Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[tennisgurl]

I was just re-watching The Flash, and I`m still amazed at how different Laurel was on that show, as opposed to this one. Katie Cassidy seemed so much lighter and happier. Her smile just lit up her whole face when she was with Cisco. She just seemed so much more relaxed and human in this episode. I don't know why we don't get that as much on Arrow. I know Flash is a lighter show, but even in her lighter scenes, Laurel never seems that warm and cheerful. Honestly, if they wrote her more like that, I would like her a lot more. Not that she has to be miss perky sunshine, but at least being less stiff all the time. 

[statsgirl]

 

The problem is that Oliver/Stephen (cannot tell you which) acts like he can't stand her. He finds her presence exhausting. He doesn't have lingering affection for her. He doesn't want bad things to happen to her, but he doesn't want her around. Ever. He doesn't like it when she is around. And I don't get the sense that this is part of a relationship evolution and they're working back around to friendship. These people, who never felt like they could ever have been friends, do not get on at all, not for adversarial sexy reasons but for genuine *ugh, her* reasons.

It's funny how different viewers see things differently.  I'm involved in a back-and-forth at one of the TV review sites with someone who hates Olicity because she sees it only as a bump in the road and because Oliver has to sleep with every woman in his orbit. She's convinced that he will return to Laurel not because she likes Laurel but because they obviously had a plan or else they wouldn't have put Dinah Laurel Lance on a Green Arrow show and so Oliver/Felicity is a waste of time and her intelligence. Nothing I say will convince her otherwise.

 

I think the reason that Laurel gets very little attention for season three is that they no longer have any idea what to do with her. Once Felicity took over as the main love interest, they apparently forgot to create a new position for Laurel. So if there wasn't a hero journey  happening, Laurel became obsolete.

Ironically, there would have been for Sara because Sara can fight. And there would have been for Laurel if they had let her stay the lawyer that Team Arrow needs.  I think the problem is that they are still tied to their Laurel/BC vision even though they can see there are huge problems with it.

 

One thing they should have done for Laurel this season is to tie her more to Thea, who no longer has any female figures in her life now that Moira is dead and Raisa is running a hospital on ABC.  If they had stopped their headlong rush to make Laurel BC long enough to build a relationship with Thea, who she would have known from childhood, it would have given her another role on the show.. 

 

I don't think she would necessarily need a love interest to be relevant to the show.  The  Law & Order characters rarely had love interests (Jill Hennessy said that she didn't know her character was supposed to be in a relationship with Sam Waterson's character till she got the script for her last episode) and many of the CSI characters had either one shot or recurring love interests.  But what they did need is a storyline for her that was both interesting and fit into the show overall (unlike the addiction arc) and that's what they failed to come up with.

 

If they really knew Laurel/KC wasn't going to work as the love interest as early as many of you think they did - that is the path they should have taken with her.  Plus I think killing Tommy was a huge mistake to the story period. MM should have died in Tommy's arms,

The problem is that that would have mirrored the Spiderman movies.  The EPs seem to have no problem ripping off Batman, but Spiderman is out of bounds.  Or maybe back in season 1 they still had enough storylines that they didn't need to copy any movies.

 

I think they still could have made it work if Tommy's death was what spurred her to look for vengeance, first in the law and then when that didn't work, outside of the law as a vigilante, maybe taught by Sara on one of her trips back from the LoA.

 

I think the problem is that the EPs fell too much in love with the big picture and forgot how to put Laurel into it. Someone should have been assigned responsibility for Laurel's story.  Even a junior writer would have done.

 

I don't suscribe to the idea that the writers don't like Laurel. I think they don't know how to write the characters they truly love. They see those characters with their fanboys/fangirls eyes, lack distance, so they lack judgement and everything they do backfire.

 

I think this is it.  They have a vision in their heads and when viewers don't react the way they expect, they don't know what to do.

 

I think the PR push is not because they they value her more than other actors/characters but because she needs it more than the others.  Even a hint of more Diggle and viewers are clamoring for the episode.

[BkWurm1]

What if they use the good ol' amnesia after that, and set him back to his island Laurel photo gazing phase?

 

 

Happy Harpy, even if that absolutely happened, the way this season has been framed I'd just assume Laurel  was just the next bump in the road like Ray was in season three.  I don't think anyone watching would expect anything different.

 

From a few pages back:

The fact that they both acted like Sara was going on cruise vacation and not going back to a life of killing people, made me angry at both of them.

 

I've gone back and rewatched that scene and I realized that Sara and Quentin were a lot more subdued than I had realized.  I got very caught up in a grinning Laurel and was blinded to see all the worry and concern on Quentin's face.  Laurel could have done her lines along the same way as PB but she went a different way.  If you go back and watch, it's like Laurel is in a different show than Sara and her dad.  IMO

 

But....geez, couldn't the director have, y'know, done his job and TOLD KC not to smile and to try a different acting tactic?

 

In movies, the director is the man in charge of shaping the vision and making sure everything works.  I'm coming to the conclusion that in TV it frequently doesn't work like that. To start with, at best a director only does a handful of episode for the show a year, usually a lot less.  They are handed a script and hopefully filled in on where the character's relationships are, but from comments MG has made and interviews with a number of TV directors, the job seems more about getting in there and just making sure what's scripted is filmed in almost an assembly line kind of mentality.  There frequently doesn't seem to be time for much artistic input from the director. 

 

Cleary some directors are better than others and MAKE time to see their visions come to life but it's the actors and all the operators of the cameras and equipment that are on their home turf.  If the actor who is a regular insists on one way, is the director who maybe there only once that year really going to butt heads like that?

 

The director it seems to me has a great deal less power in a TV episode.  I think most shows would greatly benefit if they could get the same director every week but I don't think the turn around time for episodes allows for that so my second request would be just have a few directors take turns but again, the reality seems to be much more out of their control.  Like they take who they can get most of the time and sometimes when they have big episodes or are attempting to shot something complicated, call up someone specifically experienced in whatever they are after. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

I expect we will see a lot of Laurel in 3.21 (cause of Nyssa) and a fair amount in 3.22 before I expect the pattern to hold and not a lot of her character in 3.23 - they do have to tie up Laurel's issues with her dad (or vice versa) and we'll probably see her in fight scenes along the line  but otherwise she doesn't have a lot of reason to be a part of the final Ra's showdown. 

