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John Diggle: Brother In Arms

Lisin

By Lisin
in Characters of Arrow

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Morrigan2575
Morrigan2575

He removed himself from the field in 301; then in 302 he's back on the team and in 303 he's in the Field.  Diggle was in the field several times between 302-310, including 303, 305, 308 and 310 but wa

tv echo
tv echo

Here is my Diggle rant - Even though Diggle had a few good scenes in Episodes 310 through 312, for the most part he has been shamefully treated by the EPs.  We previously discussed the incongruity of

quarks
quarks

Felicity isn't taking screentime or focus away from Diggle. She's taking screentime and focus away from Laurel.  This is because Felicity isn't taking over Diggle's role as mentor/fighting partner. Sh

Guest

Guest

That's fantastic! I love Diggle and DR really does have a good understanding of his character, which can't be said about all actors on the show! 

 

I didn't really want any Daddy Diggle tbh but I'm interested to see how they make it work. It'll be a challenge and I want to see those parallels with Oliver and can he have it all? 

KenyaJ

KenyaJ

stilettoroyalty is one of my favorite Arrow/Olicity/Team Arrow bloggers on Tumblr. I love that she organized the Diggle trend, and I'm so glad he not only noticed it, but tweeted about it.

 

I was looking through the show's official Instagram this morning, and I love that the very first picture posted was a picture of Diggle, calling him the "backbone" of Team Arrow. That's such a perfect description. He told Felicity that she's irreplaceable, but he's indispensable. I can't imagine Team Arrow without him, which is why I'm really looking forward to watching him figure out how to balance his Team Arrow duties with his family duties this season.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

I'd like to see an ep where everyone struggles without Diggle...we really haven't seen that yet.

That would be a good episode, although it would require limited DR/Diggle screen time.  Another cool episode would be one along the lines of The Zeppo or Weekend at Bobby's...where the show focuses on Starling/Arrow related stuff around Diggle while Oliver becomes the person in the background.

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CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)

Trends are great, but there need to be an honest discussion about why Diggle is/was sidelined in the first place. Maybe they are other factors too, but the way I see it, his role/screentime has lessened greatly sometime after Felicity joined. Things are not at all equal in the trio, his marginalisation can only get worse with more joining the team. Otherwise it certainly not the start of it imo. 

Edited by Conell
NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

Trends are great, but there need to be an honest discussion about why Diggle is/was sidelined in the first place. Maybe they are other factors too, but the way I see it, his role/screentime has lessened greatly sometime after Felicity joined. Things are not at all equal in the trio, his marginalisation can only get worse with more joining the team. Otherwise it certainly not the start of it imo.

I can't agree that Diggle's screentime was reduced upon Felicity's introduction. He still had far more screentime than she did in S1 (even after she joined the team full-time) and roughly equal screentime as Felicity in the first half of S2. Where the wheels came off was when Sara showed up and the focus went from Team Arrow fighting crime to the Lance family drama. I won't disagree that Diggle is underused though. One thing that he can at least boast over Felicity is a ton of more backstory (e.g. Deadshot, sister-in-law arc, Lyla, etc.).

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doesntworkonwood

doesntworkonwood

I agree that it's important that Diggle gets a lot more focus this season,

beyond just the baby storyline.

I am really excited to see where they go, and any decisions that greatly or negatively impact his role on the team will affect my decision to continue watching or not.

 

However, I disagree that Diggle's role was reduced due to the addition of Felicity. I think that because a lot of fan focus is on Felicity, Diggle does get sidelined in fan discussion, but I don't think that this is a reflection of what has actually happened on the show (and hopefully not of which direction it's going in.) As NumberCruncher said, Diggle certainly has a lot of backstory which has yet to be fully explored, there are also many different directions to take his character and we generally know a lot more about his motivations than we do about Felicity's.

 

As a side note, I think that the trends are incredibly important. From what I've seen on tumblr, twitter trends seem to be a primary method of communication with the writes (within the Arrow fandom), so running such a successful twitter trend campaign means that the writers know that Diggle has a strong (and vocal) fanbase who will be watching, and keeping a keen eye on the importance of Diggle's role on the team (and whether or not this diminishes.)

