All Episodes Talk

[Ms Blue Jay]

 

[aghst]

First casting news for the Frasier reboot:

Quote

Lyndhurst is now the first cast member announced to join the new iteration of the beloved sitcom. The role marks a reunion for Grammer and Lyndhurst, who previously starred together in “Man of La Mancha” for the English National Opera at the London Coliseum. 

Plot details are being kept mostly under wraps for the series, but the official logline states, “Frasier is off to a different city with new challenges to face, new relationships to forge, and an old dream or two to finally fulfill. Frasier has re-entered the building!”

Lyndhurst will play Alan Cornwall, described as “Frasier’s old college buddy turned university professor. British, boozy and larger than life, Alan has an intellect on par with Frasier’s—if only he ever felt like using it. Alan’s mischievous streak might be just what Frasier could use to shake up his routine, while Frasier’s thoughtful guidance might help Alan find some of the direction he’s been missing in his own life.”

Lyndhurst is known for his roles in British sitcoms like “Only Fools and Horses” and “Goodnight Sweetheart,” both of which earned him award nominations and wins. His other credits include “Butterflies,” “The Two of Us,” “The Piglet Files,” and “After You’ve Gone.”

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/frasier-sequel-series-paramount-plus-cast-nicholas-lyndhurst-1235488911/

 

So this Brit actor will probably play the biggest role other than Frasier himself?

His character will no doubt be compared to Niles and Martin.

[TheOtherOne]

New Freddy is cast. It's too bad they didn't let Trevor Einhorn keep the part (if he wanted it) since he's still acting. But maybe he didn't want it?

https://deadline.com/2023/01/frasier-jack-cutmore-scott-cast-frasier-son-freddy-sequel-paramount-plus-nicholas-lyndhurst-1235221548/

[Ms Blue Jay]

46 minutes ago, TheOtherOne said:

New Freddy is cast. It's too bad they didn't let Trevor Einhorn keep the part (if he wanted it) since he's still acting. But maybe he didn't want it?

https://deadline.com/2023/01/frasier-jack-cutmore-scott-cast-frasier-son-freddy-sequel-paramount-plus-nicholas-lyndhurst-1235221548/

Whaaaaaaaaaaa that's so silly.  Trevor Einhorn is still acting!

I already hate this decision!  He was in "Mad Men" he can pull off "Frasier"!

https://outsider.com/american-entertainment/frasier-star-trevor-einhorn-expresses-interest-reprising-role-frasiers-son/

Edited January 13, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[Bethany]

Interesting that they decided to make Freddy a little closer to Martin's character than Frasier's and it looks like Freddy is turning to Frasier for assistance rather than Frasier needing Freddy.  I honestly thought they'd go in another direction this time around but it doesn't sound like it.  I hope that Lilith at least guests a time or two and they mention what happened to Niles, Daphne and Roz!

[Bort]

Meh, I never really cared for Trevor as Frederick anyway, fine with me.

[chessiegal]

42 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Meh, I never really cared for Trevor as Frederick anyway, fine with me.

Me too.

I hope the writing is as good as the original. That's a huge part of why I really like Frasier.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Interesting that they decided to make Freddy a little closer to Martin's character than Frasier's and it looks like Freddy is turning to Frasier for assistance rather than Frasier needing Freddy.  I honestly thought they'd go in another direction this time around but it doesn't sound like it.  I hope that Lilith at least guests a time or two and they mention what happened to Niles, Daphne and Roz!

Yeah, I like the twist on that premise. The idea of Frederick becoming a fireman is an interesting choice...unexpected, but I'm curious tos ee what they'll do with that. 

And yes, even if the others don't actually show up, so long as we get to know they're happy and doing well with their own lives, I'll be happy :). 

[Egg McMuffin]

12 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Me too.

I hope the writing is as good as the original. That's a huge part of why I really like Frasier.

Me too. And my concern is that none of the original creative team are involved. I remember how seasons 8-10 declined when a new writing staff was brought in, and season 11 was somewhat of a return to form when some of the writer/producers from the earlier years returned.

The new showrunners previously worked on “How I Met Your Mother” (not a favorite of mine), “Raising Hope”, and “Life in Pieces.”

[benteen]

Yes, the writing is key. Frasier had a GREAT staff, not an average one. They need an elite writing staff and this staff's resume inspires no confidence whatsoever.

[benteen]

Following up on my last posts, the creators of Frasier came from Cheers and also worked on The Jeffersons. Christopher Lloyd the writer came from The Golden Girls and later went on to create Modern Family. THAT is an elite writing staff. I hope this new writing team will be up to the task. If not, then there is no reason to do this show. That is how high the bar was set with Frasier. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by benteen

[Annber03]

And David Lloyd, who wrote "Ham Radio", also wrote the memorable "Chuckles Bites the Dust" episode of Mary Tyler Moore, which, even if those were the only two TV episodes he'd ever written, would still be one hell of a resume. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Usually I skip "Odd Man Out" (The Linda Hamilton at the airport episode), because I just feel soooooo bad for Frasier.

But I'm watching it now and I guess it's not so bad.  Linda is so sweet here, she would have been a really good match for Frasier.  Usually such a famous actor is a distraction, but it's nice.  She's a pretty subtle and natural actor.

Omg, she is wearing a wedding ring the entire scene.

At least the whole thing led to Frasier meeting Sela Ward! 😄

Edited January 19, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

I can't STAND how Martin, Niles, and Daphne act in "Frasier's Imaginary Friend".  Frasier's story is not even unbelievable.  He's a minor celebrity, and he was in Acapulco.  Why WOULDN'T supermodels be there?  Anyway it makes me so angry.

