Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Lisin]

Laurel annoys me, but I'm hoping she gets more tolerable soon.

[Kromm]

Is the topic title (via the use of the question mark) meant to be ironic?

[Lisin]

Is the topic title (via the use of the question mark) meant to be ironic?

It is, during the Great Character Thread Creation project I ran out of wit at some point, if anyone has a better suggestion let me know and I'll edit it.

[Eucrid]

She is the worst. I used to think it was the actress but there are other bad actors on Arrow that aren't nearly as annoying. This is a super hero show and she just whinges all the time, let her get a grip and become a kick ass lawyer.

[BkWurm1]

The question mark after this thread title is very telling. Just what is Laurel supposed to be/do on this show other than make me sigh?

[Carrie Ann]

This is based on nothing at all, but I really hope they're heading toward making Laurel a villain. Until she made up with Sara and started AA, her story this season was definitely playing like a villain origin story, not a superhero origin story. The tail end of this last episode gave me a glimmer of hope that they still might go that direction.

[Kromm]

This is based on nothing at all, but I really hope they're heading toward making Laurel a villain. Until she made up with Sara and started AA, her story this season was definitely playing like a villain origin story, not a superhero origin story. The tail end of this last episode gave me a glimmer of hope that they still might go that direction.

This idea got talked about a lot on TWOP.  I think that got derailed a bit when they pulled back a bit after she went ape when Sara returned, but I suppose its still possible.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, I really hoped that Laurel's arc at the beginning of the season (remember that? When she hated the Vigilante for three episodes?) was the start of her journey into moral ambiguity and then outright villainy. I could see her losing her moral compass and then losing herself, in increasingly selfish and dangerous attempts to catch the Vigilante. I could see her putting her hatred of him above seeing justice done and protecting the public, and I thought it could be a really, really cool way to go.

Sadly, the Vigilante saved her life, and she forgave him everything and started boozing her nights away. Oh well, never mind.

What would I have done with that? I'd have had him save her just as he did, but then have Laurel explain it away as yet another attempt by him to manipulate and confuse her, that he was trying to trick her into trusting him again. That sort of blinkered refusal to see the truth would have been a good starting point for a villain.

If she ever becomes a vigilante herself, I think I'll have to quit watching. I just could not take that seriously.

[quarks]

The Birds of Prey episode left me still unclear on what is planned for Laurel. The Huntress is clearly starting her slow, slow climb to heroism; Sara is maintaining the grey, pragmatic, near anti-hero road, and Laurel.....well, the hallway scene where she told Sara that they needed to save the hostages was the first time in what, 39 episodes, that she actually for a moment convinced me that she could be a hero.  (For a moment.) 

And then at the end of the episode she gave that whole speech about letting the darkness in, and apart from the small fact that I don't think anyone should be taking career advice from Helena, it just seemed to immediately backtrack on the whole hero thing.

In general, Katie Cassidy is a lot more convincing when the show lets her be bitter and snarky, and I think she'd have more to do as a villain, especially since post Sara Hook-Up Number Two I just cannot see Laurel and Oliver together ever again. Of course I'm also the person that said back in January that I couldn't see Sara and Oliver getting together in the present timeline this season, so let's all brace ourselves for the season finale.

[Carrie Ann]

In general, Katie Cassidy is a lot more convincing when the show lets her be bitter and snarky, and I think she'd have more to do as a villain, especially since post Sara Hook-Up Number Two I just cannot see Laurel and Oliver together ever again. Of course I'm also the person that said back in January that I couldn't see Sara and Oliver getting together in the present timeline this season, so let's all brace ourselves for the season finale.

This is so true. I never really felt much from her until she started to have some attitude. And not the high and mighty kind, but the angry, bitter stuff. It wasn't enjoyable, but it was believable.

At this point, I seriously would believe anything you told me about the producers plans for either of the Lance sisters. Kill one off? Yep! Keep working on their journey to becoming a hero? Sure! Turn one into a villain? Sounds great! Make one the endgame love interest for Oliver? Boo, but I'd believe it! 

[quarks]

Please never have Laurel be the love interest for Oliver again.

I know that after pretty much killing that ship in episodes 13-15, the show was hinting at its return in the past couple of episodes, what with Laurel telling Oliver again that she knows him better than anyone else (please, please, drop this show: at least twelve people on the show know more about Oliver's life, i.e. his secret identity, than Laurel does, and at least three people - Sara, Diggle, and Felicity - are spending a lot more time with him); Oliver's "I love her too," statement and the fact that Oliver and Laurel were the only two characters who wanted to reach out to Helena instead of beating her up, showing that at least in this they think alike.

