John Diggle: Brother In Arms

[DrSpaceman10]

Twitter managed to Worldwide Trend "We Love John Diggle"! I'm really excited for (hopefully) a lot of Diggle stuff this year, David Ramsey is an awesome actor and he really seems to understand his character.

[Guest]

That's fantastic! I love Diggle and DR really does have a good understanding of his character, which can't be said about all actors on the show! 

 

I didn't really want any Daddy Diggle tbh but I'm interested to see how they make it work. It'll be a challenge and I want to see those parallels with Oliver and can he have it all? 

[Velocity23]

I saw that and i love David saying thanks for the support

https://twitter.com/david_ramsey/status/517082233090613249

[catrox14]

I got scared that something had been leaked about John's imminent demise..whew. 

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, it was organized by an Olicity fan.

[Sunshine]

I think she's a bigger Original Team Arrow (O/F/D) fan.  She's definitely a huge John Diggle/David Ramsey fan. 

[KenyaJ]

stilettoroyalty is one of my favorite Arrow/Olicity/Team Arrow bloggers on Tumblr. I love that she organized the Diggle trend, and I'm so glad he not only noticed it, but tweeted about it.

 

I was looking through the show's official Instagram this morning, and I love that the very first picture posted was a picture of Diggle, calling him the "backbone" of Team Arrow. That's such a perfect description. He told Felicity that she's irreplaceable, but he's indispensable. I can't imagine Team Arrow without him, which is why I'm really looking forward to watching him figure out how to balance his Team Arrow duties with his family duties this season.

[wingster55]

I'd like to see an ep where everyone struggles without Diggle...we really haven't seen that yet.

[TanyaKay]

^^^

yups, that would be a great story line to explore.

[wonderwall]

I think this could go well with Oliver kicking Diggle out of the cave because he's now a father. 

[wingster55]

It could but there hasn't been any indication of it from non-spoiler sources. 

[Morrigan2575]

I'd like to see an ep where everyone struggles without Diggle...we really haven't seen that yet.

That would be a good episode, although it would require limited DR/Diggle screen time.  Another cool episode would be one along the lines of The Zeppo or Weekend at Bobby's...where the show focuses on Starling/Arrow related stuff around Diggle while Oliver becomes the person in the background.

[JayKay]

A Zeppo episode where we get to learn all kinds of little things about Diggle would be so much fun.

[wingster55]

That would be a good episode, although it would require limited DR/Diggle screen time.

 

At least this time it's to highlight him.

A Zeppo like ep? I hated that episode on Buffy.

[DrSpaceman10]

I loved that episode of Buffy, it's one of my favorites. Although, Diggle is way more competent than Xander ;)

Edited October 1, 2014 by drspaceman10

[wingster55]

The problem was that the concept was flawed at that point. Xander was pretty competent against vamps then...and the other characters needed him "on the field"

[CabotCove]

Trends are great, but there need to be an honest discussion about why Diggle is/was sidelined in the first place. Maybe they are other factors too, but the way I see it, his role/screentime has lessened greatly sometime after Felicity joined. Things are not at all equal in the trio, his marginalisation can only get worse with more joining the team. Otherwise it certainly not the start of it imo. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Conell

[NumberCruncher]

Trends are great, but there need to be an honest discussion about why Diggle is/was sidelined in the first place. Maybe they are other factors too, but the way I see it, his role/screentime has lessened greatly sometime after Felicity joined. Things are not at all equal in the trio, his marginalisation can only get worse with more joining the team. Otherwise it certainly not the start of it imo.

I can't agree that Diggle's screentime was reduced upon Felicity's introduction. He still had far more screentime than she did in S1 (even after she joined the team full-time) and roughly equal screentime as Felicity in the first half of S2. Where the wheels came off was when Sara showed up and the focus went from Team Arrow fighting crime to the Lance family drama. I won't disagree that Diggle is underused though. One thing that he can at least boast over Felicity is a ton of more backstory (e.g. Deadshot, sister-in-law arc, Lyla, etc.).