[Harry24]

22 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Usually I skip "Odd Man Out" (The Linda Hamilton at the airport episode), because I just feel soooooo bad for Frasier.

But I'm watching it now and I guess it's not so bad.  Linda is so sweet here, she would have been a really good match for Frasier.  Usually such a famous actor is a distraction, but it's nice.  She's a pretty subtle and natural actor.

Omg, she is wearing a wedding ring the entire scene.

At least the whole thing led to Frasier meeting Sela Ward! 😄

This is one of my favorite episodes.  I actually find his “humiliations” funny in this one, as opposed to the one where it looks as though he’s living on bottle/can redemptions.  

Her response to Frasier was so warm, sensitive and unexpected.  She might have been a good match for him.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Harry24

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I can't STAND how Martin, Niles, and Daphne act in "Frasier's Imaginary Friend".  Frasier's story is not even unbelievable.  He's a minor celebrity, and he was in Acapulco.  Why WOULDN'T supermodels be there?  Anyway it makes me so angry.

It also seems weird they wouldn't believe him given the kinds of gorgeous and high-profile women he tended to date in general prior to that. I mean, he literally got a date with a model at that bachelor auction in season one, so...

But when he lays it all out for them, about the supermodel zoologist who's going to the Galapagos Islands to inseminate iguanas...I mean, on its face, yeah I can see where people might find that description a bit bizarre :p. Course, he totally blew that relationship up on his own, so...

I do like that episode, though, because of how everything just piles up as it does. And Frasier's whole, "Well...whaddaya think of me now?" bit at the end is just the perfect clincher to that buildup. And I love the story about Frasier pretending he got letters from Leonard Bernstein - Niles notes that an error in the play being referenced was how they knew it was a fake, and Martin responds with, "The sloppy kid handwriting was also a clue..." XD. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I do like that episode, though, because of how everything just piles up as it does. And Frasier's whole, "Well...whaddaya think of me now?" bit at the end is just the perfect clincher to that buildup. 

That is one part that I do like.  Well, I am fine with everything in the episode except Daphne, Martin, and Niles who drive me nuts!

At least the next episode had Roz kissing Niles on the mouth and Niles saying "Everyone kisses better than Maris!"

[Ms Blue Jay]

I've been watching Frasier on the W Network here (Women's channel) and they started airing Season 5 all out of order.  🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

They skipped from 502 "The Gift Horse" to 507 "My Fair Frasier".

I didn't realize what was happening, until I turned on the supposed latest episode and it started with Frasier saying "Roz, how are you?" and Roz answering "Still pregnant".  Meanwhile they didn't air any of the episodes airing up to that.  Even though I've seen Frasier all the way through many times, my jaw dropped.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

What do you guys think of Sam, the criminal defense attorney?  She was so sexy and cool. I  love how she told Larry King that she started the rumour about how she was dating Brad Pitt.

I hate how Frasier torpedos so many good relationships and this one was one of the worst torpedos.  It would never work because Sam was just way too busy and Frasier probably couldn't deal with the ethics of her job.  But I love how they showed him dating such a kick ass woman who was way more successful than he was.

[Annber03]

I liked Sam. I liked how focused she was on her career, and how hard she worked. And I appreciated that Frasier finally just talked out his insecurities with Sam rather than let them fester and stew. 

Course, like you said, he still blew it up in the end anyway with his neurotic fixations, but yeah, it would've been fun to see how that relationship could've progressed with time. 

[andromeda331]

I liked Sam. She was really cool.

[Ailianna]

And he would have had a built in group of other friends in the other partners' wives and girlfriends. No more "falling back on Niles!"

[Egg McMuffin]

On 1/19/2023 at 3:47 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I can't STAND how Martin, Niles, and Daphne act in "Frasier's Imaginary Friend".  Frasier's story is not even unbelievable.  He's a minor celebrity, and he was in Acapulco.  Why WOULDN'T supermodels be there?  Anyway it makes me so angry.

Me too, because it also deprived us of more appearances by the lovely and talented Sela Ward.

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 minutes ago, Egg McMuffin said:

Me too, because it also deprived us of more appearances by the lovely and talented Sela Ward.

She deserved at least another episode.  She's sooooo gorgeous.

[TheOtherOne]

No Niles, but the reboot will feature Niles and Daphne's son David. Appearance-wise, looks like good casting.

https://deadline.com/2023/01/frasier-anders-keith-niles-daphne-son-david-jess-salgueiro-kelsey-grammer-paramount-plus-sequel-1235240420/

[Annber03]

Yeah, wow, that is really good casting indeed. I can totally see the resemblance. Nice to know we'll be meeting their son along the way. 

[aghst]

Um, they will have Niles and Daphne's son but not Niles and Daphne?

Not sure how that's a good thing.

[TruffleHog]

19 minutes ago, aghst said:

Um, they will have Niles and Daphne's son but not Niles and Daphne?

Not sure how that's a good thing.

If it weren't for Niles, the original series WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED!!!  I'm so disappointed that DHP isn't returning.  I still plan to watch the reboot, but Niles (or the way that Niles and Frasier played off of each other) was the best thing about Frasier, IMO. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by TruffleHog

[Egg McMuffin]

I’m guessing this new series has Frasier as a college professor and is set at a college, given some of the other characters (his new BFF, and his nephew who is in college).

Edited January 26, 2023 by Egg McMuffin

[Camera One]

Is this setting up a love triangle between Frasier's son, his roommate, and Fraser's nephew, I wonder.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Isn’t there a fifteen year age gap between Frasier’s son and nephew? If one of them is college-aged, I really can’t think of a good age for a love interest that wouldn’t be icky on at least one end. 