But I hate this, hate this, hate this.  The two of them were bad for each other in the beginning: otherwise Oliver would have had no reason to run off with Sara and hurt Laurel so badly. He keeps sleeping with her sister. She slept with his best friend.  He keeps lying to her - which was bad enough last season, and is really bad this season when at least twelve characters not named Laurel know Oliver's secret identity.  And this is all not even thinking about the problem that Amell and Cassidy continue be ok to good in scenes with other characters and just completely flat with each other.  These two are just terrible for each other. And they don't make each other laugh or smile.

Fortunately, the main, endgame love interest in comics/action movies either is one of the first to find out the hero's secret identity or knows about it from the beginning. Since Laurel still doesn't know, I'm going to take that as a sign that she isn't endgame.

[arjumand]

Oh man, that last scene with Slade! Watch out everyone, Katie Cassidy is ACTING! No-one will be admitted during the EYE-DARTING SCENE!

Looks like she took Joey Tribbiani's soap opera acting class:

Okay, let's say I've just gotten bad news, well all I do there is try and divide 232 by 13 . . . . And that's how it's done.

 

[Zalyn]

I feel like KC and Laurel were done a huge disservice throughout this show.  I really enjoyed her as Ruby on Supernatural, and I'm pretty baffled as to why things are going so poorly.  Besides the chemistry issue with SA, it just feels like KC is put into acting situations where she really can't play to her strengths.  The last scene for this past episode called for a long reaction shot that few actors could pull off well (maybe Jensen Ackles), and the writing didn't let Manu give her much to work with either.

While I agree that KC might fare better as a villain, I feel a twinge against it because that route was taken with other female characters the audience just didn't like - see: Alias.  And that contributes to the whole "Fuck, Kill, Marry" syndrome that frames how female characters are treated in storytelling.

Frankly, she had a great setup as a lawyer working for social justice - for a cause - at the start.  Maybe if she can rise to prominence in the DA's office and play a more hostile Commissioner Gordon, that could be interesting. But as it stands, she doesn't have sufficient motivation to dislike Arrow, and with the reveal now, she's either going to have to die or go into witness protection.

And then there is comics canon... which kind of set this up for a long fall if KC didn't work out as Laurel.  *hangs head* 

[arjumand]

I really enjoyed her as Ruby on Supernatural, and I'm pretty baffled as to why things are going so poorly.

 

I can honestly say that I loved her as Ruby 1.0 on Supernatural (much, much more than Genevieve) - as proof I present this scene, which I watch every time I need to see Dean and Sam being beaten up by a girl: http://youtu.be/nrJj-H13qJo (lately, I've really needed it. A lot). She was awesome.

What has changed?

This is my opinion: Since then, Cassidy has lost too much weight, and injected too much shit into her face. I referenced the Joey scene from friends for the same reason - she can't even make the horrified expressions he makes while trying to divide 232 by 13, because her face don't work no more. So she darts her eyes around like that's going to show great emotion. Newsflash, lady: it doesn't. Neither does bobbing your head around like one of those dashboard dolls, which used to be Marg Helgenberger's goto gesture for great emotions. I mention the weight not to be mean, or jealous, or a hater, but for a simple reason: as an actor, her body and her face are her canvas AND her paint. She had a certain physicality as Ruby that you realised when she was angry, or afraid, or really angry; you believed that she could treat Dean like her personal chew toy. Now she looks like a porcelain doll, or Brunette Lawyer Barbie, NEW! with eye movement.

Will it make any sort of difference to her role and where it's headed? I doubt that VERY much. I speak from the bitter experience of having to put up with the same thing with Erica Durance in Smallville, who was even worse - At least KC's eyes still show SOME emotion, compared to Busty McDeadeyes there. And they made her Lois fricking Lane, a much more, IMO, iconic character than Dinah Lance: yes, I prefer a woman who does things for herself, but Lois Lane is much more well known. And they kept Erica Durance, in spite of the fact that a screentest must have shown that she wasn't going to work out in the role.

So yeah - I still love Arrow, but Laurel is just a dead weight. In my opinion.

[Zalyn]

"Antichrist Superstar" - I need to rewatch S1 now.  XD

You bring up good points, and while I normally don't like it when people criticize woman actors for cosmetic procedures they've done and such (body-shaming, etc), you make very valid points here that are relevant to KC's acting options now.  I did not recognize her at all when I started watching Arrow and had to look at a lot of pictures before I was convinced that it was in fact her.

