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The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

Grammaeryn

By Grammaeryn
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Morrigan2575
Morrigan2575

I always find it odd when people blame the writing for LLs failure. I'll give them that for Lauiver because of the whole cheating thing but, let's be honest if SA/KC had the chemistry that SA/EBR had,

lemotomato
lemotomato

Sorry, that argument rings really hollow when the show has had a history of killing off/mistreating other female characters without a peep of protest from those same "concerned" people. Moira Queen, S

ComicFan777
ComicFan777

I know that this is supposed to be Felicity's dark arc, but...Felicity desperately doing whatever she can to save people (damn the consequences down the road) doesn't make me think that she's losing w

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ban1o

ban1o

(edited)

What I actually hate is that over on TVline there are people blaming 'olicity' for the drop. Actually blaming one element of an episode is just plain wrong. 

 

Drop could've also been because:

  • People liked Sara and her death was a really shitty
  • More Laurel
  • Diggle possibly out of the team?! 

I don't think the reason was solely Olicity because it was heavily advertised over the summer and Arrow came back up. The thing that people complained about the most wasn't Olicity, it was actually Sara dying as well as Laurel becoming BC. 

I think blaming ONE aspect of the show in general including Sara's death, Laurel becoming BC (which most general viewers don't even know for sure) or Olicity is problematic .People just project what they don't like about the show and say that's why the ratings dropped. 

 

Not saying you're doing this at all lol I'm just saying in general when people do this, it's a little premature. If drops become a trend with the direction they're going in, then you can start to blame these things, but after one episode I think it's premature.

Edited by ban1o
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SleepDeprived

SleepDeprived

Well, well, well, Harvey Keitel. I guess there were a lot more people that peaced out than got excited about the direction of the show, after the premiere. It is just one episode, though, so we'll see how it goes in the coming weeks. Maybe some viewers just weren't interested in this specific episode's plot/focus. But, oof, those are not good ratings. On par with some episodes of 2-B but it's only the second episode of 3-A. Arrow's ratings are usually better around the first half of the season compared to the second. The mid-episode drop is a little concerning, too.

 

As much as I still love most of the show, there's a sick part of me that's satisfied at the poor ratings of the follow-up to the premiere. I do wish for things to get better for the next few episodes, though.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

What I actually hate is that over on TVline there are people blaming 'olicity' for the drop. Actually blaming one element of an episode is just plain wrong. 

 

Drop could've also been because:

  • People liked Sara and her death was a really shitty
  • More Laurel
  • Diggle possibly out of the team?! 

I don't think the reason was solely Olicity because it was heavily advertised over the summer and Arrow came back up. The thing that people complained about the most wasn't Olicity, it was actually Sara dying as well as Laurel becoming BC. 

 

How can it possibly be about Olicity? It was the shocking and brutal death of Sara that killed people's enthusiasm to return because a) they loved Sara and/or b) everyone knew that meant more Laurel. And the fact that 302 actually lost viewers during the episode says it all.

 

Plus spoilerTV is rife with 'Laurel is BC at all cost' fans. It's hardly representative of the overall, IMO.

Edited by Guest
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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

It's more worrisome that they lost viewers during the episode over how many didn't watch it at all. That shows that people tuned in, didn't like what they saw and turned off their tv's. 

 

From that article. I don't like to talk about an actor's looks, but I had to laugh at the only interesting thing about Laurel. 

Edited by Sakura12
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Guest

Guest

(edited)

she was talking about tv line not spoiler tv 

 

Oh ok. My bad. I saw spoilerTV in a link and my brain connected wrongly. 

Edited by Guest
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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

she was talking about tv line not spoiler tv 

 

TVLine is bad for that as well. I rarely bother with comments sections on sites like those, because they're usually on a par with youtube comments, but when I have, I've noticed that wars between Katie Cassidy fans and everyone else usually derail the thread within about half a dozen posts.

 

But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the writers promise more lightness to this season? Wasn't there some talk of Oliver being in a better place and not as mopey, as he learned to be a real boy? If people tuned in with that in mind, and saw the Oliver and Felicity Angst Hour, followed by Sara suffering from Death By Laurel's Destiny, then it's understandable that they'd feel ripped off.

