Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Morrigan2575]

The idea that Laurel just gets to become Black Canary with no evolution of the character seems so asinine to me. SA just said at a recent con that Oliver isn't called Green Arrow yet because it's part if the characters evolution to a hero. Sara wasn't called Black Canary for the same reason which CA said at the same Con and CL said back in November.

So as a viewer I'm supposed to ignore everything the actors, producers have said in interviews and everything they've shown in the show for Laurel and like it? Hell how does that work when the show spends all of S3 continuing Oliver's journey/development towards a hero, while dealing with Roy's journey but Laurel just shows up as Black Canary and everyone goes yay?

I'm sorry but no thank you.

[KirkB]

Maybe Laurel shows up as Black Canary, or at least has a costume for herself, and Oliver says "No, Laurel." Then she sheepishly takes the mask off and goes back to the DA's office? Okay, obviously not, but it would be funny. They make a big production out of panning up and showing Laurel in costume just to have it get dismissed and they never speak of it again.

[Password]

Maybe Laurel shows up as Black Canary, or at least has a costume for herself, and Oliver says "No, Laurel." Then she sheepishly takes the mask off and goes back to the DA's office? Okay, obviously not, but it would be funny. They make a big production out of panning up and showing Laurel in costume just to have it get dismissed and they never speak of it again.

 

We can all but hope.

 

Frankly I'm not bothered by KC getting buff and showing off. She looks good. I'm not all that invested in BC but I can see why some (or many) would think it unearned. I just think it makes no sense. I have a hard time understanding how they're going to sell Laurel turning into BC without something massive happening. And even then, why go vigilante/hero? What is her motivation? I imagine Sara's death at the end of s3 would've been what motivates Laurel but Sara's not dead. What now?

[BunsenBurner]

The problem as I see it is that

1)She doesn't have the skill set and can't have it for several more years.

2) I believe it was in Birds of Prey when she was fighting it was very obviously her stunt double. I believe this will be a problem with Roy as well

3) She can't and won't follow orders from anyone unless it will benefit her.

4) She must believe it is okay to blackmail anyone to get her way. What other illegal things will she do to get her way?

5) Her crucible was all about her she never took into account how it impacted anyone else. She never felt guilty.

I believe she will turn evil but then I already think she is and was written that way.

[catrox14]

My issue isn't even with her physical form.  My issue is that I have seen her do action on Supernatural.  MMV but I didn't think it was very good.  It was with Jensen and Jared who can sell a fight scene as well as anyone in the business. They know how to move and they make fights looking freaking brutal. She did have a relatively decent looking exchange of jabs in a scene with Dean , but I put that to Jensen being about to sell taking and delivering a fake punch. But it did look pretty good. 

 

There was one scene where she was supposed to kick Dean when he was already on the ground and to this day I laugh because it's like a little kid trying to kick a soccer ball, instead of really winding up and kicking the crap out of him. It had no oomph behind it. Part of fake fighting is to keep emoting during the fight. Her face never had that really angry, I'm GOING TO KILL YOU NOW thing during a fight.  Mostly I just can't see her doing a long extended fight scene with complete choreography. I just don't want a lot of quick cutting because they have to cut between her and her stunt double.

Edited June 21, 2014 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

Catrox - apparently the awesome Kim Mannors said KC was horribly uncoordinated. It's funny how KC fans point to Ruby to say KC will be a believable Black Canary when a SPN Director/EP basically said she wasn't very good. Hell, looking back on her fight scenes they won't very complicated and generally over quickly.

As for Roy/CH he's basically said he sucks and lets his Stuntman do all the work and it's noticeable, it's quite blatant in 201. Now, imagine that all the time with your BC. For me the big difference is I don't have a choice with Roy. However, with Canary I was given one and now they're taking it away.

So basically we have a character with no real motivation to become a vigilante/hero other than wanting to be her sister. A character with no real training to be a hero/vigilante and an actress who isn't very good at the physical/fight scenes, leaving us playing spot the stunt woman.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[KirkB]

It would drive the comic purists nuts if they actually ran with the darkness/blackmailing stuff and made Laurel bad. Maybe not full on Manhunter but still toward the kind of person Oliver might have gone after in season 1. She could still be a vigilante of sorts, only instead of fighting she blackmails and steals money she gives to the poor, and she gets to hide it from Oliver. It would at least make Laurel a little more relevant and potentially interesting, though as much as I'd like it I can't really see the EP's going this route.

[apinknightmare]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't think Laurel's going to be BC *yet*. I think the jacket handoff was a red herring to play with the audience - given Laurel's unpopularity, I think they're going to do a trial run with her knowing the secret/becoming a Manhunter-esque type vigilante. That way they can see if the dynamic works (LOL), and if it doesn't, they can try something else (hopefully writing her out of the show). If it *does* work, then I think they'll kill Sara off and have Laurel become BC.

 

Since Sara was in the official S3 summary that was released in the upfronts (IIRC, it specifically mentioned her being an international assassin), I guess she'll be back to facilitate the introduction of Ra's al Ghul. OR, Laurel *will* become BC, and if it doesn't work out then Sara can come back? Maybe to avenge Laurel's death?

 

Given the fact that she's working out already, I'm assuming they're going to have her all trained off over the 5 months that have passed, which...yeah. Ridiculous. I hope that's not what they wind up doing.

[BkWurm1]

Ok, so I agree, the big question is under what circumstances would Laurel ever believably take up wearing a costume and going out to fight the bad guys?

As long as we have Diggle, Oliver, and Roy right there in Starling City I think the answer is she does not have a reason soooo that says to me there will have to be some sort of circumstance where neither Diggle nor Oliver nor Roy can come out to play. Cue Laurel finding Sara's jacket and coming up with the idea of impersonating her or more specifically, the Canary.