[doesntworkonwood]

I agree that it's important that Diggle gets a lot more focus this season,

beyond just the baby storyline.

I am really excited to see where they go, and any decisions that greatly or negatively impact his role on the team will affect my decision to continue watching or not.

 

However, I disagree that Diggle's role was reduced due to the addition of Felicity. I think that because a lot of fan focus is on Felicity, Diggle does get sidelined in fan discussion, but I don't think that this is a reflection of what has actually happened on the show (and hopefully not of which direction it's going in.) As NumberCruncher said, Diggle certainly has a lot of backstory which has yet to be fully explored, there are also many different directions to take his character and we generally know a lot more about his motivations than we do about Felicity's.

 

As a side note, I think that the trends are incredibly important. From what I've seen on tumblr, twitter trends seem to be a primary method of communication with the writes (within the Arrow fandom), so running such a successful twitter trend campaign means that the writers know that Diggle has a strong (and vocal) fanbase who will be watching, and keeping a keen eye on the importance of Diggle's role on the team (and whether or not this diminishes.)

[MostlyC]

I wonder if Dig goes on Paternity leave, as it were.  He might want to spend time with the baby after s/he is born.  Or maybe he works part time while he adjusts to fatherhood.  Just a theory.

[apinknightmare]

Plus, with regards to screen time, David Ramsey is (was?) also on Blue Bloods, so I wonder if his shooting schedule for that show affected his availability for Arrow and contributed to some of Diggle's absence last season?

[wingster55]

roughly equal screentime as Felicity in the first half of S2.

 

Screentime maybe..but not focus really..and lack of time with Oliver unlike s1. 

[NumberCruncher]

Screentime maybe..but not focus really..and lack of time with Oliver unlike s1. 

 

Lack of time with Oliver as compared to Felicity, yes, but focus?  Absolutely not.  There was a lot of focus on the Diggle/Deadshot/Lyla relationship--there were two episodes ("Keep Your Enemies Closer" and "Suicide Squad") that were almost entirely centered around them.

[wingster55]

Two out of 23. 

[NumberCruncher]

Two out of 23. 

 

And how many episodes were Felicity-centric? ;)

[Password]

None. I certainly don't count ToD.

[catrox14]

I really don't understand the idea that Felicity is why Diggle had less screen time. Ramsey was working on  two shows flying literally coast to coast to work. Maybe he requested a little less time per episode to get a couple that were Diggle centric.  IMO he's maintained he connections with Oliver and Felicity. Oliver would be fucking dead if Diggle hadn't followed him when Isabel had him Dead to Rights.

[Password]

Wow I didn't know David Ramsey was doing another show too. Folks are so busy in the entertainment business.

[statsgirl]

David Ramsey is the reason I watched Blue Bloods, and only episodes he was in.  (Tom Selleck stated very publicly that he didn't want Blue Bloods to be shot in Canada.)

 

I think there are a couple of reasons why it seemed like Diggle went to the background for Felicity. For one thing, Felicity brings an obvious humor to the show while Diggle's humor is subtle and a lot of times non-verbal, so when Felicity was babbling, it was more apparent.  The other thing is that she moved up to be teased as Oliver's love interest, and that's something Diggle couldn't be.

 

In terms of vigilante scenes, I don't think that he was put into the background because of Felicity so much as the show focused on Laurel, Sara and Slade for much of season 2, leaving little time for either Diggle or Felicity in 2b.

 

I think the producers were aware that Diggle was getting less time, and tried to make up for it by two Diggle-centric episodes, both of them dealing with flashbacks for him as well as the Deadshot arc that carried over a number of episodes..

