Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[catrox14]

Well, at least I feel redeemed that Laurel is the most selfish person to ever selfish. She literally admitted that she couldn't tell Lance because she can't lose anyone else.

/head desk head desk headndesk

[BkWurm1]

It seems to me that only now has Laurel contrived a reason why she can't tell anyone that Sara is dead -  that she was mixed up in bad stuff.  But huh?

 

Sara's dead. 

 

Is it just a pride thing?  That Laurel doesn't want strangers to know?The need to keep the shady stuff secret has gone down with her death but the bigger question is how would her being dead expose that she'd been part of the LoA?  The LoA isn't going to take out an ad.  Nyssa was told so it's not like they were trying to hide Sara's death from the them (which would have actually been smart I guess).   Quentin knew who Nyssa was and he knew Sara was with her.  He knows Sara's secrets so Laurel isn't protecting her dad by hiding the truth. 

 

It's frustrating to no end to be told Quentin couldn't handle Sara's death.  If it's a medical thing, tell him at a hospital. That's the only reason she's given as to why she can't tell her father.  Now if the writers used their tiny little brains, they could tap into worries about Lance spiraling out of control into the bottle over his renewed grief but they haven't gone there and now after soooo long, if they do go there, I will cry  foul. 

[bethy]

Well, her concern about her father doesn't extend to not bawling him out about being bad at his job in a station full of people he's in charge of, so...

Although as has been pointed out, it's not really so much about concern for her father as it is concern for herself.

I get from KC's take on her scenes that I'm supposed to feel like Laurel's being heroic and self(?)-sacrificing by not telling Quentin, and yet, she's NOT.

I seriously do not get how they are writing for this character. Is the scene in the police station meant to convey that she's tough and good at her job? Then the sad scenes at the cemetery and with her mother meant to show me how much Sara's death is effecting her? I feel like they're trying to build good will for the character, but there's this huge disconnect for me.

[Sakura12]

Laurel's selfishness is at least her one consistent trait. The rest of her traits go all over the place depending on the episode. However caring or heroic are never one of them. 

 

Do the writers honestly think we are going to feel bad for Laurel for keeping Sara's death from her father? He's her father, he should get to mourn the daughter he thought he lost once before. He should be able to give her a proper burial and be involved in finding the person that killed her. I still stand behind my fanwank that Sara was a daddy's girl and was close with Quentin when she was little. He needs to know. Quentin tough, like Sara. He should be able to handle it.

 

Unless of course the writers decided to sacrifice him at the alter of Laurel as well. Then he will die once he finds out. Then Laurel can have more motivation to become her sister. 

Edited December 11, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Unless of course the writers decided to sacrifice him at the alter of Laurel as well. Then he will die once he finds out. Then Laurel can have more motivation to become her sister.

 

I'd say that's a good bet

[dtissagirl]

I'm really afraid at this point, the only way they can justify this storyline of Laurel not telling Quentin because OH NOES HIS HEART is if they actively write it OH NOES HIS HEART. And then Laurel will have the narrative victory of being right about it. Ugh.

[writersblock51]

i think Quentin dying  - or being close to it - upon hearing the news of Sara's death will definitely be Laurel's impetus for donning the leather and 32 buckles for "justice."

 

If the scenes at the cemetery were meant to illicit sympathy from me for Laurel, then the show failed. Miserably. I was so disgusted by her shoddy logic to Thea and Dinah that as much as I disliked the character before, I despise her now.

There is nothing noble about keeping her father in the dark about this.  There is nothing heroic about telling her mother but then swearing her mother to secrecy about it.  There is nothing brave about pushing off the talk she needs to have with Quentin when it's really, always has been, about Laurel's feelings. She has removed her parents' rights to grieve and bury their child because she, Laurel, decided her fears were more important.

 

She's selfish, period. And the consequences should be more than Dinah giving her a 'You make the killer pay' speech. What the hell was that, anyway??? 

 

And if Laurel was sooooooooooooooo hellbent on finding the killer, why on earth hasn't she been working on that AND using the resources of the DA's office and the SCPD to help out?

 

She's NOT looking for the killer.  She's delusional about her motives and justification.  Her sorrow rings hollow.