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ban1o

ban1o

(edited)

lol ok so Arrow didn't adjust up so final ratings 

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/10/16/wednesday-final-ratings-the-mysteries-of-laura-modern-family-red-band-society-adjusted-up/315681/ 


But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the writers promise more lightness to this season? Wasn't there some talk of Oliver being in a better place and not as mopey, as he learned to be a real boy? If people tuned in with that in mind, and saw the Oliver and Felicity Angst Hour, followed by Sara suffering from Death By Laurel's Destiny, then it's understandable that they'd feel ripped off.

The majority of general viewers don't follow spoilers so I doubt that has much to do with it. 

Edited by ban1o
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KenyaJ

KenyaJ

What I actually hate is that over on TVline there are people blaming 'olicity' for the drop.

That's beyond idiotic, considering the hiatus promotion and the ratings performance of 301. In any event, now that Felicity and Oliver are very much not together they're gonna have to scramble for a new scapegoat.

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ban1o

ban1o

(edited)

Oh ok. My bad. I saw spoilerTV in a link and my brain connected wrongly. 

most people on spoiler tv actually love Olicity lol. If you look at the polls anything Olicity related always wins by a lot. It's just a few users who make sure to comment all the time. 

Edited by ban1o
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Sakura12

Sakura12

Well to be fair the first half was light and fun. I was enjoying it. Then they took it all away and dumped in the garbage so, yeah, I feel cheated. I don't think I ever stopped watching a show after the premiere of the third season. Usually the premieres and finales are the best episodes of show because they are supposed to get you excited for what comes next. Arrow did the opposite of that. 

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Velocity23

Velocity23

But i bet some of them at least read the magazines like EW, TVGuide were such things were also discussed after Comic Con. I still find it weird that only Katie did the interviews this week, i would have thought they would also send Stephen to do some promo. But i guess he was at NYCC.

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strikera0

strikera0

 

The ratings drop serves them right after the ridiculous ending to the season premiere. I know it's still too early to make predictions, but I think Arrow will be hitting 0,7's quite regularly come spring.

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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

But correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the writers promise more lightness to this season? Wasn't there some talk of Oliver being in a better place and not as mopey, as he learned to be a real boy? If people tuned in with that in mind, and saw the Oliver and Felicity Angst Hour, followed by Sara suffering from Death By Laurel's Destiny, then it's understandable that they'd feel ripped off.

Maybe they meant towards the end of the season, which would be kind of a rip-off, if you ask me. I do remember them making a big deal about how much more "intimate" the season would be. I think they meant it in terms of more emotional storylines, but you can't be intimate when you're juggling a cast of thousands each week. I knew we were in trouble when they kept casting more characters in the pre-season. They knew it was a problem in the latter half of S2 because they spoke often about it in interviews, so I'm not quite sure why they haven't addressed it.

I can handle angst and darkness in moderate doses, but dwelling on it gets tiresome (which is why I was never a big Batman fan). I'm hoping these first 2 episodes are anomalies because I can't do an entire season of this.

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

(edited)

lol ok so Arrow didn't adjust up so final ratings 

 

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/10/16/wednesday-final-ratings-the-mysteries-of-laura-modern-family-red-band-society-adjusted-up/315681/ 

The majority of general viewers don't follow spoilers so I doubt that has much to do with it. 

 

We don't know how many of them follow spoilers. And we don't know if it's the general viewers who switched off. A fair number of avid fans on this very site have expressed their decision to no longer watch, or to at least not watch live, thanks to the content of the first two episodes.

 

But i bet some of them at least read the magazines like EW, TVGuide were such things were also discussed after Comic Con. I still find it weird that only Katie did the interviews this week, i would have thought they would also send Stephen to do some promo. But i guess he was at NYCC.

 

 

I'd have thought that they'd get as many people as possible to do interviews, just to keep fans from focusing on the 'Lol, Laurel's the Canary now!' aspect of the show. Why not have EBR talk about Felicity's 'I choose me' moment, or Colton Haynes and David Ramsey to talk about that thing they did when they stood in the corner and said nothing?

