Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[BkWurm1]

I actually get going back for the files since no, the hard copies didn't have digital forms (which since Laurel was one of the heads of CNRI perhaps  I will blame her for that snafu as well)  but in the episode, Quentin calls Laurel when he thinks he's going to die and tells her to get out of the glades.  And she doesn't leave and doesn't suggest to anyone else that they leave until after they all hear the implosion. 

 

Any part of me being ok with what Laurel was trying to accomplish stopped when she had immediate knowledge of the imminent threat and yet after she got off the phone with her dad, she said nothing to no one and only said they were done after the machine had activated.  The files were important  but not at the expense of lives.  People's lives were going to change with the loss of the files and they even may face hardship, but none of them were going to die and yet because Laurel put her work ahead of lives, Tommy died.  Otherwise she wouldn't have been in the building to get stuck and Tommy never would have had to go inside and so yeah, Laurel makes bad choices and her feelings may take a hit, but the consequences for everyone else is so much worse. 

[kismet]

If the files were digital (yeah they SHOULDVE been, but this is Arrow) then yeah her going back would've been stupid but they weren't and she didn't want all of that stuff that could help all her clients go to waste. .

What if she had died in the process? Where would her clients be without their attorney? What would have happened to her family & friends in grieving her?

 

I get what she was trying to do. But when QL, OQ, MQ, the emergency personnel, the media & I think ever her friend tell her to get out of the building, leave the glades - she should try to listen to one of them. And like @bkwurm1 said - when there is the evidence of immediate danger aka the building shaking, earth moving, debris loosening, it doesn't matter what's in those papers, it is not worth your life or the people who come to rescue you lives. It was impulsive and irrational what she did, but I can give her a pass because likely adrenaline probably interfered with her thought process. But it really was the start of the LL trend to do something stupid with good intentions that winds up hurting other people far worse than herself and far worse than if she had just not done the thing.

[statsgirl]

Laurel going into the CNRI building (not wherever they keep hard, official evidence in Starling City) to save papers, meaning superfluous items in our digital age  whereas her father and Oliver told her with unmistakable seriousness to stay the hell out of the Glades is imo the tipping moment when more people began to dislike her for something she did, rather than for her attitude of for Oliver's stupidity when it came to her.

It was intended to look selfless, it came off merely as criminally stupid, imo.

When I saw the scene I thought "Aren't the file cabinets metal?  Just lock the doors on them. It will be a mess to clean up but the files should be safe."

 

If the files were digital (yeah they SHOULDVE been, but this is Arrow) then yeah her going back would've been stupid but they weren't and she didn't want all of that stuff that could help all her clients go to waste. .

MG agrees with you.  He said after the season 1 finale that there was a deleted scene that would explain to us why Laurel went to CNRI after three people (Oliver, Moira and Quentin) told her to stay away.

 

I think this is a good example of how the writers want to show one thing with Laurel and end up getting the opposite reaction.  The graveyard scene seems to be another.

[dtissagirl]

The writing does this bizarre thing with Laurel, by telling us she's always trying to save the world, except she puts random people in danger while trying to save the world. Two examples: 1. keeping the CNRI staff in the Glades instead of saving the manila folders alone herself; 2. attacking that dude who hit his girlfriend -- he could have easily gone to the girlfiend and killed her right after he beat Laurel.

Except the writing completey ignores it that she's putting people in danger.

And now she's putting Thea in consecutive triggering situations [grave-digging, NandaParbat], which for someone who is having out of control violent episodes, is the opposite of good. But still the writing doesn't see it as such.

Cognitive dissonance, it never goes away with Laurel.

[Primal Slayer]

What if she had died in the process? Where would her clients be without their attorney? What would have happened to her family & friends in grieving her?

 

I get what she was trying to do. But when QL, OQ, MQ, the emergency personnel, the media & I think ever her friend tell her to get out of the building, leave the glades - she should try to listen to one of them. And like @bkwurm1 said - when there is the evidence of immediate danger aka the building shaking, earth moving, debris loosening, it doesn't matter what's in those papers, it is not worth your life or the people who come to rescue you lives. It was impulsive and irrational what she did, but I can give her a pass because likely adrenaline probably interfered with her thought process. But it really was the start of the LL trend to do something stupid with good intentions that winds up hurting other people far worse than herself and far worse than if she had just not done the thing.

That can be said just about anyone risking their life for something. What would Starling City be without Arrow when he set off to face against Ra's just because he didn't want to turn 1 man over because of who he happened to be related to.

 

The 1x23 finale jumped from Q calling her to say goodbye to different scenes back to CNRI and the building shaking and everyone evacuating so it was hard to tell how long they waited, especially since they left Laurel in her same position from when she stepped away to talk to her father.

 

I can only hope that after this current storyline that it ends the popular trend of Laurel coming in head first and forcing her to slow down and think over things before jumping into them.