Maybe there is some meeting that a vigilante has to show up for or Oliver is hurt or otherwise of commission. Laurel dons the costume, thinks she's good at it and keeps doing it while maybe doing some real training too.

I don't like it but yeah, i can buy them doing something like this.

[wonderwall]

I feel sorry for the person who wrote this post: X

 

So someone asked KC what she thought Laurel's role would be in team arrow and KC just made the asker feel insecure and like an idiot. I mean, it's a valid question and I don't see anything wrong in asking it. I'd like to reinforce my previous statement that KC has zero understanding of Laurel and is just in the show just to say that she played a hero at one point. smh. 

 

If KC doesn't understand Laurel's true value, how in the world should we? 

 

Also, it's hilarious that KC told this person to go read the comics when she herself hasn't read the comics at all. If I were this person, I would've wanted to call her out on that :/

Edited June 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[catrox14]

John Barrowman and Stephen Amell need to sit her ass down and give her the whatfor and a serious lesson about how she's handling these panels. That's just a terrible way to treat that questioner.

[calliope1975]

I hesitate to judge based on the description alone and would like to see a video for context, but wow, that poor girl. I'm really hoping it didn't come across as badly as it sounds. I think her question was legitimate, and "go read the comics" is just rude and dismissive. Jeez, I can answer the question for KC without coming across as a douchecanoe. Just say Laurel has a legal background and ties to the courts that could be beneficial to Team Arrow. Make something up. But it's not smart to be rude to a fan at a convention if they're not being rude first. That's a no-brainer.

[statsgirl]

Good for that questioner, because she doesn't think it was her bad that she felt so embarrassed.   But it's kind of appalling.  I don't think, or rather I hope, KC didn't set out to be mean on purpose, rather that she expects she will be the Black Canary and that's that.  

But asked her with everyone on team arrow having distinct roles in the group, what skills and dynamic does she think her character brings to the group that the others don’t?

She then asked if the audience wanted to answer my question and asked if I’ve read the comics.

I said I understood who Laurel becomes in the comics (like the black canary) and while I haven’t read the comics, I watch the show.  I tried to clarify what I wanted to know what she thought in terms of dynamic of the team.

She the asked for my name and then said again to read the comics.

Like I was really embarrassed because I think I understand Arrow, and I was made to feel stupid.

I wanted to know where she personally felt Laurel on the show fit in. The comics tell us nothing in terms of the show and even then there are so many liberties taken by the writers.

That's pretty much what all of us have been asking here -- how can Laurel fit onto the existing team and what special set of skills would she add to the team?

 

So a 20 year old fan is looking at the show and the character closer than the actress who plays her.  My guess is that asking the audience to answer the question was expecting them to say "she's the Black Canary and Oliver's partner" but that's too simplistic, especially on a show that has been twisting canon all along.

 

Stephen Amell and John Barrowman have been taking an active role in helping to develop the canon of the show and coming up with new ideas, and quite possibly other cast members are too, while Katie Cassidy is skimming the surface.  How does she do that, since she's a method actor?  And wouldn't she be worried since Felicity has taken over the love interest role and Caity Lotz made such a good Canary and try even harder to make Laurel necessary?

Edited June 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[Lokiberry]

Jebus, why did they cast KC again? She's on record as not having read the comic books herself, but has no problem telling a fan to go read them when she asks a question. She apparently only started working out like yesterday, having chosen to sit on her rump for the past two seasons while SA, CL, DR, and every other initial on the show has been knocking themselves out to be in peak physical condition. She's not at all commited to the "acting" part of  this acting gig, as evidenced by her gleeful grin as her character's sister went off to rejoin a bunch of assassins because that meant that KC, the "actress", "won" the role of Black Canary.

 

Honestly, her only claim to fame is that her daddy was a teen idol forty years ago. Why is she even on  this show?

[BkWurm1]

Again, KC is doing herself no favors. This would have been a great chance to push what she wanted Laurel to bring to the team table but all she can see IMO is the title of Black Canary, not the character.

[pootlus]

Like others have said, I really hope that the exchange comes off as different (perhaps KC was being lighthearted and self-deprecating - yes, I'm trying to be generous here) because from what the questioner wrote, it sounds like she (KC that is) was a complete bitca.

Edited June 22, 2014 by pootlus

[AnyoneButYou]

That poor fan. She probably paid money to go to that convention only to feel embarassed by an actress who hasn't even done any research on her own character. Plus, Laurel is nothing like Dinah/BC in the comics (as far as I know), so how would anyone know where the hell Laurel fits into Team Arrow?

[Starfish35]

I feel sorry for the person who wrote this post: X

I feel sorry for her too. I would have been embarrassed too. And I'm sure the Laurel fans on Tumblr are going to shred her. I hope she doesn't get too badly attacked. :(

As for KC, wow, I'd like to see video. I hope it wasn't as bad as it sounds, but just from this it sounds like something she didn't have an answer prepared for and got defensive. But I see absolutely nothing wrong with that question from what's said here.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Starfish35

[AnyoneButYou]

I feel sorry for her too. I would have been embarrassed too. And I'm sure the Laurel fans on Tumblr are going to shred her. I hope she doesn't get too badly attacked. :(

They've already started. Someone replied calling her a KC/Laurel hater who was trying to start something.

[Starfish35]

There's a reason I try to stay away from Tumblr. :(

[Actionmage]

The way that KC seems to inspire such intense devotion, maybe TPTB need to make her Blood2.0. Work on the New Teen Titans' version, minus the actual demons, and up the entitled, charismatic leader? Didn't Sebastian say he wore the mask/hood to fight what he feared? Maybe Laurel can be shown to fear not being as tough as Oliver and Sara? Or being helpless?  The way KC supposedly answered that reasonable question makes me think KC could dig into motivation like that.

