S14.E06: Optimism

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I finally watched the episode late yesterday, and while I think Richard Speight has turned into quite the dick the last few years, and I haven't cared one way or the other for his directing before this, I will admit that this one was very clever in that department - though I'm sure at least some of that had to do with the script notes itself.

Obviously this was supposed to be a Jackie Sue vehicle, it certainly came off that way, and every single writer/showrunner knows - despite their biases - that the best way to make the audience care about a character is to pair him/her with Dean. So that's what happened. But at least when that happens Dean fans get to see a little of Dean - though a little is literally all we get now. I mean, seriously, except for Mint Condition, has Jensen put in more than 8 or 10 minutes in any of the other episodes this season? Because, of course, since it was a Jackie Sue vehicle, and because this is now an annoying BTS mandate, during the Dean/Jackie storyline, Dean has to be separated and sent off screen for a chunk of the plot - while on the flip side of the episode, Sam is never separated from his partner in the story and never not on screen during his storyline. I cry foul - again. And again. And again, because clearly it's never going to stop being a crappy thing.

And, what's also never going to stop being a crappy thing is still finding ways to diss Dean/Jensen's looks from every single male script writer. Yeah, I really don't want to hear it didn't mean anything, it was just Jackie Sue reacting to Dean calling him kid, yada, yada, yada. Uh, no, it doesn't have to be part of the script, yet every male writer is still doing it, still trying to find a way to make it part of the script. Which makes them all look petty and small and childish and very clearly seething with jealousy. Bored now with their vain insecurities.

I 'm also so over this new directive whereby everyone, including if not especially Dean, has to ask Commandant Sam's permission to hunt. Or that Dean is not trusted to hunt on his own or even with anyone else. What the hell did I miss that Dean is not being trusted to do his job even while still performing as the best hunter on the show? It makes no sense. Once again we're telling, but not showing anything.

All those annoyances aside, and they're never going to stop annoying me, both storylines in and of themselves were interesting enough - though a lot too much talky talky between Sam and Charlie in the Musca plot, which dragged the hour down every time. However, I did love how differently Felicia is playing AU!Charlie, making her a very unique character in comparison with the Charlie we've known before this. Kudos on the acting choices.

However, lots of douchebag points for Sam in browbeating Charlie to continue with hunting and not encouraging her to get out and do whatever the hell she wants to do. That was just bad.

I don't know what's going on with Consumption!Jack (love that!), I'm not exactly going to lose sleep over it because we know he's not going anywhere. I'm just worried how long we have to put up with it until we get past it.

+1000 to this post.

Still not a Jack fan or of the actor who plays him. He just doesn't do it for me, but even I can agree that he was better in this one opposite JA than he was in any other episode since he was added to the cast of this show and opposite any other actor on this show. No surprise there, though.

I thought having the fly people come in at the end for their exiled comrade was the most interesting part of that storyline. And Sam encouraging Charlie to continue to hunt was just another one of those WTAF?! moments from these writers of the new SuperUnNatural that we've been getting buried under lately with Dabb at the helm.

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I had similar thoughts about the episode. Such simple needs we have! Please don't make Dean look like a dick, please don't make him look incompetent, please don't show food falling out of his mouth as he is eating with his mouth open!  We should not have to worry about stuff like this for an amazing character like Dean, we shouldn't have to be relieved when there are no cheap shots against him, but we do have to, and it's sad, really.

I was sad about it for a while, too.

Now I'm just pissed again.

Really pissed and I can't accept it as the best that we can expect for the character from these asshat writers; so I'm gonna bitch a lot about that and about them, when I feel it's warranted and until I see if they bring back the Michael!Dean storyline in any real way in the second half of this season because most of the first half has been a waste to me as a viewer-12b all over again, just as I thought would happen, only I really did think(and likely as JA did, too) that they would at least give us a nice healthy dose of Michael!Dean before they pulled the rug out from under us once again in that way. Guess Dabb just couldn't wait. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

He didn't give a P/O box but he did give his first name.  And I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the first letter that shows up at the Post Office addressed to the Winchesters with just the city on it.  Postman might be able to put 2 and 2 together.

Maybe this is how the town gets involved in the 300th episode?

