19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate

[NausetGirl]

Sure, it would be wonderful if everybody could study everything just in case. It is not very likely though.

 

I don't think anyone is saying EVERY one should study EVERY thing, just in case. But everyone should be exposed to more than is strictly necessary to survive as an adult.

[Higgins]

We want to expand options for our children... not close doors before they are even old enough to know what doors might be out there. By deciding as a young age that our children don't need to be exposed to Algebra or don't need to read classic literature or take physics etc.. is to cut off their future. Just because you didn't use it doesn't mean your child won't find it riveting and choose a future plan that will include it. And some of the things we are discussing (literature, math at least through Alg 2, several sciences) are basic just to get into college. So Chelle/JB  are intentionally closing the college door to their kids just because they don't see the point and want a certain life for them that don't believe needs further education. While we all cheer what we see as Jessa saying 'hey I can make my own decisions now'... if she starts really expanding herself and wants to go to college, get a job, be anything but a wife and mother, her parents have created a difficult road for her that didn't have to be so hard. It can't hurt a child to educate them and then let them choose whatever they want to do even if you end up not actively using your education. There is no waste in being an educated, well read/well spoken person. But if you just assume they don't need any education past basic reading, math and writing, you are creating unnecessary difficulties and closing doors for your children down the road.

 

Of course that's a calculated choice by Chelle/JB. The less they prep them to be independent, the more control they can maintain. And we know they are all about control.

By law, they had to test to state standards. Did they not?

[Darknight]

We want to expand options for our children... not close doors before they are even old enough to know what doors might be out there. By deciding as a young age that our children don't need to be exposed to Algebra or don't need to read classic literature or take physics etc.. is to cut off their future. Just because you didn't use it doesn't mean your child won't find it riveting and choose a future plan that will include it. And some of the things we are discussing (literature, math at least through Alg 2, several sciences) are basic just to get into college. So Chelle/JB are intentionally closing the college door to their kids just because they don't see the point and want a certain life for them that don't believe needs further education. While we all cheer what we see as Jessa saying 'hey I can make my own decisions now'... if she starts really expanding herself and wants to go to college, get a job, be anything but a wife and mother, her parents have created a difficult road for her that didn't have to be so hard. It can't hurt a child to educate them and then let them choose whatever they want to do even if you end up not actively using your education. There is no waste in being an educated, well read/well spoken person. But if you just assume they don't need any education past basic reading, math and writing, you are creating unnecessary difficulties and closing doors for your children down the road.

Of course that's a calculated choice by Chelle/JB. The less they prep them to be independent, the more control they can maintain. And we know they are all about control.

I sooo agree with this.

[Higgins]

I don't think anyone is saying EVERY one should study EVERY thing, just in case. But everyone should be exposed to more than is strictly necessary to survive as an adult.

Actually, someone did say that.

[WTFFF]

 

By law, they had to test to state standards. Did they not?

 

Homeschoolers in AR have to take a yearly test, yes.  But in AR they don't have to score highly or at all - there's no requirement for a score.  All you have to do is write your name on the test and turn it in, and that's your yearly requirement for your parents to keep homeschooling you.  So it doesn't seem like there's a ton of monitoring of homeschool education quality in that state.

[3girlsforus]

By law, they had to test to state standards. Did they not?

Depends on the state... And almost every state has religious exemptions to testing or other rules. I only know the homeschool rules in my state.

[merylinkid]

 

To the Duggars it's truly about giving a possession from one man to another.

Which is why their favorite book is Waiting for Prince Charming, instead of reading just to expand one's mind.   The girls are just possessions and they have don't need to know anything.   You don't educate your table do you?   You don't educate your sofa do you?    Of course, as history shows us, running a household well requires a lot of skills that a good education will give you.    How to budget.   How to organize a schedule, so all the things that need to be done get done.   Heavens even plotting the best route to the midwife when you give birth is about geography, math and spatial relationships.   

[Barb23]

By law, they had to test to state standards. Did they not?

I thought I read it here or elsewhere they do take State tests but Arkansas has very lucrative ones.

I agree if they do something exciting with their home foolin, TLC would show it. It seems like there was much more hands on teaching with MEchelle & the older ones when they were younger. Now when the younger ones hit a certain age, they are plunked down in front of a computer. Like I said before, their constant road trips could be great opportunities for learning and projects. Ex: how many miles will we be driving to each city, figuring out the gas mpg of the Stink Bus, learning the history of the cities they are visiting and writing essays of what each kid found most interesting in the trip, etc. Have we ever seen them write a Thank you note to any of the places they have visited? (The farms, pumpkin patch, baseball bat factory, etc) I think there was just one time MEchelle was having Hanny write a Thank you note to Mrs. Query in the prayer closet and she was struggling at that.

[juneday]

I thought I read it here or elsewhere they do take State tests but Arkansas has very lucrative ones.

