Season Two: Marvelous Full-Season Discussion

[debraran]

I'm sure it was like that in some areas or income ranges. My mom though in the 50's was the "Play outside type" but always knew where we were and probably was a low level helicopter mom to some degree. lol  My aunts were like that too, you played all day or in evening, but homework, holiday's, dinner, were together and she would never forget us. : )

I feel, they make Midge very aloof and I suppose that makes it easier with leaving children she never sees or is interested in when they are. It fits the "rich" stereotype of having help care for children and not having the maternal instinct many do. I think her honesty is refreshing but the children shouldn't take the hit.

I remember a rich scientist saying to me once, waiting for our children's dance recital "My youngest daughter was sick and they wanted me to go home, why is it when a child is sick and they spend 95% with aur pair, they still want their mother when they are sick?" I couldn't answer but I'm glad she went, probably explained the germs to her, lol.

I hope they show more with grandparents, I'd like to see some funny moments with Abe and Ethan.

Edited December 28, 2018 by debraran

[ShadowFacts]

10 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

I think the depiction of how the children are treated is in line the the times.  "Children should be seen and not heard....". Parents didn't play with their children or even talk to their children.  Of course looking at it through our modern day eyes, most are apallled.  But, I'm the age that Midge's children would be now.  Seems right on target to me.  I'm not saying it was right, but it was just how it was.

I think there's a class element.  I'm willing to guess that Midge's friend Imogene (?) would be a much more present and hands-on parent.  I'm a child of the 60s and we had no household help and were not left to our own devices.  Less helicoptering for sure, but not zero parental involvement, either. 

[AuntieMame]

Booklady1017 

I don’t think Benjamin could ultimately accept Midge’s career despite his wish for someone weird. The role of wife still has expectations attached to it that we all still struggle with even today. And we know that trying to balance career and marriage when the career is the female career and/or the wife is more talented or makes more money causes serious issues for everyone involved. 

On 12/27/2018 at 8:11 PM, shapeshifter said:

Yes, my sister often tells of taking me by the hand in the 1950s to look for our mother at the neighbor's when she was just 4 years old and I was 2. She is appalled by it, but I don't think she thinks our situation was unique.  

Even during the sixties, seventies and into the eighties the expectations of how involved parents were in the everyday of their children were very different. On the bright side of this, children did have more freedom as mothers sent them outside to play. “Be home in September.” 

We seem to swing from pole to pole between neglect and helicoptering and child worship. 

Abe is insane to quit that job. His boss is offering an extended, paid sabbatical. Abe could extend that even further by guest professoring at one of the Paris universities which Columbia could facilitate and he could keep the apartment.

Does anyone else even understand what exactly it is that Abe is gearing up to fight? Because I sure don’t. 

[shapeshifter]

26 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Does anyone else even understand what exactly it is that Abe is gearing up to fight? Because I sure don’t. 

Abe's identity was secure in success and respect. Now he is irrelevant and disrespected. 
He feels he has nothing to lose.
I often recall learning in Sociology 101 in the 1990s that the highest suicide rates were among older white men for these reasons. I think now the rates among older white women have risen for the same reasons.

[AuntieMame]

9 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Abe's identity was secure in success and respect. Now he is irrelevant and disrespected. 
He feels he has nothing to lose.
I often recall learning in Sociology 101 in the 1990s that the highest suicide rates were among older white men for these reasons. I think now the rates among older white women have risen for the same reasons.

I understand that part of it. I read recently that suicide rates for full adults (say 30 to 50) are up across the board and I thought that the Abe plot turning on a dime was awful and odd, but what I don’t understand is why Abe seems to think he is/has some sort of threat to Bell Labs. 

I guess going from “we want you Abe” to “the janitor has more clearance and utility than you do “ is whiplash inducing and maybe I’m reacting to the bad writing. If Abe was going into the slow career decline of late middle age that should have been there from the beginning. Highly successful people often get the most power and prestige between 50 and 60 as they have experience, maturity and talent and get the highest leadership positions. This only applies to the highest levels of talent and success. But we were shown Bell Labs coming calling for Abe. He didn’t even have to apply. The abrupt turn to disdain and humiliation and now you are just dispensable, with no shown mistakes by Abe seems nonsensical. 