 

The show then expects people to tune in for her trilogy (regardless of how much screen time she actually gets, it doesn't matter to me) based on this characterization that they've built?

 

No verson of comic book Black Canary is like this, either.

Edited December 11, 2014 by writersblock51

[KirkB]

I have to imagine that sooner or later, Quentin is going to find out. Whether Dinah caves in and tells him, Laurel slips up in the costume and he sees her, or he gets suspicious enough and has her grave dug up, he'll learn the truth. Does Laurel really think that his daughter being dead (for real this time) and the fact that every person in his life has been lying about it for months, is going to be good for his heart?

 

And sadly, those of you talking about Laurel's selfishness are right. It is her one consistent character trait.

[Carrie Ann]

It's really baffling to me that the writers would think viewers would take Laurel's side on this. Why would anyone sympathize with her decision not to tell Quentin? His health is the flimsiest of excuses; the odds of him actually just like keeling over in front of her are preeeetttty slim, and even if he were to fall off the wagon or lose it for awhile or whatever, that's not on her to control.

 

And that's the real reason. She can't stand not being in control of everything at all times. So she's controlling who knows about Sara and how they react to it. She can't lose anyone else, and that trumps Quentin's right to know about his younger, far superior daughter's death. That Dinah cosigned her on that is despicable. So yeah, now I hate every iteration of Dinah Lance on this show.

[bethy]

i think Quentin dying  - or being close to it - upon hearing the news of Sara's death will definitely be Laurel's impetus for donning the leather and 32 buckles for "justice."

 

I'm somehow now tickled by the image I have in my head of Laurel all, "I'm so ANGRY, no SAD, no WORRIED ABOUT MY DAD, no AFRAID TO LOSE ANYONE ELSE, no... Oh! A costume!  How tight can I get the black leather? How many BUCKLES can I get on it?! I will look so badass when those people in the Arrow Cave whose team I'm NOT on finally actually find Sara's killer and I'm able to extract my VENGENCE, no JUSTICE, no SADNESS, no...."

[Sakura12]

Alex Kingston's Dinah Lance has always been pointless. Now she's another to join the suddenly acting stupid club to prop up Laurel to be BC.

[lizonthefritz]

I'm really afraid at this point, the only way they can justify this storyline of Laurel not telling Quentin because OH NOES HIS HEART is if they actively write it OH NOES HIS HEART. And then Laurel will have the narrative victory of being right about it. Ugh.

While I'm fairly sure you're right that Laurel will be proven right by having Quentin's heart give out when he finally finds out his daughter is dead, if the writers of this show would only have thought one step further - and let Laurel do the same - her choice to keep the secret was always going to be INCREDIBLY STUPID.

 

Because there is no way she can keep the secret forever, so every day since Sara's death happened has had Laurel playing Russian roulette with her father's health. She's certain that Quentin can't take the news, so the only responsible thing to do would be to control the circumstances under which he's told. To do nothing and just hope that he doesn't find out makes her seem both callous and dimwitted.

[Ariah]

We actually had a similar situation in real life: my uncle died suddenly and it came as a shock to the whole family (I still cannot fathom he's actually gone). The problem was, my other uncle had a stroke a few weeks before and he didn't fully recover. For the fear of another stroke, we kept the news from him (it did help that he is now partly paralyzed and cannot move) till he was greenlighted by the doctors.

 

The news were broken to him one Sunday morning and he took them relatively fine (no stroke).

 

So, as much as I understand the motivation behind Laurel's actions, I think it's much too extreme now and borderline riddiculous - there was a German film about a boy pretending for his mother that East Germany was still in existance because she went into coma just before it broke apart and woke up in Democratic Europe... And that film was a comedy.

[wonderwall]

To be honest, at this point, Laurel keeping Sara's death from Quentin is just plain selfish. Because even after everything he's been through, after telling Laurel that secrets hurt more than the truth, after people told her to tell Quentin the truth, not telling him is just plain cruel. But Laurel can't see that because she's being selfish. 

[Ariah]

True, Laurel's extremely selfish at this point. She wants to keep the secret, but at the same time, she wants the world to know she suffers and she's struggling heroically. She craves appreciation for her actions - and now that Dinah gave her the said appreciation, she can continue on her quest.

