Endeavour - General Discussion

[12catcrazy]

Yeah, this was kind of a lackluster episode, but as said above, still better than just about everything else on tv.   I think that the whistler is going to be the long-haired guy who had the thing for Naomi last episode or, possibly Ludo, but still thinking the former.   I guess that Endeavour can resist everything except temptation, but I guess the thought that his "friend" Lubo could be having his wife followed doesn't come into his head.  

I skipped over reading the "spoiler" thread above so I'm still trying to figure out how they're going to wrap this up in one episode next week.  I keep thinking that something bad is going to happen to Violetta though.  She seems like she's playing with fire. 

[M. Darcy]

FYI, the actress who played Hazel (Rebecca Saire) is married to Roger! And Gary was played by Roger’s son, William.

Weirdly, the episode of Shakespeare and Hathaway shown in DC on Saturday, also had Madhav Sharma playing an character with Alzheimers. 

. 

[buttersister]

Happy for Roger, hope it was a fun time for all.

So plot whatevers aside, I was concentrating on finding Sean's Endeavor sexy. Mostly at the end. Hadn't made that association before. Body language? Direction? Don't know. Don't care. Sorry next week's episode isn't three hours long. (Staying unspoiled so far.)

Edited August 17, 2020 by buttersister

[atlantaloves]

oh MORSE MORSE MORSE....you little devil dog. Still waters do run deep.  Whoa, I enjoyed it! Morse is a very sexy quiet fire, and when he smiles, swoon!😈

[Dessert]

7 hours ago, tootsie said:

 I won't even mention Ludo 's sense of style which is just so painful, even for the early 70's (which yes, I know were pretty awful...I lived through them, but still...the guy's rich as Midas and should do better.)

Talk about a spoiler! Only a villain would wear such hideous clothes! Morse is so lovestruck he can’t see what’s right in front of him. (I lived through them, too, and they were hideous then.)

[magdalene]

That red jacket was just too much.....and the color combinations in his other ensemble.  Oh lordie.

[rhys]

It's shocking to my time addled brain that next Sunday will be the last episode. This series has flown.

[Rickster]

There was a bit of a pun in the Tiffin Lane name of the street where the murders took place. A tiffin box is a metal box first used in India to transport meals, originally lunches from home to work locations.

 

[freddi]

15 hours ago, Alistaire said:

 I had missed on my first watch the very brief scene where he spies Morse with Violetta in the grove. Unlike Morse, who is so willing to criticize Thursday, Fred pulled his punches at the very end and merely asked, "How's about you?"

I have begun to wonder if Violetta, and not her husband, is the killer. . . if you add to that the vague timeline in "Oracle" regarding Morse's holiday in Venice, it's absolutely possible Violetta killed Molly Andrews.  

 

Yes, what surprised me about the car rendezvous was that it happened in such a visible area.  The camera shots gave the impression they were in the woods, but when the camera pulled away and we saw Thursday, we could see they were in a trafficked area.

Not sure what was vague about Endeavour's timeline in Venice?  Thursday said he was there for two weeks, and we know he was there when the first murder happened on New Year's Eve, because Thursday told Frazil the next morning.  Then after Endeavour returned, the time jump to May happened.  

[Rickster]

On 8/18/2020 at 6:24 AM, Alistaire said:

 

I may be mistaken, but I believe there was also a pun on the name "Fanny" made by the victim's talkative ex-wife.

And that is all I will say. 🤭

From a fansite, apparently Fanny and Johnnie refers to a couple who hosted their own popular TV cooking show in that era.

I found it odd that the ex wife referred to herself as the first wife, when we saw no sign of a second wife.

I also found it odd, although I guess not impossible, that the police had on file the fingerprints of the wrestler who left the handprint. I thought the mini tangent of the wrestler and Oberon straining credulity, at least the way it was presented. It seemed to me more the writers trying to insert a point, rather than something organic to the story. I felt much the same about the street gangs and Gary plot, which seemed directed primarily to having his mother have the confrontation at the end.

[sinycalone]

I can't believe Thursday just dismissed the fact that so many men had died in questionable circumstances as unimportant.  I know he's been obsessed by the towpath murder....but he's a seasoned cop who should be digging into those disappearances, too.

