When They See Us - General Discussion

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

The Central Park Five is an upcoming American drama web television miniseries created by Ava DuVernay that is set to premiere in 2019 on Netflix. DuVernay also serves as a writer for the series and is expected to direct every episode. The series documents the famous Central Park jogger case from 1989 in which a jogger was attacked in Central Park in New York City. In that case, five juvenile males were subsequently convicted of the crime before being exonerated in 2002.

The Central Park Five extends "from 1989 when five Harlem teens were incorrectly convicted first in the media and then twice in the courts for the brutal rape of a jogger in the NYC park to 2014 when Antron McCray, Kevin Richardson, Yusef Salaam, Raymond Santana and Korey Wise saw their names finally cleared."

Cast:

• Jharrel Jerome as Korey Wise
• Jovan Adepo as Antron McCray
• Caleel Harris as Young Anton McCray
• Chris Chalk as Yusef Salaam
• Ethan Herisse as Young Yusef Salaam
• Freddy Miyares as Raymond Santana
• Marquis Rodriguez as Young Raymond Santana
• Justin Cunningham as Kevin Richardson
• Asante Blackk as Young Kevin Richardson
• Michael K. Williams as Bobby McCray
• Vera Farmiga as Elizabeth Lederer
• John Leguizamo as Raymond Santana Sr.
• Felicity Huffman as Linda Fairstein
• Niecy Nash as Delores Wise
• Aunjanue Ellis as Sharone Salaam
• Kylie Bunbury as Angie Richardson
• Marsha Stephanie Blake as Linda McCray
• Storm Reid as Lisa
• Joshua Jackson as Mickey Joseph
• Christopher Jackson as Peter Rivera
• Adepero Oduye as Nomsa Berth
• Omar Dorsey as Elombre Brath
• Blair Underwood
• Famke Janssen as Nancy Ryan
• William Sadler
• Aurora Perrineau

[formerlyfreedom]

Premiere date released, name changed, and a new trailer!

Ava DuVernay’s ‘Central Park Five’ Gets Netflix Debut Date, New Name + Teaser

Quote

The four-part series formerly known as Central Park Five will be called When They See Us and will be going global on the streamer on May 31, the Oscar-nominated director revealed this morning.

“In 1989, five black and brown teen boys were wrongly accused of a crime they did not commit and branded The Central Park Five, a moniker that has followed them since that time. In 2019, our series gives the five men a platform to finally raise their voices and tell their full stories,” said DuVernay today on the name change.

“In doing so, Korey, Antron, Raymond, Kevin and Yusef also tell the story of many young people of color unjustly ensnared in the criminal justice system,” the 13th and A Wrinkle In Time helmer added. “We wanted to reflect this perspective in our title, embracing the humanity of the men and not their politicized moniker.”

[formerlyfreedom]

[Spartan Girl]

Watching the first episode now. I'm so mad I can barely see straight.

Kevin in particular is breaking my heart.

[texassunflower]

I just watched the first episode. How did the police get away with interrogating minors without a parent present? Raymond had his grandmother who didn't speak English and Antron' s parents were present but no one spoke up and asked for a lawyer. How did these confessions hold up in a court of law? I didn't realize the boys didn't know each other except for Korey and Yusef. I have heard of the case but I am unfamiliar with the details. This appears to be a well done series but I suspect it will be wretching to watch. The young actors are doing a great job.

[meatball77]

I just finished the episode.  It made me so angry.  Those boys were so young and scared.  I'm sure they looked like tough kids, but even adults don't know how to handle the court system.  Even adults without a lawyer, but teenagers.  One of them his mother didn't even know they had him in custody.
I'm sure that they confessed to doing something small because I'm sure they were being told that otherwise they were going to get charged with murder and that the other kids said they were there.  It was probably enough to make an adult confess with all the lies and threats I'm sure they were hurling at them.
I am surprised that none of the kids thought to ask for a lawyer.  I would think with the neighborhood they lived in that they would know a bit about that, although that alone may show that they really weren't bad kids.  They not only weren't rapists, but they weren't the type that hung out with drug dealers and gangsters (which is probably why they were brought in, the other kids there may have had enough experience with the law to know how to deal with a situation like that.

[Spartan Girl]

I watched a documentary about it a few days ago and what really made me angry is how the cops interviewed basically doubled down and refused to admit any culpability for what they done. They were basically like "they may not be the rapists but they were in the park harassing and attacking people, and now people are treating them like they're innocent victims and they get to get rich for suing us."  Disgusting.