 

This makes me wonder if she'll make Oliver's sacrifice all about herself (that he took the revenge from her, that he hid the truth from her, that he left HER ) - but that's a discussion for another thread I guess. Plus, I may get to critical and we don't want that here.

[wonderwall]

I don't think she craves appreciation, more like validation for her vengeful feelings. Along with that though, I think keeping this a secret is tearing Laurel apart, maybe that's why she burst out "Sara's dead!" every chance she got. Although I don't think the latter part was shown properly on screen. It requires a little fanwank to kind of understand why Laurel was being a blabbermouth last episode. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[insubordination]

It kind of makes Quentin look dumb. He's a captain and he can't figure out anything's up? Alex Kingston knew immediately. I'm really not getting the purpose of Laurel's actions here.

[calliope1975]

It kind of makes Quentin look dumb. He's a captain and he can't figure out anything's up? Alex Kingston knew immediately. I'm really not getting the purpose of Laurel's actions here.

 

I hope he does know. Laurel's acting super shady and that backpacking line was lame, and Quentin's not an idiot. Back to Laurel though, does she plan on never telling him? Ever? How long does she think this can play out?

[Starfish35]

does she plan on never telling him? Ever? How long does she think this can play out?

Exactly. Twenty years from now...."oh Sara's fine Dad, she's trekking to the South Pole. I'm sure she'll call when she gets service".

[KirkB]

Or maybe Slade will show up at Quentin's door and tell him.

Edited December 12, 2014 by KirkB

[calliope1975]

Or, does she think that if she does find and kill the murderer, that it will then be okay to tell him? "Dad. Sara's dead, but it's totally okay because I killed the person who killed her and I'm now dressing in leather with a crapton of buckles. It's all good."

 

But I do like the idea of Slade busting out of his island prison to run and tell Quentin Sara is dead. Start up the Truth Telling Tour 2015 off right. 

[Starfish35]

But I do like the idea of Slade busting out of his island prison to run and tell Quentin Sara is dead. Start up the Truth Telling Tour 2015 off right.

Ahahahahaha yeah ok I can see that.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Starfish35

[Gwen-Stacys]

I hope he does know. Laurel's acting super shady and that backpacking line was lame, and Quentin's not an idiot. Back to Laurel though, does she plan on never telling him? Ever? How long does she think this can play out?

The backpacking thing was lie for Dinah, not Quentin. He thinks she's off doing things for LOA and that's why he hasn't heard anything from her. So that's not him being dumb, that was Laurel scrambling for a cover story for her mother.

 

The writers are going to drag this out and make it a SWEEPS issue, I bet. That's a CW thing, making characters look unnecessarily awful and OOC for the sake of plot!

[Ariah]

Or, does she think that if she does find and kill the murderer, that it will then be okay to tell him? "Dad. Sara's dead, but it's totally okay because I killed the person who killed her and I'm now dressing in leather with a crapton of buckles. It's all good."

 

But I do like the idea of Slade busting out of his island prison to run and tell Quentin Sara is dead. Start up the Truth Telling Tour 2015 off right. 

 

On the other hand, now it's virtually impossible for Laurel to get her revenge: what she's going to do when the truth comes out? Kill Thea? Try to kill Malcolm? (oh yes, please, let her try. That's one fight I'd like to see... though i'd have to play it in slow motion, because it would be too fast to register otherwise).

 

Any culprit is beyong Laurel's reach. She can only - on knowing the truth - turn against the general crime population of Starling City. Honor her sister's memory by actually bringing criminals to justice. I hope she'll realize that...

[MaddieBlu]

I do think Laurel not telling her father about Sara is very selfish & stupid. I remember MG said that in episode 9 something would happen that requires Laurel to put on the BC suit in episode 10. I'm guessing it was the scene with her mom but I felt NOTHING in that scene & it was so bad! The motivation is not there. I don't buy it. That being said I'm looking forward to her BC arc. Maybe it will make her more interesting & I've been waiting on this for the longest. So far it has been a hot mess but I'm trying to have faith in the writers.

