Past Seasons Talk: The Tribe Has Spoken

[henripootel]

The editors made that all about Brandon and his feelings.  He gave yet another one of his "Waaaahhhh!  I don't wanna be Uncle Russell!" confessionals.

That was bad enough, but I still think that Probst's handling of Brandon's meltdown was one of the worst things I've ever seen on this show.  For once I actually believe that somebody came genuinely unhinged, not merely crybabyitis or playing their character.  He should have been whisked swiftly and silently away.

 

In other news, I've started watching Fiji.  Jeez - one team gets luxury accommodation up to and including a goddamn sofa and the other team gets nothing, and the nothings drop like flies.  Fuck did they think would happen?  Was there ever a 'twist' this stupid?  I know a have-nothing eventually wins but this rivals the 'fighting racism by making races fight each other' season.  

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Was there ever a 'twist' this stupid?

No, and as you said (and I said and everyone who ever watched it said) it was completely predictable the that haves would kill it over the have-nots up unto the merge.  DUUUH.   By contrast the Amazing Race War season ended up being very funny in an extremely cynical way - in that any kind of genuine  ethnic loyalty went completely out the window once a million dollars was up for grabs.  Also funny and predicable that the White tribe was the group most appalled and uncomfortable with the racial division of the teams.

 

ETA: apparently my fingers are typing from Bizarro World opposite day.

Edited July 10, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[ljenkins782]

So I'm down to watching One World as the last season I haven't seen yet and have to congratulate Colton on being the very first infamous Survivor to truly live up to their horrible reputation. All of the other villains (Kass, NaOnka, Brandon) were not quite as bad as I expected or at least had layers to them, but Colton is absolutely vile. I have no idea what his issue with Bill is and I really don't understand why the tribe let Colton talk them into going to tribal and getting rid of Bill. 

[BigRedCheese]

I don't understand why Bill went along with going to tribal, Jeff said it had to be a unanimous decision. I know he was going with the group, but still, he should have just said no, it's stupid to go to tribal if we don't have to. I've never re-watched though, so maybe I'm forgetting something.

Edited July 22, 2015 by BigRedCheese

[ljenkins782]

I don't understand why Bill went along with going to tribal, Jeff said it had to be a unanimous decision. I know he was going with the group, but still, he should have just said no, it's stupid to go to tribal if we don't have to. I've never re-watched though, so maybe I'm forgetting something.

Shit, I just watched it and I'm not 100% sure either. I don't think they really showed the process of how they arrived at the decision, they seemed to skip from Colton floating the idea to 2-3 people, several of whom were shocked and didn't seem on board. 

 

The only reason I can think of for Bill to not put up a huge fuss is that going into it, they were saying Leif was going. Tarzan made a huge (and odd) speech about Leif betraying them all (by telling Bill he was a target, I think?) and how Leif had to pay for his crime by being voted out immediately. Leif seemed to respond in a Palau Ian-like manner and accept being voted out in order to show the guys his integrity..or something? 

 

The whole thing was really confusing. 

[KimberStormer]

That's my memory of it, some extraordinarily poor acting by Tarzan and Leif, somehow fooling Bill into expecting Leif would be going home.  Presumably everyone thought someone else would be going home, which is why they all agreed; Bill didn't have the pulse of the tribe, which is his fault but hardly unheard of.  Blindsides happen fairly frequently (though less than Jeff would have you believe.)  People step out of challenges to eat food and get voted out, etc.

[BigRedCheese]

Survivor Oz has an interview with Gretchen from the first season up, it was so great to finally hear from her again after all these years. She said they have called her 3 times over the years, and asked if she would be interested in coming back, she said she said yes each time, but then never heard anything again. One of them was Blood vs. Water, which she said she really wishes she could have played because her daughter would be great on the show. 

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Survivor Oz has an interview with Gretchen from the first season up, it was so great to finally hear from her again after all these years

Thanks so much, BigRedCheese.  The first season Survivors are so different by definition from any of the later season Survivors - Gretchen was one I was hoping would come back for the next season.

[bafleyanne]

I have been spending some time this summer watching old seasons on Hulu to keep from being bored while knitting. I have to say, I do think Fiji is an underrated season.  That have/have not twist was atrocious, but overall, there were some interesting and likeable people on that season. I am surprised Michelle, in particular, has never been asked back.  Have they ever reused that "Battleship" style challenge they did in that season? I thought it was pretty fun to watch.

 

About halfway through China now.  What an interesting season, with all the twists and turns.  And of course getting to see James is always a plus.....

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I am surprised Michelle, in particular, has never been asked back.

You and me both.  I always liked her and can only speculate that she was asked but doesn't want to do it. Hope she does return at some point.

[Ms Blue Jay]

James is one of my all time favourite contestants.  Always great for a soundbite, and so sexy too.

[bafleyanne]

James is one of my all time favourite contestants.  Always great for a soundbite, and so sexy too.

 

That scene where they win the bath/shower reward. I have to admit to some inappropriate thoughts watching his back. ;)

[LadyChatts]

Survivor Oz has an interview with Gretchen from the first season up, it was so great to finally hear from her again after all these years. She said they have called her 3 times over the years, and asked if she would be interested in coming back, she said she said yes each time, but then never heard anything again. One of them was Blood vs. Water, which she said she really wishes she could have played because her daughter would be great on the show. 