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

He didn't give a P/O box but he did give his first name.  And I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the first letter that shows up at the Post Office addressed to the Winchesters with just the city on it.  Postman might be able to put 2 and 2 together.

No, he didn't mention Winchester.  He said his name was "Jack...um, Smith."  That's how the letter was addressed--to Jack Smith, c/o Lebanon PO.  

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

 

Maybe this is how the town gets involved in the 300th episode?

 

 

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

No, he didn't mention Winchester.  He said his name was "Jack...um, Smith."  That's how the letter was addressed--to Jack Smith, c/o Lebanon PO.  

How did she even know to put Lebanon KS on it? I admit I've half watching when it was only Jack and her but how did she decide on Lebanon KS. Did Jack say it? Cause if he did, what a dumbass.

[juppschmitz]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

 

How did she even know to put Lebanon KS on it? I admit I've half watching when it was only Jack and her but how did she decide on Lebanon KS. Did Jack say it? Cause if he did, what a dumbass.

Yep, he sure did. That's what you get if you bring a one-and-a-half year old on a hunt...

Edited November 17, 2018 by juppschmitz

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think either Sam or Dean have had much more screen time than that, and unfortunately, we have Jensen and Jared to blame for it.  Not that I'm really blaming them.  I get that they've been doing the show for a long time, and in the early seasons they were in every single scene for the most part.  We're going to have to learn to get by with smaller doses of the characters we love, if the show is going to continue.  They have more leverage now and they've made it clear they want more time off for family.   The studio is willing to accommodate them because the show still makes them money. 

I just wish they had more interesting side characters, or not so many side characters...

 

Yes, I do agree that it is because of the Js' insistence on a half-time schedule now that we have this problem, and the side characters are just not cutting it.

Though this year Dean fans have fared a little worse so far because Sam was at least in the first episode quite a bit, where if you blinked during that first episode, you missed most of Dean!Michael's appearance - which is made all the worse to discover that of the two whole scenes he had, both were cut, especially the one with Sister Jo. I mean, come on, there was literally no good reason for that editing decision.

But I acknowledge that for the most part we're getting so much less of the guys because of their contracts. And, yet, this year they're going to get done almost a month earlier due to the three episode cut. Therefore, we should actually be seeing a little more of them in the episodes we do have if the number of overall yearly contracted hours was the same. I really hoped that was part of the reason for losing three episodes, and it would work out a little better in the weekly screen time department. Unfortunately it hasn't, especially where it concerns Dean.

Edited November 17, 2018 by PAForrest

[juppschmitz]

I've been wondering, is "the sex", I mean the phrasing, a thing? Like, is it generally used in (colloquial?) English? I've never heard it other than Jack using it this episode, and not!Sam in Swap Meat. To me it sounds like something no English speaker older than, say, five, would use, but I'm not a native speaker...

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

But I acknowledge that for the most part we're getting so much less of the guys because of their contracts. And, yet, this year they're going to get done almost a month earlier due to the three episode cut. Therefore, we should actually be seeing a little more of them in the episodes we do have, and I really hoped that was part of the reason for losing three episodes, and it would work out a little better in the weekly screen time department. Unfortunately it hasn't, especially where it concerns Dean.

I'm hoping the back half of the season will involve more of Sam and Dean.  I'm still not sure what the actual big bad is for this season.  Is it Michael, or is it this new breed of monster he's created?  Or is it something completely different?  I still think that those who want more Dean/Michael will get their wish later on.  They keep referring to just how horrific his time was with Michael, so if they never actually show us any more than what they have, that will be a complete fail on their parts.  I've enjoyed the episodes so far this season, and I'm just going to assume things will ramp up as we go on.  I'll have plenty of time to bitch once the season is over, if they don't give us something decent.

Edited November 17, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Yep, he sure did. That's what you get if you bring a one-and-a-half year old on a hunt...

Remind me , was Dean off screen when he told her?

54 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I've been wondering, is "the sex", I mean the phrasing, a thing? Like, is it generally used in (colloquial?) English? I've never heard it other than Jack using it this episode, and not!Sam in Swap Meat. To me it sounds like something no English speaker older than, say, five, would use, but I'm not a native speaker...