[debraran]

I agree, he went downhill fast on his job, bad writing to me in many ways. Sometimes it seems uneven the writing, like they want to put the bulk of it in something else and that was quickly written for a plot down the road. It makes it hard to swallow though. He gets a project but no funding...too much to accept as "real".

Off that topic, am I the only one who wonders about birth control before the pill?I know men used (bad) condoms back then and there were messy diaphragms. The number of sexual encounters you see on this show and others of that period without a thought to it, makes me wonder how it wasn't a constant fear.

[AuntieMame]

From what I understand it was a constant fear and one of the things that kept women virgins. Bad condoms, diaphragms or Dutch caps, sponges with vinegar inserted into the vagina (probably more effective than one might think), rhythm method and withdrawal were the methods available. 

Ive been told it was very difficult to even get word of mouth information because even though people had sex, it wasn’t discussed very much. 

[debraran]

5 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

From what I understand it was a constant fear and one of the things that kept women virgins. Bad condoms, diaphragms or Dutch caps, sponges with vinegar inserted into the vagina (probably more effective than one might think), rhythm method and withdrawal were the methods available. 

Ive been told it was very difficult to even get word of mouth information because even though people had sex, it wasn’t discussed very much. 

Yes, it was very hard until the 60's and even then. Some crazy and not so crazy ways to keep it from happening. I guess TV shows the nicer part, the women who have affairs, married and single and sleep with a guy without a thought. I'm sure there were many accidents and close calls.

https://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book-excerpts/health-article/a-brief-history-of-birth-control/

[AuntieMame]

Birth control is still far from perfect, though at least we aren't completely muzzled anymore in terms of talking about it. I've always felt so sorry for people in the past. Parents lost children as a matter of course, women had frequent pregnancies. Coping with the medical aspects was a combination of rudimentary and superstitious. Very different and difficult times. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

Yes, it was very hard until the 60's and even then. Some crazy and not so crazy ways to keep it from happening. I guess TV shows the nicer part, the women who have affairs, married and single and sleep with a guy without a thought. I'm sure there were many accidents and close calls.

https://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book-excerpts/health-article/a-brief-history-of-birth-control/

There were abortions, too, of course.  The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Midge's choice to be with Joel in the finale will be without consequence. 

[debraran]

35 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

There were abortions, too, of course.  The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Midge's choice to be with Joel in the finale will be without consequence. 

I thought that too, a bit cliche in shows but you never know.

I watched a movie on Netflix with Leonardo Decaprio and Kate Winslet and Kathy Bates (not Titanic) called Revolutionary Road. It was very good character study on this family/couple and life before legal abortion and good birth control. Haunted me for days.

They talked of a syringe abortion that women shared for info but not a medical procedure. (this was 1950's)

Edited December 30, 2018 by debraran

[AuntieMame]

22 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

There were abortions, too, of course.  The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Midge's choice to be with Joel in the finale will be without consequence. 

A seventy year old friend once confessed to me that she gave herself a knitting needle abortion. I was stunned that people apparently did this successfully pre Roe because I'd only heard about the failures and even those as quasi urban legends. It seems that there were ways that women self aborted that worked. I guess you would have to have a strong mind and high pain tolerance. Not to mention knowledge of the body which many young people today don't have. My friend also stressed that you had to move pretty fast...no denial and waiting and hoping it wasn't true. Because you didn't scrape with the knitting needle, it was mostly a means of opening the cervix. I asked questions. 

I know midwives aborted women in the past, I wonder if this was one method used. Toes curled in horror. Then again, the social punishment for an unplanned pregnancy is bad and I have experienced that. 

[Mystery]

On 12/6/2018 at 1:19 PM, ChlcGirl said:

I loved the season overall but I did find myself disappointed in Midge's choice at the end.  Walking away from your kids for 6 months without a second thought? Throwing over a decent man who loved and accepted her without being jealous of her talent to go to JOEL?  Not smart.

Yes. I was yelling "Benjamin loves you!" at my TV. 

 

On 12/8/2018 at 1:45 PM, pivot said:

However, The main problem with Joel is that he's the biggest bum note in the series. Plus AMP  is much like Marti Nixon in her ability to fall in love with terrible characters the audience hates and try to change our minds by shoving him down our throats and make all the other characters take a backseat to her character crush (see Christopher from Gilmore Girls and Spike from Buffy).