[catrox14]

Am I the only one that heard

Laurel: She was backpacking through Europe near the base of Mt Tibidaybo

Quentin: It's Tibidabo

Just me?

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[KirkB]

Now that I think about it, it might actually be more amusing for Laurel to eventually break down and tell her father Sara is dead, only for Quentin to turn around and tell her that he's known almost the entire time. Then depending on the mood they wanted to set they could either say he was trying to protect her because he didn't think she knew or he was angry she had been lying to him.

[Sakura12]

At this point I'd believe ghostSara visited Quentin to tell him she died because Laurel is such a failure as an older sister. 

[TanyaKay]

Well, at least I feel redeemed that Laurel is the most selfish person to ever selfish. She literally admitted that she couldn't tell Lance because she can't lose anyone else.

/head desk head desk headndesk

I am sad that Laurel's mom did not call on her selfishness but I guess Laurel got that for her mom so they were alike that way. Plus the whole "Make them suffer" line was so fake I was wondering if Alex Kingston actually shuddered saying those lines Edited December 17, 2014 by TanyaKay

[statsgirl]

Now that I think about it, it might actually be more amusing for Laurel to eventually break down and tell her father Sara is dead, only for Quentin to turn around and tell her that he's known almost the entire time. Then depending on the mood they wanted to set they could either say he was trying to protect her because he didn't think she knew or he was angry she had been lying to him.

He can't be doing it to protect her because that weakens Laurel and this whole season is supposed to be about how strong she is.

 

He can't be angry because Laurel is all he's got left.  Sara's dead, Dinah's moved on, and his whole world is Laurel and the police station. And his partner, the Arrow, who is currently dead now too, although Quentin doesn't know that either.

 

I don't think there's any way they can write this and save Laurel's character.

[insubordination]

 

Plus the whole "Make them suffer" line was so fake I was wondering b if Alex Kingston actually shuddered saying those lines

 

Not that AK played much of a character to begin with, but I found they just threw her under a bus to fuel Laurel's 'journey' in that scene. How many times have they done that now? 

[Sakura12]

Dinah was thrown under a bus, Sara was tossed in the garbage and Tommy was impaled by a building that Laurel stupidly refused to leave. How many more people will have to suffer so Laurel can have her "journey"? Quentin will probably have a heart attack when Laurel finally decides to tell him a year later that his baby girl is dead (maybe he'll be happy to join the daughter that cares). Fueling Laurel even more to run around hitting people. 

 

Also, how exactly is Laurel taking boxing lessons and running around hitting people for no good reason, honoring Sara? Honoring her would be using all the resources she has a DA with a Captain of Police father and a vigilante to find the person that murdered her sister. She's not doing any of that. Why would I want her putting on a similar outfit (adding a bajillion buckles) and putting Black in front of Sara's name? She's done nothing to earn the right to honor Sara and hasn't shown me a real reason or motivation to why she'd want too. Being angry and wanting to hit people is not a good reason to become a hero.

 

She needs to choose a different name (I don't care what her name is), she doesn't deserve Sara's. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Sakura12

[TanyaKay]

Not that AK played much of a character to begin with, but I found they just threw her under a bus to fuel Laurel's 'journey' in that scene. How many times have they done that now?

Everyone who interacts with her gets thrown under the bus or gets impaled - literally, like Tommy. Even Oliver acts like an idiot and act all OOC when he interacts with her for more than 5 minutes in an episode.

Edited December 22, 2014 by TanyaKay

[tv echo]

What happened to KC's boxing muscles?

 

Katie Cassidy gets cheeky in a teeny polka dot bikini as she hits the beach in Miami with her best friends
By HELEN ZHAO PUBLISHED: 21:45 EST, 20 December 2014 | UPDATED: 03:45 EST, 21 December 2014
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2882230/Katie-Cassidy-gets-cheeky-teeny-polka-dot-bikini-hits-beach-Miami-best-friends.html

[tessaray]

What happened to KC's boxing muscles?

