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David T. Cole

S09.E14: Captives

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Sam and Dean are stunned to discover the Men of Letters’ bunker is haunted. Their investigation leads them to a storage facility where the demons have been keeping a prize possession. Meanwhile, Castiel is captured by Bartholomew.

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Remove most of the angel nattering in this episode and it's a pretty decent one. Barty Bart angel feels like a mash up of Zachariah and Raphael, so nothing new there. How many times are we going to see Cass try to do the right thing by the angels, only to screw it all up in the end? And how many angel civil wars can this show keep trotting out before the angels just kill themselves off? I thought there were supposed to be so very few angels after the first civil war in S6; then Cass decimating so many of them when he was God; and they lost so many of them saving Cass from Purgatory; then so many dying in the fall. There seems to be more angels now than back in S4...maybe I've just been misunderstanding term "so very few" all these years. Or, maybe there's an angel-making factory we've yet to see?  It's really not unlike how it seems there are endless demons being trotted out of Hell these days, too. Whatever.

 

As to the good part of the episode: Interesting development with the veil

too bad they totally wasted all that interesting potential in the end

 and Kevin and his mom and are good stuff, IMO. I also find it interesting how them locking Crowley up in the bunker led to a whole host of other consequences they hadn't ever considered. And the mystery of Mrs.Tran is actually kind of interesting. Although, I think they may have revealed her as being alive a bit too early in the episode, but I'm not too worried about that. I kinda wish they'd kept Mrs. Tran and Kevin in the bunker--Sam and Dean could use some positive influences in their lives right now. And, even though Del was far too obvious and monologue-y for my taste, I did find him somewhat interesting in that he was a demon and wanting to be evil, but Crowley just wouldn't let him. I don't disagree, that gig did kinda blow. ;)

 

Production side: Overall the episode looks good, IMO, and I rather enjoy the way they shot the opening scenes, but I think the pacing was a bit wonky and there seemed to be some odd editing choices. Overall though, it's better than most of late. At least it wasn't a long string of boring sit-n-chats. ::shrugs:: Robert Berens seems to be one of the only writers who understands how to get from A to B to C in some sort of reasonable fashion. At least I don't feel like everything is so damn contrived in his episodes and he does seem to understand the characters better than anyone else on staff.

 

The good to end on: Dean's break-up beard is really starting to amuse me more than I remembered it doing previously.

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Love Dean's break up beard.  It's a nice change from the perma-stubble.  I would actually like to see JA's skin now, fully shaved.  I wonder about Cas's intelligence.  After all he has been through, I find it hard to credit that he is as foolish as he seems to be.  I really enjoyed Kevin and Mrs. Tran here.  I did find it hard to believe that the little guy could have gotten the drop on Dean.  He's short and Dean only kept his back to the guy for plot purposes.  Oh, and I have started to ship Dean and Kevin.  I just love their long stares for each other.

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JFC, Dean's wardrobe here....LORDY HELP ME. The beauty is hot, and sexy and so so beautiful and Jensen looks stunning in blue...and I'm just....whew...I'll be in my bunk

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I watched three eps back to back yesterday so I'm sure I'm forgetting some inane points I thought of while actually viewing.  Alas, I'll have to just muddle through;

  • Nice to see Mrs. Tran again.  I'm confused as to how she was still alive though.  Didn't we see her get killed?  I can't remember.  I liked her taking over hot wiring duty from Sam (you mean they didn't teach that at Stanford?) but just disconnecting the ground wire wouldn't have raised the door.  Shorting the hot and neutral together would probably have been better.  I'm geeking out.  I'll stop now.
  • The coffeemaker dinging was funny.  And I liked that Dean thought to bring it to the woods.  
  • Kevin probably had the best lines of the episode, from complaining about having to listen to Dean's self pity to the end making the guys promise to get over themselves.  
  • Too bad Sam was a big dickhead liar (hey Sam, what's that about Honesty being the best Policy?) and made a promise he obviously didn't intend to keep.  Grrr...
  • The angel war stuff was boring.
  • Dean and Sam being bitchy was boring.
  • The storage locker demon was fun though.  
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9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Nice to see Mrs. Tran again.  I'm confused as to how she was still alive though.  Didn't we see her get killed?  

Last we actually saw her was at the end of A Slice of Kevin, where Sam was telling them they were going to call Garth to look after them. Then Kevin says he sent her away to somewhere safe so he could concentrate. Crowley told Kevin he killed her, but obviously he didn't. Which is kinda funny, Crowley usually doesn't out-and-out lie, just doesn't necessarily tell the truth. 