I agree if they do something exciting with their home foolin, TLC would show it. It seems like there was much more hands on teaching with MEchelle & the older ones when they were younger. Now when the younger ones hit a certain age, they are plunked down in front of a computer. Like I said before, their constant road trips could be great opportunities for learning and projects. Ex: how many miles will we be driving to each city, figuring out the gas mpg of the Stink Bus, learning the history of the cities they are visiting and writing essays of what each kid found most interesting in the trip, etc. Have we ever seen them write a Thank you note to any of the places they have visited? (The farms, pumpkin patch, baseball bat factory, etc) I think there was just one time MEchelle was having Hanny write a Thank you note to Mrs. Query in the prayer closet and she was struggling at that.

Tbh, I don't have anything wrong with online schooling. Some of my friends do online high school and they are very articulate and intelligent. Also, I have compared some of the material that they are studying to my private school education and some of it is harder or stuff I haven't learned yet.

However, their parents don't see them as objects to control. Their parents are serious about their education and make sure they have picked a good, accredited online program.

That is the difference (one of them) between them and the Duggars. The Duggars don't care if their kids get a good education or not because they just want to control them anyway, so who cares?

[NausetGirl]

Actually, someone did say that.

 

OK. While I certainly don't agree with everyone having to study everything, my point remains the same. The more children are exposed to in school, the better. Children will go on to study the topics of most interest to them in greater depth. And that can only be a good thing. But JimBob and Michelle Duggar's "style" of homeschooling is to deny them that option, as they deny them options in so many other ways as well. They treat their children as property, and property that they will treat as they see fit, even when those children are no longer children.

[homeperm]

The only stewards those parents care about is their daughters' "secret gardens". Sorry, plain and simple. Michelle doesn't give ONE hoot about how those girls are treated, if any of their hopes and dreams aside from childbearing are noticed, nurtured or attained. As far as the boys go,, Michelle needs for them to wear name tags. Jim Bob sees his boys as nothing more than free labor with his never ending projects.

Spot. On. Their bizarre focus on modesty sexualizes the children from day one and that's really messed up. I remember a scene where Mullet told on the boys to leave the room because she was going to change the baby, a girl. I don't remember which kids they were. It was a while back, but it has always stuck with me. I would think that that would set a kid's imagination on fire, wondering just what the heck his sister's diaper was hiding. I'm not exactly an exhibitionist or a nudity enthusiast. You might even call me a "never nude," but insinuating that an infant getting her diaper changed is immodest or could stir up sexual desire is just creepy and gross. In my world, that isn't even sane.

[homeperm]

It really bothers me how the young men are expected to ask JB permission before proposing to the daughters, because HE holds their heart. Why not both parents? They both took a part in raising these girls (ostensibly). Why would their heart only belong to dad? That just comes off as creepy to me. 

I can sort of understand that the 'trained' children play along with this bs, but I don't at all get how Boob thinks it's any of his damn business. Further proof to me that he considers his children things, at best, pets.

[homeperm]

 

How is it any different than the father "giving" the bride away in almost every wedding? It is tradition.

Nobody gave me away. I wasn't anyone's to give. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the time, when that tradition is practiced at a wedding, it's symbolic and sentimental, not LITERAL. 

[Darknight]

Homeschoolers in AR have to take a yearly test, yes. But in AR they don't have to score highly or at all - there's no requirement for a score. All you have to do is write your name on the test and turn it in, and that's your yearly requirement for your parents to keep homeschooling you. So it doesn't seem like there's a ton of monitoring of homeschool education quality in that state.

in my state all homeschoolers have to get a certain score on a state exam or else risk their homeschooling program being investigated and on probation

Tbh, I don't have anything wrong with online schooling. Some of my friends do online high school and they are very articulate and intelligent. Also, I have compared some of the material that they are studying to my private school education and some of it is harder or stuff I haven't learned yet.

However, their parents don't see them as objects to control. Their parents are serious about their education and make sure they have picked a good, accredited online program.

That is the difference (one of them) between them and the Duggars. The Duggars don't care if their kids get a good education or not because they just want to control them anyway, so who cares?

I bet if it were legal for parents not to teach their kids anything they wouldn't. Just wake up and do house work or do nothing. Thank goodness for laws

[3girlsforus]

in my state all homeschoolers have to get a certain score on a state exam or else risk their homeschooling program being investigated and on probation

 

This is true in my state too but the score is pretty low. Of course the score required to pass the testing at the public school isn't exactly shooting for the moon either so they probably can't require more from a homeschooler than they require of other kids. 

[RazzleberryPie]

Spot. On. Their bizarre focus on modesty sexualizes the children from day one and that's really messed up. I remember a scene where Mullet told on the boys to leave the room because she was going to change the baby, a girl. I don't remember which kids they were. It was a while back, but it has always stuck with me. I would think that that would set a kid's imagination on fire, wondering just what the heck his sister's diaper was hiding. I'm not exactly an exhibitionist or a nudity enthusiast. You might even call me a "never nude," but insinuating that an infant getting her diaper changed is immodest or could stir up sexual desire is just creepy and gross. In my world, that isn't even sane.

OK that;s just weird, especially since you know the girls are changing boy diapers. Not that it would take much prompting to get any kids to leave a room while there are stinky diapers being changed, but still.