I know I shouldn't be shocked considering what we deal with today but still...

I watched the second episode and it killed me that the mothers had to endure He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named going on TV calling for their sons to be put to death. Imagine how they feel now knowing that his fifteen minutes of fame got extended to the White House.

[TexasGal]

Just finished the first episode, agree with y’all this is gut wrenching.  It’s really well done but I don’t know if I can watch anymore.  When they approached the kids on the street and asked for ID because they were supposed to talk to any “thugs” I may have screamed “F*ck you” at the screen very loudly. 

[meatball77]

Even if the kids did it calling for the death penalty for minors is insane!

[Spartan Girl]

I just finished the final episode. The fact that Cory survived prison is nothing short of a miracle. That alternate history daydream of staying with his girlfriend at KFC instead of going to the park that night destroyed me.

 I can't believe he encountered the real rapist in prison. And no I will not give him one modicum of credit of coming forward over a decade later because one 1) he didn't do it sooner and 2) he's still a scumbag rapist and a murderer. Though he's certainly not the only villain in this story.

Linda Fairstein can burn in hell. Along with those cops and the other people whose  names I won't utter.

[raezen]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Linda Fairstein can burn in hell. Along with those cops and the other people whose  names I won't utter.

I was genuinely shocked to realize she was the author Linda Fairstein who writes the Alexandra Cooper books. I never thought I'd endorse a book burning but her books can follow her to hell.

[sereion]

I just finished watching the entire series, and there is sooo much to unpack. I was familiar with this case, but seeing what these young men experienced had me seething with anger.

So basically Fairstein and her crew was so desperate to apprehend the somone---anyone, they threw any BS theory against the wall hoping it would stick, and when it didn't, they coerced confessions from all--except for Yusef--whose mother thankfully, wasn't having it. They were all collateral damage as a result.

Despite a confession from Reyes, and  solid evidence--including DNA--that he acted alone,  they were too delusional to admit any wrongdoing, and still insist that they were guilty,  and they have the chutzpah to get salty after the five men received their much deserved settlement. Despicable.

Fairstein is trash, and I'm disgusted that she is out here living her best life as author, knowing that she ruined these kids.  I'm not going talk about that orange, corrosive slime who's currently squatting at the White House. 

I wanted to hug Korey during the incarceration scenes; I immediately thought of Kalief Browder as he was the same age as Korey when got locked up. The fact that he made it 12 years and is still around to share his story is incredible.

Once again, Ava came through. She can do no wrong. Give her all the awards.

Jharell Jerome needs to go ahead and prepare his acceptance speeches. Yes, I'm claiming that one. Give him all the nods and awards, too.

Edited June 2, 2019 by sereion

[marymon]

So many scary and awful things here. But it seems they could have literally pick any boy of color near the park that night and railroaded them the same way.    They just happen to pick these particular 5 boys.

[texassunflower]

The last episode was difficult to watch. Korey was placed in an adult prison at 16 years old. Who decided that he should be tried as an adult? His trial was combined with Kevin's and Kevin was sent to juvenile detention along with Raymond, Antron, and Yusef. He also did double their time. He kept asking to be transferred and each time was sent farther from his mom. Being placed in solitary all those years probably saved his life but what a miserable existence. All but Korey have left New York, married and have children. I wonder if Korey still has family in New York? He obviously has a learning disability and may just feel more comfortable in familiar surroundings. This mini series was extremely well done, will probably be nominated and win numerous awards, but was really difficult to watch. I only stayed with it because I knew the outcome.

[Neurochick]

19 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Linda Fairstein can burn in hell. Along with those cops and the other people whose  names I won't utter.

I agree.  

I saw the first two parts of this movie at a premiere at the Apollo theater about two weeks ago.  Ava DuVernay was there, as were the adult cast (minus Felicity Huffman) Before they aired it, Ava said if we stayed we'd have a surprise; so I stayed.  The surprise were the young actors who played the Central Park Five as well as the actual Wrongly Accused Central Park five themselves.

It pisses me off that they only got 41 million.  They should have gotten more, and half of it should have come from the NYPD and the other half from Trump.  

What's awful about this is, no one would have given a rat's ass about this case had the victim not been an investment banker.  I remember when this story broke and it was like the fourth story from the top that day.  The next day, when they found out who she was, the story was big news.  Had it been me, no one would have given a fuck.

