The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

Morrigan2575 · May 7, 2017

19 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

My list of issues with Laurel goes like this:

No martial arts training. Laurel should have had martial arts skills already built into her backstory.

She did. Granted it was nothing compared to Comics BC. However, the show did set Laurel up with a martial arts and gun training in S1. It was mentioned in S1 that she had self defense training and, they wrote in that Max Fuller scene in order to show what a badass LL was and, how she came to Oliver and Tommy's rescue. They also had that whole shotgun scene later in S1 to show that LL is a bad ass, etc.

The problem is, they had her beat up a guy by attacking him from behind, a guy who clearly didn't have any training since he was letting his goons beat up Oliver and Tommy.

Second problem, KC is, as Kim Manners said back on SPN, horribly uncoordinated. So she can't pull off any level of believable physicality even when the stunt woman does most of the work.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Morrigan2575

Starfish35 · May 7, 2017

Self-defense training isn't martial arts training though. It wouldn't have been hard at all to throw in that she'd been doing martial arts since childhood. Now could KC have believably have pulled that off? Doubtful, as you say. :( So yes, the first issue is that they needed an actress that could pull off the physicality of the role.

I suspect they didn't though because probably the original plan was for Oliver to train her.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Starfish35

Morrigan2575 · May 7, 2017

In RL? Absolutely. In Show, I think they just used "self defense" as a generic/catch all for whatever fighting skills they wanted her to have eventually. Basically an undefined background that could cover anything.

The show takes that shortcut a lot.

leopardprint · May 8, 2017

I wonder if it would have worked better if Oliver had been dating Sara and took Laurel on the boat and then Laurel came back with Sara's backstory sometime in S1? Would have been slightly easier to handle the cheating/sister swapping if it had been with the one true love instead of on the one true love.

I think you guys are right that the whole Rachel Dawes is the Black Canary setup was never going to work. Funnily enough because I initially didn't like the character but then did like her after the recast.

BkWurm1 · May 8, 2017

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

More like an untrained Rachel Dawes who was herself, untrained! Yeah, yeah, it's been years, but it still frosts my cookies, how I was supposed to accept Rachel Dawes as an ADA in Batman Begins, when age-wise, that twat was supposed to be finishing college or starting law school when Bruce was thinking about killing the man who'd murdered his parents, and let me just leave it there, before I lose my shit and go ranting and wailing off on what a judgmental, none of her bidnez harpy she was when she slapped Bruce and drove to where Carmine was, and made me want to reach to the movie screen/my teevee (when I got it on bluray) to snatch her bald.

I think Katie Holmes was miscast but I understood the slap and putting him face to face with the big picture. He was too wrapped up in his own self pity before that and her actions woke him up. Or drove him off the edge to madness, lol. I mean, a Bat? ;)

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I think CL and SA have good chemistry. But as much as I love her as Sara I'm not sure she would have been my first choice for Laurel.

I agree they have a good chemistry. SA and CL are comfortable around each other in a way I never saw with KC. But while I didn't find it hard to buy Oliver and Sara on a physical level and I was fine with the lunge and the season two hook up since it always felt shorttem, their history and shared trauma's made a deep romantic connection not really workable and especially not long term.

They understand each other in a way most don't but the same thing gives them that understanding is what probably would keep them from ever being that special person that lets them be the best version of themselves. Still, I really love when they get to work together or show off their friendship.

statsgirl · May 8, 2017

I think CL would have made me believe Laurel more than KC did, especially in terms of the physical stuff, and I thin that if EBR hadn't appeared, CL as Laurel and her chemistry with SA would have made me overcome the cheating backstory.

I think KC's technique of method acting served her badly in the role of Laurel. I understand why she wouldn't have wanted to start training to be the Black Canary until Laurel herself did but it didn't give her enough time to get into the physicality of the role in time. TV creates magical solutions that real life can't match.

GHScorpiosRule · May 8, 2017

On 5/7/2017 at 10:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I think Katie Holmes was miscast but I understood the slap and putting him face to face with the big picture. He was too wrapped up in his own self pity before that and her actions woke him up. Or drove him off the edge to madness, lol. I mean, a Bat? ;)

Agree that Katie was miscast; I even hated kid Rachel.

Aaa to the rest? LALALALALALALAAAAAA!!!! I can't hear youuuu!!!!!!!!??????? ???????????????