[homeperm]

I would hope that EVERYONE gets an exposure to statistics (and other mathematics) since I think an understanding of it is necessary in today's world -where you need to understand research and surveys and to be able to interpret information that the media presents to us. Part of critical thinking of being able to understand if someone is obfuscating the truth - and understanding statistics is a part of that. We need to learn things other than what we use on the job to be good, informed citizens of the world.  

This may be one of my favorite posts ever, and exactly what is wrong with the Duggars. Those so-called useless subjects at school are part of a complete education. That's why you have to take the required courses at school. If you study just one subject, you can't understand the context of what you're studying. The Duggar kids have only one view of the world. They aren't even allowed to be exposed to a variety of ideas. They don't discuss ideas. They just receive information and repeat it, which is by design. As to subjects like stats, do I use it every day? No. Did it 'stretch' my brain and challenge what I thought my limits were? Yes and yes. If that doesn't make it worth it, I don't know what could.

[DangerousMinds]

It really bothers me how the young men are expected to ask JB permission before proposing to the daughters, because HE holds their heart. Why not both parents? They both took a part in raising these girls (ostensibly). Why would their heart only belong to dad? That just comes off as creepy to me.

Well, Boob did tell Bin Bulb that he had "Michelle and 'I's' permission" to marry.

[DangerousMinds]

Because it is boring. I'm not in high school I have a graduate degree and I have never used advanced math. Even with a graduate degree in science I use very little chemistry beyond the basics.

But who knows which kids may find inspiration and use it? They will never know if they aren't introduced to it.

Well, not only did I have a black wedding dress I asked for that specific to be part to be left out. Who and why was anyone giving me away?

I thought it offensive as a regular reader of Ms. magazine which was very, very popular at the the time. :-) Gloria Steinem was the founder. Ok I am so off-topic....

I LOVE that you wore black!

[Higgins]

I'm not arguing against educational opportunity, just pointing out that most people don't have advanced math and science skills. The Duggars are not unusual in that respect. It would be wonderful if everybody had advanced education but that is not the norm even for non fundamentalist families. There are many things about their parenting that I disagree with. It just seems that there is so much speculation about what they do or don't do that we really can't know. I'm sure they would find my parenting horrible. I did not expose my children to religion. I don't keep them from it but, it was not a part of their lives, at all. Sometimes I feel the desire to bring some balance to the discussion.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Higgins

[GEML]

Actually, many Grace Livingston Hill and Isabella Alden novels have old fashioned courtship styles. Hill even homeschooled her own daughters.

The real issue is that Jim Bob and Michelle aren't readers, so they don't know what is and isn't "appropriate" for their children, and so therefore nothing is. And that isn't even Gothard-foolish, that's just bull-headed on them.

[Abstract]

Actually, many Grace Livingston Hill and Isabella Alden novels have old fashioned courtship styles. Hill even homeschooled her own daughters.

The real issue is that Jim Bob and Michelle aren't readers, so they don't know what is and isn't "appropriate" for their children, and so therefore nothing is. And that isn't even Gothard-foolish, that's just bull-headed on them.

I guess I just remember the "ingenue all alone in big city who keeps her values and hooks the rich man" style of GLH books.

[GEML]

That woman wrote a hundred books, so there's plenty to choose from!

[3girlsforus]

I'm not arguing against educational opportunity, just pointing out that most people don't have advanced math and science skills. The Duggars are not unusual in that respect. It would be wonderful if everybody had advanced education but that is not the norm even for non fundamentalist families. There are many things about their parenting that I disagree with. It just seems that there is so much speculation about what they do or don't do that we really can't know. I'm sure they would find my parenting horrible. I did not expose my children to religion. I don't keep them from it but, it was not a part of their lives, at all. Sometimes I feel the desire to bring some balance to the discussion.

I don't consider a high school education 'advanced education'. In my county to get a standard high school diploma which is reserved for those not going to college or at the maximum a few community college courses, you must take through Algebra 2, 3 different lab sciences, 4 years of English which will include literature studies etc. That is the bare minimum. It is legal to graduate with less both in my state and in Arkansas. But when you don't keep your standards to at least the minimum standard, it really closes doors.

[Higgins]

I don't consider a high school education 'advanced education'. In my county to get a standard high school diploma which is reserved for those not going to college or at the maximum a few community college courses, you must take through Algebra 2, 3 different lab sciences, 4 years of English which will include literature studies etc. That is the bare minimum. It is legal to graduate with less both in my state and in Arkansas. But when you don't keep your standards to at least the minimum standard, it really closes doors.

Do we know that they didn't?

[GEML]

Let's not beat around the bush here.  Here's what we KNOW. 

First, the ATI curriculum isn't very academically rigorous.  I can tell you that because I have quite a few friends who are deeply religious and homeschool.  The "Wisdom work books" as they were known on the original shows and now on the computers, are considered to be a joke among families who take this seriously.  