 

Thank you for this!  Gretchen always seemed like a production favorite, and I figured she had to have been asked back at least once, but that she probably turned them down.  She just seemed like someone that was fine doing it once.  Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't bring her back if she was willing.  It's nice seeing some of the older contestants come out of the woodwork lately.  Personally, I would have much rather seen Gretchen and her daughter vs Tina and Katie (never was that big a fan of Tina to begin with).  I really wish, for the second chance season, they included more contestants from the older seasons. 

 

My like for James was clouded after HvsV, so it's hard for me to remember liking him as much as I did.  But he was good for some sound bites.  I'll always remember Tod's confessional when they were blindsiding him ("if this doesn't work I'm scared for my life").  I wish they still had the old Ponderosa clips up, because the Micronesia finale when Parvati and Amanda joined everyone, James was a riot in that one, commenting on Ozzy/Amanda's make out and he was doing some weird dance moves behind Parvati.  China was a good season, and I would love to see Aaron in particular get another chance to come back.  I liked Jaime and Erik, too.

 

I have been spending some time this summer watching old seasons on Hulu to keep from being bored while knitting. I have to say, I do think Fiji is an underrated season.  That have/have not twist was atrocious, but overall, there were some interesting and likeable people on that season. I am surprised Michelle, in particular, has never been asked back.  Have they ever reused that "Battleship" style challenge they did in that season? I thought it was pretty fun to watch.

 

 

I've re-watched Fiji a few times, and I don't think it's as bad as when it first aired.  It could be the crap fests to come make it seem good.  From a cast perspective, I enjoyed them.  There were some good characters that season, even some of the pre-jury boots.  Regardless of what production thinks of it, it does surprise me a little that Yau-Man is the only one whose been back (I think Earle was asked but either declined or was cut).

Edited July 26, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ratgirlagogo]

 

personally, I would have much rather seen Gretchen and her daughter vs Tina and Katie 

Agreed.

Edited July 25, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[BK1978]

I would LOVE to see Danni again. Her original tribe decimated and she works her butt off to win challenges when she needed too and went on to win the whole thing. All the while staying a big sweetheart.

 

I really want to see Kim again. See how she would play with castaways that saw how much she just dominated her rookie season.

 

Took this quote from the media section thread because my reply does not really have anything to do with media.  Anyway, I would love to see a return season with Danni vs. Kim (Much like they had Rob vs. Russell).  Or really any two female players who have proven to be great players. 

 

I would also like to see Hatch come back one more time.  Yes I know he is a loathsome person but I would love to see how he would handle the game now.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I would also like to see Hatch come back one more time.  Yes I know he is a loathsome person but I would love to see how he would handle the game now.

I just can't imagine him being anything other than the first boot at this point, no matter what game he tried to play.

[LadyChatts]

Given the stink Hatch caused because of his tax problems and trying to pin that mess on TPTB, I would be very surprised if they ever invited him back.  And it goes back to, you feel like the show did you that wrong, but you'd be willing to come back and bask in the glory of their show?  

 

I feel like an all winners season isn't entirely out of the question down the road, but it would be telling whether Hatch was a part of that or not (and if he was purposely excluded, you know he'll have something to say about it).  As Dan learned this season, you don't bite the hand the feeds you.  Complain about certain aspects of the show all you want, but directly insult TPTB and they'll bite back. 

 

I know Danni said several times the only way she would return is if there ever was an all winner season; she said she feels like she had nothing to prove in a regular season, and her winning might make her a target if she was mixed in with people that hadn't done as well.  I just want to see someone from Guatemala represent!  I enjoyed Danni, and though her game was a quiet one, I considered her victory well earned.  I'd love to see her, Kim, Denise, and Natalie playing together.  And I would also throw Vee into that mix.  I saw Marquesas brought up quite a bit in this thread, and that was a favorite season of mine anyway, so I went through and started re-watching it.  I'm up to Zoe's boot, and while I still think Neleh was deserving of a victory, I kind of realized how much I underestimated Vee.

Edited July 27, 2015 by LadyChatts

[BigRedCheese]

 

Gretchen always seemed like a production favorite, and I figured she had to have been asked back at least once, but that she probably turned them down.  She just seemed like someone that was fine doing it once.

 

Definitely, she's not one of those fame chasers, desperate to come back, but she's also down for an adventure, so she's willing if they want her on. She said that Richard Hatch was really the only one that understood what the show was all about, she used to do survival training in the Air Force, and she thought it would be more about the survival aspect. I know I was heartbroken when she missed making the jury by one vote, I just adored her, I don't think she knows how many fans she has, she seemed surprised when the host told her she's near the top of Survivor polls for returnees. It's a great interview, she had some interesting tidbits to share, she said Bibi hated it, and at one point demanded a phone so he could schedule a helicopter to get him the hell out of there, Burnett said he could leave anytime he wanted, but they had to be able to film it. She said she continued watching the show after her season until some girls took their clothes off for peanut butter and chocolate, then turned it off and hasn't watched it since, lol.

 

I'm excited to see Kelly Wigglesworth back in Second Chances, but listening to her interviews, she still doesn't seem to get the game, she still has a hard time with the idea of alliances, Gretchen said she would like another chance to play now that she understands the game better, I would love to see that. She hosts a radio show in her city, and apparently just got a twitter account, that almost makes me want to get on twitter...almost.

