Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[statsgirl]

 

well, it's all very sweet to have big sis find something nice to say but how helpful is it in the long run?

If Sara felt inferior all her life to Laurel, as she well might given that family scene when she comes back from college, then having Laurel accept her and respect her might mean more than having it come from Quentin or Dinah, both  of whom greeted her back with joy.  So on that level, it worked for me, and I was glad to finally get closure between the sisters after 7 years, because friends come and go but family, if you're lucky enough to get a good one, stays..

 

 

"Canaries were once regularly used in coal mining as an early warning system.  Toxic gases such as carbon monoxide, methane or carbon dioxide in the mine would kill the bird before affecting the miners.

I understand the sentiment, but wow, that would have been taken as a huge anvil of Sara dying.

 

Laurel doesn't have the faintest clue what Sara went through so really, what can she say?  If Sara really does feel inferior to the gorgeous and popular (on screen) Laurel, being compared to a beautiful bird is a sweet thing to feel.

 

 

So when Laurel tries to tell me in the show that she's gone through much worse than anyone else and that no one can understand what she's going through - ok, no question that she's been through hell, but my immediate response is, are you paying attention to anyone else on the show?

That, I think is the big problem, as well as her lack of chemistry with SA.  Laurel is being written as if she were on another show.  It reminds me of Pleasantville,where all the characters were black and white and suddenly one of them was in colour. Or in Laurel's case, black and white in a colour TV show.  She interacts with the  other characters but she stands out and usually I'm aware that she's different.

Edited May 10, 2014 by statsgirl

[GirlWednesday]

What disengages me from her character and her whole arc is everyone acting like LL did something no one else could. Bugging blood's office and Quentin gushing after that she would make a great spy, blah blah (..really show.. Felicity can create bugs.. I don't see her asking for a noble prize!).

Just senseless over the top gushing for simple things. Digg/felicity don't make a big deal about putting themselves at risk for others. They deal with the fallout and move on. But the world stops when LL experiences anything notable. I think I would (maybe) not FF her scenes or be irritated if everyone around her didn't treat her like a cherished doll at every turn.

My friends and I alternate our reactions between "oh look laurel is doing something .. She's moving a convenient plot point along" and now cue cast member who will gush at her. The psychology student would probably hazard a theory that she has low esteem and needs constant validation. Oh wait, that would be the writers.

Edited May 10, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[icandigit]

In theory I liked the scene with laurel and her sister.  The words were right and they've needed a scene like that. But, the execution of it had me cringing for some reason. I think it goes back to what was posted earlier. Its like she's from a different show.

[statsgirl]

 

The psychology student would probably hazard a theory that she has low esteem and needs constant validation.

raises hand... pick me, pick me!  Low self-esteem is a possibility but at this point, I'm leaning to narcissistic.  Everything revolves around her, every action is referenced from her point of view.

 

And why not?  Look at how Quentin behaved after Laurel bugged Blood's office, compared to how he was after Sara saved a child from a burning building. He was glad Sara was alive but could he at least have given her some validation for the act?  For example, when the nameless cop said 'that woman is a hero', Quentin could have added "She really is".

 

If Laurel grew up with that, with her parents praising her every move and pushing her to law school or academia while they've just happy for Sara not to get kicked out of school, and adding on Laurel's looks and brains, no wonder she thinks the world revolves around her and no one has suffered like she has.

[Sakura12]

From what they've shown us of the Lance family, it's no wonder Sara has such an inferiority complex. She never thinks she's good enough. She can run into a burning building to save a child and her father will cheer on Laurel for standing on the street with the girls family. 

 

Of course I also got the feeling that Laurel was always competing with Sara to be the favorite child while Sara wasn't even playing. But by doing that the parents started worrying more about their younger daughter and paying less attention to Laurel. 

Edited May 10, 2014 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

Of course I also got the feeling that Laurel was always competing with Sara to be the favorite child while Sara wasn't even playing. But by doing that the parents started worrying more about their younger daughter and paying less attention to Laurel.

 

 

This is my impression as well.  Parents can fall into some bizarre habits.  My brother and I are a year and half apart.  I'm a book worm (surprise!) and he brags that he's only read 3 books.  (Huckleberry Finn, Johnny Tremain, and The Perfect Storm)  In grade school our differences  showed up in our grades and it freaked my parents out; they went out of their way to reassure my brother he was smart too, going so far as to tell him (and me) the reason I did well in school was because I'd seen his homework the year before so it was easy for me.  They didn't stop this kind of behavior (and frankly I'd forgotten all of this until I just read the above post )until his sixth grade teacher tested him for being slow.  Turned out he could read several grade levels ahead, he just never did his homework - then they finally stopped treating him with kid gloves.

 

Maybe Quentin and Dinah should have pushed Sara to reach her potential, though if the only thing that could motivate her was threat of death I think there are laws against that kind of encouragement. 

Edited May 11, 2014 by BkWurm1

[millahnna]

 

Of course I also got the feeling that Laurel was always competing with Sara to be the favorite child while Sara wasn't even playing. But by doing that the parents started worrying more about their younger daughter and paying less attention to Laurel.

 

Purely from and acting perspective, this is actually something I dig about the portrayal of the sisters.  It's not right there in the text but I have no doubt that Caty and Katie had a conversation and established some nuggets like that about their relationship pre-island.  It makes me wish even harder that the showrunners and writers would get a better grasp on what they want Laurel's character to be.  Katie does some of her best work playing vulnerable "bitchy" characters (Harper's Island notwithstanding, she was excellent in that but the role was not to her usual type) and it seems like she's tried to play to her strengths where the scripts have allowed. 

[GirlWednesday]

Laurel versus Sarah rivalry in Laurel's head makes sense to me. We, viewers, see narcissism but that cannot be the characteristic writers were going for. Heroic rising from being betrayed by two people she loved and how she overcame it by becoming an legal eagle crusader. But her first couple of scenes with Oliver were awful. I wanted Oliver to get away and stay away.