I think that is a literal lift from Swap Meat when Gary!Sam said it to the woman that was hitting on him.Oh sorry, a nostalgic self reference in show...

[juppschmitz]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Remind me , was Dean off screen when he told her?

I think that is a literal lift from Swap Meat when Gary!Sam said it to the woman that was hitting on him.Oh sorry, a nostalgic self reference in show...

It was when Jack and the girl were in her flat together, comparing town sizes. Dean wasn't there.

The "the sex" thing was as stupid now as it was then. Come on, even the most awkward of awkward sexually eager but inexperienced young fellas won't say that.

Edited November 17, 2018 by juppschmitz

[Casseiopeia]

The book that Charlie was reading had this text....

"This verse looks like a match for what's on Charlie's page: Exsurgat Deus et dissipentur inimici eius et fugiant qui oderunt eum a facie eius Sicut deficit fumus deficiant sicut tabescit cera a facie ignis pereant impii a facie Dei Iusti autem laetentur exultent in conspectu Dei et gaudeant in laetitia
Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered: and let them that hate him flee from before his face. As smoke vanisheth, so let them vanish away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. And let the just feast, and rejoice before God: and be delighted with gladness."

Thankyou xoferew

Also from WFB Threads

Harpers letter to Jack...

"Reread that letter as if Michael is saying it about Dean (in a platonic, possession type of way): "I can't wait to find you. You're the first man to ever get me to leave. Now I'm in the world. I'm sorry I have to kill you, but then I can bring you back so that we can be together again. It's gonna be perfect. See you soon."

Edited November 18, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[MysteryGuest]

Went back and checked and Harper's letter isn't addressed to any PO Box.  Jack didn't give her an address, other than Lebanon, KS, so that's how she addressed the envelope...Jack Smith, c/o Lebanon, KS, Post Office.  If he ever sees that letter, I call bullshit.  

[juppschmitz]

On 16/11/2018 at 1:22 PM, ahrtee said:

Why did Dean have to actually *go* and check up on Mobby?

I've come to the conclusion that Dean brought Mary her special perm shampoo/conditioner.

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I've come to the conclusion that Dean brought Mary her special perm shampoo/conditioner.

He was probably getting a little too much self-esteem back so he went to make sure she still didn't GAF about him.

(joking - please don't hurt me)

Edited November 18, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

"Reread that letter as if Michael is saying it about Dean (in a platonic, possession type of way): "I can't wait to find you. You're the first man to ever get me to leave. Now I'm in the world. I'm sorry I have to kill you, but then I can bring you back so that we can be together again. It's gonna be perfect. See you soon."

Cool observation.  Now only if we had show runners who were actually interested in telling this story. 

Maybe Mary didnt' answer Dean's texts so he went to make sure she was still alive.  More than likely it was to check on her.  Dean regualrly cares far more about people then they do about him.  Jack is another prime example.  I guess Dean matters when Jack wants something from him.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He was probably getting a little too much self-esteem back so he went to make sure she still didn't GAF about him.

(joking - please don't hurt me)

I actually don't think this is so far from the truth.  I didn't even realize it was said that Dean went to check on Mary. I agree with the idea that she didn't return his texts or to be fair to Mary he just didn't get them...for reasons.

I think they could have an interesting SL that Mary is uncomfortable around Dean knowing that he had said yes to Michael. I still don't know if she knows that Sam said yes to Lucifer or if she thinks he was possessed against his will. I mean 12.22 sure made it seem like it wasn't his choice with the line of "He got possessed by Lucifer" without any other context. 

[MysteryGuest]

I think it's perfectly in keeping with Dean's character to go check on his mother and Bobby.  She's actually here, and not stuck in some other world where he doesn't know how she is.  He drives all over the damn country at the drop of a hat, so taking a quick run to make sure Mary's ok would be no biggie and I bet he's thrilled that he can actually do it.  I don't think Dean harbors the same resentment toward Mary that some of the fans do.

[devlin]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I actually don't think this is so far from the truth.  I didn't even realize it was said that Dean went to check on Mary. I agree with the idea that she didn't return his texts or to be fair to Mary he just didn't get them...for reasons.