It's interesting how making comic-book remakes or adaptations, far from being easier, are actually a lot harder because it's easy to get trapped between canon and actors who just don't work.  And unlike other shows, you can just kill someone off and bring in a new character.  "The Other Darrin"ing rarely works too, but would be the only other option.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for a resolution of some sort by the end of the season, because it makes me sad seeing her flounder.

[quarks]

It wasn't just the need for a long reaction shot in that last scene that threw Cassidy off: it was that, as I've noticed, if you don't give Cassidy a very clear motivation for being in a scene in the first place and what her goal is in the scene, she struggles.

For instance, earlier in the episode, Laurel and Blood interact before the debate. Laurel has a valid reason for being there - to support Moira - and a valid reason for getting in - DA's office - both of which are given in the script. She also has a valid reason for talking to Blood: she feels she owes him an apology for thinking that he was a serial killer. Since the audience knows she doesn't, that adds a touch of fun. ON the other side, Blood has every motivation to be polite and misleading, and Laurel has every reason now to believe that he's sincere. Scene goes off without a problem.

With the final scene, though:

a. Laurel has no reason to be in her apartment. Her father has just been arrested and a bunch of criminals have just escaped from jail. For family and job reasons she should be out of her apartment, down at the police station or at her office. Failure one.

b. At this point, Laurel has absolutely NO reason to open the door just because someone has knocked without even a "Who's there?"  She's been attacked right at that very door and kidnapped several times from that apartment. I know the costs of building a new set make it difficult for her to move, but, still.  Failure two.

c. Laurel has absolutely no reason to believe any word Slade says - the news has just depicted him as a kidnapper and a criminal. Failure three.

d. Slade is there to harm her, at least emotionally, even though he says otherwise. Failure four.

e. Her motivation SHOULD be to try to hit Slade over the head or run to a phone to call the police. Instead, the script calls for her to stand there. I don't know if any motivation was written in the script, but it doesn't make sense.

f. The news that Oliver is the Arrow really shouldn't come as a shock by now.  She's had plenty of clues. But apparently she was told - in the script or by the director - to play it as "shocked." Cassidy comes across as an intelligent person in real life, and I can't help but think her reaction as a person must have been "why is my character shocked here?"

g. This should have been a Big Damn Moment - it's something the show has been moving towards, in theory, since the pilot. It should have had lead up. I expect Cassidy was expecting that - certainly I was. Instead it was played as a "oh, by the way," thing from Slade.

So the long reaction shot was only part of the problem, and I really can't blame Cassidy for struggling in this scene.

[Happy Harpy]

 

So the long reaction shot was only part of the problem, and I really can't blame Cassidy for struggling in this scene.

For the first second I thought "wow, her shocked expression is believable" and then...it lasted. I agree that it should have been cut just after.

Also, I don't think that Laurel is currently important enough in Oliver's life or in the Arrow's business for the reveal to appear as a real BDM. I saw only an uptenth attempt at making this character relevant.

Hey, maybe she won't believe Slade?

Edited April 5, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Zalyn]

"Her motivation SHOULD be to try to hit Slade over the head" - YES. That would have been brilliant (outtake?).  Then it could be followed up by her calling Oliver and saying, "Hi Oliver?  Yeah, please tell Arrow that I've got Slade tied up at my apartment.  Oh wait, I just told him!  I'm going to go make out with Blood now."

More seriously, great postmortem, quark.  Put another way, there was not any good motivational or emotional momentum going into that scene.  If Laurel had been walking into her apartment from her car (after being at the station), and Slade pulled a "Spike lurking in the bushes" thing, that could have worked because Laurel would have already been at an emotional point (upset and drained).

I'll just stop thinking of rewrites for that scene now.

[Danny Franks]

I still think that the biggest mistake this show ever made was to introduce Laurel as the girl Oliver cheated on before he 'died'. It just put too big an obstacle in the way of whatever relationship the writers might have wanted to build.

And really, I think that Oliver/Laurel would have been far better served if they'd had a Starling City meet-cute moment, at some point in the pilot episode. That they didn't know each other at all before the island, and Oliver took some other girl's sister with him on the Queen's Gambit. Then, they could have had the love triangle (such as it was) in season 1 with Oliver, Tommy and this other girl, with Laurel as another woman who Oliver was slowly starting to get to know, on a platonic basis.