[paramitch]

I've been enjoying a Frasier rewatch -- I needed something light after enjoyably binging heavier stuff for several months.

I loved Frasier in its original run because it was such an escape (I would die for Frasier's apartment). Yet even all these years later it stands up really well. Sure, there are traces of sexism and homophobia -- and the cast badly needed to be diversified -- but it ages pretty well even 20+ years later, and even the little touches are just so charming.

For instance, can we talk about the genius of the opening titles? The fact that each season had a different main title color. Or how each week, we never knew if we would get some little touch to the simple, classy Frasier skyline logo, and I always found them oddly sweet and fun -- I looked forward to them, even on rewatch, I never skipped the opening logo moments. I also loved the show's use of onscreen text to split the show into "acts" as needed.

As a poor misfit southern kid who loved classical music, poetry and literature, I also loved that it was a sweet reminder of how misfits can grow up and find their people (and enrich their family relationships even if some go to tractor pulls and some go to the opera). I was definitely a little baby Frasier/Niles type with no cultural appreciation around me (but lots of love).

What was lovely this time around was to be reminded of how sharp the writing is, and all the little nuances -- perfect cast, witty writing, and sublime performances. 

And seeing the S9 opener dedication to David and Lynn Angell was heartbreaking (they were killed on September 11 on one of the planes that crashed into the two towers). I also loved the sweet little homage to him when Niles played the Schubert ("Wings" theme) in another episode not long after -- and when Nigel and Daphne named their son David.

So basically -- I expected the usual sinking feeling of "oh, dear, it wasn't as good as I remember." But oh, frabjous day (Niles voice) the show has a kind of dry intellectual wit and charm that holds up really well, barring the occasional cringeworthy dash of racism, sexism, and inadvertent homophobia that wouldn't fly today (and I truly don't think any of those were intentional, and the show, a GLAAD winner, certainly tried to be gay-friendly). But overall, I loved the whole bingewatch, even in the weaker episodes (I'm not a huge fan of any where the meanness goes over the top, especially between Frasier/Martin or Frasier/Niles, etc.).

And I know some felt the later seasons were weak, I thought they were honestly really lovely. I hated the "Daphne gets fat" storyline but it was resolved thoughtfully and with more poignance than I expected, and I adored seasons 9 and 10 way more than I had expected to -- I really appreciated how the show genuinely showed us more thoughtful sides of the characters -- a new favorite of mine would include "The Return of Martin Crane" (focused on Martin's memories of the day of his shooting) and "Rooms with a View" (when Niles goes in for bypass surgery) and LOVE every episode with Frasier's rival neighbor played by Brian Stokes Mitchell (I still wish Martin had ended up with his mother  -- they were so charming together! -- and not Ronnie).

And can I just say for the record how fantastic Moose (and later son Enzo) was as Eddie? Seriously one of the best-ever animal actors. Eddie is a genuine character on the show (a character with feelings and thoughts, however canine), and I just love that. It's so rare but I appreciate his importance to the show so much. And when Martin hugs him in that episode where he realizes Eddie is an old dog, oh, man. (sniffle)

As far as dislikes, I cannot stand pretty much any episode with Daphne's horrid family. And I honestly liked Sherry much more than Ronnie, so I'm still puzzled about how she was Martin's final pairing (gah). She's okay, just doesn't feel compatible to me (and it's a bummer she's so much younger, dammit). They just don't work for me. I don't see chemistry, and they have nothing in common. If they were gonna pair Martin with a younger woman, I wish they'd gone with Jane Kaczmarek's cop from earlier, because they did have real visible connection.

Also, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked the episode where Roz and Frasier slept together. I had missed it originally, and dreaded watching (after hearing about it), but instead I really liked it. They were both drinking and lonely, attractive, and in 10+ years I get that they might succumb. My favorite aspect was their unspoken agreement that it wasn't a good fit, combined with Frasier's instant determination to go to Roz's event and be the best possible friend she needed (pretending to be Roger so her family would give her a break). I honestly found it really sweet and mature, and loved that they didn't force a further relationship.

Meanwhile, I found S11 really gentle and fun, and enjoyed it, even if it didn't quite hit the heights I wanted. I adored Laura Linney, but even more loved Aaron Ekhart as her sweet crunchy-granola boyfriend who bromanced Frasier (they could have made it work)!

On 2/2/2019 at 10:05 PM, Camera One said:

I remember seeing Donny from commercials when I didn't watch the show, but it was sad that he came along right when Niles finally became free from Maris, who became quite the antagonist.

I know I'm in the minority as Donny is considered a good guy (and I adore Saul Rubinek as an actor), but I found Donny so gross, and seriously there is not enough sanitizer in the world for his introduction scene, where he's a sweaty intrusive mess, distrobing before them and holding out greasy sandwich pieces to them, etc. So gross. Then he's publicly picking at a boil on his foot on the night before his wedding? I mean, ugh. And he turned out to be a total asshole once Daphne dumped him. So good riddance.

On 2/27/2019 at 7:38 PM, Camera One said:

I don't think I've enjoyed any of Daphne's family members at all, including the mother (I wasn't happy to see the brother again). 

Anthony LaPaglia is a great actor, but oh my God, I just can't stand his character here (or any of Daphne's horrible family).