[LadyChatts]

When I think about these AS seasons (whatever format they are), I'm actually surprised the lack of rep season 1 has had.  I mean, aside from being the first season, these were people who really went into this game without a clue of what they were getting into.  No idols, twists, tribe swaps (did they even know in advance there would be a merge?), only Rich and Joel seemed to understand what it was going to take to succeed (unfortunately for Joel, his tribe wanted nothing to do with alliances or his plans to move them forward-would have been interesting to see him and Rich together on the same tribe that season).  And it had probably one of the more distinctive groups of castaways compared to some future seasons that were like a casting call of wannabe mactors.  I remember David Letterman, during the finale, likened the final 4 of Borneo to the Village People.  I would even go for seeing Sean "creator of the superpole and totally oblivious with my ABC voting strategy" Kennif again.  I remember B.B. asking to get voted off, and how he was angry when one of his tribe mates (Greg) voted for I think Ramona  over him.  He still got his wish, though.  I also remember Gretchen saying that she thought it was going to be way more survival related, and having that count, over alliances and strategy.  Probably why Pagong failed so miserably.  Without Rich, sometimes I wonder how that season would have gone.  Surely someone else out there would have figured out that having a voting bloc was a smart idea.

 

I didn't know that Gretchen hosted a radio show.  I was actually surprised she did a lot of post-Survivor appearances and guest spots because, again, she seemed fine leaving the limelight behind and returning to her normal life out of the spotlight.  Though I agree, she didn't seem like she was trying to make a career out of it like some of the others.  More like along for the ride while she could.  Kelly was never a part of a lot of that, which kind of surprised me.  I do wonder how Kelly will fare this season.  She didn't seem overly enthusiastic like some of the others, but she did put herself up for the vote, so she must have wanted it to some degree.  She could be someone's unwilling goat, if she doesn't want to form an alliance but somehow her vote gets used to benefit an actual alliance, or be considered too much of a risky liability.  I remember Kelly saying being in an alliance was something she wouldn't do again, but really, how can you not have alliances in this game?  And most times, they end up falling apart along the way as it is anyway.  I don't know, I think she just wanted to be back and thinks either she'll be able to dominate in challenges, others will be bigger targets than her, or just to be able to say she came back and be done with it, no matter how she does.  

Edited July 27, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I also remember Gretchen saying that she thought it was going to be way more survival related

I remember Greg saying much the same thing.  When Mr Rat and I first tuned in, that's what we thought it was going to be also - probably most people did.  In a lot of ways it was presented as kind of shock TV - "who will survive, and what will be left of them?"

[BK1978]

Given the stink Hatch caused because of his tax problems and trying to pin that mess on TPTB, I would be very surprised if they ever invited him back.  And it goes back to, you feel like the show did you that wrong, but you'd be willing to come back and bask in the glory of their show?  

 

I feel like an all winners season isn't entirely out of the question down the road, but it would be telling whether Hatch was a part of that or not (and if he was purposely excluded, you know he'll have something to say about it).  As Dan learned this season, you don't bite the hand the feeds you.  Complain about certain aspects of the show all you want, but directly insult TPTB and they'll bite back. 

 

I know Danni said several times the only way she would return is if there ever was an all winner season; she said she feels like she had nothing to prove in a regular season, and her winning might make her a target if she was mixed in with people that hadn't done as well.  I just want to see someone from Guatemala represent!  I enjoyed Danni, and though her game was a quiet one, I considered her victory well earned.  I'd love to see her, Kim, Denise, and Natalie playing together.  And I would also throw Vee into that mix.  I saw Marquesas brought up quite a bit in this thread, and that was a favorite season of mine anyway, so I went through and started re-watching it.  I'm up to Zoe's boot, and while I still think Neleh was deserving of a victory, I kind of realized how much I underestimated Vee.

 

I thought he was supposed to do Redemption Island and could not go because of his probation and so Rob replaced him.  Which if that is the case TPTB did want him back even after all the stuff he pulled and they may still want him back.

[LadyChatts]

I thought he was supposed to do Redemption Island and could not go because of his probation and so Rob replaced him.  Which if that is the case TPTB did want him back even after all the stuff he pulled and they may still want him back.

 

Didn't know that about RI (after the HvsV reunion, I assumed it was already set up for Rob/Russell to return, without offering it to anyone else).  Which makes me think that maybe I'm wrong in believing RI was entirely set up for Rob to get a stupid win, and that that season may not have turned out so craptastic after all if anyone but Rob/Russell had been the returnees.  However, I did forget Hatch was offered an HvsV slot (and I believe FvsF?) but wasn't allowed to leave the country.  So I guess TPTB wouldn't completely diss him by not allowing him to return.  But it goes back to one of my other points, if Rich felt so wronged by them, to the point where he was even calling out Kelly, why would he want to return to the very people he thinks screwed him over?  Not that I ever believed his story that they offered to pay his taxes if he didn't expose them as cheaters in the game, and I don't know anyone that does, but I don't feel like it gives any shred of credibility to his claims.  That's just me, though.

[BK1978]

Didn't know that about RI (after the HvsV reunion, I assumed it was already set up for Rob/Russell to return, without offering it to anyone else).  Which makes me think that maybe I'm wrong in believing RI was entirely set up for Rob to get a stupid win, and that that season may not have turned out so craptastic after all if anyone but Rob/Russell had been the returnees.  However, I did forget Hatch was offered an HvsV slot (and I believe FvsF?) but wasn't allowed to leave the country.  So I guess TPTB wouldn't completely diss him by not allowing him to return.  But it goes back to one of my other points, if Rich felt so wronged by them, to the point where he was even calling out Kelly, why would he want to return to the very people he thinks screwed him over?  Not that I ever believed his story that they offered to pay his taxes if he didn't expose them as cheaters in the game, and I don't know anyone that does, but I don't feel like it gives any shred of credibility to his claims.  That's just me, though.