Edited August 23, 2020 by sinycalone

[buttersister]

6 hours ago, Alistaire said:

But he's also naive in the ways young people typically are. No one says that.

True, but that's been on display so perhaps no need. 

[freddi]

16 hours ago, Alistaire said:

My only complaint about this series is that Endeavour's youth is not remarked on more often by Bright and Thursday. He is still young enough to think with his... Andes Mountains? Is that how Max put it when they discovered Oberon Prince's body parts? But everyone always tells him he's a genius, in a class by himself, this superlative and that superlative. But he's also naive in the ways young people typically are. No one says that.

As for the timeline, yes, Thursday tells Frazill about his "vacation," but Thursday doesn't say ... We see Morse in Venice first, but there is nothing to say the murder in Oxford didn't occur beforehand,...

But the murder was New Year's Eve, as we saw in the pub and discussed afterward, when they were assessing who argued with whom.  And Endeavour was in Venice when the murder happened, as Thursday said the next morning.  

[Dessert]

6 hours ago, Alistaire said:

I'll have to rewatch for proof the opera and bedroom aftermath was New Year's Eve. Thanks for giving me an excuse to rewatch it again.

It’s definitely New Years Eve. When they’re in bed the next morning, Violeta asks Morse what time it is and he says “1970”. She then wishes him Happy New Year in Italian. Plus, the direction keeps alternating between scenes of Oxford on New Years Eve and Morse in Venice. There are no visual or spoken cues that those scenes are flashbacks or flash forwards. 

[12catcrazy]

I was starting to lean in the direction that Violetta was the killer, but wasn't the first victim (that we are aware of, the barmaid,, killed on New Year's Eve?  And wasn't Violetta in bed with Morse in Venice at that time?  Unless this turns out that BOTH Ludo and Violetta are murderers  (maybe they take turns...)  My money is STILL on the long haired researcher though.  

[tootsie]

Thanks to you, Rickster, for applying the phrase "non-organic" to some of the interwoven plots of episode 2. Perfect word. What you said was why I didn't enjoy it as much as usual (and "usual" is a LOT) Some of the side storylines seemed grafted onto the story. Maybe the concluding episode will prove me wrong, though, because that's certainly happened before. I'm slightly suspicious of the male researcher without long hair as well as the other guy, 12catcrazy, just because he was so snide and nasty. They're both feasible perps. If the murderer is killing young women because he dislikes them on general terms the older guy would seem to fit that motivation but I can't figure out, if that's the case , why kill the flasher, who is presumably anxious to display that he is not a young woman? And btw, we know who killed the torso in the suitcase, but did we ever hear what happened to the head and other missing parts of the victim? (I'm fine with not knowing. Really. Just wondering if I missed it because it's been a busy week and I didn't get to rewatch ep 2) So tomorrow all will be made clear in this much-too-short season.  Btw, was I the only one happy to see that Endeavour left the 'stache behind in the 60's?

[buttersister]

Quote

was I the only one happy to see that Endeavour left the 'stache behind in the 60's?

Lord, no. 

Can they CGI it out for future streamings?

I managed to stay away from Passport and any spoilers. Less than two hours before I stop answering the phone.

[M. Darcy]

I think I need to watch it again because my first reaction was what just happened??   There were 2 towpath killers? The boyfriend (Thursday was right!) and a copycat by the guy who found the first body. 

i guess 3 killers if you count Ludo. 

[Driad]

I like Max.  Better than I like Morse.

What opera were they watching?  How is the plot related to this story?  I started wondering in the first or second episode, but it seemed clear in this one.

Are we supposed to be able to read the papers the characters look at?  Mostly I couldn't, but one seemed to say Life something, likely insurance.  

[magdalene]

I don't understand what was going on. Has PBS cut the episode to shreds again?  What am I missing?

The thing I was spoiled to was that Thursday was right about the killer. So I figured it was the boyfriend after all, even though he seemed to have an alibi.  But there is more than one killer and I am all confused about that.

And then of course there is Ludo. 

And poor Bright.  How awful for him.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by magdalene

[M. Darcy]

23 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I don't understand what was going on. Has PBS cut the episode to shreds again?  What am I missing?