Second, there is a reason we are only shown a few of the kids receiving a GED or a high school education.  The Duggars care very much about their image, and if they had more of those to show, we'd see them.  What this tells me is that most of the kids probably don't even have their GED, let alone an official high school diploma, which you are able to get via an on-line charter school, but that costs money and requires you submit to an outside authority -- something that Duggars actively refuse to do in pretty much every other area of their lives, so it would take a very strong child to make that case.  Josiah may have done it, and the payment in return might have been putting in a year at the ALERT academy.  I could see a bargain like that being made.  I believe that Jinger has her GED.

Third, Jim Bob has said on at least two occasions outright that he sees no need for his children to pursue an advanced education because he doesn't have one and he's done just fine.  

Fourth, Gothardism is very much opposed to college education, any type of learning that permits a child to ask any questions (it doesn't like adults asking questions, for that matter) so any type of liberal arts education is out.  The Bates daughter was able to study music at Crown College, but I believe this was possibly because she was studying performance, not anything that involved theory, and it was in Chicago, so she could place herself under the Gothard wing that is already established up there.  I truly believe that any child growing up in a true Gothard family would not be permitted to read Shakespeare, because it would mean asking questions, and asking questions runs the risk of having a parent not know the answer (which would cause a rupture in the "umbrella of authority" -- parents must always know the answer to all questions at all times -- and also just asking the question could endanger the child in the same way that eating from the Tree of Knowledge cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden.

I think anyone who has been reading my posts knows I'll cut the Duggars a lot of slack.  I cut Fundamentalists a lot of slack.  But there just isn't any slack to cut here.  They are not only anti-education, they are AFRAID of it.

And I'm not changing my position until they send a child to at least a college like Pensacola, Patrick Henry, or Bob Jones, let alone even mention sending them somewhere like Baylor or Wheaton (Gothard's alma mater) Grove City or Hillsdale.  

[BuddyMom]

I think a lot of this discussion about the children's education is speculation because the show hasn't given the viewers the real story. At one time, it showed Michelle at the table teaching the kids but I would like to know what happens now.

For example, what is a typical day like for the howlers? Do they work on a variety of subjects everyday? Is an adult working with them or are they on their own at the computer?

[Darknight]

Let's not beat around the bush here. Here's what we KNOW.

First, the ATI curriculum isn't very academically rigorous. I can tell you that because I have quite a few friends who are deeply religious and homeschool. The "Wisdom work books" as they were known on the original shows and now on the computers, are considered to be a joke among families who take this seriously.

Second, there is a reason we are only shown a few of the kids receiving a GED or a high school education. The Duggars care very much about their image, and if they had more of those to show, we'd see them. What this tells me is that most of the kids probably don't even have their GED, let alone an official high school diploma, which you are able to get via an on-line charter school, but that costs money and requires you submit to an outside authority -- something that Duggars actively refuse to do in pretty much every other area of their lives, so it would take a very strong child to make that case. Josiah may have done it, and the payment in return might have been putting in a year at the ALERT academy. I could see a bargain like that being made. I believe that Jinger has her GED.

Third, Jim Bob has said on at least two occasions outright that he sees no need for his children to pursue an advanced education because he doesn't have one and he's done just fine.

Fourth, Gothardism is very much opposed to college education, any type of learning that permits a child to ask any questions (it doesn't like adults asking questions, for that matter) so any type of liberal arts education is out. The Bates daughter was able to study music at Crown College, but I believe this was possibly because she was studying performance, not anything that involved theory, and it was in Chicago, so she could place herself under the Gothard wing that is already established up there. I truly believe that any child growing up in a true Gothard family would not be permitted to read Shakespeare, because it would mean asking questions, and asking questions runs the risk of having a parent not know the answer (which would cause a rupture in the "umbrella of authority" -- parents must always know the answer to all questions at all times -- and also just asking the question could endanger the child in the same way that eating from the Tree of Knowledge cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden.

I think anyone who has been reading my posts knows I'll cut the Duggars a lot of slack. I cut Fundamentalists a lot of slack. But there just isn't any slack to cut here. They are not only anti-education, they are AFRAID of it.

And I'm not changing my position until they send a child to at least a college like Pensacola, Patrick Henry, or Bob Jones, let alone even mention sending them somewhere like Baylor or Wheaton (Gothard's alma mater) Grove City or Hillsdale.

Wheaton and Baylor are really good. Bob Jones aren't that strict with rules compared to Pensacola and Patrick Henry. Even these fundie colleges or cult colleges are too risky for a Duggar kid. Too much exposure. To much risk. And I truly doubt a lot of these kids have GEDs unless they prove it. Maybe a few older ones but then again the GED might be harder for them because of their non exposure to certain subjects. It does require some sort of knowledge outside their cult. I think it's all talk sometimes. Until I see proof instead of JimChelle trying to create a perfect imagine, I don't believe a thing they say.

I think a lot of this discussion about the children's education is speculation because the show hasn't given the viewers the real story. At one time, it showed Michelle at the table teaching the kids but I would like to know what happens now.

For example, what is a typical day like for the howlers? Do they work on a variety of subjects everyday? Is an adult working with them or are they on their own at the computer?

