Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[kikaha]

Another thing just occurred to me about Panama (Exile Island).  Aras tried to boot Danielle at F4.  If he had done so, F3 would have been Terry, Aras and Cirie.  Either Aras or Cirie would have won the FIC; Terry again gets the boot.  I suspect Cirie wins that F2.

 

If I'm right, Aras won despite himself.  Wonder how many times that has happened in Survivor?  i.e. where the winner comes out on top, because a key strategy he/she used failed?  Two that come to mind are Aras and Sandra in HvV. 

[BigRedCheese]

I just listened to Rob's re-watch of that season, and that's pretty much what he and Josh Wigler said about Aras winning.

[choclatechip45]

Another thing just occurred to me about Panama (Exile Island). Aras tried to boot Danielle at F4. If he had done so, F3 would have been Terry, Aras and Cirie. Either Aras or Cirie would have won the FIC; Terry again gets the boot. I suspect Cirie wins that F2.

If I'm right, Aras won despite himself. Wonder how many times that has happened in Survivor? i.e. where the winner comes out on top, because a key strategy he/she used failed? Two that come to mind are Aras and Sandra in HvV.

He said after his season and recently on RHAP that his goal was to get him and Cirie to the finals and he was perfectly fine with Cirie winning over him.

[LadyChatts]

I feel like anyone willing to take someone far more likable to the final 2/3 with them and know that person will beat them should be banned from ever playing this game again.  Unless it is someone like Kass who has zero chance of winning, but even then, I would hope she would at least pretend to think she had a chance and take someone unlikable.

Edited June 4, 2015 by LadyChatts

[kikaha]

Did Colby do something like that in season 2, when he chose Tina? 

[LadyChatts]

Pretty much.  It's why when he came back for AS talking a big game, I had to roll my eyes.  He had a chance and would have made a convincing winner then.  He and Tina had some pact from the start that they were going to go to the end with each other, no matter what.  Everyone said he blew his chances by not taking Keith to the end, who nobody liked.  I don't know that Colby was really unlikable, but Tina was more likable and credited for playing a better game (all these years later and I still don't see it).  Keith was (almost) the first official goat.  I'm fuzzy on the details, but I remember the final 5 going on Rosie O'Donnell, and Tina said that they made a deal that whoever won between the two would buy the other one a motorcycle (obviously making such deals was-and I'm assuming still is-a big no no).    

Edited June 5, 2015 by LadyChatts

[KimberStormer]

There was a big enthusiastic prolific poster on TWOP whose name I forget who loved talking strategy and also for some reason loved Aras.  (Which possibly demonstrates a certain contrarianism right there.)  He (I think it was a he) posted a big long post about a certain late-reward toast between Aras and Cirie where Aras said "Final 3!" and Cirie said "Final 2, why you playin'?" and how for some reason this meant that the "legend of Cirie, master Survivor player" was proven FALSE and she had no plan to make it to the end and this proves that Aras was great.  And I was like, "but Aras voted for Danielle..."

 

That guy never posted another thing.  He vanished.  I still feel guilty.  I crushed his Aras-is-better-than-Cirie dream, like killing a butterfly just as it emerged from its cocoon, before it could fly. 

 

But seriously, Aras sucks.  Voting for Danielle there was insane.  She was the only one he could beat in that Final 4.  Cirie had him wrapped around her finger in a beautiful way.  It's one of those things; I wish she had won that fire-making contest, because no matter which alpha-male jackass won the final immunity, they would take Cirie rather than taking the other, and she would be a millionaire with a very well-deserved title of Sole Survivor........BUT then we wouldn't have the astonishing magnificence of her Micronesia game.  So actually I think, though it sucks for Cirie, it was better for us the audience, for Survivor the show, even for Cirie the legend (who had she won Panama, I think, would be really appreciated as a strategist only by the hardcore superfans who were willing to look deeper under her everywoman-turns-jungle-badass edit, and see the unbelievable Survivor mind.)

Edited June 5, 2015 by KimberStormer

[loki567]

Another thing just occurred to me about Panama (Exile Island).  Aras tried to boot Danielle at F4.  If he had done so, F3 would have been Terry, Aras and Cirie.  Either Aras or Cirie would have won the FIC; Terry again gets the boot.  I suspect Cirie wins that F2.

 

If I'm right, Aras won despite himself.  Wonder how many times that has happened in Survivor?  i.e. where the winner comes out on top, because a key strategy he/she used failed?  Two that come to mind are Aras and Sandra in HvV.