The thing I was spoiled to was that Thursday was right about the killer. So I figured it was the boyfriend after all, even though he seemed to have an alibi.  But there is more than one killer and I am all confused about that.

 

 

 

 

I think when the guy who found the first victim, something clicked in him and he also decided to kill. 

[buttersister]

I, for one, have some processing to do. But first, ladies and gentlemen, Fred Thursday to the rescue. But really, whatever happened to Thursday telling Morse to run with his theory (as long as it didn't interfere with a case). Comment brought on by my recent rewatch of the series—it just doesn't track. Although the "extra" scenes try to sell it as character growth.

Memorable moments thanks to Max and Mr. Bright. And poor Morse and his doomed love life.

Random thought about Morse's letter: He has ever been the best and wisest of men. Anybody else having Sherlock flashbacks?

And what about that scene from Ep 1 with Morse in a police station with blood on his shirt and a WTF look on his face? We know it's Violetta's but did PBS delete a scene or are we just meant to come full circle--if we bother to remember it?

Edited August 24, 2020 by buttersister
What about

[dargosmydaddy]

Yikes! That was grim.

The "there were two killers!" thing was a lot to swallow.

Shaun Evans is a treat to watch. Even though Morse was a complete asshole for large portions of the episode, I still felt for him in several scenes.

And even though I don't think Thursday is going anywhere before the series finale, I was still freaking out for his well-being in the last five minutes, so well played, show.

So Strange gets stabbed in the gut with a... poker? Bayonet? Umbrella? But the ambulance attendant knows he'll be fine (maybe he's watched Morse?). I do hope his sideburns go the way of Morse's mustache before next season. They're very distracting!

Quote

As for Thursday's mad dash across the continent and his uncanny ability to find (and get into) Morse' hotel room wherein I GUESS he found something that led him to the graveyard JUST in time to save the day -- oh please.

Violetta sent Morse a map of the cemetery and x'ed off where Ludo would be, which Morse then conveniently left behind in his hotel room. I was briefly convinced that this would lead to Morse accidentally shooting Fred...

Quote

And I find it difficult to swallow that it was Ludo's WIFE who skulked around setting up all those fake "accidents."  That IS what Ludo told Morse, right? 

I was unclear on that, too... surely it was Ludo who arranged Mrs. Bright's death, since he had actually been in the house... I assumed either he was the "Robin" who tested the Christmas lights and set them up to electrocute her, or else his merry group of faith healers were also all in on it (were they? surely Ludo didn't randomly infiltrate a group of faith healers... did he?), and one of them was "Robin"?

Quote

But somebody help me out.  Who was it that got hit by the car when the Matildabeasts stampeded?  They didn't get the killer.  Was that an innocent man?

Not innocent. He was the killer of the third girl (the murder at the beginning of the episode) while Carl Sturgiss (the original killer) was in prison. Apparently he was a copycat (and also discovered the first girl's body, which led him to his life of crime)... which seems extremely convenient.

I giggled the entire time the Mathildabeests were chasing him, though. I don't know why I found it so hilarious, but I did...

Edited August 24, 2020 by dargosmydaddy

[emuwings]

Just to clarify, "Andes Mountains" means "Hands"  in the RAGA (not raja) episode.

Credit to the superfan site author Chris Sullivan who I quote here:

Quote

The hands (andies) are connected to the wrists (wristies). The geograghical part of the joke is that for ‘andies’ read Andes. 

 

[magdalene]

You know to me the "tragic love" of the story was not Endeavour's  disastrous affair  - he sure knows how to pick them -  but the devoted love between the Brights.  Mrs.Bright was in remission from cancer only to be murdered in an insurance scam.  There is a tragic end to a love story for you.

[freddi]

Well, this honest to gosh terrified me a few times.  And I thought it was ending at least twice before it actually did (I watch on the PBS site, so don't know how far we are in terms of time, and like it that way).  When the telepathic (was she? yes, remember the mind-reading experiments) Jenny was captured in the stairwell, I gasped (I thought she had been killed).  And I don't think I breathed for the final four minutes, because I was so sure that Thursday was going to be killed.  