Edited by Danny Franks
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

That's beyond idiotic, considering the hiatus promotion and the ratings performance of 301. In any event, now that Felicity and Oliver are very much not together they're gonna have to scramble for a new scapegoat.

 

Plus, if the drop were "Olicity" related, wouldn't it mean that people liked the pairing and were upset that they broke things off at the end of the last ep? If they hated the pairing, they'd tune in after the two called it quits, right?

Edited by apinknightmare
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strikera0

strikera0

(edited)

Plus, if the drop were "Olicity" related, wouldn't it mean that people liked the pairing and were upset that they broke things off at the end of the last ep? If they hated the pairing, they'd tune in after the two called it quits, right?

 

Not necessarily. If you check out the Reddit and IMDB boards that don't have big shipper followings, you will find quite a few complaints about the forced Olicity interaction in the season premiere, so I can see how that could have been a potential turn-off for casual viewers, too.

Edited by strikera0
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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

(edited)

Plus, if the drop were "Olicity" related, wouldn't it mean that people liked the pairing and were upset that they broke things off at the end of the last ep? If they hated the pairing, they'd tune in after the two called it quits, right?

Yeah, complaining about Olicity being the reason is counterintuitive for the reason you mentioned and also the heavy promo of it in the premiere. I don't think I recall seeing a single commercial that didn't feature the pairing so it's not like the casual viewer was caught off guard. Logically people would have just not bothered to watch the premiere at all but the ratings were higher than the S2 premiere. I'm not saying Olicity was the reason for that or that other factors weren't in play, just that there's not much evidence that a large number of viewers didn't bother with the premiere because of Olicity.

I also subscribe to the belief that no one character or couple drives ratings. For all we know this drop was just a blip. Now if we see a recurring pattern of drops over the next several weeks, then we'll talk. I do worry that a drop will happen though based on the quality of episodes we've seen the past few weeks. S3 is missing the same spark that the first few episodes of S2 had.

Edited by NumberCruncher
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JJ928

JJ928

(edited)

I'd have thought that they'd get as many people as possible to do interviews, just to keep fans from focusing on the 'Lol, Laurel's the Canary now!' aspect of the show. Why not have EBR talk about Felicity's 'I choose me' moment, or Colton Haynes and David Ramsey to talk about that thing they did when they stood in the corner and said nothing?

 

I find that they only really do interviews when it's a character specific episode. At least that's what happened last year. David Ramsey and Katie Cassidy both had several interviews come out before their episodes. I'm sure we'll be getting plenty from Emily before 3x05, and John Barrowman for 3x04. It would be odd to interview the cast for a Laurel centric hour.

 

If you look at the actual network marketing, that's where you notice Laurel was not featured. They marketed Olicity, Tommy, and that clip of Capt.Lance with Arrow. Even today, the CW put up the link to watch the episode with a photo of Olicity. The CW is not even attempting to market Laurel, for it being such a game-changing episode for her.

 

I personally think that the General Audience probably doesn't really care about the romance aspect one way or another. Also, the majority general audience probably has never even heard of Green Arrow before the show & had no idea that Laurel is destined to be Canary. Most of the people I know who watch were surprised & disappointed when they learned Laurel was BC in the comics. In my opinion killing Sara was a big mistake, they could have kept her alive and off the show, bring her in a few times a year. If I had to guess why they lost viewers - aside from just the normal drop from a premier - it'd be that.

Edited by JJ928
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KenyaJ

KenyaJ

Plus, if the drop were "Olicity" related, wouldn't it mean that people liked the pairing and were upset that they broke things off at the end of the last ep? If they hated the pairing, they'd tune in after the two called it quits, right?

Don't drag logic into this, LOL. I will keep my mouth shut about the IMDB and Reddit boards (in general, not just about Arrow), lest I offend anyone.

I'd have thought that they'd get as many people as possible to do interviews, just to keep fans from focusing on the 'Lol, Laurel's the Canary now!' aspect of the show. Why not have EBR talk about Felicity's 'I choose me' moment, or Colton Haynes and David Ramsey to talk about that thing they did when they stood in the corner and said nothing?