I find it interesting that Caity's Canary/Sarah has been accepted so well, having had a such a negative start to her story. A while back, I read this blog (I'm sure all you have read by now), a writer was dissecting the elements of the arrow narrative. One blog posting compared the first meet scene with Laurel/Oliver to Felicity/Oliver - Explained why one was successfully received and the other was not. I think if we compared Sarah's first meet with team arrow to laurel's first meet. We'd get the same conclusions.

http://www.arghink.com/2014/01/20/writing-the-first-meet-scene-arrow/ - if anyone wants to have a gander. The writer has ceased following Arrow. First set of articles were good though.

Edited May 11, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[BkWurm1]

I love how that author used to talk about Arrow. She too realized the show went of its rocker in the second half of the season. I love how she explains why a meet cute works.

""This is why the cute-meet scene can work really well sometimes and fail utterly other times. It’s not about the cute, not about how they look or how snappy their dialogue is, it’s about how the characters surprise each other into vulnerability, about how they react to those surprises, about how they transform each other even if it’s only slightly. Chemistry isn’t about sex, it’s about impact.""

And why the Oliver/Laurel meet cute didn't work.

""Vulnerability is always the key to creating relationships; without vulnerability you have two hard shiny surfaces that can’t attach. The following Oliver/Laurel scene is their first meet in the series, although they have a prior history with each other. That prior history is irrelevant in this discussion because “first meet” also means the first time the reader/viewer meets the relationship, so this is the viewer’s introduction to the great love story of Oliver’s life. But Oliver is detached because that’s Oliver’s go-to coping mechanism (granite, remember); the fact that he’s genuinely contrite is obscured by his distance. Laurel is distant because she’s been hurt so badly and because she’s so angry, but all that shows in this scene is the anger. Which means this is a cold, hostile woman berating a cold, guarded man in a scene in which neither of them changes because neither of them shows enough vulnerability to allow a change. That means that the viewer is given nothing to build future expectations on and in fact, actively hopes they never meet again because these people are unpleasant to watch: two hard, shiny surfaces who make each other colder by their proximity.""

My first impression of Laurel was that she was well justified in her anger but that she should take that anger and stay away. When before the episode ended had tried to apologize and make some peace, I didn't buy it nor did I at that point even want her to make peace with him. Then in the next episode after Thea BEGGED Oliver to open up to her (she had even gone so far as to take him to his empty grave and the headstones she talked too because she had NO ONE who,would listen) and instead Oliver asked LAUREL to ice cream, well I pretty much hated both Of them but especially Laurel on Thea's behalf.

Back to Jennifer Crusie's blog post, I think this is my favorite part of.

""(It should be noted that Laurel is still supposed to be Oliver’s One True Love. I have no idea what show the people who keep saying that are watching, but I don’t think it’s this one.)""

Hey, this is an expert in the romance business. :) It's nice to know I'm not the crazy one.

[BkWurm1]

New topic. How could Laurel be made likable? I posted this over at TWoP too.

It's a tough question since I've spent a lot more time examining why I don't like her than what could make me like her but I do have a few thoughts.

1. Stop inserting her where she does not belong. If her reason for being a part of a scene is weak, keep her out of it. She's at the DA's office. Let her be a source for the team, not a direct part. She hasn't earned anything else yet. If she brings them info, let her do her part and then leave her out of it. I'd be fine if she goes and gathers info. Let her investigate some. But don't have the team go to her if they could reasonable do it on their own. Respect the audience.

2. Let her interact with Paul Blackthorne as much as possible in a positive way. Even homey little moments where they are just hanging out. (FYI I also want an episode next season that focuses on Detective Lance. Let's see everything from his perspective for a change. ).

3. Laurel needs to make nice with Diggle and Felicity. Intentional or not, she comes off like she thinks they are beneath her. And she needs to humble herself not the other way around. If it's written that they fall over her with praise or something I will never like her. It has to be earned because at this point she does NOT get a hand wave and a fanwank.

4. After #3, then Laurel could make friends with Felicity. Both like a good shoe. Perhaps they could build on that but it has to be an equal friendship, not one where Felicity is used to prop up Laurel or become a Lauliver cheerleader. I have to think that Laurel is lonely. If Sara sticks around maybe she could be a bridge, if she doesn't (but is still Canary cause that has to remain the same or liking Laurel is even a longer shot than before) Laurel has to be sincere. It could even make a good scene where Laurel IS still being condescending and Felicity calls her on it and Laurel admits she's never been any good at keeping female friends. (Johann didn't last a year and she was more of a work friend anyway).

5. This is a big one. Keep her away from any scene with Oliver that could even slightly be interpreted as romantic. Right now putting them together for anything is unpleasant. She's in recovery anyway. Don't they always say you should wait a year minimum before any romantic relationship? Let her prove her worth as an individual character before anything else.

6. Do all of this while not letting her take over the show. Pretend she's a new character being carefully and SLOWLY integrated into the cast. Too much too soon only creates backlash.

Or just kill her off in the final and Ill instantly start loving how they are writing her.

[GirlWednesday]

I'll play. What would improve her character - stop assuming/ telling the viewers she knows any character any better than anyone else. We don't believe it.

clock King was Sarah/Felicity " dance " to accept each other's place/role in the team. Respect/trust was earned in that Episode for each other by each other. It didn't always show/ translate properly onscreen but that's how my friends and I interpreted that episode.

Laurel should be shown to want to earn a spot, show some humility in her abilities/ need to acknowledge her shortcomings (" but not them" - was not it), approach Digg/Felicity - wanting to earn their respect.

Everyone (including Laurel) should stop describing Laurel as some paragon. Add substance to her motivations. "My bf died saving me so I'm going to hunt the vigilante, oh wait I'm not, I'll date an alderman, his eyes are shifty, need to stalk him and prove that he is bad".

Finally I don't trust Laurel's judgment/instincts. Why should Team Arrow? She had to know Oliver was cheating on her while she was dating him. She couldn't read him worth nothing. She was completely clueless/couldn't care that Oliver/Tommy were fighting. Thea looked at Moira/Oliver and knew they were fighting. I need Laurel the character to acknowledge that she was also blind to what she didn't want to see.