In other words, Laurel needed to be Felicity Smoak. I think that relationship garnered attention and fans so quickly, at least in part because it wasn't Oliver/Laurel. It seems like a large portion of the audience rejected that pairing right out of the gate, and Felicity just appeared out of nowhere, with quirky mannerisms and a powerful chemistry with Stephen Amell. Would Katie Cassidy's Laurel have worked as well, in that situation? Probably not, because there's still a distinct lack of chemistry between her and SA, but she might at least have had a fighting chance.

As it is, she's now become an anti-presence on the show, for me. As soon as she appears on screen, my mind wanders. Just like Coulson in Agents of SHIELD, I just cannot pay attention to any scene she's in, because she's so fucking dull, and even worse than Coulson, she's also completely superfluous to almost everything that happens on the show.

[lovemytvshows]

I can honestly say that I loved her as Ruby 1.0 on Supernatural (much, much more than Genevieve) - as proof I present this scene, which I watch every time I need to see Dean and Sam being beaten up by a girl:

(lately, I've really needed it. A lot). She was awesome.

So I watched that and wow, just wow...it's like 2 completely different actresses! What the heck happened, KC?! That performance snippet in Supernatural kicked all kinds of ass. How the heck do you go from that to being Borel (bore+Laurel) in Arrow?!

It's scary how one can assume that KC's performance in Arrow came first before Supernatural considering the vast vast improvement, not the other way around as it is now.

[Morrigan2575]

Honestly that clip is a little unfair, it's from later on in the season where she actually improved, if you go back to her first 2 appearances on SPN she was pretty bad..it was like she decided to play Ruby by watching Meg and amplifying the bitchy.

Her first 2 scenes with Sam and the one with Bobby were (IMO) really one bad. I remember my reaction after the introduction of the girls being. Well Bela sucks as a character but at least the actress can act (Lauren Cochran). Ruby on the other hand is an interesting character played by a sucky actress.

I do give KC credit she got better but I don't think the OMG Ruby 1.0 really hit fandom until we were presented with Ruby 2.0...KC is freaking Dame Judy Dench when compared to Genevieve.

I've gotten to the point that I'm so tired of the argument that I just call KC a crappie actor but the reality is she's a limited actor. Let her play bitchy, snarky and she's fine, but that's not Laurel and that's where the problem comes in, IMO.

[Kromm]

I just call KC a crappie actor but the reality is she's a limited actor. 

She's a fish?  

[Morrigan2575]

She's a fish?

 

According to the predictive text on my phone, yes.  LOL

[BunsenBurner]

I find it odd that no one has discussed the comment Laurel made in Birds of Prey about 31 minutes into the show.  She said, "I don't understand what is so special about me?"  I have to admit when I heard that I turned off my TV. I will be waiting until the season is over to decide if I want to watch any more.    

Edited April 8, 2014 by BunsenBurner

[Carrie Ann]

What bothered you about that quote? I guess I didn't even notice it.

[pootlus]

I guess it's the implication that Laurel is somehow 'special' (as in, destined for 'greater things') and doesn't see it in herself so it needs to be pointed out by others.

To my mind the only way Laurel is 'special' is that she's 'especially stupid'.

The SPN clip was interesting (I must have stopped watching before she arrived as I don't remember that). Unfortunately without making the character of Laurel a flat-out snarky bitch, which would have been entertaining in short doses but not really suitable for the lead of a show, I don't see how that sort of character - which clearly plays to her strengths - would work on Arrow.

The nearest comparison I can think of is Cordelia from Buffy, and either Charisma Carpenter is a better actress or the writing was substantially better (probably both), but they managed to soften Cordy up without making her into a completely different character.  I absolutely adored her on the first two seasons of Angel. "Well, at least we now know that it's not that vampires don't photograph - it's just that they don't photograph well." Her gentle ribbing of Angel was hilarious.

They would have done better to go in that direction for Laurel.  Instead - both writing and acting - they made her a bland meh about whom I couldn't give a monkey's.

Edited April 8, 2014 by pootlus

[Zalyn]

The nearest comparison I can think of is Cordelia from Buffy, and either Charisma Carpenter is a better actress or the writing was substantially better (probably both), but they managed to soften Cordy up without making her into a completely different character.

Interesting comparison!  What helped make Cordy work was that she had a chance to grow up as she made the transfer to Angel.  That was one thing that made Buffy/Angel so great - the character arcs over seasons. 

That is something that the writers could have done to help give Laurel some sort of momentum - give a few flashbacks or other backstory about what she had been doing the past 5 years.  It would have given the writers and KC something to work from in establishing her in the present day.  While none of the other Starling City-ites got that, if Laurel is "destined for great things" as a female lead, it would have been warranted to give a firm foundation.  Alas...