I remember in the early episodes Michelle was teaching about bankruptcy at the kitchen table. I believed she did fundie school the older kids and the younger kids had nap time 10 years ago. But then tlc came and gave them all computers so I guess the majority of the work is done online. Michelle does mentioned this in one episode. The kids keep doing questions over again until they get it right on the computer.

[3girlsforus]

Let's not beat around the bush here.  Here's what we KNOW. 

First, the ATI curriculum isn't very academically rigorous.  I can tell you that because I have quite a few friends who are deeply religious and homeschool.  The "Wisdom work books" as they were known on the original shows and now on the computers, are considered to be a joke among families who take this seriously.  

Second, there is a reason we are only shown a few of the kids receiving a GED or a high school education.  The Duggars care very much about their image, and if they had more of those to show, we'd see them.  What this tells me is that most of the kids probably don't even have their GED, let alone an official high school diploma, which you are able to get via an on-line charter school, but that costs money and requires you submit to an outside authority -- something that Duggars actively refuse to do in pretty much every other area of their lives, so it would take a very strong child to make that case.  Josiah may have done it, and the payment in return might have been putting in a year at the ALERT academy.  I could see a bargain like that being made.  I believe that Jinger has her GED.

Third, Jim Bob has said on at least two occasions outright that he sees no need for his children to pursue an advanced education because he doesn't have one and he's done just fine.  

Fourth, Gothardism is very much opposed to college education, any type of learning that permits a child to ask any questions (it doesn't like adults asking questions, for that matter) so any type of liberal arts education is out.  The Bates daughter was able to study music at Crown College, but I believe this was possibly because she was studying performance, not anything that involved theory, and it was in Chicago, so she could place herself under the Gothard wing that is already established up there.  I truly believe that any child growing up in a true Gothard family would not be permitted to read Shakespeare, because it would mean asking questions, and asking questions runs the risk of having a parent not know the answer (which would cause a rupture in the "umbrella of authority" -- parents must always know the answer to all questions at all times -- and also just asking the question could endanger the child in the same way that eating from the Tree of Knowledge cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden.

I think anyone who has been reading my posts knows I'll cut the Duggars a lot of slack.  I cut Fundamentalists a lot of slack.  But there just isn't any slack to cut here.  They are not only anti-education, they are AFRAID of it.

And I'm not changing my position until they send a child to at least a college like Pensacola, Patrick Henry, or Bob Jones, let alone even mention sending them somewhere like Baylor or Wheaton (Gothard's alma mater) Grove City or Hillsdale.  

I was typing all of this but you said it better. As a homeschooler I can confirm that the curriculum is considered light to not-really-anything even by those who are considered light homeschoolers. There are no courses, credits, transcripts etc. Most homeschoolers graduate their own child (with no need for an overseer or academy) and have a formal transcript with courses, grades etc. Nearly every college in the nation (private, public, Christian, secular, Ivy, Academies etc) accepts these transcripts. They also have their children taking PSATs, SATs, AP exams, SATII tests etc. GEDs are rarely pursued by homeschoolers doing typical high school education. There is nothing in the show, their philosophy, the way they conduct themselves etc that makes me think that there is some hidden advanced learning going on that we just aren't seeing. As Geml says, when they send a kid to college then I'll take another look at it. It's not that every kid has to go but you'd think if they really think education is important that out of 19, someone might at least talk about it or be preparing for the possibility. 

 

BTW  Geml... I would faint dead away if they sent anyone to Wheaton. These days it's considered a den of evil amongst really conservative Christians and was recently listed with other schools like Baylor as a school to watch out for their fake faith  :-)

[Darknight]

I was typing all of this but you said it better. As a homeschooler I can confirm that the curriculum is considered light to not-really-anything even by those who are considered light homeschoolers. There are no courses, credits, transcripts etc. Most homeschoolers graduate their own child (with no need for an overseer or academy) and have a formal transcript with courses, grades etc. Nearly every college in the nation (private, public, Christian, secular, Ivy, Academies etc) accepts these transcripts. They also have their children taking PSATs, SATs, AP exams, SATII tests etc. GEDs are rarely pursued by homeschoolers doing typical high school education. There is nothing in the show, their philosophy, the way they conduct themselves etc that makes me think that there is some hidden advanced learning going on that we just aren't seeing. As Geml says, when they send a kid to college then I'll take another look at it. It's not that every kid has to go but you'd think if they really think education is important that out of 19, someone might at least talk about it or be preparing for the possibility.

BTW Geml... I would faint dead away if they sent anyone to Wheaton. These days it's considered a den of evil amongst really conservative Christians and was recently listed with other schools like Baylor as a school to watch out for their fake faith :-)

Nooo. My daughter was looking into Wheaton. Well there's always Pepperdine. And any setting where the Duggar kids can interact and get an education even if it's a conservative education is a big step for any of them. As much as I dislike conservatives they aren't stupid like fundies. Well some are

[3girlsforus]

Nooo. My daughter was looking into Wheaton. Well there's always Pepperdine. And any setting where the Duggar kids can interact and get an education even if it's a conservative education is a big step for any of them. As much as I dislike conservatives they aren't stupid like fundies. Well some are

I didn't say that as a negative. Wheaton is a great school. In the ultra conservative homeschooling world where they will only choose colleges that want to continue to shelter kids, Wheaton is considered a raging liberal school.  It's a very good school whose biggest crime in the view of the ultra conservative is allowing independent thought. I consider that a good thing.