 

 

I'm not sure that Aras couldn't have beaten Cirie. I don't think there was anyway that Terry would have voted for her. They got into some bad fights at the end there and Terry built into his head that he some sort of "noble rivalry" with Aras (two reasons I'm not excited to see Terry play again by the way). Terry could potentially have some influence with Sally and Austin, two former tribemates. Not to mention Cirie's best move was the 1-2-3 play that involved screwing over Courtney, who might not be inclined to vote for Cirie after learning that. That's four votes for Aras right there. 

 

I think Cirie would have faced a similar problem that happens with a lot of older (I realize Cirie was 35 during Panama but we're talking about perception here) female players face, trying to lay out your strategic game despite a jury not really being able to see the whole picture and looking at you in a certain way. More as a mother figure than a game player.

[henripootel]

Pretty much.  It's why when he [Colby] came back for AS talking a big game, I had to roll my eyes.

Where, if I recall correctly, he bombed.  Pretty much didn't show up, more like.

 

There is, however, an argument to be made that he came out of season 2 looking good enough to launch a minor career in tv.  I as a fan of Top Shot and he did pretty well hosting it, of course doing his best Jeff Probst imitation.  I always thought he'd be a decent replacement for Probst if Probst retired, kind of a fake Probst.  If his 'honorable loser' badge he got by handing Tina a mill got him this other gig, I'll bet he made more than a million out of it.

[kikaha]

loki, for sure we can never know.  I think Cirie would have given a kick-ass FTC performance, both for the story she could tell about herself, and the way she would tell it.  I think the entire jury would recognize her as the mastermind: she could probably show them, gently but persuasively, how much she controlled Aras' vote much of the season.  And even if she engineered some blindsides, she did not create enemies.  That makes a potent case to rack up jury votes. 

 

My guess/speculation is that she beats everyone at FTC except Terry. 

[choclatechip45]

 

Pretty much.  It's why when he came back for AS talking a big game, I had to roll my eyes.  He had a chance and would have made a convincing winner then.  He and Tina had some pact from the start that they were going to go to the end with each other, no matter what.  Everyone said he blew his chances by not taking Keith to the end, who nobody liked.  I don't know that Colby was really unlikable, but Tina was more likable and credited for playing a better game (all these years later and I still don't see it).  Keith was (almost) the first official goat.  I'm fuzzy on the details, but I remember the final 5 going on Rosie O'Donnell, and Tina said that they made a deal that whoever won between the two would buy the other one a motorcycle (obviously making such deals was-and I'm assuming still is-a big no no).

I remember after season1 you had all these people going on TV saying a female would never win against a male in a final 2 scenario. I think that had more influence on the way final 2 voted in the Outback.

 

 

My guess/speculation is that she beats everyone at FTC except Terry.

I remember Sally didn't seem to be really "in" with the La Mina guys and talked  a lot during the pre merge about jumping ship, I wonder if she would have voted for Terry at the end. Wasn't it Austin who wanted to keep her around?

Edited June 5, 2015 by choclatechip45

[enlightenedbum]

Where, if I recall correctly, he bombed.  Pretty much didn't show up, more like.

 

There is, however, an argument to be made that he came out of season 2 looking good enough to launch a minor career in tv.  I as a fan of Top Shot and he did pretty well hosting it, of course doing his best Jeff Probst imitation.  I always thought he'd be a decent replacement for Probst if Probst retired, kind of a fake Probst.  If his 'honorable loser' badge he got by handing Tina a mill got him this other gig, I'll bet he made more than a million out of it.

Colby was cocky in All-Stars and got stabbed in the back by Lex.  But he was not the useless lump he was in HvV.

[BigRedCheese]

Yeah, I think Colby lost whatever shot he had at being a Probst replacement with his below lackluster performance in HvV.

[LadyChatts]

Colby was such a waste of space for HvsV.  It felt like he was dragged there against his will.  I'm surprised he didn't break the rules and write his own name down.

 

I remember Sally didn't seem to be really "in" with the La Mina guys and talked  a lot during the pre merge about jumping ship, I wonder if she would have voted for Terry at the end. Wasn't it Austin who wanted to keep her around?