[BkWurm1]

While none of the other Starling City-ites got that, if Laurel is "destined for great things" as a female lead, it would have been warranted to give a firm foundation.  Alas...

 

I hear what you are saying and yet all I can think is giving her regular flashbacks would only mean I have to suffer through even more of her.  I honestly don't think it would have helped.  She needed to be a different person in the present and as much as I know I don't like what we got, I'm really not sure that I could say what would have worked.

The character was set up for failure from the first episode.  Maybe if she'd been written different right from the get go.  Maybe if she'd spent the last five years dealing with her hurt and anger by not only working but also heading down to the old boxing gym and training with her father's old buddy, Uncle Wildcat.  Maybe set Wildcat up as the mentor that she turned to when her father lost himself in booze.  Maybe set it up that as Oliver comes back to her life, so does her father so that she would have something to do besides shuffle paperwork.  It could even be hinted that she has no idea how good she is when it comes to self-defense.   Agghhhh!!!!!

Now I'm frustrated because Laurel could have been a perfectly fine character but the writers were blind to the roadblocks they were setting up for her. 

[Monty]

They're pretty light on innocents for the bad guys to menace. Since Moira's frequently in league with the baddies and Quentin's the police, it's really just Laurel and Thea. If Laurel gets promoted to hero, I worry that Thea will have to get kidnapped in every episode.

[BkWurm1]

If pressured, they can always knock out Diggle or come up with a reason for Felicity to be in danger. Or here's a crazy idea, let a guest star get kidnapped. Then there could actually be suspense and consequences. Or they could just keep taking Laurel. And gagging her.

[Mars477]

I still can't get over how appropriate the title to this thread is.

[Carrie Ann]

I keep coming back to the idea of making Laurel a villain. And there are a couple of things they've dropped about Laurel this season that are really head-scratchers if they don't intend to go down that path. One is the story Sara told Oliver on the island, about how she had a crush on him first and Laurel knew it, and took advantage of Sara getting grounded to go after Oliver at a party. I saw a few people who thought Sara was lying, but I don't give that idea any credence because Sara had no motive to lie about that. So in that moment, Laurel is revealed as selfish, jealous, and a little ruthless. What's the point of that if they intend Laurel to be their heroine? They've already done plenty of breaking her down this season--showing her to be grasping and cruel is not necessary.

Another thing is when they showed Laurel in flashback, looking at apartments for her and Oliver while also clearly showing insecurity about their relationship. She knew Oliver didn't want to move in with her, but she was pushing ahead anyway, trying to sort of force him to stay with her. Again, if you're trying to make her your heroine and not Sara, why show this? To garner sympathy for her? It didn't work, if so. To me, it seemed to underline her willingness to turn a blind eye to reality and try to force her will on others.

The last thing is that little moment about the "darkness" in the last episode, which is a pretty big anvil to drop.

So I could see her going to the dark side, maybe even for a few seasons, and then they work on her redemption and ultimately she's the Black Canary just like Mark Guggenheim envisioned and continues to champion. Boo. But if she's ultimately going to be the BC, this is the only acceptable way. As those SPN clips show, KC seems to do better with the snarky stuff than the...Laurel stuff, so at least if we could get that for awhile, it'd be more tolerable to watch.

[BkWurm1]

If Laurel is going dark and yes, that line about letting the darkness in was a heavy anvil, why then did the show bother to "redeem" her?  I could understand sending her to AA but then instead of showing her all cozy with Sara offering relationship advice, have her resent being pushed to forgive when she doesn't feel guilty. 

Now except for being a bit ruthless in getting her job back, which I think she was pretty justified in, I don't see any of this darkness. 

[Zalyn]

They're pretty light on innocents for the bad guys to menace. Since Moira's frequently in league with the baddies and Quentin's the police, it's really just Laurel and Thea. If Laurel gets promoted to hero, I worry that Thea will have to get kidnapped in every episode.

"Dawn's in trouble... it must be Tuesday" It does seem that there is a very different genre of show when you no longer have hapless regulars to be menaced and instead have everyone be heroic to an extent but take turns suffering.

If Laurel is going dark and yes, that line about letting the darkness in was a heavy anvil, why then did the show bother to "redeem" her?  I could understand sending her to AA but then instead of showing her all cozy with Sara offering relationship advice, have her resent being pushed to forgive when she doesn't feel guilty. 