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I suspect that the intention was for Mrs. Tran to be dead, for Kevin angst.  But then Kevin died, so they needed Mrs. Tran alive for her angst.

Carver was always about the shock that wasn't shocking.  The needless, pointless drama.  It was quite tiresome, IMO.

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6 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I suspect that the intention was for Mrs. Tran to be dead, for Kevin angst.  But then Kevin died, so they needed Mrs. Tran alive for her angst.

Carver was always about the shock that wasn't shocking.  The needless, pointless drama.  It was quite tiresome, IMO.

I want to be able to like your post a thousand times. I could go on about the Carver years but I'm trying to get over it and actually like the characters again.

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Poor Dell, he just wanted to be a demon... . ;)

So, back at the beginning of the season they locked Crowley up and got him to give a few demon names they could go hunt down...did they ever hunt those demons down though? Don't get me wrong, they seemed to keep themselves busy, but I just got to thinking about that here.

Anyway, I wonder what other balls of Crowley's (heh) got dropped when they had him locked up in the dungeon? 

On 8/7/2016 at 9:31 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:
  • The coffeemaker dinging was funny.  And I liked that Dean thought to bring it to the woods.  
  • Kevin probably had the best lines of the episode, from complaining about having to listen to Dean's self pity to the end making the guys promise to get over themselves.  
  • Too bad Sam was a big dickhead liar (hey Sam, what's that about Honesty being the best Policy?) and made a promise he obviously didn't intend to keep.  Grrr...
  • The angel war stuff was boring.
  • Dean and Sam being bitchy was boring.
  • The storage locker demon was fun though.  

Word to all of this.

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"Bunker's haunted." Makes me laugh. I love how Kevin is just so done with the Winchester self-pity. I like the reveal that no one is getting to heaven with the angels fallen. I like Candy the ghost. "Gossip blog says he worshiped the ground she walked on. Literally. He had a foot fetish." That made me laugh harder than it should have. "Is Kevin with you?" Not cool. I love the demon just mocking Crowley's accent. "Someone much worse." That reunion was so sad. Lauren Tom is awesome. I'm so glad they switched Mrs. Trans between seasons 7 and 8. I'm glad Sam got to hear from Kevin that he doesn't blame him for his death. And I love his smile when he calls Dean a dick. And trying to patch things up between the boys. Sam, you fucking liar. 

Edited by bettername2come
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Agreed that the main plot was good with Mrs. Tran And Kevin's ghost, but the angel story is s snore.  Somehow I think Mrs. Tran will handle Kevin's ghost just fine. 

And twah, the fighting is making Sam and Dean lose their instincts.

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I found the pacing of this one uneven and it ranged from boring to mildly interesting. 

 

I mostly enjoyed the Winchester side of things. Listening to Del whine about not getting to be bad was amusing when it could have easily crossed the border to boring - so Kudos to Beren’s for that. It was nice to see Mama Tran again and I loved the end scene with Kevin. It’s a shame Sam wasn’t ready to listen to him, but it would have been unrealistic for a small speech from Kevin to magically wipe away the tension between the brothers. 

 

Unfortunately, this is one of those episodes where, despite loving Cas, I found the Castiel side of things utterly boring. The actor playing Bartholomew lacks the charisma of say Gabriel and Balthazar. And I didn’t really get the Cas stuff... So one second he’s gone all pacifist then he’s killing Bart and becoming a leader. I must have missed something because I feel like Beren’s wanted to take us on a journey with Cas, but I don’t get how he got from A to B *shrug* .

Edited by Wayward Son

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best part of this ep was kevin telling them to suck it tf up. except it's not really dean's fault since he's more than open to push the past aside.

mrs trans reaction to finding about her son is perfect, well done. this poor family has faced way too much.

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3 hours ago, Iju said:

except it's not really dean's fault since he's more than open to push the past aside.

Well, it isn't Dean's fault except that Dean was the one who lied to Sam and let Gadreel hang around and wipe Sam's memories and have the opportunity to kill Kevin by not finding a way to warn Sam. Yes, Sam went way too far in his dressing down of Dean, but in my opinion, being too mean when you are angry isn't the same thing as letting a being of unknown intentions use your brother as a meat puppet and then lie to him when he's upset and asking you what's wrong with him... and then when he finds out what happened justifying it and instead of apologizing, implying he should be grateful for the mistreatment. I mean yes, Dean's reasons were sympathetic, but I thought the way he went about doing it and justifying it were less so. It's only been 4 episodes since Sam found out. I think he still has a reason to be angry... especially since Dean hasn't really been trying to change much at all. He wants Sam to do all of the compromising. So of course Dean is open to Sam putting it all aside.

