S14.E05: Nightmare Logic

[catrox14]

Also, Mary is such a hypocrite.  She's all "Bobby's got walls up"....LOL she has walls up to her own children...well one of them at least.  I guess her walls only come down when there is potential love interest huh....

[Myrelle]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Also, Mary is such a hypocrite.  She's all "Bobby's got walls up"....LOL she has walls up to her own children...well one of them at least.  I guess her walls only come down when there is potential love interest huh....

I honestly felt as if were trying very hard to draw some kind of a parallel between AUBobby and Dean there, but again, the execution was butchered because it was all Tell. And it was interesting that she first tried to say that Bobby had walls and he wasn't like John, in that way, which even had Sam rolling his eyes.

Who knows with The Ice Queen, maybe they were trying to tell us that she's just a terrible reader/judge of her loved ones thoughts and feelings and aspirations because that's how she's come across to me from the moment that she was resurrected and Sam's advice was as he said-it's what he would do, but tbh, I don't always think that is the best advice in every case and some times it's just better to let someone have and keep their walls intact because they serve as a sort of protection for them, and I even wish that that was a lesson that we could see Sam learn, tbh.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

Okay, after rewatching this episode, I am fully convinced that Michael is still in Dean.  The "You...you!?" thing when the djinn tried to read Dean's mind and it backfired...tells me that Michael is hiding inside Dean still.  I can't imagine any other reason for the Djinn to say that.  I think Michael came out and said "I don't have lamb's blood....but I can improvise and proceeded to beat the crap out of the Djinn.  I don't see any reason why Dean would narrate his own improvisational skills even with some of the hack writing in this show.  Dean would just do it and not say anything.  Also, I've decided that Michael needs to stay in Dean for his own safety so he's hiding so Dean can't kick him out. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  (I'm also probably totally wrong)

[PAForrest]

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

The thing for me when it comes to the brothers is character.  Over thirteen years and despite some horrid and uneven writing, I think most of us know the brothers pretty well. 

 It's not just that Dean is a leader... it's that from what we've seen as he's moved from 20s to 30s and now approaching 40, Dean is a natural born leader.  He takes charge right away. Oh, he’s bossy and he yells.  He can be impulsive and reckless. But he has leadership in his bones.  The bunker hunters wouldn't call him Chief or sit in awe as he rallied the troops.  They'd jump to attention, probably not like him very much sometimes, but would follow his orders because they made a lot of sense.  Dean would earn their respect and loyalty.

...

Sam is being forced into the position by script and Dabb.  Even Jared seems awkward. The bunker hunters and their body cams and being sent out on hunts - well, it's bloody boring.  We don't care. Sam is being shoved into something that doesn't fit his personality and for what? A boring storyline of redshirt hunters milling about OUR bunker? 

And in the process, rather than bolstering the character, they’re criminally woobifying Sam.  Poor baby. Not sleeping. Grew a beard. Sighs and deep breaths. Puckered brow. Mommy’s so worried about him. Fretting about hunters on hunts all over the place.  This isn’t Supernatural.  This is soap...everyone must be woobyfied.

No wonder viewers tuned in and then turned off this episode. A girl wandering a graveyard at night and attacked by a ghost. Wow – let’s keep watching this gem.  It’s so original ..NOT! 

I’ll admit the episode got better and viewers should’ve stuck with it.  If you FF through Mobby (with Mary in Cas' trenchcoat and Bobby sporting Michael's hat FFS!!!) scenes it wasn’t bad at all and we learned something quite important (I think?)

All this and then some.

First of all, yeah, judiciously FF'd through at least half this episode. Literally can't be paid enough to give a good crap about - whatever the hell we're calling them, Mobby? - or AU Bobby's manpain. Also FF'd through all the Mary/Sam scenes - and there was a lot - bolstering woobie Sam for reasons that make no sense to me. Sam shouldn't be that weak at this point in the series. Plus it just pisses me off that Mary interacted at least five times more with Sam in this one episode than she has with Dean, not just this season, but the entire freaking time she's been back! That teeny tiny meaningless scene at the very end that Meredith probably felt she was forced to write between Dean and Mary, that lasted seconds, was most likely only so Sam Smith didn't have to stand there with her finger up her nose while Jim and Jared went off to the side to film their scene. Seriously if I didn't know better - and I don't - I'd have to assume there is a problem between Jensen and Sam Smith as to why they are seemingly not allowed to interact on screen. And I don't believe that of Jensen, he's worked just fine with people he didn't like many times before, and you'd never know it.

ETA: Honestly, I think they should write this weirdness into the show - come straight out and give us some explanation for why Mary doesn't like her eldest son. No, Mary wouldn't come off looking good for whatever explanation it was, but she doesn't look now anyway. But at least there would be a storyline reason for why she and Dean don't connect. And maybe Dean can realize he doesn't like her either. Otherwise ... I got nothing.

I do not understand all this freaking tell, tell, telling about Sam having to be the lone leader. Why? He and Dean can't manage the bunker side by side? Sam has to be the only princess in the castle? It's stupid, why wouldn't Sam lean on the guy he knows can hunt circles around all those lame potentials taking up oxygen in the bunker? And I don't care about a single one of them - let them all get eaten, please.

Truthfully, I don't mind Sam being the one in charge of the potentials, since I don't care about them anyway - but not turning to Dean or getting Dean's help is illogical (not to use a pun, but there you go).

And the really funny thing is that, whether it was intentional or not, Dean was the one really calling the shots most of the time. He's the one who got Sam out of the bunker to look for Potential Maggie in the first place, since Sam seemed to think she was a goner right off the bat.

In FF'ing through all the crap, there was a germ of a decent episode here. The Djinn story was actually pretty good, especially him being an upgraded Michael monster version. I, of course, loved that Dean's the one who figured it all out and killed the thing. Dean and the daughter had great chemistry, and she was a good character in her own right. Whenever the brothers are allowed to work together, not discussing woobie Sam and his sleep deprivation issues, it feels back to classic basics and I like that. Which, again, is why it doesn't make sense that they're not working the potentials angle together in some capacity, even if it's just Sam getting Dean's input and help when he needs it.

