Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[writersblock51]

ArrowLimbo, just planning to ask Laurel Lance & BC questions at this point, I think. 

[Sakura12]

Maybe we could have had a scene of Sara and Laurel working out together, and Laurel being surprised by Sara's skill since Laurel was the one taking karate classes while they were growing up.  

According the Arrow comics, both Laurel and Sara took self defense training when they were younger, Quentin made them take it because Sara came home with a black eye after being beat up by some girls at their school. So Island Sara had about as much training as present day Laurel, but she was smart enough to know that she was no match against trained mercenaries. Which continues to make Laurel look stupid not brave or heroic when she throws one punch then immediately get taken hostage.

 

Yeah she tried to help in the BoP ep, but what was the next scene? Oh, right, Laurel being tied up next to the other hostages. There's your Black Canary people. 

 

Also the Black Canary is supposed to be smart and we've seen Laurel do one dumb thing after another, like run into the Glades during an earthquake to save some file cabinets after everyone told her not too because Earthquake. She almost makes Roy look like a genius when compared to her. 

[statsgirl]

Should we all ask the same questions?  Or each of us get a couple?

 

Who to?  Kreisburg, Guggenheim and the ArrowWritersRoom?

[scarynikki12]

Should we all ask the same questions? Or each of us get a couple?

Who to? Kreisburg, Guggenheim and the ArrowWritersRoom?

Definitely K, G, and the writers. I've tweeted Sara support to them plus Caity, DC entertainment, and Berlanti since the finale. The more vocal (via social media, cons, etc) we are, the better, so I think we're safe submitting questions to all. As for the organization, I think duplicate questions are fine but if there are pressing ones we need to make sure they get asked so that we know they're out there.

[formerlyfreedom]

Some of the conversation going on in here would probably be better done via PM - not unsympathetic to what you're saying, just saying a better way to do it may be via private messaging.

 

What I'm saying is, if you want to start up a campaign of some type, feel free. But do it via PM - not on the forum. Thanks!

Edited June 16, 2014 by stacey

[writersblock51]

OK, thanks, Stacey.

[dtissagirl]

According the Arrow comics, both Laurel and Sara took self defense training when they were younger, Quentin made them take it because Sara came home with a black eye after being beat up by some girls at their school. So Island Sara had about as much training as present day Laurel, but she was smart enough to know that she was no match against trained mercenaries. Which continues to make Laurel look stupid not brave or heroic when she throws one punch then immediately get taken hostage.

 

Yeah she tried to help in the BoP ep, but what was the next scene? Oh, right, Laurel being tied up next to the other hostages. There's your Black Canary people. 

 

Also the Black Canary is supposed to be smart and we've seen Laurel do one dumb thing after another, like run into the Glades during an earthquake to save some file cabinets after everyone told her not too because Earthquake. She almost makes Roy look like a genius when compared to her. 

 

 

I really get major cognitive dissonance from what the showrunners say about Laurel, and what they show onscreen. I remember when 201 aired, Guggenheim was live-tweeting, and when Laurel threw that punch at one of the masked Hoods, he said something to the likes of "look how badass Laurel is" and 3 seconds later another Hood with a gun rendered her useless. But MG thinks she's badass in a fight, which worries me greatly, because NO.

[writersblock51]

Oh good grief, he really tweeted that (or something to that effect) for that scene?!?!!? 

 

That explains a lot, I suppose.

 

cognitive dissonance is a great way to describe what I also see happening with this character.  I think posters here and on Tumblr, from what I've read, have come up wth far better ways to improve the character to the benefit of the show, as well as her.  It just seems like most of what the show has tried has not worked, and S3 will be more of the same.

[Sakura12]

I can't believe they honestly think that when Laurel beats up a spoiled rich club owner or throws one punch at a bad guy then get taken hostage makes her a badass or heroic. Are they watching their show where we see Oliver, Diggle, Sara and Felicity do actual heroic things and look badass while doing it?

 

Sara runs into a burning building to save a child. meh, whatever. Laurel get Sara's jacket! Cue the heroic music and applause because it's a real heroic moment for Laurel! What are they smoking? And they should really stop whatever it is they are smoking because I think it's gone bad. 

 

I think they think they are doing some kind of subliminal messaging "you will like Laurel" but it just doesn't seem to be working. 

[dtissagirl]

Here, I found the tweet: https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/388094994004705281

 

He said kickassery instead of badassery, but same diff. This tweet was AN OMEN, Guggenheim.

[Morrigan2575]

I really get major cognitive dissonance from what the showrunners say about Laurel, and what they show onscreen. I remember when 201 aired, Guggenheim was live-tweeting, and when Laurel threw that punch at one of the masked Hoods, he said something to the likes of "look how badass Laurel is" and 3 seconds later another Hood with a gun rendered her useless. But MG thinks she's badass in a fight, which worries me greatly, because NO.

