S04.E11: If Not For Hope

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie, Claire and Young Ian embark on a long uncertain journey to rescue Roger, while Brianna forges a friendship with one of Jamie's old friends as she fends off Aunt Jocasta's attempts to secure a husband.

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[ElectricBoogaloo]

Although I've become accustomed to hearing Scottish accents, every once in a while I will mishear something. When Rollo found the dead man's body and Ian told Jamie and Claire, "He was with Roger," I somehow heard "He was a frotteur."

I laughed when Brianna said that if William was anything like his father, he must be a perfect gentleman. That soft spoiled little brat?

I loved that when Brianna and John announced their engagement, Jocasta was smart enough to figure out that Brianna had managed to outmaneuver her. Even though it deprived Jocasta of a stronger alliance with Forbers, she still got what she wanted which was finding a husband for Brianna so that their family name wouldn't be sullied by a bastard. I definitely laughed when Jocasta said, "I don't know how you managed it. A MacKenzie you truly are." To be fair, Jocasta is cut from the same cloth - when Brianna insisted to Phaedra that she didn't need a new dress for dinner, Jocasta honored her request by having one of her old gowns altered for.

Awww, Murtagh! I'm glad that he at least found a way to extricate Fergus from the situation before getting arrested himself. We were so close to having Bonnet hog tied and waiting for Jamie's return!

Toni Graphia needs to stop patting herself on the back. When she said, "I've never seen anything like this on tv before," I realized that in all of these inside the episode segments, she always says stuff like that.

Edited January 13, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Hook75]

I don't like Brianna and I don't care for her or Roger. I hate that all stories now are revolved around her and that even Lord John is being dragged into it. Boring!

Murtagh better not die!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Although I've become accustomed to hearing Scottish accents, every once in a while I will mishear something. When Rollo found the dead man's body and Ian told Jamie and Claire, "He was with Roger," I somehow heard "He was a frotteur."

 

Lol. I looked it up and was immediately like "Oh. I didn't need to know that."

Edited January 13, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[BitterApple]

Seriously, I fucking hate Briana. She's such a spoiled little bitch. When Lizzie was apologizing, I thought Briana would take some accountability for her part in this mess. Not the rape, obviously, but her refusal to be up front with Lizzie and Claire about what happened. Then to blackmail Lord John into marrying her by threatening to reveal his homosexuality? She's officially canceled. 

I have to admit, that cold open fooled me, especially with Roger in the shower all banged up. I was like, "Holy crap, he did go back!" before the scene transitioned to the 1700s. Well played, Outlander.

Edited January 14, 2019 by BitterApple

[Cdh20]

8 hours ago, BitterApple said:

 

I have to admit, that cold open fooled me, especially with Roger in the shower all banged up. I was like, "Holy crap, he did go back!" before the scene transitioned to the 1700s. Well played, Outlander.

Loved the above sequence!

Wth is Jamie doing with his clothes on in these love scenes? And was Claire mad for months? 

I loved when John showed up at the party & the other men took one look at him, & were dismayed by the competition!

Bree better forgive Jamie! Perhaps she could have gotten John to fake an engagement with out trying to blackmail him? 

Marsali & Fergus are so cute! More of them please.

[Hannah Lee]

The cold open fooled me too.  I'm trying to think, now, was the man he saw over his shoulder in the mirror the same man Claire saw (the fellow traveler)?  Or was it the Mohawk who he was actually with?    I'm wondering about that guy from the episode Claire found the skull...is he a spirit who somehow helps all the time travelers?

I wish they had showed us whether Roger backed away from the stones himself, or if he was caught by the Mohawk as he was going through (like Claire was dragged away from the stones by the Redcoats back when she was trying to return to Frank right after marrying Jamie.)

Loved all the scenes with Fergus, Murtagh,  and Marsali...while she's her mother's daughter, she fits right in with the Fraser/Mackenszie's knowing when/how to speak frankly to people and when to just pull strings around them.  Not happy to have Murtagh back in custody, but I wonder if Brianna's new connection with Lord John, and Lord John's old connection with Murtagh from their prison days post-Culloden will help team-Fraser get out of this particular mess unscathed.

Hated the way Brianna threatened Lord John, telling him she'd expose his sexuality.  Even though she tried to back out of the threat later, it was a lousy thing to do.  And the way the actress played it, there was no sense in the moment IMO that it was a bluff from Brianna.  She seemed like she meant everything she was saying. 