I feel the same way. And, as others mentioned, his perpetual whining doesn't help. 

 

On 12/12/2018 at 10:36 AM, millennium said:

Same here.  Shalhoub was good as an ensemble player (Wings) but when given too much attention he quickly wears out his welcome (I hated Monk).  It baffles me why, when the show has this fresh new talent (Rachel Brosnahan), they're squandering so much potential on Shalhoub.   

I liked him last season but I thought there was too much craziness with him this season. 

 

On 12/19/2018 at 2:21 PM, qtpye said:

 

If Abe loses their income stream Rose will not be able to afford jetting off to Paris or the maid, who seems to do the majority of the cooking, cleaning, and child care. Maybe Midge hits it big next season and supports all of them.

The ego on Abe is astounding. He literally needs a crew of sycophants begging for his time so he can happily abuse them. He feels awful because his son has the nerve  to be more important than he is. Though, this is probably not too out of the question for someone who is a mathematical genius.

One thing I wondered was why he wanted Midge to keep her comedy a secret from her mother, after everything he went through keeping the *last* secret from her. Does the man learn nothing?

 

On 12/22/2018 at 2:55 PM, PamelaMaeSnap said:

How awesome would it be if some intrepid designer created a Mrs. Maisel fashion line? I would totally buy that dress/coat as well as some of the swing coats she's worn!

As a child of the 60s with a grandmother buying all of our clothes, I owned every dress in the Buffy ("Family Affair") collection. I still have pictures of me and my sisters in the clothes she wears on the show. I'd be all over the Midge Meisel Collection. 

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Mystery said:

On 12/22/2018 at 4:55 PM, PamelaMaeSnap said:

How awesome would it be if some intrepid designer created a Mrs. Maisel fashion line? I would totally buy that dress/coat as well as some of the swing coats she's worn!

. . . I'd be all over the Midge M[a]isel Collection. 

This really should happen, although I'm old enough to be familiar with the adage that the stock market follows hemlines.

[Booklady1017]

On 12/30/2018 at 10:14 AM, AuntieMame said:

Booklady1017 

I don’t think Benjamin could ultimately accept Midge’s career despite his wish for someone weird. The role of wife still has expectations attached to it that we all still struggle with even today. And we know that trying to balance career and marriage when the career is the female career and/or the wife is more talented or makes more money causes serious issues for everyone involved. 

Even during the sixties, seventies and into the eighties the expectations of how involved parents were in the everyday of their children were very different. On the bright side of this, children did have more freedom as mothers sent them outside to play. “Be home in September.” 

We seem to swing from pole to pole between neglect and helicoptering and child worship. 

Abe is insane to quit that job. His boss is offering an extended, paid sabbatical. Abe could extend that even further by guest professoring at one of the Paris universities which Columbia could facilitate and he could keep the apartment.

Does anyone else even understand what exactly it is that Abe is gearing up to fight? Because I sure don’t. 

Yeah, that could be true. Benjamin could say he's okay with Midge's career, but he could change his mind when he experiences what that means. I would guess that even if he says he doesn't, he might not like to have his wife's company and may want children when she doesn't because of her career.

I think Abe should do the sabbatical route too in Paris and work in one of the universities. 

[Thadeeeyus]

I love the minds of the people who create this show.  They constantly amaze me.  Halfway through Season 2 and enjoying every minute.  

[grayson]

Auntie Mame  notes,

Quote

I don’t think Benjamin could ultimately accept Midge’s career despite his wish for someone weird. The role of wife still has expectations attached to it that we all still struggle with even today. And we know that trying to balance career and marriage when the career is the female career and/or the wife is more talented or makes more money causes serious issues for everyone involved. 

Wise observation. Benjamin is amused by Midge's quirkiness, but she is always "on stage" for him with incessant sarcasm and irreverence . Have we seen any conversations where she expresses vulnerability or neediness with him? Midge told her mother that she was disconcerted by Benjamin's unexpected appearance at the park while she was with Ethan, because she was "not in the right frame of mind" to deal with him. Did she mean that she was not prepared to be in "performance" mode?