 

“It’s called being a good son”. ?

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, devlin said:

“It’s called being a good son”. ?

Which Mary doesn't seem to get, respect or she just takes it for granted. She's such an asshole.

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

don't think Dean harbors the same resentment toward Mary that some of the fans do.

Which is precisely the problem.  Dean is continually made to accommodate family members who treat him like crap and never seem to give him the time of day when he's around them. It would have been nice to see Mary appreciate him checking in on her but fat chance that happens with her. And yes I really do hate Mary and I don't feel bad about it. 

[MysteryGuest]

No one "made" him do anything.  He checked on her because he wanted to.  And I think the hatchet with Mary was pretty much buried when they found her alive in the AU and brought her back.  We may not like what the writers did to her character, but there is no ongoing hostility now between Mary and her sons.  

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

No one "made" him do anything.  He checked on her because he wanted to.  And I think the hatchet with Mary was pretty much buried when they found her alive in the AU and brought her back.  We may not like what the writers did to her character, but there is no ongoing hostility now between Mary and her sons.  

Who said there was hostility between Mary and her sons? I didn't say that.  To be clear, I wish Dean was hostile towards her because he has every reason to be and IMO it would be deserved. But the writers never let him have that emotion towards those who mistreat him, and IMO, Mary has routinely mistreated Dean. That's what I dislike about the show not even delving into why Dean went to check on her.  It puts it in a weird place where Dean seems insecure, worried or whatever. I would have much preferred them to say that Mary called Dean and invited him to visit, rather than Dean going to check on her.   I'll not belabor my position on this here.  Agree to disagree.

[MysteryGuest]

The show moves past a lot of things without giving us any satisfying resolution.  Mary and her relationship with her sons is just one of them.  I don't care if people like her or hate her, I just don't think Dean going to see her had any hidden meaning in the context of this episode.  Agreeing to disagree is fine with me.

[gonzosgirrl]

40 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The show moves past a lot of things without giving us any satisfying resolution.  Mary and her relationship with her sons is just one of them.  I don't care if people like her or hate her, I just don't think Dean going to see her had any hidden meaning in the context of this episode.  Agreeing to disagree is fine with me.

They may or may not have written it that way, but IMO, Jensen's delivery of 'Go, be happy' and his so-not-a-Dean-hug goodbye screamed resigned indifference to me. I think her deciding to stay in the AU in spite of Sam literally dying trying to rescue her changed things. I guess time will tell.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think it's perfectly in keeping with Dean's character to go check on his mother and Bobby.  She's actually here, and not stuck in some other world where he doesn't know how she is.  He drives all over the damn country at the drop of a hat, so taking a quick run to make sure Mary's ok would be no biggie and I bet he's thrilled that he can actually do it.  I don't think Dean harbors the same resentment toward Mary that some of the fans do.

Since I was the one who raised the question in the first place (I think) let me clarify:  I didn't mean to indicate anything about Dean being hostile or forgiving or anything *other* than the fact that it doesn't make sense for a grown son to drive across several states just to check up on his mother UNLESS he was afraid that something had happened.  No one said that she hadn't answered texts or that there was any reason to worry.  I would have thought a simple phone call check in would suffice.  Driving cross country to check up on a trained hunter who had expressed the wish to be left alone to let her care for Bobby (or however she put it) seemed a little overkill, and I would think Mary (and especially Bobby) might be insulted.  The only reason I could see for it was to get Dean out of the bunker when Sam took off with Charlie.  JMO.  

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Since I was the one who raised the question in the first place (I think) let me clarify:  I didn't mean to indicate anything about Dean being hostile or forgiving or anything *other* than the fact that it doesn't make sense for a grown son to drive across several states just to check up on his mother UNLESS he was afraid that something had happened.  No one said that she hadn't answered texts or that there was any reason to worry.  I would have thought a simple phone call check in would suffice.  Driving cross country to check up on a trained hunter who had expressed the wish to be left alone to let her care for Bobby (or however she put it) seemed a little overkill, and I would think Mary (and especially Bobby) might be insulted.  The only reason I could see for it was to get Dean out of the bunker when Sam took off with Charlie.  JMO.  

