S14.E03: The Scar

[Lemuria]

Many of the posters here have already touched upon my many with this episode so I won't annoy people by repeating them here.  I do have a question, which may have been "explained" in a quick comment in the show that I missed (I admit that some of it, especially the Jack sections, had me crossing my eyes), but where the heck is the Mother of the Year?  We know she knows Dean's back; she was there when Dean showed up and this latest ep took place apparently right after that (he was still wearing his Michael clothes).  So...nu??  That's it, she's done?

Wait, maybe she's off finding someone else's offspring--like Asa Fox and Jack--that she can feel maternal about, instead of having to deal with that weak bully ( (tm) for the carefully-coiffed, shampoo'd and conditioned, neatly dressed Wild One.  Apparently, Berens idea of living roughly off the land is staying at a Motel 6 instead of the Ritz).  

Speaking of the Whiny Nougat Woobie (hereinafter referred to as WNW), he really needs to be coddled less.  He may only have been around for about 2 years but that does not make him a toddler.  He may lack knowledge of our world or being human but he does not lack comprehension.  He doesn't seem to be learning all that quickly.

Especially as he has lost his powers and he doesn't seem to be all that interested in learning how to do things (like hunt) the hard way.  We saw him train really briefly with Bobby and not do all that well.  When we next see him talking to Cas, he's not all about keeping on training the way humans do, that's (apparently) too much like work.  All he wants to know is when he can get what he got from Lucifer back.  

It's really time that the people around him stopped clucking and going "There, there, you poor baby.  You're really a super special snowflake.  We're just lucky to have you in our midst."  He needs to learn the lesson that Doctor Strange finally learned (the most important one of all, according to the Ancient One):  "It's not about you." 

And he was getting ready to--I don't know, run away?--because Dean, for a moment, was blunt with him.  Dean was right but he shouldn't have been the first person to say it.  If Sam is the leader of this group, then he was the one who needed to step up to the plate and make the tough choice but he hasn't.  He let Jack and Maggie go along as two members of a small group (that should have had two real fighters in their place) in ep 1 into a known demon trap because--why?  He didn't want to hurt their feelings? 

Jack may now decide to stay because, look, he's really smart and can do stuff and he's getting praise.  There is, to me, a difference between positive reinforcement and gushing.  Jack will never really mature if he doesn't get criticism when he needs it along with praise when he deserves it.

An open question:  how long do you think John Winchester would have tolerated the whining of the WNW?

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I do have a question, which may have been "explained" in a quick comment in the show that I missed (I admit that some of it, especially the Jack sections, had me crossing my eyes), but where the heck is the Mother of the Year? 

She and Not!Bobby stayed behind to clean up the bodies at the church. No need to be around her son who just returned to them after archangel possession. Pshhh.

[Casseiopeia]

On 10/27/2018 at 12:34 AM, devlin said:

The look on dean’s face when he first enters the bunker and finds it full of strangers broke my heart. 

Why would Dean be surprised though?   He was part of the effort to evacuate everyone from AU world.  The Bunker has a stockpile of lore and weapons.   Where else would they be when it's all hands on deck to find/save him?

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Why would Dean be surprised though?   He was part of the effort to evacuate everyone from AU world.  The Bunker has a stockpile of lore and weapons.   Where else would they be when it's all hands on deck to find/save him?

Maybe because he knew that the hunters were around but not that they had setup headquarters in his home. In the finale during a scene between Bobby and Mary it was mentioned that the people from the AU had settled into town. It makes sense that he would be startled to see them there.

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Maybe because he knew that the hunters were around but not that they had setup headquarters in his home. In the finale during a scene between Bobby and Mary it was mentioned that the people from the AU had settled into town. It makes sense that he would be startled to see them there.

That's another thing Chief should have done was warn Dean so it wasn't' such a shock. 

The scene could have shown more support for Dean by having Sam or Jody do some of the dirty work. Or just have Sam yell "Shut the hell up"  There are a lot of different ways it could have gone. 

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

 If Sam is the leader of this group, then he was the one who needed to step up to the plate and make the tough choice but he hasn't. 

This is why I don't find Sam is a good leader.  He doesn't seem to want to make the tough decisions.  Its' easy to tell people who worship and adore you to go hunt some vampires but when he cant' tell an untrained person they can't go on the hunt.  He still makes Dean be the bad guy.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Sam will be the leader going forward, anymore than Dean will be.  They've been following Sam because Dean was gone.  But now that he's back, I see it going back to how it's always been.  They'll each stick with their strong suits.  

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Maybe because he knew that the hunters were around but not that they had setup headquarters in his home. In the finale during a scene between Bobby and Mary it was mentioned that the people from the AU had settled into town. It makes sense that he would be startled to see them there.