IMO the Michael angle is something that they desperately need a whole helluva lot more of.  I agree the way the Djinn reacted to Dean's "nightmares" makes it look like Michael might still be inside of Dean - which he should, because there's no reason for him not to be other than a showrunner without vision. But given how Dabb did nothing whatsoever with the whole Dean/Amara angle, even though he allowed a hint here or there only to intend to let it fizzle out at the end, I'm not holding my breath. But, who knows, maybe given the ratings, they might be forced to actually perform a storyline miracle at the end.

Edited November 10, 2018 by PAForrest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And the really funny thing is that, whether it was intentional or not, Dean was the one really calling the shots most of the time. 

There was one scene where Mary even put herself in charge. This leader angle is played like "what the fucking hell?" 

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

IMO the Michael angle is something that they desperately need a whole helluva lot more of.  I agree the way the Djinn reacted to Dean's "nightmares" makes it look like Michael might still be inside of Dean - which he should, because there's no reason for him not to be other than a showrunner without vision. But given how Dabb did nothing whatsoever with the whole Dean/Amara angle, even though he allowed a hint here or there only to intend to let it fizzle out at the end, I'm not holding my breath. But, who knows, maybe given the ratings, they might be forced to actually perform a storyline miracle at the end.

My problem is that I can see there being a few more hints like the ones in this ep sprinkled throughout the season--just enough to keep the Dean fans watching for more--and then the "storyline miracle" of the cliffhanger being Dean's eyes glowing--again--to make the suckers tune in next season.  

I'm done with bait and switch.  

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, after rewatching this episode, I am fully convinced that Michael is still in Dean.  The "You...you!?" thing when the djinn tried to read Dean's mind and it backfired...tells me that Michael is hiding inside Dean still.  I can't imagine any other reason for the Djinn to say that.  I think Michael came out and said "I don't have lamb's blood....but I can improvise and proceeded to beat the crap out of the Djinn.  I don't see any reason why Dean would narrate his own improvisational skills even with some of the hack writing in this show.  Dean would just do it and not say anything.  Also, I've decided that Michael needs to stay in Dean for his own safety so he's hiding so Dean can't kick him out. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  (I'm also probably totally wrong)

This was my thought as soon as he said 'you'. The whole idea of him hiding out, biding time, is ridiculous on its face. But if he is going to do it, hiding in Dean makes the most sense. The fact that Dean is 'protected' seals the deal. My guess is that he wasn't protected from the werepires in The Scar can be explained by saying he was never in mortal danger, so Michael didn't blow his cover. I guess if TMNS didn't arrive in the nick of time, he would have overpowered the monster that was killing Dean. But the Djinn was going to, or did, see inside Dean,  so he rebuffed him, then killed him. ETA, they made a point of Dean confronting him alone.

This way Michael gets all the intel and can do whatever it is he's doing. Suppressing Dean is canonical- Gadreel dud it with Sam. It would also explain Dean's odd expression/reaction in the woods before they saw TMNS in The Scar

Edited November 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, PAForrest said:

All this and then some.

First of all, yeah, judiciously FF'd through at least half this episode. Literally can't be paid enough to give a good crap about - whatever the hell we're calling them, Mobby? - or AU Bobby's manpain. Also FF'd through all the Mary/Sam scenes - and there was a lot - bolstering woobie Sam for reasons that make no sense to me. Sam shouldn't be that weak at this point in the series. Plus it just pisses me off that Mary interacted at least five times more with Sam in this one episode than she has with Dean, not just this season, but the entire freaking time she's been back! That teeny tiny meaningless scene at the very end that Meredith probably felt she was forced to write between Dean and Mary, that lasted seconds, was most likely only so Sam Smith didn't have to stand there with her finger up her nose while Jim and Jared went off to the side to film their scene. Seriously if I didn't know better - and I don't - I'd have to assume there is a problem between Jensen and Sam Smith as to why they are seemingly not allowed to interact on screen. And I don't believe that of Jensen, he's worked just fine with people he didn't like many times before, and you'd never know it.

ETA: Honestly, I think they should write this weirdness into the show - come straight out and give us some explanation for why Mary doesn't like her eldest son. No, Mary wouldn't come off looking good for whatever explanation it was, but she doesn't look now anyway. But at least there would be a storyline reason for why she and Dean don't connect. And maybe Dean can realize he doesn't like her either. Otherwise ... I got nothing.

I do not understand all this freaking tell, tell, telling about Sam having to be the lone leader. Why? He and Dean can't manage the bunker side by side? Sam has to be the only princess in the castle? It's stupid, why wouldn't Sam lean on the guy he knows can hunt circles around all those lame potentials taking up oxygen in the bunker? And I don't care about a single one of them - let them all get eaten, please.

Truthfully, I don't mind Sam being the one in charge of the potentials, since I don't care about them anyway - but not turning to Dean or getting Dean's help is illogical (not to use a pun, but there you go).

And the really funny thing is that, whether it was intentional or not, Dean was the one really calling the shots most of the time. He's the one who got Sam out of the bunker to look for Potential Maggie in the first place, since Sam seemed to think she was a goner right off the bat.

In FF'ing through all the crap, there was a germ of a decent episode here. The Djinn story was actually pretty good, especially him being an upgraded Michael monster version. I, of course, loved that Dean's the one who figured it all out and killed the thing. Dean and the daughter had great chemistry, and she was a good character in her own right. Whenever the brothers are allowed to work together, not discussing woobie Sam and his sleep deprivation issues, it feels back to classic basics and I like that. Which, again, is why it doesn't make sense that they're not working the potentials angle together in some capacity, even if it's just Sam getting Dean's input and help when he needs it.

IMO the Michael angle is something that they desperately need a whole helluva lot more of.  I agree the way the Djinn reacted to Dean's "nightmares" makes it look like Michael might still be inside of Dean - which he should, because there's no reason for him not to be other than a showrunner without vision. But given how Dabb did nothing whatsoever with the whole Dean/Amara angle, even though he allowed a hint here or there only to intend to let it fizzle out at the end, I'm not holding my breath. But, who knows, maybe given the ratings, they might be forced to actually perform a storyline miracle at the end.

This is a great post that, IMO, goes straight to the heart of all the problems with the writing so far this season, and without any sugar-coating of it, and I like that, so kudos for that, PAForrest.

And IA that the Dabb's showrunning history leaves little room for hope that the Dean/Michael connection might be re-visited except for, yes, the thought that the abysmal ratings for Dabbernatural might actually make a writing miracle become possible on this show by the season's end.