I did like Brianna and Jocasta's relationship and hope we see that developed more.  I love that Jocasta has a very clear understanding of who she is, what her family is like and the realities of the world she operates in - She's a blind Scotswoman who has survived several husbands and thrived in Colonial America, retaining property, status, power...she's a Mackensie and a survivor through and through.  (I think that's why Jamie just leveled with her in the letter of introduction he sent with Brianna; he knows who/what his aunt is)   She's willing to speak hard truths to Brianna, even though she doesn't know her personally, because she is family and Bree has been entrusted to her care.  I'm sure having another Claire-like woman in her midst wouldn't be her choice, but she just goes with it. And when she realizes that Bree had out-Mackensie'd her, by wrangling an engagement to a Lord instead of the Hobbit, she not only admires it, but she's happy to ride the wave, because for her having a connection to Lord John is way better than a connection to Pip or the Judge whatever guy.

I was happy to see Bree finally smarten up when she deferred comment about the stones to the Judge's mother - a Beauchamp-Randall woman finally read the room correctly, but then when she launched into the "Truth or Dare" psychology game at dinner* my stomach just sank - 'this won't end well for someone'.

*did she learn nothing after launching into her "I can't tell you how I know this, but something awful is going to happen" shtick with Laoghaire?  Don't try to be smarter than the room, Bree, it won't end well in the 1700's.

 

Also, completely unrelated, but PBS has just started a new season of Victoria, and was rerunning episodes, including one where Prince Albert and Queen Victoria traveled to Scotland, and it was nice to finally understand all the references to the Stuart kings, and Jacobites.  It was an interesting snapshot 100 years later.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Hannah Lee

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, Hannah Lee said:

I'm trying to think, now, was the man he saw over his shoulder in the mirror the same man Claire saw (the fellow traveler)?  Or was it the Mohawk who he was actually with? 

He was the Mohawk "jailer" that Roger was with, not the ghost that Claire saw. That guy was bigger/bulkier.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

22 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

And was Claire mad for months?

In the first few scenes, both Jocasta's dinner and Bonnet's anticipated arrival in Wilmington were said to be one week away. So a week.

[BitterApple]

I don't think the time lines are running concurrently. Briana looked like she had a five/six month baby bump, whereas last episode she was only two months gone and not showing. I think we're further along at Riverrun, but maybe not as far into the journey for Jamie and Claire.

Which leads me to my next question, if Jamie and Claire planned on being gone for half a year, what the hell was Murtaugh going to do with Bonnet during that time? Keep him as a prisoner at Fraser's Ridge? 

[Cdh20]

9 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I don't think the time lines are running concurrently. Briana looked like she had a five/six month baby bump, whereas last episode she was only two months gone and not showing. I think we're further along at Riverrun, but maybe not as far into the journey for Jamie and Claire.

Which leads me to my next question, if Jamie and Claire planned on being gone for half a year, what the hell was Murtaugh going to do with Bonnet during that time? Keep him as a prisoner at Fraser's Ridge? 

I think Marsali said something about keeping a criminal there-was she talking about Bonnet or Murtagh??

[BitterApple]

54 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I think Marsali said something about keeping a criminal there-was she talking about Bonnet or Murtagh??

I'm assuming Murtaugh.

[Juliegirlj]

Sir John is thoutful and careful in everything he does- and then has  sex with another dude in the pantry .........💩

Why couldn’t Brianna live in the safety of her Aunt’s estate until she knows what happened to Roger? Sure it is untraditional but so what?! 

Marsali and Fergus may be my favorite couple on the show now. 💕

Sir John loves Jamie. Is raising Jamie’s son. Will wed Jamie’s daughter......... Something very disturbing about these scenarios. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Juliegirlj said:

 

Sir John loves Jamie. Is raising Jamie’s son. Will wed Jamie’s daughter......... Something very disturbing about these scenarios. 

It's getting creepy. I think marrying Brianna was more about cementing John's ties to Jamie than it was about saving her honor.

Speaking of which, why the hell don't they just tell everyone Brianna had a husband who died? Would being a pregnant widow still qualify as expecting out of wedlock? Given the high mortality rates back then, I can't imagine such a scenario would be that unusual. 

