Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[balmz]

14 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Fallout is a pretty good episode, one of season 17’s stronger outings. I found the defendant sympathetic, he was placed in an impossible position basically, but vigilante justice isn’t okay and by poisoning his victim with ricin, he potentially exposed others to it and could’ve caused a panic. His final sentence of 10 years was fair I thought.

It’s a good episode, I liked seeing McCoy and Branch deal with the Russian consulate, and I liked seeing Jack’s daughter at the end, it was the only time in the show we ever saw her. While Detective Beauty Queen sucked and dragged the season down, I liked the McCoy/Rubirosa/Branch legal side, Rubirosa was a great addition and was so much better than Borgia or Serena.

Good point about them not mentioning the ricin poisoning to the Consulate, but I’m sure the Consulate found out about it soon afterwards, I doubt it would’ve changed their minds. 

enjoyed the episode myself 

 

i think though jack's daughter was seen in the episode where some hitman was attacking lawyers and had jack on his kill list, don't remember the name but i know fontana and green were partners then

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, balmz said:

enjoyed the episode myself 

 

i think though jack's daughter was seen in the episode where some hitman was attacking lawyers and had jack on his kill list, don't remember the name but i know fontana and green were partners then

No that wasn’t Jack’s daughter, that was a girlfriend-woman Jack was on a date with, that was the episode Criminal Law when Fontana and Green had to pull Jack off the street to warn him he was in danger. In the season 17 premiere, it was revealed Jack hadn’t seen or spoken to his daughter in 9 years, at the end of that episode he received pictures of his daughter that his put in his desk drawer, I guess he reached out to her at some point over the course of season 17, because we saw her meet with Jack at the restaurant at the end of Fallout. 

[Xeliou66]

I watched Betrayal tonight, good episode, this is where McCoy and Olivet clashed over the case and McCoy told Cutter about Olivet sleeping with a detective that she was treating (possibly Logan) and Cutter used it to discredit Olivet. I was 100% on Jack’s side here, Olivet was letting her emotional bias get in the way of her objectivity, as McCoy said, she testified on behalf of a woman who murdered her husband in cold blood and would’ve killed anyone she found in his office, Olivet was on her high horse the whole time, she was just pissed about the strategy the prosecutors were using so she offered to testify for the defense, like I say her emotions clouded her judgment and her testimony made her look like a massive hypocrite, the way she testified about how damaging it was for a shrink to have sex with a patient only to find out she’s guilty of that herself. I liked Olivet overall but she looked awful in this episode, and Skoda will always be my favorite shrink.

Green and Lupo were the detectives in this episode, and I liked that pairing a lot, they were only together for 14 episodes but they were a good partnership. Their investigation was good and I liked how it proceeded.

I liked seeing Jack getting on his motorcycle in the parking garage.

[ML89]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:I watched Betrayal tonight, good episode, this is where McCoy and Olivet clashed over the case and McCoy told Cutter about Olivet sleeping with a detective that she was treating (possibly Logan) and Cutter used it to discredit Olivet.

I hated that whole thing with Olivet, considering when she could have been sleeping with Logan (which I also don’t buy), it was right before she tore up another psychologist for doing that in Season 3 (Promises to Keep). I like Olivet with Logan as friends and I thought this was a bit of a cheap shot even though it was around the time that Mothership did more with everyone’s backstories and also when Logan was on CI so we’d all make the connection. 

I did like Green and Lupo as a team, though. 

 

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, ML89 said:

I hated that whole thing with Olivet, considering when she could have been sleeping with Logan (which I also don’t buy), it was right before she tore up another psychologist for doing that in Season 3 (Promises to Keep). I like Olivet with Logan as friends and I thought this was a bit of a cheap shot even though it was around the time that Mothership did more with everyone’s backstories and also when Logan was on CI so we’d all make the connection. 

I did like Green and Lupo as a team, though. 

 

We don’t know for sure whether it was Logan that Olivet slept with, but either way it made Olivet look very bad. She came across as extremely hypocritical with how she testified that shrink/patient sex was always harmful and could lead to violence and then it turns out she had sex with a patient herself. I was totally on Jack’s side though, Olivet’s testimony needed to be discredited. It was interesting that I think there were still some hard feelings there a couple of episodes later in Angelgrove when Olivet is in McCoy’s office to discuss a case and they kind of glare at each other as she’s leaving and McCoy just sort of sheepishly says “thanks Liz”.