But apparently I'm in the minority in being sympathetic to Sam here.

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1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, it isn't Dean's fault except that Dean was the one who lied to Sam and let Gadreel hang around and wipe Sam's memories and have the opportunity to kill Kevin by not finding a way to warn Sam. Yes, Sam went way too far in his dressing down of Dean, but in my opinion, being too mean when you are angry isn't the same thing as letting a being of unknown intentions use your brother as a meat puppet and then lie to him when he's upset and asking you what's wrong with him... and then when he finds out what happened justifying it and instead of apologizing, implying he should be grateful for the mistreatment. I mean yes, Dean's reasons were sympathetic, but I thought the way he went about doing it and justifying it were less so. It's only been 4 episodes since Sam found out. I think he still has a reason to be angry... especially since Dean hasn't really been trying to change much at all. He wants Sam to do all of the compromising. So of course Dean is open to Sam putting it all aside.

But apparently I'm in the minority in being sympathetic to Sam here.

Taking my answer to BvJ.

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On 8/22/2018 at 9:02 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, it isn't Dean's fault except that Dean was the one who lied to Sam and let Gadreel hang around and wipe Sam's memories and have the opportunity to kill Kevin by not finding a way to warn Sam. Yes, Sam went way too far in his dressing down of Dean, but in my opinion, being too mean when you are angry isn't the same thing as letting a being of unknown intentions use your brother as a meat puppet and then lie to him when he's upset and asking you what's wrong with him... and then when he finds out what happened justifying it and instead of apologizing, implying he should be grateful for the mistreatment. I mean yes, Dean's reasons were sympathetic, but I thought the way he went about doing it and justifying it were less so. It's only been 4 episodes since Sam found out. I think he still has a reason to be angry... especially since Dean hasn't really been trying to change much at all. He wants Sam to do all of the compromising. So of course Dean is open to Sam putting it all aside.

But apparently I'm in the minority in being sympathetic to Sam here.

i'm not saying that sam should just swallow his feelings and move on. but i think the way the show wrote him was that he was even confused or left speechless on why dean did so, i mean...maybe i'm wording it wrong. i'm just saying, he can be angry. but being mad at dean like that as if it was just so surprising that he would do anything to get his back...that's what i'm getting riled up about.

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7 hours ago, Iju said:

i'm not saying that sam should just swallow his feelings and move on. but i think the way the show wrote him was that he was even confused or left speechless on why dean did so, i mean...maybe i'm wording it wrong. i'm just saying, he can be angry. but being mad at dean like that as if it was just so surprising that he would do anything to get his back...that's what i'm getting riled up about.

I totally agree. Anger makes perfect sense but at this point it's not surprising that Dean would go to extreme lengths to save his brother. It's a huge part of his character.

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After Sam's behavior in Fallen Idols, I have no sympathy for him here.  He's the one that accepted Dean back.  So maybe he should have the same expectations he expected from Dean in that episode and dropped the need to keep Dean on double secret probation.

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On 8/7/2016 at 9:31 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I watched three eps back to back yesterday so I'm sure I'm forgetting some inane points I thought of while actually viewing.  Alas, I'll have to just muddle through;

  • Nice to see Mrs. Tran again.  I'm confused as to how she was still alive though.  Didn't we see her get killed?  I can't remember.  I liked her taking over hot wiring duty from Sam (you mean they didn't teach that at Stanford?) but just disconnecting the ground wire wouldn't have raised the door.  Shorting the hot and neutral together would probably have been better.  I'm geeking out.  I'll stop now.
  • The coffeemaker dinging was funny.  And I liked that Dean thought to bring it to the woods.  
  • Kevin probably had the best lines of the episode, from complaining about having to listen to Dean's self pity to the end making the guys promise to get over themselves.  
  • Too bad Sam was a big dickhead liar (hey Sam, what's that about Honesty being the best Policy?) and made a promise he obviously didn't intend to keep.  Grrr...
  • The angel war stuff was boring.
  • Dean and Sam being bitchy was boring.
  • The storage locker demon was fun though.  

All of this is spot on.