But why, why on *earth* would Morse send that letter and evidence to Joan Thursday?  Strange completely believed Morse, and Morse even told Thursday, "Jim will tell you all about it" at the House o' Rats.  Morse had not seen Joan for well over a year, so that was baffling.  It would have been so easy to give it to Strange.  

I need to watch this episode again, just to watch it without all the dread.  This was a dark, dark episode.  

And I agree that it was odd not to have five seconds of Morse in the Italian police station, to close the circle on the opening of the first episode.

Finally, the red letters in the final credits spelled out "La Traviata," an opera in which a wayward woman dies at the end, after finding true love in the middle, post-prostitution and pre-death -- just like Violetta.  Oh, and the "Traviata," which literally means "wayward woman," was named Violetta in the opera. 

(The opera we saw on stage was a new composition for this production, titled "The Demonic Wife" in translation.  And when I went back to check the title, I saw that the poster had the same monster in the background as on the wall of Molly!  I'll try to post the image.)  

ETA:  No, writers, please tell me you did NOT shoot and push Ludo into the canal but that they never find his body?  Which means that he will pop up like a perennial Moriarty in a future series?  Please don't pull that narrative nonsense on us!  

Edited August 24, 2020 by freddi

[EllenB]

So... Endeavor was right about the murders, but Fred was right about Endeavor having turned into a real dick.  And then he still saved him.  

I watch for Roger Allam, and somewhat for Anton Lesser, although the show turned Bright into a marshmallow.  It felt like "We made Bright too much of a turd at first, so let's give him a dying wife to show what a swell guy he really is."  I preferred him prickly.

The plot on this series was a bit much; maybe they'd planned for more episodes and the writers refused to give up any plot lines when faced with three episodes.

"YOU get a murderer! And YOU get a murderer! And YOU get a murderer! Murderers for everyone!"

[LennieBriscoe]

Well. Talk about an unsatisfactory denouement. Where to begin?

Personally, I prefer solutions that are better explained.

---For example, who were Ludo and Violetta, really? Was "Ludo" taken from that Venetian tombstone, from the English towns preyed upon, neither, both, or cause-and-effect?

---How and why did they pick those insurance victims (P.S. I found that plot too similar to that of "Law and Order": Season 7, Episode 12, "Barter")? Why did we never get any glimpse of smooth-talking Ludo's buying back anyone's policy? 

---How were at least some of those "freak accidents" arranged? Especially the creepy "committee" one of Mrs. Bright? (And who were THEY, remaining uncaught?!)

---Really, show? Violetta dies not only dramatically but even operatically? And Ludo is a Suicide-by-Cop? Not to mention the Deus-ex-Machina of Thursday's being ITRPATRT (In the right place....)!

---Then there's Endeavour's brash willingness to throw over friendships, old and new, for (as it happens) misplaced trust in his "gut," as it were.

--1.) Thursday was right all along about Towpath Murderer Sturgis (Sidebar: Young women still walked alone thereon?! Police had no added presence?! Jeez Louise!).

--2.) And married Violetta was all wrong, period, as, again, Thursday intuited when he saw them together. 

---Finally, I found the airing of pent-up negative opinions of the other between Morse and Thursday as disconcerting as did Strange. 

So! 

Love me some Venice always (been thrice)! But for Morse, "La Serenissima" turned out not to be, so much. 

He could at least have bought Violetta a mask, or what's a metaphor?! 

https://www.123rf.com/photo_13562956_woman-wearing-venetian-mask-on-a-white-background.html

Edited August 24, 2020 by LennieBriscoe

[LennieBriscoe]

On 8/16/2020 at 8:33 AM, Alistaire said:

Either that, or Eddie Nero still has friends in high places, and someone holds a grudge about Jago's death. (Which survived--Jago or Box? I thought both, shot at such close range, would have died, but Bright claims at the end of DeGuello that one survived.)

[EDIT] Anyone notice that the guy's last name is actually "Talenti?" Now that's a bit too .007 for me 🙂

Are you perhaps thinking of Largo's similar-sounding yacht, the "Disco Volante" in "Thunderball"? I can't find a "Talenti"! 

I will say that Morse standing while riding on the vaporetto looked a bit Bondish!  

 

[freddi]

20 minutes ago, LennieBriscoe said:

I will say that Morse standing while riding on the vaporetto looked a bit Bondish!  