[slaterain]

I was seeing John's proposal as buying her time for Jamie and Claire to find and bring Roger back. I really hope they don't go there with them actually marrying. 

The timeline thing is confusing. They said that the Mohawks had a week on them when they decided to track them down. Then they just now found the body of the one captive and said he had been dead a month. So how is it possible that they fell that far behind when all were riding compared to the mohawks who had some walking and were slowed down by the one captive until he died. Shouldn't they be gaining or at least maintaining the distance between them?!

[Hannah Lee]

30 minutes ago, slaterain said:

The timeline thing is confusing. They said that the Mohawks had a week on them when they decided to track them down. Then they just now found the body of the one captive and said he had been dead a month. So how is it possible that they fell that far behind when all were riding compared to the mohawks who had some walking and were slowed down by the one captive until he died. Shouldn't they be gaining or at least maintaining the distance between them?!

I agree the timeline is confusing, but say it took the Mohawks 5 weeks to get to where 3 Fingers died, and Team Find Roger left a week later and it took 4 weeks (give or take a day) for them to reach that spot, they would be 1 week or so behind the Mohawk and reach the guy about a month after he died.  

Add to that Jamie & Co may be all on horseback, but they have never traveled this route before, may not be taking the easiest/fastest route, whereas the Mohawk may be familiar with the route (where to cross streams/chasms, which trails are faster for where they are headed), if this is a known trade route they've used before.

The timelines in Outlander have always been a bit wibbly wobbly hand wavy even if you ignore the magic stones.  There are big events nailed down, but the passage of time is always a bit confusing.

[Cdh20]

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

It's getting creepy. I think marrying Brianna was more about cementing John's ties to Jamie than it was about saving her honor.

Speaking of which, why the hell don't they just tell everyone Brianna had a husband who died? Would being a pregnant widow still qualify as expecting out of wedlock? Given the high mortality rates back then, I can't imagine such a scenario would be that unusual. 

I think John is an honorable guy, so I hope he is just helping her out, with no real intention of actually marrying her. Jamie would not be happy about that! The only thing I found weird is him letting Bree know that he is in love with Jamie.

And yes, why not just say her husband is lost, dead, whatever, pretend she was really married to him not just handfast! 

 

And Yes-where were they planning to keep Bonnet for months?

Edited January 16, 2019 by Cdh20

[ganesh]

I had a huge laugh when Squirrel in the Garden Guy slipped out and they cut to our friend Lord John smirking. 

On 1/13/2019 at 11:36 AM, Hook75 said:

I don't like Brianna and I don't care for her or Roger. I hate that all stories now are revolved around her and that even Lord John is being dragged into it. Boring!

I do think story-wise, being at Riverrun opens it up some more. There's more characters. I'm interested in what's going on, but I can't say I like either of them. I don't need to like characters on a show to be engaged. I can't say I like Claire, but it's certainly interesting when she's around. Bree isn't boring per se, but it grates that she just lacks awareness and doesn't seem to be interested in acquiring it. She shouldn't know everything about everything, but not figuring out that of course the aunt is going to try to marry her off. I mean, come on. You can talk to the servants. They see everything and know what's going on. Or Ulysses. 

I mean, women's rights ranged between deplorable and nonexistent, so it's not her fault. There's no "I need to figure out what the hell is going on here."

A little cruel to John though. Honestly, she's better off with him. He at least knows what's going on and is well off. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by ganesh

[ganesh]

On 1/13/2019 at 9:48 PM, Cdh20 said:

Perhaps she could have gotten John to fake an engagement with out trying to blackmail him? 

She did once she was honest with him. When she threatened him he refused. Lesson there Bree. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by ganesh

[ganesh]

11 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Why couldn’t Brianna live in the safety of her Aunt’s estate until she knows what happened to Roger? Sure it is untraditional but so what?! 

The aunt was making a huge deal out of the baby being born out of wedlock, and given her society position that would be scandalous. If she's not pregnant, they might have had a workaround, but even that would be difficult.

9 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Would being a pregnant widow still qualify as expecting out of wedlock?

I think so. I think she still would be expected to remarry. 

I don't know why they couldn't have said he's a trader and in New York or something. Husbands weren't expected to be present for the birth I don't think. Or the truth - her husband was taken by the Mohawk and they're going to rescue him. 

Which again, this show, nothing is really ever thought through. Someone didn't think the aunt would try to marry her off? 