Now except for being a bit ruthless in getting her job back, which I think she was pretty justified in, I don't see any of this darkness. 

I don't see the darkness either.  I guess I have a less judgemental view of addiction and drug use (it's something I study) so if I see a character turning to alcohol or pills, I don't immediately think, "Oooh, they're going DARK!" (Yes, it's a problem, but it's still a symptom, not a driver of plot).  If they're lying to loved ones, stealing, letting other people get in trouble (by not meeting someone when they're supposed to), then I start feeling "darkness."  So if a person in Starling City who had a crime committed against them, say, domestic violence, was meeting with Laurel, but she got drunk at home instead, and the person got hurt again, that would show bad consequences.  Then if she didn't emotionally care about that person, that would show some real "going dark."

Heck, Thea did a lot more "darkness" while Oliver was gone, and it was seen as her being a spoiled brat. 

Edited April 9, 2014 by Zalyn

[quarks]

I think that's an additional problem with Laurel, as if the characterization needed any more problems.

Compared to so many of the characters, and even the good guys, she really hasn't done anything that terrible. Last season her big error was not scanning documents into her clinic's system allowing copies of the documents to be quickly transferred to some sort of cloud system or external hard drive and then ignoring warnings from everyone to get out of the clinic which is what led to Tommy's death. Bad decisions, but compared to Oliver running around killing people and Thea's DUI and Roy stealing things and getting into physical fights and Felicity's various cyber crimes and Moira conspiring with the Undertaking and allowing her husband to be kidnapped, really not all that bad. This season Laurel had a DUI, stole pain pills, got drunk to solve her problems, shot a guy who had kidnapped her, let the main bad guy get away, and engaged in a touch of blackmail against an incompetent DA's office. (I think the worst part of that is that really, someone in the press does need to explore just how incompetent that place is.)  Again, not all that bad compared to her sister the professional assassin and Oliver who also shot a guy who had kidnapped his friend and who has taken his hypocrisy with his mother and sister to new levels.

The end result is that Laurel is both less heroic than everyone on the show including many of the bad guys (last season she was unable to win her cases/help people without the Hood's help; this season she's had a grand total of two heroic moments and one likeable moment, and has managed to achieve less than everyone else on the show, including the bad guys), and yet also less evil than everyone on the show, including the good guys. On purely an ethical/moral level I really should like her more, and yet.

This also means that I'm left guessing about what path, exactly, the writers have her on. I thought she was headed to death or villainy by the end of the season, but she's not being set up as a tragic figure on the road to redemption that we can all sniffle over when she's killed off (hi, Sara and Moira) (not to mention that since she no longer seems to be Oliver's true love or even comparatively recent love her death wouldn't have the same impact on him), and she hasn't gone really dark yet.  But if she's headed for the hero road - well, on the one hand, she has a lot less to atone for, and on the other hand, why give us that thudding line about darkness?

[Carrie Ann]

I definitely don't see Laurel's addiction as part of her "darkness." I see it as an illness, and one that happens to be hereditary in her case. As far as we know, she never turned to alcohol or drugs until Tommy died, but after Sara and Oliver "died," she apparently threw herself into law school and then her career. She seemed healthy, but as she said to Sara, she felt like she died that day too. So those five years that she seemed to be thriving, she was really putting on an act. Only when she started opening herself up to Tommy did she start feeling like she was coming back to life. So I see that workaholism and her substance abuse as a symptom of her inability to deal with pain and her unwillingness to face reality, which could lead her to darker places.

As far as why the show bothered to redeem her, I think they had to, if they're going to bring her back down again in a different way. I have some thoughts about how that could go, but that "darkness" line made me think that the writers want it to be clear that Laurel hasn't cleared away all the demons. That's gonna come back somehow.

[statsgirl]

Is the show willing to explore a real darkness in Laurel?  Or are they only throwing the idea in to see if the audience will buy it?

I agree, addiction isn't a real darkness, it's an illness.  And while believing that Oliver and Sara had died was traumatic, it's wasn't the sort of thing that should have stopped her life, the way losing both parents and going into foster care would for a younger person, or being raped could.  Nor did it stop Laurel's life, she continued on to law school, passed the bar, got a good job and her own apartment and life.

Sara, on the other hand, with the shipwreck, year with Ivo, League of Assassins and goodness knows what else, I could truly believe that she has a darkness if the show told me so.  As Anatoli said "When did you get so scary?"