 

So that brings me to the question of next year.  I agree that if Laurel is to be BC she needs to not be Oliver's sidekick and that only happens if she stays off his regular team and has her own learning experiences.   I expect she will get a lot of training over the hiatus and at this point as long as she keeps working with a top notch teacher like Nyssa, I could believe growth.  But being able to fight doesn't give her much to do.  Roy was always out at Oliver's side but he frequently didn't do much more than stand in the background.  Laurel can't do that since she won't even be on the regular team to stand in the background.

 

Assuming the season wraps up this LoA storyline with Oliver, I expect Laurel to be the one next year on some kind of island with her own storyline.  Perhaps tied into the next big bad? 

 

Otherwise her story is out putting on a mask every once and awhile?  Not only does that not do much for character, but that's mostly her stunt double anyway.  I hope we don't lose Quentin.  Laurel needs him to humanize her ( assuming they can mend their relationship,)  Otherwise, yeah, tie her to the overreaching plot before it intersects with Oliver and Co.  She can have some conversations with Thea or Felicity but would she have much of a storyline with them? 

 

I don't think she NEEDS a love interest but it would make sense for her to have one at this point.  It's been almost two years since Tommy died.  PLEASE let them do a chem test with whoever because while there might have been ideas about Wildcat, it was clear in their first conversation that was NOT happening.  I'd actually like then to bring in a love interest for her cause maybe I'd like his character and that would help me find interest in watching Laurel on the screen .  That could go wrong though, I was so bored by Blood and the other guy she almost seemed like she was going to date but didn't.    Blood got interesting to me pretty much only right before he died. 

[FurryFury]

Maybe they'll hook her up with 

this Damian Darhk character, whomever he is

[Pyramid]

I think you're all doing Laurel a disservice. Remember she now has a totes awesome and in no way ridiculous Canary Cry.

[ostentatious]

It's funny how different viewers see things differently.  I'm involved in a back-and-forth at one of the TV review sites with someone who hates Olicity because she sees it only as a bump in the road and because Oliver has to sleep with every woman in his orbit. She's convinced that he will return to Laurel not because she likes Laurel but because they obviously had a plan or else they wouldn't have put Dinah Laurel Lance on a Green Arrow show and so Oliver/Felicity is a waste of time and her intelligence. Nothing I say will convince her otherwise.

Some people are blind to narrative. Like, there is literally no way the show can walk back Olicity. And I don't think anyone is arguing that they had a plan for L/O going in. You can tell by the way the producers have said "we had a plan going in." You can tell that plan changed by watching the show, and also the way the producers have said "you have to have a plan going in, but you have to be willing to change that plan."

But I don't buy that this isn't about L/O for her, because if she was just rationally processing things, Olicity wouldn't bother her. If it's just a bump in the road, considering it a waste of time is like...is the entire series a waste of time if Oliver ends up changed from how we met him?

[tarotx]

I think it's what they should do. The origial BC used to go under cover and even our version had a small link to the Vilian in both S1 and s2. When I heard about Nyssa and Laurel bonding and training together, I thought we would get a twist and Nyssa would be the season big bad. Just for the Laurel link If nothing else. I didn't know about evil Ollie yet.

Maybe they'll hook her up with

this Damian Darhk character, whomever he is

[tarotx]

I also think perhaps Felicity will be killed and Oliver will link with Laurel somehow. I doubt Oliver will have a happy ever after in this show. He'll morn felicity But the show will end with a perhaps for the comic GA/BC fans.

[lexicon]

And for goodness sake, give this girl a boyfriend and pair her up primarily with Thea and Felicity.  I know people don't want to see Felicity "propping" Laurel, but I think this show could benefit from some real female friendship.  I want every single moment Laurel is on my screen to be a positive experience - which likely means keeping her away from Oliver because he clearly hates her guts. 

 

You see that's they key thing for me "real female friendship". This is what I'd like and it's that which the show so far has failed to convince me exists between LL and Felicity. I could buy them being friends and was not predisposed to hating a friendship between them (usually I'm not a fan of the LI and ex being friends but this is Arrow where there was sister swapping so I'll let it slide) but the way it was shown on screen screamed "propping". If it was developed organically and seemed to be mutually beneficial then I would not hate it but the way it has played out on screen has left me, at times, furious.

 

If they wanted to handwave a magic friendship between Laurel and Felicity then why they didn't use the start of season 3 to do that is beyond me, I would've been surprised but willing to buy into the idea that sometime in the 5 months between the s2 finale and s3 premier, Laurel being in on the Arrow secret meant more time in the foundry and so more time with Felicity during which they developed a friendship. Instead s3 returned with Laurel calling FS to ask for a favour in tracking down some bad guy and Felicity drawing attention to their lack of a relationship with the line "Are we favour friends? Are we friends?". 

 

My other major problem with this relationship is that at times Felicity is required to behave in ways that to me seem OOC, in order to further Laurel's story and her 'hero' arc and that I have no time for. Bending my faves into pretzels in order to help a character that I, at best, only tolerate will get you nothing but disgust. Doing so in a way that is blatant to anybody watching, is disrespectful of your audience and will definitely earn my ire and make me dig in my heels against the very thing that you are trying to force down my throat.

Edited May 3, 2015 by lexicon

[catrox14]

I've been speculating on them killing off Felicity for the entire season to make way for Laurel to have more to do, including Oliver. Give us Olicity and blam..kill her off.  I can see it for Laurel/BC reasons. For Oliver angst to nth degree reasons.  But right now for Laurel there is just nothing for her to do in this show beyond being Quentin's daughter.  Although they did ship off Roy to parts unknown but she is just not a good fit on TA. It's a weird dynamic and it doesn't work IMO

[catrox14]

Felicity doesn't have to be Laurel's friend for there to be a 'real female friendship" in the show.  They can introduce other characters for Laurel to be friends with, what's Joanne up to these days?   Heck I'd buy a Thea/Laurel friendship first but that one is tough because of Oliver. 