It reminded me of similar shots in the terrifying film “Don’t Look Now,” about tragedy, murder, and psychic phenomena in Venice.  

[tootsie]

7 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I assumed either he was the "Robin" who tested the Christmas lights and set them up to electrocute her, or else his merry group of faith healers were also all in on it (were they? surely Ludo didn't randomly infiltrate a group of faith healers... did he?), and one of them was "Robin"?

Infiltrating faith healers was only 1 of many Qs I had but you know what? I DON'T CARE. Go ahead, show. Strain the bonds of believability all you want. I can take it. Fred can be at exactly the right place at the right time to save Morse's life. Strange can get stabbed in the gut and the EMT guy - apparently another person with ESP capabilities (he should go take that research read-the-card test) says cheerily that no worries, he'll pull through. Bad guy brother has an airtight alibi that even Ms. Frazill recognizes but he's still (one of) the towpath murderers. I don't care that Morse left the phone number of his love nest at the police station so he could be reached in the middle of a tryst or that Violetta must have been skulking around loosening ageing farm equipment & drowning men in pig swill or that she murdered her Lebanese nightclub singer friend & then willy-nilly took over her digs & KEPT HER PICTURE OUT on the table so Morse could make a convenient matchup with a newspaper article later. And fake Robin (yes. A bird. I get it.) having enough time to untangle Christmas lights, let alone turn them into a murder weapon? Ha. But I'm not going to dwell on these things because that scene at the table with Endeavour, Vi, & Ludo was so worth it. For this longtime "Morse" fan, it was an incredible but viable explanation for how that beautiful young man Endeavour turned into John Thaw's (& Colin Dexter's) crotchety, sentimental, brilliant Morse. Endeavour's airy comment to Vi, "He knows now," so unrepentant & certain of his happy ending & just-a-touch-relieved that it's all out in the open made me dislike Morse & love him simultaneously. I am determined to fit in a rewatch this week because although fixated on the telly screen practically w/o blinking for the entire show, I know I missed baskets of clues.  Thanks to Freddi for the info about the opera playing out on stage. Interesting stuff, all.

[sinycalone]

I know I will have to watch it again....but in the meantime:

Which women were killed by Sturgis, and which by the man hit by the car?  

I could accept going to the cemetery because of the map left behind by Morse...but how did he get into Morse's room.  (Small point, but annoying.)

Who killed the flasher?

Otherwise, I was so caught up on the episode, that I just accepted a lot of "convenient" details.

I think the photo was left in the flat by Violetta because she did feel some remorse.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by sinycalone

[tootsie]

14 minutes ago, sinycalone said:

I could accept going to the cemetery because of the map left behind by Morse...but how did he get into Morse's room.  (Small point, but annoying.)

Maybe Fred flashed his police credentials to the front desk...but that was my 1st thought, too.

[dargosmydaddy]

1 hour ago, sinycalone said:

Which women were killed by Sturgis, and which by the man hit by the car? 

All of them except the one killed at the beginning of episode 3, when Sturgiss was in jail, I think. That one (the college girl) was the copy cat/ car coma guy.

1 hour ago, sinycalone said:

Who killed the flasher?

I think that was supposed to be Sturgiss, too? He was upset that someone else was on his "turf." There was a lot of supposition in all this...

8 hours ago, freddi said:

But why, why on *earth* would Morse send that letter and evidence to Joan Thursday?  Strange completely believed Morse, and Morse even told Thursday, "Jim will tell you all about it" at the House o' Rats.  Morse had not seen Joan for well over a year, so that was baffling.  It would have been so easy to give it to Strange.  

Yeah, that was weird. I'm assuming Strange was still in the hospital and Morse didn't want to bother him, but surely he knew Joan (who was supposed to have been home for Christmas) would have done the same thing with the letter that Mrs. Thursday did-- show it to Fred immediately! So maybe Morse really did want Fred to follow (hence leaving the cemetery map easily visible... and maybe even his hotel room unlocked!).

3 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

(Sidebar: Young women still walked alone thereon?! Police had no added presence?! Jeez Louise!).