[Morgana]

Hi ---  New to posting here but I've been reading all the pages.  In response to comments about how bad a leader Sam is that he sent Maggie out on a hunt all by herself, well it had to be her and she had to be alone. Maggie is the only AU female character who has been shown repeatedly, and the only one that Dean might care a little about rescuing (seeing as how he got her through the vampire-infested tunnel and walked her to the settlement in the AU).  Now I'm not saying logically she should have been alone in a cemetery at night, but I'm saying from a fast and easy story writing perspective it makes sense.  (Not defending the writing, just pointing out why it had to be Maggie.)

[7kstar]

On 11/10/2018 at 9:02 AM, ILoveReading said:

Since Michael is giving monsters upgrades that changes their powers Sam's lectures and telling the hunters to do their homework is useless.  They didn't even consider the possibility of a Djinn because it didn't fit the pattern.  The only reason is because Dean recognized the rig.  Even, Sam and Dean as prepared as they are could never have prepared for that hunt.   On a hunt, knowledge is important but so if flexibility.  You have to be able to adapt on the fly.  Like when their plan for the hell house went sideways.  This is why I felt they were effective as a team in the early seasons.  But not its seems like the gap is widening because its coming across as a competition that knowledge vs experiences  rather than them complementing them for working together.   Experience is what solved this case.

Dean may not want to think about Michael and what he did, but Dean would never shy away from it if he felt it could help.

6

IA with the bolded and I think this is the problem the writers aren't getting.  They don't need to beat us over the head with Sam is a great leader because he's not being shown that is true.  Also not sleeping means he'll miss more and not be able to be there for his brother or help him.

I've never thought Jared had the depth that Jensen has as an actor.  He has moments that he shines but he has trouble making what is on the page work unless it fits his acting style and he has had some really great moments over the years.  He shows the concern for Dean here.  But looks as if he doesn't have a clue how to help anyone.  Maybe were supposed to see the burden that Dean's carried for years and how it will now effect Sam that he has the burden of leadership.  But I'm not sure I care.

Although I don't hate Mary and Bobby, I do hate what they are doing with them.  One line of caring doesn't wipe out years of actions that showed she wanted to be a hunter more than a mother to her grown sons.  I blame the writing.

 

I do think that they did some really good things in this ep.  I am wondering what is up with Dean, is his nightmare the nightmare for all monsters?  Is he protected, so much is up in the air.  He got the kill and wasn't the campy funny dude.  Still shows he is with it enough to figure it out and take action.  Maybe he went overboard, but why did he go overboard at the end?  Is it a secret he's keeping...or something else?

I think they could have solved the issue with Maggie if she had had an hunter watching her back at a distance.  Then the hunter either dies or goes missing.  IA that Sam has been trained not to let young hunters do it alone.  It didn't make sense.

I will watch parts of this one again.  It wasn't the best but it wasn't the worst one either.  It doesn't feel as if the head writer is keeping tabs on the past or what is going on now.  It feels as if it is disjointed with what they think they are telling and what they are really telling us the viewers to feel.

I did want Dean to tell Sam, "Dude you've got to get more sleep or you can't lead.  Dead on your feet, you're bound to make mistakes.  Deadly ones."

[Myrelle]

So I watched this one again today and I don't think that Michael is still in Dean.

The "You..." from the djinn appeared to me to be more of something that he was going to say concerning his astonishment at the fact that Dean was able to fight back against his attempt at reading Dean's mind.

IOW, he was stunned at that turn of events and he was probably going to say something like "You...how did you do that?!" or You...shouldn't have been able to do that!" or "You...stopped me!...How?!..."

[Casseiopeia]

I did love the way this episode was shot.  There was some really beautiful cinematography. 

 

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I did love the way this episode was shot.  There was some really beautiful cinematography. 

 

[Casseiopeia]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I did love the way this episode was shot.  There was some really beautiful cinematography. 

 

 

[tessathereaper]

On 11/9/2018 at 9:46 PM, MysteryGuest said:

Just finished watching the episode.  I enjoyed it.  We know they've been leading up to something between Mary and Bobby, so I'm not too surprised by the turn of events.  The reality is that it's a good way to get them off the screen for a few weeks, so they can work in some of the other supporting cast.  We have yet to see Ketch, Charlie, Rowena, etc., so they need to space things out.  Bobby was injured and Mary's gone off with him until he's healed.  I have no problem with that.  It's not as if Sam and Dean need their mommy around.  I think we're supposed to assume they've worked through their issues, and this is now the relationship they have.  It's not so much mother and sons, but fellow hunters.  I can live with that.

As for Sam and his leadership role, it's a work in progress.  We know he doesn't take to it naturally, but he's working at it.  He has admitted in the past that following was always easier for him, and he's trying to change that.  I don't see how Sam's learning to be a leader takes anything away from the fact that Dean has pretty much always been a leader.  Dean's value isn't lessened by Sam's taking on a new role.  No one is saying that somehow Dean can't cut it anymore.  I just don't see it as a competition.

I like the idea of the super monsters.  It allows us to get back to some good old fashioned monster hunts, but ups the ante a bit with their new powers.  Building off of the BMOL model is a smart idea.  I don't know if we're really supposed to recognize some of these extra hunters yet, but most don't stand out to me.  The girl from this week's episode is pretty much the only one who's stuck with me.

I would say with regards to whatever the writers are doing, I'd ask them - Why does Sam need to have the leadership role? Why does it need to be a work in progress? Dean is here.  Dean's done it, Dean's better at it.  Dean doesn't need all the freaking "propping" and pep talks(and heaven forbid any of us would like to see him get one once in a while, there are a million reasons for why he doesn't need them them or there just isn't time and there are more important things to do).  The more they try and push Sam as the leader, as this episode shows IMO, the less he looks like one.  Dean just stands there(you know, sucking up all the air) and he comes across as more of a leader.  You either are one or you aren't one.  Sam's not one, IMO.  He never has been and they can hang a sign with flashing lights saying "Almighty Perfect Leader" around his neck, it still won't make him come across as one.

Why does Sam need it if Dean can already do it and what else is that saying but that Dean "can't cut it anymore"?  Sam's taking on a new role.  Well it's Dean's role.  Why should Sam get to take on Dean's role?  Esp when they have Dean doing jacksquat beyond propping up Sam.   