 

I think they should have Laurel hang up the mask after deciding she just doesn't want to do it and have her run for Mayor. Sara comes back from the dead and is Black Canary in the spinoff and shows up to help Oliver as needed.   I would not mind that at all. She would have something important . Her hypocritical ways and behavior would suit her well in politics in this show and she could trying to the save the city in her own way.

[kismet]

Honestly, I think it comes down to the likely fact that 1/3 of the writers love LL, 1/3 hate her and 1/3 is apathetic to her journey. So depending upon who is at the helm of the storyline we get a different version of LL. There is very little character growth for her. There is no consistent building of her character to either be better or worse. Despite everything they thrown at her, she still remains less developed than she should be. Even Roy gradually built from a useless character to having a vital part on TA in the show. Even his coma state helped move his character forward. With LL its all swinging back & forth on a pendulum. One episode it looks like they might have solved some of her issues and the next episode they hit her right back down.

 

Its funny that they used Radioactive as her love song. Because seriously, that is how I feel about her character - the whole Arrow world could go up in an apocalyptic flames & LL would still be the sole survivor. Her survival would make even less sense than her death. But still she would be their as resilient & stubborn as ever, leaving the audience to wonder Why? or Hah? while she cries Why Me? ~for once agreeing that nothing makes sense when it comes to LL & her journey.

[statsgirl]

The problem I think is that they want their Laurel Lance/Black Canary but they're not interested enough in the character to write properly for her.  She's not physically awesome like CL/Sara was; she's not cute and funny like Felicity is; she's not cute and vulnerable like Thea is.  She's not a guy, although they had trouble writing for Roy too.  They want her to be the Black Canary but since she's no longer Oliver's love interest, they don't know what to write for her.

 

This is entirely on the EPs though because we've come up with lots of good suggestions for Laurel, from a real role on Team Arrow as a lawyer and investigator to her relationship with Thea to how to build a friendship with Felicity.  They love Laurel, they just don't care about her all that much.

 

I also think perhaps Felicity will be killed and Oliver will link with Laurel somehow. I doubt Oliver will have a happy ever after in this show. He'll morn felicity But the show will end with a perhaps for the comic GA/BC fans.

Nothing is impossible, after all Shonda Rhimes just killed off McDreamy but it was season 11 of Grey's Anatomy

.

I don't think Arrow will go 11 seasons (I can see Stephen Amell wanting a movie career long before that).

 

They may kill off Felicity near the end and leave Oliver fighting partners with Laurel but it would take more than two or three seasons to be able to build up a romantic relationship between them after Olicity.

[Menrva]

 

Its funny that they used Radioactive as her love song. Because seriously, that is how I feel about her character - the whole Arrow world could go up in an apocalyptic flames & LL would still be the sole survivor. 

Great. So post-apocalypse, we'll have cockroaches…and Laurel. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Great. So post-apocalypse, we'll have cockroaches…and Laurel. 

 

Yeah, but at least we'll all be dead!  Silver linings, and all.

[catrox14]

 

Great. So post-apocalypse, we'll have cockroaches…and Laurel.

 

LOL oh great. Thanks for that. Now I want to see her become Buckle Cockroach.  No, I really do. I would accept that as her superhero moniker.

 

She could have little tentacles coming out of the mask and then her mask would actually make sense. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by catrox14

[Menrva]

Yeah, but at least we'll all be dead!  Silver linings, and all.

There is a bright side!

 

Does anyone have any hopes for LL for season 4? Is this an appropriate place to put wishes/hopes/demands for future seasons, or is that too off-topic? My apologies to the mods, if I'm just mucking things up here.

 

Because beyond my fondest desire for Arrow S4 (which is LL gone) I would like to see a humbler, introspective Laurel who is really examining why she wants to be a vigilante. And I want her to be done with being an ADA, because there's only so much hypocritical BS I can take from her, even if her most effective scenes this season have been when LL was being a lawyer. But since there's no way Laurel will give up the mask (since, you know, she's always been headed for it, just like she knows Oliver in her bones), let's just deal with one improbability at a time here.

[kismet]

Does anyone have any hopes for LL for season 4? Is this an appropriate place to put wishes/hopes/demands for future seasons, or is that too off-topic? My apologies to the mods, if I'm just mucking things up here.

 

Because beyond my fondest desire for Arrow S4 (which is LL gone) I would like to see a humbler, introspective Laurel who is really examining why she wants to be a vigilante. And I want her to be done with being an ADA, because there's only so much hypocritical BS I can take from her, even if her most effective scenes this season have been when LL was being a lawyer. But since there's no way Laurel will give up the mask (since, you know, she's always been headed for it, just like she knows Oliver in her bones), let's just deal with one improbability at a time here.

Funny you should ask.... I have just been speculating in my head & over on the hopes/fears thread about the possibility of introducing sex trafficking in s4 as part of the Bratva storyline. Was inspired by the numerous fanfics that link OQ/Bratva/sex trafficking and the fact that there seems to be a lot of overlap of inspiration either coincidental or not from fanfic writers to the actual writers.

 

Originally, I thought it was good idea to incorporate Thea into main plot

esp. if they pay homage to the Speedy from the comics Mia Dearden. Not have Thea be a victim of st, but rather have her work with the victims as part of her recovery from LP & what MM did to her.

. But then as I was finishing my post I got a stroke of genius that it would also be organic & realistic for BC/LL to work with TeamArrow to take down the sex trafficking. It would be organic to the storyline/characterization of comic BC that stands up for women & victims of evil men. But also it would be realistic that as a lawyer, LL could also be involved in helping to build a case & prosecute the sex trafficking ring. Win Win all around. BC lives up to her comic character. LL has a realistic use of her law degree. Thea is in main plot. Thea/LL & even FS could develop close working ties & friendship over helping to save these victims. The storyline could tie back to OQ through the Bratva flashbacks & present-day fallout. IDK, in my mind its all working out beautifully. Ending sex trafficking is a worthy endeavor for TeamArrow. I would also appreciate that it would bring attention to a real life gritty issue that needs a superhero intervention. It would be nice if Arrow's darkness became real again & not just all about good v. evil. Prophecies & myths that have muddled this season.