It feels like the show wants us to sympathize with Laurel without her actually showing a darkness or going through what it takes to get it.  Roy has his Mirakiru and his mother's addiction, Thea is learning about her parentage, Diggle had Afghanistan, Sara, Oliver and Slade all had their terrors, but the show is doing a half-assed job with Laurel.

If they wanted her addiction to be a real crucible, it should have lasted longer, and brought her lower.  As it was, it feels like it was just a hand-wave.

[catrox14]

I just really struggle with them trying to turn her into Black Canary. And honestly, I'm not sure I could stay with the show if they go that direction. 

I think playing a snarky, duplicitous character is in Cassidy's wheelhouse (based on her role as Ruby in SPN). I could live with her becoming a snide villain who still carries around the bitter pill of "Sarah took my whole life" and then Laurel would spend her time trying to ruin Sarah and Oliver's life by partnering with Slade Wilson. 

Go villain or go home :)

[Happy Harpy]

 

The nearest comparison I can think of is Cordelia from Buffy, and either Charisma Carpenter is a better actress or the writing was substantially better (probably both), but they managed to soften Cordy up without making her into a completely different character.

The difference, for me, is that Cordelia wasn't supposed to be "good", so expectations where low and the character could be built little by little (starting with Angel's "She told me the truth", since for me Cordelia's defining characteristic was her frankness)  whereas Laurel was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips from the start so it made it difficult to give her layers when it happened that plan A -the whole fandom loves her at first sight because of her name and place in the comic and because a CW name plays her- failed (YMMV, that's only my impression).

The last move from TPTB imo show how cornered they are with this character. Laurel isn't Oliver's girlfriend anymore. She's his current girlfriend's sister, only. She might have magically *cough* contrivance *cough* wormed her way back in the DA office, but she certainly isn't in a position of power there. Oliver admitted he has a blind spot about her, so he is supposed to know better now and is supposed to be over her and in love with her sister. So why would Slade reveal to her of all people, and not to Quentin, not to the DA, not to Moira (oh, the mess!) that Oliver is the Arrow?

I have only one answer. Because TPTB didn't find a way to naturally, organically involve Laurel in the general plot, so stomping on the secrecy to force her presence was the only way they found to, once more, try to make this character relevant (re: TPTB comments about how people who didn't like her might come to love her) in my very humble opinion. And in my very humble and very biased opinion, they're wasting their time and precious screentime. I didn't hate Andrea on TWD and I liked Lori on Hawaii 5-0, but I personally think that Laurel is as a lost cause as they were; and I wish that the writers focused on what works imo instead of her.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[calliope1975]

but I personally think that Laurel is as a lost cause as they were; and I wish that the writers focused on what works imo instead of her.

 

I couldn't agree more. For a variety of reasons, this character isn't working. I'd rather they make her a full on villain or write her off the show (preferably not dead, just gone.) 

For whatever reason, though, TPTB seemed committed to shoehorning Laurel in, whether or not it makes any narrative sense. Didn't Smallville actually play "She Will Be Loved" over one of Lana's scenes? Makes me think of that.

[Monty]

For whatever reason, though, TPTB seemed committed to shoehorning Laurel in, whether or not it makes any narrative sense.

You mean like how she's suddenly hanging out in Club Verdant all the time despite being only thirty days sober?

[quarks]

It's such a long list, how can I pick just one?

[statsgirl]

 

So why would Slade reveal to her of all people, and not to Quentin, not to the DA, not to Moira (oh, the mess!) that Oliver is the Arrow?

This is actually the only part of it that makes sense to me.  (Slade telling her that is, not Slade showing up at her apartment and Laurel opening the door to him.)

Slade wants Oliver vulnerable and weak and part of that to have Oliver fighting on as many fronts as possible.  Moira is already estranged from him, Thea is now angry at him because she believes Oliver kept the secret of her paternity from her for years, and Quentin is in jail.  Not to mention Isabel is running QC for Slade.  So if Laurel freaks out about Oliver = The Vigilante, as Slade is hoping she'll do, then Oliver will have to contend with her too, and he'll have no time to do anything about Slade.

 

That said, I think they've tried just about everything to incorporate Laurel into the show and none of it has really worked, either because Laurel/KC doesn't fit or because it was handled sloppily (Laurel suspecting Sebastian Blood).  Maybe I'm missing something but right now the only solution I can see for Laurel is to have her join Slade's side for the next season.  It would provide storylines for Quentin, Sara and Thea as well as Oliver, and then maybe later they can bring her to Team Arrow in some form.