Frankly the newbies never needed a leader, and if they did, they had Bobby and Mary.  I mean Dean was only gone a few weeks.  The only thing ANY of them should have been doing in that few weeks was adjusting to a new world, a new world they could only come to because Dean SAVED everyone, not just Sam and Jack, when he took on Michael.   That should have been the only thing they were capable of doing, it's not a small thing jumping into a whole new reality, esp one that was not directly in an apocalyptic war.  Down time and decompression.  Not creating this "hunter central" to give Sam an excuse to "lead" someone.  And all Sam should have been doing in that time was trying to figure out where Michael was--because even if he wasn't in Dean's body, Michael was clearly THE biggest fish they had to fry.  Perhaps with a bit of help from some of the more experienced AU'ers with regards to info on anything they knew about their Michael.  

And there has always been a degree of playing the Martyr in any of Sam's big storylines, this time they pulled out the fanfic time tested "not eating or sleeping" beloved of 12 year olds everywhere(which is OK when you are 12) but even drinking demon blood had Sam playing the martyr  with his this isn't for me, I'm doing it to help people thing.  There are other examples.

[tessathereaper]

On 11/10/2018 at 12:27 AM, SueB said:

I'm not sure Mary's departure was as anti-Mom as others have expressed. First, the show needs both she and Bobby off-screen so they can afford other actors.  So she was always going to be gone. Then, they have her first spend time with Sam 1 on 1 in the episode (as the episode focus really was on "Leader Sam").  

Finally there's the goodbye scene (dialog from iTunes closed captioning):
 

Her body language, the direct looking into Dean's eyes... all were expressions of support for Dean and what he's dealing with.  Now ITA they should have shown her talking about his trauma at least once.  Or made some comment about "Mom's been talking to me..." to show they've had some discussion, directly, about what happened.  They've failed to do this.  But I think Mary demonstrated concern for Dean in that goodbye scene.  And Bobby is wounded and will need help for a while.  Plus his head is not on straight -- she made it clear to Sam she thinks Bobby is trying to get himself clear.

OTOH, Dean's "Be happy." is actually quite concerning.  His body language says he's okay with it, but I think it's a fair interpretation that he's just as happy with her on the sidelines rather than directly fighting Michael.  To me, he still is demonstraiting that he thinks his problems are HIS -- alone.  And that he doesn't want to be a burden.  That's not a good mental state for him.  And Sam needs to focus on the Michael hunt more.  His "I'll sleep two" (instead of three hours) was him being overwhelmed with everything going on.  

What Sam REALLY needs to have the hunters doing is gathering intel (in pairs) rather than engaging.  Figure out who has been amped up, what is the extent/type of monster army already built?  Is it continuing to propigate and how?

But show pacing is going to stretch out that answer for a while.  Mid-season at least, I would think. 

In sum, I think Mary demonstrated concern for Dean but the script and the externally driven factors did not have any direct on-screen support for him.
Dean being "okay" with Mary leaving is yet another sign that he's isolating himself in this problem.  Which I certainly understand his instinct, but his family should try to make it everyone's priority, not just Dean's.
Sam is overwhelmed.  
  

ETA:  Dean 'sucking the air out of the room' really WAS palpable.  I think it's designed to help us feel his isolation.

 

I don't think Mary showed genuine concern for Dean.  I think she came across as going through the motions.   It's like she knew she was leaving and she didn't really want to seem like a cold, uncaring person so she said the words she was supposed to say, which would only take a few minutes after all but really she didn't care all that much, it was definitely a very low priority for her but she knew what motions to go through and so she did it.  People do it all the time.  Normally its for people they aren't that closely related to but its what people do all the time when leaving "Oh yes we'll keep it in touch, you just call if you need anything, we'll make plans to get together, I'll text you, see you in a few weeks".  That's what Mary was doing IMO.

I think Dean to some extent did the same thing, he knew she didn't really care, he loves her, but he knows she's just going through the motions, so he was just trying to keep it short so she and Bobby could go do whatever they were going to do.  Dean's at the point where he's stopped expecting his mother to have any interest at all in him personally.  That's not him isolating himself, that's him accepting the reality of the last 2 seasons.

The only thing I feel is the writers taking away Dean's natural role, for no good or natural reason, and so every time he stands there, exuding leadership with his very presence, while someone else, who clearly is NOT leadership material is giving all the orders and getting all sorts of overblown praise, it feels weird and uncomfortable. 

That's the only air I feel going leaving, whatever air was left in the tires of the writers' credibility.

[7kstar]

On 11/9/2018 at 11:27 PM, SueB said:

I'm not sure Mary's departure was as anti-Mom as others have expressed. First, the show needs both she and Bobby off-screen so they can afford other actors.  So she was always going to be gone. Then, they have her first spend time with Sam 1 on 1 in the episode (as the episode focus really was on "Leader Sam").  

Finally there's the goodbye scene (dialog from iTunes closed captioning):
 

Quote

MARY: "Boys. Um.. we need to talk."
(later)
Dialog about using Donna’s cabin then, as Bobby is apologizing to Sam…

MARY (to Dean): "We’ll… We’ll just be a few weeks. As soon as Bobby is back on his feet.."

DEAN: "Hey, I know."

MARY:  "If you need anything—anything (puts her hand on his chest) I’m just half a day’s drive –"

If you were just looking at this ep, I would agree.   I think that is the issue with the writing.  They aren't looking at the long-term big picture they have created.   I think they think they have redeemed Mary but too many actions have played against this, so it keeps failing. 

I teach and I see many people in leadership positions that don't get the big picture and miss many issues and then are shocked when certain issues go wrong.  I think the writers have a vision of what they are doing that doesn't match what fans are seeing.  They have shown us, Mary, trying to connect to Sam and help him, but then fail to give the same to Dean.  So this bit of dialogue falls flat and doesn't satisfy.  There are many ways to fix it. 

(May be a poor example but I tried....LOL)

Mom:  Dean I'm trying really but I connected with a little boy and we both know your not that little boy.  I want to say I'm proud of you but what did I really do to raise you?  I think we're alike in some ways, neither of us wants to talk about our feelings.  If you want to talk, call me.  

Not that happy with the dialogue but then I'm not a professional writer.  I think it is possible and wouldn't take much, just adding a few lines, and we would start to see how she has grown.  I'm fine with her struggling to find her place with grown men.  It wouldn't be solved in a few years.  But it doesn't feel organic in how they are trying to tell the story.  So fans are split.  I wish they had done a better job so I would be satisfied with what they gave us.  I'm not angry with her going off with Bobby, really just indifferent.  I want to care about her and Bobby but they haven't made me connect with all the mix signals they have written.  JMV.