On 8/22/2018 at 8:02 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, it isn't Dean's fault except that Dean was the one who lied to Sam and let Gadreel hang around and wipe Sam's memories and have the opportunity to kill Kevin by not finding a way to warn Sam. Yes, Sam went way too far in his dressing down of Dean, but in my opinion, being too mean when you are angry isn't the same thing as letting a being of unknown intentions use your brother as a meat puppet and then lie to him when he's upset and asking you what's wrong with him... and then when he finds out what happened justifying it and instead of apologizing, implying he should be grateful for the mistreatment. I mean yes, Dean's reasons were sympathetic, but I thought the way he went about doing it and justifying it were less so. It's only been 4 episodes since Sam found out. I think he still has a reason to be angry... especially since Dean hasn't really been trying to change much at all. He wants Sam to do all of the compromising. So of course Dean is open to Sam putting it all aside.

But apparently I'm in the minority in being sympathetic to Sam here.

I totally agree with this and think that the writers have made a major misstep in the way they have had Sam articulate it as evidenced by how many people are unsympathetic.

And I don't mind him lying to Kevin. What's he gonna say? No? Dude is dead. Besides, lying to poor Kevin may be the most consistent thing that has happened in the last three episodes. Heh.

I may have been in an angel induced coma (seriously, how do you make this plot so boooooooring) but weren't there THREE storage units. Who was in the third? 
Did they just leave him/her?

I guess I am interested in the veil stuff. I am not really sure that I understand the distinction between closing heaven (as Castiel wanted to do) and throwing the angels out (as Meta did). Does this take the teeth out of the big reveal that this was actually a spell and not the trials for heaven? Would the same thing have happened if Sam completed the trials? Will anyone think to answer this (almost certainly no)?

I am going to be honest that I don't really care enough about the angels to keep track of the two factions who seem to be basically the same to me. I actually enjoyed this storyline at the beginning of the season, but at this point I am so bored with it. 

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8 hours ago, The Companion said:

All of this is spot on.

I totally agree with this and think that the writers have made a major misstep in the way they have had Sam articulate it as evidenced by how many people are unsympathetic.

And I don't mind him lying to Kevin. What's he gonna say? No? Dude is dead. Besides, lying to poor Kevin may be the most consistent thing that has happened in the last three episodes. Heh.

I may have been in an angel induced coma (seriously, how do you make this plot so boooooooring) but weren't there THREE storage units. Who was in the third? 
Did they just leave him/her?

I guess I am interested in the veil stuff. I am not really sure that I understand the distinction between closing heaven (as Castiel wanted to do) and throwing the angels out (as Meta did). Does this take the teeth out of the big reveal that this was actually a spell and not the trials for heaven? Would the same thing have happened if Sam completed the trials? Will anyone think to answer this (almost certainly no)?

I am going to be honest that I don't really care enough about the angels to keep track of the two factions who seem to be basically the same to me. I actually enjoyed this storyline at the beginning of the season, but at this point I am so bored with it. 

I found the angel arc quite interesting. The Angels are without God and the Archangels to lead and guide them. The Apocalypse, which was to bring them paradise on Earth, was averted. A second attempt by Raphael stopped by Castiel led to the decimation of thousands. Metatron forced them from Heaven leaving them confused, frightened, angry. 

I understand that the show began with 2 brothers. Yet, to sustain the series, they had to broaden the scope. Maybe because you binge watch over such a short period of time, you are not distanced enough from the simple beginning. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I found the angel arc quite interesting. The Angels are without God and the Archangels to lead and guide them. The Apocalypse, which was to bring them paradise on Earth, was averted. A second attempt by Raphael stopped by Castiel led to the decimation of thousands. Metatron forced them from Heaven leaving them confused, frightened, angry. 

I understand that the show began with 2 brothers. Yet, to sustain the series, they had to broaden the scope. Maybe because you binge watch over such a short period of time, you are not distanced enough from the simple beginning. 

 

I agree with this

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1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I found the angel arc quite interesting. The Angels are without God and the Archangels to lead and guide them. The Apocalypse, which was to bring them paradise on Earth, was averted. A second attempt by Raphael stopped by Castiel led to the decimation of thousands. Metatron forced them from Heaven leaving them confused, frightened, angry. 

I understand that the show began with 2 brothers. Yet, to sustain the series, they had to broaden the scope. Maybe because you binge watch over such a short period of time, you are not distanced enough from the simple beginning. 

 

 

42 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I agree with this

Oh for sure. Watching it so quickly completely changes the experience. It is usually most noticeable when I like one offs because the departure doesn't mean I have to wait an entire week for continuation of the story, but it is also probably true that the compression affects ny view here too.