Midge has more emotional intimacy with Joel and Lenny.

Edited January 5, 2019 by grayson

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, grayson said:

Benjamin is amused by Midge's quirkiness, but she is always "on stage" for him with incessant sarcasm and irreverence . Have we seen any conversations where she expresses vulnerability or neediness with him? Midge told her mother that she was disconcerted by Benjamin's unexpected appearance at the park while she was with Ethan, because she was "not in the right frame of mind" to deal with him. Did she mean that she was not prepared to be in "performance" mode?

Midge has more emotional intimacy with Joel and Lenny.

Wow. So true. I wonder if most viewers at least understood this difference of Midge being less real with Benjamin. I missed it, even though I've at least recently talked about (with an adult daughter) the phenomenon of putting ones best self forward when first dating someone.

[ShadowFacts]

49 minutes ago, grayson said:

Auntie Mame  notes,

Wise observation. Benjamin is amused by Midge's quirkiness, but she is always "on stage" for him with incessant sarcasm and irreverence . Have we seen any conversations where she expresses vulnerability or neediness with him? Midge told her mother that she was disconcerted by Benjamin's unexpected appearance at the park while she was with Ethan, because she was "not in the right frame of mind" to deal with him. Did she mean that she was not prepared to be in "performance" mode?

Midge has more emotional intimacy with Joel and Lenny.

It strikes me that Midge doesn't have a lot of emotional intimacy with anybody.   She may be most authentic with Susie at times over her doubts and goals.  She's kind of "on" with everyone.  Open with Joel sometimes, and Lenny, but always quick to go back to the snappy quip.  Defense, mask? 

[ProudMary]

Midge is always "on stage."  Remember, this is a woman who would rise before her husband did, put on full make-up and get back into bed before he woke up so he would never see the (physically) "real" Midge.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, ProudMary said:

Midge is always "on stage."  Remember, this is a woman who would rise before her husband did, put on full make-up and get back into bed before he woke up so he would never see the (physically) "real" Midge.  

Yes, an actual mask.  And I think she went right back to measuring her thighs, etc. after they split.  She buys into a lot of the femininity of the era, but is also busting out of its confines at the same time. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

2 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Midge is always "on stage."  Remember, this is a woman who would rise before her husband did, put on full make-up and get back into bed before he woke up so he would never see the (physically) "real" Midge.  

Yes, an actual mask.  And I think she went right back to measuring her thighs, etc. after they split.  She buys into a lot of the femininity of the era, but is also busting out of its confines at the same time. 

My mother (born in 1928) was obsessed with appearances, including what was spoken--both grammar and content.
We could probably make a case that the men of the show have their own societal expectations to outwardly uphold. 

[debraran]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

My mother (born in 1928) was obsessed with appearances, including what was spoken--both grammar and content.
We could probably make a case that the men of the show have their own societal expectations to outwardly uphold. 

My grandparents were immigrants but  for them it was more wanting perfect speech and not sounding like I was a sailor. You don't have to sound "uppity" as she put it, but speak correctly.  The looks factor was as bad then as it probably is now. I heard someone say my son (who cares more about the person's mind and soul) could have done better with his wife. What? Just because she isn't a size 2 or model gorgeous by our standards. I was dumbfounded. My sister's husband was a nice guy, he actually liked her initially back in the 70's, because of the minimal makeup, not talking about pedicures all the time and making peace with her crazy curls when straightening was in. Later, other things clicked.

I know it's a show, but when Midge makes it seem like her 18 inch thighs matter and not eating and never letting a guy see you without makeup, it's just sad. Her husband was wrong to cheat, but Penny's looks were not important, she didn't "earn" him by her looks and if she did, then it didn't matter.  (her name I suppose it hard to not make fun of) ; )    I doubt it will happen, but I hope in her empowerment, she loses some of the mask she wears in and out.

Edited January 6, 2019 by debraran

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

I doubt it will happen, but I hope in her empowerment, she loses some of the mask she wears in and out.

Maybe. Just because Joan Rivers and Phyllis Diller had scary amounts of plastic surgery is no reason why our fictional Midge can't go for the natural look that was also popular in the 60s.