 

I don't recall him saying she was a badass, I recall that live tweeting event where he commented that they threw that Laurel/Gunman scene in the episode to quite (answer) the fans that were worried they wouldn't treat Laurel right in S2.  Whether he thought she was actually badass or just trying to placate the Laurel/KC fans on twitter is unknown (to me).

 

LOL - I just saw the tweet, I remember the part about placating the fans but not the ass kickery.  I still think it doesn't mean he necessarily believes it, just that they gave her a fighting scene to please her fans.  But, who knows?

Edited June 16, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

 

Guggenheim:  That bit of Laurel ass-kickery was meant for all the people who doubted we'd do right by Laurel in Season 2...

But he didn't really do right by her after all.  She took down that thug but the next one got her, and then the rest of the season was spent with Laurel either being annoying (fighting with Sara) or off in her own little addiction arc. When they finally got back to her being part of the main storyline, they overdid it in Seeing Red, underdid it in the arc of taking down Slade, and then overdid it again with the jacket scene.  Now they're letting KC spread the word about how she's going to be the BC next season and since no one is taking her aside and telling her to tone it down, it gives the impression that yes, she will be.

 

The tweet sounds like placating to me.  But then, I have no idea what they're trying to do with Laurel.

[icandigit]

I stole this from the relationship thread. It made me wonder what was Laurel's unthinkable.
@Danny Franks

Agreed. Again, the theme was 'people doing things they never thought they'd do'.

 

Diggle - siding with Deadshot

Lyla - turning on Waller

Sara - going back to the LoA

Quentin - fighting side by side with Nyssa and then letting Sara go

Laurel - who cares?

Thea - leaving with Malcolm

 

[calliope1975]

She...didn't have one? She was rendered unconscious pretty early on, was DiD'd while Felicity incapacitated Slade and Oliver fought him, then grinned like a loon as her sister left with assassins. 

 

The writers have so utterly failed this character. Even if I wanted to like her (which at this point, nope, don't care) there's not much to like. There's no there there.

[Sunshine]

Laurel listened to her father for once (about not leaving the precinct). This allowed her to be tranquilized by Nyssa and then kidnapped later by one of the Strokes. Other than that I got nothing...Oh wait a minute...she did happily send off her sister with a bunch of assassins.

[Orion]

She also managed to run towards Slade's guy instead of away when her father was fighting him to try to protect her after she woke up in the precinct.  Oh I got it. The jacket handoff and what it could imply was unthinkable.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I stole this from the relationship thread. It made me wonder what was Laurel's unthinkable.

 

 

Oh, that's an easy one.  I believe it involves her becoming the Black Canary.  Unthinkable from my perspective, that is.

[catrox14]

If I were the writers, my unthinkable for Laurel would be stealing her sister's identity as Black Canary. It's the only way they can save her for me is to make her full on villain doing heinous things. 

[Ace19]

At the Calgary convention in May, she said she hadn't read the comics.  I wonder if she has now or if she's referring to what she's been told about the on-again, off-again relationship between GA and BC.  

She goes on and on about her craft and knowing her craft, yet did not study the origins of the character she would probably be portraying?  Or her name-sake is for.  Now, the other thing that is irritating to me is that at the Calgary con in the first 5 minutes she says that when she met with Berlanti, Guggenheim, and Kreisberg she "went to town" on why she should be picked.  Mentioning her gymnastics and fight training background.  So then, how can she say in the same convention she hadn't read the comics.  She had to do some background check on the character.  I don't see how you audition for a role and not think on what this character might be and how you work on identifying with it, without doing some minor research.  Okay, I'm gonna say, she's a liar.  To be honest I think she did not say at the Calgary con that she did not do any research, I think she said that the con she went too right after.  

 

[Luckylyn]

Laurel is basically a square peg the writers are trying to fit into a round hole.  For me she doesn't fit as Black Canary because Sara seems to own that role.   Laurel isn't the love interest because Felicity, Sara, Helena... all seem to have more of a spark with Oliver and to me more interesting dynamics.  Quentin is the law enforcement person who works with the Arrow.  What skills does Laurel have that could contribute to what Team Arrow does?  If they kill off Quentin so that Laurel could take his position on the show that will make me seriously hate Laurel.

[tv echo]

Regardless of how Laurel has been written or portrayed on TV, Katie Cassidy should be more careful in her interviews and con appearances - more conscious of how her words will be received by Arrow fans.  Liking the actress who plays a disliked TV character could help fans accept a possible "redemption" arc for that character or, at the very least, make fans want to see KC in future projects.

 

The last time I saw this much fan hate for a leading female character on a TV show was for Lori Grimes on The Walking Dead.  Lori was in a love triangle with her husband Rick and his best friend Shane, who she hooked up with when she thought her husband was dead.  Lori came off as annoying, entitled and manipulative in a Lady MacBeth way.  Lori was finally killed off in a heroic way (sacrificing her life to give birth to her child).  [This is not a spoiler since it already aired on TV.]   However, the actress who played Lori - Sarah Wayne Callies - came off as really nice, funny and self-deprecating in her comic-con appearances.  So while a lot of fans were happy to see Lori go, they still loved Sarah Wayne Callies.