Edited October 6, 2014 by statsgirl

[Carrie Ann]

I'm an Olicity person, but I'd classify myself as a Team Arrow person (Original Recipe: O/D/F) first and foremost, and if pressed, I'd name Diggle as my favorite character (with Oliver and then Felicity immediately behind, by like tenths of a second). So I wasn't thrilled with how little Diggle we got this season, but I don't actually blame any individual character. Not the Lances, not Roy, not Felicity. It was just second-season-itis, in my opinion.

 

Oliver and Diggle had the best relationship development in Season 1, because of the actors' chemistry and because Dig was the only person Oliver could talk to honestly, and was really the audience surrogate for a time. So we had what felt like more meaningful time with him. In Season 2, the writers had to start putting more pieces to work so that the narrative could fire effectively on multiple fronts. And Oliver's relationships with every other character developed further/differently in Season 2, so we spent more time in all of those areas (some more successfully and efficiently than others).

 

And yeah, some of the other characters had meatier storylines, or more overall attention paid to their development, but as I said here sometime this spring--it became apparent that Season 2 was just not going to be a big one for Diggle, and I was OK with that. If I look back on Season 3 and say the same thing, however, I will not be pleased. It's time to do more with him. DR and his chemistry with the other actors is a huge asset that they need to use to greater advantage this year, and I'm optimistic that they will.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[KenyaJ]

I think there are a couple of reasons why it seemed like Diggle went to the background for Felicity. For one thing, Felicity brings an obvious humor to the show while Diggle's humor is subtle and a lot of times non-verbal, so when Felicity was babbling, it was more apparent.  The other thing is that she moved up to be teased as Oliver's love interest, and that's something Diggle couldn't be.

 

Well, he could've been, LOL. And now I'm going to let my mind run wild with that fantasy...

[CabotCove]

I really don't understand the idea that Felicity is why Diggle had less screen time. Ramsey was working on  two shows flying literally coast to coast to work. Maybe he requested a little less time per episode to get a couple that were Diggle centric.  IMO he's maintained he connections with Oliver and Felicity. Oliver would be fucking dead if Diggle hadn't followed him when Isabel had him Dead to Rights.

 

Fair enough, like I said there could be other factors at play here, I dont know about. I have heard that Felicity has the most lines after Oliver, sure she slightly talks more than the average person, but I doubt she can get to that stage without a lot of scenes. And when i see Diggle in the background with no lines, or not even in many scenes, Im wondering whats going on. Looking at his IMDB credits DR has only 15 episodes of Blue Blood since 2011, and  in Arrow season 1 he did have a lot of screentime, so BB didnt seem to have much of an effect back then I guess.

 

There was a lot of focus on the Diggle/Deadshot/Lyla relationship--there were two episodes ("Keep Your Enemies Closer" and "Suicide Squad") that were almost entirely centered around them.

 

Two episodes for those relationships, is not a whole lot of focus to me lol, I would expect better for a main series regular. I can excuse Deadshot, since he is a villain and we saw a bit in season1 but

Lyla is his girlfriend and is having a baby with Diggle,  I feel like I hardly know her. it does help she is a member of ARGUS too.

Well thats me, others may feel that was adequate. 

 

 

And yeah, some of the other characters had meatier storylines, or more overall attention paid to their development, but as I said here sometime this spring--it became apparent that Season 2 was just not going to be a big one for Diggle, and I was OK with that. If I look back on Season 3 and say the same thing, however, I will not be pleased.

 

Yeah,  lets see how it goes this time in season 3.

He has got a baby now so do know how that will affect his role in the team and show

. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Conell

[NumberCruncher]

Fair enough, like I said there could be other factors at play here, I dont know about. I have heard that Felicity has the most lines after Oliver, sure she slightly talks more than the average person, but I doubt she can get to that stage without a lot of scenes. And when i see Diggle in the background with no lines, or not even in many scenes, Im wondering whats going on. Looking at his IMDB credits DR has only 15 episodes of Blue Blood since 2011, and  in Arrow season 1 he did have a lot of screentime, so BB didnt seem to have much of an effect back then I guess.