On 3/10/2019 at 7:56 PM, andromeda331 said:

I love those episodes except for Frasier leaving. That was the only thing that never felt right to me. Him remaining, or expanding his radio show, deciding to see patients almost anything else would have been perfect. It would have been a great book end to the pilot when Frasier says his career had grown stagnant and he wasn't close to his family.  Eleven years later his career has bounced back and he was doing very well and he was so close to his father and brother now. I just couldn't and still can't imagine Frasier deciding to leave all that. 

I tentatively agree with this. I enjoyed the last season, and really like charlotte, but I do not buy Frasier upheaving his entire life to pursue her in Chicago. As you say, he has finally found happiness and stability. It just felt like a very "movie" thing for him to do.

On 3/25/2019 at 10:38 PM, tessaray said:

My personal low for the show is the storyline written to accommodate Jane Leeves' pregnancy.  The fat shaming is cringe-worthy and I don't think the writers could get away with a similar plot today.  (Though I don't watch many sitcoms, so maybe they could/do?)  

This! This! This! Ugh. 

On 1/5/2021 at 5:02 PM, msani19 said:

I've gone back and forth about a reboot for the show. 

Honestly I'm a hard no. I will not be checking out any "Frasier" without Martin, Niles, or Eddie. It just doesn't feel right.

On 2/10/2021 at 10:09 AM, peacheslatour said:

"Mulpiple murbberers,"

HAM RADIO! One of the best episodes ever!

On 2/18/2021 at 6:36 AM, Kiddvideo said:

I want no part of a reboot since John Mahoney will be missing. The series ended on a good note with everyone starting new chapters in their lives. Happily ever after. End of story.

This is me as well. "Frasier" just isn't "Frasier" to me without Martin, Niles, Eddie, or Roz.

Last but not least: Favorite Frasier song moment: "She's Such a Groovy Lady" or "Buttons and Bows?"

Edited January 29, 2023 by paramitch
Forgot something

[stonehaven]

Simon, Daphne's brother, had one line that still cracks me up. "I took Eddie on his daily contstitutional dropping a few amendments along the way". I know it's an elevated poop joke.

The only other reason I tolerate Simon is at the time Lapalgia was playing such a humorless soul on "Without a Trace" that it was refreshing to see his comedic chops. Still, the whole family annoyed me.

 

[Bethany]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

Last but not least: Favorite Frasier song moment: "She's Such a Groovy Lady" or "Buttons and Bows?"

Oh that's a hard one!  I think I'd  choose "Buttons and Bows" but tomorrow I might pick "Groovy Lady"!

[chessiegal]

The line I cracked up at with Daphne's fat farm story is when someone asks Niles how she's doing, and he replies great, she's already lost (insert birth weight of Leeves' baby).😉

[tessaray]

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

Last but not least: Favorite Frasier song moment: "She's Such a Groovy Lady" or "Buttons and Bows?"

Groovy Lady

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

 I enjoyed the last season, and really like charlotte, but I do not buy Frasier upheaving his entire life to pursue her in Chicago. As you say, he has finally found happiness and stability. It just felt like a very "movie" thing for him to do.

He had already decided to leave Seattle for San Francisco though because he hadn't found romantic happiness. I remember the first time I saw the end where he touched down in Chicago, it was such a sweet twist. I always hoped they lived happily ever after.

As for the reboot, radio is a very competitive. I can see Frasier getting tired of that aspect and changing careers again in his third act.

[paramitch]

6 hours ago, stonehaven said:

Simon, Daphne's brother, had one line that still cracks me up. "I took Eddie on his daily contstitutional dropping a few amendments along the way". I know it's an elevated poop joke.

The only other reason I tolerate Simon is at the time Lapalgia was playing such a humorless soul on "Without a Trace" that it was refreshing to see his comedic chops. Still, the whole family annoyed me.

 

Oh, as far as LaPaglia's resume, he's fantastic as Simon! And I do think he had a few funny moments. But oh I hated his character soooo much.

1 hour ago, chessiegal said:

The line I cracked up at with Daphne's fat farm story is when someone asks Niles how she's doing, and he replies great, she's already lost (insert birth weight of Leeves' baby).😉

Bingo!  You listed one of the only two moments I liked from Daphne's "fat' storyline -- just this brilliant reference to Jane Leeves's baby (sniffle). My second was her speech about why she gained weight (I don't think it works -- I never bought the retcon that they hadn't slept together yet -- but it was a great speech.)

1 hour ago, tessaray said:

Groovy Lady

He had already decided to leave Seattle for San Francisco though because he hadn't found romantic happiness. I remember the first time I saw the end where he touched down in Chicago, it was such a sweet twist. I always hoped they lived happily ever after.

As for the reboot, radio is a very competitive. I can see Frasier getting tired of that aspect and changing careers again in his third act.

She makes my heart go hey-dee! :D 

I definitely get the inference, I just felt that Frasier leaving this incredible base of support and love felt slightly out of character and sad. He had everything he needed back home, and he had worked hard at those relationships. I guess I just cannot imagine him being so far from Niles -- Martin will always be okay, but it was Niles I thought of when he left. Who will miss the coffees...

[Annber03]

First off, @paramitch, EXCELLENT post in general. 

16 hours ago, paramitch said:

As a poor misfit southern kid who loved classical music, poetry and literature, I also loved that it was a sweet reminder of how misfits can grow up and find their people (and enrich their family relationships even if some go to tractor pulls and some go to the opera). I was definitely a little baby Frasier/Niles type with no cultural appreciation around me (but lots of love).

Yeah, this was kinda me, too. I'm not well versed in classical music, but I could still very much relate to Frasier and Niles being into things that the vast majority of people around them didn't care about or weren't interested in, and their general awkward attempts to fit in.