[KirkB]

Actually, that's a really good comparison, because SWC did a few interviews where she referred to Lori as the heart of the group, and talked about adding depths to her scenes which apparently no one else in the world was aware of. I'll give the woman credit for doing the best she could with a fairly thankless role but at times she seemed to believe Lori was more important to the show than she really was, kind of like Laurel.

[Sakura12]

I gotta hand it to the EP's of the Walking Dead, they got rid of their dead weight when nothing else was working. I wish this show could take note of that. Laurel reminds me more of Andrea from TWD than Lori. They are/were nothing like their comic counterpart and pretty much just a waste of screentime. 

[KirkB]

You're right, that Laurel is more like Andrea, but I think KC seems to have a lot in common with SWC. To be fair, TWD is set up to immediately and brutally get rid of any characters who aren't working. The cast there knows any of them can die at any time. Not to mention Kirkman, who created the comics, has gone on record saying he is not beholden to the comics or the fans. Like him or not, he does whatever the hell he wants and AMC mostly lets him. The Arrow people, on the other hand, have to deal with what I imagine is no small amount of WB politics as well as whatever pressure may come from DC.

Edited June 17, 2014 by KirkB

[Velocity23]

I couldn't stop laughing when i saw James Bamfords tweet about exercising cuz it felt like it was directed towards KC:

 

https://twitter.com/JamesBamford/status/478593023316488192

[Password]

The thing is when characters are self righteous or pompous, but own it, I have no problems. It's when someone comes off pompous but acts angelic that I can't deal. I love honesty, even if it means characters are terrible people because being fake sucks.

If Laurel was allowed to own the characteristics that make her seem bitchy and selfish I would have been fine with her. But I'm left with someone whom I don't understand why Oliver thinks the world of.

[KirkB]

Yeah, one of the weirdest things about Laurel as a character is how it seems as if many of the people who don't like her would be able to at least tolerate her more if she got meaner. Making her a more terrible person would somehow make the character more acceptable.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, one of the weirdest things about Laurel as a character is how it seems as if many of the people who don't like her would be able to at least tolerate her more if she got meaner. Making her a more terrible person would somehow make the character more acceptable.

I don't think it's about making her meaner but owning that she is mean, so to speak.  It's like Clark Kent on Smallville he would act like a judgmental, selfish, self-centered hypocritical jerk but the show would constantly tell me he's hero and he's right, etc.  In case you didn't catch it, I hated Smallville's Clark Kent.

 

I have no problem with a character being an asshole, hell I've even loved "bad" characters (Lex and Lional Luthor, Tywin Lanister, Cersei Lanister, etc) but the difference is they were written to be bad.  It seems to me that Laurel is supposed to be viewed by the audience as this wonderful, loving, fighter for truth and justice but that's not how she comes across.  I don't know if it's the acting or writing but there is a huge difference between my view of the character and what (it seems) the EPs see.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, one of the weirdest things about Laurel as a character is how it seems as if many of the people who don't like her would be able to at least tolerate her more if she got meaner. Making her a more terrible person would somehow make the character more acceptable.

Well, the reason for that, at least for me, is because Katie Cassidy has a difficult time coming across as genuine when playing warm, kind, and compassionate. She works better with an edge, with snark. I'm coming around to the view that she would have worked better as a Cordy type character.

One of the clearest examples to me was the scene with Laurel and Thea at Moira's funeral. Her caring and sympathy just felt so fake. It felt like the kind of scene you see from a character that's pretending to be loving and kind to your face but behind your back is planning to steal all your money.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

With Laurel talking about her being kidnapped and that being one of her excuses for drinking, made me think that every character on this show has been kidnapped at least once, including Oliver. Walter was kidnapped for I think a couple of months before Oliver found him and Sara's been a prisoner since the Gambit sank, first with Ivo, then on the island, then the League (you can only be freed from somewhere you aren't allowed to leave). 

 

None of them turned to drinking or blamed everyone else for their problems, they stood tall and became stronger people for it. While she became a weak sniffling mess. How is showing us that everyone else is stronger and she's weaker going to want us to want her to become a super hero over any of them? They are making Laurel look like an immature child next to Sara and Sara's the younger sister. Her grin when she got the jacket screams "ha, ha, I win!" Like it was a game and she finally bested Sara with no idea what Sara's been though to become the person she is now. 

 

Which also reminds me of the Walking Dead, Carl who after killing walkers says "I win" the difference being Carl is actually an immature child not being able to see the big picture on how to survive in the world.  