And here is something else that shows the disconnect:  The Daily News had a headline which read:  Wilding.  That the kids called it "Wilding" that they were singing a rap song called "Wilding."  So my mother asked me if I knew that song and I said, "Huh?  There's no song called Wilding.  They were probably singing Tone Loc's "Wild Thing." 

Disconnect.  

Edited June 2, 2019 by Neurochick

[Dr.OO7]

When this horrible incident occurred, I had just started sex education and this case is how I learned what "rape" was. Not until 2003, when she finally came forward, did I learn the "Central Park Jogger's name.

This was such a horrific miscarriage of justice all around--aside from these poor kids being railroaded for something they didn't do, by the time the real assailant confessed, the statute of limitations had expired, which means Tricia Meili never got justice either.

[MrsR]

I lived in a 6th-floor walkup on 73rd Street between York and the East Highway/River when this happened. I was a 29-year-old theater professional. I worked nights mostly and didn't have a tv. I never saw a news report and got most of my info from the papers and conversations with co-workers and friends. I never saw Trump's stunt.

We had a deathwatch going on the victim. "Has she died yet?" "Oh God if she dies they will execute those guys." I can't remember anyone having sympathy or concern for the kids. It really seemed a foregone conclusion that they were going up river for this.

We had heard about the crazy number of victims that night and wondered if we knew any of the male victims because they might have been one of our gay friends who had gone into the park for a hookup. 

Which brings me to my most vivid recollections. We did PLENTY oF VICTIM BLAMING. "Who is stupid enough to go into the park at night?" "Jogging/biking in the park? What a bunch of idiots." "Any kid in the park at night was up to no good, right." "Jesus, what part of Central Park at night sounds like a good idea?"

I remember the verdict and everyone just shrugging.

I tell ya New Yorkers were a very tough crowd. "Hey when are they going to try that preppie guy who killed that girl in the park."

NEXT.

[Whimsy]

I knew about the Central Park Five. Just watched the documentary on Netflix (which I think helped me a lot, especially with the discrepancies in the boys’ stories- to see the actual tapes and how much the story changed...) so I already was going into this with a ton of sympathy and anger for the injustice of these boys. But to see dramatization of prison life, especially for Corey, was truly heartbreaking. I don’t even know how he survived. 

I also found it interesting that most of them moved away from NY,  but even more interesting is that three of them moved to Georgia. 

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I also found it interesting that most of them moved away from NY,  but even more interesting is that three of them moved to Georgia. 

I don't blame them for wanting out of New York after that.  I'm amazed that Cory was the only one that stayed considering his ordeal, but hey, good to know he's trying to pay it forward to other people that might be going through the same thing.

[Whimsy]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I don't blame them for wanting out of New York after that.  I'm amazed that Cory was the only one that stayed considering his ordeal, but hey, good to know he's trying to pay it forward to other people that might be going through the same thing.

I don't blame them either!  I just found it almost sweet in a way that they stayed relatively close, for the most part.  Since they didn't really know each other before all of this and they weren't incarcerated together, you wouldn't necessarily expect them to be so connected. 

[AnnMarie17]

19 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I saw the first two parts of this movie at a premiere at the Apollo theater about two weeks ago.  Ava DuVernay was there, as were the adult cast (minus Felicity Huffman) Before they aired it, Ava said if we stayed we'd have a surprise; so I stayed.  The surprise were the young actors who played the Central Park Five as well as the actual Wrongly Accused Central Park five themselves.

Wow, what an experience you had.  How humbling to be in the presence of those men.  And Ava; my god, what talent.

We watched all four parts yesterday and I struggle to find words to explain how I feel.  The fourth part, especially, moved me to sobs.  Watching Korey's story play out...I just don't have the words for the agony and defeat I felt. 

At the beginning, watching the interrogations, I said to my husband that if I didn't know how this story ended, I'd be hard pressed to keep watching.  It was wrenching; absolutely heartbreaking.  From start to finish, Ava had me in her grip with the powerful way she told this devastating story.  It's a film everyone, and I mean *everyone*, should see.

And, IMO, 41 million is sinful.  While I confess that I can't give you a number that would ever satisfy me, we could start by selling Trump Tower and giving those five men all the proceeds...then we'll talk about continuing proceeds from whatever books Fairstein ever publishes.