I liked the Lupo/Green pairing a lot, wish they had been together for more episodes, though Lupo/Bernard was a good partnership as well. I like Lupo a lot, he’s one of my favorite detectives. I think Van Buren liked Lupo a lot, she spoke highly of him from his time as a patrol officer and got him on the Homicide squad when he came back to America after his brother’s death. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I liked the Lupo/Green pairing a lot, wish they had been together for more episodes, though Lupo/Bernard was a good partnership as well. I like Lupo a lot, he’s one of my favorite detectives. I think Van Buren liked Lupo a lot, she spoke highly of him from his time as a patrol officer and got him on the Homicide squad when he came back to America after his brother’s death. 

I liked all of these characters too (and will just say I am annoyed at how they wrote Olivet) but when I watch these actors on other shows, even though they are still good actors, they never seem to have the same dynamic with their costars. 

[WendyCR72]

For anyone who has not seen Jerry Orbach as Not!Lennie! - attorney Frank Lehrman in S2 - "Wages of Love" will be airing on WE this coming Sunday, April 18th, at 1:00 p.m. ET.

[balmz]

heh with that episode and the lady everyone hates, i am reminded of a thing i saw on tv tropes

Hilarious in Hindsight:

In season 2, episode "The Wages of Love", the Victim of the Week was a Mr. Edward Cullen.

 

just for fun, anyone ever watch or read the twilight series?

 

I read the books once just to see what the hype was about, was very meh about the series in general, nothing that good or interesting to me

 

also just for fun for anyone who did read or watch the twilight series, say that lady in wages of love really did kill edward and bella cullen, would you have found her more sympathetic or at least not as annoying? also if she was a vampire she might instead say they were married for 250 years instead

[Xeliou66]

I’m glad they will be showing the early seasons again, it’s been ages since I’ve last seen an episode with Ben Stone. The early seasons are very good, they get overshadowed by the later seasons but I really like all of the characters in the early years (minus Greevey, I’m not a big fan of him) and they had a lot of solid episodes.

[shapeshifter]

14.23 "Caviar Emptor" just aired on ION, in which:

Quote

The day after his marriage to a much younger woman, a caviar entrepreneur is found dead and the suspects include his bride and his daughter from his first marriage.

Some of you may recall, at the end of trial, when it becomes obvious that the daughter will be convicted, her husband claims he did it, leading to the daughter being acquitted and her husband led away to be charged with her father's murder. Aside from the daughter's husband's behavior seeming out of line with the patriarchy of their family unit, doesn't this also mean that the daughter can now confess to the murder herself since she cannot be convicted under the law of double jeopardy? --and that this would get the husband off, except for a charge of perjury? 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

14.23 "Caviar Emptor" just aired on ION, in which:

Some of you may recall, at the end of trial, when it becomes obvious that the daughter will be convicted, her husband claims he did it, leading to the daughter being acquitted and her husband led away to be charged with her father's murder. Aside from the daughter's husband's behavior seeming out of line with the patriarchy of their family unit, doesn't this also mean that the daughter can now confess to the murder herself since she cannot be convicted under the law of double jeopardy? --and that this would get the husband off, except for a charge of perjury? 

Yes I’ve thought about this as well - I don’t think they could ever convict the husband of anything more than perjury and obstruction because he could just say he lied about being the killer to protect his wife, and they had made a solid case against the wife, and yeah the wife could say she did it and couldn’t be retried. So yeah they simply couldn’t put anyone away for that murder. Pretty good episode.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

14.23 "Caviar Emptor" just aired on ION, in which:

Some of you may recall, at the end of trial, when it becomes obvious that the daughter will be convicted, her husband claims he did it, leading to the daughter being acquitted and her husband led away to be charged with her father's murder. Aside from the daughter's husband's behavior seeming out of line with the patriarchy of their family unit, doesn't this also mean that the daughter can now confess to the murder herself since she cannot be convicted under the law of double jeopardy? --and that this would get the husband off, except for a charge of perjury? 

I guess it would depend.  they could say all that, but if they went ahead and tried him, it would all come down to what that jury believed.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I guess it would depend.  they could say all that, but if they went ahead and tried him, it would all come down to what that jury believed.

I’m just not sure the DA’s would try him for murder given that they had already tried the wife and it would be pretty easy for the defense to create reasonable doubt, so I’m pretty sure a murder charge wouldn’t stick. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m just not sure the DA’s would try him for murder given that they had already tried the wife and it would be pretty easy for the defense to create reasonable doubt, so I’m pretty sure a murder charge wouldn’t stick. 

Good point. 
That explains why Sam Waterston as Jack McCoy delivered this line with such vehemence: 

• "You know, Mr. Koutal, lying under oath is a serious offense!"