 

Instead of Laurel's "they gave you a pretty name" speech (which was stupid because she could've called herself Rainbow Starbright and that still would've been the name of a killer) Laurel should've said something like, "I know I can't pretend to know what you've gone through, but when I look at you I don't see that girl you where before, I see someone stronger. Someone that faces the world with her head held high, someone that doesn't give up"

 

But I supposed that would should illustrate even more how useless and pointless Laurel's character is when we have someone much much better in Sara. 

[dtissagirl]

Bringing this over from the Relationships thread.
 

I know many people think Laurel will be Black Canary immediately but I really don't think the EPs and writers are that arrogant. If they are, they'll just shoot themselves in both feet and their kneecaps for good measure. Maybe then she can have consequences because being a hero automatically means sacrifice and loss.

 
KC has been posting so many pictures either working out or wearing a black leather jacket that she's almost single-handedly convincing me that S3 might start with Laurel already playing Black Canary on her free time. :/

 

I would have preferred Laurel's conflict with Sara being alive than her drunken anger scenes. Laurel is essentially ok because her problems are pretty much fixed. Her sister and Oliver are still alive, her parents are on good terms, her father's sober, her sobriety is dealt with, she has her job back. She has no lasting consequences, while Oliver and Sara have still been dealing with it and they've been back two years. Their journey is far from over, while Laurel's is pretty much done until a new problem arises.

THIS. The thing that baffles me the most at the possibility of Laurel becoming BC is that it looks like her becoming a vigilante/hero IS HER REWARD for overcoming her problems in S2. And that is just plain wrong in a hero's journey story.
 

[calliope1975]

Instead of Laurel's "they gave you a pretty name" speech (which was stupid because she could've called herself Rainbow Starbright and that still would've been the name of a killer) Laurel should've said something like, "I know I can't pretend to know what you've gone through, but when I look at you I don't see that girl you where before, I see someone stronger. Someone that faces the world with her head held high, someone that doesn't give up"

 

The "pretty name" speech was laughably bad and shows that Laurel has no idea what her sister has been through. She does know the LoA are assassins (look, it's right there in the name) though, and tried to kill her mother. Any person with a brain can put that even if they bestow a pretty name on you that doesn't mean they're the good guys.

 

KC has been posting so many pictures either working out or wearing a black leather jacket that she's almost single-handedly convincing me that S3 might start with Laurel already playing Black Canary on her free time. :/

 

I honestly would not be surprised if this happens. It'll be terrible and poorly executed and would probably push my dislike of the character into full on 1000 burning suns hatred. (Damn, that seems extreme, huh?)

Edited June 19, 2014 by calliope1975

[KirkB]

See, I guess I'm a little better off because they have done nothing in the first two seasons to make me either like or hate Laurel, so my utter ambivalence gives me a certain degree of armor where her story lines are concerned. I honestly don't feel enough about her to be angry or upset about her being Black Canary, being with Oliver, or much of anything else really.

[HighwayFlower]

It was easier for me to block out Laurel before I liked Sara so much. Now the thought of her becoming Black Canary over Sara makes me ill.

[Morrigan2575]

It was easier for me to block out Laurel before I liked Sara so much. Now the thought of her becoming Black Canary over Sara makes me ill.

 

If they never gave me Sara I wouldn't like Laurel but I'd accept that she'd be Black Canary and probably OTP but now they gave me a better character with more chemistry with Team Arrow and Oliver and I hate the fact that they tossed that aside because they seem stuck on Laurel being BC.

[Starfish35]

If they never gave me Sara I wouldn't like Laurel but I'd accept that she'd be Black Canary and probably OTP but now they gave me a better character with more chemistry with Team Arrow and Oliver and I hate the fact that they tossed that aside because they seem stuck on Laurel being BC.

Yeah this is where I am.

[AnyoneButYou]

I think the only way I can take Laurel next season as BC is if on her very first outing she gets killed. Sara Lance can come back using her middle name Dinah (because in my mind her middle name is Dinah) as her first name in a nod to Dinah Laurel Lance and take back the mantel that she rightfully earned.

 

This way KC gets to show off the biceps that she keeps bragging about on Instagram one last time like it's all she needs to be BC, and fans can be happy that Caity Lotz, an actual trained stuntwoman, can be BC.

 

This probably won't happen, of course. If Laurel becomes BC at any point during Season 3, I'm out. Laurel as BC at any point after seeing Sara isn't at all believable, but Laurel as BC within one year is just BS.

[wonderwall]

There are some people who think that Laurel doing drugs and becoming an alcoholic was a sign of her weakness and there are others who think that drugs and alcohol is a disease that Laurel couldn't help but fall into. IDK, when I was talking to someone online about Laurel's downspiral they were sort of offended that I thought people who do drugs and alcohol are mentally and or emotionally weak, but I guess that's my opinion? I mean I understand that Laurel could be genetically predisposed to become an alcoholic (like her father), but then again, she knows what being an alcoholic is like from the outside. She had to deal with her dad being one, and I'm sure she knew that it wasn't a walk in the park. Regardless of this, she still became one because of the risk and reward factor that often occurs with alcoholism. It made her feel good which is why she kept on doing it. If that isn't emotional instability then I don't know what is. 