[Password]

Make Laurel a villain is what many of us on this thread have been crying for. It just seems too well set up to not take advantage of and would make so much sense.

[Luckylyn]

 

all she can see IMO is the title of Black Canary, not the character.

 

I really think that's a great point.   I do think it's great that she's training so she can be physically fit for the part and think it's good that she's sharing that with fans who doubt her physical capability.  Still, it's not enough to look the part.  The writing hasn't been there for the character, and KC hasn't been able to elevate it with her performance.  She doesn't seem to have any nuance (she hates him, she loves him, she's an addict, she's got her act together), and she plays what's on the page without finding a way to bring more into it.She's treated like a plot device who goes from one thing to another without much development in between to explain it, and she doesn't add layers so you can see multiple emotions in her face.  That's what she needs to work on. I do think writing is the main issue, but KC isn't helping it either. It's possible with the right writing she'd be awesome, but she can't adjust poor writing with her performance.  I think of an actor like GDL who played Ianto on Torchwood whose character was given very little writing but still managed to add that extra something to his performance so you could grow to love the character even if he isn't given the greatest writing is something KC should try to emulate.  Give that man only one line in an episode, and he'll hold your attention.  Plus, KC needs to work on the PR side of things and stop being defensive.  Her feeling threatened is natural because her job is at stake, but she has to manage the fans better which may inspire them to have more patience while the writers try and figure out what to do with Laurel.

[dtissagirl]

KC's defensive answer only reinforces my theory that she really knows nothing of what's coming for Laurel, and is out there in the con circuit campaigning for Black Canary.

 

"Read the comics" is such a dumb answer, though. Dinah is already BC in the comics; Arrow, however, is showing us an origin story. If KC doesn't know the motivations for Laurel to become BC [and those should be the same motivations as to why she wants to help Team Arrow *as a vigilante/hero herself*, which was basically the question asked] except for BECAUSE COMICS, then there is really no hope that she'll EVER make a convincing BC, no matter how many hours working out, or how many pictures taken wearing a black leather jacket.

[Velocity23]

I find it hilarious KC is answering because COMICS, since she hasn't even read the comics. She should at least prepare for this cons and think of a funny line what she could bring into the team. There is the idea that she could help through her work as a DA or if she wanted to make a joke she could have said: Laurel is pretty good at throwing stuff at the wall.  I think she is walking on thin ice and radio silence of EP regarding Laurel and BC could mean they are finally letting go from this plan. She should be engaging and make people excited for Laurels story, but all i see is her getting annoyed and i think she is in delusion land and planning her own show called "The story of the magic leather jacket". 

[Morrigan2575]

Didn't someone not too long ago research the arguments in favor of Laurel as BC and Laurel/Oliver OTP? If I remember correctly it all came down to because her name is Dinah Laurel Lance, duh! LOL.

I guess that's all KC and the Laurel fans have...although you have to wonder how a "method actor" couldn't answer that question since (AFAIK) part of method acting is knowing you're character inside and out.

I saw on twitter that another con attendee pretty much backed up the tumblr post. Beyond that, we'll never get a good sense because KCs publicist doesn't allow video or pictures. Apparently, that's not a con rule because someone taped Barrowman's panel which KC (IMO) very awkwardly crashed.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

Oh yup, the Laurel/KC stans bullied the hell out of that poster. Poor girl deleted the post! They made her feel as though it was a controversial question.......

 

 

Honestly the damn nerve of some people. I’m going to go ask Stephen Amell what Oliver brings to Team Arrow and see how he reacts. Or when they make the Justice League movie, I’ll ask Henry Cavill what Supes brings to the table.

LOL some Laurel stans are hilarious. 

 

Regardless, I agree with everyone above. KC only wants the superficial things for Laurel and herself, and that's the title of BC. She doesn't care how she gets it, why she gets it, she just wants it. It's quite sad.

[Lokiberry]

 

Honestly the damn nerve of some people. I’m going to go ask Stephen Amell what Oliver brings to Team Arrow and see how he reacts. Or when they make the Justice League movie, I’ll ask Henry Cavill what Supes brings to the table.

 

If somebody did ask these guys, or Michael Fassbender, or Tom Hiddleston, they'd be able to give an actual answer, because they've read the source material and put some thought into who their characters are: what drives them, and what they're trying to accomplish. Katie Cassidy wants to sit on her butt and wait for the script to be handed to her. She doesn't want to put the hard work in to construct a character, and it shows.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Lokiberry

[Velocity23]

I am laughing at this tumblr post by KC getting annoyed by an #Olicity T-shirt xD. I think what KC needs to remember is the fact that these writers like to scrap things and don't have any longterm plans. 

 

http://whenwewerewild.tumblr.com/post/89532153490/geodude96-whenwewerewild-so-i-wore-an

[icandigit]

Wow. I'm not used to that. If nothing else I'm used to actors in those things speculating all kinds of things about their characters. How they could interact with characters they normally don't have scenes with. How they think their character would respond in certain hypothetical situations. I assumed that was part of what actors did.

 

The problem with Arrow is as actors they really have to be able to elevate the material, because of bad writing and to effectively make the comic book world building work. I don't think she can't act because she doesn't appear to have that ability. It's just an ability you have to have for this show. There are so many scenes (outside of the ones with her and Blackthorne) where it could have across totally different with different acting choices.

 

So many actors/characters on this show have such great chemistry that I think it sticks out more than maybe other shows were everybody isn't so dang magnetic.

[quarks]

I'm inclined to give Katie Cassidy a bit of a break on this one, partly because I don't know the context, but largely because panels can be intimidating. And if you genuinely don't know the answer to a question - and it sounds as if she doesn't - that intimidation factor increases. 