I think you answered your own question. It's not a matter of Diggle not having screentime, but lines in those scenes and a large part of that is the character himself--Diggle is generally known as a "man of few words" while Felicity is a babbler. So yes, It may appear Felicity has more scenes because she has more lines, even though Diggle is standing right there with her. I've said this before but one of the things I really love about DR is that a huge part of his acting is non-verbal. I guess that's why I don't fret about the amount of time he speaks--I KNOW he's in a scene because I can't help but watch him even when he's not saying a word.

 

Two episodes for those relationships, is not a whole lot of focus to me lol, I would expect better for a main series regular. I can excuse Deadshot, since he is a villain and we saw a bit in season1 but

Lyla is his girlfriend and is having a baby with Diggle,  I feel like I hardly know her. it does help she is a member of ARGUS too.

Well thats me, others may feel that was adequate. 

It is a lot in comparison to other supporting actors and especially Felicity (who hasn't had any character-centric episodes). I'm not saying Diggle hasn't been underused--I'll never turn down more Diggle--just that he's hardly been pushed to the background in favor of Felicity.

[wingster55]

The only variable that's changed really from s1 to s2 is Felicity...so it isn't really unwarranted.

[Chaser]

Sara was also introduced in S2.

[wingster55]

Her story was tied into Oliver and the Lance family..not a separate entity. So that was also the same.

[apinknightmare]

Her story was tied into Oliver and the Lance family..not a separate entity. So that was also the same.

 

Sara, who also spent a lot of time at the foundry. Which is primarily where Diggle's scenes are.

[wingster55]

Which admittedly didn't help..but her time in the present wasn't that much..she was more involved in flashbacks.

Roy also played a part..

[Chaser]

I'm just saying they spent a lot of time on Sara's story in S2. They mentioned her in S1, but she had a huge introduction in S2. It contributed to less screen time for Diggle. The story they were telling contributed to less time for Diggle. They also added Roy. They had a lot of moving parts in S2.

 

It doesn't matter if the scenes were flashbacks or not. It's all screentime.

[apinknightmare]

Which admittedly didn't help..but her time in the present wasn't that much..she was more involved in flashbacks.

Roy also played a part..

 

But a lot of her time in the present was spent in the foundry, which, like I said, is where most of Diggle's scenes are, and yet somehow the reasoning for Diggle's reduced screen time keeps coming back to Felicity.

[wingster55]

Possibly because Sara wasn't in the foundry in the first half (nor was Roy) and Diggle was sidelined quite a bit.

[Ceylon5]

Unless someone is willing to sit down and time exactly how much screen-time Diggle had in S1 and how much he had in S2, I don't think there's even any good reason to believe that there was any significant difference from one season to the next.  I'm willing to bet that if someone actually had the time and inclination to do this, they'd find that he spent about the same amount of time on screen and had a similar number of lines in each season.  There were times in both seasons where his character was not prominent and times when he was.  And I think Diggle has been a pretty well-taken care of character overall - he's been given Diggle-centric episodes, love interests, flash-backs, family, an apartment, etc., etc.

 

I think it's just the residual trauma of the second half of S2, where Team Arrow was back-burnered to a degree, that has created this perception that his screen-time was less overall.  Until someone gives me cold, hard numbers, though, I'm not going to be convinced that something as vague as biased viewer perception is correct.

[dtissagirl]

What I get from this discussion is that the folks saying Felicity stole screen from Diggle are really complaining that Felicity stole one-on-one time with Oliver from Diggle? 'Cause yeah, that probably happened. I'm thinking if someone counts them, Diggle most likely had less scenes with Oliver alone in S2 than he had in S1. OTOH, he probably had more scenes with other characters, completely independent from Oliver, in S2 than he had in S1. Lyla scenes, Deadshot scenes, Felicity scenes, the whole episode he spent with Thea scenes, etc.