 

In the real world it makes sense that a person like Laurel would drink to drown her sorrows, but not on the show.The problem with alcoholism and this show is that, so many people went through so much more than Laurel that actually making her an alcoholic didn't paint her in a positive light, it made her look weak. It would've actually made more sense if Sara were an alcoholic and Laurel was the person to help her get out of her rut, but no... The writers could've done so much to actually paint Laurel in a good light that it's a wonder if they even like her or not. If a character is so cherished by the EPs and the writers, they would do anything in their power to take good care of them, we haven't seen them do this for Laurel. Writers don't 'drop the ball' on characters they love...

 

I personally think that the writers consciously try to make Laurel look bad with her insanely cheesy speeches (i know you like I know my own name?) and horrible inconsistencies... It's like they don't care what people think of her... IDK I guess it's a crazy conspiracy theory of mine :p 

 

This is why I don't think I'll be able to stand her as BC. Why should I care about a character the writers obviously don't? Why should I care about a character who is so emotionally weak that she would sooner grab a bottle of alcohol than actively try to get herself out of her own problems like the true BC (from the comics) would? 

 

In the end, if it wasn't for Oliver yelling at her, Laurel would've still been in the same position she was in the middle of the season. And that's not something I like to see in my superheroines. Laurel didn't save herself. It was Oliver (and ironically enough, he wasn't even trying to save her. He was just frustrated and gave up on her)... After Laurel realized she had a problem, things magically fell into place for her. She didn't struggle to become better, she didn't suffer any withdrawal symptoms, she didn't have to suffer through any consequences. She didn't learn anything... And that's so frustrating. 

Edited June 20, 2014 by wonderwall

[Sakura12]

I know people say alcoholism is disease (my father was an alcoholic so I've seen what it does to a person) but for me I mostly (with some exceptions) consider a disease something you can't choose. No one goes out to get Cancer. But you do choose to go out to get a drink. 

 

As it's been said, everyone else on this show has gone through far worse and didn't turn to a quick fix to help them, they fought back and pushed through it. Laurel could've chosen not to drink because of what she went through with Quentin. Showing us Laurel not fighting back makes her look weak compared to everyone else.

 

Also a Crucible is defined as a difficult test or challenge or a place or situation that forces people to change or make difficult decisions. So if we go with that Laurel failed her test/trial miserably and never changed or had to make a difficult decision. The term Crucible in the situations they have showed us only apply to Oliver and Sara, not to Laurel. 

[bluebonnet]

I disagree.  Addiction is a neurological disease, related to other obsessive compulsive diseases.  The action that leads to the disease is voluntary, like having a drink or doing drugs, but the behavior leads to neurological changes in the brain.  Not unlike how a person suffering from Tourette's begins with voluntarily saying a phrase or someone with OCD begins with voluntarily washing their hands and it turns into a neurologically based disease.  A person can choose to have a drink, say a phrase, wash their hands, etc, but it's rare that one actually chooses addiction.  Sort of like how one can choose to smoke or overeat (also related to addiction) without the intent to get cancer or diabetes, but the diseases are sometimes side effects of the behavior.  

 

I do agree that Laurel's addiction was done very poorly.  It felt like a mockery.  I don't think addiction means a person is somehow weak, but the way it was presented was as though Laurel was a weak-willed, attention-seeking character.  I never got the sense she was actually drunk or high, and I still don't really understand why she turned to drugs and alcohol when I wasn't really aware that she felt that strongly for Tommy.  It didn't help that the only time she did appear drunk was when she had been drugged with snake venom.  Instead, it was like Laurel was all "no one is paying attention to me so I'm going to pretend to be engaging in dangerous behavior so they feel sorry for me and focus on me me me because I can't stand when I don't get enough attention."  

[KirkB]

Which is weird. They talk about Laurel in interviews like she is this wonderful, powerful person who has overcome so much (which is nonsense with Oliver and Sara around) and yet on the show they make her appear whiny and weak. If it was all part of a plan, of leading to some particular story arc for Laurel I wish they would tell us, because right now I can't figure it out.

Edited June 20, 2014 by KirkB

[Sakura12]

That was their planned story arc crucible for Laurel and now she's all better and can be the hero. Since she hasn't faced any ill effects or psychological and physical damage like Oliver and Sara she can be even better than them. 

Edited June 20, 2014 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

@KirkB, Laurel's half baked arc was not a part of the plan. Andrew Kreisburg himself said that they dropped the ball when it came to Laurel.. So yeah, I don't think they were planning on making her look ridiculous, it just came naturally to them I suppose. 

 

Regardless, I hope they don't do a complete 180 with Laurel the next season. I don't think it'll make her anymore likable than she already is. :/

[icandigit]

I still don't understand why they can't write a basic story for her. She's an attorney, just her involvement cases, maybe even having a problem client is ripe with potential. Her dating Blood and him being evil could have been a better story.  Maybe have her dating that boss she went out with, and maybe he has some major issue. It's not rocket science, she's not The Arrow, it doesn't have to involve that much.