 

 

The girls at La Mina were outnumbered after the swap happened (it was Misty, Sally, Ruth Marie, Austin, Nick, Dan, and Terry).  I think they intended to target Sally after getting rid of Misty, because Ruth Marie was more of an easy vote to keep and control.  But Ruth Marie was much weaker and ended up getting sacked instead, though I don't know how much convincing really needed to be done to keep Sally.  Between Terry and Cirie in the end, I could see Cirie pulling the win off.  It would probably be close, but I believe she would have come out on top.

Edited June 5, 2015 by LadyChatts

[enlightenedbum]

Them choosing to vote out Misty still makes me sad.  Super hot aerospace engineer? BOOOOOO

[LadyChatts]

Them choosing to vote out Misty still makes me sad.  Super hot aerospace engineer? BOOOOOO

 

You and me both!  I never understood the logic there.  Way more of a physical asset than Ruth Marie (or even Sally, for that matter), and I believe would have stayed loyal to Terry and the gang.  It's one of the reasons I'm glad La Mina went on a losing streak. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by LadyChatts

[choclatechip45]

The producers were very lucky that all the entertaining people chose each other in te schoolyard pick and dominated the challenges. Exile island would have been such a shitty season if La Mina dominated.

[kikaha]

I just re-watched HvV.  Some reactions:

 

An incredible season.  The level of play -- strategic, social, challenge-wise, and personal -- was off the charts.  While I love Philippines, HvV is my personal #1. 

 

Brutally physical challenges, especially pre-merge.  Several serious injuries, including broken bones, a dislocated shoulder, and bloodied faces.  Often looked like tackle football without helmets, pads or protection of any kind. 

 

Top to bottom, the cast was the most talented in Survivor history. 

 

Even before the season started, the division into 'heroes' and 'villains' was pretty arbitrary.  By the end of the season the lines were so blurred as to be meaningless.

 

Boston Rob was amazing.  Without him, a good chance the villains would have descended into total anarchy.  They would have lost nearly every challenge they ended up winning, gotten Pagonged, and entered merge down about 3 to 7 (at best).  Rob's the one reason that didn't happen.  He also held things together in a camp full of misfits.  Except for one of the worst moves ever (by Tyson), I think he would have gone deep and probably have won the season.

 

In some key ways, Russell was even more amazing.  Kind of a Survivor idiot-savant/force-of-nature.  The savant part: he was very persuasive, repeatedly convincing key players on the other side to flip with him or help him.  He produced some of the most original, out-of-the-box moves, that baffled an entire tribe of All-Stars.  His Survivor instincts are up there with the best; and he never gives up or gives in, no matter how wet, cold or hungry he is.   

 

The idiot part: we all know.  Russell is, at heart, a cruel, selfish person.  He's guaranteed to piss off/hurt/enrage enough players (often with acts that are totally unnecessary for the game), he probably could never achieve his real goal, which is Sole Survivor.  He also has a blind spot among his Survivor instincts, which is why he made the same fatal mistakes his second season, even after knowing he failed in his first.  (And he DID know he failed.  He said so in one of the last episodes of HvV.) 

 

Parv deserved the win.  On a season packed with Hall of Fame players -- that saw some of the most unique, innovative moves in Survivor history -- she played the best, most complete game.  And that was with a target on her back from the minute she stepped on the beach, all the way till she made F3.  While one of my esteemed fellow posters doesn't believe in bitter juries, I do, and feel HvV is a classic example of that.

 

I really liked Sandra.  She was a breath of fresh air, who delivered some of the coolest sound bites of the season.  She also is the luckiest player in Survivor history, who spent most of the game on the sidelines... was fortunate to make merge... failed in her one overriding strategy (to boot Russell)... was unable to convince the heroes she was telling the truth... and won mostly because...

... the heroes who made jury were tools.  Not one of them deserves their tribe's title.  Their jury questions made me want to puke.  It saddened but didn't surprise me to see the final vote. 

 

A question.  I never saw much of Courtney before.  In HvV she looked completely useless.  Yet I know many fans love her.  Can anyone explain her Survivor charm to me?

[SVNBob]

A question.  I never saw much of Courtney before.  In HvV she looked completely useless.  Yet I know many fans love her.  Can anyone explain her Survivor charm to me?

To describe Courtney in terms of Internet memes, she's the honey badger.  She's one of the snarkiest bitches to ever be on the show.  And the fact that she tends to unleash the snark on deserving assholes, like Russell, is very endearing.

 

This page covers many of her highlights.  Most are from her stint in China though, so you may want to watch that season if you haven't already.