I was super into the angel story early in the season and it is hard to explain why it is boring me but I think it is because I was really excited about the "what will the angels do now?" concept and it turned into factions of angels fighting, which seems like what they were doing before. I am having trouble picking a side between them and they talk a lot. I think that the change in this episode where Castiel now has followers and he is proposing something different will likely turn it around for me. 

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7 minutes ago, The Companion said:

 

Oh for sure. Watching it so quickly completely changes the experience. It is usually most noticeable when I like one offs because the departure doesn't mean I have to wait an entire week for continuation of the story, but it is also probably true that the compression affects ny view here too.

I was super into the angel story early in the season and it is hard to explain why it is boring me but I think it is because I was really excited about the "what will the angels do now?" concept and it turned into factions of angels fighting, which seems like what they were doing before. I am having trouble picking a side between them and they talk a lot. I think that the change in this episode where Castiel now has followers and he is proposing something different will likely turn it around for me. 

Yes. Compression would tend to lead to quick resolution without your thoughts leading in various directions in the interim.

 I watch little TV and can count on one hand the shows I've watched over the years. At someone's suggestion, I watched Sons of Anarchy in rapid succession. Mistake. I walked away when it seemed like a soap opera with characters doing contrived things to advance more and more ridiculous plots. Had it unfolded over time I may not have perceived it that way. 

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2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I found the angel arc quite interesting. The Angels are without God and the Archangels to lead and guide them. The Apocalypse, which was to bring them paradise on Earth, was averted. A second attempt by Raphael stopped by Castiel led to the decimation of thousands. Metatron forced them from Heaven leaving them confused, frightened, angry. 

I enjoyed Metatron*** and much of the angel conflict. Unfortunately the stuff I was really interested in in terms of the Sam and Dean side of things seemed to get thrown out the window with the last episode and this one. And the angst kind of overpowered the angel conflict parts that I was interested in.

*** Really enjoyed him. He was my favorite arc from season 8 and 9

Spoiler

and loved the conclusion of his arc continuing through to season 11.

I also know, however, that I am in the majority in that opinion. Heh.

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4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I enjoyed Metatron*** and much of the angel conflict. Unfortunately the stuff I was really interested in in terms of the Sam and Dean side of things seemed to get thrown out the window with the last episode and this one. And the angst kind of overpowered the angel conflict parts that I was interested in.

*** Really enjoyed him. He was my favorite arc from season 8 and 9

  Hide contents

and loved the conclusion of his arc continuing through to season 11.

I also know, however, that I am in the majority in that opinion. Heh.

I loved Metatron from the moment he appeared. What an extraordinary character.

Yeah. Poor Sam and Dean. With everything going on all the time, they didn't need all the brother angst. Different perspectives,  brotherly stuff of course,; but, all the rest too much and too long.

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18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I enjoyed Metatron*** and much of the angel conflict. Unfortunately the stuff I was really interested in in terms of the Sam and Dean side of things seemed to get thrown out the window with the last episode and this one. And the angst kind of overpowered the angel conflict parts that I was interested in.

*** Really enjoyed him. He was my favorite arc from season 8 and 9

  Hide contents

and loved the conclusion of his arc continuing through to season 11.

I also know, however, that I am in the majority in that opinion. Heh.

Metatron is one of my favorite villains!

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17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I enjoyed Metatron*** and much of the angel conflict. Unfortunately the stuff I was really interested in in terms of the Sam and Dean side of things seemed to get thrown out the window with the last episode and this one. And the angst kind of overpowered the angel conflict parts that I was interested in.

*** Really enjoyed him. He was my favorite arc from season 8 and 9

  Reveal spoiler

and loved the conclusion of his arc continuing through to season 11.

I also know, however, that I am in the majority in that opinion. Heh.

Add me to the list of viewers who loved (to hate) Metatron. At a ChiCon, Curtis was a guest, and he impressed me no end in how he approached the character and studied all of Metatron's motivations and intentions even before he filmed his first scene. That way he could build a personality for the character. And Curtis said that he relished the opportunity to play this villain. And I think it shows.

Edited by FlickChick
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6 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Add me to the list of viewers who loved (to hate) Metatron. At a ChiCon, Curtis was a guest, and he impressed me no end in how he approached the character and studied all of Metatron's motivations and intentions even before he filmed his first scene. That way he could build a personality for the character. And Curtis said that he relished the opportunity to play this villain. And I think it shows.

Thanks for that info! That's really cool. I would love to see him at a con...

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