I agree.  It just seems that Dean would see it as logical that the AU hunters would congregate at the Bunker since this was a dire situation.  Also Michael might be gunning for hunters.  I think that is why Sam, Bobby and Mary were lured to the church? where they encountered Michaels supercharged werewolves.  Michael for some reason (instead of just poofing them away) is trying to kill them by monster ambush.  And maybe he's going to go after all Hunters first since they were pretty pesky in his last world.

Also the AU hunters were pretty blase about seeing Dean.  They knew he was the guy that said yes to giving the angel that destroyed their planet a vessel.  If we have flashbacks of Dean's time as Michael we should also have a few of how Sam got everyone on board with finding Dean and how he convinced them not to try and kill Dean on sight.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[DeeDee79]

22 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

If we have flashbacks of Dean's time as Michael we should also have a few of how Sam got everyone on board with finding Dean and how he convinced them not to try and kill Dean on sight.

I would like to see this. Especially with how wary the one guy was when he saw Dean entering the room.

[Wynne88]

42 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

If we have flashbacks of Dean's time as Michael we should also have a few of how Sam got everyone on board with finding Dean and how he convinced them not to try and kill Dean on sight.

Especially since some of the pre-premiere buzz was about how the AU people wanted to kill Michael outright, and Sam needed to convince them that they needed to keep Dean alive.  The only person I saw actually talk about killing him was Jack.

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Especially since some of the pre-premiere buzz was about how the AU people wanted to kill Michael outright, and Sam needed to convince them that they needed to keep Dean alive.  The only person I saw actually talk about killing him was Jack.

It was a great thought that you quoted but it wasn't mine; it was @Casseiopeia :)

[ILoveReading]

14 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Sam will be the leader going forward, anymore than Dean will be.  They've been following Sam because Dean was gone.  But now that he's back, I see it going back to how it's always been.  They'll each stick with their strong suits.  

Will respond in bitter spoilers.

[Casseiopeia]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:36 AM, SueB said:

I've been thinking about Kaia's spear.  The long 'barbeque fork' is attached to the bone of an animal.  I'm getting "Basilik's fang" vibe here (see Harry Potter).  I don't know what creature it came out of but I bet the 'fork' is some part of a creature. 

That's funny I was getting a First Blade Mark of Cain vibe.  Maybe their is a Bad Place Claire that wronged BP Kaia.  Maybe there is a biblical connection..

[SueB]

On 10/30/2018 at 2:11 PM, MysteryGuest said:

Kaia has access to original Kaia's head space, so she also has her interactions with Dean to pull from.  But regardless, even if her intent was to piss him off, which considering she thinks she's fighting for her life, isn't all that surprising, again, so what?  She hit the nail on the head with her comments, as evidenced by his facial expression.  Dean may very well think all of these bad things about himself.  He has for years.  But that doesn't mean that we think those things about him, or that his loved ones think that way about him.  I think it would have been stupid if Sam spoke up to Kaia and said "you're wrong, Dean is not afraid".  But just because he didn't, doesn't mean that he agrees with her.  

But Sam does know Dean's weaknesses, just like Dean knows Sam's.  And Dean's weakness is family.  He would lay down his life for any of them without batting an eye.  That ever present concern may make him act like a dick on occasion, but it makes him anything but a dick in reality.

I agree (bolded).  He treats it like bravado it is - and when one of the brothers is 'interrogating', the other is either silent are they are tag-teaming.  Arguing back against an insult diverts from the topic at hand: what she knows. 

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

I agree (bolded).  He treats it like bravado it is - and when one of the brothers is 'interrogating', the other is either silent are they are tag-teaming.  Arguing back against an insult diverts from the topic at hand: what she knows. 

Except the interrogation wasn't getting anywhere because little Miss Ninja Sue wasn't intimated in the slightest.  So they could have had Sam interrupt or they could have spread the insults around or had Sam do some of heavy lifting or even Jody get in her face on Claire's behalf, after she said she was trying to kill Claire.   There were multiple other ways they could have written that scene.

Edited November 1, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ster1]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Except the interrogation wasn't getting anywhere because little Miss Ninja Sue wasn't intimated in the slightest.  So they could have had Sam interrupt or they could have spread the insults around or had Sam do some of heavy lifting or even Jody get in her face on Claire's behalf, after she said she was trying to kill Claire.   There were multiple other ways they could have written that scene.

 

We've repeatedly seen Dean get angry on Sam's behalf and refute any criticism of Sam.  The only time I remember Dean staying quiet was during possessed Bobby's takedown of Sam. But Sam (and other characters) traditionally don't stand up for Dean when he's the one being attacked.  At the least, Sam could have reassured Dean in the car afterward. Even if didn't change Dean's mind, it'd still better than thinking his loved ones agreed that he's weak and a bully. 