Like I'm going to blame Bruce for being pissed that the guy who murdered his parents was going to get off when he was supposed to be put away for life. I don't blame him for not seeing the bigger picture, because hey! He wasn't police or in law enforcement...yet. So Rachel can just SHUT IT.?

And yeah, a Bat! "A man who dresses up like a bat CLEARLY has issues."

Bruce: Batman Begins

Bats: "I'm a rich kid with issues. LOTS of issues." Justice League Unlimited -"This Little Piggy" to Diana when she accuses (rightly) Bats of 'no dating for the Batman because it might cut into his "brooding time."'

Me: ?????????????

Edited May 9, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

LeighAn · May 9, 2017

I think Stephen and Caity only had chemistry in the sense that contrasted to Katie and Stephen's negative chemistry they appeared remotely more appealing (although I personally was as indifferent to them as I was Lauriver) Ie "well it's better then Laurel" chemistry- but great chemistry? Enough to sustain a television series and prolonged story telling? Sorry I don't think they had it in terms of the actors chemistry, acting or even their characters make up to make an interesting, root able complexed or sustained romantic storyline beyond the three or four eps they were given.

Id personally have become indifferent or even stopped watching if we were still watching Sara and Oliver have a brood off three seasons on. They need characters that contrast with them and not mirrors of each other.

Mellowyellow · May 9, 2017

I thought Sara and Oliver were too similar and not in the "We have the same hobbies and brain power" FitzSimmons sense but the same broodiness.

It would have been a yawn fest.

I still can't get over how much Laurel and Oliver looked like they hated each other onscreen. And not the sexual tension hate. More the " you're a pretty vile human" hate. Even in s4 when everyone was saying Laurel was acting inappropriately flirty I thought she still looked like she was scowling and thinking nasty thoughts about him despite the weird flirty acting.

BkWurm1 · May 9, 2017

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

I think Stephen and Caity only had chemistry in the sense that contrasted to Katie and Stephen's negative chemistry they appeared remotely more appealing (although I personally was as indifferent to them as I was Lauriver) Ie "well it's better then Laurel" chemistry- but great chemistry? Enough to sustain a television series and prolonged story telling? Sorry I don't think they had it in terms of the actors chemistry, acting or even their characters make up to make an interesting, root able complexed or sustained romantic storyline beyond the three or four eps they were given.

Id personally have become indifferent or even stopped watching if we were still watching Sara and Oliver have a brood off three seasons on. They need characters that contrast with them and not mirrors of each other.

I tend to agree. They IMO have a good chemistry for team ups and fights and probably tossing back a few drinks and I like seeing them still bump into each other and do that but they are too alike for them to be something long term even if I do like to see the history they have together.

BkWurm1 · May 9, 2017

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Like I'm going to blame Bruce for being pissed that the guy who murdered his parents was going to get off when he was supposed to be put away for life. I don't blame him for not seeing the bigger picture, because hey! He wasn't police or in law enforcement...yet. So Rachel can just SHUT IT.?

Being pissed, sure, no I don't blame him. Planning on throwing his life away for momentary vengence, yes I do blame him and I think his loved ones had a right to be pissed at him as well. And once Rachel did show him how much bigger the problem was than just Bruce's own personal tragedy, he set out to become a man that can do something about the systemic problem, which he wouldn't have done if she hadn't slapped him. Sorrynotsorry, lol. I know I'm probably torturing you just a wee bit. ;)

Laurel even though she was clearly modeled after Rachel Dawes wasn't even Oliver's motivation to addressing the problems. That was the one thing I liked about RD in Batman Beyond. But Arrow reduced her to a symbol of his old life...when who he was before wasn't all that great. Maybe Laurel would have served the story better if she'd never been a girlfriend and instead was just a friend. Him running off with her sister and it getting her killed still would have been great conflict, but I would have been so much more receptive to Oliver figuring out that his friend meant more to him than he realized than her being some girl he constantly cheated on. Or basically I'm saying Arrow stole all the wrong things about the Rachel Dawes character.