[AgentRXS]

Most "moving" and "gripping" shows, don't "move" or "grip" me, but this one did. I was helplessly infuriated throughout all 4 parts. Why these men settled for the paltry 41 million (with the bulk of it going to Korey) is beyond me. My heart broke for these young men and their families.

Linda Fairstein deserves to rot in hell. The lives she ruined, the true justice she denied the victim due to her racist agenda.....there are no words for that kind of evil. 

Korey's story broke my heart the most because his life was ruined just because he was trying to be a good friend. Yusef's mom was garbage for not acknowledging that.

[outofbounds]

I haven’t watched the whole thing yet...however...that scene of the kid crying, screaming and begging his sister to sign the paper so he could go home will forever be the hardest thing I have ever watched in my life. I don’t know how the kid acted that out...I hope his mother was on set to comfort him afterwards because oh my god.

oh.my.god

And I feel bad for Antron McCray knowing he still hasn’t reconciled with his father after he bullied him into confessing. 

Linda Fairstein and every cop involved in interrogating these boys should be in jail. When Yusef’s mother threatened The NY Times I cheered out loud. What kind of arrogant bitch asks a mother for a birth certificate when she says how old he is? I actually yelled “fuck You” at my TV when she asked that.

I hope every book seller stops selling her books tho it won’t matter. 

I am tired of seeing all these law enforcement officials getting off scott free for doing this shit though. It’s time they start having to answer for their crimes in the same way they made those who didn’t do anything answer. 

[AgentRXS]

I'm wondering if Antron's dad died in real life like he did in the the show? I couldn't find anything online. 

[Neurochick]

I have a question.  Though we only saw the first two episodes at the screening, I believe we were shown the very end when they showed what happened to each of the five.  I think someone was singing the song "Moon River" at the end, but I'm not sure.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Neurochick

[meatball77]

Quote

Linda Fairstein deserves to rot in hell. The lives she ruined, the true justice she denied the victim due to her racist agenda.....there are no words for that kind of evil. 

 

Not only that, but other women were raped and murdered because they didn't bother to find the real rapist (now perhaps they wouldn't have found him before he went on to rape again, but perhaps with some real investigative work they would have).  He was a serial rapist that hurt many women that summer.  They were so concerned with solving the crime quickly that they didn't bother to even look at what actually happened.

[AnnMarie17]

14 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I have a question.  Though we only saw the first two episodes at the screening, I believe we were shown the very end when they showed what happened to each of the five.  I think someone was singing the song "Moon River" at the end, but I'm not sure.

When Korey arrives to prison, at lights out on his first night, a fellow prisoner starts singing "Moon River" at the top of his lungs (rather beautifully, honestly) and the prison erupts with the noise of everyone screaming and cursing for him to stop. The noise and perceived anger terrify Korey who hides in the corner of his cell and covers his ears. 

Then, in the cafeteria on what I assume was Korey's first full day in prison, the man starts up singing that song again and the cafeteria devolves into fighting and chaos; Kory is once again terrified.  

For me, hearing that song again at the end returned me to what was one of the most difficult parts of the entire series...it was kind of a moment of "yeah, they were paid money and moved on with their lives, but the terrible injustice they suffered (and "suffer" is the right word here) remains". 

[AgentRXS]

12 hours ago, meatball77 said:

Not only that, but other women were raped and murdered because they didn't bother to find the real rapist (now perhaps they wouldn't have found him before he went on to rape again, but perhaps with some real investigative work they would have).  He was a serial rapist that hurt many women that summer.  They were so concerned with solving the crime quickly that they didn't bother to even look at what actually happened.

Yeah, that started bothering me a lot after the series. Especially when he admitted to killing and raping a woman with her 2 small kids present in the next room.

It is all just so bothersome. The lives stripped away from these boys, the victims that suffered and died at the hands of the real rapist, even the victim of this case. If they had went after the real rapist and convicted him, she would have gotten her justice and this case would have been behind her 30 years ago. Now she has to be reminded of this incident every time their story is in the news AND her rapist was never charged with a crime due to the statue of limitations. She never even named these guys as suspects and yet her name is forever linked with theirs because of the criminal injustice system of NY.

I can't imagine how she and they must feel all these years to know that the prosecutor responsible for this went on to become a successful author, and the man that took a public ad calling for innocent boys deaths is now the president. It is all so sickening.