[Darknight]

I didn't say that as a negative. Wheaton is a great school. In the ultra conservative homeschooling world where they will only choose colleges that want to continue to shelter kids, Wheaton is considered a raging liberal school. It's a very good school whose biggest crime in the view of the ultra conservative is allowing independent thought. I consider that a good thing.

Sorry I totally read your post wrong. And I totally agree. I think if JimChelle could they would rent a building, vounteer other fundies and call it college for the Duggar kids. Duggar university aka not accredited and fundie school

[Barb23]

GEML - once again, thanks again for your insight. Do you or anyone else know about the Abeka (homeschooling) curriculum? Some of the church schools in my area advertise using it. It's on the Bates' website & Kelly said they have been using it for over 20 years. I'm sure for the Bates, it's in addition to the ATI curriculum.

[MarysWetBar]

Spot. On. Their bizarre focus on modesty sexualizes the children from day one and that's really messed up. I remember a scene where Mullet told on the boys to leave the room because she was going to change the baby, a girl. I don't remember which kids they were. It was a while back, but it has always stuck with me. I would think that that would set a kid's imagination on fire, wondering just what the heck his sister's diaper was hiding. I'm not exactly an exhibitionist or a nudity enthusiast. You might even call me a "never nude," but insinuating that an infant getting her diaper changed is immodest or could stir up sexual desire is just creepy and gross. In my world, that isn't even sane.

Yes exactly! Same as my point about the side hugging family members of the opposite sex. Btw...so funny to see someone here referencing Tobias and being a "never nude" . Lol

[Barb23]

Sorry I totally read your post wrong. And I totally agree. I think if JimChelle could they would rent a building, vounteer other fundies and call it college for the Duggar kids. Duggar university aka not accredited and fundie school

Good idea. They could use the Church of the Duggar Warehouse building for the college.

[3girlsforus]

GEML - once again, thanks again for your insight. Do you or anyone else know about the Abeka (homeschooling) curriculum? Some of the church schools in my area advertise using it. It's on the Bates' website & Kelly said they have been using it for over 20 years. I'm sure for the Bates, it's in addition to the ATI curriculum.

Abeka has an excellent grammar/writing program. I don't know much about the rest. It's all very Christian and I hear the science is boring as heck. But overall it's considered a solid, traditional curriculum. It's not what I choose but if the Bates are using it it means they definitely have more emphasis on education than the Duggars.  

[HeyNow]

Good idea. They could use the Church of the Duggar Warehouse building for the college.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[SpaghettiTuesdays]

Why do these people eat canned things cold and right from the can?!?! I swear, I saw JBoob eating carrots and green beans (?) cold from a can on the weight loss episode. And we've seen Jana feeding Jordyn (?) peas right from a can. I don't get it. And if you're trying to lose weight, canned things are not the way to do it!!! Who would stick to a lifetstyle plan if all you ate was cold, canned carrots!!!???!!!!

[WTFFF]

Spot. On. Their bizarre focus on modesty sexualizes the children from day one and that's really messed up. I remember a scene where Mullet told on the boys to leave the room because she was going to change the baby, a girl. I don't remember which kids they were. It was a while back, but it has always stuck with me. I would think that that would set a kid's imagination on fire, wondering just what the heck his sister's diaper was hiding. I'm not exactly an exhibitionist or a nudity enthusiast. You might even call me a "never nude," but insinuating that an infant getting her diaper changed is immodest or could stir up sexual desire is just creepy and gross. In my world, that isn't even sane.

 

It was Jackson (I think, I get him and Justin mixed up) being told to leave, and Josie was the baby.  So she was worried a 6-7 year old would be defrauded by seeing his infant sister's diaper changed.  That scene weirded me out too.  Though Michelle seems to particularly dislike the Howlers, especially Jackson, so maybe she was just searching for an excuse to get rid of the kid.

[Betweenyouandme]

It was Jackson (I think, I get him and Justin mixed up) being told to leave, and Josie was the baby. So she was worried a 6-7 year old would be defrauded by seeing his infant sister's diaper changed. That scene weirded me out too. Though Michelle seems to particularly dislike the Howlers, especially Jackson, so maybe she was just searching for an excuse to get rid of the kid.

Is it creepy though if a family does prefer to not have opposite sex children see each other naked? I understand it's weird to make a huge deal and assume it would be sexual...but I don't think there's anything wrong with nudity being kept to a minimum in a family. I never had brothers and sisters or have a child. Am I way off here?

Maybe being uneducated (or appearing so for tv ratings sake) is the new black

Nothing is the new black.