 

So that's not my main concern here. My main concern echoes others: it sounds as if Cassidy hasn't been told what Laurel's motivation is for joining Team Arrow or, for that matter, becoming Black Canary. (Otherwise I think she would have answered the question - even with something vague like - "Well, it's a lot easier to coordinate things when you have an extra person around, isn't it?"  Granted that doesn't actually answer what she'd be doing on the team, but suggests that she'd be doing something.)  

 

And that's not so much an issue for Laurel's character, but for Cassidy. As I've noted again and again, Cassidy is fine as long as she knows why Laurel is in a scene and what Laurel's motivation is, and as long as both of these are absolutely clear. It's when Cassidy can't figure out why she is there, or what she needs to accomplish by the end of the scene, that she has run into trouble. Her hands down worst scene this season - in my opinion - was when Slade showed up at her apartment door, because she couldn't make sense of the scene, at all. Neither could I: it made no sense for Slade to go directly there instead of emailing or using the phone; it made no sense for Laurel not to react by immediately either trying to hit Slade on the head or running to the phone to call the police. The end result was a scene where Cassidy floundered. 

 

At the moment, and I really, really hope I'm wrong here, it's coming across more as Laurel is becoming Black Canary/joining Team Arrow "just because." (With a side bit of "and maybe once she's Black Canary fans will love her because she's going to be great at it.) True, Susanna Thompson handled all of the "just because" with aplomb and vigour ("Want me to run for Mayor? Why? Just Because? Ok then! Cue speeches about intramural swimming! Let's DO THIS!") but just because Thompson made it look easy, doesn't mean it actually is.

 

Since the Superman comparison was brought up - ok, it's a bad one, but I think it's a bad one not because Superman's powers/skills are pretty evident - hey, he's Superman! - but because Superman has arguably been one of the most consistent characters in DC history regardless of who plays him/draws and writes him. Yes, there's been some changes here and there since the 1930s, and actors have brought slightly different nuances/skills/quirks/characteristics to the role (I still think Christopher Reeve was the best), but generally speaking George Reeves and Tom Welling were essentially playing more or less the same person. That doesn't seem to be as true for Black Canary, or even for that matter Green Arrow or any of the various Batman incarnations. Adam West and Christian Bale really weren't playing the same character at all, and Stephen Amell isn't playing the same character that Justin Hartley did. So that's where I think the comparison fails.

Edited June 22, 2014 by quarks

[Velocity23]

I think for me at least i reached the point where i only care for KC/LL if her screen-time gets reduced. These cons, interviews have served for me to really dislike the actress. And it isn't helpful that hers are the only cons where filming isn't allowed. She is in a position where she should put on her charm and personality and convince the public why she would be perfect to be BC. She needs to get the public on her side. But all these statements serve that she seems annoyed, doesn't offer any of insight on Laurel or what she thinks her role is going through. And some statements regarding other characters are just awful. But maybe thats just me since i never liked Laurel. She just talks about the damn jacket, like that is what makes her a BC. 

[Morrigan2575]

I'm inclined to give Katie Cassidy a bit of a break on this one, partly because I don't know the context, but largely because panels can be intimidating. And if you genuinely don't know the answer to a question - and it sounds as if she doesn't - that intimidation factor increases.

I'm not. Having attended a few cons in my time this isn't a difficult or awkward question to answer, especially for someone who claims to be a method actor and spends tons of time coming up with backstory for her character and relationships. Hell, she could have totally answered a different question or diverted to a story and the fan would have accepted it because that's what fans do and the mods would have forced her to move on.

Instead of saying "read the comics, duh", she could have answered the dynamic question. ..oh I think Laurel could be friends with Felicity or act as a sister figure for Roy since they've interacted several times before. She could have answered Laurel would add some legal expertise in giving Team Arrow information on criminals or help them target criminals who have escaped justice.

The problem (as I see it) is that KC is so focused on Black Canary that she really doesn't give a shit about Laurel, Team Arrow, the show etc. All she talks about is how Laurel's got the jacket she is going to be BC and she's going to get Oliver because, comics, duh!.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Orion]

@quarks I'm not sure if having a clear motivation is KC problem with acting Laurel, I think it helps her but even in scenes where her motivation is clear she can't seem to nail it. I re-watched Time of Death last night, the scene where she should have knocked it out of the park, especially because she does better when she's angry, the person you come away thinking they did a really good job acting that scene is SA, not KC. I have yet to watch a Laurel scene thinking that was excellent on KC's part but I have scenes for every other actor on this show where I was impressed, despite borderline writing in those scenes. (SA -Tommy and Moira's death, EBR - the clock tower "I believe in you" speech, Malcolm - "they deserve to die, all of them" speech to Tommy, Thea - speech at Oliver's grave, Tommy - finding out Oliver is The hood, Diggle - quitting Team Arrow, Quentin - when he finds out Sara's alive.) I think what you see as clear motivation, I see a scene that is in her wheel house. KC does crying/weepy, wide eyed upset, and angry/bitchy scenes well and her acting choices tend to pull each of her scenes into those categories. Take that hallway scene again, SA shows pain, anger, heartbreak and resolve as he gives his speech about her. Whereas, KC is wide-eyed throughout, she adds a bit of weepy and angry but mainly just maintains that one expression until the scene ends.

I've never seen KC in anything other than Arrow, never even heard of her before I started watching this, so I have no idea how she acted on previous shows and from the beginning I was willing to blame the writing for how poorly developed and inconsistent Laurel's character is, and they deserve their share of blame but after watching two seasons I can't even fault the writers for the majority of the problems anymore. They are giving her the material to work with she's just not doing anything with it to make Laurel a fully fleshed out character.