 

Katie Cassidy gets cheeky in a teeny polka dot bikini as she hits the beach in Miami with her best friends

By HELEN ZHAO PUBLISHED: 21:45 EST, 20 December 2014 | UPDATED: 03:45 EST, 21 December 2014

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2882230/Katie-Cassidy-gets-cheeky-teeny-polka-dot-bikini-hits-beach-Miami-best-friends.html

 

This article also includes the Buckle Canary picture.  Every time I see it, it bugs me.  Black on black only minimally disguises her thin legs. :-(  Normally I don't like commenting on women's body types but sheesh... super heroes/comic book heroes need calf muscles.

 

ETA:  There's no doubt that Katie is a very attractive woman and I'm glad she looks healthy in those pictures. I just wish she were a little more muscular in certain spots.  :-)

Edited December 22, 2014 by tessaray

[DrSpaceman10]

This article also includes the Buckle Canary picture.  Every time I see it, it bugs me.  Black on black only minimally disguises the thinnest legs I've seen outside a famine relief commercial.  :-(  (Normally I don't like commenting on women's body types but sheesh... super heroes/comic book heroes need calf muscles.

 

I think it's hard to build calf muscle, some people are just genetically predisposed to having smaller calves. It doesn't mean they're skipping leg day or that their legs are weak.

[wonderwall]

An interesting view on why Laurel has been failing as a character from a person who doesn't hate laurel, and I actually quite agree with this analysis: 

The issues with Laurel’s journey have been discussed at length and for me, they have nothing to with Olicity. Personally, I don’t want Laurel’s evolution to be tied into a male character. I don’t want her to get Oliver because she’s the BC and he comes with the leather outfit and mask. BC is sooo much more than GA’s girlfriend and to reduce that to being one of the goals seems like a real slap in the face for such an amazing character.

So, I’m looking at the show, and seeing them nail Oliver’s journey, but not Laurel’s and I have to ask myself why. The answer to me is pretty simple. Oliver came back from the island into a circle of people who allowed him to show different sides of himself. Laurel has been left on that island almost exclusively since S1. We see the hero’s journey through other people’s eyes as much as we see it through the hero’s. Laurel has been very isolated in the story telling. They gave her a coworker friend in S1, but took her away. They gave her Tommy (which worked so well to humanize her and give you an insight into her vulnerabilities) but they took that away. Sure, she had her dad, but much like Thea and Moira wasn’t enough in the first couple of episodes to give us really foothold on Oliver, Detective Lance wasn’t enough to give us a real simpatico feeling for Laurel. Family drew out an aspect of Laurel and Oliver, but not all the things we needed to grow a bond with them. Oliver had that rectified in the shape of Diggle, Felicity and Roy. Laurel never did… or at least, she’s just starting to with Ted Grant.

 

This vacuum around Laurel, IMHO, is why so many people think she sucks… pun totally intended on that one. ;) There isn’t much gradation about Laurel - she’s all one thing, and then there is a sharp gear shift and she’s all another. Angry Laurel, straight into broken Laurel, right back into plucky Laurel. The gear shifts just grind. Why? Because there isn’t that grease to smooth them out, the people in her life to allow her little nuances to make those segue ways less jarring. Consequently we’re often left with whiplash when spending any time with her and what compounds that issue is the fact that she’s a woman, and as a woman, looking to see another woman’s story unfold, it’s just… well, unsatisfying. And that’s totally not something I want!

Laurel’s story needs to be more circular, more layered, less cause and effect and the empathy for her will grow. I’m pretty excited to see what her story is going to look like once she is in the fold of Team Arrow. She’ll have the opportunity to interact and react to multiple personalities and we’ll be able to see different sides to her, small, humanizing sides… hopefully. Laurel basically HAS to work in the context of Team Arrow. These upcoming episodes are uber important for her and I’m rooting for her. - Source

 

I actually really like this analysis. Also, I've been thinking and a good way, imo, to integrate Laurel more is for her to do her own thing, get her ass kicked, Team Arrow witnesses said ass kicking and are willing to help her because she's as stubborn as Oliver and when she sets her mind to something she doesn't rest until she gets it. So team Arrow are willing to help her, Laurel accepts the help graciously and is grateful that they want to. I want Laurel to be nice to the team and actually communicate with them and not talk at them and giving them orders. I think this would be a good way to bring her in without adding anymore vitriol towards the character. 