[kalamac]

I used to get bathed with my siblings all the time when we were kids (1 sister, fours years older; 1 brother, 2 years older; 1 brother, 4 years younger), and while I wouldn't be naked around them now, when we were all little it wasn't an issue. It just seemed normal to be all put in the tub, or under the shower spray together to save time and water. We'd age out of it around 6ish, when we were deemed old enough to get ourselves clean without supervision.

[lookeyloo]

Why do these people eat canned things cold and right from the can?!?! I swear, I saw JBoob eating carrots and green beans (?) cold from a can on the weight loss episode. And we've seen Jana feeding Jordyn (?) peas right from a can. I don't get it. And if you're trying to lose weight, canned things are not the way to do it!!! Who would stick to a lifetstyle plan if all you ate was cold, canned carrots!!!???!!!!

Just have to put my 2 cents in here - I grew up eating vegetables out of the can!  The can was my mother's serving dish of choice.  My father wanted red meat every night so we had that, and a salad, and a can of vegetables drained, and the can put on the table.  When I got married and the new husband wanted these vegetables heated, I was surprised to say the least.  But, now we eat them heated in a dish.  My mother didn't like vegetables and we didn't know any different.  My father was just happy with his "slab o' beef"

[juneday]

GEML - once again, thanks again for your insight. Do you or anyone else know about the Abeka (homeschooling) curriculum? Some of the church schools in my area advertise using it. It's on the Bates' website & Kelly said they have been using it for over 20 years. I'm sure for the Bates, it's in addition to the ATI curriculum.

I go to a private school (not fundie) and we used Abeka in the lower grades mostly. We used Abeka math and history books until the sixth grade, and now that I'm taking Spanish we use Abeka Spanish books.

I don't know if I could offer any insight on the books-they do have Bible verses in them, even the math books.

Edited November 7, 2014 by heckyeahheartland

[Jynnan tonnix]

Just have to put my 2 cents in here - I grew up eating vegetables out of the can!  The can was my mother's serving dish of choice.  My father wanted red meat every night so we had that, and a salad, and a can of vegetables drained, and the can put on the table.  When I got married and the new husband wanted these vegetables heated, I was surprised to say the least.  But, now we eat them heated in a dish.  My mother didn't like vegetables and we didn't know any different.  My father was just happy with his "slab o' beef"

Same here...Well, not about being raised on cold canned vegetables, but even though I love good food and can pull off a four-course gourmet meal (have often been told I should go into catering, but it wouldn't be fun if I had to do it every day), I have been known grab a can of soup out of the pantry, eat it as is, and call it lunch. It tastes fine cold, and why dirty a dish if you don't need to?

 

More on topic, the evident lack of education is probably the thing that steams me most about the Duggars. The fear that the kids might ask a question or form an idea which will serve as the hole in the dam and weaken the whole infrastructure of their belief system seems to paralyze  JB & M. Michelle in particular seems to live in a world inside her head where as long as no-one ever learns anything, life will always be perfect and she will never have to deal with any unpleasantness. It's almost inevitable, though, that in a family as large as theirs with so many disparate (as much as they try to squash them) personalities, someone will eventually rebel. And whn that happens, it's probably likely that others will follow.

[Skittl1321]

Is it creepy though if a family does prefer to not have opposite sex children see each other naked? I understand it's weird to make a huge deal and assume it would be sexual...but I don't think there's anything wrong with nudity being kept to a minimum in a family. I never had brothers and sisters or have a child. Am I way off here?

 

 

I guess for me, a baby getting a diaper changed is not really a naked child, within a family.  Especially when the kids are the ones doing the diaper changes.

 

And toddlers tend to run away naked when you change their diapers... I've never met one that didn't like to streak through the house.

It's once they hit 5 or 6 that it becomes more important to "keep private parts private".  IMO.

[ghoulina]

Here's the problem I have with how they educate the kids:

 

I'm a homeschooler myself. And I'm kind of laid back. We're definitely not unschoolers, there is a schedule and we have actual curriculum. But I am totally down to go at the pace set by each of my kids. I have seen some homeschoolers who are teaching their 6-year-olds a dozen subjects and that's just not my style. I want to make sure the basics are covered, and let the kids lead the way later with what interests THEM. A big reason why I don't send them to public school is because I want them to love learning and feel comfortable with it. 

 

I truly believe that people are capable of learning most anything they want to. So many great authors and inventors of our nation's history were barely formally educated; they taught themselves. But here's the difference - they were clearly in an environments where that was encouraged, or at least allowed. We don't see this with the Duggars. I wouldn't care so much that Michelle and Dim Bulb do such a poor job educating the kids, if they would allow the kids to educate themselves. But they don't. They have super limited access to the internet, and when have we ever seen them at the library. As far as we know, the only book the girls have ever read is that stupid "Waiting for Prince Charming" nonsense. So not only do they do the bare minimum when teaching the kids, but they are ACTIVELY preventing them from learning on their own. THAT'S what really sticks in my craw. 

