Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, marihunc said:

Actually, the particle accelerator exploded at the end of 2x09, when Barry got back to CC, and back then Laurel was still in her drunk, pill-popping phase. :)

Lance was in the hospital at the end of 209 and Laurel was with him.

[bijoux]

43 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

 

I mean there were a few moments in season 1 where I kind of felt bad for her - like when Quentin used her - but those moments were so few and far between that they hardly mattered. It didn't change my opinion of her. 

I think I did feel a smidgeon of sympathy until she went to bitch about it to Tommy. Then I was firmly in his corner. Sucks being lied to, huh? Too bad, so sad.

[marihunc]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Lance was in the hospital at the end of 209 and Laurel was with him.

Oops, you're right :D I completely forgot about that part of the story, I was so focused on Barry :D

[johntfs]

This is going to start off on Oliver, but it ultimately relates to Laurel.  Oliver is a user of people.  That comes off as mean, but I think it's accurate.  Despite the cuteness and fun of the initial Felicity/Oliver scene, if the second scene had ended with Felicity saying, "Yeah, I tried everything I could think of and got nothing.  You might try Karen Beecher in the next cubicle.  She's pretty good with data recovery." that's the last time we're seeing Felicity Smoak on the show.  Of course, Felicity got the data and Oliver kept going back to her because she kept being useful until eventually she became part of Team Arrow.  Still, the progression is clear.  Felicity is useful.  Oliver finds her valuable because she is useful.  Only after that does he really come to value her as a person in her own right to the point of falling in love with her.

After Oliver came back from the island, Laurel wasn't useful to him.  Prior to that she had been.  Laurel made an way to get Oliver's parents off his back and was great cover for him sleeping around.  Once Oliver became focused on Mission: Hood, Laurel was no longer useful in the same way so he stopped viewing her as valuable.  I think one reason we see Laurel becoming Black Canary is her sort of figuring that out and clumsily trying to be useful to attract Oliver to her.  Maybe not consciously, but that was likely part of it.  Of course, by that time Oliver had long since come to love Felicity so Laurel as Black Canary was less interesting to him.

Probably a more accurate eulogy for Laurel would be Oliver saying "Laurel Lance was a somewhat pathetic woman, but her desperation to be valued by me made her occasionally useful in the field as Black Canary before she died in a stupid, useless manner.  Luckily, Dinah Drake is an improvement by an order of magnitude having police training, extensive experience acting as a vigilante and a sonic cry that is an intrinsic ability which can be further augmented by technology."

Edited June 25, 2017 by johntfs

[statsgirl]

You're forgetting the last few episodes of s1.  Oliver had decided that because of his crusade, he couldn't be involved/in love with someone.  But as soon as he figured out that Malcolm was responsible for the Undertaking and believed that once Malcolm was defeated he could have the love that he wanted in his life, he headed straight for Laurel even though he had just told her to fight for her relationship with Tommy.

It was a crappy thing to do to his best friend but the undertone was that if he could have had the life he dreamed of, it would be with Laurel.  Nothing to do with whether she was useful to him or not, she was the dream he had hung on to.

In terms of why she became the Black Canary, Laurel always thought that she could do whatever she wanted to do, and that she always had the right of it.  She was going to be "the justice you can't run from".  It seems to me more that she was angry that she was excluded from Team Arrow and determined to show them that she was just as good as they are.  There was no pleading about her demand outside Thea's hospital room that Oliver treat her as an equal even though it was clear to anyone else that she wasn't.

[johntfs]

53 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It was a crappy thing to do to his best friend but the undertone was that if he could have had the life he dreamed of, it would be with Laurel.  Nothing to do with whether she was useful to him or not, she was the dream he had hung on to.

Yes, but she'd been useful to him in the past.  Being useful to Oliver is how you get your foot in the door with him.  He might come to care for you for your own sake, but it always starts with being useful (whatever that means at the time) to him.

[LeighAn]

9 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

You're way more charitable to KC then I am. As far as I can see she can't act. Period.

She fails at everything that an actor should do in a scene. She can't/doesn't emote; change her body language; facial expression; voice (cadence or pitch). There's no way to tell what the character is supposed to feel/think because all she does is deliver lines.