I get that Writers tried to go there ( maybe) with Quentin questioning Laurel on why she is hesitating with blood. But it became more about proving blood was evil than her inner demons about why she would just go there.

Edited May 11, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[quarks]

Auugh. My major irritation with the show - because, actually, it shouldn't be too hard to make Laurel Lance likeable.  The actress is, after all, and the character concept - a hard working attorney dealing with personal hell - is not inherently unlikeable. And these are the same writers that made spoiled brat Thea likeable and even sympathetic - and also said last season that they were aware that Thea wasn't the most sympathetic character, and that was deliberate.

 

Despite this, the writers keep missing opportunities for slight dialogue tweaks that would make Laurel more likeable - which is at complete odds with what they say in the interviews, that they think the audience should like Laurel. Hmm.

 

Anyway, back to the question:

 

1. Give Laurel funny lines. Cordelia on Buffy/Angel, after all - the closest analogue to Laurel this show has - was liked not because she started off as a nice person, but because she was and continued to be funny, and audiences generally respond well to funny characters.

 

I'm not sure why the show hasn't been doing this - granted, it's not a comedy show, but pretty much every other person on the show has gotten to tell a few jokes, and Katie Cassidy has pretty decent comic timing and she can snark well. And yet the show gave her all of three funny lines this season. Isabel got more. Sigh.

 

2. Have Oliver or Sara or both give Laurel a bit of a rundown on what happened on the island/afterwards. Part of the problem with Laurel's two uplifting speeches in the last two episodes, and why they haven't gotten the attention/praise that Felicity's speeches have, is that Laurel doesn't know what's going on. So when she says that she knows Oliver better than anyone else, it comes off as fake and unconvincing, and Cassidy knows it (her interviews show that she's been upset that she's been left out of this), which in turn creates problems with the acting.  The Sara speech went a lot better because it included the admission that Laurel didn't know what was going on, but at the same time, that scene would have had a lot more meaning if Laurel, like Quentin earlier in the season, could have known that her sister has actually killed people and conducted medical experiments on them and yet Laurel still loves her anyway.

 

3. Make sure Laurel has a reason to be in each scene she is in, and a clear character goal that she needs to reach at the end of the scene. This has nothing to do with Laurel, and everything to do with Cassidy, but as we keep seeing, unless Laurel has a good reason to be in a scene, and a clear motivation for the end of the scene, the actress can't sell it.  (I was going to list examples but then this post would have become a doctoral dissertation.)

 

4. Tweak the dialogue so that Laurel doesn't come off demanding with the good guys. It's fine for her to sound demanding with the bad guys; actually, she should sound demanding with the bad guys. But very often it's the other way around - Laurel listening and nodding along with the bad guys, and getting sharp and demanding with Oliver, her father, and Sara.

 

5. Keep the character consistent. In just the last two episodes, we've had Laurel demanding to go along with Team Arrow saying she can be useful, followed by a scene where she was useful for about five seconds (hitting/distracting the bad guy), followed by a scene where she was not useful at all, followed by Laurel cheerfully saying that she doesn't need Oliver and she's going to walk over to the precinct even though superpowered bad guys are running all over the place setting fire to things. If she ever needed the Arrow's protection, that was the moment - as shown by Laurel's very next scene, where she needs Sara to save her.

 

This has been the ongoing problem with Laurel: I hate Oliver! I love Oliver! I hate Oliver! I love Tommy! I'm uncertain about Tommy! I love Tommy! I'm sleeping with Oliver! I love Tommy! I love the Hood! The Hood is a killer! I love the Hood! I hate the Hood and will be prosecuting him! I love the Arrow! I'm completely ignoring the Arrow's very existence in this Birds of Prey episode! I feel a special bond with the Arrow!  All happening so rapidly I get a whiplash effect.  The other characters are often written inconsistently as well, but not to this extent.

[Sakura12]

4. Tweak the dialogue so that Laurel doesn't come off demanding with the good guys. It's fine for her to sound demanding with the bad guys; actually, she should sound demanding with the bad guys. But very often it's the other way around - Laurel listening and nodding along with the bad guys, and getting sharp and demanding with Oliver, her father, and Sara.

 

The thing with that is sometimes just the tone of your voice changes what you are saying. Something like "Why do they get to go and not me?" can sound whiny, arrogant, bitchy or just a simple question depending on how it's delivered. I don't know if it's in the script or it's just Cassidy, but the tone of Laurel's voice comes across more bitchy and arrogant than nice and respectful. 

[Zalyn]

GirlWednesday, that blog post is an awesome find ! I'm going to repost in the Felicity thread because it explains the source of the "chemistry" that's attached to Felicity and Oliver / EBR and SA.

 

I completely agree with the lists of things that the writers could do to salvage Laurel as a character.  I would like to add that giving us more of a look into her motivations for becoming an attorney - one of the good ones who helps poor people! - and her sadness and confusion when Sara "died" six years ago would help us to understand her internal state more too.  If they'd been able to establish those two aspects of her character at the start - passionate about helping the less fortunate and big sister - we would have had a solid core to return to.

 

The sad thing is that they could have fit in a few crumbs of dialogue in the first five eps to accomplish this, maybe Det. Lance reminiscing with Laurel about how she didn't leave her room for a week and played Nickelback constantly (insert other artist) after they got the news.  That would have brought in some of the vulnerability J.C. was talking about in her blog post. But instead she immediately got sucked into the Tommy/Oliver triangle with minimal agency.

[quarks]

Sakura12, that's true, but I think to a degree it's both. I'm mostly thinking of her scene back in Blind Spot, where she says to the Arrow, "You're late," and he immediately responds with "Well, the last time you tried to have me arrested."  

 

So not only did the line make her sound entitled and demanding, but the script then immediately reminded us why she has no reason to be entitled and demanding. Change her line to "I wasn't sure you would come," and suddenly, she sounds aware of what she's done in the past and doesn't come across as if she believes the city vigilante should just show up whenever she demands it.