[devlin]

I really hope dean rejects Mary, if on the off chance she does try and make contact. The way dean behaved around Mary after she said her goodbyes gives me some hope 

[juppschmitz]

Did you realize how they played "Dean's theme" in the background when Mary was leaving? Way to cheapen the emotional impact of that theme.

[Aeryn13]

Yes, I thought "not for the ice-queen, yuck".

[hunenka]

On 10. 11. 2018 at 2:24 AM, ILoveReading said:

The most WTF line of the ep was when Dean gives Sam credit for bringing Maggie home.   What exactly did Sam do in this ep expect get multiple reinforcement speeches from multiple people. 

I was thinking the same thing. I suppose Dean telling Sam “You did this, you got her home” as if it was solely thanks to Sam (instead of a team effort with Dean doing most of the heavy lifting, including motivating Sam to keep looking) was an attempt to boost Sam’s spirits since Dean saw how all the criticism of his leadership skills was bringing Sam down.

Which I can understand from the perspective of an older brother trying to protect his younger sibling, but the problem is that a lot of the criticism of Sam’s leadership skills was valid, and Sam could really use some pointers—especially from Dean, who actually knows what he’s doing, leadership-wise.

[hunenka]

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So I watched this one again today and I don't think that Michael is still in Dean.

The "You..." from the djinn appeared to me to be more of something that he was going to say concerning his astonishment at the fact that Dean was able to fight back against his attempt at reading Dean's mind.

IOW, he was stunned at that turn of events and he was probably going to say something like "You...how did you do that?!" or You...shouldn't have been able to do that!" or "You...stopped me!...How?!..."

Personally, I think so too. But the problem with trying to figure out what the djinn’s “You…” and shocked expression meant is that the actor playing the djinn probably didn’t know what he was reacting to either.

We’ve heard it countless times from (guest) stars on the show that they weren’t informed about what their character’s motivation, intentions or plans are, often because the writers didn’t yet know either but wanted to add some mystery and suspense. And I imagine that’s only gotten worse under Dabb’s leadership...

[ILoveReading]

https://faridamestek.blogspot.com/2018/11/supernatural-s14e4-review-with-spoilers_10.html

Here is a really good review of the ep and points to a lot things I've been feeling. 

The only thing I really disagree with is that the show is trying to erase Sam and Dean.  I feel like its just Dean but that is a topic for another thread.

Edited November 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

I agree with article. It should be tweeted to Dabb. Dean and Sam are no longer attached to the storyline.

And I think the reason Dean and his mother haven't had any conversations is because of the actresses'  inability to project warmth.  So Dean has heart to hearts with the guest star (daughter in this episode).

Edited November 12, 2018 by Pondlass1

[RileyMay]

On 10/11/2018 at 6:03 PM, catrox14 said:

It is hilarious to me that the show has chosen to completely ignore Not!Bobby's big speech to stay here only long enough to regroup and go back to save the rest of them and that he's now trying to find another way to live.  That legitimately makes me LOL and have zero respect for Not!Bobby who I kind of liked when he was first introduced. 

 

Sam is not a natural leader. He's not doing it by choice but beause no one else wanted the job. He's a natural teacher so why can't they just let him do that - teach the potentials about monsters and hunting and let Bobby lead. If we'd seen Sam chose to step up and lead then it would probably feel more organic than the fact that he was the only one left and got lumbered with it.

Dean's in no state to take over and lead but give him something to do. Let him train Jack now Bobby's off playing house with Mary.

[juppschmitz]

4 minutes ago, RileyMay said:

Let him train Jack now Bobby's off playing house with Mary.

It'll have to be something else - Jack has the galloping consumptiin, don't you remember?

[ILoveReading]

31 minutes ago, RileyMay said:

Dean's in no state to take over and lead but give him something to do.

I'd disagree, because if I ignore the tell and go with the show, Dean was the one calling the shots this episode.  He kept Sam from falling apart.  He helped the guest star with her problems, he figured out what the bad guy was and figured out a way to stop him.  

 

Dean is a lot stronger than the show gives him credit for.  He's seems to be holding it together better better than Sam, whose on the verge of collapse.

Edited November 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd disagree, because if I ignore the tell and go with the show, Dean was the one calling the shots this episode.  He kept Sam from falling apart.  He helped the guest star with her problems, he figured out what the bad guy was and figured out a way to stop him.  

Dean is a lot stronger than the show gives him credit for.  He's seems to be holding it together better better than Sam, whose on the verge of collapse. 

I truly wish Dabb* could be made to see this. What they are telling is the exact opposite of what they are showing. Shades of S10 Zomg! Dean is cray cray!!! when he was actually dealing pretty well right up til Charlie got herself killed. The bolded just seems so obvious, that Mary's OTT praise of Sam's natural-born leadership was laughable.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RileyMay said:

He's not doing it by choice but beause no one else wanted the job.

Was it ever shown that no one else wanted the job or is this just an assumption? I'm not being snarky. I'm genuinely asking because I don't recollect it being shown or said that it was offered up to someone else who said they couldn't do it. 

[Casseiopeia]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Was it ever shown that no one else wanted the job or is this just an assumption? I'm not being snarky. I'm genuinely asking because I don't recollect it being shown or said that it was offered up to someone else who said they couldn't do it. 

It kind of had to be Dabb.  There really wasn't anyone else.  He was head writer and had already taken over when Carver departed.  Of the current writing staff only Brad and Eugenie had more tenure and at that point they certainly didn't want to turn the show over to them.  I think he ended up showrunner by default.  Possibly Berens but I think from the get go Dabb had been promised his own show to produce  (WS) while Berens would be his showrunner after SPN was finished at 300 episodes.

I remember speculating on another site when Carver left on who would be our dream showrunner.  I kind of liked John Shiban at the time.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[MysteryGuest]

I think Dean pretty clearly displayed his disinterest in taking on the role of "Chief" or mentor for the AU Gang in this episode.  Sam is the one who saw and was impressed by the BMOL way of doing things (aside from all of their crazy shit).  Dean really never took to it, and prefers to do things with just the two of them, or TFW.  He's not thrilled about having all of those people in the Bunker.  I'm interested to see how that plays out.