[wonderwall]

 

Yes, KC. We get it. You've been working out *eye rolls*. I just hope that she's also using this time to figure out Laurel and talking to the EPs about her so KC can capitalize on actually making Laurel a better character (which will take much more than her working out). If KC is all about her craft, then I hope she's taking some acting lessons as well. 

 

This actually makes me fearful that Laurel is about to become BC. IDK why, it's just a bad feeling I suppose. 

 

On the other hand. How hilarious would it be for KC to do all this publicity and working out only to have her not become BC?! God that would be amazing. 

Edited June 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[quarks]

See - and I'm aware that I'm in the minority here on this board - I'm not sure that spending a year or so showing Laurel train to become Black Canary and earn the role is actually going to help suspend anyone's sense of disbelief, because I don't think the problem is whether or not Laurel as a character (or Cassidy as an actress) is convincing physically in the role.  Granted that she's had less training than Diggle (military plus those arms), Roy (the street fighting that we saw on the show well before he was even looking for the Hood), Oliver (about four years - he could only do one pull up on the show after months on the island, though, granted, as Slade noted they didn't have a lot else to do so presumably he trained more during the hiatus), Sara (about four years with the LoA).  But I don't think that's the issue. The real issue is that those four have all been shown to have excellent, convincing reasons to become vigilantes/assassins/join up with Oliver. Diggle needed a purpose in life post military and figured he could hold Oliver in check; Roy has witnessed the crap in the Glades and seen the failures of the cops; Oliver was inspired first by his father's dying command, then by Diggle and Felicity, then by Tommy's death; Sara was forced into it by the LoA and then was working out her guilt. Felicity was first trying to save Oliver's life, and then to save a specific person, Walter, and then more people in the Undertaking. And even with that, Felicity and Diggle needed some ongoing persuasion until they were sucked into the cause.

 

We haven't seen those reasons from Laurel, or if we have, they haven't been conveyed well.  Partly this is because Laurel has gone from I love the Hood I hate the Hood I love the Arrow I hate the Arrow every few episodes, so it's difficult to tell what, really, her attitude is. She seems to have softened after finding out that Oliver is the Arrow, with the, "Well, if Oliver's doing it, it must be ok," but given that she was previously ok with the Hood and then changed her mind after watching him in action, it's hard to believe this. We've also seen given an admiring/wow, I want to do this at her sister when Sara rescued a kid from a burning building, but, how do I put this? You don't have to be a vigilante to rescue cute little kids and kittens from burning buildings. You can be a firefighter.  We've seen Roy and Oliver and even Quentin and his boss (sometimes) be impatient with regular legal methods, but we've rarely seen that from Laurel - a couple of episodes in the first season, and a couple of episodes this season, but even after apparently thinking that the only way she can tackle Blood is by using Arrow in Blind Spot (which didn't work anyway), two episodes later we have her absolutely crushed to learn that she's losing her legal career, and just a few episodes later she's happy to blackmail everyone into getting her legal career back - suggesting that in the end, Laurel prefers the law to vigilantism. And even in the few cases where she has turned to vigilantism it seems to be more from a sense of "no one will believe me!" than that vigilantism is actually the correct approach.

 

So what this show needs to do for me is not so much showing Laurel training, but explaining why Laurel suddenly (seemingly suddenly) has this desire to run out and risk her life to do heroic things, especially since, as chronicled on this thread, she generally doesn't do heroic things. It's a very serious problem when your two bad guys of the season - Slade and Blood - have done more heroic things, and in the case of Blood at least more good for the city, than Laurel has. I noted several episodes back, over at TWoP, that one of the major issues was that literally every character, good or bad, including Isabel, had accomplished more than Laurel had, with the exception of everyone else in the inept Starling City's DAs office - and, while I'm venting, Laurel, why do you want to go back there? For two full seasons they've sucked! And I'm not just talking about failing to realize that the jury for their biggest case of the year was bought off!

 

And if that's her motivation - the DA's office sucks so much I don't have a choice - then great, except that everyone in the DA's office just died (or almost everyone, anyway) so maybe, given her past, a better way to help the city would be to hire competent attorneys, just saying.  

 

Anyway, enough digression. I fully expect the show to leap over Laurel's training, since I doubt that will convince anyone anyway, and just show her as the Black Canary. It does at least solve the "what on earth can we have Laurel do this episode?" issue. And I can see the thought process: so far, having Laurel as an attorney hasn't made her popular, having her hunt the Hood/Arrow hasn't made her popular, having her as the love interest hasn't made her popular, having her be pathetic and sad really didn't make her popular (it led to at least two people I know rage quitting the show), having her give inspiring speeches hasn't made her popular. This seems to be the last ditch effort - maybe, just maybe, putting her in a kick ass action role might finally do it. (I know, many of you are arguing it will do the exact opposite, but I'm trying to cling to some optimism here.)  The problem is, I'm cheering on Oliver and Sara and Diggle and Felicity and (kinda) Roy because I get their motives. So I'm hoping that this transformation into the Black Canary comes along with some explanation of why a beautiful, intelligent lawyer would do this instead of trying to rebuild Starling City's DA's office. I guess at least if the show mentions the complete uselessness of the DA's office as one reason, the show has done a solid job of setting that up.