 

I think the original intent of that line was to tie into Oliver's constant lateness problem, but the issue there is that usually it's been Oliver Queen who is late, not the Arrow, because as the Hood/Arrow he's been running around the city instead of showing up to business appointments. So the whole line was off to begin with. 

 

In the previous episode, changing the start of her Oliver speech to go something like this:

 

Oliver: You told Laurel?

 

Laurel: No, Slade told me. But that's not important now. The important thing is that Blood is working for Slade.

 

Everybody: Oh crap.

 

Diggle: I'll go keep an eye on him.

 

Felicity: That just makes it all the more important for us to get this Mirakuru cure. I'll go contact Star Labs.

 

Diggle and Felicity exit the lair, leaving Laurel and Oliver alone to talk. Oliver starts getting ready for the Slade conversation.

 

Laurel: Oliver - I know this isn't the time, but Tommy knew, right?

 

Oliver: Yes.

 

[blah blah]

 

Laurel: You have to fight - not just for me, not just for your friends, but for Tommy.

 

#

 

Accomplishes several things: gets Diggle and Felicity out of the lair so that Laurel can talk to Oliver privately without being rude about it; establishes that Laurel has her priorities straight and can effectively convey information; and shows Laurel can think of others first.

 

I think that last is important: we keep getting told that Laurel is this unselfish do-gooder, but we keep seeing the opposite. I was mostly indifferent to Laurel in the first few episodes until the episode where CRNI was going broke and Laurel's response to Tommy's offer to throw a fundraising party was "No! He's just doing it to sleep with me!" Well, ok, yes Laurel, that's true, but it's also true that if you don't have this fundraiser, about twenty people are going to lose their jobs, not to mention that your clients will suffer, all because you were worried that the billionaire making the offer wanted to sleep with you. And then you ended up sleeping with him anyway and even moving in with him. Sigh.

Edited May 11, 2014 by quarks

[GirlWednesday]

GirlWednesday, that blog post is an awesome find ! I'm going to repost in the Felicity thread because it explains the source of the "chemistry" that's attached to Felicity and Oliver / EBR and SA..

If you like that article, take a look at the archives "arrow Thursdays" - it was Jennifer C who wrote "problem with Felicity Smoak" and one specifically about Laurel Lance.

http://www.arghink.com/2014/02/07/character-and-context-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-laurel-lance/

Edited May 11, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[statsgirl]

I really liked Jennifer Crusie's blogs on Arrow because she not only commented on the episodes, she broke it down in terms of writing why something worked and something else didn't.  I can understand why she gave up this season but I miss her analysis.  Thanks for bringing the links here, GirlWednesday.

 

quarks,  you should be writing for the show.  Your scene give Diggle and Felicity agency, make Laurel smarter and less self-absorbed, and more likable.

 

A really rich guy offering to donate money to your charity because he wants something from you done the right way can be one of the most romantic of set-ups. (I remember it in a book years ago and it still hits me.)  But even if Laurel didn't want to sleep with Tommy, she still should have been savvy enough to know it would have saved CNRI and let her continue to be the do-gooder she believes herself to be.  What I find most annoying about Laurel, other than the way they shoe-horn her in, is that everything in the world, everything, she sees through how it affects her personally.

 

Everyone (including Laurel) should stop describing Laurel as some paragon. Add substance to her motivations. "My bf died saving me so I'm going to hunt the vigilante, oh wait I'm not, I'll date an alderman, his eyes are shifty, need to stalk him and prove that he is bad".

I think one of the hardest things is, when you see something in your mind's eye, to see it as it really is.  (A big reason people stay in bad relationships.)  They decided that Laurel was going to be Oliver's OTP and the Black Canary, they hired a name CW actress, but when it didn't work, they brought in other characters like Felicity and Sara but it seems like they're still hanging on tightly to their original vision.  I think there is a role for Laurel on the show but it's not as Oliver's OTP and it's a long time from being BC.

Edited May 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

quarks, I like your version of the lair scene with Laurel. Her usefullness with the info about Blood was immediately highlighted and you gave her and Oliver a chance for a private moment that was more organic.

 

I really wasn't sure what the writers/EPs were trying to do with that scene. It's her introduction to Team Arrow, so it's a very important scene. And yet it felt like that scene was emphasizing how out of place Laurel was instead of showing how she could be part of the team. The horrible dialogue has already been mentioned up top. I found the blocking strange as well. She literally displaces Felicity from Oliver's side (well, Felicity moves after Laurel walks up close to Oliver) and stands between Oliver and his team. That's not something an actor just does, that's direction. They must have noticed the visual that presented to viewers.

[Danny Franks]

I really wasn't sure what the writers/EPs were trying to do with that scene. It's her introduction to Team Arrow, so it's a very important scene. And yet it felt like that scene was emphasizing how out of place Laurel was instead of showing how she could be part of the team. The horrible dialogue has already been mentioned up top. I found the blocking strange as well. She literally displaces Felicity from Oliver's side (well, Felicity moves after Laurel walks up close to Oliver) and stands between Oliver and his team. That's not something an actor just does, that's direction. They must have noticed the visual that presented to viewers.

 

 

She actually tells them to leave so she can talk to Oliver in private. This is on top of her being unpleasant about Felicity when she was drunk, and the dirty looks she gave her when Felicity grabbed Oliver back in 2x04. Now, I've said before that I'm fine with Laurel not liking Felicity, based on their limited interaction, because the only experiences she's had of her were Felicity commandeering Oliver's attention. But I don't know why the writers think it's a good idea to highlight the fact that Laurel, an unpopular character, doesn't seem to have any time for Felicity, a very popular character.

 

Not unless they want people to dislike Laurel. And, frankly, most of the writing for her suggests they do want that, but then someone goes and gives an interview and puts Laurel over like she's the bestest girl in all the world. And confusion reigns, as it usually does with Laurel Lance.