Case in point, 522. WTF was Black Siren thinking in that scene with Lance (at the safe house)? Was she playing him? Did she really care?  Paul Blackthorne/Lance and Willa/Thea have every emotion on display and, KC is a fucking block of wood, nothing there.

Her delivery of the daddy line makes no sense when you take in the emotionless acting. Yes, I'm sure her defenders will point to the follow up/chained scene but, then go to 523 and there's nothing. Not only can KC NOT do nuance, she can't even understand what she's supposed to do in a scene because she doesn't understand the scenes she's in. 

Her "acting" consists of look down/look up, deliver line. Her angry/upset "acting" consists of taking a deep breath and deliver line. Her tough "acting" consists of crossing arms and delivering line, etc etc. Tough walk = runway walk, badass villain walk = drunk walk etc. Oh and let's not forget the follow to laser pointer acting in 218.

I don't consider that good acting I can barely lable it as acting. Is she better as a bitchy character? Sure but, that's IMO damning with faint praise. Well, she's not absolute Dog Shit like when she tried to act as Laurel. Doesn't make her good though (IMO). 

Another thing to mention is that I could be more charitable if there was some growth shown, but there hasn't been.

I readily admit that Stephen was a lot more wooden in season one then he is currently. I look at his scenes about Thea in 3x20 or some of his scenes in 5x17 or with Chase and Moira at the end of 5x23 and they could easily be held up pretty well against some of the more serious network drama actors.

Emily was terribad at crying and heavy emotional scenes in the first couple of seasons but then you look at her work in season 3,4,5 and its night and day when it comes to emotional depth.

There has been moments here and there but few and far between overall Katie just seems like she phones in her performance as though she was under the impression that she doesn't have to work hard or put in any effort to her character. 

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

This is going to start off on Oliver, but it ultimately relates to Laurel.  Oliver is a user of people.  That comes off as mean, but I think it's accurate.  Despite the cuteness and fun of the initial Felicity/Oliver scene, if the second scene had ended with Felicity saying, "Yeah, I tried everything I could think of and got nothing.  You might try Karen Beecher in the next cubicle.  She's pretty good with data recovery." that's the last time we're seeing Felicity Smoak on the show.  Of course, Felicity got the data and Oliver kept going back to her because she kept being useful until eventually she became part of Team Arrow.  Still, the progression is clear.  Felicity is useful.  Oliver finds her valuable because she is useful.  Only after that does he really come to value her as a person in her own right to the point of falling in love with her.

After Oliver came back from the island, Laurel wasn't useful to him.  Prior to that she had been.  Laurel made an way to get Oliver's parents off his back and was great cover for him sleeping around.  Once Oliver became focused on Mission: Hood, Laurel was no longer useful in the same way so he stopped viewing her as valuable.  I think one reason we see Laurel becoming Black Canary is her sort of figuring that out and clumsily trying to be useful to attract Oliver to her.  Maybe not consciously, but that was likely part of it.  Of course, by that time Oliver had long since come to love Felicity so Laurel as Black Canary was less interesting to him.

I agree that if Felicity couldn't have pulled the data off the laptop that might have been the last time we saw her. But this was post-island Oliver, who had been traumatized and was a killing machine.  He didn't have time for relationships not even with his best friend Tommy or fantasy object Laurel.  Both Thea and Moira complained that he wasn't connecting emotionally with them.  And yet he was worried enough about Thea that he confronted Moira on her bad parenting so that Thea wouldn't suffer the same consequences that he did.

Pre-island Oliver seems no more of a user to me than any overly- indulged privileged rich kid.  Adolescence is the age of narcissism.  I think the idea that Moira and Robert were happy to have Laurel date Oliver is more fanon than canon.  Otherwise Moira would have been a lot more indulgent when she found Laurel spending the night in Oliver's room and Robert would have taken a stand when he found Sara on the Gambit not just told Oliver it wasn't going to end well.  Nor was Laurel a convenient cover to let him sleep around -- she would have let Oliver clearly know that wasn't okay with her even if she did always take him back later. 

As @quarks pointed out, Lawyer Laurel was very useful to Oliver when he first came back from the island until the show decided that they wanted to use her less.  Taking Laurel at KC's evaluation that the most important thing about Laurel is her relationship with Oliver diminishes her.  I'd like to think that Laurel joined the team in s3 because she was frustrated at being unable to get justice for people in her role as ADA and saw stepping outside the law as a vigilante as a way to accomplish what she couldn't within the law.  Agreed that she wasn't interesting to Oliver then but that's more because he saw her lack of fighting ability as a danger to the team rather than because he was in love with Felicity.