[Iguessnot]

An expectant widow is not bearing a child out of wedlock and no scandal is attached. Remarriage would ease her situation though. When Brianna arrived, her aunt was given knowledge of her condition. Both Brianna and Roger are strangers to this area, so all they needed to do was throw a ring on her finger and say her husband was missing, feared dead, etc. This storyline makes no sense.

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, Iguessnot said:

all they needed to do was throw a ring on her finger

And Claire just happens to have a spare ring!

[ganesh]

That seems like an easy fix too. I would have said something closer to the truth, leaving her a married woman still. 

The overall point though, while there seem to be good ideas here, is that much of the drama lately comes from not communicating effectively or thinking things through. 

[Cdh20]

I don't think anyone is loving this huge misunderstanding plot! 

[Scarlett45]

18 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

An expectant widow is not bearing a child out of wedlock and no scandal is attached. Remarriage would ease her situation though. When Brianna arrived, her aunt was given knowledge of her condition. Both Brianna and Roger are strangers to this area, so all they needed to do was throw a ring on her finger and say her husband was missing, feared dead, etc. This storyline makes no sense.

Exactly. I see Jocasta encouraging her to marry if she makes it to the birth and Roger hasn’t been found, but if she had any sense they would be pretending she was a recent widow OR her husband was missing. 

But then there’s less DRAMA. 

[ganesh]

The only drama was how soon our good friend Lord John was going to snare his squirrel in the garden. 

[Camera One]

I want to like Brianna, but she sure doesn't make it easy.  Why did she have to start by blackmailing John Grey instead of explaining her predicament with the other engagement?   I'm hoping John Grey and Brianna are envisioning a long engagement or an easily annulled marriage, and not a real one.   I usually like seeing John, but the conversation with Brianna was so uncomfortable to watch and unenjoyable. 

I was hoping John figuring out what the "squirrel" wanted was going to be a gradual thing.  Anyone could have walked in on them in the pantry.

I'm not sure what was so clever about Brianna's walk-in-the-forest "game".  

I'm all for non-violent episodes like this one, but it sort of dragged. 

Why does Jaime want Bonnet brought to him instead of dead outright?  Of course this will come to bite Jaime, so it's frustrating.

The fake-out with Roger taking a shower was cheap.  Why would he be having that vision walking out of the lake?  

The aunt is meddlesome as hell.  Did Jaime talk over the letter with Claire?  He should have said Brianna needed a place to stay and her husband was finishing some job in Boston or something.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Camera One

[gingerella]

Ai yi yi, this season...I now have less than half a page of notes, that's how uninspired I'm finding this story right now. Waaaay too many 'miscommunications' and it's not entertaining, it's annoying af.

The shower opening totally fooled me, good on them. But I assumed that the Mohawk found Roger again so it wasn't a huge shock either.

Since when does Brianna draw? I don't remember that at all from the Boston or Inverness scenes.

Marsali asking Murtagh to include Fergus was such an endearing moment, I really do love her and it's so odd because I hate her mother and hated her too when we first met her, but man has she grown on me. I think Fergus and Marsali are the smartest couple around right now. They keep their heads cool and clear and stay above the fray.

John Gray saves the day! But again, I knew he would come to her rescue and do exactly what he did so it wasn't a surprise. They practically telegraphed it to us, didn't they? I think he's willing to marry Brianna because it brings him closer to Jamie, making him actual family, but also, his love for Jamie is so strong that he'd do anything to help Jamie's daughter. He'd likely do the same for Claire if it came to that. He's a stand up guy when it comes to all things Fraser.

The fawning over Brianna at the dinner party was gross. That fat, frog-eyed little turd really annoyed me. And the fey little weasel who wanted to propose was annoying. And the other dude, who was schtupping Gray, it was obvious that he was into men by his convo with Brianna about what he saw during her little psych game.

It was painful to see Jamie and Claire so estranged for most of this episode. And it was a little heartbreaking when even Ian was begging Claire to make peace with Jamie.

Roger's Mohawk welcome party was too much for me. It's already old watching this poor guy get beat up and tortured. It's not entertaining me one iota.

*That's all I got folks. This was one of my least favorite S04 episodes.

[Camera One]

41 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Roger's Mohawk welcome party was too much for me. It's already old watching this poor guy get beat up and tortured. It's not entertaining me one iota.