Edited January 3, 2015 by wonderwall

[SonofaBiscuit]

Laurel basically HAS to work in the context of Team Arrow.

 

 

One of the major problems here is that many people who dislike Laurel don't want her anywhere near Team Arrow.  I realize that to make Laurel a relevant character, they have to have her interacting with Diggle, Felicity, and Oliver, but honestly, that's the last place I want to see her.  This is why Laurel will never work for me.  I don't want to see her interacting with Team Arrow trio, but when she is in her own storyline interacting only with Ted, her mom, or her dad, I resent her for taking precious minutes away from storylines I actually care about.  They're damned if they do and damned if they don't, basically.

[wonderwall]

One of the major problems here is that many people who dislike Laurel don't want her anywhere near Team Arrow.  I realize that to make Laurel a relevant character, they have to have her interacting with Diggle, Felicity, and Oliver, but honestly, that's the last place I want to see her.  This is why Laurel will never work for me.  I don't want to see her interacting with Team Arrow trio, but when she is in her own storyline interacting only with Ted, her mom, or her dad, I resent her for taking precious minutes away from storylines I actually care about.  They're damned if they do and damned if they don't, basically.

I think that if they start to make Laurel more humble, we'll be able to deal with her working with team arrow. Right now she has this whole thing where she's pretty much all "i'm right and you're wrong" and she just sits on a high horse with her holier than thou attitude that it just makes us want to not be around Team Arrow because she treats them like underlings. I want them to soften Laurel after TA chews her out about her cavalier attitude about things, I want them to make her be more humble and caring and thoughtful. She can GROW. But the writers don't seem to want to make her do that. Hopefully the next three episodes shows Laurel in a positive light. 

 

God, as much as I'm indifferent towards Laurel and wouldn't mind booting her off of the show, I'm still looking to want to like her. It's going to be a really really tough sell and I don't have much faith in the writers and KC, but she's always going to be a part of the show and I just hate that Laurel brings it down for me. I watch Arrow in spite of Laurel, so if they make me like her, I think Arrow would then be a better show all around. That doesn't mean I want her to be in the spotlight though. A likable Laurle in the background is all I want. 

[calliope1975]

Laurel's such a hostile character though that I have a hard time seeing her softening up. She was hostile towards Tommy, Oliver, her dad, Sara, TA, randoms working in the PD, Ted Grant, etc. Sara's death could have been a moment to see behind whatever walls she's built up, but I almost think that this is just who she is as evidenced by the flashbacks. And while there is absolutely a place for a woman like that, the role they are forcing Laurel into doesn't fit. Angry and hostile is not who I know Black Canary to be, and the harder they force Laurel into that role, the more I'll resent her. 

 

Of course, if she suddenly has a complete personality shift, I won't believe that either. Sadly, I think SonofaBiscuit is right, for me, there's no winning for this character any more.

[dtissagirl]

I think that if they start to make Laurel more humble, we'll be able to deal with her working with team arrow. Right now she has this whole thing where she's pretty much all "i'm right and you're wrong" and she just sits on a high horse with her holier than thou attitude that it just makes us want to not be around Team Arrow because she treats them like underlings. I want them to soften Laurel after TA chews her out about her cavalier attitude about things, I want them to make her be more humble and caring and thoughtful. She can GROW. But the writers don't seem to want to make her do that. Hopefully the next three episodes shows Laurel in a positive light.

My fear here is that I'm not at all certain she's being written arrogant and prissy on purpose. My guess is that they're not writing with that intent, actually, she just comes off like that, for several different reasons we've discussed to death already. So I'm not sure if the writers and KC even realize the way Laurel treats every other character as inferior, because the one single reason the EPs ever come up with about people reacting negatively to Laurel is "she's not suiting up yet". And honestly, the lack of being a masked vigilante is the least of her narrative failures.

Which is imo their huge ass problem with the character from the very start. They think they're writing her one way, she comes off the very opposite.

Edited January 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

Laurel strikes me as very much a Driver Personality (http://persuasive.net/the-driver-personality-type/). The bullet points 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6 really stood out to me as something we have seen in Laurel. I see the extreme in her and that just doesn't fit in a Team dynamic. I thought it was odd that we haven't seen any interaction between Laurel and Diggle/Felicity/Roy, but I'm beginning to suspect that they don't know how to write them on an equal field. So the scene becomes imbalanced i.e. Laurel either ignores them or orders them around. 