Well, they thought they had the killer at first, right? So I get how the third girl felt safe/ why there was no police presence then. And the fourth girl/ almost victim was being used as bait so the herd of Mathildabeasts could pounce. But yeah, I'm not sure why there weren't any police around then. Or why they couldn't have tried their own sting (are there no female police since Trewlove left?).

6 hours ago, EllenB said:

It felt like "We made Bright too much of a turd at first, so let's give him a dying wife to show what a swell guy he really is."  I preferred him prickly.

I did love his not-really attempt of an apology to Morse... telling Fred to tell Morse "...well, you'll come up with something." And then insisting he was still right. LOL. My favorite Bright moment is still from series 3 when he seemed to wish he could've saved the tiger's life over Morse's. He is so passive aggressive towards him, it's hilarious.

 

[HelenBaby]

What I’m not quite understanding is why did Ludo & Violetta pick Morse to toy with? Did they know who he was in the beginning when Vi picked him up at the opera? Did they start the insurance scam before meeting him or after? Did they kill the tv chef in the Raja episode? Sorry, I do understand the basic crimes and how they were solved but I missed some details apparently.

[sinycalone]

27 minutes ago, HelenBaby said:

What I’m not quite understanding is why did Ludo & Violetta pick Morse to toy with? Did they know who he was in the beginning when Vi picked him up at the opera? Did they start the insurance scam before meeting him or after? Did they kill the tv chef in the Raja episode? Sorry, I do understand the basic crimes and how they were solved but I missed some details apparently.

They did not kill the tv chef....that was the chef at the Jolly Rajah restaurant.

I believe they started the scam before they met Morse...they had worked in a total of 4 cities.

Ludo said that they wanted Endeavor as their pet policeman....but I am not sure when or how he was chosen to be seduced by Violetta.

Edited August 24, 2020 by sinycalone

[12catcrazy]

Wow, what a disappointment, especially considering how exciting last season's final episode was.   

Did they REALLY need to kill off Mrs Bright by having her murdered of all things?   And since we didn't actually see Ludo's body being pulled from the canal, I'm truly worried about what somebody said up-thread about him winding up as" Moriarty".  And why exactly did he target Morse, as opposed to any other cop to be his "useful idiot"?  Was that ever explained?   And I guess he didn't really go to Oxford with Morse (or did he?).  And I'm still trying to figure out how the guy with the supposed airtight alibis (who Thursday suspected from the get go), wound up being the killer.  What happened with his alibis?   I dunno - either a bunch of stuff was cut out of these episodes or the writers were being really sloppy.  I pay close attention while watching the show, but seemed to have missed alot.  

I did figure that the boy missing after the fire was going to turn up and was probably behind the mayhem.  While the bar tender was being interviewed, I thought it was probably going to be the "cleared" suspect.  Got that much right, I guess.  

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, 12catcrazy said:

And I'm still trying to figure out how the guy with the supposed airtight alibis (who Thursday suspected from the get go), wound up being the killer. 

He did have an airtight alibi, he was in police custody.  Unfortunately for Oxford, but fortunately for Sturgess, that was when the copycat killer struck, effectively exonerating Sturgess.

All in all, a weak season.  In the last episode, there wasn't one killer victimizing people on the basis of insurance claims, but two?  Isn't that a tad coincidental?

Edited August 24, 2020 by sugarbaker design

[sinycalone]

6 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

He did have an airtight alibi, he was in police custody.  Unfortunately for Oxford, but fortunately for Sturgess, that was when the copycat killer struck, effectively exonerating Sturgess.

All in all, a weak season.  In the last episode, there wasn't one killer victimizing people on the basis of insurance claims, but two?  Isn't that a tad coincidental?

I think the original poster meant an airtight alibi for the killing of the barmaid, his exgirlfriend, the first murder we saw on the towpath...not the one in episode 3.

Also, it was two people working the scam...as a team...Ludo and Violetta.

[Dessert]

6 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Really, show? Violetta dies not only dramatically but even operatically?

I mentioned before, but didn’t want to spoil anyone, that the love story between Morse and Violetta is very loosely based on the opera La Traviata (The Fallen Woman). La Traviata is referred to once or twice this season.