Edited May 9, 2017 by BkWurm1

GHScorpiosRule · May 9, 2017

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Being pissed, sure, no I don't blame him. Planning on throwing his life away for momentary vengence, yes I do blame him and I think his loved ones had a right to be pissed at him as well. And once Rachel did show him how much bigger the problem was than just Bruce's own personal tragedy, he set out to become a man that can do something about the systemic problem, which he wouldn't have done if she hadn't slapped him. Sorrynotsorry, lol. I know I'm probably torturing you just a wee bit. ;)

Taking response to Mind Your Surroundings thread, as this is getting too offtopic here!

tv echo · May 9, 2017

Arrow: Prometheus Has It Wrong; To Hurt Oliver Queen You Must Go Through Felicity Smoak
May 8, 2017 Mark Wilson
http://theinscribermag.com/arrow-prometheus-has-it-wrong-to-hurt-oliver-queen-you-must-go-through-felicity-smoak/

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As a father, there is nothing worse than seeing your children in danger. However, in Arrow, Prometheus has decided to take the war to Oliver Queen by bringing harm to his son William. When we found out that Oliver had a child it was believed that it would change the landscape of the show some. In a way it did as it broke up the relationship between Oliver and Felicity Smoak.

If Prometheus has his way, Oliver will leap into action as his son’s life will be in danger– but why go that far? There is no doubt that Oliver loves his son, however, we’ve never seen that side. There are not even a handful of episodes where William is featured, less talked about. So for the writers to bring that element into play makes no sense.

Not saying that Oliver doesn’t love his child but if Prometheus really wishes to hurt the Arrow, his best option would be to go after Felicity.

William is a factor, small but still somewhat important. This has nothing to do with a father’s love but just the importance of the story. William was never a part of the storyline, however, Oliver’s love for Felicity is as strong as it gets. For years he has been the playboy of Starling City but until he got with Felicity he didn’t know the meaning of the word love.
* * *
A Felicity abduction for Prometheus will have Oliver on the brink of a breakdown. He’s already second-guessing himself after the torture Chase put him through, then to lose Felicity will drive him over the edge. His love for her and his hate for Chase will leave Oliver twisting in the wind, not knowing which way is up or down. This is the best move for Chase to play, instead, they want to bring in a character that has no ties to the storyline.

If William was a key part from the beginning then this should be considered a smart play by the writers, but he’s not. Felicity is the smarter play here, not a kid Oliver and the audience barely knows.

Edited May 9, 2017 by tv echo

tangerine95 · May 9, 2017

38 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Arrow: Prometheus Has It Wrong; To Hurt Oliver Queen You Must Go Through Felicity Smoak
May 8, 2017 Mark Wilson
http://theinscribermag.com/arrow-prometheus-has-it-wrong-to-hurt-oliver-queen-you-must-go-through-felicity-smoak/

I really agree with this tbh.I think they are counting on the fact that its his kid and people will automatically buy into that love but I feel like on a TV show people need to see a relationship to invest in it and just knowing William is his son isn't enough.So I think it was a mistake to have him kidnapped,it doesn't raise the stakes,its repetitive and it just makes William look dumb and Samantha look like an incompetent mother.

Edited May 9, 2017 by tangerine95

wonderwall · May 10, 2017

This is by far the greatest article I've read about Felicity

How Felicity Smoak Quietly Became A Superhero On ‘Arrow’ (And Why It Matters)
http://uproxx.com/tv/arrow-felicity-smoak/

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Arrow’s Felicity Smoak (Emily Bett Rickards) started out as most women do in the comic book world – as a side story. Oliver Queen (Stephen Amell) was the egotistical yet charming womanizer, a familiar superhero type. Felicity was the rambling computer nerd who was drawn to his mystery and cause. Their first meeting consisted of him chucking a bullet-ridden laptop on her desk before blaming a latte spill for the damage. The pair’s relationship would go on in that vein for a while: Oliver coming to her for help with his secret vigilante side job and Felicity using her STEM background to unknowingly put away some of the city’s worst criminals. Eventually, Felicity clued into Oliver’s double life and chose to join him and his partner, John Diggle (David Ramsey), in their quest to protect Starling City.

But over the seasons, Felicity morphed into something more than just Oliver’s techie sidekick – a played-out cliché in the superhero verse. The series molded her into a fully rounded character, one with agency and abilities that didn’t come courtesy of a cape.

It delves further deeper into the writing fails that Felicity as a character had to endure, as well as her achievements, what makes her a rounded character, etc.

Simply a fantastic in depth look on Felicity as a character and how she's grown over the past 5 years.