Edited January 3, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[WaitandHope]

I've been rewatching season 1 and am currently through epi 7 and I pretty much liked Laurel at that point. She had a mission with CNRI that was admirable and was likable and rootable with Tommy. I guess I'm waiting for it all to go wrong. Because I certainly haven't liked the character in quite some time.

I even was manipulated by writing enough to not hate her and Oliver in the first group of episodes. I can't remember where it all went horribly wrong but it wasn't in the beginning. Sure, she's selfish and smug but most of the characters were much more unlikable at this point. And her competency seems to have lessened each season - a strange story-telling decision and not the actor's fault.

Every other character has grown - she seems to have regressed. Also, KC was beautiful in these episodes. Not comparing because I don't want to get in trouble with the mods. I also loved her on supernatural. I know a lot of people didn't like Ruby, but I thought that was the show's strongest season and she's still my favorite love interest for either of the boys in 10 seasons. So I was inclined to like KC and the character and all went really wrong. I'll check back in and let you know when indifference then spite sets in for the character.

[wonderwall]

My fear here is that I'm not at all certain she's being written arrogant and prissy on purpose. My guess is that they're not writing with that intent, actually, she just comes off like that, for several different reasons we've discussed to death already. So I'm not sure if the writers and KC even realize the way Laurel treats every other character as inferior, because the one single reason the EPs ever come up with about people reacting negatively to Laurel is "she's not suiting up yet". And honestly, the lack of being a masked vigilante is the least of her narrative failures.

Which is imo their huge ass problem with the character from the very start. They think they're writing her one way, she comes off the very opposite.

But the thing is, is that KC can play Laurel as a softer character. She definitely has moments with Quentin, Sara, and even Dinah. So hopefully KC can imbue that softness to Laurel when dealing with Team ARrow. 

[statsgirl]

I've been rewatching season 1 during the holiday break.  I admit that I didn't like Laurel from point in the pilot episode when she turned off the TV that everyone else was watching without asking because  she didn't want to see the news item.  But what has struck me from watching the episodes again is how incredibly much Laurel makes everything about her.  From seizing the remote to her insistence that both Tommy and Oliver put her first ahead of their friendship, to getting upset when the table in the restaurant isn't free for her when she wants it (because Tommy didn't have money to bribe his way in but she doesn't care about that).  When she talks to Oliver about taking Sara away with him, she says "you don't sleep with your girlfriend's sister unless you want to blow up the relationship" (actually, maybe you do if you like the sister in question and have fun with her), and when Sara tried to warn her that Oliver wasn't ready to live with her because he was cheating on her, she replied "Why can't you be happy for me?"  

 

Her introduction to Felicity was annoying because after asking who this person is, Lauren ignored her for the rest of the scene and talked only to Oliver.  Even in season 3 she's telling Quentin he's not doing his job properly, calling out the riot squad because she's going to save the city, and saying that she won't tell Quentin about Sara because she can't lose someone else and giving orders to Felicity as if she worked for her.

 

 

*  Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior

without commensurate achievements).
* Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or highstatus
people (or institutions).
* Requires excessive admiration.
* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his
or her expectations.
* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.
* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
* Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of her.
* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

 

If they had deliberately tried to write a character with a narcissistic personality, they couldn't have done a better job.

 

I don't think the writers did it on purpose, but it does make their job of making Laurel a sympathetic and believable Black Canary that much harder.

Edited January 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[looptab]

An article about Laurel's heroism, which made me think that maybe, on paper, she should have worked, as many have already said. But I found myself pretty amused by the things written, and I don't think that was the purpose of the writer. Anyway, he explains how Laurel's journey has been the one of a hero. So maybe I'm blind, because that's not what I saw.