[JasonCC]

I think the Sophie Lennon character is as much Joan Rivers as Midge herself is. The gaudy French apartment and delusions of being a grand lady, the desperate belief she could have been a great dramatic actress, etc. Yes, there is a Phyllis Diller comparison with all the marriage jokes, fat jokes, and uglying herself up--but I think Amy Sherman-Paladino is in such love with Midge she gave the less likeable characteristics of Joan Rivers to another character. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by JasonCC

[Calvada]

I do think hiding money is a Depression generation thing, although I would worry about fire!  My dad, who was a child during the Depression, always had to have cash on hand, at least $300 in his wallet at all times.  We didn't find piles of cash when he passed away, but we found dozens and dozens of pill bottles and other small containers filled with change, mostly quarters, totaling almost $900.  I have no idea why.  

Without his work at Bell Labs, how can Abe turn his back on his tenured position?  What would he and Rose live on?  And where would they live?  If I had that apartment, I'd leave it only in a body bag.   

I wonder how many seasons this will go and if they have a definite end game in mind.  I really hope it's not getting Midge and Joel back together.  

[marcee]

FWIW, Abe may have gotten that job due to backroom dealings by his son. That was my first assumption. So while it *appeared* Bell Labs practically begged to hire him, I just assume it was because his CIA son pulled some strings.

[wendyg]

It strikes me that all the Susie-love in the show is ASP's fantasy for herself, with Susie as stand-in. :)

The point about Midge's choice, I think, is that she didn't even consider *asking* Benjamin if he would accept the life she wanted and could offer him. He might have been wrong about himself, but she didn't even give him a chance; she forgot he even existed as soon as she got the call. And I think she went to Joel because she knew she'd trashed Benjamin, and whether or not he knew it yet that road was closed.

People reacted in all sorts of ways to the Depression. A friend's parents were left so shaken by it that for many, many years he and his SO would go for walks on garbage night looking for things worth scavenging and even today he counts every penny. Consciousness of it is embedded deeply enough in me that I literally shouted at the TV when I saw that Bill Clinton was signing to repeal Glass-Steagall, financial market protections put in place to prevent something like the Depression from happening again. That was in 1992...and guess what happened, not so many years later?

[Armchair Critic]

The whole family being able to take 2 months in the Catskills made me a bit jealous. Not that I would want to spend that much time with my family, but it goes to show how out of touch with reality Midge has always been.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

The whole family being able to take 2 months in the Catskills made me a bit jealous. Not that I would want to spend that much time with my family, but it goes to show how out of touch with reality Midge has always been.

I think it varies where you can go and what you do. Some of my neighbors do it for the summer, but after years of it, hate it. They'll complain but they still go. They are Orthodox or Hasidic and the husbands will go but only for a week or so or weekends, they work. You are in a bubble though, Midge's not as thick but as she travels, she will see a lot of cultural differences and people from all walks of life.

[shapeshifter]

51 minutes ago, debraran said:

I think it varies where you can go and what you do. Some of my neighbors do it for the summer, but after years of it, hate it. They'll complain but they still go. They are Orthodox or Hasidic and the husbands will go but only for a week or so or weekends, they work. You are in a bubble though, Midge's not as thick but as she travels, she will see a lot of cultural differences and people from all walks of life.

I imagine before air conditioning, their ancestors were more appreciative. 

[qtpye]

One of the things that has been a constant theme with the Weismann family is the need to be the best. I was wondering if in reality that someone who grew up privileged as Midge would enjoy being a shop girl. Then I realized that it was another place where she was the definite alpa. She is the best sales girl and telephone operator. If Penny Panda had not caused her a demotion by showing up to her work and calling her a slut, she would probably be running the place. The ladies at her work look up to her and think she is very sophisticated. I do love how she seems to be good at almost everything it is probably why she had such a problem with Sophie. Even though Sophie was being ridiculous with her opulent house and giving away fur coats, she was also affirming her position as the more successful performer and cultured lady. It was something Midge could not stand. I mean even with a divorce and two kids ( scandalous at the time, not so much today) she landed a handsome rich doctor who was willing to jump through hoops to be with her. The lady is used to winning. 

I just saw a documentary about male and female comedians, Most of them have to hone their craft for years before they get any sort of opportunity even close to the Shai Baldwin gig.