[BkWurm1]

The 1x23 finale jumped from Q calling her to say goodbye to different scenes back to CNRI and the building shaking and everyone evacuating so it was hard to tell how long they waited, especially since they left Laurel in her same position from when she stepped away to talk to her father

 

Per the countdown timer on the Earthquake machine, when he dad got off the phone with her it was only a few minutes but I was judging her the second her dad on the phone told her to get out.  She should have shouted in that second "Everybody out!" and started walking with her mobile phone toward the door.  Instead, when we come back, she is off the phone and now has more files in her grasp.  It wasn't more than a handful of minutes but even a second was too long after getting a warning from her dad who was thinking he was using one of his last remaining seconds alive to get her to get out of there.  

 

 

can only hope that after this current storyline that it ends the popular trend of Laurel coming in head first and forcing her to slow down and think over things before jumping into them.

 

One can dream.  And hope. 

[statsgirl]

The problem is that when Oliver does something risky, he risks his own life.  We've just been arguing how unforgivable it is that he kidnapped Lyla without her consent.  But when Laurel does something, the risk is to other people -- to Thea who has to go back to the place that caused her problems, to the woman whose boyfriend might have hurt her even worse if Quentin hadn't found a way to jail him, to the people at CNRI she she didn't tell to get out of the building, to Tommy who died trying to save her.

 

I think what would have made the CNRI scene better for me (other than closing the metal doors of the file cabinets and getting the hell out of there), is if Laurel made sure everyone else was safe after Moira warned them over the news long before the earthquakes started, and stayed behind herself to salvage what she could.

[Nanrad]

It's hard for me to see what Laurel doing as anything other than selfish. 

 

Here's why:

 

I lost my father seven years ago this past August a month before my 17th birthday (he'd been missing when the family was informed). It hurts to even think about him let alone talk about him and, sure, I'd consider the idea of bringing him back, but if there is a chance he might suffer more than the last time he was alive and, he was suffering then, I wouldn't do it. Because, at that point, I'd be putting my wants and needs before his rather than thinking about what was best for him. That's called love. Love is selfless (in the sense of doing what's best for someone else). How is that best for my father? How would that be best for Sara? If there is a chance that a person might be off mentally/emotionally by being thrown into that pit, that's not a chance worth taking, especially when the evidence speaks for itself. 

 

That's why trying to appeal to emotions of losing a loved one as a viewer doesn't work for me. This isn't resurrecting someone who will come out unscathed. This is resurrecting someone who WILL suffer the consequences of something they didn't ask for all because another person wanted it. That's the definition of selfish. IF you are doing something for someone, you are putting them before yourself, but Laurel isn't doing that--she is putting herself before Sara. She is even putting herself before Thea. No matter how much she wants to bring Sara back, she shouldn't have lied to Thea about it--that young woman has had enough of people lying and manipulating her. "Thea, I'm not taking you to the spa, I'm taking you to go dig up my dead sister who you killed while under the influence of your father, which set off a chain of events that eventually led to your death and resurrection that Oliver participated in. By the way, we'll be running into your dad again in Nanda Parbat (or maybe it'll be a surprise if they don't know about it)." 

 

Couldn't Laurel have simply asked Thea about this and explained that she knows this is a difficult situation for her, but she needs to do it for x, y, z reasons??? But, no, that sounds too much like common sense. This is the same woman who thought that lying to her dad about her sister being alive was a good idea because "heart condition".

 

Random question I need answered: why did Laurel dye her hair???

Second random question: Does she still have a day job???

 

The other reason this resurrection falls flat on its face is because it depends too much on the viewer's head cannon of a character's motivation. Why does Laurel want to be a vigilante? What drives her? Her motivation doesn't make a lick of sense and neither does her "reasons" for wanting to resurrection a woman who has been dead for a year. They were cordial and had warm feelings for each other because of blood, but they didn't have the greatest relationship and this was BEFORE Sara's first death. Why would Laurel want to dig up Sara's body, smuggle it out of the U.S., and then throw it in the LP, which WILL result in negative consequences. IMO, she's just finding ways to make Sara suffer MORE. And I do think there are better ways to exhume a dead body because, unless Laurel tells Quentin, which she most likely won't--not right away--the authorities will find out that the body was stolen, which it was. There is also proper handling of the body since it's been decaying for A YEAR. Like there are many things that could go wrong with amateurs digging up a body.

[AyChihuahua]

Was the thing about not having the CNRI files digitally backed-up in the comics or a deleted scene?  If in a deleted scene it doesn't count, see, e.g., the scene with Laurel at the hangar pre-NP trip.

[dtissagirl]

It was a deleted scene.

[hogwash]

But it can kinda be inferred that the files weren't digitized from the actual episode. Why else would anyone be saving files during terrorist attack? I get that the whole point was to show that Laurel is a passionate about her work at CNRI or whatever. But the whole thing made Tommy dying directly her fault. Then they made it worse early S02 by making her quit the CNRI thing and having her nonsensically blame the Hood for Tommy's death. Why would you do that to a character? Such bad choices.