Laurel’s steps into heroism may continue to travel over rough ground, yet that’s nothing surprising. Look at where Ollie started, what he became, how he’s had to re-make himself. He didn’t return home a fully-fledged hero, although he is already skilled warrior, and he wound up questioning his own methods. As far as he’s come, even Oliver still has more to learn. Likewise, Sara goes through her crucible, another imperfect hero. Roy Harper is granted a mask and a place on Team Arrow by the end of season two, a rather rapid trajectory, despite the difficulties of his own journey, his impatience, impulsiveness, and misfortunes. Laurel’s inching closer to Black Canary is hardly rushed—it’s mid-season three and we’re just now seeing the beginning of that transformation after the groundwork of the first two seasons. Her imperfections, vulnerabilities, and setbacks are part of the building blocks of a hero. Arrow has emphasized how much the person underneath the mask matters—Laurel’s story is another intricate, hard-won process.

The definition of what makes a character heroic isn’t just the times they save the day and triumph, it’s how they face their inner demons, what they do when tested, and how they get back up and keep going after they fall down. Laurel has already shown many times over that she possesses the raw materials that define heroism.

 

http://thegeekiary.com/laurel-lance-the-material-of-a-hero/20143

[Sakura12]

That person was definitely watching a different show then I did. I saw nothing of Laurel's supposed heroic journey. I saw a selfish entitled brat that now wants to join vigilante club because everyone else is in it. She doesn't really seem to care about finding Sara's murderer, she made Sara's death all about her. She's choosing to keep the secret of her sister's death from their father because it will hurt her to tell him. The everyone leaves her excuse is so stupid, they didn't leave her they were brutally killed! Why should I feel sorry for her over the fact that Tommy and Sara are dead for her? 

 

Then of course Laurel never faces any lasting consequences for her actions therefore never learning from them. She lost her job, she gets it back through blackmail, she had a intermittent drug and alcohol problem, after a few AA meetings she's all good, she lost her sister, she now gets to take over her life and be a hero. And all it takes is a few boxing lessons and she gets to take on the comic name of Black Canary, while Oliver three years later still hasn't earned the name Green Arrow. WTF is that? 

 

Quentin will probably understand Laurel keeping the death of his daughter from him and I'm sure in his dying breath Quentin will tell Laurel how amazing she is, how she'd make a great hero and that he's so proud of her.

[tv echo]

...Laurel’s inching closer to Black Canary is hardly rushed—it’s mid-season three and we’re just now seeing the beginning of that transformation after the groundwork of the first two seasons....

Uh, definitely untrue since

she'll be "tak[ing] up the mantle of the Black Canary" in the next episode, so that sounds pretty rushed to me.

 

IMO, the biggest problem is the failure of the back story to set Laurel up as a Black Canary who's a martial artist (equal to Batman) - and one so good at it that she ends up training other superheroes.  How to get to that point when right now she's a 30-year-old lawyer with a few self-defense and boxing lessons?

Edited January 3, 2015 by tv echo

[Menrva]

If they had deliberately tried to write a character with a narcissistic personality, they couldn't have done a better job.

 

I don't think the writers did it on purpose, but it does make their job of making Laurel a sympathetic and believable Black Canary that much harder.

statsgirl, I don't think I can agree with you enough. I've often thought the same about Laurel myself but was afraid to post or I'd get in trouble for bashing Laurel again. But I do find her behavior extremely troubling. I just still can't forget her torturing that man in the hospital bed. It was just horrible. Nothing Laurel has done meshes with the idea of a hero, suited or otherwise. I truly wish I could get excited about Laurel as the Black Canary, but I'm only filled with dread. And I'm furious at the writers and Eps for the poor writing and story lines. I wish I could see Laurel the way her fans do, but I just can't.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Menrva

[chaos is welcome]

Torturing a VICTIM OF A CRIME.  Its (kinda) one thing if its a bad guy.  They once upon a time wrote Laurel as a character who cared about people, and wanted justice.  Which is who Black Canary in the comics is.  They actually have erased THAT version of Laurel completely and the version we are left with now just makes me want to bash my head into the wall. If they had worked off the character they started with in S1, they could have gotten her there, but they pretty much erased everything about her on Tommy's death.

 

I also will never get over her basically stomping her foot at Oliver in 3.02 and saying "I AM NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU."  My 6 year old does that.  I give her a pass bc she is 6. Facepalm.