 

I know I agree with you, I do not think there is a shred of credibility in his claims either.  That being said I would love to see him back just to see how he would play the game now.  As others have said he would probably be out early but then again one never knows.

[henripootel]

Not that I ever believed his story that they offered to pay his taxes if he didn't expose them as cheaters in the game, and I don't know anyone that does, but I don't feel like it gives any shred of credibility to his claims.  That's just me, though.

Out of curiosity, which part do you not believe?  And, if I may ask, why?  I find the notion that Hatch thought he didn't need to pay his taxes (because someone else was supposed to pay them for him) completely ludicrous, but this doesn't mean that Hatch didn't witness something fishy.  He may even have had some sort of a discussion about compensation for not revealing what he saw but it strikes me as unlikely that Hatch came away from it thinking he had a deal.  Pretty sure they'd point out to him in no uncertain terms that anything he saw is covered by the player confidentiality agreement. 

 

The fact that he was invited back after causing a stink about producers maybe feeding contestants - I'm not all that surprised.  Colton was invited back after he quit the first time, and Russell got a return invite even though the producers had solid evidence that he leaked spoilers, like a lot.  We may still see him yet if he's off parole at this point.

[LadyChatts]

Out of curiosity, which part do you not believe?  And, if I may ask, why?  I find the notion that Hatch thought he didn't need to pay his taxes (because someone else was supposed to pay them for him) completely ludicrous, but this doesn't mean that Hatch didn't witness something fishy.  He may even have had some sort of a discussion about compensation for not revealing what he saw but it strikes me as unlikely that Hatch came away from it thinking he had a deal.  Pretty sure they'd point out to him in no uncertain terms that anything he saw is covered by the player confidentiality agreement. 

 

The fact that he was invited back after causing a stink about producers maybe feeding contestants - I'm not all that surprised.  Colton was invited back after he quit the first time, and Russell got a return invite even though the producers had solid evidence that he leaked spoilers, like a lot.  We may still see him yet if he's off parole at this point.

 

That is the part that I don't believe, that Hatch struck a deal with TPTB because he caught them plumping Kelly up, and they offered to pay his taxes to protect the image of the show.  Hatch has such an overinflated ego and sense of importance of himself, as though he's some high and mighty God.  But in this case, CBS and it's team of lawyers would trump him.  Of course, over time, and especially after the first AS season, contestants were letting things out that pulled the curtain back on the whole survival aspect anyway.  So in the end, it's not like it would have mattered one lick what Hatch had to say.  

 

Speaking of Hatch and his bitterness towards Kelly and production, Inside Survivor has been running retrospectives on the second chancers and also had features from other contestants on their respective seasons as to their chances this time.  Rich was asked to give his thoughts on Kelly, and it seems he's still bitter.  It wasn't until recently that I heard he blamed Kelly for having anything to do with his tax woes.

 

http://insidesurvivor.com/2015/07/survivor-second-chance-richard-hatch-talks-kelly-wiglesworth/

 

“What was your overall perception of Kelly’s game in Borneo? Pros and Cons?”

 

There will never be anything like that original game. Kelly was only 22, but she was sufficiently sophisticated to become a challenging opponent. Unfortunately, she was also sufficiently immature (and Producers were sufficiently irresponsible) to have conspired with production staff to obtain food throughout the game. Granted, Kelly’s cheating was not the only issue with the original production, but the impact of her choices both in the game and later outside the game would have terrible consequences in my and my family’s real life. So if you sense ambivalence or contradictions in my answers to some of these questions, my feelings about Kelly and her game are complicated.

 

[cherrypj]

I rolled my eyes after reading what Hatch had to say. I'd call him a sore loser, but he won.

 

I do think the Inside Survivor interviews are a bit dull. The only one I really liked was Max's, about Shirin. Color me surprised!

[LadyChatts]

What's funny about that is that Hatch himself smuggled matches in during the AS season.  Which I know isn't production cheating or helping a contestant, but it is still cheating.  None of his story ever made sense.  It's not like the IRS just showed up one day out of the blue and arrested him.  He would have had notice.  And you're an idiot to not get something that huge in writing and keep it a locked box somewhere.  Of course, Rich also bragged during his initial Survivor interview that not only was he going to win, he was going to return and host. 

 

I actually rolled my eyes at Max's interview-but I'm not a Max fan so that may be why.  It sounded exactly like some of Max's post show interviews about his own downfall in the game-in this case, Shirin got a bad edit, she wasn't asked back solely because she was bullied and made to look sympathetic (and then being accused of milking it), and nothing was wrong with her game, it was everyone else.  I'm kind of surprised some of the people they got to do retrospectives for their fellow contestants (Laura Boneham for Vytas?  Though I'm sure she wasn't the first choice).

Edited July 30, 2015 by LadyChatts

[cooksdelight]

Hatch has always been an asshat in my book. Anyone with an IQ higher than my dog's knows you have to pay taxes on prize money won on a television show.