Edited May 10, 2017 by wonderwall

tv echo · May 10, 2017

I always take a breath before reading the TV Fanatic Round Table review of Arrow episodes, but their review of 520 wasn't as bad as I expected (though they still couldn't resist criticizing Felicity)...

Arrow Round Table: Will Olicity Reunite?
Paul Dailly at May 9, 2017 5:30 pm.
https://www.tvfanatic.com/2017/05/arrow-round-table-will-olicity-reunite/

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After getting to see how Oliver and Felicity reacted to being stuck together, are you on board with a reunion for them?

Steve: I surprisingly enjoyed their time together while trapped. Going into the episode, I wasn't particularly looking forward to it as I was convinced it would be nothing but an hour of bickering.

However, I was pleasantly surprised, and I'm looking to seeing Ollie and Felicity start fresh in a sense now that they have come clean to each other.

Robin: I enjoyed this. This episode reminded me of why I thought they were good for each other back in the earlier seasons. Also, the chemistry between them during the flashback was seriously off the charts; that was really well done. If the writers continue writing them like this episode (and only this episode so far this season), a reunion could work.

Jim: I'm on board with a reunion. While I was not one of the more passionate "Ollicity" fans when they first got together, seeing them come clean with each other and Oliver now supporting Felicity, I can get behind a reunion.

Kathleen: Like Jim, I'm not a huge Olicity fan, but I fully admit to being shocked (shocked, I say!) when Oliver and Felicity actually had an honest conversation for what seems like the first time in forever.

On the other hand, Oliver still has pretty much the same issues and flaws that Felicity objected to in the first place. And unless she's honestly ready to accept him as he is (rather than how she wishes he is), the relationship is doomed.
* * *
What was your favorite scene?

Steve: I loved the flashback scene with Curtis setting Oliver and Felicity up for a romantic evening. That was cute.

Robin: Felicity. Said. Sorry!! My favorite scene was the scene where Felicity admitted what I've been saying from the get-go, that she was wrong regarding William, that she misjudged and mistreated Oliver, and that she had been a hypocrite lately. Vindication!!

Jim: I loved Curtis geeking out over ARGUS's upgrade to his T-Spheres. It was a cute reminder than underneath "Mr. Terrific" is an adorable nerd.

Kathleen: I'm going with Robin. It's so satisfying to see Felicity get off her high horse and finally act like a human being again.

Edited May 10, 2017 by tv echo

Chaser · May 10, 2017

I will never not rage when I see Felicity attacked for Oliver's actions.

lemotomato · May 10, 2017

I'm extra offended that it's the two women on the panel angry at Felicity for standing up for herself.

bijoux · May 10, 2017

They're setting the bar for the men in their lives pretty low. And who is this Ollie person Steve mentions?

Midnight Lullaby · May 10, 2017

It's funny that first Kathleen says Oliver still has the same flaws and Felicity needs to accept him like he is then agrees with the other woman saying Felicity misjudged him and mistreated him..LOL, pick a lane!

leopardprint · May 10, 2017

Some people see it as Felicity wanting Oliver to pick her over his kid. (These people are wrong.) ?

Other people see it as Oliver picking his lying, greedy, hypocritical baby mother over Felicity. (These people are right.) ?

Edited May 10, 2017 by leopardprint

BkWurm1 · May 10, 2017

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

And unless she's honestly ready to accept him as he is (rather than how she wishes he is), the relationship is doomed.

This baffles me. This idea that their relationship was doomed if she doesn't accept him for who he really is rather than who she wishes him to be. She saw him for who he was through his behavior and she decided she couldn't live with it. There was never any wishful thinking. She never accepted him how she wished him to be since she never accepted his behavior. Hence breaking up with him. I keep being told that she broke up with him because she didn't know the kind of man Oliver is. No. Knowing him well wasn't the problem. Knowing how he was going to continue to behave was WHY she broke up with him. The break through is understanding the underlying cause of the problem. Something they can address.

Forgive me. I'm a bit grumpy after replying for the last two hours to posts on that other site.

Edited May 10, 2017 by BkWurm1

May 10, 2017

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Robin: Felicity. Said. Sorry!! My favorite scene was the scene where Felicity admitted what I've been saying from the get-go, that she was wrong regarding William, that she misjudged and mistreated Oliver, and that she had been a hypocrite lately. Vindication!!