As for Bobby's promise to return to the AU to fight Michael, since Michael is now in our world, I appreciate the fact that he's staying here to help.  The writers aren't really fleshing out the characters very well, so I don't have a real feel for what Bobby's role is now, but I have to assume he was doing more than just keeping Mary occupied.  Maybe we'll actually get to see some of what all of these people are now doing.

[gonzosgirrl]

57 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It kind of had to be Dabb.  There really wasn't anyone else.  He was head writer and had already taken over when Carver departed.  Of the current writing staff only Brad and Eugenie had more tenure and at that point they certainly didn't want to turn the show over to them.  I think he ended up showrunner by default.  Possibly Berens but I think from the get go Dabb had been promised his own show to produce  (WS) while Berens would be his showrunner after SPN was finished at 300 episodes.

I remember speculating on another site when Carver left on who would be our dream showrunner.  I kind of liked John Shiban at the time.

I think they were talking about Sam, not Dabb?

But I like your spec. :)

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

It kind of had to be Dabb.  There really wasn't anyone else.  He was head writer and had already taken over when Carver departed.  Of the current writing staff only Brad and Eugenie had more tenure and at that point they certainly didn't want to turn the show over to them.  I think he ended up showrunner by default.  Possibly Berens but I think from the get go Dabb had been promised his own show to produce  (WS) while Berens would be his showrunner after SPN was finished at 300 episodes.

I remember speculating on another site when Carver left on who would be our dream showrunner.  I kind of liked John Shiban at the time.

I was referring to Sam here. Sorry for any confusion.

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Dean pretty clearly displayed his disinterest in taking on the role of "Chief" or mentor for the AU Gang in this episode.  Sam is the one who saw and was impressed by the BMOL way of doing things (aside from all of their crazy shit).  Dean really never took to it, and prefers to do things with just the two of them, or TFW.  He's not thrilled about having all of those people in the Bunker.  I'm interested to see how that plays out.

I was referring to Sam doing it from the jump after Dean went missing , who wouldn't  have been around to say not to the role. And he's not going to usurp it from Sam at this point. he only reason for it's existence is Sam wanted it to be a thing. The idea from someone else was that no one else wanted to do it. But there was Mary and Not Bobby who together would have been co leaders.

[DeeDee79]

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

https://faridamestek.blogspot.com/2018/11/supernatural-s14e4-review-with-spoilers_10.html

Here is a really good review of the ep and points to a lot things I've been feeling. 

The only thing I really disagree with is that the show is trying to erase Sam and Dean.  I feel like its just Dean but that is a topic for another thread.

Thanks for posting this review; there were a lot of good observations and I agree with most of them.

[Casseiopeia]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think they were talking about Sam, not Dabb?

But I like your spec. :)

Oops

[Casseiopeia]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was referring to Sam doing it from the jump after Dean went missing , who wouldn't  have been around to say not to the role. And he's not going to usurp it from Sam at this point. he only reason for it's existence is Sam wanted it to be a thing. The idea from someone else was that no one else wanted to do it. But there was Mary and Not Bobby who together would have been co leaders.

Sorry I read Dabb and thought you were talking about him.

As to Sam being in charge of the AU hunters I am seeing him more as an advisor, RW Bobby/Garth figure and a Bunker Librarian.  Kind of like the MOL's were described in S8.  Where the MOL's members worked with hunters (just without the bigotry).  I think the general/leader/chief moniker doesn't really describe what Sam is doing.  At least for me.

[MysteryGuest]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was referring to Sam doing it from the jump after Dean went missing , who wouldn't  have been around to say not to the role. And he's not going to usurp it from Sam at this point. he only reason for it's existence is Sam wanted it to be a thing. The idea from someone else was that no one else wanted to do it. But there was Mary and Not Bobby who together would have been co leaders.

I guess I just don't see the big deal over Sam taking on this leadership role, considering the circumstances.  Why would he just sit back and let Mary and Bobby run the show?  He's the only one who's been through multiple world-ending crises (with Dean not around).  It just makes sense to me.  I'm not crazy about how they're portraying it, simply because on one hand he's this strong leader, and yet they're also trying to show us that he's semi falling apart because of it.  I'm not sure what the end result of this storyline is going to be.  But it would definitely be weirder to me if Sam had stayed on the sidelines and allowed someone else, other than Dean, to take the lead.  

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, RileyMay said:

Dean's in no state to take over and lead but give him something to do. Let him train Jack now Bobby's off playing house with Mary.

 

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd disagree, because if I ignore the tell and go with the show, Dean was the one calling the shots this episode.  He kept Sam from falling apart.  He helped the guest star with her problems, he figured out what the bad guy was and figured out a way to stop him.  

 

Dean is a lot stronger than the show gives him credit for.  He's seems to be holding it together better better than Sam, whose on the verge of collapse.

 

I have to agree with ILOVEREADING here.

What this episode showed me is that Sam can only be a temporary leader on his own because it was Dean who pushed this entire hunt to find Maggie even in the face of such dire odds against her still being alive.

And his giving all the credit to Sam for having brought her home was again shown to be a blatant back-up statement of Dean being there for Sam, in whatever way Sam needed him to be and as Dean promised at the end of the previous episode.

What's missing is Sam recognizing that he so sorely needs Dean to help him do this whole "leadership" thing-because Dean's always been pretty good at it, himself-and this, even though no one has ever actually or literally recognized it as a strength of Dean's.

I think this is where this storyline should go, organically, at this point; but I highly doubt that this is any part of Dabb's plan at all, tbh.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd disagree, because if I ignore the tell and go with the show, Dean was the one calling the shots this episode.  He kept Sam from falling apart.  He helped the guest star with her problems, he figured out what the bad guy was and figured out a way to stop him.  

 

Dean is a lot stronger than the show gives him credit for.  He's seems to be holding it together better better than Sam, whose on the verge of collapse.

Dean's almost always the one holding it together better than Sam, even when he's the one whose just been traumatized.  It was like that in Season 4 and other seasons too.  Dean doesn't have to "try" to be a leader, he just is one - whether he's at 100 percent or not.  That's what I saw in this episode, again, too.  And that's not weird - that's what happens in real life too - most of the time the leader, if they are a leader due to presence and charisma and ability, and not because of say political maneuvering or just moving up in rank(or failing upward in the corporate world lol), ie if he's or she is a natural leader like Dean is, then they are basically the leader even if they aren't at 100 percent health because it's just what they are.  It's just unnatural, and I feel like this episode showed it most strongly to date, to have Dean standing around NOT leading while his very presence exudes leadership, just so Sam can do it badly and show how much of a NOT natural leader he is.(Because it's seem almost 100 percent likely that the storyline the writers want to tell is not that that Sam is NOT good at this, they clearly want to convince the audience he's taken to this leadership thing like a duck to water but they've already shown he's not). 