[sereion]

On 6/2/2019 at 1:23 AM, raezen said:

I was genuinely shocked to realize she was the author Linda Fairstein who writes the Alexandra Cooper books. I never thought I'd endorse a book burning but her books can follow her to hell.

She is facing a HUGE backlash since the docuseries aired; there is an increasing call to boycott her books, and for major booksellers and her publisher to cancel her; plus, a non-profit organization she was involved with kicked her out--not to mention her deleting her social media accounts due Twitter severely dragging her. Even Glamour, who honored her 25 years ago, had to release a statement after they got called out.

Her day of reckoning is 30 years overdue, but is right on time. Thank you, Ava for bringing truth to power. Let's hope Elizabeth Lederer and that orange dumpster fire get theirs, and too.

Edited June 6, 2019 by sereion

[ombelico]

31 minutes ago, sereion said:

Her day of reckoning is 30 years overdue, but is right on time. Thank you, Ava for giving truth to power. Let's hope Elizabeth Lederer get hers, too.

Linda Fairstein resigned from Vassar Board of Trustees

[AgentRXS]

3 hours ago, sereion said:

She is facing a HUGE backlash since the docuseries aired; there is an increasing call to boycott her books, and for major booksellers and her publisher to cancel her; plus, a non-profit organization she was involved with kicked her out--not to mention her deleting her social media accounts due Twitter severely dragging her. Even Glamour, who honored her 25 years ago, had to release a statement after they got called out.

Her day of reckoning is 30 years overdue, but is right on time. Thank you, Ava for bringing truth to power. Let's hope Elizabeth Lederer get hers, too.

This is great, but I am really looking forward to the 3rd individual's day of reckoning as well. Everyone who called for the death of those 5 innocent boys needs to be hold accountable.

[sereion]

1 hour ago, AgentRXS said:

This is great, but I am really looking forward to the 3rd individual's day of reckoning as well. Everyone who called for the death of those 5 innocent boys needs to be hold accountable.

Oh, how.could I forget that one? I am waiting for that day, too. I hope Karma ruins him to the point from which he never recovers. 

[Dr.OO7]

On 6/3/2019 at 11:36 PM, meatball77 said:

Not only that, but other women were raped and murdered because they didn't bother to find the real rapist (now

This wrenching article describes his crimes, several of which indeed took place after the attack on Meili--and one of which took place TWO DAYS BEFORE.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thecut.com/amp/2019/06/the-attackers-other-victims-in-the-central-park-five-case.html

One of the cops who finally interviewed the bastard was one of those who interrogated the Five and the similarities or the possibility of having the right guy never occurred to him.

[Drumpf1737]

What always bothered me about their confessions when they played them on the news everynight was that none of the boys could really describe the sex act. The Village Voice was the only paper that was skeptical about the boys guilt. They did wonderful investigative reporting on the case back then. Yusef's sister routinely attended Linda Fairstein's book signings around the city--that woman deserves a medal for the way she advocated for her brother. 

Ava did a wonderful job. The cinematography was amazing.

[meatball77]

On 6/5/2019 at 3:06 AM, Camille said:

This wrenching article describes his crimes, several of which indeed took place after the attack on Meili--and one of which took place TWO DAYS BEFORE.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thecut.com/amp/2019/06/the-attackers-other-victims-in-the-central-park-five-case.html

One of the cops who finally interviewed the bastard was one of those who interrogated the Five and the similarities or the possibility of having the right guy never occurred to him.

And the argument that he was just another of the attackers doesn't make sense because the guy was a serial rapist.  He wasn't going to suddenly take part in an attack with a bunch of kids. . . 

[Dr.OO7]

11 minutes ago, meatball77 said:

And the argument that he was just another of the attackers doesn't make sense because the guy was a serial rapist.  He wasn't going to suddenly take part in an attack with a bunch of kids. . . 

It infuriates me how none of the cops or prosecutors involved in this tragedy will admit to being wrong.

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, Camille said:

It infuriates me how none of the cops or prosecutors involved in this tragedy will admit to being wrong.

I believe that probably most of the people involved with this tragedy know damn well they fucked up.  Some of them might have even confessed to a priest or a rabbi.  But they would never publicly admit it.  Because to do so would be to admit that they were under pressure to find somebody, anybody guilty of this crime, whether they were the right person or not.  