Quote

 

So basically -- I expected the usual sinking feeling of "oh, dear, it wasn't as good as I remember." But oh, frabjous day (Niles voice) the show has a kind of dry intellectual wit and charm that holds up really well, barring the occasional cringeworthy dash of racism, sexism, and inadvertent homophobia that wouldn't fly today (and I truly don't think any of those were intentional, and the show, a GLAAD winner, certainly tried to be gay-friendly). 

 

Yeah, while it wasn't perfect, it's one of few shows from that era that, in terms of handling issues relating to homosexuality,, actually holds up fairly well. So many other shows made gay people the punchline, whereas this one mined its humor from mocking the ignorance and stereotypes some of the characters had about gay people. They were the ones made to look the fool for a change. There's a reason this show in particular has a fairly strong LGBTQ+ fanbase. 

Quote

 

And can I just say for the record how fantastic Moose (and later son Enzo) was as Eddie? Seriously one of the best-ever animal actors. Eddie is a genuine character on the show (a character with feelings and thoughts, however canine), and I just love that. It's so rare but I appreciate his importance to the show so much. And when Martin hugs him in that episode where he realizes Eddie is an old dog, oh, man. (sniffle)

 

Yeah, it's amazing how they managed to make every role, from the main characters on down to the guest callers, count and stand out on this show, and made them feel very rea. It made the world of the show that much more lived in and believable. I have a cat that likes to stare at me, Eddie-style, and I've come to joke about that similarity :D. Just speaks to how memorable a character he really was - some of the show's funniest moments involved him!

That scene with Martin realizing how old Eddie's getting gets me every time :'(. 

Quote

 

And I honestly liked Sherry much more than Ronnie, so I'm still puzzled about how she was Martin's final pairing (gah). She's okay, just doesn't feel compatible to me (and it's a bummer she's so much younger, dammit). They just don't work for me. I don't see chemistry, and they have nothing in common. If they were gonna pair Martin with a younger woman, I wish they'd gone with Jane Kaczmarek's cop from earlier, because they did have real visible connection.

 

Ooh, yeah, it would've been interesting to see where else they could've gone with those two. I liked that storyline, too. 

I did like Ronee herself, just 'cause Wendie Malick is always entertaining, and she and Martin had some fun interactions and whatnot. But yeah, I think he and Sherry had a really good connection. I get why they broke up, but that breakup is one of the saddest moments in the show to me, because it was so clear they really, truly did love each other. And I think they could've made it had they continued their relationship. 

Quote

 

Also, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked the episode where Roz and Frasier slept together. I had missed it originally, and dreaded watching (after hearing about it), but instead I really liked it. They were both drinking and lonely, attractive, and in 10+ years I get that they might succumb. My favorite aspect was their unspoken agreement that it wasn't a good fit, combined with Frasier's instant determination to go to Roz's event and be the best possible friend she needed (pretending to be Roger so her family would give her a break). I honestly found it really sweet and mature, and loved that they didn't force a further relationship.

 

Agreed. I really liked how they resolved that, too. It's so sweet to see Frasier go to such lengths to both apologize to Roz and to help make her time with her family a little easier. Really speaks to just how far their friendship had come over the course of the series. 

Quote

Last but not least: Favorite Frasier song moment: "She's Such a Groovy Lady" or "Buttons and Bows?"

Oh, good question. If I HAD to choose, I think I'd lean towards "Buttons and Bows", because that entire performance is hysterical and it has the classic "taco show!" line, and I love that whole episode in general. 

But "Groovy Lady" is nice, too, especially in the context in which it's sung. And that episode is a great one, too - it's a sweet deeper look into Martin as a character, and it's a fun opportunity to see the Crane men all bonding as they do, and Frasier and Niles helping Martin to try and live out one of his dreams. Considering that episode's from season 3, again, it speaks to just how much their relationship had improved in such a short time - the character development on this show was fantastic, and I love how you can see it as you work your way through the series. 

10 hours ago, chessiegal said:

The line I cracked up at with Daphne's fat farm story is when someone asks Niles how she's doing, and he replies great, she's already lost (insert birth weight of Leeves' baby).😉

Yes! That was such a cute shoutout :). 

[Mabinogia]

On 1/29/2023 at 5:55 AM, paramitch said:

Last but not least: Favorite Frasier song moment: "She's Such a Groovy Lady" or "Buttons and Bows?"

She's Such a Groovy Lady. I love everything about how that song was handled, from the song itself to them managing to make it work at a funeral lol to how touched Martin was when he heard it. 

I agree about the horribleness of Daphne's family. I never cared for eps where any of them turned up. I also hated the Fat Daphne storyline but a show that ran as long as Frasier was bound to have some clunkers. 

I also grew exhausted from the Niles and Maris on again off again stuff. The show tried so hard to beat us over the head with Niles loving Maris but at the same time having him practically dry humping Daphne every chance he got. I would have been fine with Niles being unwilling to leave Maris because it was something that was familiar and thinking he'd never stand a chance with Daphne, but I don't buy for a second that he loved Maris. (full disclosure, I'm a Niles/Daphne shipper so I might be just a tad biased). 

[Athena]

46 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

The show tried so hard to beat us over the head with Niles loving Maris but at the same time having him practically dry humping Daphne every chance he got. I would have been fine with Niles being unwilling to leave Maris because it was something that was familiar and thinking he'd never stand a chance with Daphne, but I don't buy for a second that he loved Maris.

I buy that Niles was in love with the idea of Maris. She was the epitome of the kind of life Niles dreamed for as a kid: high society, classically inclined, and old money (or so they all thought). There was probably some romance and affection too after all those years together.