I feel really bad for that girl that asked the question and giving "read the comics" as an answer, especially since KC said 2 weeks ago that she's never read them herself just shows me that she has no idea what her character is doing on the show. Even if I take her answer as legitimate though, The Green Arrow comics have been around since 1941 and have been retconned several times. Which version would she like me to read? The current one where Oliver and Dinah, (the BC has always been Dinah - first Dinah Drake and then her daughter Dinah "Laurel" Lance who was never called Laurel) don't even know each other or the one where they get a divorce and she's not a part of Oliver's team because she has her own team. If she didn't know the answer the simple way to respond to that person is "you'll have to wait and see what the writers are planning. I'm really excited"  But really there is no excuse for not at least having an idea on what motivates your character.  

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks, I'm going to ask you to take the conversation about KC's appearances at cons over to the Public Appearance topic. That's a better fit for this conversation then here. I'm going to move some posts over there as well. Thanks!

[Chairman Meow]

Moved reply to Public Appearance topic.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Chairman Meow

[Happy Harpy]

What Laurel is going to bring to Team Arrow, that it doesn't have so far? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.

 

Obnoxiousness, that's what she's going to bring. God knows she has it in spades.

[poetgirl925]

I'll admit I quit Arrow mid-S2 and just caught up last week, and those Laurel-heavy/Lance drama episodes were a big reason. Honestly, I'd just had enough. Ironically, it was anticipation for her character that brought me into Arrow. And I'll admit I had expectations that may have been too high. I had this idea she'd be a cop like the original canary wanted to be, but then I thought lawyer worked too. I liked that she was working for the downtrodden. The problem is that we never really saw the downtrodden, just pointless scenes of her in her office.

I thought we might see that she'd turned to martial arts as a way of working through her anger. It would make sense because she worked in the Glades and it would have given us a glimpse of what she did in her free time. I imagined a Wildcat type character acting as a father figure, I guess, since her family imploded after Sara 'died.' I thought we might see her develop a relationship with Sin, but instead she got pulled into a love triangle that made her look flaky and only served to move Oliver's story forward. After the Glades fell, I imagined her to be working there over hiatus - rolling up her sleeves and digging in. Maybe her dad would take her to the gym, and we'd see her working out her problems on a punching bag (I've finally let go of this idea *sigh*). But then S2 premiered and she didn't even look like Laurel anymore - all perfectly coiffed with fingers full of rings and pointless cocktail party scenes. How was this down-to-earth no nonsense Laurel? It all served to make her even more inaccessible IMO. That said, there were a few things that I found interesting about her character in S2.

1. The idea that she wasn't such a goody two shoes in the past and the hinted at sibling rivalry were both interesting. This was highlighted by her vitriolic reaction to Sara being alive. She wasn't happy first and then angry. She didn't even try to pretend she wasn't mad as hell. That actually felt real to me. The worst thing (for me) was having her apologize and get over it so fast. And her 'Please don't hate me' speech honestly broke the fourth wall for me since it felt like the writers addressing the audience rather than Laurel talking to her sister. The complexity of the sisters' relationship might have been interesting to explore as long as it didn't involve Oliver. Oliver does nothing but make Laurel a slave to whatever plot is going on.

2. I was intrigued that she was able to shoot that guy in the back without hesitation since most people who need to use a gun in self defense usually hesitate unless they're cops or military. This tied into the darkness she mentioned (maybe?) but she didn't grapple with it later for reasons I don't understand. Even if he was a bad guy, she killed a man. It was jarring for that to get dropped when the whole season has been about Oliver finding a way to avoid killing. It should have presented a moral dilemma for someone like Laurel.

3. She apparently has no problem doing things that I saw as pretty shady - prosecuting her ex's mother when she should have recused herself, blackmailing people, and considering outing Oliver as the Arrow when it suited her purposes. She appears self-serving, but everyone insists she isn't.

The problem is that they ultimately never expounded on any of these things, and most of her episodes had gaping plot holes or OOC behavior - a consequence of throwing Laurel and Oliver together when there was no need for it (Blind Spot, Heir to the Demon, Time of Death.) The only reason I can figure for dropping that 'Sara loved Oliver first and Laurel knew it but went after him anyway' bomb was to burst the 'Laurel was a goody-goody' bubble. I guess they could have done it to make Sara more sympathetic, but it doesn't make sense to assassinate the lead's character to prop up a guest star unless you plan to explore that as a character weakness for the lead. I thought we might see flashbacks or it might have been brought up in the present, but nope. The flashbacks just served to show Sara knew Oliver better than Laurel, who for reasons unknown thought it was a good idea to plan happily ever after with a womanizer who was dropping out of various universities and repeatedly getting arrested for DUI and peeing on cops - or was it cop cars? I mean, Quentin must have hated Oliver even back then, and Laurel must have known that. That's not something the perfect daughter does.

A definite missed opportunity was the Lance family dinner. Without Oliver's OOC presence, that blowup could have been Sara and Laurel going toe to toe, dealing with each other's betrayals (imagined or real) and perfect Laurel being given a wake up call by someone who probably knows her a hell of a lot better. I'll also never understand why the writers chose to force Laurel into Streets of Fire and even go so far as to write a scene where she got to shoot a bow (so unearned after watching two characters slap water in a bowl first) when they could have made her the hero of the finale if they truly wanted her to be relevant. With a few writing tweaks, they could have had Oliver give Laurel the cure since he could figure that Slade would go after her. He leaves her at the mansion to keep her safe - no declarations necessary since Slade was already fixated on the idea that Oliver loved her. Slade takes Laurel, we think she's the DiD, and bam! She injects Slade and we find out that was the plan she was in on all along. Instead they made Felicity the hero and Laurel was window dressing here. But wait guys - black jacket handoff! She's gonna be a superhero! That moment ruined the whole scene for me and felt like pacification since KC watched her lead part slip away in this episode. My guess is that the writers are smart enough to recognize it would have felt unearned to the audience. She discovers Oliver's secret and suddenly she's the hero of Team Arrow? But Oliver trusting Felicity with such an important part felt earned because it highlighted the partnership we've seen develop since mid-S1.

