Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

My issue with the scene was always more that it is a truly poor replacement for having actual female representation. It is one of the various reasons I still think that Carol should have gone to Voromir...because this way they could have portrayed a friendship between her and Natasha. But I actually do think that it needs to be there to "normalize" the notion of having only female heroes on screen. 

Yes, exactly. As much as I love the scene, it feels like pandering in light of Natasha being fridged, Okoye and Carol being sidelined out of the time heist, Sharon being written out completely because of the stupid kiss backlash, Peggy being reduced to a trophy, and all the other ways Phase 4 has screwed over certain female characters since then.

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, Dani said:

feel that most of the reasons why it feels contrived or jarring are exactly why it needed to be in the movie. It was a very deliberate scene and that shows but it was deliberate because things aren’t equal. The same scene with only male heroes wouldn’t cause anyone to blink because it happens all the time. 

The reason it bugs me is that it kind of doesn't work in the context of the final battle. Like Captain Marvel is so powerful, does anyone actually think that Mantis or The Wasp were a big help in providing her back up?

[Raja]

14 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The reason it bugs me is that it kind of doesn't work in the context of the final battle. Like Captain Marvel is so powerful, does anyone actually think that Mantis or The Wasp were a big help in providing her back up?

I agree before Endgame, when Captain Marvel was not part of the team when asked who was the most powerful Avenger my answer was Thor and the rest would merely serve as his cavalry screen. The eyes and ears for him as he was tasked to provide the big stick.

The Endgame scene played as if Wasp was going to make a hole for Captain Marvel to drive through. It was just executed poorly due to time constraints

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The reason it bugs me is that it kind of doesn't work in the context of the final battle. Like Captain Marvel is so powerful, does anyone actually think that Mantis or The Wasp were a big help in providing her back up?

I disagree within the context of the final battle because the point of the other women was helping to clear the way. The Wasp and Mantis can help Captain Marvel by giving her fewer enemies to get through herself. If the movies would actually use The Wasp and Mantis to their full abilities they could have been among the most helpful. Mantis can put Thanos to sleep and Wasp as the handy little disks that make things bigger and smaller.

I’m not saying there isn’t legitimate criticism for the scene but we see ridiculous scenes like that with the male heroes all the time. It never gets the same reaction because it is normalized. 

[Crs97]

Even if I am the most powerful person in the universe, I hope I wouldn’t complain that I could have done it myself if others wanted to help me.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Even if I am the most powerful person in the universe, I hope I wouldn’t complain that I could have done it myself if others wanted to help me.

I wouldn't expect her to complain, but just before that scene she flew through ba giant space ship that was shooting at her without even flinching. I am not sure the one person that Mantis might have been able to put to sleep in the time it would have taken CM to fly from Peter Parker to the van would have made a difference. It would have been if like at the start of the Cap/Thor/Iron Man fight if Happy Hogan ran out and said "I'm here to help" and go some big music cue and cool camera shot.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I wouldn't expect her to complain, but just before that scene she flew through ba giant space ship that was shooting at her without even flinching. I am not sure the one person that Mantis might have been able to put to sleep in the time it would have taken CM to fly from Peter Parker to the van would have made a difference. It would have been if like at the start of the Cap/Thor/Iron Man fight if Happy Hogan ran out and said "I'm here to help" and go some big music cue and cool camera shot.

If she had but Thanos to sleep it would have made a huge difference. Mantis isn’t remotely comparable to Happy Hogan. If she was used correctly at any point in the battle she could have helped end the entire thing. The same is true for Wasp. The full extent of what they would do is never used because it didn’t fit the ending of Tony making the ultimate sacrifice. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Guest

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Dani said:

If she had but Thanos to sleep it would have made a huge difference. Mantis isn’t remotely comparable to Happy Hogan. If she was used correctly at any point in the battle she could have helped end the entire thing. The same is true for Wasp. The full extent of what they would do is never used because it didn’t fit the ending of Tony making the ultimate sacrifice. 

The difference in power/abilities between Cap and Happy Hogan (especially in that final battle) is way closer than the difference between Carol and Mantis, which is why it was silly to act like she could be some kind of serious back up the way that scene was presented. Actually I am reminded of Iron Man 2 and how Happy backing up Black Widow was basically a gag.

Sure having her use her powers effectively in battle would have made more sense, but battles at the end of Marvel movies are almost always fist fights and she was far from being the star of that movie so I wouldn't really expect that to happen.