[wendyg]

5 hours ago, debraran said:

Midge's not as thick but as she travels, she will see a lot of cultural differences and people from all walks of life.

Your contact with the people you meet on the road tends to be rather shallow, though - particularly as you rise through the ranks and start staying in hotels (my personal experience is on the folk scene, where you stay with people a lot and most of the people you know, also know each other, but even there the successful ones transition from clubs and personal hospitality to auditoriums and hotels). The more successful you become the more you become isolated from anyone who isn't in your immediate family or working for you (and sometimes even them), and the more you're in a different place every night. And when you do get time off to live a "normal life" for a bit, you're still largely isolated because your friends and family have jobs, and aren't free to hang out with you all day. Plus, for a comedian, there's also the factor that everything that happens in your life is grist for your act, so even when you're apparently just hanging out with friends you're watching them all the time - and that goes double if you do, as Midge says she does, "observational comedy". (Nora Ephron wrote about this in her much-better-anmd-much-funnier-than-the-movie-novel HEARTBURN; her main character was married to a daily columnist who is always asking himself whenever anyone says anything, "Is that a column?").

[debraran]

29 minutes ago, wendyg said:

Your contact with the people you meet on the road tends to be rather shallow, though - particularly as you rise through the ranks and start staying in hotels (my personal experience is on the folk scene, where you stay with people a lot and most of the people you know, also know each other, but even there the successful ones transition from clubs and personal hospitality to auditoriums and hotels). The more successful you become the more you become isolated from anyone who isn't in your immediate family or working for you (and sometimes even them), and the more you're in a different place every night. And when you do get time off to live a "normal life" for a bit, you're still largely isolated because your friends and family have jobs, and aren't free to hang out with you all day. Plus, for a comedian, there's also the factor that everything that happens in your life is grist for your act, so even when you're apparently just hanging out with friends you're watching them all the time - and that goes double if you do, as Midge says she does, "observational comedy". (Nora Ephron wrote about this in her much-better-anmd-much-funnier-than-the-movie-novel HEARTBURN; her main character was married to a daily columnist who is always asking himself whenever anyone says anything, "Is that a column?").

I love Nora's books. ; )  What you said reminds me of how Jerry Seinfeld talked about comedians and how lonely most of them are and awkward in many ways. It is isolating and you live audience to audience. You develop a thick skin but it's not a great life for many but addicting in an odd way.  Guys like Billy Joel love the money they get from being famous but remember wistfully when they were the "piano man" in a bar playing and the audience was real and relatable.  I have a hard time seeing Midge in either role, mom and wife or on the road comedian. Maybe if she develops more but now she seems so shallow, I can't picture either.

Edited January 12, 2019 by debraran

[AuntieMame]

On 1/5/2019 at 3:54 PM, ProudMary said:

Midge is always "on stage."  Remember, this is a woman who would rise before her husband did, put on full make-up and get back into bed before he woke up so he would never see the (physically) "real" Midge.  

My dad once told me that he never saw his second wife without full makeup. She apparently had a similar routine. I was shocked and horrified. 

I sometimes wonder just how much things have changed. Women’s lives still seem to revolve first and foremost around their looks and how those looks will translate into male approval and marriage. Example: A very talented female surgeon saved my life. A few years later I needed to talk to her so was googling her contact information. There were reviews on the site. 

One review said “Don’t worry, she is much prettier in person.” 

And some of the subsequent reviews commented on this. Not a single one commented critically. Nobody said “Hey, her skill as a surgeon matters far more than the fact that she is average in looks.” 

[debraran]

6 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

My dad once told me that he never saw his second wife without full makeup. She apparently had a similar routine. I was shocked and horrified. 

I sometimes wonder just how much things have changed. Women’s lives still seem to revolve first and foremost around their looks and how those looks will translate into male approval and marriage. Example: A very talented female surgeon saved my life. A few years later I needed to talk to her so was googling her contact information. There were reviews on the site. 

One review said “Don’t worry, she is much prettier in person.” 

And some of the subsequent reviews commented on this. Not a single one commented critically. Nobody said “Hey, her skill as a surgeon matters far more than the fact that she is average in looks.” 