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Yes, but she'd been useful to him in the past.  Being useful to Oliver is how you get your foot in the door with him.  He might come to care for you for your own sake, but it always starts with being useful (whatever that means at the time) to him.

I have absolutely no idea how Susan Williams was useful to him, other than as a distraction from Felicity seeing Billy.  Sure, she was a sympathetic ear but there were a number of other people he could have got that from.  Even Roy he took on only reluctantly and more to keep Roy from getting hurt by going off on his own than because Roy could be useful to him.

Edited June 26, 2017 by statsgirl

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I have absolutely no idea how Susan Williams was useful to him, other than as a distraction from Felicity seeing Billy.

That's a definite use.  It's not good or healthy use, but it's a use.  Also, once Billy was killed he seemed to focus and care less for Susan.

[BkWurm1]

I think it's really easy to claim the "useful" theory for really anyone if you try.  People gravitate to people that bring something positive to them.  Whether that is getting them answers, making them smile, feeding an ego, as a way to pass time, tapping into altruistic ideals or just getting a nagging mother off their backs.  Ultimately, there is ALWAYS some useful factor in letting people into our lives at least initially.  I don't find Oliver so very much better or worse in that regards than anyone else.  

I would more judge someone as a user of people if they didn't KEEP others in their lives once they were no longer purely useful even if they'd gotten to know them.  

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 I don't find Oliver so very much better or worse in that regards than anyone else.

He was a little worse about it in the first season than in others because his constant "must complete Dad's book mission" outlook.  He only ever shared his secret when he was stuck in some version of a situation of no choice.  When he did add people to Team Arrow, he added people who could complement his own skills (John Diggle) and add new capabilities he didn't have (Felicity Smoak).  In terms of Laurel's relationship with Tommy, it felt a little like a weird version of Oliver's relationship with Laurel.  Tommy was the person Laurel should want, just like Laurel was the competent, respectable kind of girl Oliver should want.  He's brave, kind and generous of spirit.  He's exactly who she needs to get over Oliver.  Except Laurel and Oliver had a lot of emotional inertia and unfinished business.  Neither of them wanted to hurt Tommy.  They just didn't choose to stop themselves.

[statsgirl]

replying in the Oliver Queen thread

[Mellowyellow]

@Featherhat did Amy G audition for Laurel????

Was she any good?

Wow! That ship might have sailed if they cast someone else!

[Featherhat]

I remember it being mentioned either in an interview or in someone's transcript at a con that she auditioned. I haven't seen any footage of it or anything but since I think she's a good actress who even as batshit insane Cupid has better chemistry with SA and other characters in general, I think it's possible she could have made it work. Of course they'd still have the horrible backstory hampering it but that didn't stop it from being popular on TVD and other shows.

I definitely think someone else being cast might have saved it, CL made Sara my favourite character and I would never have thought that after the pilot and the backstory, but I love Felicity so I'm glad KC forced them to change course. Sara might still have been Ravager if there was a popular LL or Lauriver and Tommy might have stayed to become the Dark Archer in that continued triangle.

[tv echo]

^^^ Amy Gumenick originally auditioned for the role of Laurel Lance when they were casting the pilot...

‘Arrow’ Villain Amy Gumenick Says She Originally Hoped to Play Another Character
Travis Reilly | November 19, 2014 
http://www.thewrap.com/arrow-villain-amy-gumenick-says-she-originally-hoped-to-play-another-character/

Quote

“I auditioned for the show several times,” Amy Gumenick, who debuted as Cupid during the final scene of last week’s episode, told TheWrap. “I first auditioned when they were casting the pilot, actually, for Katie Cassidy’s role.”