[Danny Franks]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:53 PM, Bruinsfan said:

Should have done more screen tests. They managed to shoot the scene of Black Widow, Okoye, and Wanda fighting together against Thanos' armies in Infinity War without making it feel contrived or jarring, so it was theoretically possible for Endgame as well.

Except for Scarlett's ADR line "she's not alone," which sounded like she read it while lying on a couch in her pyjamas, sipping a glass of wine.

I honestly don't care how jarring or clunky that scene might be in Endgame (and it is pretty clunky). It pissed off the right people and that makes me laugh every time.

[swanpride]

I distinctively remember some scoffing about the scene in Infinity War, too....also, I really don't think that "Carol doesn't need them" is a good argument considering that she actually fails to bring the gauntlet into the tunnel. Sure, there is a little bit convenient downgrading going on, but that is normal for all Superheroes.

[tv echo]

Marvel Revealed 11 Secrets From Making Avengers: Endgame
BY CHARLES CAMERON    JANUARY 30, 2022
https://screenrant.com/avengers-endgame-production-secrets-reveals-behind-scenes/ 

Quote

Marvel's first official MCU companion book has revealed 11 behind-the-scenes secrets from making Avengers: Endgame. First released on October 19, 2021, The Story of Marvel Studios: The Making of the Marvel Cinematic Universe is the first-ever authorized look at making Marvel’s Infinity Saga, beginning with 2008’s Iron Man and ending with 2019's Spider-Man: Far From Home. In particular, The Story of Marvel Studios contains swathes of fascinating, behind-the-curtain information on the record-breaking Avengers: Endgame that is now immortalized as the MCU Phase 3's crown jewel to this day.
*  *  *
... Throughout the film, Morgan tells her father, "I love you 3000," which is a line close to Robert Downey Jr's heart as something his daughter, Avri Roel Downey, said to him when she was a young child. This adorable line made it into Endgame after Downey Jr. shared this story with the Russo brothers, who chose to incorporate it into the film.
*  *  *
... Yet the Endgame scene originally filmed, Downey Jr.'s Iron Man stays silent as he snaps his fingers, saving the world and sacrificing his life one last time. However, in post-production, the Russo brothers both agreed that Tony Stark needed to have one final line, but the pair were unable to envision a final tagline for him that did not translate as corny in the emotional context of the scene.

In the Russo brother's words, Tony Stark is a man who "had lived and died by quips," so the pair were elated when their editor Jeff Ford reportedly said during a meeting, "Why don’t we just go full circle with it and say I am Iron Man." Having found their perfect ending line, the Russo brothers then brought the edited idea to Downey Jr, who, anecdotally, was convinced by his long-time friend and Endgame producer Joel Silver to reshoot the scene with the iconic "I am Iron Man" line included. This new scene was shot in January 2019, mere months before the film’s release that made it the last scene ever filmed for Avengers: Endgame. In a final, poignant, and serendipitous twist, the scene had to be filmed at Raleigh Studios due to a lack of soundstage availability, which is adjacent to the stage where Downey Jr. first auditioned to play Iron Man a decade prior.
*  *  *
... An entire sequence was shot featuring 13 Reasons Why's Katherine Langford as Tony’s daughter from the future that was eventually discarded due to its jarring nature. At its core, the idea was to have Tony enter the same metaphysical waystation that Thanos experienced when performing his own snap, whereby Tony would converse with an adult version of his daughter to give his character closure and peace as his soul moves on. Yet ultimately, the Russo brothers felt introducing a new character so suddenly would detract from the impact and nobility of Tony's death, as well as confuse audiences, meaning Langford's Endgame turn was instead relegated to a bonus deleted scene that can be accessed via Disney+ to date.

Endgame's Name Changed Twice During Pre-Production
Thanos' Opening Endgame Scene
Tony Stark's Snack Scenes
"I Love You 3000"
Smart Hulk Was Originally Designed For Infinity War
Robert Downey Jr. Was The Only Cast Member Given The Full Script For Avengers: Endgame
Natalie Portman Did Not Film Any Scenes For Avengers: Endgame
The Final Battle In Avengers: Endgame
"I Am Iron Man"
Tony's Daughter
Hiding Tony's Funeral Scene

Edited January 31, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Robert Downey Jr. Reflects on Tony Stark’s Avengers: Endgame Death
By Richard Nebens    March 2, 2022
https://thedirect.com/article/robert-downey-jr-avengers-endgame-tony-stark-death 

Quote

In an appearance on the Hypocondriactor Podcast, MCU star Robert Downey Jr. reflected on his final moments as Tony Stark in 2019's Avengers: Endgame.