[henripootel]

And you're an idiot to not get something that huge in writing and keep it a locked box somewhere. [RE: Hatch and his supposed tax agreement]

I wonder if Hatch was trying to lightly blackmail Burnett and Co. into helping him out with his tax case.  My guess is that Hatch really did see some shenanigans and bitch about it at the time.  Later when he got hit up on (completely foreseeable) tax charges, he leaked the bit about what he saw hoping to get a bit of corroboration, maybe a note from Burnett's lawyers 'admitting' that they and Hatch had talked at the time (about something Hatch thought he saw), words were exchanged, and it's wholly possible that this was all just a big misunderstanding.  In return, Hatch would back off on his claims that the producers had fed anyone, yet another 'misunderstanding'.  

 

If this is what Hatch had in mind, he was being pretty stupid about it.  The basic premise of 'they promised to pay my taxes without my further involvement' is absurd and the safest thing for Survivor production to do is to simply not get involved.  Even if the rumors are true that production agitated hard with the other contestants for a Hatch win, that was then, and now he was trying to implicate them in a ridiculous tax-dodging scheme. 

Edited August 2, 2015 by henripootel

[Trick Question]

I feel like an all winners season isn't entirely out of the question down the road, but it would be telling whether Hatch was a part of that or not (and if he was purposely excluded, you know he'll have something to say about it).  As Dan learned this season, you don't bite the hand the feeds you.  Complain about certain aspects of the show all you want, but directly insult TPTB and they'll bite back.

If this fabled 'all winners season' ever happens, some people will have to be purposefully excluded.  We've already had 29 unique Sole Survivors, and after S31 (non-winner returnees) and S32 (all new players), we'll have 31 of them.  Obviously not all 31 would want to play again, but still, you have to figure that at least a few past winners will be left out in the cold.

 

I'm not completely up on all of the post-show interviews, though it seems that the winners who have pretty firmly ruled out ever coming back are Yul, Earl and Tony (due to his health scare).  Others like Rob and Amber have said probably not, though they may change their minds for the "all-winners" novelty and what I suspect would be an increased top prize ---- say, $2 million or $5 million if CBS wanted to get really kooky.

[Trick Question]

Gretchen's comments are fascinating.  I thought she was pretty much off the radar in terms of past contestants who have moved on from the game.  I'm not wild about the Blood vs. Water format, though maybe this is an unintended benefit --- cool ex-players may be swayed into returning for the sake of playing the game with their kids.

 

If you're new to Survivor and are rewatching old seasons, it can't hurt to just start from the very beginning and go in chronological order.  Yes, some seasons are certainly better than others and if you're just coming into it now, the early seasons will seem both very slow and in many ways like a totally different show (since it essentially was).  That said, you absolutely get the best sense of the game's evolution by starting at the very beginning.

 

While I'm firmly a member of Team Sandra, it's interesting that her greatest claim for being the Greatest Survivor Ever (that she's won twice) could actually almost be kind of used against her in that same argument.  What makes Sandra the best EXCEPT for the fact that she's gone 2-for-2?  This is kind of an odd way of putting it, but if you took each of Sandra's wins in a vacuum, you'd think "hey, she's a hell of a player" yet you wouldn't say she's the best.  To wit, going into S20, Sandra got very little hype as even a particularly notable winner, let alone a candidate for Greatest Survivor Ever.  If you had another middlingly-regarded winner play the game again and win, would you suddenly rank them up there in the pantheon?  Like, if Bob or Danni won again, for instance.  Or, what if Fabio played again and somehow won in pretty much the same way as he won S21?  Would he suddenly go from 'worst winner ever' to 'arguably the best ever?'  I'd have a hard time swallowing that one, yet it's also the crux of the pro-Sandra argument.

[303420]

I basically worship the ground that Sandra walks on and I always want to chime in when she's being discussed but rarely have time to do so. Now I have some time on my hands, so I will.

 

"Anyone but me" is a gross oversimplification of Sandra's strategy. I think she gets two simple but important premises of Survivor that few others do. Many get one or the other, but not both:

 

(1) In order to win, the jury has to vote for you.

(2) In order to win, you have to survive the next tribal council.

 

"Anyone but me" is sort of an encapsulation of the second premise, and it's one that contestants are frequently excoriated for forgetting. The proper response to Dan's pathetic battle cry of "flippers never win" is "if not flipping is going to get you voted out tonight, then you're not going to win either." Sandra totally got that, and when faced with tough times, made sure she stayed. It's Sandra or Courtney tonight? Bye, Courtney. And when the attempted flip to the heroes (which I don't think was strategic suicide) failed, what did she say? She said, "I don't want to work with Russell, but I'm stuck with him." Yeah, she sought a more palatable option, but when it failed, she didn't torpedo her game for revenge, she stuck with the unpalatable group that was going to get her to a win. Back in Pearl Islands, she had a loose alliance (because I think all her alliances are loose enough to adapt when she needs to) with Rupert and Christa, and when the outcast twist cost her Rupert, she took advantage of the outcast chaos to create a final three who had no alliance whatsoever. She absolutely benefited from luck a couple of times (Lil's FIC win, Parvati's double-idol play), but so does every winner. I don't get why Cirie, whom I love, gets all the Jedi credit while Sandra, who pulls off a lot of the same things only louder, is dismissed as weak. 

 

The two-for-two victory record is the tangible evidence that Sandra is the best ever, but I think her grasp of the two premises and her extraordinary execution of them is the substance that makes her the best ever.