[calliope1975]

It's very whiplash writing. The whole blackmailing, being rude to 2/3 of Team Arrow, and letting the darkness in stuff seem to be edging toward villainy, which I actually might find intriguing. But all the interviews and weird Laurel is awesome, no really, she is moments don't support that. It just feels like TPTB still don't know what to do with the character, and it shows.

[JenMD]

I really wasn't sure what the writers/EPs were trying to do with that scene. It's her introduction to Team Arrow, so it's a very important scene. And yet it felt like that scene was emphasizing how out of place Laurel was instead of showing how she could be part of the team.

For me, what makes it even worse is they didn't even give us her introduction to the team - that all happened off screen and we just get to hear in passing that she figured it out.  So who'd she call?  How'd Diggle and Felicity react?  What about the first face to face meeting when Laurel got to Verdant?  Just how awkward was it?  Did she tell them about Blood, giving Felicity the chance to verify the intel?  Just what did they all talk about while Oliver was knocked out? Inquiring minds want to know (well, I do, anyway).  Instead, they seemed to be all about the big reveal for Oliver's benefit (and ours*), skipping all of the above that would have provided a world more of information than what we got. 

 

*I admit, when I saw Laurel stroll in, I gasped, hit the pause button and turned to my sister, "Oh Lord No!".  See, I thought Felicity and Diggle called Laurel because she was the only one they thought could get through to him.  And I HATED that idea, but it seemed so like something the writers would do at this point.  I was actually relieved when it played out differently, despite the fact that I thought it was so poorly executed.

[KirkB]

I'm hoping (though not really expecting) that what they're doing is making Laurel unlikable so they can turn her into a villain, which is what they think is awesome about her and why they are so excited about the stuff they're doing now, which so many people don't like. Even when they turns out not to be true I may keep it as my head canon to deal with Laurel scenes later on.

[SmallScreenDiva]

*I admit, when I saw Laurel stroll in, I gasped, hit the pause button and turned to my sister, "Oh Lord No!".

 

HAHAHA! I had the same reaction. The summary had Diggle and Felicity going to "extreme measures" to stop Oliver from surrendering to Slade. I thought that was covered when they approached Waller but when Laurel showed up in the lair, my first thought was "OMG! They really meant extreme measures!" Then, of course, it was revealed she actually reached out to them. 

[Alibelle]

Did you guys see this?

 

Kreisberg: Yeah, I mean, it totally changes everyone's dynamic, having Laurel in on the secret. She has become so much more. Look, I don't think it's any big surprise that we're struggled in places with Laurel as a character -- through no fault of Katie Cassidy, who plays her wonderfully and does everything we ask of her -- but ever since she found out, it's just changed the dynamic, and it's made the show a lot more fun and enjoyable to write. So her storyline in the finale is much closer tied to her father and Sarah. But especially going into Season 3, there's a much more different dynamic in the group. It's really fun to see.

 

It's from this: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/13/arrow-showrunner-teases-a-suprise-outcome-for-season-2-finale

 

I am, honestly, just so surprised that they're aware of it. Since going from the usual interviews, you'd never know, and yet watching the show, it seems so glaring. At least this leaves me sort of mildly, distantly, hopeful that they can fix it?  Because it REALLY SHOULD NOT BE HARD.  On paper, Laurel is twenty times more likable than oversexed college dropout Oliver Queen or her younger sister who slept with her boyfriend and then helped run experiments on unwilling human test subjects before becoming an assassin.

 

The problem with Laurel is that all her problems are her own fault, but there's no real consequences to any of them.  Unless you count the time that she tried to save a filing cabinet from an earthquake and Tommy ended up dead.  But that's Tommy paying for her mistake, not her.  She never has to make any tough choices and her regrets are incredibly superficial, especially when compared to Oliver and Sara.  She is also very brittle and cold, and is dismissive even with people she likes.  I think she could easily fit in the team dynamic as a voice of reason, for instance, someone who can stop by and say, "hey, I would really appreciate it if you didn't take those kinds of risks with yourself because you're my baby sister, and while I agree that this is a terrible situation that needs fixing, we can do it in a way where you're less likely to be hurt.  Because I only have one sister, and you're it. I lost you once, and I never want to go through that again. I love you.  Take a sweater, you're going to get a chest cold."  Obviously the last line is because I'm desperate for Laurel to also have a sense of humor.  Also, she could have a hobby or some interest other than blame and Oliver's love life.  Anything.  Like, Felicity never really talks about what she does in her spare time, but I could easily see her watching sci-fi TV or something whenever she gets a moment off to clear her DVR.  I bet she reads tech blogs because she hates to be uninformed about what's coming and what's possible.  I feel certain that Dig likes to watch a game while drinking a beer.  I know that Oliver loves to work out and fondle arrows in his spare time, and uses his crafting skills to make new types of arrows (look, Oliver's kinda singularly focused, which is part of his charm at this point).  I even know that Quentin likes to cook.  I legit have no idea what Laurel's interests are.  Even if it's COMPLETELY RANDOM and has no relation to anything, like she is not-so-secretly super into tennis and every now and then she pulls an inspirational quote from Andre Agassi's autobiography out of her butt: that would be endearing! It's kind of dorky!  It's relatable!  It's something that normal human people do, randomly like things!

 

The Laurel moments I liked best this season were both from Time of Death:

- when she got a giant smile on her face at the idea of helping out her dad with a dinner party (that was really sweet!)

- when she intuited that Oliver and Sara were together and she got super pissed (that was REALLY UNDERSTANDABLE)

 

Then, of course, she lost me again by humiliating her dad and apologizing to her sister.  Not that it wasn't a sweet, if incredibly overwrought, apology, it's just that it made zero sense in the context of what she knew.  If she had had a screaming fight with Sara about how much it sucked to find out that the two people she loved most were betraying her, and beyond the betrayal just the fact that they were keeping a secret that excluded her, and then she didn't even get to yell at them, she just lost both of them, and how could Sara keep the fact that she was alive a secret? Keep it from Laurel?  It's like losing Sara again because clearly she didn't know her at all, or have the relationship with her that she thought she did.  And if Sara then confessed some of what she went through and Laurel was horrified on her behalf, and then came the tearful apology?  I WOULD HAVE BEEN ALL OVER IT.  And I would have been rooting for Laurel, big time, and wanted to hug her.  Instead, as I often am, I was just left cold and confused about what makes Laurel Lance tick. 