Downey was asked in a mini-quiz about his line that he uttered before snapping his fingers in Endgame, to which he quickly gave the correct answer of "I am Iron Man." He also admitted that he tried other ideas like "You are so f-cked" and pun-filled options such as "Oh, snap:"

“Correct answer is ‘I am Iron Man,’ but I had so many alt lines that I wanted to put forward… Oh god, let me think. They were all super smart-ass lines like I was trying to, y’know, dumb stuff like, ‘You are so f-cked’ or whatever. You know what, I’ll have to go back to my notes… I get the Infinity Stones and then have the power to snap and have whatever I wanna have happen--Oh, tha- I was gonna say ‘Oh, snap.‘”

When asked why he didn't go with those options, Downey admitted that it felt "too smart-ass" and would have diminished Tony's arc as he faced death. He gave credit to one of the movie's editors, who suggested that the team go "right back to the first film" and tie things off with a neat bow:

“I’ll tell you why, it was too smart-ass and it was the whole arc of the character and it was, I think… maybe one of our great editors’ ideas, or one of the writers to say we need to go right back to the first film and have his dying words be the words of his origin… We love a bookend.”

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Apparently, at one point, Kevin Feige pitched killing off all of the original Avengers...

[Spartan Girl]

I really, really wish they had just killed off Steve.

[cambridgeguy]

But then no one would be able to spend years ranting about how they destroyed his character...

[Spartan Girl]

56 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

But then no one would be able to spend years ranting about how they destroyed his character...

My point exactly. Would’ve spared us all the pain.

[Hiyo]

Personally, I was fine with Steve's ending in Endgame.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

My point exactly. Would’ve spared us all the pain.

It also would have avoided the endless speculation of how time travels works, if Steve is going to come back and why the hell he isn’t helping anyone out. I love the original Avengers but the specter of any who survive but whose actors are done is going to negatively effect the MCU. 

I could have been okay with Steve’s ending, even if it wouldn’t have been happy with it, if it was just better written. I find Steve’s ending to be lazy and the endings for the big characters need to be better crafted. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

23 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

My point exactly. Would’ve spared us all the pain.

"Something something, who was right and who was wrong in Civil War...."

😉

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Racj82]

On 8/5/2022 at 7:05 PM, Dani said:

It also would have avoided the endless speculation of how time travels works, if Steve is going to come back and why the hell he isn’t helping anyone out. I love the original Avengers but the specter of any who survive but whose actors are done is going to negatively effect the MCU. 

I could have been okay with Steve’s ending, even if it wouldn’t have been happy with it, if it was just better written. I find Steve’s ending to be lazy and the endings for the big characters need to be better crafted. 

A lot of the best movies end with speculation. It's not a bad thing. Not everything should be wrapped up in a pretty little bow.

I also think they left Steve's ending as vague because they didn't wanted to kill off three og avengers in the same movie. They didn't want to end three stories with sacrifices. But, they still needed Cap to not be a factor going forward. So, they gave him HIS happy ending. I'm fine with that.

I still don't feel the need to complain about the all female scene in Endgame except for the fact that I think they shouldn't have crammed every major female in there. Mantis can't really fight. Stage a few of them elsewhere. It's the improbability of all of them happening to be there that hurts it.

It's a moment that makes a lot of people happy. I'm not mad at that. I just think it could have been handled more subtly.

[Guest]

On 8/8/2022 at 6:50 AM, Racj82 said:

A lot of the best movies end with speculation. It's not a bad thing. Not everything should be wrapped up in a pretty little bow.

I absolutely agree. But I don’t think this is one of those situations. A large part of that is because Sam was setup to become Captain America at the end and leaving that thread open leaves a lot of room for certain small minded individuals to hold on to hope their Cap will come back.

Also I am unhappy with what I think was shitty writing and plotting for Steve’s ending way more than the actual ending. They could have had him end up in the exact same place and done it in a way that would have worked. I don’t need a movie to give me my preferred ending and can accept nearly anything if I feel it is well written and makes sense for the character. To me Steve’s ending was poor characterization and will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth. 

On 8/8/2022 at 6:50 AM, Racj82 said:

So, they gave him HIS happy ending.

They gave him one version of a happy ending. I think it’s great that many are happy with it. I just can’t be one of those people. 

On 8/8/2022 at 6:50 AM, Racj82 said:

I just think it could have been handled more subtly.