 

But getting back to LL, I do want to see her become more introspective, selfless & genuine in her interactions. By having her be the defender of the victims of sex trafficking it would allow her to think beyond herself. It would show us the LL of S1 in CNRI combined with BC. It also is not a storyline that has an easy or neat finish, so it won't be as repetitive as the case a week they tried to do in s1 or the randomness of LL in court s2&3. She could be working on a taskforce which is helping to build a case, so she would still be lawyering without having to write unnecessary/unrelated court scenes for her character. It would also link up with her efforts with TA in a productive & efficient manner rather than whatever random way they try to throw her into the episodes now.

[nksarmi]

I want to see Laurel have some fun.  I have this idea in my head that Nyssa finds out Sara is alive and leaves to go be with her.  At some point, I want to see a story with all three of them.  But anyway, when Nyssa leaves, she sends some really cute, highly skilled fighter to go work with Laurel to advance her skills.  I see an episode opening with Thea in Speedy gear watching Laurel chase some guy in black and as she catches up to him, she overtakes him and he starts chasing her.  Wondering what is going on, Thea follows to see him catch her and take her down and then Thea shoots an arrow to defend Laurel, but Laurel jumps up and catches the arrow as she and the guy in black crack up laughing.  Then Laurel and Thea share some amusing lines about Laurel's new trainer.  I want this guy to turn out to be a hero type, but someone who also irritates the heck out of Oliver (cause that's so hard to do!) but makes even Thea and Felicity laugh.

 

So eventually this guy should tie into Oliver's big story and because he can help, this wraps Laurel into the story as well and hopefully helps Oliver see that she has developed some skills and will make him more likely to work with her when this guy probably leaves or dies as the end of the season (because of course the writers will have to add to the pain - we can't have Arrow without pain!).  This way, I can believe Oliver and Laurel could work together in later seasons (because right now - come on - they hate each other!).

 

Anyway, I would also like to see her figure out a weapon to use.  She has said she can't use Sara's staff and while the police club works well enough I guess - I'd like to see her with nunchucks or something similar.  What I would love visually is if Nyssa trained Laurel to use sai because I just like the way that looks choreographed.  And heck, I'll give them the summer for her to learn to use them - Gabby learned awfully fast on Xena lol. :) 

[icandigit]

 

Does anyone have any hopes for LL for season 4? Is this an appropriate place to put wishes/hopes/demands for future seasons, or is that too off-topic?

No. When they didn't build on what they started in the Calm, I knew she was a lost cause. Then when she didn't get the canary cry because of an accident. I knew there was nothing that would make her matter.  I totally woulda rooted for a Laurel fighting to get better from an accident. I stole the canary cry accident  idea from someone else on this board. But, that's what coulda brought me on board. 

[Menrva]

Funny you should ask.... I have just been speculating in my head & over on the hopes/fears thread about the possibility of introducing sex trafficking in s4 as part of the Bratva storyline. Was inspired by the numerous fanfics that link OQ/Bratva/sex trafficking and the fact that there seems to be a lot of overlap of inspiration either coincidental or not from fanfic writers to the actual writers.

 

Originally, I thought it was good idea to incorporate Thea into main plot

esp. if they pay homage to the Speedy from the comics Mia Dearden. Not have Thea be a victim of st, but rather have her work with the victims as part of her recovery from LP & what MM did to her.

. But then as I was finishing my post I got a stroke of genius that it would also be organic & realistic for BC/LL to work with TeamArrow to take down the sex trafficking. It would be organic to the storyline/characterization of comic BC that stands up for women & victims of evil men. But also it would be realistic that as a lawyer, LL could also be involved in helping to build a case & prosecute the sex trafficking ring. Win Win all around. BC lives up to her comic character. LL has a realistic use of her law degree. Thea is in main plot. Thea/LL & even FS could develop close working ties & friendship over helping to save these victims. The storyline could tie back to OQ through the Bratva flashbacks & present-day fallout. IDK, in my mind its all working out beautifully. Ending sex trafficking is a worthy endeavor for TeamArrow. I would also appreciate that it would bring attention to a real life gritty issue that needs a superhero intervention. It would be nice if Arrow's darkness became real again & not just all about good v. evil. Prophecies & myths that have muddled this season.

 

But getting back to LL, I do want to see her become more introspective, selfless & genuine in her interactions. By having her be the defender of the victims of sex trafficking it would allow her to think beyond herself. It would show us the LL of S1 in CNRI combined with BC. It also is not a storyline that has an easy or neat finish, so it won't be as repetitive as the case a week they tried to do in s1 or the randomness of LL in court s2&3. She could be working on a taskforce which is helping to build a case, so she would still be lawyering without having to write unnecessary/unrelated court scenes for her character. It would also link up with her efforts with TA in a productive & efficient manner rather than whatever random way they try to throw her into the episodes now.

Kismet, I really like your idea a lot. I guess I am trying to find ways to tolerate LL, since we will never be rid of her. It's too bad; I wish the TIIC had just made a BC show, if they wanted to show her story. I really feel like it has no place on a show called Arrow. With a more capable actress and competent show runners and writers, it could have been a great show. But I guess female viewers aren't as valuable as male viewers. 

[Starfish35]

It's too bad; I wish the TIIC had just made a BC show, if they wanted to show her story. I really feel like it has no place on a show called Arrow. With a more capable actress and competent show runners and writers, it could have been a great show. But I guess female viewers aren't as valuable as male viewers.

Actually, I don't agree with that, personally. To me that's like saying Beckett's story has no place on a show called Castle. I wouldn't have minded at all having Laurel's story told alongside Oliver's. In fact, before the show started, I was far more interested in how Laurel's story would go than Oliver's. It's how they're telling it, and who they cast, that is my issue. I'd have loved to have seen one of the many fantastic scenarios people here have proposed of how her story should have been told differently from the beginning. But at this point, there is no fixing her for me, short of cutting their losses and just making her an occasional recurring character. But I'm sure that's not going to happen.

[FurryFury]

Yeah I also don't agree that Arrow should be only about Oliver. Buffy and Angel were shows about their respective heroes, but they've managed to tell lots of other stories, and had some very memorable and effective character arcs for supporting players (some of which weren't even in the main cast). 