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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

Screentime maybe..but not focus really..and lack of time with Oliver unlike s1. 

 

Lack of time with Oliver as compared to Felicity, yes, but focus?  Absolutely not.  There was a lot of focus on the Diggle/Deadshot/Lyla relationship--there were two episodes ("Keep Your Enemies Closer" and "Suicide Squad") that were almost entirely centered around them.

catrox14

catrox14

I really don't understand the idea that Felicity is why Diggle had less screen time. Ramsey was working on  two shows flying literally coast to coast to work. Maybe he requested a little less time per episode to get a couple that were Diggle centric.  IMO he's maintained he connections with Oliver and Felicity. Oliver would be fucking dead if Diggle hadn't followed him when Isabel had him Dead to Rights.

statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

David Ramsey is the reason I watched Blue Bloods, and only episodes he was in.  (Tom Selleck stated very publicly that he didn't want Blue Bloods to be shot in Canada.)

 

I think there are a couple of reasons why it seemed like Diggle went to the background for Felicity. For one thing, Felicity brings an obvious humor to the show while Diggle's humor is subtle and a lot of times non-verbal, so when Felicity was babbling, it was more apparent.  The other thing is that she moved up to be teased as Oliver's love interest, and that's something Diggle couldn't be.

 

In terms of vigilante scenes, I don't think that he was put into the background because of Felicity so much as the show focused on Laurel, Sara and Slade for much of season 2, leaving little time for either Diggle or Felicity in 2b.

 

I think the producers were aware that Diggle was getting less time, and tried to make up for it by two Diggle-centric episodes, both of them dealing with flashbacks for him as well as the Deadshot arc that carried over a number of episodes..

Edited by statsgirl
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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

I'm an Olicity person, but I'd classify myself as a Team Arrow person (Original Recipe: O/D/F) first and foremost, and if pressed, I'd name Diggle as my favorite character (with Oliver and then Felicity immediately behind, by like tenths of a second). So I wasn't thrilled with how little Diggle we got this season, but I don't actually blame any individual character. Not the Lances, not Roy, not Felicity. It was just second-season-itis, in my opinion.

 

Oliver and Diggle had the best relationship development in Season 1, because of the actors' chemistry and because Dig was the only person Oliver could talk to honestly, and was really the audience surrogate for a time. So we had what felt like more meaningful time with him. In Season 2, the writers had to start putting more pieces to work so that the narrative could fire effectively on multiple fronts. And Oliver's relationships with every other character developed further/differently in Season 2, so we spent more time in all of those areas (some more successfully and efficiently than others).

 

And yeah, some of the other characters had meatier storylines, or more overall attention paid to their development, but as I said here sometime this spring--it became apparent that Season 2 was just not going to be a big one for Diggle, and I was OK with that. If I look back on Season 3 and say the same thing, however, I will not be pleased. It's time to do more with him. DR and his chemistry with the other actors is a huge asset that they need to use to greater advantage this year, and I'm optimistic that they will.

Edited by Carrie Ann
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KenyaJ

KenyaJ

I think there are a couple of reasons why it seemed like Diggle went to the background for Felicity. For one thing, Felicity brings an obvious humor to the show while Diggle's humor is subtle and a lot of times non-verbal, so when Felicity was babbling, it was more apparent.  The other thing is that she moved up to be teased as Oliver's love interest, and that's something Diggle couldn't be.

 

Well, he could've been, LOL. And now I'm going to let my mind run wild with that fantasy...

CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)
I really don't understand the idea that Felicity is why Diggle had less screen time. Ramsey was working on  two shows flying literally coast to coast to work. Maybe he requested a little less time per episode to get a couple that were Diggle centric.  IMO he's maintained he connections with Oliver and Felicity. Oliver would be fucking dead if Diggle hadn't followed him when Isabel had him Dead to Rights.