Personally, I’m over subtle when it comes to things like that. That all female scenes often feel contrived is because of poor representation in movies. Hollywood has normalized the abnormal. As an audience we have adjusted to the norm where women are the minority (despite being a slight majority in real life). My initial reaction was that it was pandering but I had to reevaluate because a similar scene with all men wouldn’t have caused me to blink an eye. 

On 8/8/2022 at 6:50 AM, Racj82 said:

Mantis can't really fight. Stage a few of them elsewhere.

Mantis can put people to sleep. She doesn’t need to fight to be extremely useful. I don’t think it matters how strong any of them are as fighters given how many they were fighting. 

On 8/8/2022 at 6:50 AM, Racj82 said:

It's the improbability of all of them happening to be there that hurts it.

I’ve seen this said before and I don’t really understand it. That final battle is full of improbability’s way bigger than the women converging in the same place at the same time. Like Valkyrie having a Pegasus or there being anything overhead for Peter use to swing or Sam coming out of a portal to Cap’s right or Sam contacting Steve before the first portal even opens or Steve knowing how to control the hammer perfectly. The list is so long.  

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

I absolutely agree. But I don’t think this is one of those situations. A large part of that is because Sam was setup to become Captain America at the end and leaving that thread open leaves a lot of room for certain small minded individuals to hold on to hope their Cap will come back.

Also I am unhappy with what I think was shitty writing and plotting for Steve’s ending way less than the actual ending. They could have had him end up in the exact same place and done it in a way that would have worked. I don’t need a movie to give me my preferred ending and can accept nearly anything if I feel it is well written and makes sense for the character. To me Steve’s ending was poor characterization and will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth. 

They gave him one version of a happy ending. I think it’s great that many are happy with it. I just can’t be one of those people. 

Personally, I’m over subtle when it comes to things like that. That all female scenes often feel contrived is because of poor representation in movies. Hollywood has normalized the abnormal. As an audience we have adjusted to the norm where women are the minority (despite being a slight majority in real life). My initial reaction was that it was pandering but I had to reevaluate because a similar scene with all men wouldn’t have caused me to blink an eye. 

Mantis can put people to sleep. She doesn’t need to fight to be extremely useful. I don’t think it matters how strong any of them are as fighters given how many they were fighting. 

I’ve seen this said before and I don’t really understand it. That final battle is full of improbability’s way bigger than the women converging in the same place at the same time. Like Valkyrie having a Pegasus or there being anything overhead for Peter use to swing or Sam coming out of a portal to Cap’s right or Sam contacting Steve before the first portal even opens or Steve knowing how to control the hammer perfectly. The list is so long.  

I would call it just as improbable if it was all dudes there, or all of the remaining og avengers to have jumped down.

Mantis was useless in that moment no matter what is said and she didn't do anything either. And my overall point was that every single female member wouldn't have ended up there even if it was just because of varied fighting levels.

Its not a complaint. Its an observation.

No matter how you feel about it, lack of subtlety will take certain people out of moment. Most people don't like being hit with a sledgehammer. You don't have to be an a-hole to not enjoy that.

I took it for what it was. A fun moment in a scene filled with designed fist pumping moments. Nothing wrong with it. I also don't have a problem with the notion that it could have been handled a little more deftly.

Some people also don't want to feel pandered to or like a checklist is getting marked off. People keep complaining about the roles of women in the mcu! Here ya go! Some people will feel that way.

There are reasons to love the moment and hate it. I understand both sides.

I just agree to disagree with all complaints abouts Caps ending. I was glad he finally got his dance. I was glad he created his own happiness. That's about as much thought as I put in it. It's just not that serious to me. Miles will vary.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

being anything overhead for Peter use to swing or

Not sure I understand that one. There was Thanos's huge space ship plus all the other space ships/aircraft from Wakanda and all the Ravagers. Plus all the flying people. Lots of stuff for him to swing on.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

I would call it just as improbable if it was all dudes there, or all of the remaining og avengers to have jumped down.

I didn’t say it wasn’t improbable. I just don’t think it is any more improbable than a whole lot of things that happened in the movie. Improbable gets thrown a lot more in situations like this. I have never heard anyone say it is improbable that Steve, Tony and Thor were the only Avengers who got out of the building in time to confront Thanos. We are used to accepting the improbable in movies but when the improbable thing involves women it takes us (including me) out of the moment. 

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

Mantis was useless in that moment no matter what is said and she didn't do anything either.