Because this was Katie Cassidy's chance to shine, dammit! She's been waiting three years for this. #RiseofLaurelLance

In any case, I hope it's Willa's turn this week. More than anyone, it felt like she was under a gag order all summer, and I'm excited to hear her thoughts about Thea, Malcolm, and Oliver. And I hope EBR gets to make the rounds before 305.

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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

I guess "fanfiction come to life" is this year's "fan pandering" lol

Although I don't really view that label as a bad thing. I've read some pretty kick-ass fan fiction that puts the real writing to shame (and I'm not even talking about Olicity specifically). The Arrow writers could learn something.

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slayer2

slayer2

I don't know what good it'll do. I think casual fans make up a good portion of the viewership, and most of them probably don't even know that

Laurel's supposed to become BC, so they're not likely to be as upset as we are, since they won't know the real reason she was killed off was so that Laurel could take her place.

Further to that point some people don't even like Sara (strangely) and some more so are watching for cannon so Sara dying so Laurel can be BC doesn't bother them (my people). I've read a lot of favourable reviews lately from critics glad to see they are finally doing something with Laurel and who see the potential Sara's death opened up. I probably liked Sara more than anyone else on the show (save for Ollie and Huntress) but I see the potential as well.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Not necessarily. If you check out the Reddit and IMDB boards that don't have big shipper followings, you will find quite a few complaints about the forced Olicity interaction in the season premiere, so I can see how that could have been a potential turn-off for casual viewers, too.

 

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but to the casual viewer, Felicity ended that relationship at the end of The Calm, so if that was it, there really wasn't any reason to not tune in to Sara, IMO.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

If Olicity was the cause of the drop then the premiere would've been low because they were pretty much all they promoted all summer. But they got higher ratings than the season 2 premiere. I think the 20% were like me, I was enjoying the premiere than the last scene happened and were like "I'm out".

Edited by Sakura12
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slayer2

slayer2

(edited)

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but to the casual viewer, Felicity ended that relationship at the end of The Calm, so if that was it, there really wasn't any reason to not tune in to Sara, IMO.

I'd not be surprised to hear they tuned out due to the depressing nature of the show and Sara's random death which had zero build-up. Nowadays the world is sad enough, killing someone off in the first ep is a little extreme. That's what got me off Supernatural. Too damned depressing I couldn't take it anymore, life is hard enough and with everything going on in the world right now I'd say the Flash fits the climate far better. I reckon Arrow better give Ollie something to smile about or the numbers could keep diving.

Edited by slayer2
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Orion

Orion

Not necessarily. If you check out the Reddit and IMDB boards that don't have big shipper followings, you will find quite a few complaints about the forced Olicity interaction in the season premiere, so I can see how that could have been a potential turn-off for casual viewers, too.

 

 All summer long the promotion was Olicity and action. That's what was put on the ads that run on TV that the average viewer sees. Oliver asks Felicity on date, action, Roy's suit, hurt Felicity and the Olicity kiss.  If people weren't interested in that they wouldn't have tuned into the first episode.  (In fact there was an attempt to boycott the episode by certain fans because of the Olicity promotion)

 

To go with the theories you mention would imply that people tuned in, saw Olicity, didn't like it, watched them break up and thought, "I'm not tuning back in to this show because a couple I don't like together just ended things and won't be together again for a while."  That doesn't really add up.

 

Look, I get it, I do, some people don't like that couple together. I completely respect that but the problem is that their is evidence out there for both the fans and the network on what is working and what is not. Arrow 2.5 comic sales are off the charts from Season One's comic, they promoted that Olicity would be explored in those comics. That's the only change from the way they promoted the comics in the first year.

 

Felicity has been added to the actual Green Arrow comic and video games. They are not investing money to add her places without hard data saying people will buy it for her.

 

These are three multi-million dollar companies involved (WB, DC, CW) they do focus groups, online data collection, Netflix data collect, Neilsen ratings. They know what is working, as evidenced by how they promote the show, what clips they release, what pictures they use to get likes on their Facebook pages, what images to use to get RTs on twitter. They do not randomly decide to change things and see what happens.