 

 

[KimberStormer]

Part of it is that people (myself included) just simply prefer leaders to followers, active to passive.  To compare Cirie and Sandra to me makes no sense: Cirie was always pulling the strings, actively manipulating the game for herself.  She not only understood you have to survive the next vote, but the votes after that too; this is something I've never seen Sandra even consider.  Cirie would never ever have missed the chance to get rid of Danielle when the opportunity presented itself (Jerri made the right choice and Sandra the wrong one) for example; and she wouldn't even have gotten herself in a situation where Russell needed to lose his mind to create that opportunity.  Her Triple Play in Panama was exactly that kind of creation of an opportunity that didn't exist (at least as amazing, if less obviously spectacular, as convincing Erik to give up immunity) in order to get rid of Hippie Courtney who was not a threat now but a threat later; Cirie was looking way down the line to make sure if anyone was going to be the goat it would be herself.  Sandra does her best to survive the next tribal but not with an eye towards the future; I think if everything had gone the way she wanted, she'd always end up at the end with her alliance intact, even if that alliance included people she couldn't possibly beat.  Does she ever actually act according to the "anyone but me" strategy she's given credit for?

 

But it's been a long time since I've seen Pearl Islands so maybe I'm forgetting.  I remember her signature move being a temper tantrum bit of revenge against voting out Rupert in her dumping of the fish, not creating any kind of final 3.  It's true and admirable that she isn't stubborn or suicidal when her alliance crumbles, and is wily and adaptable in working with people she hates, staying under their radar and making it seem that there are bigger fish to fry than her.  I think she's awesome (and hilarious and lovable) and there's a strong argument that she is the best and her more passive style is in fact the right way to play; but I'll always prefer active players who take the reins to get what they want.

[kikaha]

In the 1000 game speculation: if none of the players knows Sandra, I bet she often goes far -- assuming she survives the early days, where she would be an attractive boot.  If the players do know her and her style, I think she doesn't last long at all.  She was able to slip by in HvV: the others had all played more recently and mostly forgot about her.  If she plays again, I think they don't make that mistake. 

 

Boston Rob and Parvati, OTOH, are a threat to go deep every time they play, whether against seasoned veterans or newbies.  To me they are far better players, who can beat you in every aspect of the game: physical, strategic, personal and social. 

[BK1978]

In the 1000 game speculation: if none of the players knows Sandra, I bet she often goes far -- assuming she survives the early days, where she would be an attractive boot.  If the players do know her and her style, I think she doesn't last long at all.  She was able to slip by in HvV: the others had all played more recently and mostly forgot about her.  If she plays again, I think they don't make that mistake. 

 

Boston Rob and Parvati, OTOH, are a threat to go deep every time they play, whether against seasoned veterans or newbies.  To me they are far better players, who can beat you in every aspect of the game: physical, strategic, personal and social. 

 

Boston Rob's track record has been hit or miss though.  He went out before jury twice and made the finals twice.  I am not sure he would be someone that would go deep into the game every time he plays.  Especially after he won the last time.

[Oholibamah]

Boston Rob's track record has been hit or miss though. He went out before jury twice and made the finals twice. I am not sure he would be someone that would go deep into the game every time he plays. Especially after he won the last time.

Agreed - Rob plays big or goes home. He tweaks his strategy each time but it's always been more or less the same: gather loyal soldiers and create a divide with the enemy. The problem with his game is that he has limited options when the "enemy" finds a foothold to strike back, because he will always be the first target.

Somebody like Amber, oddly enough, probably makes the Final 6 every time. She is strong and likeable, so not a premerge boot, but docile and unthreatening enough to be the final victim of a Pagonging in the event she's in the minority.

[SVNBob]

As part of an effort to refresh myself on some of the players in Second Chances, I just finished re-watching Tocantins.  While it was difficult to do because of one big distraction, I was trying to focus Stephen.

 

On the final day, two things came up that I didn't remember.  One was that Stephen said that he and JT thought alike which is why they had a successful and fairly equal strategic partnership.  Whereas I (and I think a lot of people) remembered it as Stephen being the brains of the operation while JT was the brawn.

 

Second, at FTC, a question was raised that we'll soon get an answer to.  It was pointed out that JT and Stephen got to the F2 together, but would either of them have made it to the end without the other also being there?  They both said they thought so; Stephen moreso than JT, based on who the F4 was.

 

Now, we know for a fact that JT could not make it to the end again without Stephen (HvV and Parvati's beautiful double idol play).  We'll soon see if Stephen can return to FTC without JT.  I know popular opinion is that he can't.  But we'll see.

[Daisy]

I have always argued (Sandra Lover here) 1/2 the problem with Sandra's stragety game is that she'll come up with great stuff - but the people she's playing with will totally, utterly eff it up (and it usually involves Rupert somehow, so that's not surprising). Like. in Pearl Islands, she's flat out telling Tijuana the boys are going to screw us over, this is what's going to happen etc, and Tijuana is all like "oh i don't know." then Sandra does her sneaky thing and Tijuana hears Jon and Burton laying everything out on the ground  and still really refuses to go with Sandra (et al). (Okay this didn't really involve Rupert, but still)

 

on Heroes vs. Villains where Sandra is trying desperately to get Rupert out and she's explaining to everyone how Russell is and he can't be trusted, then Rupert screws up one vote (hence Sandra's "I'mma  gonna write your name down and you're still going to give me the million), then  Candice decides she wants to be all part of Russell's harem, and by then Sandra's all like screw this i'll work with what I can do on the flip side. (One could argue this helped her win - but she always had a lot of active moves, it's just that everyone always kept on flipping)

 

unlike Cirie who basically almost always got her way (which caused her to be voted out 3rd. (stupid JT).