I really wanted to like Laurel before the show started, but they've fucked up so majorly that she became the biggest reason for me to quit watching.

[Sakura12]

I was excited for Laurel during the season 1 premiere. I was like hell yeah Black Canary. It all went down hill from there to where it's fell off a cliff and sunk to the bottom of the ocean. I don't care what her name is, Laurel is not any Black Canary I would ever recognize. As someone else said, she's a made up character that happens to have the same name as the BC. 

[KirkB]

Arrow/Oliver and his fighting crime to save his city, back when he was, is the main reason I watch the show, but even I wouldn't be that interested if he was the only character on screen week after week. He needs friends, allies, and recurring, interesting enemies. Laurel Lance can be one of them, I have no problem with that. But the show was supposed to be watching Oliver evolve into the Green Arrow. The Black Canary arc could have been done the same way Roy's was into Arsenal, in the background and somewhat off screen. I know the comics people would have a problem with that since she is supposed to be more experienced and far more badass than he is, but this is a different interpretation of the character. Of all of them, really. Could Laurel be saved as a character for me? No, she is a lost cause. They have managed to make me hate her when I was indifferent for so long. The best they can accomplish now, as far as I'm concerned, is get Laurel back to a point where I don't care again. They're never going to make me like her.

Edited April 28, 2015 by KirkB

[TanyaKay]

At least she'd have a shot on the spinoff.

For me at this point, the problem isn't the backstory or anything the character has done onscreen.

The problem is that Oliver/Stephen (cannot tell you which) acts like he can't stand her. He finds her presence exhausting. He doesn't have lingering affection for her. He doesn't want bad things to happen to her, but he doesn't want her around. Ever. He doesn't like it when she is around. And I don't get the sense that this is part of a relationship evolution and they're working back around to friendship. These people, who never felt like they could ever have been friends, do not get on at all, not for adversarial sexy reasons but for genuine *ugh, her* reasons.

She should be going to the spinoff. She should not be on a show that Oliver is on because his clear objection to her presence radiates from her and isn't something that is going to change, no matter how many martial arts lessons she has.

People wondering why she's still around...well, this is the first year it is possible that her contract may be up. Three years is probably the minimum. It may be longer, but this year is the first time it's conceivable that her contract could be up.

I do agree with everything you said about Stephen/Oliver barely tolerating the character - he cannot even praise it in interviews, when asked about BC during TCA, he chose to talk about the dress designer who designed the costume and refused to say anything about KC/LL. It was kind of hard to miss. At the same time, I am not sure about any possibility of writing her off. They killed Tommy in S1 even though Colin Donnell had the same 6 yr contract that Stephen has. They killed off Moira, another regular with at least 3 yr long contract, in S2. They could've killed her off in S1, chose not to. They could've written her off in S3, they can and should do it in S3 but knowing the hard on the writers have for Black Canary, chances of that happening are very slim.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I have a way that Laurel could become tolerable to me.  Taking to Hopes & Fears thread.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

I do agree with everything you said about Stephen/Oliver barely tolerating the character - he cannot even praise it in interviews, when asked about BC during TCA, he chose to talk about the dress designer who designed the costume and refused to say anything about KC/LL. It was kind of hard to miss. At the same time, I am not sure about any possibility of writing her off. They killed Tommy in S1 even though Colin Donnell had the same 6 yr contract that Stephen has. They killed off Moira, another regular with at least 3 yr long contract, in S2. They could've killed her off in S1, chose not to. They could've written her off in S3, they can and should do it in S3 but knowing the hard on the writers have for Black Canary, chances of that happening are very slim.

 

I agree, the chances of the character being dropped from the show is about 98% it's not gonna happen (KC was very excited about coming back in S4 and being all kick ass after training in an interview a few months ago; if they had told her they were shipping her off I don't think she would have mentioned that). BUT, I'll take that sliver of 2% hope and pray to all the TV Gods that the Arrow producers realize they don't really need BC on their show and that her arc has been covered this season, however rushed and badly it was done.

 

Does Laurel Lance/BC still have a place on "Arrow"? I'm sure no one here is going to be surprised that my answer is not anymore. I see Season 3 as a make-or-break one for the character. After learning the truth about Oliver last season, this was the time where she could have been better integrated into the main storyline and Team Arrow. But despite the fact this whole storyline began with her sister's murder, Laurel has been pretty much isolated from it  -- again. She was barely in the last two episodes and her absence was noteworthy only in that it was unnoticeable. Heck, there are a lot of episodes this season where you can cut her scenes and nothing in the narrative really changes.

 

Posters have mentioned shows such as "L&O," "Castle" and even "Buffy" as examples as to why Laurel should be able to work on Arrow. But thing is, none of those shows can actually be compared with "Arrow." L&O is a procedural where we barely saw the personal lives of the characters. Castle, despite the title, is about Castle AND Beckett. There would be no Castle without Beckett. Buffy is the closest show to Arrow among those cited. But Buffy is not expected to share her hero journey with anybody else. Yes, Willow and Xander and Spike had their own arcs/journeys, but the the focus of the show was and always had been on Buffy's. Arrow without Laurel is Buffy, with the supporting cast's journeys supporting the main hero's. Arrow with Laurel is a scattered mess.

 

Arrow has outgrown Laurel, that's the problem. There was a plan going in that Laurel was going to be THE love interest as well as the crime-fighting partner. But we all know what happened after a smile and a head tilt. The show changed course and, in doing so, left Laurel behind. Both roles Laurel was supposed to play got filled. And three seasons later, the show hasn't found another role for her.

[tarotx]

KC is fine as an actress. She just needs a character she can make her Own. The Black Canary is just too pre set in stone and them trying to adapt someone who doesn't fit that was a poor decision in casting. Once they had KC cast as Laurel they needed to abandoned her as the BC. Especially given the back story they were creating for Laurel. They had an actress and a back story all wrong to be the BC. Especially given that they were creating a more dark Batmanesque version of Oliver Queen/Arrow. Two depressing people with a poor history as love interest? Fun times. Not!