‘Arrow’ Star Amy Gumenick Talks Finding the Right Role on ‘Arrow’, her ‘Supernatural’ Days and Her Original Love of Theatre
Nora Dominick   APRIL 11, 2015   
http://emertainmentmonthly.com/index.php/arrow-star-amy-gumenick-talks-finding-the-right-role-on-arrow-her-supernatural-days-and-her-original-love-of-theatre/

Quote

AG: I have been admiring Arrow since I read the pilot script. I read for it and it has kind of been an elaborate game of finding where I fit since. I originally auditioned for the role of Laurel Lance, Katie Cassidy’s character, and that didn’t work out and I just kept coming back. The casting team over at Arrow is so nice and kind and I was determined to find a way to be involved with this show. This was a show I wanted to be part of. David Rapaport over in casting is the nicest person and I befriended him over this long process of trying to find the right role for me. Finally I came in and read for the role of “Redhead,” who ultimately turned out to be Carrie Cuter/Cupid. And I mean just from hearing the name of the character I was concerned because I am blonde in real life. So, I went into it not knowing anything about the character, which I think was the best thing for me because I didn’t have any preconceived idea of who this person was. This was one of the first times I left the audition room thinking I left everything on the table. I gave it my all. Then I ultimately found out that the “Redhead” was Carrie Cuter and I was ecstatic.

All the Crazy Arrow Casting Secrets That’ll Shock You to the Core
ALEXANDRA DALUISIO   OCTOBER 2, 2016
http://www.teen.com/2016/10/02/television/arrow-casting-secrets-failed-auditions/#3

Quote

Amy, who plays Arrow's villain Carrie Cutter/Cupid on the CW hit, told TheWrap.com that she actually tried out to play another character.
"I auditioned for the show several times. I first auditioned when they were casting the pilot, actually, for Katie Cassidy’s role [of Laurel Lance]."

Edited August 20, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I wish we could see an audition tape!!!

I remember watching audition footage for "The second Mrs De Winter" in Rebecca. There was footage of Vivien Leigh auditioning and she came off as shifty and unhinged to me! She would have been terrible in that role! Joan Fontaine was absolutely brilliant and perfect for it!

[tv echo]

I couldn't find an audition tape for AG, but I found this "Laurel" audition tape (posted by actress Austin Marie Sayre)...

Edited August 20, 2017 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

That's a pretty good audition tape.  She caught the sadness and regret and  the conflicted feelings and let the audience know.

[strikera0]

Yeah, what I saw in that audition tape felt more real to me than what ended up on the show. I actually just checked out that actress' IMDB profile and she hasn't had an acting credit to her name since 2010(!). I think that goes to show you how important it is to know the right people in the entertainment industry. Connections (or certain other things) seem to trump talent a lot of the time, unfortunately. 

[Chaser]

Reminds me how awful Oliver and Laurel were set up.

[statsgirl]

It was a bad set-up but I think that if we had see Laurel conflicted and fighting between her anger and her attraction to Oliver I could have got beyond it.

[Chaser]

A better actress would have made Laurel more likable but I would still think Oliver and Laurel were trash.

[bijoux]

6 hours ago, Chaser said:

A better actress would have made Laurel more likable but I would still think Oliver and Laurel were trash.

Yeah, this Laurel I could have liked, but I still wouldn't have wanted her with Oliver. Why inflict a bastard who put her through that on her?

[Mellowyellow]

I could have liked Laurel if she was as sweet and cute as EBR and if Oliver looked at her the way he looks at Felicity.

They could have rewritten it so that after the island he grew up, they mended their friendship and she became the one. The one who suppprted him, believed in him, made him smile. If they could have done that I might buy into the ship and forgive the bad back story. 

I'm a believer that EBR and SA could have sold Oliver and Laurel to me. Gimme loooots of heart eyes and a non sour Laurel.

[bijoux]

If after their sucky set up Laurel were just sweetness and light, I'd have thought there was something wrong with her. I'm glad the show failed spectacularly on that front, because I doubt I would have watched it otherwise, no matter the chemistry. 

[Mellowyellow]

I would not watch Arrow without EBR so she'd lure me in even if she played Laurel!

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think showing her more vulnerable would have helped, instead she was written/acted as bitchy and self righteous. I don't know if I would have shipped Oliver and Laurel with other actors with the awful scenes they wrote for them..maybe with a really explosive chemistry I would have pretended some scenes never happened, LOL.

[Featherhat]

14 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think showing her more vulnerable would have helped, instead she was written/acted as bitchy and self righteous. I don't know if I would have shipped Oliver and Laurel with other actors with the awful scenes they wrote for them..maybe with a really explosive chemistry I would have pretended some scenes never happened, LOL.