 

Or maybe Laurel can still go evil. I think Cassidy would be good at that.

Edited June 21, 2014 by quarks

[Orion]

Even if I can hand wave Laurel's training and accept that whatever she's doing over hiatus and whatever self defense classes her father signed her up for as kid makes her able to pick up where her sister left off and not be a liability in field (which I don't think I can but..) I'm still stuck on why Team Arrow needs her. Diggle, Oliver, and Felicity all have certain specialties that have earned them a place on the team, what can Laurel possibly bring to the table that the team doesn't already have. Even Roy and Sin provided eyes and ears in the Glades as something new brought to the team. The only thing Laurel has that the others don't is her connection the DA's office which is better served imo by Quentin with his connect to the Police Department because like they did in Season 2 he brought the Arrow cases and was an inside source to protect the Arrow and give the police needed information. Which was a lot more natural than The Hood helping Laurel be a lawyer in Season 1. I loved Sara when she was the mysterious woman in black that was attacking misogynist criminals, once she was brought into Team Arrow it got really redundant. She was essentially the female Oliver. But even saying that, Sara did have skills no one else had, blood analysis and experience with LOA weapons (pit viper venom, bow staff, the sonic thing). The best we can hope for is Laurel becoming the female version of Roy, inexperienced, unskilled and more often than not becoming a liability and one sidekick is more than enough for me.  She has no defining skill set that is lacking from the current make up of the team, which means they are either going to have hand wave a skill that we don't know she has or they are going to have to dumb down another characters skill set which will just anger the fans of that character.

 

Having multiple superhero origins in one series is going to, fairly or not, cause viewers to compare and contrast and the way the writers have set up Laurel's character she is always going to come out holding the short stick in those comparisons. She lost her boyfriend and sister. Sara and Oliver lost their families and were tortured for 5 years. She lost her ex-boyfriend, Oliver lost his best friend (Tommy), his mentor (Yao Fei), multiple friends (Sara twice, Slade, and Shado). Her parents got divorced. Oliver's father shot himself in the head in front of him and his Mother was involved in a plot to kill thousands of people. Laurel took self defense classes. Oliver and Sara had to fight for their lives and train with psychopaths. Laurel got addicted to pills and alcohol. Sara and Oliver have to deal with the guilt and PTSD of what they've done and what happened to them for the rest of their lives. Things just don't stack up evenly. And if I'm being honest Laurel's journey becomes almost laughable when it is lined up next to Oliver's and Sara's.

 

I agree with others the only route I can see Laurel going that will get the writers out of the corner they have created for themselves and win over the fans is to turn character evil. However, that seems to be Thea's path so again Laurel would be walking a path already taken by another character. 

[bluebonnet]

wonderwall, that picture and all the quotes of KC saying how buff she's getting has been pissing me off.  On the one hand, it's great that KC has been so dedicated to fitness and has even been presenting an interest in a show she stars in, something we didnt see from her in previous seasons.  On the other hand, it's as though she completely misses the point for why CL and SA are believable in their superhero roles.  Watching them clamber their way up Sally is awesome eye candy, seeing their toned bellies is drool worthy.  But when they are dressed and fighting as heroes, we don't see the buff bods.  We see a certain elegant and graceful dance.  Yes, we know they are strong, but it's the elegant movement of their bodies that impresses.  It doesn't impress me that KC is getting buff in preparation for next season's Laurel.  

 

What would impress me is if she mentioned that she was taking dancing lessons or learning some sort of martial arts that focuses on a fluid movement of the body because it would at least communicate to me that she has a basic understanding for why Caity Lotz and Summer Glau are so well received in fighting roles despite being petite women (I know CL is buff, but you don't see this with her clothes on).  When I think of a character getting strong in order to figh,t I think of Helena.  She was choppy and unrefined with her fighting.  Guess what?  She was also a bad person and ended up getting caught.  

 

I still hope all this talk about getting buff and the wink winks about the jacket hand off are misdirections. I really enjoy superhero shows but I simply can't watch it if it's going to be what KC is suggesting it will be.  Laurel's a shitty lawyer, a shitty sister, a shitty girlfriend, a shitty kidnap victim.  I'd rather she just work on being at least decent in one of her roles before moving on to being a shitty vigilante.  