Do we know where Donna's cabin is located?  I don't remember them saying.  I think they just wanted to come up with something for him to have done with his time.  We seem to start every episode now with a checklist of where all of the many missing characters are.  There are quite a few now to be accounted for.

[tennisgurl]

I don’t think Dean and Mary have real issues, or that he resents her or anything. I just don’t think they think about each other that much, especially on Mary’s end. It’s clear that her sons (especially Dean) aren’t a real priority for her, and they seem to just be alright with that. They’re probably better off. 

[Lemuria]

3 hours ago, devlin said:

“It’s called being a good son”. ?

Which, as Dean once told OriginalFlavor!Michael, is a "dead end."

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Do we know where Donna's cabin is located?

In the episode when Mary and Bobby left she said the cabin was only a half day drive from the bunker. So Dean would be taking a short drive in Winchester world, definitely not driving cross-country. 

[ahrtee]

28 minutes ago, auntvi said:

In the episode when Mary and Bobby left she said the cabin was only a half day drive from the bunker. So Dean would be taking a short drive in Winchester world, definitely not driving cross-country. 

I'm assuming it's either in Minnesota or South Dakota, both of which are several states away from Kansas.  Even a "half-day drive" can be anywhere from 5-12 hours depending on what you consider a reasonable day's drive (and in any car other than the Impala).

All I'm saying is that it isn't "I was in the neighborhood and thought I'd drop in" area, and there was no need to check on adult hunters who specifically said they were trying to get away unless (a) there was some danger they didn't know about and (b) a phone call or text hadn't worked or been ignored.   Unless you're saying that Dean missed them and just wanted to see them?  

[devlin]

Wow. The scenes between Dean and the horrible man baby actually worked for me. It helped that there was no eye rolling or forehead scrunching but what they were talking about I think actually helped not only horrible man baby but Dean as well. It was refreshing.

[auntvi]

47 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 Unless you're saying that Dean missed them and just wanted to see them? 

Nope. Also not saying that Dean was in the neighborhood and dropped in. Just saying that in SPN it’s no big deal for the Winchesters to drive all over the continental US for hunts. In fact, Sam was near Memphis, TN on a hunt with Charlie. So Dean making a ½  day trip is not out of the ordinary. 

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Nope. Also not saying that Dean was in the neighborhood and dropped in. Just saying that in SPN it’s no big deal for the Winchesters to drive all over the continental US for hunts. In fact, Sam was near Memphis, TN on a hunt with Charlie. So Dean making a ½  day trip is not out of the ordinary. 

I think we're off track here.  My original statement was:

 

On 11/16/2018 at 5:22 AM, ahrtee said:

3. Why did Dean have to actually *go* and check up on Mobby?  They're adults, experienced hunters, and apparently went off to "bond."  Wouldn't a phone call/text work well enough to make sure they were all right?  Wouldn't they kind of resent having an adult son checking up on them in person?  I know, it was to get Dean out of the way so he wouldn't go on the hunt with Sam, but... *shrugs again.*

Not is it possible, or is it likely, or if he should or shouldn't because of (reasons).  Just why did he (or anyone) feel it was necessary to drive there when a phone call or text should have sufficed?

That was my only question.  *shrugs and backs away* 

[juppschmitz]

58 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just why did he (or anyone) feel it was necessary to drive there when a phone call or text should have sufficed?

Dean was on an "overnight run" to Mary and Bobby's place, Jack said.

Hence my assumption she forgot her hair care products. They needed something brought to them, not "checking up on".

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

They needed something brought to them, not "checking up on".

Protection spells or warding or something? Maybe the cabin was unexpectedly lacking in the protection department, and Dean was bringing necessary magic supplies or items that could only be found in the bunker or from magic shops / supply chains that Dean knew, but AU Bobby didn't yet. That's the best theory I could come up with.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Protection spells or warding or something? Maybe the cabin was unexpectedly lacking in the protection department, and Dean was bringing necessary magic supplies or items that could only be found in the bunker or from magic shops / supply chains that Dean knew, but AU Bobby didn't yet. That's the best theory I could come up with.