 

Fair enough, like I said there could be other factors at play here, I dont know about. I have heard that Felicity has the most lines after Oliver, sure she slightly talks more than the average person, but I doubt she can get to that stage without a lot of scenes. And when i see Diggle in the background with no lines, or not even in many scenes, Im wondering whats going on. Looking at his IMDB credits DR has only 15 episodes of Blue Blood since 2011, and  in Arrow season 1 he did have a lot of screentime, so BB didnt seem to have much of an effect back then I guess.

 

There was a lot of focus on the Diggle/Deadshot/Lyla relationship--there were two episodes ("Keep Your Enemies Closer" and "Suicide Squad") that were almost entirely centered around them.

 

Two episodes for those relationships, is not a whole lot of focus to me lol, I would expect better for a main series regular. I can excuse Deadshot, since he is a villain and we saw a bit in season1 but

Lyla is his girlfriend and is having a baby with Diggle,  I feel like I hardly know her. it does help she is a member of ARGUS too.

Well thats me, others may feel that was adequate. 

 

 

And yeah, some of the other characters had meatier storylines, or more overall attention paid to their development, but as I said here sometime this spring--it became apparent that Season 2 was just not going to be a big one for Diggle, and I was OK with that. If I look back on Season 3 and say the same thing, however, I will not be pleased.

 

Yeah,  lets see how it goes this time in season 3.

He has got a baby now so do know how that will affect his role in the team and show

. 

Edited by Conell
NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

Fair enough, like I said there could be other factors at play here, I dont know about. I have heard that Felicity has the most lines after Oliver, sure she slightly talks more than the average person, but I doubt she can get to that stage without a lot of scenes. And when i see Diggle in the background with no lines, or not even in many scenes, Im wondering whats going on. Looking at his IMDB credits DR has only 15 episodes of Blue Blood since 2011, and  in Arrow season 1 he did have a lot of screentime, so BB didnt seem to have much of an effect back then I guess.

I think you answered your own question. It's not a matter of Diggle not having screentime, but lines in those scenes and a large part of that is the character himself--Diggle is generally known as a "man of few words" while Felicity is a babbler. So yes, It may appear Felicity has more scenes because she has more lines, even though Diggle is standing right there with her. I've said this before but one of the things I really love about DR is that a huge part of his acting is non-verbal. I guess that's why I don't fret about the amount of time he speaks--I KNOW he's in a scene because I can't help but watch him even when he's not saying a word.

 

Two episodes for those relationships, is not a whole lot of focus to me lol, I would expect better for a main series regular. I can excuse Deadshot, since he is a villain and we saw a bit in season1 but

Lyla is his girlfriend and is having a baby with Diggle,  I feel like I hardly know her. it does help she is a member of ARGUS too.

Well thats me, others may feel that was adequate. 

It is a lot in comparison to other supporting actors and especially Felicity (who hasn't had any character-centric episodes). I'm not saying Diggle hasn't been underused--I'll never turn down more Diggle--just that he's hardly been pushed to the background in favor of Felicity.

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Chaser

Chaser

I'm just saying they spent a lot of time on Sara's story in S2. They mentioned her in S1, but she had a huge introduction in S2. It contributed to less screen time for Diggle. The story they were telling contributed to less time for Diggle. They also added Roy. They had a lot of moving parts in S2.

 

It doesn't matter if the scenes were flashbacks or not. It's all screentime.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Which admittedly didn't help..but her time in the present wasn't that much..she was more involved in flashbacks.

Roy also played a part..

 

But a lot of her time in the present was spent in the foundry, which, like I said, is where most of Diggle's scenes are, and yet somehow the reasoning for Diggle's reduced screen time keeps coming back to Felicity.

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Ceylon5

Ceylon5

Unless someone is willing to sit down and time exactly how much screen-time Diggle had in S1 and how much he had in S2, I don't think there's even any good reason to believe that there was any significant difference from one season to the next.  I'm willing to bet that if someone actually had the time and inclination to do this, they'd find that he spent about the same amount of time on screen and had a similar number of lines in each season.  There were times in both seasons where his character was not prominent and times when he was.  And I think Diggle has been a pretty well-taken care of character overall - he's been given Diggle-centric episodes, love interests, flash-backs, family, an apartment, etc., etc.