I believe if the victim, Tricia, had been a waitress or a cashier, a regular blue collar person, there would not have been this RUSH to find the person who did this.  Tricia was an investment banker; she was well off, she had a professional job.  I believe he police, the DA's office were under tremendous pressure.  People at that time were scared and angry, there were stories of people being jumped in Manhattan.  I think that's why the jury found them guilty.  Not because of the evidence, but because shit was going on in the city then.  

At the time, I didn't think these kids were guilty because there was no evidence that they did anything, I mean zero.  But the problem was, people were afraid and the jury voted with their fear,  I believe.

One small issue I had with this movie was that it felt different from Ken Burns' documentary "The Central Park Five."  That was because Burns used actual footage from 1989 and you saw what NYC looked like then.  When They See Us was harder to film because many of the places (like the Arthur A. Schomburg Plaza, now called The Heritage, and the area around it) look totally different.   

And that's why I think Ava DuVernay is a wonderful artist, a wonderful director.  The focus was on the performances, the actors, the characters.  She couldn't really focus on the city because it no longer looks the way it did in 1989.  Was there a skyline shot were you saw the Twin Towers?  (those shots are always so jarring to me).

I did hear an interview with her and I think she mentioned there were counselors on the set, especially for the younger actors.  I think she mentioned that some of the actors were emotionally drained during the filming of Selma.

[sereion]

Linda Fairstein dropped by her publisher

Edited June 8, 2019 by sereion

[Neurochick]

On 6/7/2019 at 10:40 PM, sereion said:

Linda Fairstein dropped by her publisher

It couldn't have happened to a nicer person.

I believe she sold her soul.  The wealthy folk in NYC wanted someone to pay for what happened to Tricia Meili and she handed five innocent children to them on a silver platter; and because of that she's been living the high life.  It would serve her right that in her old age, her world comes crashing down.

And then there's this.

The end of this film still gave me chills.

Though I only saw the first two parts at the screening, they showed that ending and it gave me chills.  I need Netflix now.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Neurochick

[Picture It. Sicily]

Bitch can't stop herself. WSJ published an Op-ed by Fairstein titled 

"Netflix's False Story of The Central Park Five; Ava DuVernay’s miniseries wrongly portrays them as totally innocent—and defames me in the process."

It's unconscionable of the wall street journal to give Fairstein a platform for her self-serving BS.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Picture It. Sicily
Took out the link. Why give this POS more clicks?

[Neurochick]

Now she wants to cast herself as a victim.

She's just upset because her "career" is in the toilet.  I hope you're ready when Satan comes to collect your soul, honey.

[tennisgurl]

The terrible miscarriage of justice and the ruination of the lives of innocent kids was disgusting enough, let alone it meaning that the real rapist was allowed to commit more crimes and his victim couldn’t get justice, but it just makes me want to pull my hair out that so many of the people responsible for this just wont admit, even know, that they messed up. It’s all victim blaming and ass covering and endless bullshit because none of them want to take responsibility for their own terrible actions. What a batch of scrum bags.

[Slovenly Muse]

There is no sum of money that could be equivalent to the 6-14 years of hell those boys endured, the years stolen from them. What strikes me the most about this story is its aftermath: More than one of the 5 used the money they were awarded to engage in advocacy and start foundations to help those who are in the same position they were. Meanwhile, the cops who were actually in the wrong have learned nothing, and Fairstein is WHINING like a BABY online about losing her publisher. (Truly, no one has ever endured more hardship than her.)

It is such a mark of character that the ones most wronged are doing the hardest work to set things right. The only ones who ever learn anything from ordeals like this are the ones who never needed to.

In a roundabout way, and stay with me here, this reminds me a bit of the anti-abolitionist argument that if the slaves were freed, they would immediately rise up and take brutal revenge on white people, so therefore slavery HAD to continue for the safety of the whites. That didn't happen - freed slaves mostly just wanted to build a life for themselves and find a way to be happy. But reasoning like this continues: "We can't release incarcerated people, even those convicted for low-level drug charges, because even if they weren't bad people when they went in, they sure will be after those years spent in prison, and we can't just let violent thugs loose on the streets". (Or how about, "We can't just 'believe women,' because then they could say anything and MEN will be in danger!") This sort of attitude and reasoning is never borne out by history, and says far more about the oppressors than the oppressed. They fear getting attacked because it's what THEY would do if the situation were reversed. Hell, it's what they already DID do. I see that pattern on full display here. Once again, the ones most victimized are showing the greatest strength of character, while those who were the most guilty are crying crocodile tears and slinging mud at their victims in an infantile attempt to protect their own hides. Yet SOMEHOW they still have all the power, and the only thing they're in real danger of losing is a job they were always unqualified for, and a publisher. Fuck this system all the way to hell.