(after the husband claimed to have murdered his father-in-law).

It foreshadows that Jack intends to try to get the maximum sentence for perjury. 
Whether he can do that either, is another thing.

[Xeliou66]

18 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Good point. 
That explains why Sam Waterston as Jack McCoy delivered this line with such vehemence: 

• "You know, Mr. Koutal, lying under oath is a serious offense!"

(after the husband claimed to have murdered his father-in-law).

It foreshadows that Jack intends to try to get the maximum sentence for perjury. 
Whether he can do that either, is another thing.

Yeah Jack was furious at how they managed to escape justice. I’m pretty sure the wife was the killer, and I think the husband would face punishment for perjury and obstruction, but no one would be convicted of the murder, and I think Jack had a feeling about that as soon as the husband confessed.

I like that episode, it had some good legal scenes, I like Rothenberg as a defense attorney, and I liked the scene of Skoda’s testimony, Skoda will forever be my favorite psych expert in the L&O universe, and he added to every episode he was in.

[shapeshifter]

But can they bring the husband up on charges of obstruction and perjury if the wife was acquitted? 
The last we see is the husband being led away to presumably face charges of murder after confessing in open court.
I guess Jack will offer to accept a plea to the obstruction and perjury in exchange for dropping the murder charges, but wouldn't the husband's lawyer say no to that, knowing he'll be acquitted? 
IDK.
It would have been a very confusing Part 2, so it's probably a good thing they didn't follow up on it.

 

11 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Skoda will forever be my favorite psych expert in the L&O universe, and he added to every episode he was in.

I would also say that J. K. Simmons (who played Skoda) elevates every scene he's ever been in that I've ever seen.
He was great in Counterpart.

Maybe the L&O writers wrote his part better because he was a better actor?

 

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

But can they bring the husband up on charges of obstruction and perjury if the wife was acquitted? 
The last we see is the husband being led away to presumably face charges of murder after confessing in open court.
I guess Jack will offer to accept a plea to the obstruction and perjury in exchange for dropping the murder charges, but wouldn't the husband's lawyer say no to that, knowing he'll be acquitted? 
IDK.
It would have been a very confusing Part 2, so it's probably a good thing they didn't follow up on it.

 

I would also say that J. K. Simmons (who played Skoda) elevates every scene he's ever been in that I've ever seen.
He was great in Counterpart.

Yeah it would be a hard case to make for any charges and I doubt either of them would do jail time, it was one of those frustrating cases where justice wasn’t served, but sometimes those cases happen, I liked how L&O didn’t always have happy endings where everything was neatly resolved.

Yeah Skoda is awesome and JK Simmons is a great actor, Skoda is my favorite recurring character in the L&O universe, along with ME Rodgers.

[balmz]

with the recent blm in the news , police violence and the George Floyd verdict, i was reminded of the episode mushrooms which had an early appearance of   Epatha in it 

 

i remember how there was a scene when they were interrogating a teen with his mom present and when the kid refuses to talk the mother gets mad and slaps him fullforce in the face saying " you think you can play this fool game with me"

notably logan and max do not really react or object to it at all, in fact earlier in the episode when they were questioning a teen without a parent, logan actually dope slaps the kid in the back of the head, not like the mom did but still..

 

it's a contrast to the slave episode where the one black father slaps his son not wanting him to get in trouble and then van buren reprimands curtis for not stopping it sooner

 

what's your thoughts  on how the original law and order handled matters of race with black people and the police

 

also i recall how some people here disliked curtis in the slave episode for not stopping the father but notably i never heard any complaints with the mom in mushrooms who slapped her kid with a slap that would put bow from paper mario to shame

was wondering why people didn't object to that while they did object to curtis in slave

[Xeliou66]

16 hours ago, balmz said:

with the recent blm in the news , police violence and the George Floyd verdict, i was reminded of the episode mushrooms which had an early appearance of   Epatha in it 

 

i remember how there was a scene when they were interrogating a teen with his mom present and when the kid refuses to talk the mother gets mad and slaps him fullforce in the face saying " you think you can play this fool game with me"

notably logan and max do not really react or object to it at all, in fact earlier in the episode when they were questioning a teen without a parent, logan actually dope slaps the kid in the back of the head, not like the mom did but still..