 

I didn't know that Yul/Earl have said they'd never come back. this makes me sad because I love Yul and Earl. :( I didn't know about Tony (or his health scare, I hope he's okay) either. I think the issue with the all winners seasons... I don't know if you'd get 8 women (or 9 or 10).

Tina's played 3 times (and I don't want her back). Vecepia is an option but I don't think the powers that be would want her back. Jenna (eh - and I like her), Amber maybe but see Vecepia, Danni, Kim, Natalie? Parvarti's played 3 times and I don 't want her back.Sophie Clark? Denise? Natalie?  



(sorry, I just caught this :  kikaha - I do disagree. the only person who didn't know Sandra was Russell. Everyone else knew of her and her gameplay. Parvarti and Jerri kept warning him but Russell felt that she could be a goat, and wanted to drag her along. I would say, what Sandra lacks in the physical game - Lord knows she'd admit the same thing. she does make up in the Social. Personal, and Strategic. There is a great scene in HvV  where Rob and Russell are talking on the beach and Russell is going how we need to get rid of the weak, the dumb, the whatever. And Rob looks at him and goes "who are you talking about?" and Russell goes, "them two." and waves to Sandra and Courtney who are right there.  And Rob looks at Russell, looks at Sandra, and then he cracks up)  

[Donny Ketchum]

Unlike Cirie who basically almost always got her way (which caused her to be voted out 3rd. (stupid JT).

Fourth, actually.  Sugar, Stephenie, and Randy were all voted out before her.

 

Also, the only reason Russell "suggested" Sandra and Courtney was because he wasn't even targeting them that week.  He was targeting Rob, who didn't even know it.  If he'd actually been after Sandra or Courtney, I'm sure even he wouldn't have been stupid enough to say it in front of them.

 

And I feel dirty because I've actually defended Russell.  Blech.

[Daisy]

Fourth, actually.  Sugar, Stephenie, and Randy were all voted out before her.

 

Also, the only reason Russell "suggested" Sandra and Courtney was because he wasn't even targeting them that week.  He was targeting Rob, who didn't even know it.  If he'd actually been after Sandra or Courtney, I'm sure even he wouldn't have been stupid enough to say it in front of them.

 

And I feel dirty because I've actually defended Russell.  Blech.

 

 

I remember the first time I had to defend Russell for something. it was horrible. 

 

thanks for the vote correction. 

I will give you credit for that - Russell isn't  that stupid, but at the same time - he  didn't know Sandra, or her game at all or take heed of those who did (or at the very least more aware) of it. 

[phlebas]

I was telling a friend (a Survivor noob) about Survivor Palau -- Stephenie, Ian, Tom, and how bad Ulong was and how Bobby Jon wasn't the purplest rock in the bag, if you get my drift. 

 

So I started watching it again myself.  I had forgotten about Coby.  I thought when it aired originally that he was setting gay rights back 30 years by himself by acting like such an asshole.

 

Then Colton came along and it's like Coby never existed. Coby's snottiness seems almost quaint by comparison.

*sigh* It's like reverse evolution.

[Way Wes Jr]

I remember Greg saying much the same thing.  When Mr Rat and I first tuned in, that's what we thought it was going to be also - probably most people did.  In a lot of ways it was presented as kind of shock TV - "who will survive, and what will be left of them?"

Yes, and I can't say this for the players necessarily, as a viewer, I was expecting more small-s survival, because I knew of Mark Burnett from Eco-Challenge.  (Tangent, my one beef with Survivor is that its success killed off Eco-Challenge.)

 

Boston Rob's track record has been hit or miss though.  He went out before jury twice and made the finals twice.  I am not sure he would be someone that would go deep into the game every time he plays.  Especially after he won the last time.

I forget, were Rob and Russell's RI tribe assignments random, easily manipulated "random," or assigned?  Because if they had been on opposite tribes, I believe they both would have been performing Redemption Island Carnival Games before the merge.  Russell's original tribe was anti-returnee in the mold of Jeff Kent, and the Hantzhole isn't charismatic enough (in the right way,) to have formed his equivalent of "Rob's Zombies."

Edited August 28, 2015 by Way Wes Jr

[BK1978]

I forget, were Rob and Russell's RI tribe assignments random, easily manipulated "random," or assigned?  Because if they had been on opposite tribes, I believe they both would have been performing Redemption Island Carnival Games before the merge.  Russell's original tribe was anti-returnee in the

mold of Jeff Kent, and the Hantzhole isn't charismatic enough (in the right way,) to have formed his equivalent of "Rob's Zombies."

 

I had to look it up but it was a random draw (How sad is it that I cannot remember anything from recent seasons but I have a good recall of much older seasons?).  So yeah I mean had Rob ended up on the other tribe he might been voted out prior to the merge.  That is a good point.

[BigRedCheese]

Rob definitely lucked out with the tribe, with people like Natalie and Philip that didn't really care if they won the game or not, but when he stepped off the helicopter, everyone seemed excited to see Rob. When Russell Stepped off, everyone looked like a massive fart bomb just went off. Rob might have had a tougher time on the other tribe, but I think Russell's ultimate fate would have played out the same on either tribe.