[sereion]

18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Now she wants to cast herself as a victim.

She's just upset because her "career" is in the toilet.  I hope you're ready when Satan comes to collect your soul, honey.

...and I love how Ava is unbothered by her pity party and making no apologies; she said what she said, Linda. Own your ish.

Edited June 12, 2019 by sereion

[ZaldamoWilder]

They way all of them were treated should never be set aside.   I'm getting emotional at work just thinking about the courage and resilience that Korey had, each and every time he was faced with the temptation of an admission before the parole board.  Deep, deep down in a place I can't imagine, he remembered that when these people tell me "if you just say you're sorry you did it, you can go home" is a muthafuccin lie and he wouldn't do it.  He never did.  My Lord. 

On 6/7/2019 at 4:19 PM, Camille said:

It infuriates me how none of the cops or prosecutors involved in this tragedy will admit to being wrong.

All we are is our reputations.  All their cases have to be reopened and every professional judgment they've ever made has to be reexamined because they allowed bias to decimate innocent children.  They know what they did.  Admitting it to us means that have to tell the whole world they knew what they did at the time.  It's one thing to know you ain't shit, it's a complete 'nother to say it out loud.    

On 6/2/2019 at 11:49 AM, marymon said:

So many scary and awful things here. But it seems they could have literally pick any boy of color near the park that night and railroaded them the same way.    They just happen to pick these particular 5 boys.

Girl.   The most terrifying part of this (for me) is that it's still true.   I was 21 in 1989, my only child wouldn't be born for 10 more years.  The idea that I have to have this discussion with her and she has it with her peers is insane.   I haven't asked that she watch this series.  But I knew the children were talking about it when I saw a poll on her IG page a few days ago - one of the questions was:   the police have the right to come up to you, ask you for i.d. (or anything else) if they suspect you've committed a crime, true or false?  41% of her responding friends got the answer wrong.  They said well what about probable cause?  At the end of her quiz, I said this is what I want you to say in your answer key.  Probable cause must based on evidence, not suspicion.  Being Mirandized is not the same as being charged.  A traffic violation is a crime, place each of your palms on each of your thighs, don't argue, take the ticket and stfu.   The truth is 41% of adults don't know that the question to ask if you're stopped by police is: am I being detained?  That's either yes or no.  If it's a yes, ask what you're being charged with, ask to speak with your attorney (the constitution doesn't recognize texting lol) and don't say shit else until your lawyer or parents get there.  Not even if you have to go to the bathroom.   If the answer's no, tell the officer you hope they enjoy the rest of their day and go. about. your. business.   That's the basic ass fact I need for all brown children to be taught.  Either I am in this moment being charged (not accused, charged) with a crime or I am free to go.  Now the little asterisk of oh shit am I in trouble? is you can be held in police custody for a maximum of 48 hours under suspicion of having committed a crime.  You still get a phone call and you still ain't gotta say shit. 

On 6/2/2019 at 3:23 PM, Neurochick said:

I agree.  

I saw the first two parts of this movie at a premiere at the Apollo theater about two weeks ago.  Ava DuVernay was there, as were the adult cast (minus Felicity Huffman) Before they aired it, Ava said if we stayed we'd have a surprise; so I stayed.  The surprise were the young actors who played the Central Park Five as well as the actual Wrongly Accused Central Park five themselves.

It pisses me off that they only got 41 million.  They should have gotten more, and half of it should have come from the NYPD and the other half from Trump.  

What's awful about this is, no one would have given a rat's ass about this case had the victim not been an investment banker.  I remember when this story broke and it was like the fourth story from the top that day.  The next day, when they found out who she was, the story was big news.  Had it been me, no one would have given a fuck.

And here is something else that shows the disconnect:  The Daily News had a headline which read:  Wilding.  That the kids called it "Wilding" that they were singing a rap song called "Wilding."  So my mother asked me if I knew that song and I said, "Huh?  There's no song called Wilding.  They were probably singing Tone Loc's "Wild Thing." 

Disconnect.  

There wasn't even a word called wilding.   They were saying "wilin".  Wilin out was slang at the time (it may still be if you're an old head) for cuttin(g) up, actin(g) a fool, bugging out.  In other words, being teens.   I loved the scene where Huffman is demanding that somebody tell her what that means and none of the boys say a word.  

