there's a bang.

I'm sorry.

Your puns have failed this forum!

lemotomato · May 26, 2015

Am I the only one who doesn't think the increased hate on Felicity is as big as people think it is? Sure, there has been an increase but that was always going to happen when you place a 'non comic book canon' woman in the role of love interest. What was once just a tease and something comic canon fans thought would never happen suddenly became a very real reality. Felicity (and Olicity by extension) is not just a tease or a threat to be dismissed anymore.

No but seriously now, for every hater comment, there's a few that counteracts it, even on comment threads. And you have to remember, not everyone comments about their love. I could go on all those sites and comment about how much I still love Felicity but I don't. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

You also go to the comic cons and there's nothing but cheers and support and questions for both Felicity and EBR. I really wouldn't take this supposed widespread hatred on board. I think she suffered a few knocks this season because of bad writing (so has everyone) but there's no reason why she can't climb back up again.

There's a petition to "kill Olicity" and "edit Felicity" (and by edit, they mean to turn her back to minor quirky sidekick) that had gotten at least 500 signatures last time I looked. I know it doesn't affect the show, and hate counts just as much as love as far as creating buzz is concerned, but I've just never seen that level of action against any other character on the show. And it's especially jarring because Felicity was so well liked.

All the blind hate makes it hard to hear fact-based criticism about the writing for her this year, mainly that her storylines revolved around being the emotional prop for nearly every character (Oliver, Ray, Laurel, Barry), she never got credit for her part in building the super suit (but at least she got to wear it), and yes, her part in the love triangle, which she is bearing more criticism for than Ray or Oliver.

Edited May 26, 2015 by lemotomato

MsSchadenfreude · May 26, 2015

Am I the only one who doesn't think the increased hate on Felicity is as big as people think it is?

I don't think it is a big deal either. I do think constantly talking about people hating on Felicity is giving the haters exactly what they want and making their opinions seem more important than they really are. Who cares what they say?

Felicity is fine and she will be just fine in season four too.

Edited May 26, 2015 by MsSchadenfreude

NumberCruncher · May 26, 2015

Am I the only one who doesn't think the increased hate on Felicity is as big as people think it is? Sure, there has been an increase but that was always going to happen when you place a 'non comic book canon' woman in the role of love interest. What was once just a tease and something comic canon fans thought would never happen suddenly became a very real reality. Felicity (and Olicity by extension) is not just a tease or a threat to be dismissed anymore.

Oh I don't think the hatred is as widespread as some would like to believe either. I just have to shake my head when I see it applied so inconsistently and illogically. Felicity cries too much? Well then that same criticism should apply to Oliver and Barry for being even bigger crybabies than she is. She's selfish? Yeah, well many other characters on Arrow--Oliver, Laurel, Sara, Quentin, etc.--have all had their selfish moments (often when it came to people they loved), yet I don't insist that they be written off the show because of it.

Angel12d · May 26, 2015

There's a petition to "kill Olicity" and "edit Felicity" (and by edit, they mean to turn her back to minor quirky sidekick) that had gotten at least 500 signatures last time I looked. I know it doesn't affect the show, and hate counts just as much as love as far as creating buzz is concerned, but I've just never seen that level of action against any other character on the show. And it's especially jarring because Felicity was so well liked.

All the blind hate makes it hard to hear fact-based criticism about the writing for her this year, mainly that her storylines revolved around being the emotional prop for nearly every character (Oliver, Ray, Laurel, Barry), she never got credit for her part in building the super suit (but at least she got to wear it), and yes, her part in the love triangle, which she is bearing more criticism for than Ray or Oliver.

Someone made a petition?! Bahaha, that is the most pathetic thing I've ever heard omg. The fact that someone went to all that hassle to create something out of hate is just so sad. What sad little lives they must lead.

And 500 signatures is literally nothing. It's the same with hated comments on Facebook and the number of likes they receive. Unless the count is in the hundreds of thousands, it's like a drop in the ocean of pointless and makes no difference whatsoever.

Oh I don't think the hatred is as widespread as some would like to believe either. I just have to shake my head when I see it applied so inconsistently and illogically. Felicity cries too much? Well then that same criticism should apply to Oliver and Barry for being even bigger crybabies than she is. She's selfish? Yeah, well many other characters on Arrow--Oliver, Laurel, Sara, Quentin, etc.--have all had their selfish moments (often when it came to people they loved), yet I don't insist that they be written off the show because of it.

Agreed. I admit I was fed up of seeing Felicity cry this season but more in the vein that her character deserves a break and some happiness. I just wanted her to be happy again. But I was never annoyed that she was showing emotion. OMG. Human shows emotion under intense situations. Ugh, she's the worst. It is funny how male characters don't get the same backlash, like Barry over on The Flash, as you said. He cried a lot this season (and I haven't even seen every episode) and yet he's lauded as sensitive and caring. WTF. Double standards make me sick.

BkWurm1 · May 26, 2015

I'm glad you mentioned that Felicity has a character flaw because I'm constantly left scratching my head at all of the claims I see thrown around that she's a "Mary Sue" character, yet people pile on her for her attitude about Oliver vs. the city in the finale. The critics can't have it both ways. As you've pointed out, she tends to favor those closest to her over the greater good which generally doesn't really fit into in the selfless, comic hero mindset, but then don't then whine that her character is too much of a special snowflake and therefore deserves to die.

There is something to be said about saving the heroes first, kind of like how on a plane you are directed to first see to yourself before helping others with an air mask. If Roy and Diggle had died then the city would have had no one to protect it. (And Roy and Dig were deluding themselves. Dudes holding machine guns in the back of a speeding truck they couldn't hope to catch, duh! She so saved their butts.)

A lot of the hate I found towards Felicity was founded on things that didn't actually happen on screen, which shows how the these people were grasping at straws to figure out a reason to hate Felicity:

This yes!

Add to the list her callous and jealous attitude toward a known lesbian being forced to marry Oliver. Felicity would not have even been in a position to know if or not Nyssa was upset about the wedding and a snarky comment is not jealousy nor was the comment (Nyssa looks happy, are you on your honeymoon?) said to Nyssa. Since when is it unnatural to be unhappy to hear your significant other is marrying someone else?

Edited May 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

wonderwall · May 26, 2015

Adding to the list of made up reasons why people were hating on felicity:

They thought she was mad at Oliver in episode 12 because earlier in that episode she said that she knows Oliver and knows that he wouldn't team up with Malcolm, and when Oliver did Felicity threw a tantrum because he hurt her ego. That wasn't the case at all. She was angry at Oliver not because he proved her wrong, she was angry at Oliver because she thought he was better than that.

lemotomato · May 26, 2015

Oh, I've got another one: In 3x21, Felicity was a selfish quitter because was too busy crying over Oliver and left Diggle to fight crime all by himself. Their evidence was that at dinner, she asked him how to gang take-down went, which meant she wasn't on comms helping him. Horrible Felicity, abandoning the city and her friend! Except for the rest of the conversation, when Diggle tells her that the intel she gave him was exactly how everything went down, so they were obviously still working together. Plus, at the point (during the dinner), they hadn't commandeered the Palmer Tech labspace yet, so how was she supposed to run missions, exactly?

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