 

Speaking of bad choices...I think Laurel's decision gets even dumber when you think about what kind of person Sara was. Remember when Sara argued that Roy should be killed because Mirakuru turned him into a violent, rampaging maniac? Remember when Sara tried to kill herself rather than return to the LOA? Remember when Sara came to Starling to make sure her family was OK after the Undertaking but stayed to protect people? That's the person she's doing this to. There's no way you can argue that Sara would have wanted this (Oliver's decision was under a very different circumstances). Again, it makes Laurel come off very selfish. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm a lawyer, and everything important is digitized, with tons of backups off-site .  So as far as I'm concerned she was just a moron, which is pretty in-character for her.

[hogwash]

Yeah, I remember when I first watched it I couldn't figure out what the crap any of them were doing there after what Moira told them. It was dumb pretense. 

[Starfish35]

So.....okay. This post is going to come with a (probably) Unpopular Opinion Alert.

For the past few days I've been trying to figure out why I really don't have a problem with this whole thing. People who know me here know that I am the furthest thing from a Laurel fan, so it's not about defending her. So I hope you'll bear with me as I put down some thoughts. I'm not sure I have this totally worked out in my head, but here goes. (I hope my browser doesn't eat this before I get it posted.)

I'll admit up front that there's probably some bias at work here. As a Sara fan, I want Sara back, period, so from that perspective it's hard for me to see Laurel wanting her sister back as wrong or selfish. Beyond that, I don't think there's something wrong with wanting someone back from the dead, especially if it was someone who died tragically before their time. If there was some way to bring someone back, without consequences, I would not fault someone for taking that action. Dead is not better than alive, for many people, and I do not see wanting a loved one to not be dead as inherently selfish. And I don't think Sara is better off dead, personally. Again, bias admitted, but to me, the fact that she's been through some terrible things in her life is not reason enough to not bring her back, if you could. Sara is not better off dead. I have a hard time with that idea.

The catch is the consequences. And I guess here is where the selfishness comes into it. Are you willing to have them back at any cost? To yourself, to them, to others?

However, I guess I don't see what Laurel's doing as selfishness, so much as arrogance. The selfishness comes in with how she's treating Thea, but I think Laurel truly believes that, within a couple of hours of finding out this thing exists, that she can fix Thea, bring back Sara, and be home in time for dinner. It's kind of amazing how remarkably consistent they've (unintentionally?) been with some of Laurel's worst qualities, and arrogance is one of them. She seems to always have this firm belief in the rightness of her own actions, and even when those actions bring things crashing down on her, it never seems to make her think twice about not charging in and doing the next thing that comes into her mind. She rushes in and tries to save the files at CNRI, at what cost to the people around her. When that comes crashing down on her, she blames the Arrow, and charges ahead with hunting him down in spite of what anyone else tries to tell her, until that too comes crashing down on her. She attacks a man in a hospital bed and nearly gets shot. She goes after a man with a baseball bat and gets beat up. She charges in to be a vigilante in spite of everything, and nearly dies. Laurel always thinks she knows the best way to handle anything no matter what anyone else says.

Laurel also has what I see as a savior complex. The whole "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world." I think the show is trying to tell us that's a good thing, but it's not a good thing the way it's been presented. It ties into the arrogance thing. Laurel wants to save Thea and Sara, which isn't bad in and of itself, but the arrogance comes in when she thinks she knows better how to do that than anyone else, and without taking their feelings (Thea's in this case) about it into consideration. Like going after the wife beater with the baseball bat.

I guess because of those things, it doesn't seem strange or out of character for Laurel to be doing exactly what she's doing. Laurel's savior complex is pushing her to save Thea and Sara, and her arrogance is blocking out anything that would tell her that this might not turn out just the way she's already predetermined it in her head that it's going to work out.

And I guess for me, this is nothing shocking or unexpected. This is, in fact, exactly what I expected Laurel to do. I would think it wildly OOC for anyone else, except possibly Damien Dark, but it just fits Laurel exactly. And because I expected nothing less from her, I guess I just can't be outraged about it. (True, I didn't expect her to do it with visible proof of the side effects in front of her, but....it's Laurel.)

And honestly, there are things she's done that have made me rage a whole lot more. (Not saying that they are objectively worse, but that they pushed my buttons in ways that made them worse for me.) Throwing a wineglass at her just-back-from-the-dead sister (oh the irony). Stealing her father's pain meds. Dressing up as her dead sister to fool her father. Right now, I think my biggest issue with the whole thing is not that she's doing it, but that she very likely will not suffer any serious consequences from it. At that point, yeah, then I will probably board the rage train with everyone else. But for now, this is just Laurel doing what Laurel does.

Anyway. That's my thoughts.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

It is very Laurel, I agree completely.

I don't think my outrage comes from surprise or even disgust specifically at what's she's doing but as you say the arrogance behind it and knowing once again the show is going to just skate right over Laurels very poor decision making skills.

I'm preemptively annoyed.

But then stupidity pisses me off. I'm still not sure why Laurel went from finding out the pit saved a gravely injured Thea to it can resurrect rotting corpses. Why did Laurel even make that knpind of mental leap? She's correct but given what little she knows, it shouldn't have been something she felt certain enough to actually go ahead and did up that body.