 In the opera, Violetta is a famous courtesan and mistress of a Baron. A young, middle class man, Alfredo, falls in love with her and she with him. She leaves the Baron to live with him and they plan to marry. Alfredo’s father convinces her to break with Alfredo because such a marriage would destroy his son socially and financially. She breaks with Alfredo for his own good, telling him she never loved him. When she is dying from tuberculosis, he learns the truth and goes to her. She dies in his arms telling him that she always loved him.

The Endeavour romance is not a complete remake, but there are some loose references. Given the opera, a lover named Violetta would almost have to die in Morse’s arms, telling him she had always loved him. She would also have to cruelly break with him earlier, denying her love in order to save him. At the end, in her conversation with Ludo, she says that he had agreed not to kill Morse, as he had planned. I assume that she had been pleading for his life and her break with Morse was part of the bargain. The opera even has a scene with roses.

I don’t think the original meeting at the opera in Venice was planned. I do think that Ludo found out and that’s why he researched Morse and showed up in Oxford. 

[LennieBriscoe]

I rather think that we are all "long-time" "Endeavour" fans, we happy few who post.

I still prefer, especially with a show as---I'm just going to say it---full of literary pretensions as this, inherent logic. Not realistic logic, necessarily, but structural logic.

And for me, that requires that we are allowed to understand, to grasp---plot, characterization, motivation, setting, metaphors, etc. Because THEY MAKE DRAMATIC SENSE. 

But then there's being hit over the head. Was it really necessary for Morse to go to Venice to meet his own Violetta (a name chosen by the villains simply because of the opera that week? What if Morse had visited to see "Aida"? "Madame Butterfly"?)?

Indeed, how did the Talentis know of Morse's trip to Venice in the first place, never mind his doings there, and REALLY never mind where his ticket seated him behind Violetta?! Or that he would be seducible? 

On another note: Thursday and Morse are all squared now. I believe there will be only the frostiest of a relationship in Season 8, and the parting will be final. 

Because whereas Thursday took Morse to task over his snobbishness---behaviors and attitudes that can be changed---Endeavour went for Fred's career jugular, attacking his "intellect,...finesse," that he, Thursday, was good for solving only cases of "bank robberies [and] car thieves...."

 

[freddi]

Here are the two images I mentioned way back:  the same essential monster outline in Jenny's secret room and as the backdrop of the opera poster of "The Demonic Wife" (the "demon"/devil is the red backdrop figure):

Edited August 24, 2020 by freddi

[Dessert]

16 minutes ago, LennieBriscoe said:

But then there's being hit over the head. Was it really necessary for Morse to go to Venice to meet his own Violetta (a name chosen by the villains simply because of the opera that week? What if Morse had visited to see "Aida"? "Madame Butterfly"?)?

The opera they saw in Venice was not La Traviata. It was an original opera written by Russ Lewis and others. 

I don’t think the initial meeting at the opera was planned or that she knew who he was at that point. They were just immediately attracted to each other. She told him that she always went to the opera on New Year’s Eve in memory of her father. That’s how Morse knew how to find her when he returned to Venice at the end.

[dargosmydaddy]

15 minutes ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Indeed, how did the Talentis know of Morse's trip to Venice in the first place, never mind his doings there, and REALLY never mind where his ticket seated him behind Violetta?! Or that he would be seducible? 

As @Dessert said, I don't think that was planned. Either Violetta decided to tell Ludo early on, or (more likely?) Ludo found out on his own and decided to insert himself into Morse's life after knowing he'd already fallen for Violetta.

16 minutes ago, LennieBriscoe said:

On another note: Thursday and Morse are all squared now. I believe there will be only the frostiest of a relationship in Season 8, and the parting will be final. 

I'm very curious to see where they go with this... Both of these past two seasons have set up perfect exits (Thursday is corrupt and Morse can never forgive him; Thursday and Morse fight, and Morse feels guilty and can never bare to mention him again) had Thursday died. And then Thursday didn't die (and it turned out he wasn't really corrupt (series 6), and Morse has sent him the very heartfelt apology (series 7)). I don't necessarily think their relationship will be frosty next series, but I don't think they can unsay what they've said, either. And I do think something major is going to happen between them next year above and beyond Thursday's death (which seems inevitable). 

[Dessert]

I wish they wouldn’t go down this route of trying too hard to explain why Thursday is never mentioned in the original Morse. I love Roger Allam and Thursday, but this falling out with Morse seems a bit too contrived.