On 6/3/2019 at 11:34 AM, AnnMarie17 said:

Wow, what an experience you had.  How humbling to be in the presence of those men.  And Ava; my god, what talent.

We watched all four parts yesterday and I struggle to find words to explain how I feel.  The fourth part, especially, moved me to sobs.  Watching Korey's story play out...I just don't have the words for the agony and defeat I felt. 

At the beginning, watching the interrogations, I said to my husband that if I didn't know how this story ended, I'd be hard pressed to keep watching.  It was wrenching; absolutely heartbreaking.  From start to finish, Ava had me in her grip with the powerful way she told this devastating story.  It's a film everyone, and I mean *everyone*, should see.

And, IMO, 41 million is sinful.  While I confess that I can't give you a number that would ever satisfy me, we could start by selling Trump Tower and giving those five men all the proceeds...then we'll talk about continuing proceeds from whatever books Fairstein ever publishes.

Right here with you.   Please trust and believe if the City of New York gives up $41M, they owe you a number exponentially, impossibly, greater than that.   These children were cheated out of so much more than money, but I need for whomever advised them to settle to come to mass and confession too.   I could so easily see this being an emotional decision....you've already been through so much, let's just end this here, do you really want to go into another courtroom in your lifetime?  This is a guaranteed sum, ya'll know firsthand how the justice system works, we'll roll the dice if you want to but, if this goes to trial....  

I HATE this shit for them.  Every part of it.  

Speaking of the justice system.   Oprah ran an interview she did with the - their headline name from now on - Exonerated Five - in which Ava is describing the smoke that Fairstein has encountered as a result of the series airing.  She says it's really not about her.  She's a part of a system that was meant to be this way.   It's not broken, it was built to be this way, it was built to oppress, it was built to control and built to shape our culture in a specific way.  That's only a snippet of what she has to say about the system but I loved it.   It's not broken, it works exactly as the signers of the constitution intended.      

I'm not used to hearing them speak so I wasn't really ready.   Antron McCray is a man of few words, but those few?  My God. 

[Neurochick]

15 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

There wasn't even a word called wilding.   They were saying "wilin".  Wilin out was slang at the time (it may still be if you're an old head) for cuttin(g) up, actin(g) a fool, bugging out.  In other words, being teens.   I loved the scene where Huffman is demanding that somebody tell her what that means and none of the boys say a word.  

I don't believe they were even saying "wilin."  They were singing a rap song.  My mother asked me if I'd ever heard a song called "Wilding."  I said, "No, that's Wild Thing," the Tone Loc song.

[ZaldamoWilder]

5 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't believe they were even saying "wilin."  They were singing a rap song.  My mother asked me if I'd ever heard a song called "Wilding."  I said, "No, that's Wild Thing," the Tone Loc song.

I mean anything's possible, but they were asked what they were doing.  Wild Thing doesn't fit because it isn't a verb.    

[sereion]

Elizabeth Lederer resigns.

[Neurochick]

23 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

I mean anything's possible, but they were asked what they were doing.  Wild Thing doesn't fit because it isn't a verb.    

The story I heard was they were singing the song and the cops asked what they were singing, they said "Wild Thing," the cops thought the song was "Wild'in."

[outofbounds]

What bugs me the most about Fairstein’s defense of herself is her absolute INSISTENCE that people just don’t know the whole story. We don’t know what the evidence was or what the boys said because we’re only being shown bits and pieces. This is the same shit Sea World pulls whenever someone says they are an evil organization. We’re all just making judgments without being fully educated on a subject. Well tell me how effing educated do I need to be to see that the POOL you have a whale in is TOO SMALL?

So Linda tells us that this mind blowing evidence that proves her innocence is that one of the boys admitted to having a steel pipe on him that night. Ok. Sure. Was this pipe found? Was it ever proven he used it on anything? If it was found did it have DNA on it? Was it ever proven that a pipe is what was used to hit Meili?

No?

Then WHAT is your point, lady?

Because her point is simple. And her “defense” wreaks of it. She didn’t care that they didn’t commit THIS crime. As far as she was concerned they had done something that night and that’s all she needed. And if they hadn’t done something that night? They would have eventually. Which is a huge gigantic part of the problem with why white people do not understand why this case in particular was so goddamn infuriating.