[HighwayFlower]

It would have made more sense for her to leave Sara where she was and go with Thea to talk to Nyssa first.

And even if it comes out that Sara was not in a better place, Laurel would not have known that so she won't get a pass from me if that happens.

I never liked Laurel, so it's almost amusing to me how bad the show messed this up.

[KirkB]

I agree completely. I'm not as outraged by it as a lot of people because it's exactly what I would expect Laurel to do. She gets an idea in her head and runs with it regardless of the consequences. And it's also consistent with how Laurel has been presented so far. I used to think it was the show runners not liking Laurel and so constantly having her make selfish, hot-headed decisions, but now I think what they're actually trying to do is show her evolving from the kind of person who acts first and thinks later and puts her own needs ahead of others into a team player and a hero, they're just doing a lot of the first and haven't quite gotten around to the second part of the equation yet.

[KenyaJ]

I'm a lawyer, and everything important is digitized, with tons of backups off-site .  So as far as I'm concerned she was just a moron, which is pretty in-character for her.

 

Seriously. Even pro bono legal organizations who work on shoestring budgets have their records digitized. CNRI was basically committing legal malpractice by having their records only on paper with no offsite backup. I can't.

[catrox14]

I'm not surprised at all by Laurel's decision. That is mutually exclusive from being "outraged" by her decision. It is very typical Laurel: selfish, arrogant and reckless leading to a stupid nonsensical action.

Edited October 19, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

I agree completely. I'm not as outraged by it as a lot of people because it's exactly what I would expect Laurel to do. She gets an idea in her head and runs with it regardless of the consequences. And it's also consistent with how Laurel has been presented so far. I used to think it was the show runners not liking Laurel and so constantly having her make selfish, hot-headed decisions, but now I think what they're actually trying to do is show her evolving from the kind of person who acts first and thinks later and puts her own needs ahead of others into a team player and a hero, they're just doing a lot of the first and haven't quite gotten around to the second part of the equation yet.

 

 

Emphasis mine.

 

That's the precise problem I am having with this. I am very much concerned that this decision she is making to resurrect Sara when she has in information to know that this is really probably, very likely, almost certainly, 99.99999999999% going to fuck up Sara mentally but she's doing it anyway will be a heroic act in the end. And that is where my "outrage" comes from mostly.

 

Unless they go totally off book with Laurel and have her exhange her life or her soul for Sara's, this is not a heroic or loving act or even one born of utter desperation because she just is so distraught and messed up a year later that she'll consider it. 

 

They haven't done NEARLY enough of a good WHY for me to do anything but throw my hands up and say, GO AWAY LAUREL.

[Starfish35]

Bringing KC discussion over from the Relationships thread:

Just an FYI, it was not a DUI. She was a passenger. It was for underage drinking when she was 20. Giving the name of someone else is a bad idea but it was 8 years ago.

Yeah that's what I read in the link posted. For some reason I'd always had the impression it was a DUI. But as you say it was eight years ago. I'm not saying it has anything to do with now. We were just talking about why she was written off SPN, and I was saying I'd gotten the impression this incident might have had something to do with it. Which may or may not be accurate - I have no idea.

[BkWurm1]

One way or the other, giving someone else's name is concerning, it's just I find DUI's sooooooo much worse so I wanted to clarify for those that might not click the link.   I remember a couple actors over on Lost were killed off (characters) because of getting DUI's.  So who knows.   

Edited October 20, 2015 by BkWurm1

[lexicon]

I think it kind of serves her right to open the casket and see her sister's rotting corpse.  Hopefully she'll have nightmares for the rest of her life for this.

 

Nope this is Laurel Lance, Tefllon Princess, nothing sticks to her. Someone else will end up getting em and then Daddy Lance will blame Oliver. That's the natural order of things on Arrow

[Carrie Ann]

From the spoiler thread, but not spoiler-y:

 

But Laurel won't listen... Because she is selfish and stubborn. Are we sure the writers don't hate her?

 

Here's my take on this, after last week. Clearly, the writers don't hate Laurel, but I don't think the writers like writing Laurel. I think they like having the Black Canary on their show, and maybe they like writing "badass" moments, but I don't think they get excited about writing Laurel scenes. Obviously it's just speculation, and I swear I'm not trying to be a jerk, but just based on how they treat her and how they talk about her and the lack of life in her scenes, I just don't see any interest there. I don't think they take time to think about her as a character in all dimensions, or about defining a voice for her. So she's written as a cipher, and then it's up to KC to add the nuance.

 

For that reason, in the current situation, Laurel is really just a plot-propelling tool. They want to bring Sara back, and hey, that gives Laurel something to do! But they don't take a minute to think about how to go about that, in order to show some sort of character growth or really define Laurel. Again, unless they're TRYING to show her as self-centered, unwilling to listen, etc., then this is unintentional, and that to me says they just can't be bothered to care about or even consider Laurel as a character outside of her costume. So I hope they're not disappointed when some viewers can't be bothered either.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[statsgirl]

I agree completely. I'm not as outraged by it as a lot of people because it's exactly what I would expect Laurel to do. She gets an idea in her head and runs with it regardless of the consequences. And it's also consistent with how Laurel has been presented so far. I used to think it was the show runners not liking Laurel and so constantly having her make selfish, hot-headed decisions, but now I think what they're actually trying to do is show her evolving from the kind of person who acts first and thinks later and puts her own needs ahead of others into a team player and a hero, they're just doing a lot of the first and haven't quite gotten around to the second part of the equation yet.