 

it's a contrast to the slave episode where the one black father slaps his son not wanting him to get in trouble and then van buren reprimands curtis for not stopping it sooner

 

what's your thoughts  on how the original law and order handled matters of race with black people and the police

 

also i recall how some people here disliked curtis in the slave episode for not stopping the father but notably i never heard any complaints with the mom in mushrooms who slapped her kid with a slap that would put bow from paper mario to shame

was wondering why people didn't object to that while they did object to curtis in slave

Interesting - I don’t remember the scene in Mushrooms you are talking about, but I think that police should never allow anyone to be assaulted while in their custody, and I thought Van Buren was right to berate Curtis for allowing the dad to hit his kid in Slave. Curtis was a sanctimonious, self righteous ass much of the time.

Overall I thought the show did a decent job with regards to portraying issues of race and the justice system. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Interesting - I don’t remember the scene in Mushrooms you are talking about, but I think that police should never allow anyone to be assaulted while in their custody, and I thought Van Buren was right to berate Curtis for allowing the dad to hit his kid in Slave. Curtis was a sanctimonious, self righteous ass much of the time.

Overall I thought the show did a decent job with regards to portraying issues of race and the justice system. 

It was a powerful scene. Regina Taylor’s son refused t tell the cops where he got the guns and he was disrespectful with his “no”. So she slapped him. Then told them it was his cousin.

 

[Xeliou66]

I’m so glad they are back to showing the early seasons - they are really good, they have great cases and characters 

I just watched Blood Is Thicker, this is a fantastic episode, really great plot, I don’t recall it ever being discussed on here but I love this episode, some really good twists from start to finish, with the case basically resting on the silver pin the victim was wearing and that the husband took off the corpse, with the twists of the defense introducing several seemingly identical pins and then the final twist of the victim’s lover testifying about the engraving on the pin that made it unique.

Each character had some good lines, I loved Cerreta’s “yes he lives on the West Side” when the mom went on how the victim’s boyfriend was so “foreign”. I really like the cast of that season, all good characters that had good chemistry, I like seeing Cragen on these early seasons, and of course Schiff had a funny moment in this episode when he went off about the defense producing more pins and said it was “probably the lousiest staff work” he’d ever seen.

Really a great episode even though there’s nothing that really makes it stand out, just a classic L&O plot of investigation and legal stuff, but it was really good.

[wknt3]

I wonder if we're going to see any of the mothership defense attorneys as regulars?

‘Law & Order: For The Defense’ Spinoff From Dick Wolf & Carol Mendelsohn Gets NBC Series Order

Law & Order Criminal Attorney Drama For the Defense Gets Series Order

 

[Door County Cherry]

6 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I wonder if we're going to see any of the mothership defense attorneys as regulars?

They need to bring back Peter Jacobson as Dworkin!

[ifionlyknew]

20 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I wonder if we're going to see any of the mothership defense attorneys as regulars?

‘Law & Order: For The Defense’ Spinoff From Dick Wolf & Carol Mendelsohn Gets NBC Series Order

Law & Order Criminal Attorney Drama For the Defense Gets Series Order

 

I'm looking forward to this.  They have dozens of characters to bring on if they want.  

There is a list of them about halfway down the page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Law_%26_Order_characters#Defense_attorneys

Edited May 4, 2021 by ifionlyknew

[FormerMod-a1]

Sounds kind of like The Practice, but with a Dick Wolf vibe rather than David E Kelley.  I'll be watching.

[Xeliou66]

I just saw ID, season 7 episode 2, and I don’t recall this episode ever being discussed but this has to be the funniest episode in L&O history - some of the scenes were downright hilarious. Judge Marks was off his rocker and a creepy perv and it made for some quite memorable scenes, and the scene where Schiff visits McCoy in his holding cell is awesome, where Jack quips about Schiff going to see creepy perv Judge Marks “if you go, wear silk” and the look Schiff gives him is hilarious.

It was also funny how Marks would just hijack the questioning of witnesses. Marks was an epic egotistical prick who thought he could do and say whatever the hell he wanted.

Schiff was awesome as usual, I love he how confronted Marks about his inappropriate behavior, you could tell he was disappointed that Marks had become an arrogant shithead and he took no pleasure in taking him down but did what he needed to do.

The case was really good, with the woman killing her sister in cold blood to steal her identity, and you could tell how ice cold the killer was in the scene at the end in McCoy’s office, saying “my sister didn’t have a life”.

The detective from New Jersey who was enjoying a fancy meal while visiting NY was funny as well.

I love this episode, and like I say it has to be the funniest in L&O history.

[shapeshifter]

I never found 7.2 "I.D." amusing. Mileage varies.

[ifionlyknew]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

and the scene where Schiff visits McCoy in his holding cell is awesome, where Jack quips about Schiff going to see creepy perv Judge Marks “if you go, wear silk” and the look Schiff gives him is hilarious.