I was catching up with a few recent period dramas (Bridgerton and Belgravia) and was actually pleasantly surprised to be watching something historical where I didn't have to worry about people getting tortured or threatened with death every other episode.

Yes, I can't believe that Marsali has actually become a favorite, considering how annoyed I was by her at the beginning.  I wish she and Fergus got more to do.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Camera One

[SassAndSnacks]

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

it's not entertaining, it's annoying af

I spat my coffee!!  YES!  Absolutely.  

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

I really do love her and it's so odd because I hate her mother and hated her too when we first met her, but man has she grown on me. I think Fergus and Marsali are the smartest couple around right now.

LOVE Lauren Lyle.  She really makes Marsali for me.  I loathed Marsali at first, too, but you could see even then there was a little something special about her.  She is such a gem.  

I'm not a big interview-watcher, but during a recent procrastination session, I checked out a panel with the actors for Marsali, Fergus, and Young Ian.  They were incredibly funny and charming.  They need a reality show or a podcast or something.  I need so much more of these three.  

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

John Gray saves the day!

He is the only thing that makes these scenes tolerable.  

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

It was painful to see Jamie and Claire so estranged for most of this episode. And it was a little heartbreaking when even Ian was begging Claire to make peace with Jamie.

I'm super fortunate to be one-half of a hugely supportive, loving marriage, but even we get off-kilter.  I thought the portrayal of this was spot on.  Sometimes, when you are angry or frustrated or even just trying to sort out a situation with your partner, it can be so hard to simply break the silence.  And the longer the silence goes on, the harder it is to break for so many reasons - you don't want to hurt their feelings, you want to be sure you are being reasonable, it doesn't matter anymore.  In what was a relatively weak episode, those long looks J&C were giving each other felt so familiar and real.  When this show gets things right, it gets them very right.  

Edited October 16, 2021 by SassAndSnacks

[gingerella]

12 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

 

I'm super fortunate to be one-half of a hugely supportive, loving marriage, but even we get off-kilter.  I thought the portrayal of this was spot on.  Sometimes, when you are angry or frustrated or even just trying to sort out a situation with your partner, it can be so hard to simply break the silence.  And the longer the silence goes on, the harder it is to break for so many reasons - you don't want to hurt their feelings, you want to be sure you are being reasonable, it doesn't matter anymore.  In what was a relatively weak episode, those long looks J&C were giving each other felt so familiar and real.  When this show gets things right, it gets them very righ

Yes to all of this. You hit the nail on the head, this is a perfect description. And what makes it even sweeter is that Ian is learning about how to communicate with a partner through J&C, which I love 

[Anothermi]

Something I miss this season is the changing intro segments and the amuse bouche (as @gingerella calls the opening teasers). Wonder why they stopped making them?

 

So, we have been given a glimpse of Brianna as an artist. I wonder if there was supposed to be a link back to when she had her conversation with Roger about her interest in architecture (or was that engineering?). Anyway, drawing skills would come in handy for either of those callings. But I think the main reason Brianna's ability to draw has been highlighted NOW is so that Aunt Jocasta and tell us more about Grandmother Ellen, and how much she and Brianna are alike. The conversation with Lizzie over the darkness of the drawing of Roger was pretty much redundant, in my view, because we already knew Bri had forgiven Lizzie. Still I'm not complaining about the exchange. I liked that Brianna was able to turn Lizzie's “you've been possessed!” into the more reasonable “no, I'm just very hurt and angry”. That's educating Lizzie on the fly, from where I sit, that there doesn't have to be some supernatural explanation for dark words, thoughts or images. It was also helpful to be reminded that Bri is angry at Jamie because he accused her of lying about being raped (“the words he said”). I was a little taken aback (now that I think of it) that on the one hand, the show writers had Jamie deliberately provoke Brianna about lying about the rape to get her to realize she could not have fought back, and then go on to have him repeat the words (or words to that effect) in earnest a short while later.

I was grateful to Aunt Jocasta for the sprinkling of details about Jamie's mother. Claire didn't even know that about Ellen. And hopefully we'll get more—since Jocasta hinted that there were more stories to get into—but I won't be holding my breath for them to be told. Jocasta is a canny woman and knew just how to get Bri to agree to the “social engagement”. 

Young Ian, once again, gets to be a chip off the old block (Old Ian) and speak to the wall going up between Claire and Jamie. His character is so likeable. I even liked how he threw in the information that the Cherokee wouldn't guide them because they had no reason to enter Mohawk lands—meaning they had mutual respect for each other's boundaries.