 

I think the writing can still save this if sometime before pitting Sara, they give her a scene where she actually stops and listens to what other people are saying and briefly wonders if she's doing the right thing. She will still decide to go ahead and pit Sara because Plot! but it they're going to evolve her into a team player, they have to show baby steps at least.

 

I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

[writersblock51]

Well, the clip of Laurel and Nyssa confirms my fears about this - having been warned, yet again, by someone who still calls Sara her 'beloved', that the pit is a BAD IDEA, we know Laurel goes ahead with it anyway.  She might not have known all of the risks before she dug up the body and hauled it to Nanda Parbat, but Nyssa is pretty much the only person to witness the long term usage and their effects on someone she lived and worked with.  Nyssa brings this all up to Laurel, who looks... I'm not sure how she looks, I honestly can't tell much from her expressions but I'd like to think Laurel is contemplative.

 

Laurel is a lawyer, with a lot of education, has worked with facts, cause/effects, and the results of bad decisions that people make.  And that's just her JOB.  Yet she's still consistently compulsive and irresponsibile.  Where has the growth been for her to manage her impulses better?  Has she learned so little from the past 3 years?

 

A side note to all of this madness, for me, is that she is soooooooooooo sad about Sara and still grieving.  I don't buy that it's out of sisterly love alone.  If the show tries to now tell us that they were close, that's a big retcon.  They weren't close - not a teens and certainly not as adults.  Did they love each other?  In some ways, yes.  I think they grew to love, respect and forgive each other.  But I still firmly believe that Laurel's 'grief' is based more on feeling guilty than a deep sisterly love.

 

She has taken up Sara's life, knowing that it's probably NOT what Sara would have wanted her to do.  Quentin and Oliver have told her that.  Repeatedly.

 

As for the writers... I think they struggle with writing for the character and have from the pilot.  I think Laurel, even on paper, was going to be a hard sell in some ways.  Her boyfriend cheated on her with her sister then they both died; her plans of law school, marriage and a white picket fence and house were gone.  She'd been a fool.  Then Oliver comes back.  I'm not sure there was a lot of room for them to work things out to stick to some part of comic book canon after that questionable backstory.  But her anger was justified and then... ?  She's been a struggle to write for, I would think.

 

And I do think the show has issues with Katie Cassidy.  We might not hear about any of it until the series is over.  But I'm pretty confident that there are behind the scenes stuff that adds to the problem of writing for her and the character.

Edited October 21, 2015 by writersblock51

[foreverevolving]

[Edited by mod]

 

Talking about other fans (on Twitter or otherwise) makes Ragey Baby ragey.

Edited October 20, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[kismet]

I think some of the problems with writing the LL character exist from the fact that she is a failed LI. Its not that being a LI would have been her only plot. But being a LI allows for character growth for both people with the relationship. Without being in a relationship with OQ, there is no foil for LL to repair or soften some of her character flaws. I think the writers imagined writing LL to be a headstrong, think before she acts, over-confident & slightly self-absorbed woman. However, eventually when OQ & her got back together - they could balance out some of their harshness.

 

The problem is that never happened. And rather than fixing the problem they have exasperated it and have yet to find another character to soften the blow of LL's character traits. They have had possible LIs to replace TM, but they have chosen to not write them that way. They haven't even bothered to find/cast one in s4 from what it seems. I would actively subscribe to the theory that BC & LL are two different characters in the writers' room. They have failed to write LL and in many ways are done with her character. They really haven't given LL a plot of her own since s2a, even s3 was all about the BC. So now they have their BC who they can add to their action & live out their comic fantasies, but they are stuck with LL. So now they use LL for plot. If it impacts her character I'm not sure it matters to them, so long as she can still suit up for the action scenes.

 

Disclaimer - I'm not saying that LL or any female character need a LI to have productive storylines. I'm just saying in this scenario, the writers had written LL one way in hopes of using a LI to change/evolve her character. When that plan fell through they had and/or pursued no alternative ways of correcting the course they took with the character.

Edited October 20, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

I think lots of characters on Arrow have grown outside of having a love interest.  Thea's growth in s3 was without a love interest, Diggle grew even before he got together again with Lyla and most of Roy's growth was in 2B and s3 all alone unless you think of Oliver as standing in for his love interest.  Moira grew after Walter walked out on her.

 

There's lots of room for character growth for Laurel stemming from this Sara story if they play it right (i.e. Laurel realizes what she did wrong and takes a step toward being a team player).  No love interest necessary.

[foreverevolving]

Which is why killing Sara was a bad idea!