Watching season 2, even though I knew CL was leaving at the start of S3 (I didn't know Sara was killed off), I figured the ptb knew they had a problem so they cast a character and actress that fit the BC idea. And they would make Laurel her own hero. But Alas that isn't what happened...

I still wish they would make Laurel Manhunter. And Bring Sara back as the BC.

I want Evil Ollie to laugh so hard at Laurel's Canary Cry. Maybe as he is Laughing is @ss off, team Arrow can capture him for a debrainwashing.

I want Laurel to get it through her head that she's not Sara and that that she deserves her own thing.

They can can get her a Manhunter suit and have her wear it under her lawyer apparel And do superman phone booth like stuff for humor.

And they should have Laurel run for Mayor. My god use the character you created instead of the one you wish you did to the the detriment to Laurel and the show.

I have a way that Laurel could become tolerable to me. Taking to Hopes & Fears thread.

Edited April 28, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

Laurel for mayor was another idea I was kicking around. It might work, but then again they had Moira run for mayor and that story never really got traction. I think it would remove her too far from the main Arrow plot, and again we would be wondering if her parts could just be cut out. Hopefully Wendy Mericle has some good ideas.

 

The other out of the box idea I had (but only because I love Tommy & want him back) would be if the show changed how they did the flashbacks. The flashbacks rarely ever connect to the main plot line anymore, they generally are setting something up for the future. So what if they made more SC flashbacks that included Tommy, Malcolm, Laurel & Quentin? That way you could have them contractually earn their checks. But their storyline would not need to be directly linked to Oliver. It might even give the Wig a well deserved break. It might also give some well needed chill time between QL & TA, without losing PB's scenes. It could help show how bad SC became & how much the Arrow was a needed presence to help the city.

Edited April 28, 2015 by kismet

[ostentatious]

KC is fine as an actress. She just needs a character she can make her Own. The Black Canary is just too pre set in stone and them trying to adapt someone who doesn't fit that was a poor decision in casting. Once they had KC cast as Laurel they needed to abandoned her as the BC. Especially given the back story they were creating for Laurel. They had an actress and a back story all wrong to be the BC. Especially given that they were creating a more dark Batmanesque version of Oliver Queen/Arrow. Two depressing people with a poor history as love interest? Fun times. Not!

Watching season 2, even though I knew CL was leaving at the start of S3 (I didn't know Sara was killed off), I figured the ptb knew they had a problem so they cast a character and actress that fit the BC idea. And they would make Laurel her own hero. But Alas that isn't what happened...

I still wish they would make Laurel Manhunter. And Bring Sara back as the BC.

I want Evil Ollie to laugh so hard at Laurel's Canary Cry. Maybe as he is Laughing is @ss off, team Arrow can capture him for a debrainwashing.

I want Laurel to get it through her head that she's not Sara and that that she deserves her own thing.

They can can get her a Manhunter suit and have her wear it under her lawyer apparel And do superman phone booth like stuff for humor.

And they should have Laurel run for Mayor. My god use the character you created instead of the one you wish you did to the the detriment to Laurel and the show.

 

 

God, this.

 

It isn't just that Katie was miscast as Laurel. *LAUREL* was miscast as the Black Canary.

 

And I get it. Oliver is nothing like comics Ollie and never will be. That's not who they cast. Even when he lightens up he isn't going to be that guy. So, they changed Dinah Laurel Lance to Laurel Lance, and gave her a different personality. But Katie was miscast for that role as conceived. 

 

It's this intersection of bad casting decisions. Characters miscast as other characters, actors miscast as those characters.

[TyranAmiros]

God, this.

It isn't just that Katie was miscast as Laurel. *LAUREL* was miscast as the Black Canary.

And I get it. Oliver is nothing like comics Ollie and never will be. That's not who they cast. Even when he lightens up he isn't going to be that guy. So, they changed Dinah Laurel Lance to Laurel Lance, and gave her a different personality. But Katie was miscast for that role as conceived.

It's this intersection of bad casting decisions. Characters miscast as other characters, actors miscast as those characters.

This seems to me to lie at the heart of the problem. When they decided to change Green Arrow to Batman-with-a-bow, they didn't think about how Laurel fit into this world.

If they had kept Green Arrow as a social justice-seeking, womanizing, light-hearted playboy, then Laurel probably would have worked as the Arrow's more serious and thoughtful partner. His direction, if you will.

In fact, to me this seems like the role they set her up for in Season 1. Look at her and Tommy's relationship. Or the way she gives Oliver advice. It didn't need to be romantic--the "will-they-won't-they" could go on for a while, as long as Oliver wasn't tied down. Just bring out that picture of Laurel Oliver carries with him from time to time.

But that wasn't the Ollie they wrote. Or the one SA wanted to portray. Without the womanizing, without the impulsiveness, without the light-heartedness there was no need for the Laurel they had created. Oliver didn't need a strategist or a manager. He needed emotional and technical support.

[kismet]

This is going to be so superficial and I try to avoid being superficial. But in re-watching parts of s1, I really wish they would darken LL's hair. I actually loved the coloring in s1 and think it is more flattering than her shading now. Im not saying it would greatly improve her characterization on the show. But it might make her physically appear less harsh. Also more likely that people would not recognize her as the blonde woman running around in buckles.

[wingster55]

Laurel has lost a sister, a father and now Oliver. Good thing there isn't anyone else she lost. Nope. No one who saved her during an earthquake or who shared a long relationship with.

 

Wait...

[olicityfan25]

She didn't have to stay at CNRI. That was done just to kill Tommy. She had what 3 different people tell her to leave.

[ruby24]

I don't understand how they can have the character of Green Arrow, on a show called Arrow, ultimately be paired with someone who is NOT Black Canary. Especially because she's a series regular and the female lead. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Don't the characters have like a 40 year history in the comics? Just like I could never see any iteration of Superman that does not portray Lois Lane as his true love, if they don't ultimately come back to this...it just seems like such a major, major deviation from the source material. Too major.

[Starfish35]

That conversation should probably go to the Relationships thread.

[Sakura12]

Even in the comics Green Arrow and Black Canary have a toxic relationship with Oliver constantly cheating on her. They were married but got divorced. In the current comic universe GA and BC don't even know each other. 