Exactly.  I think the point was to re-establish that Mary and Bobby on not on our screen but a quick drive away for little things.

I think Dean IS resigned that his mother has her own life and she prioritizes it as such.  I think he'd rather she was around but he understands.  I don't think it was just Jensen's acting (which did effectively convey sorrow in there IMO). "Go, be happy." is a real sendoff.  He's saying, stay out of our current drama.  It's bittersweet as well.  Bitter because he wants to have her actively there.  Sweet because he knows that keeping her out of the immediate blast range should something blow up with Michael is a good idea.  She's a serious liability if somehow Michael wanted to use her against Dean.   I think the show knows it can't keep threatening to kill Mary off each year.  They need a place to keep her around and safe.  AUBobby is still a helluva hunter.  Between the two of them, they'll end up as safe as Mary could be. 

But I believe the point in this episode is to indicate that Dean can and will see his mother frequently.  It just won't be on-screen and it won't cost the production the guest star salaries of Samantha Smith and Jim Beaver.  

Edited November 19, 2018 by SueB

[Zipper]

Behind again....which saves me typing time. I was so abjectly bored by Sam and AU Charlie that I totally missed the fidget spinner thing. Dean and Jack together was the best Jack has been since his initial coping with the death of his mother (also the last time I felt much good will towards Jack). As several of you have mentioned, that's likely because he was paired with Dean-- who actually worked with the kid's talents, such as they are, to gain trust with the librarian and pursue that lead.

There are so many potentially interesting things this show could explore-- the Michael plot, the non-motherly aspects of Mary, etc., and we get half an episode of Sam trying to talk a woman he doesn't really know into a life that could easily result in serious bodily harm or death. I understand him wanting a version of Charlie around, and I like this version of Charlie so I kind of want her around, too, but it's not at all clear why he's trying to persuade her into being a hunter instead of just trying to counsel her to a healthier place in this life-- not total isolation forever. Sure, I mean, a month on a mountain top as recovery sounds awesome, but then... integrate, find your new C/Kara. It makes him look selfish in a way that bothers me.

And the closing message of the fly people, that even if you've wound up an outcast, the village/tribe/team will come together in the end rings hollow because of the absence of any true parallel with either the Winchesters or AU Charlie. 

[Aeryn13]

One thing Mobby sure won't need is ice. :)

Too bad Michael!Dean  never really encountered her. I'd have loved a scene where "Dean" feels the same for her as her self-centered ass feels for him: absolutely nothing.

It was an easy way to explain his absence in the beginning though I wish they would have found something else. I hate even the idea of him making any effort. Always so creepily one-sided.

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, devlin said:

Wow. The scenes between Dean and the horrible man baby actually worked for me. It helped that there was no eye rolling or forehead scrunching but what they were talking about I think actually helped not only horrible man baby but Dean as well. It was refreshing.

It also helped that Dean didn't feel the need to mollycoddle him and baby him, or tell him what a little snowflake he was every other scene.

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Too bad Michael!Dean  never really encountered her. I'd have loved a scene where "Dean" feels the same for her as her self-centered ass feels for him: absolutely nothing.

I wish we had gotten scenes of Michael asking Mary what she wanted, her saying Dean back and then Michael telling her how crappy she's treated him since she got back, and point out that even though Dean begged her to see him, she still doesn't.    Honestly, it feels like none of Dean's family really see him, unless they need something.  Jack too, since he wanted to go hunt and Cas wasn't available for...reasons.

Regardless of why it just feels weird, that Dean would make an overnight run to Mary and Bobby's.  Surely they are capable of going shopping or buying supplies. 

I would have rather know where Cas was and why he was MIA. 

 

24 minutes ago, Zipper said:

It makes him look selfish in a way that bothers me.

I don't understand why Sam didn't try to appeal the more practical side of things.  Michael is out there hunting hunters.  Does Charlie know this? (or for that matter does the writer of the episode know this?) Charlie being along right now would put her in as much danger as hunting.   Why not have Sam say something like, "I get it, believe me.  I tried so many times to get out of this life.   It was never in the cards for me, I hope you can but you know Michael is out there.  I want you to be safe so you have a home at the bunker and we'll support you no matter what."