That right there is exactly why I dislike the apology at the end. Haters have been vindicated in thinking that it was all Felicity's fault and that's just so unfair and not true. Grrrrrrr.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Guest

Mellowyellow · May 10, 2017

Haters will hate her for apologising or not apologising. I've seen the nutjob posts on Twitter! These Pele make no sense!

LeighAn · May 11, 2017

That round table just typifies why women are their own worst enemy. Women going after women even when the male reviewers were far more supportive towards both Oliver and Felicity in their reception of the episode.

Either that or the women are bitter KC fans. Still salty AF.

tv echo · May 11, 2017

A.V. Club reviewer gave 521 a grade of "B"...

Arrow might have made its villain too damn powerful
By Alasdair Wilkins May 10, 2017
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/arrow-might-have-made-its-villain-too-damn-powerfu-255139

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But where Arrow (and a whole bunch of other TV shows and movies in similar situations, as there’s plenty of guilt to go round here) gets frustrating is in making it appear as though it’s impossible for Team Arrow to ever really get the upper hand on Adrian, even temporarily. The show has decided to depict him as nigh omniscient, as he appears capable of anticipating and countering every possible move the team can make. He always has a ludicrously complex trap waiting for them, as with the room of concrete tonight, and he always sees any gambit coming a mile off, as when he uses his father’s old lawyer to pass psychologically damaging information to Oliver and Thea.

This presents a pair of storytelling challenges. The first is that it becomes damn hard for the show to pull off a successful misdirection with Chase seemingly being beaten. Sure, it looks like he is legitimately surprised when Oliver laughs at the mention of him carrying out his father’s legacy, but would he really be so careless as to not extract all possible information from the lawyer ahead of time? After all his impeccably plotted, shamelessly byzantine schemes, would his effort to weaponize tuberculosis really be as simple to stop as it proves to be for Team Arrow, as Sampson and his henchmen don’t prove to be a particularly difficult threat to deal with. None of that feels consistent with the Chase we’ve met over the course of the season, so it’s hard not to reject these developments out of hand, to not see the final twist coming. Maybe Chase really was defeated for a second there, in which case the ease of the victory doesn’t track with his development. Or maybe he was faking all along, in which case the show still didn’t set up a sufficiently compelling false win for Team Arrow to fool the audience.

This gripe aside, ”Honor Thy Fathers” is a very good episode of Arrow, and a worthy part of the larger endgame. The conclusion of the episode is symptomatic of Arrow’s far from unique reliance on backloading the heroes’ victory, with the premise being that every defeat along the way will make the eventual victory all the sweeter. And yes, it’s possible to build successfully to such a pay-off, and I won’t rule out that Arrow will get there in the final two weeks. Right now, though, it feels like Chase has been made too overpowered for any eventual defeat to be believable, and Team Arrow has been so consistently outflanked that they risk damaging their credibility; the mere fact they celebrate the win instead of reflecting on how easy it was is a little suspect. For what it’s worth, these struggles in building up a powerful villain while also keeping the underdog hero credible enough to eventually win would probably sound all too familiar to a professional wrestler like tonight’s returning guest star Cody Rhodes. Again, this is a storytelling problem that transcends this one particular episode.
* * *
Everything else is solid, if a little ill-defined. I’ll admit that as a big wrestling fan, there’s probably no amount of Cody Rhodes as Derek Sampson that would satisfy me, but even adjusting for that his return feels a tad undercooked, with him not even getting a proper rematch with Oliver. There’s an interesting possibility to play up the theme of team-building here: Oliver wins the day because he has built a proper team for himself, while Chase loses because he’s employing a bunch of psychos with no particular loyalty to or interesting in what he’s doing. That just doesn’t appear to be the kind of thematic depth to which Arrow aspires, which is fine; the show is under no obligation to be anything other than what it’s trying to be. “Honor Thy Fathers” just appears a tad too content to be simple and straightforward when a little complexity, a little willingness to dive deeper or wander off the path could be useful. Hell, Oliver’s decision to become the Green Arrow again happens during a commercial break, with no soaring montage of him putting the suit back on. This is a version of Arrow far more workmanlike than the show is at its best. None of this leaves me worried for the last two episodes, but there’s no particular reason for the third-to-last episode to play out in quite so minor a key.