[KimberStormer]

Have you ever done that kids' science experiment where you sprinkle black pepper or talcum powder on the surface of a bowl of water, forming a layer over the water, and then add a drop of soap, and the layer splits open and retreats to the sides of the bowl?  Courtney is like the soap, and the pepper is the massive absurd self-seriousness of Survivor.  Sort of like Greg in season 1 but less bitter about it, she cuts through the bullshit: calls Survivor a "game show" like it was Match Game or Hollywood Squares, which of course it is; is unimpressed with Jeff and especially the other players' histrionics over the game--she knows losing Survivor does not mean anything bad happens to you whatsoever and getting super emotionally involved in it is silly.  (She came in expecting to be voted out first because she's tiny and weak, just to get the free China vacation.)  And she is hilarious, expressive, charming, smart.  If she's useless, she's useless in the way that great art is useless.  I think we don't need a ton of Courtneys--probably a show where everyone realized "it's all just a game show" would not be so fun.  But to have someone like that now and again (like Penner, like Jenn) is delightful, and Courtney is surely the greatest, funniest, snarkiest, most penetrating of these Survivor court jesters.

 

You should definitely watch China!  It's a great season, sort of the classical ideal of Survivor in a lot of ways--I don't want to say generic but somehow archetypical.  A great cast, a great location.  And to complete your Courtney education, you must watch (if it's still anywhere to be found) the entire HvV Ponderosa series.  I agree with you on the greatness of HvV, but I would say that if there is one category where that season truly towers over all others, it is actually in Ponderosa, and it is all Courtney's doing.  You have to watch Coach's videos--you can see he was teetering on an edge, ready to be angry and turn Ponderosa into a grim and dismal place of bitter and sour people, but then in comes Courtney, and the magic of her so thoroughly not giving a fuck--you might call it a cheerful Zen detachment--transforms the place into THE BEST THING EVER.

Edited June 10, 2015 by KimberStormer

[loki567]

 

But to have someone like that now and again (like Penner, like Jenn) is delightful, and Courtney is surely the greatest, funniest, snarkiest, most penetrating of these Survivor court jesters.

 

Think you're completely right about Courtney, I do disagree about Penner. He's got a sense of humor, but I think Penner also takes the game very serious. That dichotomy is part of what makes him such a great character. The same guy who can regularly take the piss out of Jeff and insult other cast members during competitions, would still be near tears when medievaced or go slightly insane when dealing with the fratboy hijinks of the Raros.

 

Penner would probably play 10 times if they let him. And he's lose 10 times in slightly stupid, but fascinating to watch ways. Always one of my favorite characters. . 

[BigRedCheese]

 

Parv deserved the win.

 

Parv is the one I was pulling for, and who I would have voted for if I had a vote, I was bummed she didn't win too. For me though, I always feel that whoever won deserved it because they got the jury to vote for them. I see the jury vote as an entirely personal thing, and even if someone ends up asking them to pick a number, and votes based on that, I'm ok with that (I actually like that, it's fun to see the expressions on the finalists faces. But if your going to do that, there needs to be a qualifier of whoever gets closest without going over, otherwise it's too easy for the second person that picks). 

[choclatechip45]

I don't believe in bitter juries. I think people vote who they will sleep easier at night loosing too. I know Candice apologized in Survivor Live to Parvati during BvW and said she was too harsh.

[Skeeter22]

Parvati's social game, which is usually her strength, was apparently atrocious that season. Maybe it was Russell's influence, but you can't be obnoxious to the entire jury and expect them to give you the money. It's just common sense. I think they also made the fatal mistake of underestimating Sandra, who is really good in front of a jury. They never should have let her get that far, she won before for a reason.

[kikaha]

 I always feel that whoever won deserved it because they got the jury to vote for them.

 

Logically, rationally, I agree with you 100%.  I still can't shake my deep-rooted belief that Parv got the screws put to her, and should have won that season. 

Oh, also, Parvati did not underestimate Sandra at all.  Russell's mental illness prevented him from seeing things through the jury's eyes, though. 

[Skeeter22]

Parvati chose to attach herself to Russell, someone she really couldn't control in the end. She sunk herself. If she'd lucked out again like in Micronesia and ended up with a final two, she would have won. I think she's an excellent player, but she's hardly perfect. If she'd played a better social game, she might have beaten Sandra. Parvati and Russell's terrible social game created that bitter jury. Sometimes players are handicapped by things they can't control, like older women getting beat up for being cutthroat. That wasn't the case with Parvati and Russell. Russell you can almost excuse, because he is incapable of being anything but a hateful troll. Parvati knows how to win, she just didn't do it that season.