[fishcakes]

At the reunion show, though, Steve said if they had gotten Rob instead of Russell, they wouldn't have voted him out right away. He didn't elaborate much there -- he just said something like, "it would have been different" -- but in post-boot interviews, he and the other Zapateras said that they liked Rob and wanted to work with him. I think people underestimate how likeable and what a schmoozer Rob is; he makes promises to everyone and they all know that he does that, but they assume that he's being truthful with them and lying to the others. We'll never know how he would have done if he'd been on Zapatera -- and it's not as if they made up a think tank recruitment pool either -- but I don't assume he would have been an early boot. On Ometepe, Francesca, Kristina, Phillip, Matt, to a lesser extent Andrea, and late in the game Ashley were all gunning for him. He turned Phillip into an ally and voted the rest of them out. The "Rob's Zombies" trope has never rung true to me.

Edited August 29, 2015 by fishcakes

[BigRedCheese]

Rob did a lot of work to get a weak end group, it was obviously a great strategy for a celebrity Survivor to win the game, it just made for boring television, it was like watching grass grow, only not as exciting as that.. Natalie was a starstruck teenager, and Philip seemed more interested in creating his goofy character. Personally, if I had been on the jury, I would have voted for Natalie and lobbied everyone else to, just to discourage anyone from playing that way in the future.

[Guest]

The seemed like zombies to me.  They just never seemed to even consider blindsiding Rob.  It was clear he'd sail to the end and win it, but no one seemed to care.  I haven't watched it since it aired, though, so I could be forgetting.  I just remember I wanted to smack his alliance for not organizing a coup.  

 

I kind of wonder if the show discourages any more 'buddy system' type monitoring like Rob rather ingeniously had in place, to reduce people taking out the leader.  It wouldn't surprise me if they decided that's not allowed anymore since it was a pretty dull season, especially toward the end.  

[Oholibamah]

The seemed like zombies to me. They just never seemed to even consider blindsiding Rob. It was clear he'd sail to the end and win it, but no one seemed to care. I haven't watched it since it aired, though, so I could be forgetting. I just remember I wanted to smack his alliance for not organizing a coup.

I kind of wonder if the show discourages any more 'buddy system' type monitoring like Rob rather ingeniously had in place, to reduce people taking out the leader. It wouldn't surprise me if they decided that's not allowed anymore since it was a pretty dull season, especially toward the end.

IIRC, everybody knew he had a HII, he had a fallback position with Redemption Island, and the lack of Reward Challenges made it impossible for anybody to strategize with the opposing tribe. I have trouble coming up with any feasible plan that could have knocked out Rob sooner.

IMO, Ashley had the strongest game that season next to Rob. She worked Zapatera for jury votes and was almost as good as Rob at puzzles - she was an inch away from winning the last IC and probably the game. Her only error was misreading Rob's influence over Natalie. I think she thought that even if Rob wanted Phillip as a goat, that Natalie would at least force a tie. I have a hard time coming up with any alternate strategy that Ashley could've used.

[Guest]

I just watched Micronesia and they blindsided Ozzie and multiple others with idols in their pockets, and James in China before that with two in his pocket.  I don't know if they needed to strategize with the other tribe so much as just do so amongst themselves, especially at the end when RI was no longer in play and the alliance has to all turn on its own members anyway.  

[Oholibamah]

I just watched Micronesia and they blindsided Ozzie and multiple others with idols in their pockets, and James in China before that with two in his pocket. I don't know if they needed to strategize with the other tribe so much as just do so amongst themselves, especially at the end when RI was no longer in play and the alliance has to all turn on its own members anyway.

And end up like poor, stupid Matt? Part of Rob's evil genius this season is that his alliance got to witness Rob's first mafia hit on Matt, and even after he crawled out of the river still alive, Rob finished the job again.

The "buddy system" made it so that nobody could strategize alone. Andrea can't propose a women's alliance to Natalie without Phillip present. Ashley can't try and get Grant because Rob is always with him. Ashley probably shouldn't even suggest a blindside to Natalie because everybody saw what happened to Matt when he considered the idea. The problem with Idols is that Rob only needs to be tipped off by ONE person and the coup is sunk, and whoever organized it is toast.

Rob also understood "game trust". We can say in hindsight from the comfort of our couches that they are morons to believe him, but Rob made a convincing pitch to everybody on Ometepe why they were going to FTC with him. Andrea and Grant were part of his "warrior/most worthy" alliance, Natalie was his "Amber", and Phillip is Phillip. The only person who probably didn't buy it was Ashley, but she didn't have any options sooner than Final 4, and the very little she did to prepare for that (talking to Zapatera and being besties with Natalie) almost got her voted out sooner.

Most importantly, Ozzy, James and Jason are embarrassingly stupid. Rob, for all his bravado, is actually very smart. I can't see him going home with an Idol in his pocket, and even if he did, he was coming back from Redemption Island, anyway. Redemption Island and the HII both ended at F5, so Ashley had the best possible strategy: beat him at FTC, whether she needs to win the Final Immunity or force a tie against Phillip (both good possibilities) to get there. Unfortunately Rob knew she would probably get the votes from Ralph, Steve, Grant, Mike and Julie to win and had done a good enough job at controlling Natalie that her plan didn't work. But I don't think she was by any means a "zombie".

Edited August 31, 2015 by Oholibamah