 

GA and BC are nothing like the Superman and Lois Lane. 

[ruby24]

Except for way too many decades of history. Toxic or not, on and off or not, she's still supposed to be his iconic love interest, right?

[nksarmi]

Even in the comics Green Arrow and Black Canary have a toxic relationship with Oliver constantly cheating on her. They were married but got divorced. In the current comic universe GA and BC don't even know each other. 

 

GA and BC are nothing like the Superman and Lois Lane. 

And let's not forget that in the current New 52 - its Superman and Wonder Woman. 

 

If the EPs wanted to do GA and BC, they would have not written him cheating on her with her sister right from the start.  Forget chemistry, their backstory is gross. 

[dtissagirl]

Except for way too many decades of history. Toxic or not, on and off or not, she's still supposed to be his iconic love interest, right?

They tried in season one, and the majority of the audience rejected and/or wasn't interested in the couple. Or in Laurel for that matter. Ultimately they made a business decision to abandon the pairing because it didn't work out.

If you go back and read this thread, and the relationships thread, there's a whole lot of in depth analysis of the failure of Laurel/Oliver on Arrow. We'd be repeating ourselves if we start from scratch again.

[kismet]

I don't understand how they can have the character of Green Arrow, on a show called Arrow, ultimately be paired with someone who is NOT Black Canary. Especially because she's a series regular and the female lead. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Don't the characters have like a 40 year history in the comics? Just like I could never see any iteration of Superman that does not portray Lois Lane as his true love, if they don't ultimately come back to this...it just seems like such a major, major deviation from the source material. Too major.

You could post your question in the relationship thread or the Green Arrow thread, it might fit better there than in the LL's thread.

 

Im not from the comic world, so I had no idea about this great comic romance between GA/BC. I do however pay attention to pop culture. So I've known about Superman & Lois Lane since I was a little child, despite never reading a comic & barely watching comic related media until I was older. Lois & Superman are like Romeo & Juliet; Bonnie & Clyde; Mickey & Minnie Mouse. They are iconic pairing that cross cultures, ages & times. They are referenced in books, songs, tv/movies that have nothing to do with comics. But Black Canary & Green Arrow? Sorry to say I never heard of them prior to watching Arrow. So in my mind, I don't think the relationship is as vital to OQ/Arrow's journey, and it they deviate away from it I don't find it alarming or going too far. I do agree with you though that Lois & Superman should always be each other's LI/True Love.

 

Honestly, after watching the show for 3 years I just don't see LL/BC & OQ/Arrow being romantic partners. I think they might have been each other's first loves. But both have evolved & changed into different people from when they were together. Add to that all the toxic things they did to each other over the years, its hard to root for them to get back together even if might have been their comic destiny. I want them to be happy and they do not make each other happy on the TV show. They bring out the worst in each other and that is not a romantic ideal I want to watch.

[formerlyfreedom]

Yes, please, let's take the conversation on GA/BC over to Relationships or to the Green Arrow thread please. And thanks.

[Chaser]

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/118232331281/how-do-you-think-the-writers-went-wrong-by-laurel#tumblr_notes

 

My feelings exactly. 

[Delphi]

I agree.

I enjoyed Laurel slightly last statio season when she knew Blood was dirty. I enjoyed her helping Thea. The ultimate disservice to her was the thrusting of the mask. I honestly was pissed at her all season until she told Ray what was what when he came to her.

Laurel is strongest as a lawyer and I'd love to watch her do that. If she had to be a mask...fine.

I think it's Starfish that brings up Manhunter often but I agree. I'd love to see Laurel be a lawyer using her expeRtise as a lawyer to go about fighting.

She could be the one to attack protected villains. She could use her knowledge to help infiltrate. When needed she could bust out a costume. But black canary will never be her strong point.

[kismet]

statsgirl, on 27 May 2015 - 4:23 PM, said:

    Just putting it out there -- can them make Laurel a hero by having her do heroic things next season?  Or do they have to address what she's done selfishly in her relationships with Quentin and Sara, and her fighting because beating up people makes her feel better?

 

I think they need to address her lying to Quentin. I think she needs to take some responsibility in recognizing that her actions were wrong even if they were good intention. Impersonating & lying directly to her father about the death of his daughter & her sister, robbed him of the opportunity to properly grieve and mourn his daughter. For 1-2 episodes, I could understand her rationale if QL's heart condition was a bad as she thought. But clearly, if it was that bad he would not have returned to work. I can understand her fear of not wanting to lose her father, but the continued lying did just that. And the actually impersonating in front of him, well that to me was way over the line of decency & acting out of love. That is just selfish. Then again, her mother was also in on the lying so perhaps she just has poor examples to learn from. Her relationship with Sara has always felt like more of an afterthought. I wish they had shown us more of their sisterly bond because it would have helped me believe more why she wanted to take over her sister's mask. Moving forward, I think if they can reference a sisterly connection between the two I think that would be wonderful. I really want to enjoy LL & SL together on my screen as sisters.

 

Laurel will probably always come off as more selfish & egotistical to me more than anything else. The world will always seem to revolve around her, and that is okay. I know a few people in my life that are like that. I do not think that is a bad thing per se, but a selfish hero is a hard sell. I think the writers need to somehow make her selfish tendencies be more heroic. For example, RDJ/Ironman to me comes off with a selfish & egotistical swagger, but it works because of how they write him & how he acts. In my head, that doesn't make him less of a hero, but its also because they take the time to show that he has other motivations for why he is trying to save the world besides just recognition & praise. If they are not going to change LL or how KC acts in the role, then they need to find a way to write for her that uses some of her basic character's personality to work for the role.

 

As for heroic deeds to make her a hero, I think it is possible & I think it is needed. Too much of this season people have accused her of stealing Sara's life & identity. The writers have done her no favors by not giving her some well explained motivation and desire as to why she wants to be a hero. Like I said before, in s1 I felt she was trying to be a hero. S2 was a dark time for her and a lot of it was her own doing. And in s3, I think she just enjoys the rush of hitting people, fighting crime and being cool in a mask. Never once in s3 did I think she is doing this because she truly cares for the people of SC. She just seemed lost and hitting the streets was giving her a constructive way to channel her anger & loss.