[CabotCove]

 Maybe I'm missing something but right now the only solution I can see for Laurel is to have her join Slade's side for the next season.

 

Im not keen on Slade as a villain, hopefully there isnt much of him next season. 

Edited April 13, 2014 by Conell

[Zalyn]

It would be interesting if Laurel had a gripe session with Thea... I could see them both talking around "Oliver's Secret" without realizing they're talking about completely different things.  A wicked writing team could do wonderfully evil things to the audience that way.

[quarks]

It has occurred to me that the LoA might kidnap Laurel at the end of the season as a hostage for Sara/Oliver's good behavior.  I realize that's a bit of a stretch, but that would at least serve the function of connecting Laurel to part of the plot.

I'm also all for anything that gives me more of Slade's lovely accent and snark, and let's face it, Laurel might well inspire some top notch snark.

[Zalyn]

It has occurred to me that the LoA might kidnap Laurel at the end of the season as a hostage for Sara/Oliver's good behavior.  I realize that's a bit of a stretch, but that would at least serve the function of connecting Laurel to part of the plot.

I'm also all for anything that gives me more of Slade's lovely accent and snark, and let's face it, Laurel might well inspire some top notch snark.

At least the writers will have exhausted every other option before damseling her, and I totally agree that some Slade snark aimed at Laurel could be satisfying.

[statsgirl]

I think I'm watching a different show than Andrew Kreisburg is making.

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-andrew-kreisberg-talks-about-the-state-of-oliver-laurel/16823

 

“Kreisberg appealed to the iconic comic book pairing as being like “Lois and Clark” – “they can break up, get together, sleep together, break up, get married, get divorced, she forgets him,” he points out… but he did admit that with the success of the show, “Lauriver” is one of those things that they can take their time on....

Having Oliver and Laurel get together in Season 1 was what people needed then, but then they needed them to go on a break, so Oliver can have his storyline with Sara for this season, which is what felt right to us. He has women in his life. He has Laurel, he has Felicity… Helena’s doing a 10-to-20 stretch… so I think that Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not,” Andrew continued.

Does he think that I am are rooting for Oliver and Laurel to get together in the end?  Or even to share scenes together?

[Zalyn]

I think I'm watching a different show than Andrew Kreisburg is making.

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-andrew-kreisberg-talks-about-the-state-of-oliver-laurel/16823

Does he think that I am are rooting for Oliver and Laurel to get together in the end?  Or even to share scenes together?

To Kreisburg: I need to break out some Barbara Walters -

Okay, so I've done my best to be measured in my criticisms of Laurel the character, but if he thinks I'm being nice because I've got my "Lauriver" shrine set up, he's utterly wrong.  Is there any fan of the show who is rooting for them? I honestly haven't seen anyone.

Also, his "He has women in his life" comment, given that he didn't include Moira or Thea, comes across as reminiscent of the "harem genre" anime with the guy surrounded by (binders full of) women lusting after him. Not cool, dude. 

[quarks]

Forgive me, but I am going to go on a bit of a rant here.

1. I don't think anyone "needed" Oliver and Laurel to get together in Season 1. I'd even make the counterargument and say that quite a few people were cheering on Laurel and Tommy.

2. "...so Oliver can have his storyline with Sara for this season..." Way to assure us that yes, this ends by the finale. Yes, I'd already guessed that (I'm even betting it happens next episode), but, still.

3. Since Kriesberg, not me, brought up the infamous "on a break" line, I should note that Ross at least had the decency to fight with Rachel and storm out before sleeping with another woman, and even with that, Rachel was horribly hurt which meant that we all got stuck with an off and on relationship FOR EIGHT TERRIBLE YEARS after that so this? NOT ENCOURAGING.  

4. But since I name dropped Ross/Rachel I will say that their actors did a better job of convincing me that the characters cared about each other and remained attracted to each other throughout that entire sequence, so, er, belated kudos, Friends! Sorry I said such mean things to you earlier.

5. If you want Laurel and Oliver to be Lois and Clark, then you have to make them Lois and Clark.  "I don't know my ex-boyfriend's secret identity but an evil supervillain just told me NOW WHAT" does not make you Lois. 

6. On a related note, "I'm going to cheat on my girlfriend with her sister, and then, later, when my now ex-girlfriend is apparently a struggling alcoholic, I'm going to sleep with her sister again, although, in my defense, my ex-girlfriend doesn't act like much of an alcoholic," does not make you Clark Kent.

7. In case it wasn't obvious, I'm not a Laurel fan, but she deserves better than this. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by quarks