 

I guess if your main reason to watch is the Oliver/Diggle buddy buddy hour, that definitely took a hit in S2 with the addition of Sara, and the expansion of Felicity's role, and the fact that well, Diggle and Oliver sorted all the kinks in their friendship in S1, and there wasn't any conflict for them to solve between themselves in S2. Maybe there should had been, but the story didn't go there.

We know it's gonna happen in S3.

But speaking for myself, when Oliver was busy with the dancing chairs of Lance Sisters, I was super DUPER glad we got a bunch of Dig & Felicity BFF scenes. They presented such a united front in season 2B that for me, it mirrored the bond Oliver and Diggle created between themselves in S1.

Edited October 7, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wingster55]

What I get from this discussion is that the folks saying Felicity stole screen from Diggle are really complaining that Felicity stole one-on-one time with Oliver from Diggle?

 

I'm saying it's both but definitely the latter. Oliver and Diggle should be THE pairing of the show (and in many ways that's how it was in s1)

[wonderwall]

I'm saying it's both but definitely the latter. Oliver and Diggle should be THE pairing of the show (and in many ways that's how it was in s1)

Sorry if this comes out to be a little rude (totally don't mean it that way) but it's not your decision on who the main pairing of the show should be, nor is it any of the audiences. Saying stuff like who should be what and what should happen on the show just screams entitlement. The show is MORE than just Oliver/Diggle. The show has grown in terms of characters and relationships so obviously Oliver/Diggle won't have as much screentime as they had before. Season 1 was John Diggle's year with Oliver. Season 2 was Felicity's. So what? They've had equal amounts of screentime with Oliver which is why I don't see the issue considering they're a team. 

 

Hopefully John will have an expanded role in season 3 and we get to see Oliver interact with him more, but other than that, it's a bit childish to say that John should have more scenes with Oliver than Felicity or vice versa.

Edited October 7, 2014 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

I'm saying it's both but definitely the latter. Oliver and Diggle should be THE pairing of the show (and in many ways that's how it was in s1)

 

Yeah, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the day EBR walked into the Arrow set, that plan -- if that was the initial plan, even, I'm not completely sure it ever was -- changed dramatically and forever.

[apinknightmare]

I'm saying it's both but definitely the latter. Oliver and Diggle should be THE pairing of the show (and in many ways that's how it was in s1)

 

Well, everything about the Felicity conversation over in the Team thread just became so unbelievably clear.

[wingster55]

Sorry if this comes out to be a little rude (totally don't mean it that way) but it's not your decision on who the main pairing of the show should be,

 

Yes it is.

Yeah, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the day EBR walked into the Arrow set, that plan -- if that was the initial plan, even, I'm not completely sure it ever was

 

After rewatching s1 this hiatus...the Oliver/Diggle relationship was the most explored, the most significant relationship of that season. Oliver and Diggle being on opposite sides of an issue was intended to be more shocking than Oliver vs Tommy etc.

 

Well, everything about the Felicity conversation over in the Team thread just became so unbelievably clear.

 

Ok?

[apinknightmare]

Ok?

 

The argument over whether/when Felicity was a member of the team. I didn't really get why it mattered, but if you think Oliver and Diggle should be THE guys, it makes sense.

[wonderwall]

Yes it is.

Lol okay then, I meant that in the end, it's the EPs decision on who to focus on and which relationship to focus on. But since you've made it clear that this is your decision, you're clearly an EP? 

 

Like I said, saying stuff like who should be what and what should happen on the show is just entitlement. 

 

But if you're so relentlessly steadfast in your decision on what should happen on the show to the point of undermining Felicity's role on the team, I fear you're just going to end up being disappointed in the show because obviously Felicity and Oliver will be one of the focal points of the season. 

 

This conversation just makes me imagine Oliver in the middle being pulled by Felicity and Diggle each screaming "mine!". Childish indeed. Diggle doesn't NEED bonding time with Oliver. He's an independent man who realizes Oliver has a life of his own and so does John Diggle. This is the case in real life too. You don't only hang out with your best friend.