 I’ve watched the Inspector Morse series and Morse doesn’t talk much about his past unless it comes up in an investigation. For instance, viewers only learn about McNutt in one episode and Morse adored and respected him. I’m so excited about the coming appearance of McNutt, btw. He was a great character! 

[freddi]

10 minutes ago, Dessert said:

 don’t think the initial meeting at the opera was planned or that she knew who he was at that point. They were just immediately attracted to each other. She told him that she always went to the opera on New Year’s Eve in memory of her father. That’s how Morse knew how to find her when he returned to Venice at the end.

Except, that "memory" probably was not true, as Ludo (or whatever his name was) said he found her on the back streets of Naples at age fifteen.  Does not sound like an opera-attending upbringing.  But maybe she adopted this as her backstory.  If she really loved Morse, you'd think she went to the opera on December 31, 1970 (the second time he saw her) in the hope he would find her.  

I am still completely baffled at the reason Ludo thought that Morse would be his "creature" -- what on earth good would that have done?  Generally, scam artists tend to stay away from the authorities.  And I have to say that earning a "fortune" 7000 pounds at a time (after the payoff to the insurance holder) is hardly a way to create a lavish lifestyle.  And every 7000 pounds would be another murder, so very labour-intensive.  

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, sinycalone said:

I think the original poster meant an airtight alibi for the killing of the barmaid, his exgirlfriend, the first murder we saw on the towpath...not the one in episode 3.

Also, it was two people working the scam...as a team...Ludo and Violetta.

Thanks.

Concerning the two killers, I meant Sturgiss and Ludo.  Were Sturgiss and Ludo both killing people for insurance, independently of one another?  Or was Sturgiss a garden variety serial killer and Ludo the lone insurance killer?  Very convoluted season, I've read all the Morse novels, and while I never solved any cases, I always understood what happened thanks to Colin Dexter's wonderful writing.  Not so much with Endeavour.

[Dessert]

54 minutes ago, freddi said:

Except, that "memory" probably was not true, as Ludo (or whatever his name was) said he found her on the back streets of Naples at age fifteen.  Does not sound like an opera-attending upbringing.  But maybe she adopted this as her backstory.  If she really loved Morse, you'd think she went to the opera on December 31, 1970 (the second time he saw her) in the hope he would find her.  

I am still completely baffled at the reason Ludo thought that Morse would be his "creature" -- what on earth good would that have done?  Generally, scam artists tend to stay away from the authorities.  And I have to say that earning a "fortune" 7000 pounds at a time (after the payoff to the insurance holder) is hardly a way to create a lavish lifestyle.  And every 7000 pounds would be another murder, so very labour-intensive.  

Good point. I still don’t think the original meeting was a set up, though.

When Ludo says that Morse was supposed to be his “creature”, I think that he meant sexually and romantically. Pure speculation, but that’s the only way that he was Violetta’s “creature”. Ludo flirted with Morse heavily! He always seemed more into the friendship than Morse, especially after Morse found out he was married to Violetta. Several times he complained about not having seen Morse lately and missing him. If the seduction had been successful, he probably would have tried to involve Morse in his schemes.

The insurance scam does seem like a lot of work for a limited result. Ludo probably had other scams going and may have come from money. Serial killer storylines often don’t holdup if you think about them.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Dessert
Spelling.

[buttersister]

Ludo got off on seeing/trolling info from the photos Morse brought home from work. But he couldn't have known that Morse would do that, as Strange pointed out, it's against the rules. So, hints/anvils of his involvement. 

Agree, sugarbaker design, Russel Lewis can write good scripts, but he's no Colin Dexter.

[freddi]

26 minutes ago, Dessert said:

Good point. I still don’t think the original meeting was a set up, though.

I completely agree that their meeting at the opera house (the first one) was a coincidence, not a setup.

But, not to go all puritanical on you all, a beautiful woman in a stunning gown, elegant hairstyle, and invented backstory who goes to the opera and sits alone in a seat where the entire audience can see her, on a night when everyone is paired up, is making it evident that she is looking for high-level company.  And she found it in the dashing Endeavour in 1969.  He read her signals completely right. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by freddi