 

Do I think the ratings dipping is interesting, yes. But it's incomplete data. It's one week. It's more interesting that people tuned in watched the first part and decided no I really don't need to watch this. But it is still one episode.

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shadow2008

shadow2008

(edited)

I am a former viewer and I wouldn't blame the ratings drop on a singular event. IMO, casual viewers just want to watch a well-written and well-acted action show and as long as Arrow delivers that, they'll keep tuning in. I can only speak for myself, but even before the writers tossed Sara off a roof, I didn't find the quality of the season premiere particularly good. As it happens so often on this show, the episode was way too crammed leading to a very disjointed feel. The romances on this show continue to suffer from poor development (e.g. when Oliver first asks Felicity out she doesn't even believe that he's serious about it and by the end of the episode she's all "say you never loved me") and the writers rely way too much on retcons and brutal character deaths to get their story across. At this point, it has become fairly obvious to this viewer that they have no writing plan. They are just throwing sht at the wall in the hopes that something, anything is going to stick. The unnecessary fridging of Sara was just the final straw for me.

Edited by shadow2008
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

 

I personally think that the General Audience probably doesn't really care about the romance aspect one way or another. Also, the majority general audience probably has never even heard of Green Arrow before the show & had no idea that Laurel is destined to be Canary. Most of the people I know who watch were surprised & disappointed when they learned Laurel was BC in the comics. In my opinion killing Sara was a big mistake, they could have kept her alive and off the show, bring her in a few times a year. If I had to guess why they lost viewers - aside from just the normal drop from a premier - it'd be that.

I can only speak for myself and the four people I got to watch this show.  Yes, I read comics but I have no loyalty to them, and the other people have never read them.  So we have zero loyalty to Laurel Lance's Black Canary or the Oliver Queen/Laurel Lance relationship.  We tune in purely for the storytelling that is on this show, not looking for comic book canon or the formation of the Justice League (although if I like the characters, that would be a bonus).  It feels like many people who are happy with this development like it because it's following the comic book canon.

 

But if you liked Sara, you'd be upset that it looked like she died at the end of The Calm.  You might tune in for the second episode to see if it's really true because people on this show often aren't really dead.  But once you'd seen that she really is and is in a freezer at Verdant, and that Laurel is going to step into her mask, I can see why people who liked Sara and don't like Laurel would tune out. As apparently 13,000 of them did.  

 

But it's just one episode, for now.

Edited by statsgirl
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ban1o

ban1o

(edited)

During the first season of a show, yes that happens. People dropping off after the first half shouldn't be happening that often during a show's third season. 

Eh it happens for a lot of shows though. If you see the full half hour list you'll see that I mean. I don't think the season really plays a factor. If it was a greater drop then I would agree that people just didn't like the episode but the drop wasn`t THAT big. 

Edited by ban1o
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strikera0

strikera0

 All summer long the promotion was Olicity and action. That's what was put on the ads that run on TV that the average viewer sees. Oliver asks Felicity on date, action, Roy's suit, hurt Felicity and the Olicity kiss.  If people weren't interested in that they wouldn't have tuned into the first episode.  (In fact there was an attempt to boycott the episode by certain fans because of the Olicity promotion)

 

To go with the theories you mention would imply that people tuned in, saw Olicity, didn't like it, watched them break up and thought, "I'm not tuning back in to this show because a couple I don't like together just ended things and won't be together again for a while."  That doesn't really add up.

 

You don't really know for sure that ratings were up because of Olicity, though. Some people stop watching shows live in spring because days are getting longer and return to live-viewing in fall. Others may have seen Arrow/Oliver Queen's cameo in The Flash and decided to give the season 3 premiere of Arrow a shot. There are a lot of variables at play here. Anyways, I didn't say that ratings dropped because of Olicity. All I said was that not everyone found the Olicity interaction in the season 3 premiere believable and that it could have been a potential turn-off for some viewers. Others might have been turned off by the brutal murder of Sara Lance and yet others might have given up because the show's storytelling has seen a general decline since the season 2 midseason break.