Niles and Frasier spent so much of their life aspiring to be Hester, but actually Niles is a lot like Martin. After the divorce, he slowly gets more confidence and he's attracted to a woman who is more down to earth and less stereo typically "refined". Niles loosens up a lot after he gets together with Daphne. I know a lot of people found them a bit boring since they just had less drama afterwards, but I kinda saw him as being more true to his unrepressed self (see "Island Niles").

[Mabinogia]

8 minutes ago, Athena said:

Niles and Frasier spent so much of their life aspiring to be Hester, but actually Niles is a lot like Martin

All good points, and I agree that he certainly loved the life Maris represented, I mean, I would love her for that house alone (cause I'm shallow and love opulent houses). Niles had the double pressure of not just aspiring to be Hester but also of living up to big brother Frasier. 

Moreso than Frasier I get the impression Niles was trying to be the person he thought he should be/wanted to be and not the person he really was deep down. I think Frasier was more true to himself in who he was. He had the confidence of a man who is living true to himself whereas Niles always seemed more like a little boy playing dress up. (It could be because DHP seems so much smaller than KG that he looks like a kid in comparison). 

Because my favorite parts of the show were Roz, Niles, Daphne, Martin and Eddie, I'm not sure how much I'll like the revival/reboot/whatever. It's not that I don't like the character of Frasier, I do, it's just that I love him playing off of those characters and it will be weird to see him without them. Then again, it was weird at first to see him outside of Cheers and look how well that turned out. 

I'd actually have loved a spin off where Roz's kid ends up falling for Niles and Daphne's kid. I know the timing is off (I think the age gap is too wide) but Roz and Niles as inlaws would be hilarious to me. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I relate to Frasier the most.  My favourite stuff is the Frasier / Niles stuff mixed in with Martin sometimes.

It feels disloyal as a woman to say that I don't care about Daphne and Roz, but I just barely do.  I just don't think this show wrote women well.  Lilith is an extraordinary character but the "Cheers" writers would have to get credit for her.  Not sure if the same writers worked on both shows.  I get that Daphne and Roz have their fans but they're so one dimensional to me.  Maybe the problem for me is that Roz is written as too much of someone to react to Frasier, and Daphne is written as too much of a fantasy for Niles.

That's why I really like when Roz interacts with Niles and Martin and even Lilith.  It's like we actually get to see sides of her.  

I never understood Jane Leeves at all until I saw "Hot in Cleveland".  I love her on that show. 

I think that Sherry was an incredible character too, but Marsha Mason is a Broadway/Hollywood legend.  I also vastly preferred her, and Jane Kaczamarek however it's spelled, and of course Cora who is clearly a darling here, to Ronnie.  But Sherry was the best character they could have ever drawn up for Martin, and was a perfect foil to Frasier and Niles.

It would have been really nice to know more about Niles and Maris's courtship.  I assume Niles saw Maris as a way to springboard himself into higher society and one-up Frasier, but at the same time, he clearly loved her.  I think he loved her more than Maris loved him, and only fell for Daphne because Maris was so inattentive towards him maybe?

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Moreso than Frasier I get the impression Niles was trying to be the person he thought he should be/wanted to be and not the person he really was deep down. I think Frasier was more true to himself in who he was. He had the confidence of a man who is living true to himself whereas Niles always seemed more like a little boy playing dress up. (It could be because DHP seems so much smaller than KG that he looks like a kid in comparison.)

I like this observation.  Yes, Frasier was true to himself, but he also had problems with thinking he was worthy of happiness.

[StarBrand]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Moreso than Frasier I get the impression Niles was trying to be the person he thought he should be/wanted to be and not the person he really was deep down.

In "The First Temptation Of Daphne", Niles was attempting to explain to Daphne how their love was "different", how theirs was unlike any that he'd had before, and said the difference was that it was not based on any expectations-his, or anyone else's, didn't fit into anyone's idea of how he should be. That was a very telling statement from him.

[Ms Blue Jay]

That wasn't my quote, but thank you

[paramitch]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I also grew exhausted from the Niles and Maris on again off again stuff. The show tried so hard to beat us over the head with Niles loving Maris but at the same time having him practically dry humping Daphne every chance he got. I would have been fine with Niles being unwilling to leave Maris because it was something that was familiar and thinking he'd never stand a chance with Daphne, but I don't buy for a second that he loved Maris. (full disclosure, I'm a Niles/Daphne shipper so I might be just a tad biased). 

I definitely agree that it was a fine line, but it was honestly one I thought had a lot of nuance.

For me, it was about expectation versus reality. Niles married Maris because she was, I believe, what he had been expected to want. I also think Niles is something of a masochist, so the inequity appealed to him -- he would eventually break through and woo her! Win her! Show her finally that he was worthy!

It's the throughline of their entire relationship -- Niles being rather naively in love with someone with all the personality of an ice cube, but as she's a little bit of a gaslighter, it's about him totally accepting that as something he felt he deserved. He would just have to work harder. I actually think a lot of people would find that realistic -- not "oh shit, my wife doesn't love me," but "oh, shit, my (wife/hubby/partner) is still waiting for me to deserve her."

And the thing is, that's all rather intellectual. It's cold. But I buy it. Then we have his adoration of Daphne and it's like he's a walking instrument and even her voice pings all his strings. He is in love with his wife but here is this "goddess" who is earthy and warm and loving and real, and he just plays with it, and enjoys his little forays into Frasier's world to see her as escapes while he tries to figure out why Maris doesn't love him. It's seriously heartbreaking.