 

They have shown zero interest in thinking of their children as individuals and catering to their needs. They just chose this one, particular curriculum and stick with it no matter what. Aren't they doing an online school now? What if some of the kids don't learn well that way? Oh well, too bad. I just really hate all-in-ones anyway. I like to pick and choose. I use a different curriculum for every subject, because it's super important to me to pick one that will help my child learn in a way that THEY really understand, and will foster a love of learning. 

 

For the Duggars, it's like they just want to get it out of the way. And that's so sad to me. 

[3girlsforus]

Here's the problem I have with how they educate the kids:

 

I'm a homeschooler myself. And I'm kind of laid back. We're definitely not unschoolers, there is a schedule and we have actual curriculum. But I am totally down to go at the pace set by each of my kids. I have seen some homeschoolers who are teaching their 6-year-olds a dozen subjects and that's just not my style. I want to make sure the basics are covered, and let the kids lead the way later with what interests THEM. A big reason why I don't send them to public school is because I want them to love learning and feel comfortable with it. 

 

I truly believe that people are capable of learning most anything they want to. So many great authors and inventors of our nation's history were barely formally educated; they taught themselves. But here's the difference - they were clearly in an environments where that was encouraged, or at least allowed. We don't see this with the Duggars. I wouldn't care so much that Michelle and Dim Bulb do such a poor job educating the kids, if they would allow the kids to educate themselves. But they don't. They have super limited access to the internet, and when have we ever seen them at the library. As far as we know, the only book the girls have ever read is that stupid "Waiting for Prince Charming" nonsense. So not only do they do the bare minimum when teaching the kids, but they are ACTIVELY preventing them from learning on their own. THAT'S what really sticks in my craw. 

 

They have shown zero interest in thinking of their children as individuals and catering to their needs. They just chose this one, particular curriculum and stick with it no matter what. Aren't they doing an online school now? What if some of the kids don't learn well that way? Oh well, too bad. I just really hate all-in-ones anyway. I like to pick and choose. I use a different curriculum for every subject, because it's super important to me to pick one that will help my child learn in a way that THEY really understand, and will foster a love of learning. 

 

For the Duggars, it's like they just want to get it out of the way. And that's so sad to me. 

 

This really sums it up for me. You can be an excellent homeschooler with all kinds of different approaches. I have been more laid back like this when my kids were younger. Now I'm more structured as my kids headed toward college. But it was always about learning and expanding their horizons - getting them to think and to be fascinated by the world. 

 

And I agree on the curriculum thing too... I don't use all-in-one curriculums and I use different curriculum for each of my kids except for history and that's only because I found something that I can use over the years and everyone likes and responds to. 

[SoSueMe]

I used to get bathed with my siblings all the time when we were kids (1 sister, fours years older; 1 brother, 2 years older; 1 brother, 4 years younger), and while I wouldn't be naked around them now, when we were all little it wasn't an issue. It just seemed normal to be all put in the tub, or under the shower spray together to save time and water. We'd age out of it around 6ish, when we were deemed old enough to get ourselves clean without supervision.

Seems like a healthy and practical way to deal with bathing kids in a large family.

[GEML]

As posted, Abeka is solid, but again, maybe not the type of curriculum you would use for a college track homeschool student if that is the only thing you used. Which your child may or may not be. One of the best things about homeschooling is that you know your kid and you can take the strengths he/she has and find the right approach, or even mix and match curriculums.

As I said in my earlier post, the Bates children do not have what most people (even religious conservatives) would call a college education. The one daughter studied music performance. This is more in keeping with someone studying dance or theatre and getting a BFA.

One of my sisters is a Wheaton grad, and my father taught at a small, private conservative Christian college most of my life. I have friends who either are teaching or who have taught or attended most of the familiar names. (Rebel me, I attended the godless state university.)

Edited November 7, 2014 by GEML

[NausetGirl]

It's actually fairly common in large parts of the US, not just among religious conservatives, for fathers to share a "first date" with their daughter.  There's whole video on this that comes around my FB feed from time to time, and it's just from ordinary parents (often single mothers or fathers) on the idea that if you're a father who shows her how she should be treated, she'll know what to expect from a future spouse.

Now, I grew up in this world, and had access to some really deep odd stuff along the fringes, but the father dating was NOT part of the 1980's culture that I ever saw.  Don't get me wrong -- I knew plenty of patriarchal fathers, but they were married to their wives, and that was a CLEARLY different role than what they had with their daughters, and somehow they all managed to bring us up to find godly, upstanding men who treasure us as Christian women and partners just fine.  (See?  I can do the blah blah too, if I need to! ;) )

 

Well, this is news to me. Father-daughter "first dates." ???  While I guess this could generally be a good idea, especially if presented as GEML describes it here, it hasn't made it to my area of the country, at least as far as I know. I do wonder how widespread the concept could be. The closest thing we have in my region are "Father-Daughter" dances which are generally only held at private or parochial schools. If the public schools do them, I'd be surprised. But my niece [now 22] did attend one at her Catholic high school with my brother, her dad. They had a great time, as I remember.  I think we as a country really need to do something to teach young MEN how women should be treated.