 

Viewers decreasing during  a show is common. I wouldn't put too much stock into that tbh.

 

What's potentially alarming about Arrow's continued ratings drop during the hour is that this is an 8PM show. HUT levels generally go up at 8.30PM, so a ratings decrease is rather unusual, but it doesn't have to mean anything. Revolution on NBC always saw a big ratings drop in the second half hour last season, but it never had a bearing on the ratings the following week.

 

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Orion

Orion

You don't really know for sure that ratings were up because of Olicity, though. Some people stop watching shows live in spring because days are getting longer and return to live-viewing in fall. Others may have seen Arrow/Oliver Queen's cameo in The Flash and decided to give the season 3 premiere of Arrow a shot. There are a lot of variables at play here. Anyways, I didn't say that ratings dropped because of Olicity. All I said was that not everyone found the Olicity interaction in the season 3 premiere believable and that it could have been a potential turn-off for some viewers. Others might have been turned off by the brutal murder of Sara Lance and yet others might have given up because the show's storytelling has seen a general decline since the season 2 midseason break.

 

 

Nowhere in my post did I say that Olicity caused a ratings increase though. I never mention ratings increasing at all. The numbers that tuned into the shows premiere were slightly higher than what tuned into S2's first episode and the last episode of S2. Which as you pointed out could have been for a variety of reasons.

 

I said that there was evidence that, despite using heavy promotion of Olicity,  people showed up to watch the first episode and whether they felt it was rushed or not, it ended in 3x01, so it doesn't add up that it would be a cause of ratings decreasing in the second episode. It also doesn't add up that people would have tuned out in the middle of the episode because of Olicity, since there was no overtly romantic scenes in that episode. People tuning out during the show says something about the episode is uninteresting to them.

 

I also said that at the end of my long post that conclusions about why ratings dropped off can't be made yet because we do not have enough data to support any guesses.  If Arrow is still loosing viewers or people are still tuning out halfway through an episode in a few weeks then conclusions might be able to be drawn until then we have one set of numbers to look at.

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TwistedandBored

TwistedandBored

(edited)

Actually some of my sisters & friends who do not read spoilers or interviews were really mad that not only did the show kill Sara but that they ended Olicity again. They felt cheated after seeing those kissing promos. I usually tell them if they want to know abt comic or other Arrow stuff such as ratings, but since I promised not to spoil things for them all I couldn't tell them what was going on. All I could  tell them was "continue watching the show".They did not watch the show last night. Same with my cousin on the west coast, she called & was like "was the episode good?" & I couldn't lie to her so she didn't bother watching. Maybe it does not matter if they watch the show or not but they were viewers that were excited for the show to back and are not now.

Edited by TwistedandBored
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wonderwall

wonderwall

My husband, mom, dad, brother, and sister-in-law are all casual watchers of Arrow (thanks to me :p). Suffice it to say, they were deeply upset about Sara dying. My mom called me up last week and said "I can't believe they killed Sara, why would you kill a more compelling character and leave the obvious hot mess?" I honestly had no answer other than Laurel was BC in the comics for which she answered "That's just a bullshit answer", my dad agreed. My husband, who is more knowledgeable in terms of comics (not very but still), thought the writers made a mistake and couldn't stomach watching this episode because it was obviously Laurel centric (he really, really abhors Laurel and doesn't appreciate her because he's a lawyer as well and he smelled her BS the second he saw her in court way back when in season 1).  And then that leaves my brother and sister-in-law who hated that they pushed Oliver and Felicity so hard only to have them break up. They were more upset about that than Sara. They watched the second episode, hated Laurel and knew that she was about to become a more prominent character for the rest of the series, and I don't think they're going to watch live anymore. 

 

The writers jumped the gun with killing Sara. And I think it shows. 

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icandigit

icandigit

 

he really, really abhors Laurel and doesn't appreciate her because he's a lawyer as well and he smelled her BS the second he saw her in court way back when in season 1

lol. My sister who isn't a lawyer, was pretty much done with Laurel during that same scene. It didn't phase me at all. She does watch alot more crime/court(live and scripted) related stuff then I do. Maybe she just found it too far off the mark.

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