The whole scene of Adam talking to McCoy in the  holding cell was great.  Jack introducing Adam to his fellow cellmate and the cellmate saying he was going to be getting out soon and Adam says sit down or something like that.  Makes me chuckle every time I see it.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I never found 7.2 "I.D." amusing. Mileage varies.

I wouldn't say the episode was amusing but there were some scenes and lines that were I think meant to be humorous.  

 

Nice. JACK: Adam.

Mr. Barton, Mr. Jasperson,
Mr. Montoya... Mr. Schiff.

We're in a good mood, aren't we?

All except Mr. Jasperson. He
was just convicted of murder.

And it was bull. I'm gonna
be getting out of here soon.

Young man, sit down.

I understand you
were in contempt.

Just a little.

Are you going to
get the transcript

to the chief
administrative judge?

I'm going to see Judge
Marks first, about bail.

I'm okay. But if
you go, wear silk.
 

[txhorns79]

S. Epatha Merkerson was on "Celebrity" Antiques Roadshow, and they visited her home.  In a case where she keeps all her acting awards, she also has the Lt. A. Van Buren nameplate that was on her character's desk from the show.   I thought that was very nice. 

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

The whole scene of Adam talking to McCoy in the  holding cell was great.  Jack introducing Adam to his fellow cellmate and the cellmate saying he was going to be getting out soon and Adam says sit down or something like that.  Makes me chuckle every time I see it.

I wouldn't say the episode was amusing but there were some scenes and lines that were I think meant to be humorous.  

 

Nice. JACK: Adam.

Mr. Barton, Mr. Jasperson,
Mr. Montoya... Mr. Schiff.

We're in a good mood, aren't we?

All except Mr. Jasperson. He
was just convicted of murder.

And it was bull. I'm gonna
be getting out of here soon.

Young man, sit down.

I understand you
were in contempt.

Just a little.

Are you going to
get the transcript

to the chief
administrative judge?

I'm going to see Judge
Marks first, about bail.

I'm okay. But if
you go, wear silk.
 

The scene where Schiff visits McCoy in his cell is downright hilarious IMO, makes me laugh every time as well.

I just think there’s quite a few amusing lines and moments in ID, more than in most L&O episodes. Judge Marks was such an over the top, pompous creep who thought the rules didn’t apply to him, he made for an entertaining and very unlikable character. Schiff was great as always in this episode, I really liked how he confronted Marks and then at the end how he took no pleasure in taking down Marks, who used to be a good judge.

The detectives encountered some funny characters as well during their investigation. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 4/24/2021 at 3:36 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

It was a powerful scene. Regina Taylor’s son refused t tell the cops where he got the guns and he was disrespectful with his “no”. So she slapped him. Then told them it was his cousin.

Yeah, she was already mad because of having to be at the police station, and the kid smarted off to her, trying to be tough. Because he said something flippant to Logan too, since Mike told him that tough and stupid was  a bad combination, and the boy says, "Hey, it works for you, man." They only ended up getting him to drop the attitude because his mom wouldn't put up with it. "You think you can play this fool game with me?!"

[Xeliou66]

I’m watching season 4 tonight, these early seasons have some great episodes, I wish they were shown more often, they have some really good episodes. I watched Profile tonight, this episode has some of the best witness testimony from the older black man who survived being shot by the serial killer, when under cross examination about his ID of the killer’s voice he passionately says “I remember the voice of the first white man who told me not to come into his store. I remember the voice of the doctor who told me I had a healthy son. And I remember the voice of the man who took out a gun and shot me!!”

This was one of the only times Stone nearly got held in contempt by a judge when he went after Judge Pongracic for releasing the killer on bail during the trial. Ben had such a different style than Jack McCoy, who was nearly held in contempt many times, I love them both, but they had radically different styles. I completely understood Stone’s outrage and as a result of Pongracic’s stupid decision another innocent person nearly died. 

I like the cast of season 4, it was unique in that it was Van Buren and Kincaid’s first season and Stone’s last, and Briscoe and Logan were a great pairing and of course Schiff is awesome. Every season of L&O is good but I really wish seasons 1-4 were shown more often, the episodes are so good. 