[enlightenedbum]

 

I really liked Sandra.  She was a breath of fresh air, who delivered some of the coolest sound bites of the season.  She also is the luckiest player in Survivor history, who spent most of the game on the sidelines... was fortunate to make merge... failed in her one overriding strategy (to boot Russell)... was unable to convince the heroes she was telling the truth... and won mostly because...

She manipulated the hell out of Russell to make the merge.  And importantly is apparently the most lovable I will cut your throat and not give a shit about it (and probably actively insult you while doing it) person in the show's history, considering her double win.

[vb68]

 

She manipulated the hell out of Russell to make the merge.

 

 

It was Sandra all by herself who got Coach voted off by manipulating Russell.  It was very amusing to me that Russell believed her hook, line, and sinker without questioning her motives at all.

 

Even in her original season, several of her cast said they had no idea what a player Sandra was until they watched the show.  She's very stealth.

 

 I contend that she deserved the win because she played that jury like a fiddle and there was nothing Parv could do  except kinda go "me too."  (Again, saying she kept Russell as a pet was hilarious).  But Sandra knew exactly what that jury wanted to hear.  Saying she would have intercepted that idol and given it back was a particular master stroke IMO.   

 

That's the failure of Russell's game in my view too.  He expects it to be a coronation that he played the best and doesn't understand how to sell himself to a jury.  I genuinely think Danielle was trying to help him there with her question and gather him some support.  But he bit her head off and snarled that he wasn't going to tell her what she wanted to hear. And Danielle replied that really was unfortunate and sat down. 

[Skeeter22]

Sandra's "I'll write your name down again and you'll still give me the million dollars" vote for Rupert is basically her game in a nutshell. She always understands the people she's playing with, and her standing among them. It's like in Pearl Islands when Lill said Sandra blew up at people and called them "m-f-ers" and the jury just laughed. Sandra being upfront and in people's faces is one of her biggest assets.

[henripootel]

That's the failure of Russell's game in my view too.  He expects it to be a coronation that he played the best and doesn't understand how to sell himself to a jury.

For my money the biggest difference between Sandra and Russell is that Sandra plays the other players and Russell plays the producers.  Russell makes for excellent tv, much as I dislike him and enjoy watching him lose.  I bet he gets lavish praise and attention from producers which contributes to his certainty (and I think he really is certain) that he's great at Survivor.  Which make it all the more perplexing for him that he keeps losing.  Why?  He explains to the jury that he beat them all and they gotta respect that, right?  Uh, no, they don't.  Jeff might vote for you but Jeff doesn't get a vote.

 

Sandra is just the opposite, not scintillating to watch but very good at making it possible for people to live with themselves while voting for her.  This, for me, speaks to the heart of the 'bitter jury' thing - everyone is pissed that they're on the jury and out of the running, but nobody is entitled to votes just because they think they are.  Nobody 'deserves' the votes so nobody is 'cheated' when folks don't vote for people they hate, the hated person is simply bad at helping jury members see past this (and hence bad at Survivor).  I'd be curious to know what Sandra thinks about playing to the camera (and production) and what that costs come jury time. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by henripootel

[enlightenedbum]

Sandra's not shy about playing to the cameras.  She smirks more at the camera during filming on the beach than probably any other player.  She's just not playing to the cameras in ways that are obvious to her fellow competitors.

[SVNBob]

Sandra's ... just not playing to the cameras in ways that are obvious to her fellow competitors.

Exactly like her game.  Ironically, subtlety is one of her strengths.

[vb68]

I keep thinking about her confessional at the tail end of the game, I think right before they vote Jerri off, where she said to the camera that Russell was keeping her because she wouldn't get any votes and then added with her sly grin, "But I don't know about that!"   She already knew that she was golden when she got to the jury.  And I don't think anybody else saw that going in to it.