I think there have been a lot of missed opportunities to give Laurel a story that mattered, but the biggest problem is they continue to present her as flawless when quite a lot of her story shows she's definitely not. They also need to stop forcing the idea that Laurel and Oliver know each other so well when it's painfully obvious they don't. This really makes Laurel look foolish. If they told me that she deliberately turned a blind eye to Oliver's faults in the past because she thought she could fix him and fit him into her life plan, I could buy it because that's a character flaw and some women really do this. Even her addiction arc made her look too perfect - perfectly groomed, no consequences and she is apparently a model AA participant lol. I laughed at her sitting in a bar giving relationship advice to the people who betrayed her after one AA meeting. What a mess. They give her speeches about how everyone leaves, drowning, darkness and how she knows Oliver so well despite so much evidence to the contrary. Her monologues seriously undermine her character at every turn because instead I see an ambitious, ruthless and often arrogant character who'll climb over people to get herself from A to B if necessary, and she's not going to waste time reflecting on it either. That would be okay with me if they went that direction because I can get behind female characters like that. I loved Moira. But I've stopped hoping they'll ever make sense of Laurel or make her relatable. I just don't care anymore, and that's a shame. Mostly I want to fast forward her scenes - I guess in a way that's a character consequence.

Any way you want to look at it, this season served to strengthen Sara, Oliver and his relationships with his team (particularly Felicity) and Team Arrow as a whole, and they threw Laurel under the bus a few times in the process the same way they threw her under the bus during S1's awful love triangle. Laurel was like some kind of weird afterthought for half the season followed by a scramble to say "Look! We're doing something with Laurel! It makes no sense, but she's important damn it!"

Edited June 25, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Pyramid]

Laurel's characterisation is a mess. The writers have tried everything and nothing's worked.

Basically theyre trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.

[statsgirl]

 

I think there have been a lot of missed opportunities to give Laurel a story that mattered, but the biggest problem is they continue to present her as flawless when quite a lot of her story shows she's definitely not. They also need to stop forcing the idea that Laurel and Oliver know each other so well when it's painfully obvious they don't.

I agree, those are the two biggest problems with Laurel (well that and whether she's even physically strong enough to be the Black Canary), and until the show stops telling one thing and showing another, I don't think Laurel will ever be a good character.

[poetgirl925]

At this point I don't want to see her as BC. I can't picture the actress in the role, and there's no way Laurel's origin story would rival Sara's. I don't even know why Laurel would want that role -I understand why KC wants it, but what would Laurel get out of it? Whether they meant to or not, they firmly established Sara in this part. I was actually really afraid they were going to kill her off to pave the way for Laurel, but thankfully they didn't. If it ever did occur to the writers to do this, they thought better of it (and for good reason.) I agree with others that Laurel is a better fit for a morally ambiguous Manhunter at this point. I do wonder what the actress, the writers and the producers see that I and so many others don't, though. It's baffling to read their interviews, KC and Kreisberg in particular. All I can figure is that Katie doesn't understand Laurel either and so she tells people what she's been told? It's strange when actors like Stephen, Manu and even Barrowman give solid answers to character questions. Manu even admits sometimes the writers don't have time to explore things enough (why he suddenly loved Shado, why he hated Oliver if it wasn't the Mirakuru.) But after two seasons of terrible story, I'm not convinced they can salvage the character. Just making her part of the action won't be enough.

[Sakura12]

I think that's the issue now, the EP's think that just placing Laurel into the action will magically solve all the problems with her character.

 

They think Sara handing over her jacket makes Laurel, Black Canary despite the fact that she has no training, no motivation and no reason to want suddenly start fighting crime on the streets. (Because my sister did it and everyone loves her is not a good reason. That'll make it seen like she's doing it for the fame) KC can workout all she wants, but that doesn't change the fact that Laurel's a terribly written character and has not earned being called the Black Canary. The comics don't apply here, Laurel is nothing like Dinah Lance. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Sakura12

[scarynikki12]

The biggest problem with Laurel becoming BC is that we already know her.  For Oliver and Sara both, they showed up in real time ready to jump right into being vigilantes and the show then utilizes the flashbacks to show us how they arrived at that point.  With Laurel, we met her and she was a lawyer who wanted to help people and had a messy personal history with Oliver.  The only flashbacks we're going to get of her involve her being a dumbass college student whose boyfriend was cheating on her left, right and center, with her own sister, getting at least one woman pregnant, and right in front of her face (that TMZ type clip in the pilot has wasted Oliver with his arm around a woman who was NOT Laurel and the subsequent assault made the news).  There's nothing there to provide the foundation for her suiting up and patrolling the streets for criminals taking advantage of the shitty system.  And Oliver and Sara didn't arrive at the vigilante conclusion right away.  They both went through absolute HELL, came out on the other side, and chose to turn those experiences into something more positive.  Neither one woke up from the shipwreck and decided to take down criminals during the night.

 

If they truly wanted us to buy her as BC, then it needed to be Laurel at the end of the season 2 premiere.  Make that the big twist of the season: that Laurel's anger at Tommy's death, her guilt about her own role, and her shifting some of that blame onto the Hood result in her throwing all caution to the wind and becoming a vigilante herself.  They could have presented it as her trying to avenge Tommy, assuage her guilt, and take down the Hood all in one package.  They could have even shown us hiatus flashbacks of her losing her job and going nuts training to make up for those lost hours.  I don't think for one second that it would have worked any better than what we're currently expecting, but at least we wouldn't have a pitch perfect Canary to compare her to (and I have no shame in putting Laurel's BC right next to Sara's Canary every time the show tries to sell it to me).  