[tessathereaper]

16 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I just don't see the big deal over Sam taking on this leadership role, considering the circumstances.  Why would he just sit back and let Mary and Bobby run the show?  He's the only one who's been through multiple world-ending crises (with Dean not around).  It just makes sense to me.  I'm not crazy about how they're portraying it, simply because on one hand he's this strong leader, and yet they're also trying to show us that he's semi falling apart because of it.  I'm not sure what the end result of this storyline is going to be.  But it would definitely be weirder to me if Sam had stayed on the sidelines and allowed someone else, other than Dean, to take the lead.  

But no one had to be the leader of these people.  Nothing we've seen was necessary.  Why would these people all jump straight into hunting on a world they didn't even know?  Honestly the whole little "beehive of hunting activity" seems sort weird and not organic.  It's like it's been created from full cloth just to give Sam something to (badly) lead.  

The only show Mary and Bobby would be running would be helping their people deal with what they'd just been through now that they have a chance to be relatively safe.  None of these people have to be or IMO even should be hunting in our world certainly not as quickly as we were shown they were.  They either don't exist on our world, are dead on our world or their dopplegangers are out there somewhere.  Who knows what kind of problems could end up opening up due to that. 

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

But no one had to be the leader of these people.  Nothing we've seen was necessary.  Why would these people all jump straight into hunting on a world they didn't even know?  Honestly the whole little "beehive of hunting activity" seems sort weird and not organic.  It's like it's been created from full cloth just to give Sam something to (badly) lead.  

The only show Mary and Bobby would be running would be helping their people deal with what they'd just been through now that they have a chance to be relatively safe.  None of these people have to be or IMO even should be hunting in our world certainly not as quickly as we were shown they were.  They either don't exist on our world, are dead on our world or their dopplegangers are out there somewhere.  Who knows what kind of problems could end up opening up due to that. 

I have to disagree here.  Considering Michael, who almost completely destroyed their world, is now on the loose in the new world they're in, I don't see them as even remotely safe.  They know all too well what he's capable of, and they can't just go back to their world whenever they want to.  They're stuck here with Michael...again.  I'm not going to argue that the dialogue couldn't have been better.  The writing could always be better.  But Sam's becoming the "leader" of this band of misfits simply does not seem all that farfetched to me.  

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But it would definitely be weirder to me if Sam had stayed on the sidelines and allowed someone else, other than Dean, to take the lead.  

The original comment I was replying to from @RileyMay suggested that there was no one else to do this job.  My point is that the job didn't exist until Sam created it. The newbie hunters were not in the bunker as of s13 finale (which I think was mentioned elsewhere in this thread).

Why would Sam choose the 3 weeks after Dean went missing to start up this new training? And why is he running himself ragged when he has people to help him?  If Sam was worried about not being able to hunt himself because he would be spending time looking for Michael!Dean, then he could turn to Mary and Not!Bobby.  Did he ask them and they opted out? I can't imagine they would do that, especially Mary, who would hunt no matter what was happening at home, you know? Why not engage the veteran hunters that he already knew to see if they would take more cases thus freeing himself up to devote time to searching for Michael?

Plot wise, it seems like a really bad time to start a new unit that requires so much hands on management from Sam unless he never thought Dean was coming back and he just moved on?  I wonder if it was on the DL that Michael possessed Dean.  I mean outside of Mary, NotBobby, Cas, Jack, Lucifer, Jody (and I guess the WS) and Sam who amongst the hunter community knew about it? Did Sam do all this to hide it?

Sam doesn't need to be in this position at all but Dabb et al wants him to be in this position and it's just the weirdest SL for Sam right now.  That's all I'm saying.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Sam doesn't need to be in this position at all but Dabb et al wants him to be in this position and it's just the weirdest SL for Sam right now.  That's all I'm saying.

My guess is that Sam had been in panic mode looking for Dean, in addition to having all of these people in the Bunker.  People he also felt responsible for.  I would guess that part of his need to "control" some of it was out of self-preservation.  Unfortunately, we haven't yet been privy to much of what went on when Dean was possessed by Michael.  We were plopped down into the plot weeks after we had left off last season.  I can only hope that we will get at least a glimpse of what happened during that timespan to account for why Sam did what he did, and what Dean/Michael was up to during that time.  

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I just don't see the big deal over Sam taking on this leadership role, considering the circumstances.  Why would he just sit back and let Mary and Bobby run the show?  He's the only one who's been through multiple world-ending crises (with Dean not around).  It just makes sense to me.  I'm not crazy about how they're portraying it, simply because on one hand he's this strong leader, and yet they're also trying to show us that he's semi falling apart because of it.  I'm not sure what the end result of this storyline is going to be.  But it would definitely be weirder to me if Sam had stayed on the sidelines and allowed someone else, other than Dean, to take the lead.  

Moving to BvJ because we're going off topic here.

[MysteryGuest]

I think at this point, we can just agree to disagree.  I thought the episode was decent, and am looking forward to seeing where they go from here.  I'm ready to move on to some of the other characters.  I'd like to know what's going on with Jack, and I actually miss Ketch.  Never thought I'd say that.

Edited November 13, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[tessathereaper]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to disagree here.  Considering Michael, who almost completely destroyed their world, is now on the loose in the new world they're in, I don't see them as even remotely safe.  They know all too well what he's capable of, and they can't just go back to their world whenever they want to.  They're stuck here with Michael...again.  I'm not going to argue that the dialogue couldn't have been better.  The writing could always be better.  But Sam's becoming the "leader" of this band of misfits simply does not seem all that farfetched to me.  

I know they can't go back to their world yet BUT how they are any less safe than anyone else on our world? In fact one could say they are potentially a danger to our world, running around from another world that was not our world, hunting but with barely the necessarily skills because Sam runs it like a college course "Hunting for Beginners - you too will be hunting monsters in 3 short weeks!".   What if they bump into their "dead in their world" husband or child?  What if someone from here bumps into their dead in OUR world relative or friend?  What if in our world the person is a criminal?  