[KimberStormer]

I would never say Sandra is bad TV.  She's amazing TV.  I've often said that she had the most epic winner quotes ever in HvV--above mentioned, "I'll write down your name and you'll still give me your million-dollar vote", "Russell thinks I won't get any votes...but I don't know about that!" and also, for example, "That's how I hustle, I come on Survivor, I get my money, I go home."  I've said before that I think Sandra is constitutionally the absolute ideal Survivor player, despite the ideal in people's mind being more like Tom Westman or something--everybody likes her (she's so funny and real), but nobody realizes that everyone else likes her too (she's so blunt and foul-mouthed).  So you keep her around because you think she won't get any votes and she's nicer to have around than a Philip or a Coach, and the more shit she talks, the more rude and honest she is, the more you're seeing golden dollar signs in your mind, and then she wins.

 

Think you're completely right about Courtney, I do disagree about Penner. He's got a sense of humor, but I think Penner also takes the game very serious. That dichotomy is part of what makes him such a great character. The same guy who can regularly take the piss out of Jeff and insult other cast members during competitions, would still be near tears when medievaced or go slightly insane when dealing with the fratboy hijinks of the Raros.

 

Penner would probably play 10 times if they let him. And he's lose 10 times in slightly stupid, but fascinating to watch ways. Always one of my favorite characters. . 

 

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest Penner doesn't care, just that he too is deeply aware that Survivor is a TV show, with all that implies.  I remember in Philippines when they had to grab stuff and get off the boat quickly, and Jeff was like "you gotta be off this boat in 3 minutes!" but Penner asked (as he was hustling stuff off the boat) "or what happens, Jeff?" and Jeff had no answer.  Because people just assume the dire consequences, which the producers therefore didn't even bother to think of, and Penner wanted to poke him about it.

[LadyChatts]

That is exactly why I love Penner.

[henripootel]

I would never say Sandra is bad TV.  She's amazing TV.

I would agree but this depends on who you ask.  She eschews the 'big moves' nonsense that Probst loves so I (and apparently others) think she gets short shrift when it comes to the list of 'great Survivor players'.  She's allowed the odd (and excellent) quip but only after we endure 100 THs of Russell saying 'I'm the greatest!' over and over.

I've said before that I think Sandra is constitutionally the absolute ideal Survivor player,

I honestly don't think there's an argument to be had for this.  She's 2-0 - those are Jordan numbers in this world.  And yet again, Sandra is discussed, if she is at all, in such hallowed company as B-Rob who (love him or not) took 4 tries to win at all, and even then, uh, 'benefitted greatly from windage' shall we say. 

 

I know, I know - they have a show to put on so Jeff lavishes praise on those who aid most in this endeavor, and merely winning isn't necessarily 'Survivor gold'.  It just solidifies for me how large a part production plays not only during the seasons (with edits, return invites, and 'fan favorite' stuff) but also after.  Jeff goes to some effort to pretend that the game's goals and perceptions are the same as production's goals and perceptions.  They're not, but I will say I'm impressed at how good he is as at convincing much of his fanbase that they are.  

Edited June 7, 2015 by henripootel

[enlightenedbum]

 

I've said before that I think Sandra is constitutionally the absolute ideal Survivor player, despite the ideal in people's mind being more like Tom Westman or something

In my repeated trials theory of Survivor, I think Sandra is dumped early in a significant number of those trials because she possesses almost literally no athleticism.  So I would say the ideal is closer to Kim.  But it's definitely a woman between like 27 and 35.  The Toms are way too threatening.

[vb68]

 

I think Sandra is dumped early in a significant number of those trials because she possesses almost literally no athleticism.

 

I think one reason I like her so much is she backs up my belief that challenge wins are so often overvalued and overrated.   They are part of the game, but for me they pale to the social and strategic aspects.

 

That's also a big reason I don't care for players like Terry, who I found very one note and rather boring disregarding his personalty.

[Hera]

Another thing that works in Sandra's favor in Survivor is that she is an excellent liar. No one ever questions what she says because she's so forthright and willing to insult people to their faces. Everyone seems to have the mentality of, "But Sandra wouldn't lie to me."

 

In my repeated trials theory of Survivor, I think Sandra is dumped early in a significant number of those trials because she possesses almost literally no athleticism.

I'm not so sure about this. I think she'd go home some of the time, certainly, and I would never deny that luck is a major part of Survivor—it would be insane to argue anything else. But I think Sandra could get by on a tribe that didn't win the first few immunity challenges because I doubt she'd sit back and let the "we need to keep the tribe strong" mentality take over. She bought Courtney three more days in Heroes vs. Villains by telling Russell that Coach was gunning for him. That type of lie is even more powerful on Day 3 (assuming you can sell it, which I think Sandra definitely has the ability to do), when alliances haven't been tested yet.