It is sad. I remember a resident at a hospital seeing me at a beach and I had mascara smudge on my face. He said "you look fine without makeup, don't bother with it". I thought he was just flirting but later he said, so many women buy into the "getting a man with makeup, lying about their looks, but where does that end up?" I guess his point is if wearing padded items and girdles (now spanx) makes you feel better, fine, but what happens when the fellow sees you aren't padded or more wiggly or your lashes are fake? For me the stress would be too much but I know women it became a part of life. My daughters (20's) don't like makeup except for under eye concealer and maybe some mascara and I bug them they'd look older for interviews etc. but I realize I am thinking of our culture too where "adult" women are told to wear tons of creams and makeup to look better and guys just get to roll out of bed. lol

I think it's moving slowly,but better than it used to be. I feel as parents, you have to start combating the image magazine and TV and commercials try to tell your daughters, "you just aren't quite good enough".

[wendyg]

Makeup has never been part of my life. I decided when I was about 13 that if I never got used to how I looked with it I'd never think I looked bad without it. But I don't have the kind of job where an employer would care. (These things may be linked.)

[shapeshifter]

20 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

. . . I sometimes wonder just how much things have changed. Women’s lives still seem to revolve first and foremost around their looks and how those looks will translate into male approval and marriage. Example: A very talented female surgeon saved my life. A few years later I needed to talk to her so was googling her contact information. There were reviews on the site. 

One review said “Don’t worry, she is much prettier in person.” 

And some of the subsequent reviews commented on this. Not a single one commented critically. Nobody said “Hey, her skill as a surgeon matters far more than the fact that she is average in looks.” 

I was about to say that things have changed in that now women put on makeup, dye their hair, put on support undergarments, etc. more for the purpose of getting a job, and that the purpose is to look younger--but, really, it's still all about the "male gaze," which, in TMMM, is more within the context of being marriageable and a success on stage--but also to get hired (not for gigs), and, in Midge's case, this means selling products that cater to women's images--kind of continuous loop of adorning herself to prove she can sell products to women to adorn themselves.

 

1 hour ago, wendyg said:

Makeup has never been part of my life. I decided when I was about 13 that if I never got used to how I looked with it I'd never think I looked bad without it. But I don't have the kind of job where an employer would care. (These things may be linked.)

I gave up wearing makeup in college in the 70s after taking LSD, LOL.
I started wearing it again when I found myself a late-30s single parent seeking gainful employment.
Nowadays just a little powder on the nose when working closely with other humans, LOL.

But the hair dye is a bigger deal, IMO, for women. I haven't. Midge doesn't need to yet (Rachel B probably does for the part). Rose must, and, for that matter, Abe too. I wonder if they'll show this in season 3 or not waste screen time on it.

[ShadowFacts]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I was about to say that things have changed in that now women put on makeup, dye their hair, put on support undergarments, etc. more for the purpose of getting a job, and that the purpose is to look younger--but, really, it's still all about the "male gaze," which, in TMMM, is more within the context of being marriageable and a success on stage--but also to get hired (not for gigs), and, in Midge's case, this means selling products that cater to women's images--kind of continuous loop of adorning herself to prove she can sell products to women to adorn themselves.

 

I gave up wearing makeup in college in the 70s after taking LSD, LOL.
I started wearing it again when I found myself a late-30s single parent seeking gainful employment.
Nowadays just a little powder on the nose when working closely with other humans, LOL.

But the hair dye is a bigger deal, IMO, for women. I haven't. Midge doesn't need to yet (Rachel B probably does for the part). Rose must, and, for that matter, Abe too. I wonder if they'll show this in season 3 or not waste screen time on it.

Ha!  I'm dying to know how LSD separated you from makeup!  As for hair dye, Abe might be going natural for the next season if Tony Shalhoub is any indication presently -- I've seen him with a very salt-and-peppery beard.  Of course he may shave that off before filming begins, but maybe Abe will be going into a mid-life anti-authoritarian phase. 

[AuntieMame]

I want to know how LSD separated you from make-up too. Was it one of those gazing into the mirror while tripping epiphanies?

[CofCinci]

On 1/10/2019 at 11:06 AM, marcee said:

FWIW, Abe may have gotten that job due to backroom dealings by his son. That was my first assumption. So while it *appeared* Bell Labs practically begged to hire him, I just assume it was because his CIA son pulled some strings.