[poetgirl925]

The biggest problem with Laurel becoming BC is that we already know her.  For Oliver and Sara both, they showed up in real time ready to jump right into being vigilantes and the show then utilizes the flashbacks to show us how they arrived at that point.  With Laurel, we met her and she was a lawyer who wanted to help people and had a messy personal history with Oliver.  The only flashbacks we're going to get of her involve her being a dumbass college student whose boyfriend was cheating on her left, right and center, with her own sister, getting at least one woman pregnant, and right in front of her face (that TMZ type clip in the pilot has wasted Oliver with his arm around a woman who was NOT Laurel and the subsequent assault made the news).  There's nothing there to provide the foundation for her suiting up and patrolling the streets for criminals taking advantage of the shitty system.

I think it's clear now that while they had a 5 year plan to tell Oliver's story in flashbacks and present day, they didn't have one for Laurel. I guess hardworking attorney with a heart of gold looked good on paper, and they had a vague idea of her being Canary in the future. But really - if they intended to put her in the role so quickly they should have started setting the background in the pilot or at least, as you said, by the S2 premiere. Since they didn't, I wonder why the rush to hand over the jacket now? I wonder if they realize the backlash the character has gotten with that one move.

Lol - I'd forgotten about that TMZ clip from the pilot. I imagine the L/O story comes up again when Oliver finds out he has a kid. Can you even imagine being this character? Honestly, if I were Laurel I'd have cut Oliver out of my life like a cancer by now. They really did make a colossal mistake by presenting her entire story as being mixed up in Oliver's. That backstory has made me angry with everyone involved at one point or another.

[statsgirl]

I don't think they needed to have a 5 year plan to tell Laurel's story any more than they needed to for Diggle or Tommy or Thea. Oliver is the star of the show and everything jumps off of that.  Even with Roy, Colton Haynes wasn't offered a steady contract until late in season 1 and they've already built him up to be a vigilante member of Team Arrow next season so it's not like they didn't have enough time to make Laurel the Black Canary, if KC were up for the role.

 

One thing this show does well is to write to the strengths of its actors.  SA does stoic and physical very well, and Oliver is very stoic and very physical.  David Ramsey does dry humour terrifically, Paul Blackthorne does emotional conflict, EBR made Felicity quirky and the writers ran with it, Susanna Thompson and John Barrowman can sell whatever they're given. Katie Cassidy does bitchy, and somehow even when Laurel is nicer it often still comes out bitchy.  And I guess that's what they wrote to.

 

They could have softened Laurel after the pilot, emphasized the conflict in how she feels about Oliver and the 'good doer' but they got an actress who does bitchy and whether intentional or not, that is what they emphasized instead (the nasty comments and lack of patience, the superiority ("I came to see how your family is doing after the shooting, why can't you?") and the blackmail) till at this point, even with her knowing Oliver's secret, I can't imagine her as someone who would come down on the side of doing good in order to protect the innocent rather than someone grey or doing it to demonstrate how superior she is. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[quarks]

Rewatching the episodes is making me increasingly convinced that the show decided to abandon whatever plan they did have for Laurel right around when the second episode aired.  Starting in episode three, we get negative comments about Oliver and Laurel's relationship from multiple characters in virtually every episode, with constant reminders of Just What Went Wrong. Sara gets referenced a lot.  Episode five starts to abandon the idea of Laurel working with/against the Hood to Solve Crimes, leading her to the Black Canary role (since working with/against the Hood would lead to Laurel falling for the Hood/Oliver, something the show was backing away from.)  In Episode 6, Laurel and Oliver do not have a single scene together; he does briefly show up at the CRNI gig, but interacts with his mother, not Laurel. Their storylines are otherwise completely separated, with Laurel focused on the CRNI Goes Broke and What, Must I Accept Help From a Cute Billionaire, Really? plot while Oliver and Diggle go after bank robbers who were Sadly Fired from Queen Consolidated, which was actually something Laurel might have been involved with, but wasn't. In Episode 7, Oliver and Laurel not only don't appear on screen together at all; they are never in the same place; the closest we get is Oliver threatening to break Tommy's neck if Tommy hurts Laurel. Once again, Laurel could presumably be involved here in a legal capacity - helping out the restaurant owner or something - but isn't. In Episode 8, their only interaction is during the Uncomfortable Dinner - and the sight of them is apparently so awful it sends Helena off on a killing spree.  (Many of us are with you on that bit, Helena, totally with you.)  And once again, Laurel is completely separated from either of the main, action plots - the gang warfare OR the Let's Investigate Moira, But Quiet Like, Ok? With Secret Scientificy Magical Lighting Stuff. 

 

And that right there set up the problem we've all been discussing: once removed as the love interest, and turned into the love interest for the secondary character instead, and worse, removed from the main plots, Laurel starts having almost nothing to do except go to dinner and parties. And that's great, except that, as people on this forum keep noting, we keep seeing her in direct contrast to other characters actually doing things: Felicity investigating, Helena shooting mobsters, China White shooting mobsters, Moira plotting, Sara fighting, Lyla shooting bazookas, and Jean Loring actually doing Lawyer Stuff. 

 

And that leaves me, two seasons in, still wondering what Laurel might or might not be doing when she joins Team Arrow. 

 

I think that's the issue now, the EP's think that just placing Laurel into the action will magically solve all the problems with her character.