I thought the show did a great job of balancing the issue -- that Niles really did adore Maris (or think he did) and try so hard, but also show how exhausting it is to be "onstage" for someone who doesn't love us for who we are. Whereas, he got what he wanted with Daphne in ways he hadn't imagined, this person who adored him AS HE WAS.

What a lesson. And he did so in return. I loved the two of them and (while I know it's popular to criticize) I also loved them together as they explored their relationship. Absolutely loved it.

10 hours ago, Athena said:

I buy that Niles was in love with the idea of Maris. She was the epitome of the kind of life Niles dreamed for as a kid: high society, classically inclined, and old money (or so they all thought). There was probably some romance and affection too after all those years together.

Niles and Frasier spent so much of their life aspiring to be Hester, but actually Niles is a lot like Martin. After the divorce, he slowly gets more confidence and he's attracted to a woman who is more down to earth and less stereo typically "refined". Niles loosens up a lot after he gets together with Daphne. I know a lot of people found them a bit boring since they just had less drama afterwards, but I kinda saw him as being more true to his unrepressed self (see "Island Niles").

I think this is a great point, and highlights an aspect of Niles and his sort of yearning, carnal aspect that is lacking in Frasier. Frasier is this big brother with all these romances but Niles is honestly this fiery romantic sensualist and it's something Frasier tends to disregard or overlook. Frasier's Achilles heel is that he is always in his own head, but Niles doesn't have this problem -- Niles is scared to take the leap, but he's wired and willing in ways Frasier isn't -- for a weird example -- I honestly (for instance) love every second of Niles and Roz because they always seemed moments away from tearing their clothes off at each other. I didn't exactly SHIP them, but there was this incredible chemistry.

What I think this was about was what you describe -- Niles is not Frasier. He attempts to be cerebral and esoteric (and certainly is, to an extent) but he yearns for intimacy, comfort, closeness, and this sort of raw "here we are" aspect of love and sex. Frasier to me complicates that needlessly but Niles doesn't.

So I loved him with Daphne, and also loved his quiet admission, "The best part? It was nothing like I had imagined." And I loved the positivity in it, that his  dream girl/goddess had not disappointed him but that he was so very happy and in ways he had not imagined. It made the relationship real to me.

10 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Moreso than Frasier I get the impression Niles was trying to be the person he thought he should be/wanted to be and not the person he really was deep down. I think Frasier was more true to himself in who he was. He had the confidence of a man who is living true to himself whereas Niles always seemed more like a little boy playing dress up. (It could be because DHP seems so much smaller than KG that he looks like a kid in comparison). 

I think Frasier is true to himself, but only to a point. I would argue that -- once he admits his feelings for Daphne are more than a dream, that Niles becomes the braver of the two brothers. His wants are more direct and defined; he is willing to say "this is who I am and what I want," while Frasier is sort of still flitting about and bemoaning his aloneness while rejecting dozens of beautiful, accomplished women. Niles knows what he wants, and he got it. He's done.

9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It feels disloyal as a woman to say that I don't care about Daphne and Roz, but I just barely do.  I just don't think this show wrote women well.  Lilith is an extraordinary character but the "Cheers" writers would have to get credit for her.  Not sure if the same writers worked on both shows.  I get that Daphne and Roz have their fans but they're so one dimensional to me.  Maybe the problem for me is that Roz is written as too much of someone to react to Frasier, and Daphne is written as too much of a fantasy for Niles.

That's why I really like when Roz interacts with Niles and Martin and even Lilith.  It's like we actually get to see sides of her.  

I think that Sherry was an incredible character too, but Marsha Mason is a Broadway/Hollywood legend.  I also vastly preferred her, and Jane Kaczamarek however it's spelled, and of course Cora who is clearly a darling here, to Ronnie.  But Sherry was the best character they could have ever drawn up for Martin, and was a perfect foil to Frasier and Niles.

It would have been really nice to know more about Niles and Maris's courtship.  I assume Niles saw Maris as a way to springboard himself into higher society and one-up Frasier, but at the same time, he clearly loved her.  I think he loved her more than Maris loved him, and only fell for Daphne because Maris was so inattentive towards him maybe?

I get this, and do think the show is very focused on the core trio -- Frasier, Niles, and Martin.

But I do also think they cared about the female characters, to more or less successful degrees. I hate that Roz's sexuality is just a long-running joke (and I do think now it would not be handled the same way in slightly more enlightened times). I also know for a fact she wouldn't have been saddled with a kid (which was a direct response to her sexual freedom; the writers were like "well, at some point she would get pregnant" (gag).

I don't agree about Maris (see my previous commentary above), but I agree with you on Sherry, who on rewatch is a sweet, warm, age-appropriate woman for Martin, versus the creepiness of pairing him up with Ronnie, a former fricking BABYSITTER, and who has nothing in common with him except being, I don't know, randy, witty, and jazzy? I love Wendy Malick but her character always feels like she's visiting from another sitcom. I never remotely felt intimacy between them, never feel they're simply having joy and fun together, whereas I instantly bought Marty with the neighbor's mom in a single episode, etc.

Meanwhile, I think Frasier's overthinking everything is the core problem for him -- every woman he meets, he cannot simply let go and feel, and even when he does, it's like he's playing a character who eventually has to wake up. He's the guy who will be all "you are my princess" on day two but by day 15 is like "alas, I feel the spark is dying..."