They could have used her to be that foil and have her truly end up being Laurel one true love, which could have even helped Laurel Journey to the mask if Sara was there to train her, first just because Laurel is sick of being kidnapped, and than slowly show us Laurel growing to appreciate what Sara and Oliver do have her want to learn more and more different ways, and than after a year or so going into season 4 they could have had Rip come in and take Sara with him, which would have left a female hero space for Laurel to decide to step up and fill. or something like that. 

[writersblock51]

Also - I don't think Laurel's role on the show became worthless when she was no longer Oliver's LI.  I think the show had a chance to reinvent her, though, and I think that's where some of the struggle was.  But they must have known that when the wrote the first bunch of episodes?  Maybe not?

Edited October 20, 2015 by writersblock51

[kismet]

I think lots of characters on Arrow have grown outside of having a love interest.  Thea's growth in s3 was without a love interest, Diggle grew even before he got together again with Lyla and most of Roy's growth was in 2B and s3 all alone unless you think of Oliver as standing in for his love interest.  Moira grew after Walter walked out on her.

 

There's lots of room for character growth for Laurel stemming from this Sara story if they play it right (i.e. Laurel realizes what she did wrong and takes a step toward being a team player).  No love interest necessary.

I agree, one does not need a LI to have character growth which is what I said in my disclaimer :)

 

But I don't think the writers think that way when they write LL. In s1 she was the LI. In s2 she was the failed LI. In s3 she took over the former LI's mask. And in s4 she is resurrecting said former LI. I just believe the writers do NOT think of LL outside of the LI box, which is why her growth as an actual character has stalled. They had pigeon holed her character and didn't know what to do with her once she no longer fit the box they had made for her.

 

They haven't invested any time into her character growth once they moved her officially out of the LI role in s2. Which is why it is 2 seasons later and most of her non-masked scenes are on the cutting room floor. While her major storylines have been done for plot purposes. We need to give QL a reason to have a major chase scene in the last part of s3, have LL lie to him even though in s1&2, they were super close and would not outright lie to each other. We need to resurrect SL, have LL do it - even though a lot of other people could do it and it would make more sense if they did it & LL played a role in rescuing her sister.

 

IDK, we on this forum have spent pages over the summer discussing how the writers could have in the past, present or future improved LL's character. It doesn't seem like the writers have spent as much time as we have. I really thought they might this season now that O/F are officially on. But it doesn't seem like that is the case. Even KC was obsessed about being & not being a LI, which makes me think a lot of how they prepared for and sold the character was by it being primarily a LI. If she is not a LI, then what is she? Its been 2 years ~ I'm not sure TPTB have answered that question. And I don't think this SL storyline will amount to anything but the same old LL being LL. They could have made it something special, but every indicator from 402 to the spoilers have indicated that it will not be about character growth.

Edited October 21, 2015 by kismet

[looptab]

 

And I do think the show has issues with Katie Cassidy.  We might not hear about any of it until the series is over.  But I'm pretty confident that there are behind the scenes stuff that adds to the problem of writing for her and the character.

What makes you think so? 

 

Totally silly aside: I may be wrong, but didn't it look like she had considerably less rings last season, and now they're back in full force?

[tangerine95]

I agree a huge part of the problem with LL is that she failed as LI in season 1.That's what she was cast to be and IMO they were thinking of her as LI a lot more then as future BC or they would have actually given her some training she needed to sell her as BC in the future instead of constantly making her a damsel for Oliver to save.

Once she was moved from the LI spot her relevance to Oliver and with that the whole show just became less and less.You can take out her story from both season 2 and season 3 and it makes no difference.The final nail in the coffin for the character was when they brought in Sara as Canary and gave her all that focus and most of the BC story Laurel was supposed to have.Now she's forever compared to Sara and it doesn't do her any favors at all.

I don't think they can fix that or find her a spot in Oliver's life or on the show that won't feel redundant.On the team she's just another fighter out of 4 and in Oliver's life there are at least 3 people he cares about more and who contibute to his character development in all the ways Laurel never has.Even if they become better friends Laurel is still too far down the list of people close to Oliver and IMO it won't help make her relevant.Whatever they do with Laurel would feel like a different show because she's so far removed from Oliver even now when they're on the same team.

Edited October 21, 2015 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

I agree that her failure in the LI narrative role highly influenced the writers after they removed her from the position. Not because I think she needed to be LI to be developed, but because the writing has gone out of its way to keep Laurel completely separated from Oliver's story. Since 201. Two full seasons of her having minimal influence in the plot points related to Oliver, that's not coincidental. It's a choice they made in the writers room that she doesn't pertain to Oliver's story.

 

I'm actually morbidly curious if they'll give any common on-going plot/storyline to Laurel and Oliver after the Sara resurrection plot is resolved.

Edited October 21, 2015 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

But why did they chose this road? I mean, it could have been made clear she no longer was the LI without completely isolate her, no? Couldn't they find another way?