That was my impression as well, especially when they revealed Abe “working” at the Bell Labs Room with useless lumps and no budget/resources. 

On 1/11/2019 at 10:12 PM, Armchair Critic said:

The whole family being able to take 2 months in the Catskills made me a bit jealous. Not that I would want to spend that much time with my family, but it goes to show how out of touch with reality Midge has always been.

Anyone know how much 2 months in the Catskills cost - adjusted to 2019 USD?

[Pallas]

14 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Anyone know how much 2 months in the Catskills cost - adjusted to 2019 USD?

While looking for an answer to that question, I found this 1984 article from the Times, about a comedian who continued to play the Borscht Belt as it faded away. In the mid-80's, the average stay had dropped from two weeks to three days, and Grossinger's -- which by then boasted more tennis courts than Wimbledon -- was trying out a marketing campaign for "High-Tech Rec." 

The article also notes that in the summer of 1959, the new theater at The Concord had just opened; it seated 3,000. Three thousand seats. That's more than twice the capacity of the Broadway house for Hamilton. 

[debraran]

This group of hotels are sad to see in ruins but many are still going strong. When Jewish families could only go there without discrimination and get Kosher food, they were flourishing. My neighbors still go and sometimes get group rates if they rent homes together. The prices were probably still high but many lower middle class families went also so I'm sure there were a variety of them. I'm glad the discrimination is less but for families that still want to relax, eat Kosher and are Orthodox, it's still a good option. Some of my neighbors do a month, some the whole summer, but as most parents can attest too, it's not as relaxing with children. ; )

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-ghost-hotels-of-the-catskills

[AuntieMame]

For a look at a current luxury resort, check out Mohunk Mountain Lodge, which I ran across the last time I was researching the old Borscht Belt. There also still seem to be affordable inns, lodges and cabin rentals. It makes me want to take a trip. Too bad we can't time travel on our vacation as well. I've always thought that would be fun. Borscht Belt in the fifties would be a fun destination. 

Hey gang. We don't have a chat thread, but could those who want, humor me? If time travel were possible in vacation, where would you go besides the Borscht Belt? Thanks in advance. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by AuntieMame
Shamelessly Indulging Myself

[StrictTime]

On 12/10/2018 at 9:40 AM, Mrs peel said:

 

The writers truly want us to forget she even has kids, because the Catskills episodes should have shown more with the children. 

 

Of all the things I would change about this series, number one would be to ditch the kids.  They aren’t really needed. It’s too late now, however. 

[StrictTime]

Just finished season 2.  On the issue of Midge going back to Joel—they aren’t actually divorced, yet, right? How was she going to marry the doctor without being free to do so?  It seems that before Abe could give his consent, that would be the main issue.  In my mind, Midge going back to Joel makes sense in this context. She realizes that her life is about to spin out of control, and he’s an anchor, of sorts.

 

I really enjoyed this season and hope season 3 isn’t far behind.  Having been “on stage”, there is a high you get from it that is like no other. I can see Midge forgetting all her other obligations to get that high. It happens all the time.  But I just wish they had cut the kids out of the story line completely.  The way they are relegated to being furniture completely snaps me out of the world they are building.

[AuntieMame]

21 minutes ago, StrictTime said:

Just finished season 2.  On the issue of Midge going back to Joel—they aren’t actually divorced, yet, right? How was she going to marry the doctor without being free to do so?  It seems that before Abe could give his consent, that would be the main issue.  In my mind, Midge going back to Joel makes sense in this context. She realizes that her life is about to spin out of control, and he’s an 

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

 

And the kids are Joel's. He has love and obligation to tend to them while Midge is in tour. 

[wendyg]

AuntieMame: The name is Mohonk. My parents used to go up there for short vacations. Great place, though hardly cheap. Very old-world. (Among other things, no TV.)

[AuntieMame]

The pictures of the place are astounding. So lucky that your parents got to go there. 

[wendyg]

Well, actually, in my childhood we spent several New Year's breaks there along with various of their friends who had kids of similar ages. No comedians that I recall, but lots of ice skating on the lake, hiking etc. It was a great place, and lives fondly in my memory. I could never afford it now!