I completely disagree. We didn’t see her do anything but that doesn’t mean she didn’t go anything. There is another point in the final battle where there a shot of her putting someone to sleep. And if she is useless that is a problem with the movie overall and it includes a lot of the heroes.
The most improbable aspect is that only one named character died in the battle.

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

No matter how you feel about it, lack of subtlety will take certain people out of moment. Most people don't like being hit with a sledgehammer. You don't have to be an a-hole to not enjoy that.

I have sat through 40 years of being underrepresented on screen. Lots of things took me out of the moment while watching movies. Like women behaving in ways that no women ever would. Like Nat having the ridiculous hair in Iron Man 2 or changing in the backseat. Like every time a shot lingers on a woman’s ass or chest. Shifts are uncomfortable and everyone feels that discomfort. To me that discomfort isn’t a bad thing. The fact that I no longer care that some people don’t like it may make me an asshole but I’m okay with that.

That doesn’t mean I need anyone to agree with me but it does mean I will point out why I disagree. I am not trying to change anyone’s opinion or think that mine is more valid. I am coming from my life experience and so is everyone else. 

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

It's just not that serious to me.

I think this is often the key difference. It is that serious to some people. There are a lot of people who related to Cap and Bucky. 

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Not sure I understand that one. There was Thanos's huge space ship plus all the other space ships/aircraft from Wakanda and all the Ravagers. Plus all the flying people. Lots of stuff for him to swing on.

How long are his webs and how low are the ships to the ground? I find it improbable that they would be positioned so that he could always find something to use to swing. Like Steve’s shield it doesn’t obey the laws of physics. 

[Racj82]

57 minutes ago, Dani said:

I didn’t say it wasn’t improbable. I just don’t think it is any more improbable than a whole lot of things that happened in the movie. Improbable gets thrown a lot more in situations like this. I have never heard anyone say it is improbable that Steve, Tony and Thor were the only Avengers who got out of the building in time to confront Thanos. We are used to accepting the improbable in movies but when the improbable thing involves women it takes us (including me) out of the moment. 

I completely disagree. We didn’t see her do anything but that doesn’t mean she didn’t go anything. There is another point in the final battle where there a shot of her putting someone to sleep. And if she is useless that is a problem with the movie overall and it includes a lot of the heroes.
The most improbable aspect is that only one named character died in the battle.

I have sat through 40 years of being underrepresented on screen. Lots of things took me out of the moment while watching movies. Like women behaving in ways that no women ever would. Like Nat having the ridiculous hair in Iron Man 2 or changing in the backseat. Like every time a shot lingers on a women’s ass or chest. Shifts are uncomfortable and everyone feels that discomfort. To me that discomfort isn’t a bad thing. The fact that I no longer care that some people don’t like it may make me an asshole but I’m okay with that.

That doesn’t mean I need anyone to agree with me but it does mean I will point out why I disagree. I am not trying to change anyone’s opinion or think that mine is more valid. I am coming from my life experience and so is everyone else. 

I think this is often the key difference. It is that serious to some people. There are a lot of people who related to Cap and Bucky. 

How long are his webs and how low are the ships to the ground? I find it improbable that they would be positioned so that he could always find something to use to swing. Like Steve’s shield it doesn’t obey the laws of physics. 

Agree to disagree on everything then. Have a good one 👍🏾.

[AES13]

I didn't like the all-female team up either, only because it was such a token gesture, IMO. After not bothering to showcase any female heroes apart from Captain Marvel, gesturing to all the female cast members and saying "Look at all these women!" was too little, too late for me.  I wanted to feel represented; instead I felt condescended to.  The "she's not alone" scene in Infinity War came off way better to me, 

[Lantern7]

Ever year at Comic-Con, Cartoon Art Museum offers commissions. Just pick a price and an artist. Yesterday, the last one I ordered showed up . . . Korg from Judd Winick. I’m posting it here because Judd decided to use Endgame for reference. It’s been almost three years, so a quippy stone alien might not escape my memory, but the pineapple shirt will.

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Ever year at Comic-Con, Cartoon Art Museum offers commissions. Just pick a price and an artist. Yesterday, the last one I ordered showed up . . . Korg from Judd Winick. I’m posting it here because Judd decided to use Endgame for reference. It’s been almost three years, so a quippy stone alien might not escape my memory, but the pineapple shirt will.

That's really cool. Not sure if you have seen it but there is a pretty quiet original comic art thread. My original Black Panther page is easily one of my top 5 prized possessions.