Frasier is his own worst enemy but lies to himself about how unworthy they are, he dumps them, then whines around the apartment about how lonely and alone he is, and it's sort of hilarious. Across the series, he dumps a ton of pretty wonderful beautiful talented movie-level actresses, including some Oscar/major awards nominees -- Virginia Madsen, Mercedes Ruehl, Patricia Clarkson, Jean Smart, etc. The irony for me is, while I'm happy he meets Charlotte (another Oscar nominee in Laura Linney), I just don't see them having enough in common for it to work out, but he's already spinning those fantasies in his head, so... finale. I hope he finds her and it works. I just don't quite believe it does.

It's ironic that Niles, the fantasist, takes the leap and finds real love, while Frasier to me is one of those people who will spend the rest of his life wistfully gazing at stars and dumping one beautiful, intelligent woman after the other, still wondering where it all went wrong...

My only consolation is that he will always have Lilith (for me they are the real soulmates).

[Ms Blue Jay]

 

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

Frasier is his own worst enemy but lies to himself about how unworthy they are, he dumps them, then whines around the apartment about how lonely and alone he is, and it's sort of hilarious. Across the series, he dumps a ton of pretty wonderful beautiful talented movie-level actresses, including some Oscar/major awards nominees -- Virginia Madsen, Mercedes Ruehl, Patricia Clarkson, Jean Smart, etc. The irony for me is, while I'm happy he meets Charlotte (another Oscar nominee in Laura Linney), I just don't see them having enough in common for it to work out, but he's already spinning those fantasies in his head, so... finale. I hope he finds her and it works. I just don't quite believe it does.e the real soulmates).

I think he was pretty mature with Mercedes Ruehl at least.  I think they came to a very mature and mutual decision that things weren't going to work out between them, especially long distance.

He was a total idiot with Virginia Madsen's character.

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

But I do also think they cared about the female characters, to more or less successful degrees. I hate that Roz's sexuality is just a long-running joke (and I do think now it would not be handled the same way in slightly more enlightened times). I also know for a fact she wouldn't have been saddled with a kid (which was a direct response to her sexual freedom; the writers were like "well, at some point she would get pregnant" (gag).

I've been thinking about this a lot too.  Because I've been watching "Caroline in the City" and they slut shame Annie all day on that show too.  They slut shame Annie, Blanche on Golden Girls, Samantha on Sex and the City, Roz on Frasier.  Not once, not twice but it's a constant theme. It's almost a staple of 80s and 90s sitcoms, it's so gross.

Also, they gave Samantha breast cancer and while all us women understand that that is a serious issue, a lot of us think that the writers also wanted to punish Samantha in a way for being promiscuous.  They even had a doctor tell Samantha that the risk is higher for women who don't have a child by a certain age.

Roz, similar kind of story.  Sure women get pregnant, being a mother is a wonderful thing for many people, but I looked up Peri Gilpin and she had kids via surrogate so she wasn't pregnant in real life, so the plotline can't be explained by that.  I also think that was a weird and suspicious way to go with her character.   Like Roz was used as a cautionary tale the way Samantha was, except Samantha's situation was just a lot worse.

Jane Leeves was ACTUALLY pregnant, they make her "fat".  Peri Gilplin was NOT pregnant, so they make her pregnant.  🙄

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[paramitch]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I've been thinking about this a lot too.  Because I've been watching "Caroline in the City" and they slut shame Annie all day on that show too.  They slut shame Annie, Blanche on Golden Girls, Samantha on Sex and the City, Roz on Frasier.  Not once, not twice but it's a constant theme. It's almost a staple of 80s and 90s sitcoms, it's so gross.

Also, they gave Samantha breast cancer and while all us women understand that that is a serious issue, a lot of us think that the writers also wanted to punish Samantha in a way for being promiscuous.  They even had a doctor tell Samantha that the risk is higher for women who don't have a child by a certain age.

Roz, similar kind of story.  Sure women get pregnant, being a mother is a wonderful thing for many people, but I looked up Peri Gilpin and she had kids via surrogate so she wasn't pregnant in real life, so the plotline can't be explained by that.  I also think that was a weird and suspicious way to go with her character.   Like Roz was used as a cautionary tale the way Samantha was, except Samantha's situation was just a lot worse.

Jane Leeves was ACTUALLY pregnant, they make her "fat".  Peri Gilplin was NOT pregnant, so they make her pregnant.  🙄

Yes! Great points. I am so tired of women being slut-shamed or turned into punchlines for their sexuality, and your examples are all 100% what NOT to do. I always felt so sorry for Kim Cattrall on Sex and the City especially -- she is a superb actress (seriously, just her stage resume is 5 stars), incredibly brave for doing what she was asked week after week in that role, but her character was constantly treated as the punchline or joke of the week. Even the handling of her cancer was so tone-deaf and crass to me. I totally understood KC noping out of the whole franchise at a certain point.

I do think Roz ultimately succeeds as a character, and I really like her tough-talking, warmth, and sexiness. I think they did half the job -- they gave us a terrific and unusual female character. They just then didn't quite seem to know how to handle that on occasion, hence the jokes (some of them from Frasier and especially Niles are really cruel, and the only thing that made it okay was that Roz is never hurt by them and just gives back as good as she gets) that do not age well.

The writers admitted that they gave Roz the pregnancy and baby as direct reactions to her sexuality (I think this was talked about in the Vanity Fair anniversary article), but I think they also did say they regretted that reaction and the storyline.

I do think times have improved somewhat with new awareness and recognition that slutshaming is not okay, and that stories can explore highly sexual women without stigmatizing them ("Fleabag" comes to mind for me here), so fingers crossed that that continues.

[Egg McMuffin]

100% agree on Sherry vs Ronee. I like both actresses a lot but I thought Martin and Sherry had much more chemistry and she was the kind of woman I could see him with.