[balmz]

had a question based off how svu is getting a followup episode to born psychopath, if l&o had more seasons or whatever, what past cases do you think would be good for followups? indifference and fixed were one example

 

i think a follow up of the guy who killed max might be interesting, like he is up for parole, maybe it could cover the mafia trying to get him free or as an interesting twist unlike mad dog, the guy really did have a change of heart and remorse, might be interesting to cover that also

 

also killerz is another obvious choice

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, balmz said:

had a question based off how svu is getting a followup episode to born psychopath, if l&o had more seasons or whatever, what past cases do you think would be good for followups? indifference and fixed were one example

 

i think a follow up of the guy who killed max might be interesting, like he is up for parole, maybe it could cover the mafia trying to get him free or as an interesting twist unlike mad dog, the guy really did have a change of heart and remorse, might be interesting to cover that also

 

also killerz is another obvious choice

Good question. L&O did do follow ups a few times, Indifference/Fixed as you mentioned, also with Coma/Encore in seasons 5-6, and to a degree with Conspiracy/Entrapment in seasons 3-7, and then one of the cases from Mayhem was followed up on in the SVU/L&O crossover Entitled.

Killerz is the most obvious choice, it would’ve made for a compelling follow up to see whether the sociopath little girl would kill again, I definitely think she would.

Sweetie from season 19 would’ve been an interesting follow up to see if they ever could build a case against Kate Tenny for the murder.

Reality Bites from season 20 where apparently they were trying to make a reality show around the murder and were even recruiting Arthur Branch to be on it, that could’ve been an interesting follow up.

And I always wondered about the killer in Marathon who gave Briscoe a hard time and then got a good plea deal because he turned in a rapist, I think he would’ve killed again once he got out in 6 years, that could’ve been a good follow up. 

 

 

[Chyromaniac]

Profile is a weird one for me.  It almost feels like it would’ve been a better CI episode (or even CSI) than regular L&O.  All the stuff at the start is great, with them building the profile and canvassing the area.  Mike undercover as the homeless guy was a fun touch, and Lennie really got to shine as the streetwise cop from the old neighborhood.  I also liked how they subverted the “cops vs. feds” trope, given that both tactics contributed to solving the case.

 The courtroom half is good too, up to a point- however it really feels like that whole section was sort of reverse engineered from that final scene.  It’s a powerful moment, but it seems like they had to throw so many elements in during the scenes leading up to it, that it doesn’t quite work as a story for me.  Like, the James Earl Jones character just kind of disappears, there’s no resolution to the actual trial... And yeah, it’s a stretch that a suspected serial killer would be freed after just one potential copycat.  But it all just goes away so the cops can finally locate Tunney’s gun stash, and try to stop him.  I also think it’s weird that a guy who is basically only out of jail on a technicality would immediately try to do another murder- but that’s just me.

[Xeliou66]

Profile was a bit of a deviation from the usual formula with the focus shifting back to the police at the end trying to track the killer down, but it worked really well IMO. It was an intense episode with some really good moments. I liked seeing Stone get into it with the judge, I agree the judge’s decision to grant bail was stupid but judges do make stupid decisions. I liked how the episode ended on an intense note with the killer being shot while trying to commit another murder. And of course I loved the testimony of the surviving witness that I talked about above. 

[andromeda331]

What do you guys think episode Nuture? The teacher who kidnaps Wendy abused 10 year old from her foster mom? Who also confuses Wendy occasionally with her daughter Crystal who died as a baby. To the point she even had a birthday party for Crystal while Wendy was with her.  She clearly needs therapy. In the end she goes free. Mostly because Wendy doesn't want her to go to jail. Which I get. She's a kid who doesn't want her teacher to go to jail and compared to her mother and foster mother her teacher seemed like a dream. That's a lot to put on a kid who's been through a lot. But her teacher clearly has problems. She kidnapped a kid before from foster care but didn't go to jail then either. No charges were brought against her. She only seems to pick girls who are the same as her daughter would be. At the end of the episode the teacher files to adopt Wendy. We don't know what happens. But for the girl's sake I hope she didn't end up with Wendy. How long until she started just calling Wendy, Crystal? Wanting her to be like Crystal. What if Wendy does something she doesn't like or isn't like how she thinks Crystal would be? What would the teacher do? Would Wendy just go along with it because she doesn't want to go back to foster care? She's going to end up messed up her care. Too bad there's not a better option for her.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

What do you guys think episode Nuture? The teacher who kidnaps Wendy abused 10 year old from her foster mom? Who also confuses Wendy occasionally with her daughter Crystal who died as a baby. To the point she even had a birthday party for Crystal while Wendy was with her.  She clearly needs therapy. In the end she goes free. Mostly because Wendy doesn't want her to go to jail. Which I get. She's a kid who doesn't want her teacher to go to jail and compared to her mother and foster mother her teacher seemed like a dream. That's a lot to put on a kid who's been through a lot. But her teacher clearly has problems. She kidnapped a kid before from foster care but didn't go to jail then either. No charges were brought against her. She only seems to pick girls who are the same as her daughter would be. At the end of the episode the teacher files to adopt Wendy. We don't know what happens. But for the girl's sake I hope she didn't end up with Wendy. How long until she started just calling Wendy, Crystal? Wanting her to be like Crystal. What if Wendy does something she doesn't like or isn't like how she thinks Crystal would be? What would the teacher do? Would Wendy just go along with it because she doesn't want to go back to foster care? She's going to end up messed up her care. Too bad there's not a better option for her.