[enlightenedbum]

It's hard to say, since both her tribes were fairly dominant early.  The Villains only had to boot a cantankerous old man who didn't (to the best of my knowledge) participate in any of the off show cast stuff before Tyson booted himself.  And in Pearl Islands they didn't lose until they threw a challenge.  Give Sandra 12 days to establish herself and put her team up in numbers and athleticism becomes less of an emphasis (to people who are not Coach).  If they lose the first challenge?  I think Sandra would be a tempting target as soon as you were down in the numbers.

Edited June 8, 2015 by enlightenedbum

[Trick Question]

In a random Survivor game, you're right that Sandra would be an early target if everyone was just 'keeping the tribe strong.'  In HvV, however, the experienced cast knew that the game was really about keeping those loyal to you, so big threats (Tom, Cirie, Steph) and outliers (Randy, Sugar) were eliminated early.  On the Villains tribe, I'm sure it helped that Sandra was familiar with and friendly with Rob and Jerri from all their old-school Survivor get-togethers, and obviously she and Courtney got on famously, so she had an easy in right away.  It's very true that challenge performance in Survivor is only really important in the first couple of votes, when a tribe is trying to win as many immunities as possible.  The longer you go, however, challenge dominance puts a big target on your back.

 

everybody likes her (she's so funny and real), but nobody realizes that everyone else likes her too (she's so blunt and foul-mouthed).  So you keep her around because you think she won't get any votes and she's nicer to have around than a Philip or a Coach, and the more shit she talks, the more rude and honest she is, the more you're seeing golden dollar signs in your mind, and then she wins.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Sandra's reputation as a shit-talker is somewhat overstated, as it seems the only ones she openly badmouths are the ones the tribe already hates (Russell and Fairplay).  Everyone else, she saves her mockery for the confessionals or other private moments.  It boggles the mind that Sandra was considered a 'villain' when everyone I knew loved her for ripping on the hated Jonny Fairplay for an entire season.

[choclatechip45]

 

In a random Survivor game, you're right that Sandra would be an early target if everyone was just 'keeping the tribe strong.'  In HvV, however, the experienced cast knew that the game was really about keeping those loyal to you, so big threats (Tom, Cirie, Steph) and outliers (Randy, Sugar) were eliminated early.  On the Villains tribe, I'm sure it helped that Sandra was familiar with and friendly with Rob and Jerri from all their old-school Survivor get-togethers, and obviously she and Courtney got on famously, so she had an easy in right away.  It's very true that challenge performance in Survivor is only really important in the first couple of votes, when a tribe is trying to win as many immunities as possible.  The longer you go, however, challenge dominance puts a big target on your back.

Sandra said she didn't know Rob or Jerri before Heroes vs Villains. I do believe her since Pearl Islands was airing while All-Stars was filiming and after All-Stars Rob & Amber were apparently too cool to hang out with any Survivors and Jerri distanced herself due to the whole Reunion debacle. Sandra said the only people she knew was Candice and Rupert (who she hadn't seen or talked to in years).

Edited June 8, 2015 by choclatechip45

[Jersey Guy 87]

Think you're completely right about Courtney, I do disagree about Penner. He's got a sense of humor, but I think Penner also takes the game very serious. That dichotomy is part of what makes him such a great character. The same guy who can regularly take the piss out of Jeff and insult other cast members during competitions, would still be near tears when medievaced or go slightly insane when dealing with the fratboy hijinks of the Raros.

 

Penner would probably play 10 times if they let him. And he's lose 10 times in slightly stupid, but fascinating to watch ways. Always one of my favorite characters. . 

 

I agree that Penner takes the game much, much more seriously than Courtney.  But I've never understood the Penner love - to me, he's a flawed player who always finds a way to lose.  He always seems to be playing a character to me.

[choclatechip45]

Yeah I never understood the Penner love either. Plus he really annoyed me with his Rhap appearance during Blood vs Water he seemed really bitter his him and son wasn't cast for it. It really annoyed me because it would have been his fourth time playing and third without the medical evacuation.

I really do love Courtney she cracked me up the tribal council were Jeff kept asking her why they voted off Boston rob and she goes I didn't vote him off ask the people who did.