They aren't misfits, they are nothing, they are personalityless gang.  They are just there to give the show a reason to call Sam "Chief" even though he's a terrible leader.  That's why it's farfetched.  There is no organic reason for it.  They didn't need to be led.  They needed to sit the heck down and keep a low profile. Why they had Sam throwing them out there hunting within weeks of coming to a new world is absolutely beyond me.  Esp when Michael frankly has been a total afterthought, even when he was still in Dean.  Clearly Michael is in no way a priority here.  

I think this episode showed most clearly of all how forced and inorganic this storyline "Sam the Chief" storyline is.

Edited November 13, 2018 by tessathereaper

[Wynne88]

Nobody in their right mind would have let someone like Maggie go out on their first hunt alone.  And that's not the only reason that I agree that leadership isn't Sam's thing.  He would make a good teacher, or logistician, or researcher, but shoe-horning his character into a leadership role leaves me bored.  It's like the writers are coloring by number, and Jared can't do anything to bring it to life.  

I hate having all those people in the bunker.  I'd feel the same way if a bunch of strangers invaded my home.  Guess they need somebody for the souped up monsters to kill.

How did that knife not kill Bobby?  Not only in terms of placement, but his whole weight was hanging on it.  Pity.  I personally don't like all the best characters that they've killed off in the past showing up again.  I cared about them in their original persona's, but it would be a lot easier to develop an interest in a new character than have to try to keep remembering that a character who looks just like a previous edition is actually somebody else.

Despite my gripes, there were parts I enjoyed and I thought the casting of the daughter and nurse was excellent.

[Bergamot]

47 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Why they had Sam throwing them out there hunting within weeks of coming to a new world is absolutely beyond me.  Esp when Michael frankly has been a total afterthought, even when he was still in Dean.  Clearly Michael is in no way a priority here.  

Yes. You would think the AU people might be fixated on the problem of Michael, but there has not been a single indication that any of them are concerned about him or that they have even asked anything about him. They seem perfectly happy to spend their time going on practice hunts for rugarus and ghouls, and in between they just hang out in the bunker. Because being a hunter is awesome!

One scene in the episode which I intensely disliked was the one where Mary earnestly and approvingly tells Sam that leading the hunters is "what he was born to do." Not so much because of the heavy-handedness of the writers on this subject (although it is incredibly tiresome.) But I couldn't help but remember that moment in "In The Beginning" -- that excruciating, exquisitely painful moment when Mary says to Dean, not knowing that he is her son, "This job, this life, I hate it.....You know the worst thing I can think of? The very worst thing? Is for my children to be raised into this like I was."

That important, powerful, pivotal moment, for both the character of Mary and for the show, has now been overwritten for me by this one, with Mary being as pleased as punch at the thought of Sam not only having been raised as a hunter, but teaching others to become hunters. (And anyway, what happened to "Screw destiny, right in the face?" Didn't that used to be like, one of the major themes of the show?)

And that ties into another scene in the episode that I hated, the one at the end where Dean reassures Sam that Maggie (because she "learned from the best" -- seriously, writers, can you give it a rest?) "can't wait to get back in the saddle". And Sam's reaction is like "Huh, cool." Because there is nothing more awesome than having a young girl like Maggie dedicate her life to hunting.

I mean, Sam and Dean certainly don't want to see someone like that settle down, live a normal, safe life, go out on dates, maybe go back to school. Remember when Sam turned down a free ride to Stanford, because there was nothing more that he wanted after the way he was raised than to "get back in the saddle" to hunt with his family, and what a happy moment that was? Or am I remembering a different show?

I remember when Dean, speaking to Veritas, described the life of a hunter this way: "You're covered in blood until you're covered in your own blood. Half the time, you're about to die. Like right now." And he told her that it wasn't a lie that he wanted out, that he wanted a family, but that it was too late for him.

Remember Dean trying to warn Patience that the hunting life was "nothing but pain, horror and death"? Now girls like Maggie wanting to be a hunter is something to celebrate, apparently. Again, something that goes to the heart of the show has been overwritten. If they keep scooping out the insides of the show like this, pretty soon nothing will be left but a hollow shell. And that's a shame.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Bergamot

[tennisgurl]

Maggie going off alone on a hunt is just ridiculous. Not only is hunting on your own dangerous (yeah, people have done it, but most of them are dead), but Maggie doesn't seem particularly well trained in self defense, nor did she have any weapons more advanced than a few knives. So Sam has an elaborate check in system, but no buddy system? Especially for a petite young person who has very little hunting experience? 

All of these AU people honestly blur together for me, none of them really stand out. The woman Cas had a plot with a few weeks ago was the only one I really noticed in a good way, and we still haven't seen her again. They all just seem like cannon fodder to die or be saved, and for Sam to angst about when they inevitably all get killed off. And all these new people take screen time away from the characters we actually care about, and their relationships. Like, how are we getting all of this romance crap with AU Bobby and Mary, when we should be getting Mary trying to bond with her sons? Its not interesting, and just continues to make Mary look like an idiot who doesn't care about her sons. Its all so pointless. 

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, RileyMay said:

Dean's in no state to take over and lead but give him something to do. Let him train Jack now Bobby's off playing house with Mary.

I don't see where Dean is no shape to hunt or take other duties, aside from him saying he's not up for it. He withdrew from the people in the bunker because they are strangers to him, which was resolved when Sam coaxed him out for the hunt in Mint Condition. And here he was savvy, smart and figured out it was a djinn before anyone else. He said they needed to save Maggie and yet he gavr the credit to Sam. He didn't behave "dickishly" towards anyone so I don't think he's a danger to himself or anyone else, and he made sure the djinn was dead by shooting him multiple times after beating him with a blunt instrument given he didn't have a knife dipped in lamb's blood. And he  apparently is able able to reverse powers or fight back in some way that he couldn't before. (Maybe it was Michael or as others have suggested some kind of protection or upgrade given to him by Michael)

So the show itself wrote Dean as being capable, showing empathy for the daughter, and giving her some sage advice.

And he did all of that whilst still giving Sam credit and defending him... Now if Dean does not want to be the organizational leader there is room for him to mentor hunters but it wouldn't be because he's in no shape. It would be because he chooses to opt out, which IMO is fair. That said I don't see Dean allowing someone to go alone again and I'm hoping Sam learned his lesson on that point.