Yeah it didn't help that even in scenes were they were *supposed* to be connecting Laurel came off as either smug, obnoxious or bitchy. Obviously she was perfectly entitled to tell him to go to hell and never see him again but they wrote her as actually wanting to be in his life so but KC wasn't capable of playing subtle, vulnerable or conflicted about Oliver. Either she hated Oliver's guts or she wanted to jump his bones every time he paid her some attention even in the pilot. When he pushes her away, that's when she's in OTT self righteous mode. I suppose if they had someone who could play explosive chemistry Love/Hate that could have worked, although I agree the backstory is still toxic. However I do enjoy Oliver and Sara's complicated relationship on the Island, post Island and post lunge, though the full on romantic aspect instead of comfort/FWB was the least effective, it can be done.

I do wonder if they hadn't cast EBR as Felicity what would have happened to Laurel. They were apparently looking for alternative LI's but if they hadn't found a big potential in ep 3 would Helena have come back for more or would they just keep throwing every female character at him until they found one that stuck? But in that case LL as LI might not have been rushed to it's 90% conclusion at the end of S1 and the triangle might have dragged on longer.

[Mellowyellow]

Hehe I've now realised that they hooked them up S1 to effectively get rid of it. 

Cuz that always puzzled me since shows usually drag that stuff on for ages. Even Felicity and Oliver took 2 seasons to get together.

[statsgirl]

Yes, MG said in an interview near the end of season 1 that they had to play out Oliver/Laurel (i.e. the hook-up and how it failed) before they could explore Oliver and Felicity.

[LeighAn]

 I'm surprised others auditioned for Laurel. I thought Katie said she hand picked Arrow from a number of pilots the CW offered her? I swear I read that somewhere. Like maybe she said it at a con? 

[bijoux]

That is true going by all sources. I guess they sent out he casting notice before she decided on Arrow.

[Featherhat]

I think they often do that unless an actor signing on to a script is what got the project greenlighted in the first place.

There's no guarantee that their first or even 3rd choice would say yes, especially if as in the case of Arrow there was no garantee that the then "teen girl" network watchers would tune in, which is why they went for the silly ads playing up the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle at first. It became a different show within the pilot or the promo monkeys wanted it to be a completely different type show.

 A lot of these audition videos are from actors who got the script from an agent but wouldn't have been seriously considered if there tapes ever got seen at all.

And in the case of KC well the long held rumour has always been that she was more of a network pick so them offering "the best thing about Melrose Place" (which I agree with) and longtime CW actor her pick of scripts whilst the show is considering other options in case makes sense.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Featherhat

[Mellowyellow]

I'm just curious was KC in any popular role back I her hey day? Like was she ever a lead character like Serena or Blair on Gossip Girl before Arrow? Or was Arrow meant to be her "lead" role?

[bijoux]

She was definitely the most well known from the main trio at the conception of the show. She had a lead role on Harper's Island and Melrose Place. The latter was on CW, just as Gossip Girl, where she had a recurring role. So she put in her time with the network. But this was supposed to be her big break, I think.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm just curious was KC in any popular role back I her hey day? Like was she ever a lead character like Serena or Blair on Gossip Girl before Arrow? Or was Arrow meant to be her "lead" role?

She had a run as Ruby#1 which a lot of people liked and as I said above, her Ella Sims was actually one of the best things about the Melrose Place Reboot (though that wasn't a high bar) and it played to her strengths as bitchy and a less "St Laurel" and toxic backstory made the character much less self righteous even when she was obnoxious. She also did a couple of popular horror films. Then she got a recurring gig in Gossip Girl the then Flagship show of the network. So yeah it was probably considered "her time" to get a break out role, similar to Chris Wood of Supergirl who some people at the network have been trying to find a vehicle for a while now. There's nothing actually wrong with that in theory or other roles/contacts getting you a part, that's how it works a lot of the time and I'm pretty sure WH got Thea partly based on her Kaitlin Cooper, just that KC was miscast as LL and maybe their hoped for "Black Canary" was miswritten as a Rachel Dawes knock off in the first place. But neither role played to KC's strengths.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Featherhat

[LeighAn]

I thought the CW HAD to give Katie a show because she was under a CBS contract? 