Edited June 8, 2015 by choclatechip45

[Lamb18]

I liked Penner quite well in the Philippines (first full season I watched) until the jury speeches where he called Denise a bitch. That seemed to come out of nowhere and I can't help wondering if he did that because he thought it would get her sympathy votes. Or maybe he was just that mad at her. But he started his speech calmly enough, but then just called her a bitch.

[enlightenedbum]

Both of Penner's jury performances were highly theatrical.  And then he voted for the person he was most harshly attacking.

[vb68]

I halfway expected him to start singing "you take the good...you take the bad" to Lisa.

[Donny Ketchum]

Both of Penner's jury performances were highly theatrical.  And then he voted for the person he was most harshly attacking.

Not true.  With Yul, yes.  But if that were true in Philippines, either Skupin or Lisa would've gotten his vote, because I've always felt like he was harsher with them than he was with Denise.

[kikaha]

I don't believe in bitter juries.

 

Yet as you pointed out, Candice later apologized to Parvati for attacking her at FTC (and by extension voting for Sandra).  Candice pretty well said that was based on hearsay and wrong impressions.       

 

Also, on RHAP, Amanda ruefully admitted she voted for Sandra to win because someone told her Parvati said something bad about her. 

 

This ties in with what I think happened in HvV.  The heroes were pissed -- bitter -- that Parvati outplayed, outwitted and was a major force in booting all of them.  They were only too glad to vote against her, not based on what actually happened, but gossip.  I'd be shocked if they didn't huddle together at Ponderosa to work out how they would vote. 

 

Colby got booted at F5.  If he had made F3, my guess is the heroes would have given him their votes.  What a joke that would be.  Instead they voted for their honorary hero, Sandra, who didn't take the lead in bouncing any of them, and actually wanted to align with them. 

 

I believe there was more to Coach's boot than "Sandra duped Russell."  Sandra got the ball rolling.  But Russell ended up changing his mind: he did not vote to boot Coach.  He voted to boot Courtney. 

 

Coach got sent home because of Parvati.  Once his name came up, she saw the opportunity to toss a big rival.  Coach had targeted her from day one, was unhappy with the villains, was flip-flopping back and forth about twice a day, enraged with Russell (what Sandra told Russell was basically true) and dreamed of aligning with Rupert and Colby.  All excellent reasons to eliminate him, given the chance. 

 

Booting Coach brought another big benefit to Parv.  It cemented in place the heroes' delusion about the women's alliance.  It was the final trigger that convinced them to give Russell the idol. 

 

Sandra nearly got booted around then anyway.  Next episode was touch and go between Courtney and her.  So while she did take the first step to save one of them, that fit beautifully in with Parv's plans anyway... didn't end up working on Russell... and almost didn't save her from elimination one boot later. 

 

A few more thoughts about HvV:

 

Rupert was a complete tool/hypocrite.  I was real glad when he finally got voted out.  Did he really break his toe?  He sure seemed mobile enough later on, in one challenge after another. 

 

Many of the challenges were too physical.  Did Survivor tone down on that in later seasons, due to the injuries suffered in HvV?

 

On re-watching the season, I appreciate Sandra a bit more.  My overall view has not changed though: that Parv played a much better game, against far worse odds, 'deserved' the win, and Sandra fell into it through incredible fortune, the idiot-savant Russell and bruised egos among the heroes. 

[vb68]

 

The heroes were pissed -- bitter -- that Parvati outplayed, outwitted and was a major force in booting all of them.  They were only too glad to vote against her, not based on what actually happened, but gossip.

 

But Sandra knew how to expertly play into that.  And Parv  just didn't play it as well with the jury.   I believe Sandra won it at the jury.  Nobody thought she had a shot.  Colby kinda snidely rubbed that in right before he got voted off.  I don't believe the heroes huddled together and decided beforehand, but it's  neither here nor there.  We will probably never know either way.

 

 

But Russell ended up changing his mind: he did not vote to boot Coach.  He voted to boot Courtney.

 I disagree there.  I don't think he changed his mind at all.  He knew there were enough votes to boot Coach, and that looked to me like his half-assed way of trying to get Coach's vote later on for the win.  

 

 

Rupert was a complete tool/hypocrite.

Well nothing new there.  I remember Stephenie's exit interviews from that season talking about what a letdown and disappointment it was finally meeting the Great Rupert.  He was a prima donna off camera and all he wanted to talk about was all the free stuff and sponsorships and whatnot he was going to get from being on the show again.

Edited June 9, 2015 by vb68