Reading your excellent synopsis of the issues, @andromeda331, especially after not having seen it in probably a year, I think the goal of the writer(s) was to impress upon the viewers how crappy all the foster care options typically are. Probably a child who grows up in foster care is most fortunate to have a home in which they are provided for by foster parents who are not overly involved and therefore don’t have a lot of psychological baggage themselves. 😟

[stonehaven]

Saw that episode last night and found it said but the performances of Camryn Manheim and Christine Baranski were fantastic.

Still, the whole thing about making the girl lie down in the back seat made me realize the teacher knew what she was doing was wrong. 

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, stonehaven said:

the whole thing about making the girl lie down in the back seat made me realize the teacher knew what she was doing was wrong

I forgot about that part --which is actually a good sign that the future adoptive mother at least isn't totally dissociating. 

[Xeliou66]

It’s been a while since I’ve seen Nurture, I didn’t catch it last night, but I always thought that the teacher/kidnapper should’ve gone into a mental facility, she needed help and she absolutely shouldn’t be awarded custody of the little girl. Sadly there was no good option for the little girl. 

[balmz]

from tv tropes ymmv about that

unintentionally sympathetic 

Arnette Fenady from "Nurture". Yes, she kidnapped one of her students, misled the cops, didn't report the kid's continued abuse, and hid her in a basement. Yes, it's also true she's got several screws loose and is blatantly looking for a Replacement Goldfish because she never got over the loss of her own child. But once the girl's self-absorbed asshole of a foster mother ("So I left her home alone all night, let my boyfriend beat her up, and forced her to walk through a bad part of town to do all our laundry. So what?") expressed a complete disregard for her, and the apathetic Department of Child Disservices administrator testified that they didn't intervene after the school reported her abuse because the kid wasn't beaten and neglected enough compared to others in their system? Well, Fenday looks more a Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right!, even if she does have multiple loose screws. Schiff lampshades this several times in the episode. It isn't a surprise that she's found Not Guilty of all charges.

 

not my pov but interesting

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

What do you guys think episode Nuture? The teacher who kidnaps Wendy abused 10 year old from her foster mom? Who also confuses Wendy occasionally with her daughter Crystal who died as a baby. To the point she even had a birthday party for Crystal while Wendy was with her.  She clearly needs therapy. In the end she goes free. Mostly because Wendy doesn't want her to go to jail. Which I get. She's a kid who doesn't want her teacher to go to jail and compared to her mother and foster mother her teacher seemed like a dream. That's a lot to put on a kid who's been through a lot. But her teacher clearly has problems. She kidnapped a kid before from foster care but didn't go to jail then either. No charges were brought against her. She only seems to pick girls who are the same as her daughter would be. At the end of the episode the teacher files to adopt Wendy. We don't know what happens. But for the girl's sake I hope she didn't end up with Wendy. How long until she started just calling Wendy, Crystal? Wanting her to be like Crystal. What if Wendy does something she doesn't like or isn't like how she thinks Crystal would be? What would the teacher do? Would Wendy just go along with it because she doesn't want to go back to foster care? She's going to end up messed up her care. Too bad there's not a better option for her.

one eerie possibly with how awful the foster care and people were, wendy decides she would rather be crystal then be her old self with all the horrors she endured and wants to forget about her past

 

i know a few cases where something like that has happened irl, people who went through a trauma start emulating someone else so they can try to be someone other then their old self

 

one very disturbing thing from reddit

I worked in the dental clinic of a psychiatric hospital for a bit and I'll never forget a patient named Terry. Terry loved to wear little girls clothing and would have pictures of little girls that he had cut out of magazines on a string around his neck. When I first encountered him I automatically made the assumption that he was some sort of paedophile. I later learned from the dentist I had worked with that Terry had witnessed his little sister being brutally raped and murdered by their step father when they were children. He had in a way started to assume the identity of his little sister and he considered the girls in the pictures he cut out his friends. I felt horrible for jumping to conclusions, especially after I got to know him more and saw what a gentle, kind soul he was.