[wonderwall]

I think KC is just missing the entire point of why people don't like her character. She's focusing too much on her beefing up that she's lost sight of what's fundamental about her character and why Laurel's important to the story, and figuring out how to embody her character just as how EBR, SA, and DR have embodied theirs. It's as though KC feels like the only pre-requisite needed in order to become a true hero/vigilante is having muscle, but that's so completely wrong. 

 

KC has yet to tell us why season 2 was her island, why it's good enough to be a crucible, where Laurel can improve, etc. It's as though she sees her own character in black and white (hero or not a hero) and that's the worst thing an actor can do. It's as though she has zero understanding of Laurel whatsoever. Is it the writers fault? To a certain extent. But in the end, KC is also responsible for the wellbeing of Laurel. She could ask for a few adjustments for the betterment of Laurel's character like SA and PB have, she could actively talk to the writers/EPs to see where Laurel's going or a sense of it so KC could prepare for the role... Instead, here we have KC sitting there being all complacent and expecting to have the kick ass vigilante role handed to her on a silver platter... 

 

So yeah. Not only is it important to have the physique to become BC, it's important for KC to have an understanding of the character so she can better represent Laurel... However, the writers also have to buckle down and seriously think of where they're going with Laurel. They need to make her stop being all wishy-washy and set a clear path (whatever it may be) for her. If they HAVE to make her BC then make her origin story more believable than Sara's. Give Laurel the proper motivation to become a crime-fighting vigilante, a proper storyline away from Oliver because he tends to regress her character and vice versa. Saying all this makes me believe that Laurel is not suited for the show. I don't want to watch a show called Arrow and have it be about BCs origins. The two are basically mutually exclusive and the BC arc takes away from having a tight solid arc for Oliver and his team. This show is too small for two vigilante heroes. So wouldn't it be better if the showrunners cut ties with Laurel once and for all? Have a proper sendoff implying that she'll become BC but not actually show it happening (so those of us who can't stand Laurel can forever be oblivious to this). 

 

This is what annoys me the most about KCs incessant working out tweets and instagram photos. How is it possible that an actor can miss the point of their character so completely? It goes to show that maybe she doesn't care about the show as much as the others and it truly shows with her body of work in Arrow. 

 

This and along with her super obnoxious comments about her definitely being BC *wink wink* and Oliver's other relationships being flings that isolates an entire part of a fandom just grates my nerves. I actually used to like KC a lot during her SPN days, oh how the mighty have fallen. I guess this is what desperation (in order to keep her role as leading lady) does to a person. 

Edited June 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[quarks]

compare and contrast

 

 

@Orion, this brings up a slightly related issue: it's not just that viewers are going to be comparing Laurel to Sara and Oliver, but that the writers have so far very much worked with compare and contrast to drive character interactions. This is especially true for Team Arrow, where you have:

 

Oliver vs. Diggle - strength versus experience/wisdom, training versus mentoring

 

Oliver vs. Felicity - glumness versus optimism, fighting versus tech

 

Oliver vs. Roy - a brief repeat of the strength versus experience/wisdom/training/mentoring, but also, extreme wealth versus extreme poverty (Diggle and Felicity aren't from wealthy backgrounds either, but the show has never hinted that they were as broke as Roy.) And also, training versus street fighting

 

Oliver vs. Sara - not-killing versus killing, plus whatever Oliver is doing vs. Sara's pragmatic approach.

 

These are all pretty clear contrasts. So, what contrast is Laurel going to be bringing to this?  Law versus vigilantism? Well, apart from the problem that Quentin is already in that role, in that case, why exactly is she not just helping a vigilante, but becoming a vigilante?  Granted, it's possible that the decision by the Starling City Police Force to work with the Arrow against Slade might make the Black Canary's position a little less vigilante, and a little more hero, but we haven't really seen that play out yet. Otherwise - the try other approaches role is already filled by Diggle, Felicity and even, to an extent, Roy; the wealth versus non-wealth is definitely already filled by Roy; Oliver already has a mentor (arguably two if Felicity is in the "don't kill" mentor role), and is already mentoring someone.  

 

And then there's her role in discussing What To Do Next. If she takes Sara's pragmatic approach, well, a, she's just Sara 2 (with all the attendant problems with that), and b, that didn't go over very well with Oliver. If she's taking the heroic/don't kill approach, well, a, Oliver's already there, b, Diggle and Felicity are there. If she takes the let's go beat people up approach, Roy and to a lesser extent Oliver are there. If she's taking the "Yes, Oliver you're wonderful" approach, a, gag me, and b, what's the point?

 

Which leaves me back to the idea that really, the only role for Laurel as part of Team Arrow is to have her be the Black Canary, the Green Arrow's fighting partner - despite all of the major issues with that, mostly that Diggle's already in that role and Roy as Arsenal makes equal if not more sense there, what's the point, other than making sure that Team Arrow's fighting group isn't just three men and a tech woman?  Mind you, that in itself is a point - but then make sure that the fighting team of three men, one woman and a tech woman have a reason to work together.