 

I need Laurel to be relevant & helpful to TA. Most of all, I need the show to make her a hero because she wants to be a hero, not because she wears a mask. She wants to save people and make heroic sacrifices. I want to see her more like s1 where even though she was a bitch at times, deep down you knew she had a heart. Something needs to be fueling her desire behind sacrificing so much every night. I need to know & see what that something is. Otherwise it just feels like she swapped out one addiction for the next one.

 

As for her fighting skills, I'm just gonna assume she trained up really hard over the summer. So if she comes back as amazing fighter, its because of everything they didn't have time to show onscreen. As for being able to take down LoA members & not casual muggers, I also attribute that to her training with Nyssa. Nyssa trained her with the LoA fighting style so she is more capable of perhaps recognizing their moves to defeat them. Meanwhile, muggers have no particular style so beating them is part skill, luck and experience. She hasn't been out in the field enough to build up enough experience to recognize how to defeat the unpredictable tactics of a common street fighter.

[AyChihuahua]

As for her fighting skills, I'm just gonna assume she trained up really hard over the summer. So if she comes back as amazing fighter, its because of everything they didn't have time to show onscreen. As for being able to take down LoA members & not casual muggers, I also attribute that to her training with Nyssa. Nyssa trained her with the LoA fighting style so she is more capable of perhaps recognizing their moves to defeat them. Meanwhile, muggers have no particular style so beating them is part skill, luck and experience. She hasn't been out in the field enough to build up enough experience to recognize how to defeat the unpredictable tactics of a common street fighter.

So basically, Team Arrow should have assembled an army of street thugs and muggers to take down the LOA?

 

I'm making fun of the show, not you, but that doesn't make any sense to me.  The LOA aren't just good fighters against other LOA members...otherwise what is the point?  I really think that was a show inconsistency that can't be explained away.  Anyone good enough to take out an LOA member in a one-on-one should absolutely destroy a mugger.

[kismet]

So basically, Team Arrow should have assembled an army of street thugs and muggers to take down the LOA?

 

I'm making fun of the show, not you, but that doesn't make any sense to me.  The LOA aren't just good fighters against other LOA members...otherwise what is the point?  I really think that was a show inconsistency that can't be explained away.  Anyone good enough to take out an LOA member in a one-on-one should absolutely destroy a mugger.

Haha... Im grasping at straws here. That's the best I could come up with. It is pretty bad inconsistency for the show, then again a lot of the LoA members seemed pretty easy to beat. It's like what MM said when he was training TQ, you have to change your tactics otherwise you become predictable. All I can think of is the worst of the worst LoA member was put against LL and she just happened to predict his/her movements. Like when athletes review film before a games so they can outplay their opponents by knowing their moves or tells. Or maybe that mugger just had some raw talent? Either way by s4, I expect LL's stunt double to be very kickass.

[statsgirl]

I think Laurel can be a hero next season but before that they have to address a few things, and it's not regarding her relationships with Quentin and Sara. I think Laurel being a hero will require her to actually grow as a person. She kicks butt for selfish reasons. This is why I didn't think Oliver was a hero in season 1. Laurel needs to figure out WHY she wants to be a hero, and maybe Sara coming back to life will help her. It could change her from wanting to kick butt to make her feel better because of Sara's death, to wanting to kick butt because she's making a difference in the world and she's actually HELPING. I feel like putting on a mask requires people to become martyrs (a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle), and Laurel is nowhere near that. And they can't flip a switch and make her become one in an instant. It has to be an ongoing process.

[snip]

I also feel like Laurel needs to understand what being a superhero/hero means. And I don't think she does. Not in the way Oliver knows. She has to understand the sacrifices she may have to make, she has to understand that kicking ass or having a mask does not make a hero. Laurel also needs to have a set of principles, a set of rules to go by and I don't know what they are...

It wo0ld be great if Sara could help Laurel figure out why she's fighting other than because she's got an addictive personality.  I'm afraid they're not going to do it though, because they think that Laurel is just fine now as she is.

 

They also don't want to make Sara better than Laurel, which she would be if she was teaching Laurel how to be a real vigilante. It's okay for Sara to tell Oliver that they need people in their lives who don't wear mask but Sara can't tell the Black Canary how to fight or how to be.

 

Laurel will probably always come off as more selfish & egotistical to me more than anything else. The world will always seem to revolve around her, and that is okay. I know a few people in my life that are like that. I do not think that is a bad thing per se, but a selfish hero is a hard sell. I think the writers need to somehow make her selfish tendencies be more heroic. For example, RDJ/Ironman to me comes off with a selfish & egotistical swagger, but it works because of how they write him & how he acts. In my head, that doesn't make him less of a hero, but its also because they take the time to show that he has other motivations for why he is trying to save the world besides just recognition & praise. If they are not going to change LL or how KC acts in the role, then they need to find a way to write for her that uses some of her basic character's personality to work for the role.

 

As for heroic deeds to make her a hero, I think it is possible & I think it is needed. Too much of this season people have accused her of stealing Sara's life & identity. The writers have done her no favors by not giving her some well explained motivation and desire as to why she wants to be a hero. Like I said before, in s1 I felt she was trying to be a hero. S2 was a dark time for her and a lot of it was her own doing. And in s3, I think she just enjoys the rush of hitting people, fighting crime and being cool in a mask. Never once in s3 did I think she is doing this because she truly cares for the people of SC. She just seemed lost and hitting the streets was giving her a constructive way to channel her anger & loss.

I wish they would let Laurel do dark rather than having her dark and pretending that she's light.  (I also think Katie Cassidy would be better playing it.)

 

The writing had Sara say a lot about how unworthy she was when all we saw was someone trapped in circumstances and doing what she could to survive. Meanwhile Laurel was often holier-than-thou, from insisting that she knew better that Sara was dead in s1, that she couldn't tell her father that she really had died in s3, and that she was just as good a fighter as anyone else in s3.

 

I think the writers will sweep it all under the rug and make her as close to the comics Black Canary as they can but it will be a loss because there's a lot of character growth storyline they could get from her.