[statsgirl]

 

I am, honestly, just so surprised that they're aware of it

I don't know about what other people have done but I've tweeted him a few times about why Laurel was a problem for me, emphasizing what's in the writing so that he doesn't think I'm a Laurel hater (e.g. Oliver has been lying to Laurel for 7 years but she give a speech where she says she knows him as well as she knows her own name; am I supposed to believe her or think she's delusional?).

 

I'm surprised he listened though.

[calliope1975]

I'm not very optimistic that this writing group can fix Laurel. They knew there was a problem with the character after the first season. Instead of integrating her into the story lines more, they isolated her. They had her be dismissive of Felicity and Diggle repeatedly, go through an incredibly poorly written addiction phase, blackmail her way back into her job, and had to literally be told by the villain of the show that the ex-boyfriend she knows so well is the Arrow. 

 

Combine that with the very gross aspect of sister swapping, and I don't think the character is fixable for me. That was a misstep from the very first episode. I could tolerate her this season because she seemed very much in the background, even when she had a main story. But, I don't feel she earned her way onto Team Arrow wouldn't wish that Diggle and Felicity had to deal with her. 

 

Now, if TIIC are going the villain route, they may have something. 

[Sakura12]

Laurel doesn't make any sense, she has a different personality for whatever storyline they are writing her for the week. Even her drug problem appeared and disappeared depending on the episode. Everyone else has the same personality so it's easier to relate or at least understand where they are coming from. 

[quarks]

This is not the first time the producers have acknowledged a problem with Laurel's character, or at least the fan/critical response to Laurel. They did so last summer, promising that they'd be doing new and exciting things with Laurel that we'd all love. They acknowledged the problem again in February and then now in this interview.

 

And the thing is, the creative choices made for Laurel make sense if we're not really supposed to like the character.  It's in the context of interviews and the show suggesting that we are supposed to like the character that the creative choices don't really make a lot of sense.

[BkWurm1]

I legit have no idea what Laurel's interests are.

 

I used to think drinking wine while she went over her legal briefs but now the closest I have is cutting out paper dolls of The Arrow and making collages while imaging their conversations where Oliver says she's the only one he's ever really loved and Sara tricked him. 

 

So did all the other women. 

Edited May 14, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Alibelle]

Oh, my god, BkWurm1, if they have the guts to really go full-on villain with her and we get to see something like that on screen, I will personally kidnap and blackmail all the Emmys and bring them to Vancouver to hand them out to everyone.

[quarks]

From the Unthinkable thread:

 

Because obviously Oliver doesn't need Laurel.

 

 

 

 

I'm now thinking I'd go even further, and say that Oliver not only didn't need Laurel in these last few episodes, Laurel actively delayed him.

 

In City of Blood, Laurel finally has proof that Blood is working for Slade. Great! Let's rush on this, Laurel! Slade has already kidnapped one of your friends and murdered your ex-boyfriend's mother. Instead, Laurel wastes time chatting before getting to the point. 

 

Later, she is helpful - she distracts a bad guy by hitting him on the head - but less than fifteen seconds later she needs to be rescued AGAIN.

 

In Streets of Fire, Oliver has to spend the first minute of the show talking her through shooting his bow.  She then takes off and...that's about it for their interactions, although Oliver is worried about her.

 

In Unthinkable, Quentin jumps into a strategy session to announce that Laurel has been kidnapped. Now, ok, it's pretty hilarious that no one in the room, other than Quentin, wants to run after her. But it's a bit less hilarious that because Laurel has been kidnapped, again, Team Arrow is wasting time discussing the kidnapping instead of going after bad guys.

 

Later, Oliver puts Felicity up as bait, partly to stop Slade and save the city, partly to save Laurel. The one thing I think the Laurel kidnapping did do was help sell the Oliver/Felicity dialogue to Slade - but the end result is, as Guggenheim just noted, Oliver put the woman he loves up as bait (unthinkable!) partly to save a woman that he keeps needing to rescue all the time.

 

Sigh.

 

And yet we've just got anvils that this character will be the Black Canary.

 

The photos of Team Arrow that include Cassidy and Colton Haynes look really cute. I just hope that whatever role Laurel has with Team Arrow is not "kidnap victim."

[Carrie Ann]

Oh my, I'm actually LOL-ing. So, apparently all you need to do is feel real sorry for yourself for a few months, and boom, superhero-ready? That was the weakest crucible ever.

[GirlWednesday]

I have resigned myself to having her on my show. If the writers were smart, She should be the link to non-hero stuff. Alerting the team to baddies, etc. without taking up valuable arrow lair real estate.

[calliope1975]

So, apparently all you need to do is feel real sorry for yourself for a few months, and boom, superhero-ready?

 

 

Then give me my cape and cowl because I am clearly ready! Though, I haven't been an alcoholic or thrown barware, but I do enjoy some wine. One time I dropped a glass and it broke - does that count?

[GirlWednesday]

But did it trigger an island flashback? Even a flashback to an all inclusive vacation? Superhero skills required are obviously pouting, whiny, throwing glassware that trigger tropical island flashbacks.

[icandigit]

 

I have resigned myself to having her on my show. If the writers were smart, She should be the link to non-hero stuff. Alerting the team to baddies, etc. without taking up valuable arrow lair real estate.

Yeah.I'm fine with that. I have no problem that. Hate watching Laurel is part of the fun of Arrow for me at this point.

[Danny Franks]

Katie Cassidy thinks Laurel will definitely be suiting up in S3: "Season 2 was her island, and now she's ready to fight." -Source

 

 

 

I mean... come on. Just... stop being silly now, Arrow folks. 