[tangerine95]

I think a big part of the choice to isolate her was the fact that she had no chemistry with Oliver.That doesn't affect just romantic scenes,even as friends they're just not compeling to say the least.Also they needed to totally destory their relationship and actually write it as toxic in season 2 so that didn't allow her to be included in Oliver's story.So they focused on other relationships for Oliver that worked a lot better like Dig and Felicity.

Tbh I think they were required to make her BC and keep her on the show because of contractual reasons and whatever bts stuff was going on.There's just no other explanation for me as to why they always chose the worst thing for Laurel when that's not the case with other characters most of the time.

[dtissagirl]

But why did they chose this road? I mean, it could have been made clear she no longer was the LI without completely isolate her, no? Couldn't they find another way?

 

I think THEY think they found another way, by keeping Laurel's story in the side lane, never really crossing over to Oliver's. Also, I think we're not really supposed to realize Laurel and Oliver don't have a common storyline. Or maybe it's worse, and the writers themselves don't realize it? It's not like they've realized a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

Furthermore:

 

- The EPs probably got burned hard. I bet there was a lot of yelling involved. The CW doesn't like it when the audience hates their leading female character. I mean. The EPs had a whole 5-year hero's journey plan for Laurel/Oliver that not only didn't work, but it didn't work from the very start. They were looking for LI replacements as early as Helena. And it's not like they could sideline Oliver, so reducing Laurel's importance to the narrative was their solution.

 

- The chemistry problem, that @tangerine95 already mentioned. Also, it really does take one studio executive being super bothered by their lack of chemistry for the note they sent after S1 to read "keep Laurel and Oliver scenes to a minimum". And then the writing starts from that directive. Which, I have no idea if they were ever told to do this, but nonetheless, they have been consistently doing it for two seasons + 2 episodes now.

 

- Then there was the turning Laurel into BC problem. At some point, I figure they realized that Black Canary could not happen under Green Arrow's tutelage, because that's offensive on every level. She's not his sidekick in the comics, she's a better fighter than him in the comics, she's lead her own teams for decades longer than he did. Which is a problem when the show is not about her. The solution they found was to get Oliver completely out of the equation mid S3, so that Laurel could become BC without it being subordinate to Oliver's journey in any way. Which on one hand, helped keep the L/O scenes to a minimum [yay consistency?], but the main side effect is that they're both superheroes now, they're on the same team, and... they don't interact much either in masks or without, other than action scenes. Which are fluff and don't add character development nor deepen their relationship.

[looptab]

I'm sure I've probably already expressed this some other time, but I'd really like to know what was their original plan like, had Lauriver succeeded, Especially regarding Black Canary. They wrote themselves in a corner from the very start, it'd have been so much simpler had they met later, and not have this backstory.

[Sakura12]

Or given Sara's story to Laurel. It would've been Oliver watching the love of his life die twice (with no sister cheating), then she came back alive and trained a fighter. She had her own baggage and couldn't stay for long periods of time. That would've given us a season of Oliver not knowing about her, then a season of them fighting side by side and a season where she could only show up every once awhile.

 

That storyline would've been much worthy of the Black Canary name. She would've been trained even better than him from the LOA and would've been connected to Oliver's story enough but also separate enough to be her own hero like the BC is supposed to be. 

[kismet]

I'm sure I've probably already expressed this some other time, but I'd really like to know what was their original plan like, had Lauriver succeeded, Especially regarding Black Canary. They wrote themselves in a corner from the very start, it'd have been so much simpler had they met later, and not have this backstory.

I'm curious too. There are a lot of things I can't wait for the reunion show to come out and for people to be honest. LL and the development of her character is definitely one of those topics. I could brainstorm some ideas of what they might have done. But honestly, I am so tired of talking about LL, specifically about how she could have been different (and most likely better). Frankly, her character has become such wasted potential. I either get really irritated or really bummed that they made so many wrong choices about her character.

[tangerine95]

I don't think Laurel played by Katie Cassidy had any potential at all on this show.The way KC plays her is a huge part of why she failed.Another better actress that had chemistry with SA and was convincing as BC would have potential and could have elevated the material.

I think if Lauriver had worked they would have tied her BC arc with Oliver and would have probably started her training earlier.I don't think they would avoided having him train her at least a some of the time and she would probably have been his second in command on the team.Pretty much what they did with Sara and Oliver only the relationship would have been more serious.IMO they did their GA/BC story with Sara because they realized they can never do it with Laurel and it needed to be played out before they went all in with Olicity.

[dtissagirl]

I think if Lauriver had worked they would have tied her BC arc with Oliver and would have probably started her training earlier.I don't think they would avoided having him train her at least a some of the time and she would probably have been his second in command on the team.

 

ITA. I think it L/O had worked, they would have been able to get away with making BC's journey subordinate to GA's. And if the actors had had explosive chemistry, it would have been a whole lot easier to get away with it too.

 

Malcolm would have stayed dead in S1. Tommy would turn evil, and he'd be both Oliver and Laurel's top #1 nemesis, which would have tied them as superheroes as well as romantically.

 

And maybe they would have killed Thea in the S1 finale, to jumpstart Oliver's no-kill rule. Tommy becoming evil could've been used to jumpstart Laurel's training.