[Morrigan2575]

38 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I thought the CW HAD to give Katie a show because she was under a CBS contract? 

Rumor, not proven fact but, CW has been doing that for ages so it's quite probably correct.

[Primal Slayer]

14 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm just curious was KC in any popular role back I her hey day? Like was she ever a lead character like Serena or Blair on Gossip Girl before Arrow? Or was Arrow meant to be her "lead" role?

She did plenty of high profile gigs back in the day but MP was practically her lead role that made her popular with a lot of critics. Shame MP was cancelled after the first season, it was finding its footing by the end.

[BkWurm1]

She's nearly unrecognizable.

[statsgirl]

I thought she was gorgeous before she had the cheek fat removed after s1.  Like a madonna.

[EmilyBettFan]

I still don't get why they had to have her and Oliver get together. So stupid.

[BkWurm1]

They had to get them together so they could end it.  

[wingster55]

Because that was the logical progression. 

 

I dont understand the notion that Laurel had to be "vulnerable" or less "bitchy" to be a successful character. Never see that said about a male character. 

[Starfish35]

I don't know about "less bitchy", but if they were going that direction, they needed to own it.  Like Cordelia Chase on Buffy.  I adored Cordy!  Or Mary on In Plain Sight, another of my favorite characters.  But they never pretended that she wasn't what she was.   The problem comes in when the character is coming across differently than the narrative is telling you she should.  It creates a disconnect between the audience and the story the writers are trying to tell.  

As for "vulnerable", I didn't scroll up to see what context that was said in.  But I do think the character as it was written needed someone who could play a multi-layered character.  Someone who is hurt, angry, determined, and loving and caring all at the same time.  And Katie Cassidy just cannot, in my opinion.  Look at how Claudia Black played Aeryn Sun on Farscape, or even Vala on Stargate.  Vala wasn't nearly as well written a character as Aeryn was, by even there Claudia Black managed to give her layers just by her acting beyond the whole "sexy thief" presentation.  Katie can't do that, but the character really needed someone who could.

[Starfish35]

One thing though, I want to add:  I know some people have a problem with the way Laurel treated Oliver when he first returned, and some don't.  I'm in the second group.  I think Laurel had a perfect right to hate Oliver's guts and wish him dead.  The problem for me came that they had her reverse course on that within the same episode, and then get mad again when he rejected her.  We have her spitting insults at him when defending him in court, and we have her eating ice cream with him.  It was just too much back and forth.  So in that way I agree that the writing failed the character.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

Actually one of the things that I found endearing of Oliver was that he was vulnerable deep down. While for example I couldn't stand wild dog when they were writing him as cocky and arrogant and only that. I don't think it's a coincidence than suddenly they tried to show that he has a soft heart deep down with those scenes with Curtis from the mid season forward. It's human nature I think to sympathize with people/characters that show vulnerability. It makes them human and not only two dimensional. KC wasn't able to make me feel for the character she played. I couldn't feel Laurel's pain, the depth of who she was. She portrayed her as full of herself and mean to Oliver saying things that ended up making me sympathize for him. Not because he wasn't a complete ass to her and didn't deserve her anger. He did, but saying things like wishing he rotted in hell longer than 5 years when we saw what he has been through makes me feel sorry for him. Because no one deserves to be tortured or to see his father kill himself.

She had all the reason to be mad at him and the main problem was that she wanted to get back together with him. If she never wanted to see his face again I would have understood and cheered for her but you can't go from wishing a guy to rot in hell to want to reconnect with him in the span of an episode. It's just dumb.

[Starfish35]

43 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

She had all the reason to be mad at him and the main problem was that she wanted to get back together with him. If she never wanted to see his face again I would have understood and cheered for her but you can't go from wishing a guy to rot in hell to want to reconnect with him in the span of an episode. It's just dumb.

^ This.  They needed to have her slowly change her mind over several episodes, while gradually seeing that he'd changed.  But having her change her mind so soon just completely undercut her character .

[Trini]

Should there be a new character thread for Black Siren?

[BkWurm1]

Yes.  At first I was going to try justify lumping them together but they are too different and it would be confusing not to know immediately who is being talked about. 

Any thread name suggestions we could take to the mods?

 

Black Siren - Here She Comes Again

Edited October 8, 2017 by BkWurm1