[pootlus]

Ahaha, I have so much love for George of the Jungle (and it has nothing to do with an extremely in-shape Brendan Fraser being practically naked for the entire film), thanks Danny Franks.

 

Yeah Katie is definitely watching a different show.  Mind you she thinks Laurel and Oliver are soulmates, and that she herself is some fucking awesome method actor like De Niro, so I'm not sure we should be taking her view of things particularly seriously.

[catrox14]

From the spoilers thread

 

The problem is that they've already shown with Felicity, Sara and Nissa that they can write good female characters. Which points to KC, and yet there's some glaring inconsistencies in the writing for her, or at least between what they say about here and what they write for her.

    It's starting to look deliberate!

 

If this is a suggestion that the writing team is deliberately trying to ruin the Laurel character because they don't like KC, I don't buy that. 

 

I can't see  what good it would do for  Kreisberg and Guggenheim, et al who apparently by their own comments really like KC and apparently think she is doing the job they have asked of her, to passive-aggressively attempt to deliberately write her poorly.  I'm sorry, but that dog don't hunt for me.  If they don't like the actress they could just writer her out of the show,  pay off her contract and move on.

 

I think the disconnect is that they write what they write, the actor puts voice to the words, and yet gives no nuance, shading or internal life to the character. IMO, every other female character in this show be it hero or villain or regular citizen IMO has been well characterized beyond the page. 

I don't care if they put Caity Lotz in the BC outfit or not, she IS both Sara Lance and the Black Canary on the show because of the work the actor does to bring life to the character because let's face it, Sara has had to deliver some stinker lines herself.  I don't care if they have Felicity being quippy or serious or say ridiculous things like 'Please save Oliver!" when they are rushing out precisely to save Oliver, she IS Felicity because EBR has given her life.  When Susanna Thompson just stood there next to Oliver on the stage or sat across from him in their home or out having Big Belly Burger and didn't say a word, she IS Moira Queen. Even Helena was well embodied by DeGauw in the first episode even if her line readings were bizarre. But when she came back this year, she was 100% better. And  I really don't think the writers spent much time trying to FIX Helena either.

 

IMO, the writers and showrunners are trying to find something, anything that will work for Cassidy.  And, personally, I think they actually fell on the sword last year by saying they didn't do well by the character instead of pushing it back on Cassidy, which I find ironic because even though I didn't like Laurel that much, she was what she was and I could live with that.  But this season, they have actually made it worse because they kept trying to fix something that I don't think was necessarily broken in the first place.  And I think what they think they need to fix is LAUREL LANCE = Black Canary so they have had to change Laurel and create some really weak 'crucible'. And it doesn't help that Cassidy can't really seem to emote or line read with any kind of nuance or depth. IMO even though she was given the addiction storyline, she did nothing compelling with it.  

[Pyramid]

 

If this is a suggestion that the writing team is deliberately trying to ruin the Laurel character because they don't like KC, I don't buy that.

Nope, it wasn't a serious suggestion, I was making with the funny. Poorly apparently!

 

And I pretty much agree with you, but I've bashing KC so much lately that I felt bad and was reaching for some kind of explanation that didn't involve her being so utter shit at her job!

[Sakura12]

In season 1 they admitted the problem was Laurel's disconnect from the show's main plot, that what they said they were going to fix. But somehow that translated into season 2 as making Laurel so disconnected from the show's main plot she didn't even appear in multiple episodes and no one cared, then their apparent solution was to throw Laurel front and center into the show with no rhyme or reason for being there in the last 4 episodes of the season. That was problem solved in their minds. 

 

So I have no idea if what goes on their heads is the same thing that is being written for the show. They also did the same thing with bringing Sara back. They said in the beginning Sara was part of Laurel's journey into becoming the Black Canary. When did that happen? The sister's barely spoke the entire season, Laurel didn't care at all or even mention the woman in black, then she didn't even find out her sister was the Canary until episode 19, they never talked about her being the Canary until episode 22.  So how exactly was Sara part of Laurel's journey? Did they think Sara just handing over her jacket was the journey? They seem to not know what journey means when it comes to Laurel. 

[statsgirl]

 

she didn't even appear in multiple episodes and no one cared

Worse, a lot of people didn't even notice when she wasn't in an episode.  The rest of the story seemed to flow much more smoothly.

 

Very little of the Laurel Lance saga makes sense to me.  Maybe they brought back Sara as the Canary because in some part of their brains, it twigged that KC was far from being ready to take up the Canary cry, and then CL did such a good job with it that it became harder and harder to think KC could replace her.  (This is assuming that the EPs have any kind of a reality check.)

 

Giving up on a plan is one of the hardest things to do, but after Caity Lotz, I don't see how they could reasonably make Laurel into the Black Canary.  And she never worked as Oliver's love interest, even before Emily and Caity came on board.

[KirkB]

The thing is, with everything that's happened I could buy Laurel training with Oliver and becoming a costumed vigilante, just not the Canary. Make up a new identity for her or co-opt someone else's, but leave Sara as the Canary and everything would be fine.

Edited May 17, 2014 by KirkB

[quarks]

They said in the beginning Sara was part of Laurel's journey into becoming the Black Canary. When did that happen? 

 

 

To be fair, Laurel telling her sister to go help the other hostages and not to kill Helena were her two heroic moments of the season, and Laurel apparently was inspired by the sight of her sister carrying a little kid out of a burning building.

 

Otherwise, Sakura, this is such a good question that it made me really think about the overall narrative of the season. The result is a long post that I'm moving over to the Target Practice thread. 

[quarks]

In the Target Practice thread, the question was, is Laurel fixable?

 

If the plan is to make Laurel Black Canary, and the last episode certainly seemed to suggest that, then I would start off the season by establishing Laurel as someone who can actually fight without needing Oliver and Sara to rescue her. In fact, pull a fast play on the audience with this one: have Laurel be walking down the street, right past a Mysterious Door guarded by Two Goons.  Have Laurel say something funny or flirtatious, then kick the guy starting a fight and run off, goons following her.  Have them tackle her and tie her up.  Cut to another Team Arrow person showing up; fight ensues. Laurel sits up: "Was that enough of a distraction?"  Team Arrow person grins back.  "I think so."  Then have Laurel grin back and say - "Wait, it looks like I forgot something --" and have her use one of the goons weapons against someone attacking her from the right.