Charlie still seems to be a tech expert so why not offer the job body cams, checkins so Chief doesn't have to do it all.  So he can sleep and eat...and play with his fidget spinner, or whatever else he does. 

But I think the writers were going for Sam making an inspirational speech and being a motivator.  But the writers went about it the wrong way and it made Sam look manipulative and controlling.  But I'm sure Charlie will save the day at some point and thank Sam for convincing her to stay.  

Edited November 19, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

Thinking more on this,  I'm not sure it is in character for Dean to check up on someone who made it clear they sought time away. He  left Sam to his devices and didn't talk to him for a couple of years on the pilot. He only calle Sam in Scarecrow about the hunt but told him he was right and to be happy in his lfe or something to tjat effect. When John went missing he told Dean to stop looking and keep hunting Dean did so, leading to aforementioned split in Scarecrow.

So given the givens would Dean really violate Mary's privacy in this?

My new thought is did Dean actually go see Mary? What if it was really Michael!Dean who split with Dean and he's still out there making more super monsters. Again I don't really recollect how it was said that Dean went. Did he say he went or did Sam? Or if Michael left Dean but there is still a residual effect on him, could Dean be out doing Michael's bidding and he doesn't remember?

Also, when the person was screaming Dean didn't immediately turn and go towards that direction. That was highly unusual for Dean. Is that another possible indicator that Michael is still somehow doing something to Dean? I would actually prefer that to the e notion of Dean driving just to what sit outside that cabin. Or was it explained that Mary told them Dean visited her?

[tessathereaper]

17 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

No one "made" him do anything.  He checked on her because he wanted to.  And I think the hatchet with Mary was pretty much buried when they found her alive in the AU and brought her back.  We may not like what the writers did to her character, but there is no ongoing hostility now between Mary and her sons.  

But there should be because she treats Dean in particular like crap.  That is what some of us have an issue with.  Mary treats Dean like the dirt on her shoe but it's supposed to a-ok, no biggie, no issues in the family, etc, etc because the writers think it's OK(for Dean to be treated like that at least).

[Jonesy]

I think this was like most of the year--very good but not reaching peak SPN...not quite hitting on all cylinders.  Give 8 out of 10.  Jack has been a strong addition to the cast and worked well with Dean...nice interplay.  Nice light creative direction as usual by Speight.

[7kstar]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My new thought is did Dean actually go see Mary? What if it was really Michael!Dean who split with Dean and he's still out there making more super monsters. Again I don't really recollect how it was said that Dean went. Did he say he went or did Sam? Or if Michael left Dean but there is still a residual effect on him, could Dean be out doing Michael's bidding and he doesn't remember?

I'm afraid this is all wishful thinking.  So far the Michael story is a dud and who the real big bad is iffy.

With as much thought as the writers have put into things, I think it was just a way to have Dean come in late so he could go hunt with Jack.  We figured it out, move on (from the writer's point of view)  I don't think it is meant to mean anything.  Plus Dean's last speech of just let things go, you'll feel better allows him to just move on.

[Aeryn13]

I actually think he has moved on insofar accepting that he will get bubkis out of this relationship. I`m happy that at least it no longer pains him since his mother has been a beacon of light for him for so long. He just needed to get over the idea that she loves him and now that he is, it is easier to deal with her. Lowered expectations and all.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My new thought is did Dean actually go see Mary? What if it was really Michael!Dean who split with Dean and he's still out there making more super monsters. Again I don't really recollect how it was said that Dean went. Did he say he went or did Sam? Or if Michael left Dean but there is still a residual effect on him, could Dean be out doing Michael's bidding and he doesn't remember?

It was Jack who said it. Dean asked if he'd seen Sam. He told him (Sam) went to meet up with Charlie - you were on an overnight run to Mary & Bobby's place and he said it couldn't wait.

They cut immediately away from Dean so there was no reaction from him one way or the other.

Which reminds me about the frankly terrible editing of the show the last couple seasons. They seem to be allergic to a conversation or scene playing out without being chopped into pieces.