 

I wouldn't have watched that show [sounds insanely boring to me], but it would have looked like a show that gave a crap about Laurel becoming BC.

Edited October 21, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Chaser]

The unofficial title of the Laurel Lance thread: Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda...

[Primal Slayer]

If they had a specific plan they didn't seem to inform Katie on it since we probably would've heard about it. I'm glad that she has talked about her disappointments with her character during S2. I'm already ready for that Lifetime Unauthorized Biopic: Arrow.

[KirkB]

I think I've said this before but I also think it bears repeating. The casting of KC may have been an issue from the start (I have absolutely nothing to base this on, I just have a feeling it was the network and not the Arrow people who chose her, hence why she and SA were apparently not chem-tested) but I think the larger issue is that Sara Lance should never have existed. That would have avoided the sister swapping in the first place, which as far as I am aware NOBODY liked. It should have been Laurel on the Gambit with Oliver, Laurel who got washed out to sea and found by Nyssa (with or without the relationship), Laurel who was trained by the LoA and came back to Starling as the badass Black Canary. Now would KC have been able to handle all that? YMMV but I have my doubts. From a narrative standpoint however I think things would have gone so much better.

Edited October 22, 2015 by KirkB

[thuganomics85]

While I don't think I will ever really like Laurel, at least this season she's actually providing unintentional humor.  The whole "resurrect Sara" story is just so silly, but man, is it cracking me up.  I just wish they went full-blown wacky and it was more like this:

 

(Nanda Parbat)

Laurel: I have my sister's corpse here, that I somehow smuggled through customs and security.  Bring her back, now!

Malcolm: Um... how about no?  I mean, if we could just use the Pit that easily, don't you think I would have resurrected Tommy?  Or maybe even my wife?  I may be evil, but I would totally do that, if I knew my family wouldn't come back as blood-thirsty demons.

Laurel: Whatever, you suck.  My girl Nyssa knows what is up, right?!
Nyssa: Laurel, come on!  I visited her grave in Episode 4, when she was still fresh!  Wouldn't that have been the best time to do it?  The fact that I didn't and I'm one of the sanest characters on this show, is a pretty big warning sign.

Laurel: You are so lame, Nyssa!  Lets just do this, Thea!

Thea: Laurel, I'm glad to be alive and everything, but remember, I'm kind of a bit blood-lusty now, and I was only "mostly dead", Princess Bride style.  Who knows what would happen if she is fully dead?  Lets at least think about it for a few days.

Laurel: E tu, Thea?!  E tu?!

(Laurel's phone rings.  She picks it up)

Barry: Hi, Laurel, it's Barry Allen!  I heard about what you are trying to do, and I just wanted to say that I tried resurrecting a dead relative too, and it didn't quite work out.  Granted, our situations are very different in a lot of ways, but you should still be cautious.  If not, you could end up like me and getting your crush's boyfriend killed, as well as your friend's fiancée, who kind of looks like he could be related to Oliver Queen, and have Victor Garber currently flaming and stroking out.  If I don't figure that shit out, all the former Alias fans will totally be out for my blood.  So, maybe try and think this through.

Laurel: Whatever, kid. 

(hours later)

Malcolm: OK, changed my mind.  But only because I want to have Thea like me again!

Thea: How is this suppose to be make me like...

Laurel: Agreed!  No take backs!

(lowering Sara into the pool)

Nyssa: The fuck, Laurel!  Even if you are ignoring my fair points, could you at least give a fair warning to me?  She was the love of my life, after-all.

Laurel: Eh, you're not married, so your not family!
Nyssa: Really thought you were more progressive then this, Laurel.  You and my dad might have actually gotten along really well...

(After-math)

Laurel: You're back!  Daddy will be happy!  And will now make me the favorite daughter, since I saved the other one's life!

Sara: SARA SMASH!  KILL!!  RWARRRR!"

Laurel: Oh, Sara.  You're being so silly!  Snap out of it!

Thea and Malcolm: .......................

 

Can't wait till next week!

(New Lair)

Laurel: Hey, guys!  Guess what I did?!!!

Sara: EVERYONE WILL DIE!!!

Oliver:........ What the hell, Laurel?!
Laurel: Quit being a party pooper!

Felicity: She doesn't look right!

Laurel: Shut up, Glasses!
Diggle: Looking past what you actually did, can I just point out that you were just telling us we need to quit lying to one another and then you go and pull this shit?  Spa day my ass!

Laurel: You know the rules don't apply to me, Dig!

(somewhere deep, dark in the NBC cancellation pile, where dead shows are stored.)

John Constantine: Bloody hell!  What did these wankers do over there?!  I guess I need to head over to The CW, and try to fix this shit!

Edited October 23, 2015 by thuganomics85

[calliope1975]

Brilliant, thuganomics!

[dtissagirl]

[yellowfred]

I have to admit, the ridiculousness of the way they've been writing Laurel this season is a lot easier to enjoy now that I'm not constantly thinking "they killed Sara for this."