 

I think it's just the residual trauma of the second half of S2, where Team Arrow was back-burnered to a degree, that has created this perception that his screen-time was less overall.  Until someone gives me cold, hard numbers, though, I'm not going to be convinced that something as vague as biased viewer perception is correct.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

(edited)

What I get from this discussion is that the folks saying Felicity stole screen from Diggle are really complaining that Felicity stole one-on-one time with Oliver from Diggle? 'Cause yeah, that probably happened. I'm thinking if someone counts them, Diggle most likely had less scenes with Oliver alone in S2 than he had in S1. OTOH, he probably had more scenes with other characters, completely independent from Oliver, in S2 than he had in S1. Lyla scenes, Deadshot scenes, Felicity scenes, the whole episode he spent with Thea scenes, etc.

 

I guess if your main reason to watch is the Oliver/Diggle buddy buddy hour, that definitely took a hit in S2 with the addition of Sara, and the expansion of Felicity's role, and the fact that well, Diggle and Oliver sorted all the kinks in their friendship in S1, and there wasn't any conflict for them to solve between themselves in S2. Maybe there should had been, but the story didn't go there.

We know it's gonna happen in S3.

But speaking for myself, when Oliver was busy with the dancing chairs of Lance Sisters, I was super DUPER glad we got a bunch of Dig & Felicity BFF scenes. They presented such a united front in season 2B that for me, it mirrored the bond Oliver and Diggle created between themselves in S1.

Edited by dancingnancy
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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

I'm saying it's both but definitely the latter. Oliver and Diggle should be THE pairing of the show (and in many ways that's how it was in s1)

Sorry if this comes out to be a little rude (totally don't mean it that way) but it's not your decision on who the main pairing of the show should be, nor is it any of the audiences. Saying stuff like who should be what and what should happen on the show just screams entitlement. The show is MORE than just Oliver/Diggle. The show has grown in terms of characters and relationships so obviously Oliver/Diggle won't have as much screentime as they had before. Season 1 was John Diggle's year with Oliver. Season 2 was Felicity's. So what? They've had equal amounts of screentime with Oliver which is why I don't see the issue considering they're a team. 

 

Hopefully John will have an expanded role in season 3 and we get to see Oliver interact with him more, but other than that, it's a bit childish to say that John should have more scenes with Oliver than Felicity or vice versa.

Edited by wonderwall
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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I'm saying it's both but definitely the latter. Oliver and Diggle should be THE pairing of the show (and in many ways that's how it was in s1)

 

Yeah, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the day EBR walked into the Arrow set, that plan -- if that was the initial plan, even, I'm not completely sure it ever was -- changed dramatically and forever.

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wingster55

wingster55

Sorry if this comes out to be a little rude (totally don't mean it that way) but it's not your decision on who the main pairing of the show should be,

 

Yes it is.

Yeah, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the day EBR walked into the Arrow set, that plan -- if that was the initial plan, even, I'm not completely sure it ever was

 

After rewatching s1 this hiatus...the Oliver/Diggle relationship was the most explored, the most significant relationship of that season. Oliver and Diggle being on opposite sides of an issue was intended to be more shocking than Oliver vs Tommy etc.

 

Well, everything about the Felicity conversation over in the Team thread just became so unbelievably clear.

 

Ok?

wonderwall

wonderwall

Yes it is.

Lol okay then, I meant that in the end, it's the EPs decision on who to focus on and which relationship to focus on. But since you've made it clear that this is your decision, you're clearly an EP? 

 

Like I said, saying stuff like who should be what and what should happen on the show is just entitlement. 

 

But if you're so relentlessly steadfast in your decision on what should happen on the show to the point of undermining Felicity's role on the team, I fear you're just going to end up being disappointed in the show because obviously Felicity and Oliver will be one of the focal points of the season. 

 

This conversation just makes me imagine Oliver in the middle being pulled by Felicity and Diggle each screaming "mine!". Childish indeed. Diggle doesn't NEED bonding time with Oliver. He's an independent man who realizes Oliver has a life of his own and so does John Diggle. This is the case in real life too. You don't only hang out with your best friend. 

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