 

 

This seems half right to me. I don't think they think it's a magical cure. I do, however, think that they're hoping that having Laurel in the action will, if not make her popular (that really depends on what she's doing in the action, and for me if I get an explanation of why she's there), at least solve the issue of "oh, man, anyone have any ideas on what Laurel can do this episode? No? Awkward dinner it is, then!"

[Morrigan2575]

So here's a stupid question, if the show deliberately abandoned their plans for Laurel as a love interest and Canary through S2 and are constantly asking what are we going to do with Laurel this episode?

Why are they keeping her around? Better yet, why force the character to take over the role from a more popular character? Why even give the audience an alternative if they're just going to go "psyche!" On the audience.

Is it possible that what you're seeing as a deliberate plan is just a giant fuck up on their part? Is it possible that with Laurel they are all tell not show and fans should just ignore what they see and go with what they're told?

If they've known from 1.02 that Laurel and O/L just wasn't working why keep the character on the show for S3?

[calliope1975]

I tend to agree with Morrigan2575. I think TPTB just fucked up. And I think they have no idea how to fix the problem. I can't believe that KC has some special, amazing contract where she can't be fired (though anything is possible) so that just leaves extreme stubbornness on the EPs side. Unless they are actually planning the villain route, I can only see the writing choices for Laurel through all of S2 as a huge misstep. Very few seem to want to see Laurel as Black Canary, and I think if they push her into that role, it'll be another miscalculation. Others on TWOP and here have all come up with very valid, interesting story lines that Laurel could excel in but I have a feeling we're going to get more of the same. Which is an unfocused, boring, nonsensical mess. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by calliope1975

[quarks]

I don't think this is a stupid question at all.  To address some of your points:

 

1. I don't think it originally was a deliberate plan, though one of my writer friends disagrees. I don't think they realized the problem until after the pilot, and then the second episode, was screened. Episode two is written to follow the plan of the pilot, and doesn't address any of the fan complaints about the pilot (Oliver's computer skills, Tommy's sliminess, those damn voiceovers.)  Episode three is where you can see the show changing in reaction to those complaints (Tommy is noticeably less slimy, Oliver has to go someplace for tech help, the end of the episode promises an end to those voiceovers.) But those are minor tweaks. Dealing with Laurel is trickier.

 

2. Laurel in those original two episodes is a giant fuckup as a character: because she's the bitchy love interest of a character who needs a sympathetic love interest.  Bitchy is great.  If it can be played with sympathy, or even occasional sympathy, or at least vulnerability (hi, Cordelia Chase), it's even better.  It can make an epic love story.  

 

But it is not working with Oliver Queen, because although yes, Oliver Queen makes a lot of mistakes and needs to be called out for them, in Oliver Queen you have a character who went through hell for five years - something that the show reminds you of nearly every single episode. Even in the pilot, before Oliver gets to that damn island, we see him go through a hurricane, get shipwrecked, watch someone he's just been having sex with drown, and watch his father shoot someone else and then himself.  Yeah, Oliver's also a cold blooded killer running around snapping people's necks so they won't tell his secret, but he's also someone who's gone through hell. He needs a love interest that can sympathize with him, not be angry with him.  And that's not Cassidy, and it's not Laurel.

 

This next bit is pure projection on my part, but I also don't think the writers anticipated how Cassidy would interpret the role.  Even just audio interpretations can be surprising. Listening to the English versus Castillano versions on the Blu-rays is pretty revealing - Laurel's more sympathetic in Spanish, and that's voicing.

 

3. There's a gap between knowing that you have a problem, and knowing how to fix a problem.  The showrunners have acknowledged that Laurel is a problem; fixing her is another issue.

 

4. There's also two separate issues: Laurel/Oliver, and Laurel.  You can realize that a relationship has a problem, and even kill the relationship, but still save both characters. Classic example: Xander on Buffy, who was originally supposed to be more of a love interest for Buffy. That didn't work out for multiple reasons, but Xander and Buffy stayed in every episode of the show.  I expect the showrunners initially thought they could do the same.  Of course, the difference, and it's huge, is that Xander knew who Buffy was and was always involved in the plot.

 

Laurel didn't (until recently) know who Oliver was, which often meant that she wasn't involved in the plot, and that involving her meant either damseling her (a problem) or having her help, which raised the whole spectre of the problem Laurel/Oliver relationship again. So it was easier not to involve her, which....you see the circular problem here.

 

5. In terms of why they are still keeping her on the show: well, a, contract, and b, they are reportedly still shopping Birds of Prey around.  And I can see wanting to make sure their alternative love interest would work before killing or sending off their original love interest, even if that love interest wasn't working out as a love interest. The same is true for Sara as Black Canary. 

 

And they may honestly be hoping that having a bitchy, snarky, judgemental, sometimes condescending Black Canary will work on the show. As I've noted before, the showrunners seem to be very much inspired by Angel, and Cordelia Chase was in many ways just that. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by quarks

[Morrigan2575]

And they may honestly be hoping that having a bitchy, snarky, judgemental, sometimes condescending Black Canary will work on the show. As I've noted before, the showrunners seem to be very much inspired by Angel, and Cordelia Chase was in many ways just that.

The problem is they already gave us a Canary that wasn't anything like this. I could buy that they were afraid to comit to this huge change in their vision or that Laurel was their Black Canary no matter what if they didn't bring Sara in as the Canary.

I know shows are slow to adjust, look at BQM's comments about fighting for Chlollie in the writers room since Hex (late S8). However, it seems to me that AK/MG really do believe that the fans don't like Laurel because we just want her to be Black Canary already (he said that in an interview) . So in S3 she's just magically going to be the BC and everyone will love her.

I just don't think I can buy the idea that they've slowly been moving Laurel out (even when it seems they actually found a replacement in different characters).

Edited June 25, 2014 by Morrigan2575