Next on the list of likeable characters comes Fergus and Marsali. Agree with the rest of you that she has grown on me and they are a very likeable couple. Fergus isn't completely diminished by how he is treated due to missing a hand—he knows that Jamie sees him as a whole man. But Marsali can see that it is bothering him. She's got her mother's wiles, but she utilizes them for more positive goals. I realized she expected that Fergus would decline when Murtagh asked him to fight beside him, but that the request would build him back up.

Poor Brianna, only finding out when she comes down to the dinner that she's being paraded before eligible bachelors. At least I enjoyed seeing the pompous Lieutenant Wolff—from back when Clair and Jamie arrived who had been fawning all over Jocasta—getting one upped by the other, equally smarmy, guy. 

I have to admit that when I heard that one of the guests was a Lord, I never gave it a though. Must be the amount of time we've allowed to elapse between episodes because I didn't suspect it would be Lord John until I saw him. I was pleased anyway. I also liked how much maneuvering Jocasta had to do to downplay Brianna's casual remark about drawing the “slave” Phaerdre. And Brianna blithely continuing the conversation in spite of that. One exchange between Jocasta and Brianna that I really enjoyed was later after Brianna pretended to faint so she wouldn't have to go out to walk with one of the suitors. Brianna sent Ulysses away so she could talk with Jocasta alone and started “May I speak frankly?” Jocasta's reply was a sardonic “Of course. Ye've been doing so all evening.” I just laughed out loud. 

I expected a bit more of a double take from Lord John when he saw Brianna, but perhaps he knew she would be there in advance—I don't remember if we were told—and knew from Willie to expect how much Brianna would resemble Jamie.

I did find the parlour game Brianna devised was a long and heavy handed way to alert Lord John to the other gay man in the room and to lead to Brianna learning about Lord Johns sexual preferences. The only interesting thing to come of it—from my perspective—was to see Brianna's “modern” view on homosexuality get knocked over when Lord John explained to her he was quite capable of carrying out his husbandly duties. She wasn't expecting that.

Otherwise this part was a bit of blah, blah, blah to me except that—where Lord John is concerned—everyone close to Jamie ends up having a uniquely personal relationship with him. I did like seeing him stride to the rescue at the last minute. Lord John is alway's charming and reliable. Plus he gave the keynote speech on having hope. I doubt they will marry in haste. 

And for a change I loved Jamie and Claire making up to each other. (probably because I didn't feel like such a voyeur). 

I'm going to treat Roger's last scene like Roger's first scene—I'm going to consider it a fake out. 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Anothermi

[SassAndSnacks]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:20 AM, Anothermi said:

Brianna sent Ulysses away so she could talk with Jocasta alone and started “May I speak frankly?” Jocasta's reply was a sardonic “Of course. Ye've been doing so all evening.” I just laughed out loud.

I'm enjoying the Jocasta/Bree exchanges as well, mostly because it shows that while Brianna has a lot of Fraser, she also has a whole lot of Mackenzie in her, too.

[gingerella]

12 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I'm enjoying the Jocasta/Bree exchanges as well, mostly because it shows that while Brianna has a lot of Fraser, she also has a whole lot of Mackenzie in her, too.

Hmmm...I hadn't thought of this but she's 1/4 MacKenzie, and Roger is 1/4 MacKenzie...Do I need an 'ewww' emoji?!?

[Cdh20]

12 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I'm enjoying the Jocasta/Bree exchanges as well, mostly because it shows that while Brianna has a lot of Fraser, she also has a whole lot of Mackenzie in her, too.

 I think she got the speaking frankly from Claire! 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

18 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Hmmm...I hadn't thought of this but she's 1/4 MacKenzie, and Roger is 1/4 MacKenzie...Do I need an 'ewww' emoji?!?

They're second cousins five times removed. They don't share much more DNA than any two random people.

Actually, even considering first cousins incestuous is relatively new. It goes back to a eugenics study decades ago that exaggerated the risks. So second cousins five times removed is nothing.

(Jamie and the son of Dougal and Geillis are first cousins. Brianna and the son of that son are second cousins, and Roger is five generations removed from Dougal and Geillis's grandson.)

Edited October 19, 2021 by Noneofyourbusiness