 

Immediately establishes Laurel as useful.

 

If the plan is not to make Laurel Black Canary, immediately establish her as someone who can be useful to Team Arrow by having her pass on info about some client, or asking for their help. Then have her help by showing up at the end of the episode, legal files in hand, smiling and saying, "Oh, your punishment has barely begun. Trust me. Think Arrow is intimidating? Wait til you see me in the courtroom."

 

Regardless of how that goes:

 

1. Let Laurel accomplish things. Any things. The biggest problem with Laurel last season was that by the end of episode 13, supposedly the Laurel arc/crucible, she wasn't just the only person on the hero side other than Thea who hadn't done anything heroic, she was the only character on the show who hadn't accomplished a single goal, including the bad guys.  It's fine for protagonists to fail - they should fail, a lot, so that we don't assume that they are going to win. But there's fail, and there's fail fail fail fail fail. 

 

2. Give Laurel some funny lines. Cassidy has decent comic timing. Use it.

 

3. Let Laurel be friends with other people on the show.

 

4. Be very cautious with any jealousy/rivalry angles. Some of that is bound to come anyway, and the show is going to have to deal with it, but be very cautious.

[Lokiberry]

Yes, but all of the above requires KC to act, and possibly wipe the smug/bitchy expression off her face. I'm just not seeing a future in it.

[SonofaBiscuit]

If the EPs really think that the way to solve their Laurel Lance problem is to include her in the action, why in the world did they go about it in the way that they did?  Instead of having Oliver willingly tell her that he is the Arrow, we had his nemesis do it.  Instead of Oliver inviting Laurel to stay in the Arrow Cave, we basically had him tell her, "three is a good number and we're going to stick with that, so thanks but no thanks."  What I'm seeing on my screen is that Oliver really just doesn't want to deal with Laurel, but she's not getting the clue.  It's so bizarre because from listening to the EPs talk, I get the impression that they aren't going to stop until I like Laurel, dammit, but it seems like the writing in the show is intentionally trying to make me dislike her.   

[Sakura12]

Instead of having Oliver willingly tell her that he is the Arrow, we had his nemesis do it.  Instead of Oliver inviting Laurel to stay in the Arrow Cave, we basically had him tell her, "three is a good number and we're going to stick with that, so thanks but no thanks." What I'm seeing on my screen is that Oliver really just doesn't want to deal with Laurel, but she's not getting the clue.  It's so bizarre because from listening to the EPs talk, I get the impression that they aren't going to stop until I like Laurel, dammit, but it seems like the writing in the show is intentionally trying to make me dislike her.

 

They also seem to think that Sara just handing over her jacket makes Laurel a super hero. So who knows what the writers are thinking. 

 

The rest of the team was formed by one of the members telling someone about the team which is kind of how you join a team. Oliver told Diggle, Felicity and Roy, Felicity told Barry and Sara knew about the green hood from their time on the island, but it was Oliver that showed her the lair and introduced her to his team. The Arrow also let Quentin be an honorary member of the team. No body invited Laurel or looks like they wanted to invite her. Even Sara didn't say anything to her own sister. I wish they could make a sign "Members only, No Laurel" 

[BkWurm1]

Brought this over from TWoP.  This isn't hating, this is pure confusion.

 

And training aside - why exactly does Laurel (the character) want to be a crime fighter anyway?  There is zero motivation to date, unless you count being jealous of your sister and ex-boyfriend.  An attorney should believe that the courtroom is the place to deal with criminals. And for most of the show, she has.

 

 

This is the thing I can't get past.  They can fake the skills to some degree and ask the audience to ignore KC too slender build, but why oh why oh why would Laurel end up as a vigilante when nothing in her life even hints toward that direction?  She has a job and supposedly the passion to do that job.  She's probably going to be promoted into a position of even more power to do her job and she has ample resources (the Arrow) to contact if she ever feels that justice can't be done through the justice system.  She has no reason to transform her life from professional to pugilist.

 

She doesn't even have habits or hobbies that would fold into the practical side of a masked street fighter.  She's not a thrill seeker or an adrenaline junkie.  She's not a fitness nut or a former gymnast or judo champion.  Her father is a cop but she never hinted that she wished she'd joined the force or desired to be on the front lines of crime fighting.  Laurel has no special skills be it guns or knives or arrows.  Oliver doesn't need her help, he may have lost Sara but he still has his team and Diggle to watch his back.  Yes, I do think Daddy Diggle is going to reevaluate the risks he is willing to take but even if he actually walked away and left Oliver vulnerable, we have Roy already there to step up his game.

 

Laurel has had a taste of what it's like to be out on the front lines facing the bad guys directly.  She didn't like it.  She thought she should be there (but didn't even have the common sense to dress the part) but as quick as she could, she got out of there (sensibly since she had nothing to offer IMO)  Yes the mirakuru strokes were impossible enemies to fight but the show didn't even take the opportunity to show that she had any kind of hidden talent or desire to face any of the other threats out there that night.

 

So in summary, Laurel has no motivation to become the Canary, no current skills, no reason to go out and acquire those skills, and no aptitude (mentally or physically) for the position.  What does she have?  A jacket? 

 

Making Laurel BC makes IMO no sense nor IMO will it ever make sense.  The show had two years to change that and instead all they've done is reinforce Laurel as the farthest thing from a masked hero as possible.

[KirkB]

Well said, BkWurm1. The only thing I can think of, if the EP's do go that route, is that seeing Starling nearly destroyed (again) and all the risk Oliver and his allies took to save it has inspired Laurel to change the way she does things. I can see it motivating her, but given the character I would think it would motivate her to become super-lawyer rather than superhero.

Edited May 23, 2014 by KirkB