[ML89]

10 hours ago, stonehaven said:

Saw that episode last night and found it said but the performances of Camryn Manheim and Christine Baranski were fantastic.

Still, the whole thing about making the girl lie down in the back seat made me realize the teacher knew what she was doing was wrong. 

I thought her friend, who was worried about her and reported it and helped Mike and Lennie, was amazing. Camryn Manheim is just amazing too, as the foster mom who doesn't give a damn.

[Xeliou66]

I thought of another episode that could’ve had a great follow up - Kids from season 4, where it’s implied the ex cop has a witness killed that was going to testify against his son in court - they couldn’t prove it at the time but I would’ve liked a follow up where the case involving the killing of the witness was reopened and the cop was brought to justice. Lennie reminded him at the end that there’s no statute of limitations on murder, and it would’ve made for a really good follow up I think to bring that case back.

I thought the son was more sympathetic than the ex cop dad, as the son didn’t intentionally shoot the other kid he was aiming at a guy who had been threatening him. He seemed horrified when Stone confronted the dad outside the courthouse about getting the witness shot. Like I say, it would’ve been a really good episode to follow up on, too bad they never did.

[shapeshifter]

Last night SVU’s episode “Post-Graduate Psychopath” followed up on a case from an episode that aired 7 years ago, “Born Psychopath,” including the same young actor. Basically, nothing had changed. Just the same old mayhem. But I thought I’d mention it here because it fit with the recent discussion of following up on cases, especially with children. 

[Xeliou66]

I watched The Fire This Time today, good episode, but Nora really drove me nuts in this one, she was so overly sympathetic to the defendants who set the fire. She was so goddamn soft for a DA, her character looked so weak. Nora could’ve been an interesting character but all too often she just lacked authority and came across as extraordinarily soft. The way she kept on making excuses for these perps who burned down a building and killed a woman inside was pathetic IMO. I was glad McCoy stood his ground and put them away for murder, while Nora just stood on the sidelines whining.

Aside from Nora, the episode was really good, the investigation into the crime was very good and the case was compelling. But Nora’s whining dragged the show down, between Nora and Serena, well those characters were very soft to be prosecutors and having them on together in season 12 often made the legal side more dull.

[Spartan Girl]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I watched The Fire This Time today, good episode, but Nora really drove me nuts in this one, she was so overly sympathetic to the defendants who set the fire. She was so goddamn soft for a DA, her character looked so weak. Nora could’ve been an interesting character but all too often she just lacked authority and came across as extraordinarily soft. The way she kept on making excuses for these perps who burned down a building and killed a woman inside was pathetic IMO. I was glad McCoy stood his ground and put them away for murder, while Nora just stood on the sidelines whining.

Tell me about it. And it only got worse in other Nora episodes.

Their whole defense of “it was for a good cause” was bullshit. Aside from that dumb whiny girl, none of those assholes showed any remorse for what they did. They were fine with being murderers as long as it was for their beliefs?! Ugh. They deserved no pity but Nora gave away pity like spare change.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Tell me about it. And it only got worse in other Nora episodes.

Their whole defense of “it was for a good cause” was bullshit. Aside from that dumb whiny girl, none of those assholes showed any remorse for what they did. They were fine with being murderers as long as it was for their beliefs?! Ugh. They deserved no pity but Nora gave away pity like spare change.

Yeah the defendants didn’t seem to care much that an innocent woman burned to death in the fire. While they didn’t intend to kill anyone, they still did kill someone while committing arson, and they deserved to go to prison for murder. Nora whined about it the whole episode though. It wasn’t the only time Nora whined about a murderer going to prison, she seemed to sympathize with the killer in Undercovered, and she seemed to think there was credibility to the theory that racism was a mental disorder in Prejudice. Besides, Nora just lacked authority.

Nora is one of my least favorite L&O characters, she was just such a poor choice to replace the great Schiff. I know some people can’t stand Arthur, but I like him and thought he brought authority and personality back to the DA position. 

[Dirtybubble]

I'm new to this thread and it's probably been said 1,000 times so I'll say it for the 1,001 time I JUST LOVED Lennie Briscoe!  If I had to pick a favorite detective out of all the detective, crime shows on t.v. AND possibly movies it would be him!  Just the most imperfect perfect guy.  My 2nd favorite would be Humphrey Bogart's Sam Spade but that's a different discussion =)

 

I bow to you Det. Briscoe!

[cambridgeguy]

Briscoe was awesome except when he had to chase a suspect down.  Our boy definitely didn't jog in his spare time.