[MysteryGuest]

I think we're making a bigger deal out of what was just a throwaway line by the show's writers.  Mary didn't say that she was leaving because she needed time away from the boys.  She was going with Bobby because he needed to heal and she wanted to try to help him through some of his issues and see if there's any type of relationship there.  Whether we like the idea of that relationship or not, they do seem to be going there.  Mary felt guilty leaving them with all that was going on, which is why Sam and Dean both reassured her that she should go.  Dean's a sappy guy where family is concerned, and even though Mary and Bobby are both competent hunters, that still wouldn't deter him from doing a drive-by to check on them.  It wouldn't be an insult to their abilities, it's just who Dean is.  He might have been in the area on another hunt for all we know and stopped in to see them.  This is a man who's happiest behind the wheel of Baby, so this would be a fun little jaunt for him.

[Res]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which reminds me about the frankly terrible editing of the show the last couple seasons. They seem to be allergic to a conversation or scene playing out without being chopped into pieces.

Actually, more allergic to meaningfully conversation that will actually clear up anything other than promote, pimp and prop their current agenda and pets adnauseum. 

My take on the Mary run, if it really was that (and at this point in time we do not have reason to doubt other than pointless hope for more), is that Dean was just "being a good son" as he is. In a lot of ways, my relationship with my family is a lot like Dean's with his and I have several people wonder why I continue to do what I do, like check in, birthday cards, etc., even though they don't do that for me. It's because that's the way I was raised and I believe it's the right thing to do. Just because others are in capable of caring about me doesn't mean that I'm in capable of caring for them but I do have walls up, several walls up. So while I do have walls, I do care and go through the motions because it's the right thing to do and it goes against everything I believe in to do otherwise. I believe this is where Dean is at this point in time. And IMHO the run to the cabin could be as simple as Mobby neglected to inform them that they arrived safely so Dean took a quick road trip just to make sure. I'm sure he's not sleep that well per usual and it's not like he has a whole lot of other things going on, plus driving on the open road relaxes him. Two birds, one stone.

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Plus Dean's last speech of just let things go, you'll feel better allows him to just move on.

Except he also told Sam that he tried so hard to do that, but it just didn't work-which in all honesty, it shouldn't have-not if they're trying to keep any semblance of real life stuff to the Winchesters' story-not IMO, anyway.

And FWIW, I think that Dean has simply accepted that he needs his family more than they need him-or what Yellow-eyes said to him all those many years ago.

And yes, it sucks and it IS so very sad and tragic-but that describes Dean's life in a nutshell, if you ask me-except for those moments that come and go that help him to forget that sad fact.

That's Dean's brand of  "Optimism", I suppose.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Mary felt guilty leaving them with all that was going on, which is why Sam and Dean both reassured her that she should go. 

I don't really see Mary feeling guilty.  She;'s watching Sam burn the candle at both ends and doesn't seem to have offered to take over some of the responsibilities so he can eat and sleep.  She didnt' seem to be going out of the bunker actively chasing down leads.  She only went with Sam when he had one.   Plus, the bunker has recently gained a fully stocked infirmary.  So if she feels so guilty there was no reason to leave.  It comes across far more as her wanting alone time with Bobby.  Which fine, but they need to stop saying she gives a damn about Sam or Dean other than paying lip service to it. 

 

2 hours ago, Res said:

My take on the Mary run, if it really was that (and at this point in time we do not have reason to doubt other than pointless hope for more), is that Dean was just "being a good son" as he is.

This is how I saw it.  But I have a personal head canon that Dean used this as a cover story.  He actually went somewhere to get away from Chief and his minions.  So I think he met Ketch and they went for a motor bike ride, a quick hunt, and a makeout session. 

[DeeDee79]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But I have a personal head canon that Dean used this as a cover story.  He actually went somewhere to get away from Chief and his minions.  So I think he met Ketch and they went for a motor bike ride, a quick hunt, and a makeout session. 

Lol! Nice headcanon :) Somebody write this fic!

[devlin]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

This is how I saw it.  But I have a personal head canon that Dean used this as a cover story.  He actually went somewhere to get away from Chief and his minions.  So I think he met Ketch and they went for a motor bike ride, a quick hunt, and a makeout session. 

Ooh! Can that be my head canon too, pretty please!!!!!