I'm supposing Berens wanted a way to expose Dean's hidden fears and used Kaia to do it. Unfortunately, with the show's history of bashing Dean without a counter, I'm not surprised so many fans thought it was authorial intent.

Have we heard whether AU Kaia is more than human? From how she described her connection to original Kaia, I thought she was like the other AU characters - the same person, just different circumstances. But if AU Kaia is human, I don't understand why Michael would want to recruit her. Even if she's Kaia Sue and can fight well, she's still human.

Edited November 1, 2018 by ster1

[devlin]

Sam doesn’t even have to speak when dean gets insulted, I would be happy with a sam who looks annoyed/disgusted with whatever has insulted dean and what they said 

[SueB]

Given that Jody is going to confess to Claire that she's seen Kaia's killer and she's living outside the woods of South Dakota, I would fully expect Claire to go out to seek her revenge.  Not sure how that happens in "offscreenville".

[mertensia]

On 11/1/2018 at 2:38 PM, devlin said:

Sam doesn’t even have to speak when dean gets insulted, I would be happy with a sam who looks annoyed/disgusted with whatever has insulted dean and what they said 

Angrily refuting Kaia would tell her her words hit home. Sam and Jody standing there letting her trash-talk Dean is much more of a "yeah, you're wrong". 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Angrily refuting Kaia would tell her her words hit home. Sam and Jody standing there letting her trash-talk Dean is much more of a "yeah, you're wrong". 

They didn`t look like they thought she was wrong. Nothing about how this scene was shot was saying she was wrong, quite the opposite. SPN is not a subtle show - until this recent Season of Supergirl, I would have crowned it most anvillicious on the CW - so if they want to make clear a baddie`s words are bs, they do. Those scenes have an entirely different vibe. This played like Kaia was handing out insightful truths to Dean, how he is a violent, weak thug,  that noone could refute.  

[mertensia]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They didn`t look like they thought she was wrong. Nothing about how this scene was shot was saying she was wrong, quite the opposite. SPN is not a subtle show - until this recent Season of Supergirl, I would have crowned it most anvillicious on the CW - so if they want to make clear a baddie`s words are bs, they do. Those scenes have an entirely different vibe. This played like Kaia was handing out insightful truths to Dean, how he is a violent, weak thug,  that noone could refute.  

Me, I don't put much stock into what someone who is trying to get a rise out of people says. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Me, I don't put much stock into what someone who is trying to get a rise out of people says. 

Like I said, if that is what the point of the scene was, it would have been acted and directed quite differently. Especially on this show. And she wouldn`t have been validated as the saviour of the day. Bad guys who are telling bs to a good guy character that is supposed to be obvious bs get shown to be completely wrong and get their comeuppance or are made to eat epic crow later. Dark!Kaia on the other hand got all the validation anvils one could think of - the out-of-context flashback coupled with the current situation with Jody/Sam handwringing over thug!Dean completely vindicated her -which in turn validated her POV and thus everything she said.    

Edited November 4, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

Sam and Jody standing there letting her trash-talk Dean is much more of a "yeah, you're wrong". 

Agree to disagree.

Completely.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

Angrily refuting Kaia would tell her her words hit home. Sam and Jody standing there letting her trash-talk Dean is much more of a "yeah, you're wrong". 

Answering in BvJ to be safe.

[devlin]

9 hours ago, mertensia said:

Angrily refuting Kaia would tell her her words hit home. Sam and Jody standing there letting her trash-talk Dean is much more of a "yeah, you're wrong". 

I don’t understand your reasoning. “All it takes for evil to triumph is when good men do nothing” or however that saying goes. As I said sam doesn’t have to say anything, just stand there and look pissed

[tessathereaper]

On 11/4/2018 at 4:49 PM, devlin said:

I don’t understand your reasoning. “All it takes for evil to triumph is when good men do nothing” or however that saying goes. As I said sam doesn’t have to say anything, just stand there and look pissed

If I refute the aspersions you cast upon my brother's/friend's character that means what you are saying MUST be true?  How does that make sense?  

[OtterMommy]

The conversation here has devolved into rehashing the same argument endlessly.  Please move on and/or take the discussion to the appropriate thread; otherwise, we will be putting this thread on a timeout.

[millennium]

As I watched this episode I had a realization: I have no interest at all in Sheriff Jody Mills and her clan.

[takalotti]

D: And as far as my memory goes, I mean everything from the second I said yes to the moment I walked through those doors is blank.

So he doesn’t remember fighting/killing Lucifer? Or is this mistake a clue that something is amiss? Or is it just lazy writing?

 

Please tell me they did some sort of offscreen test with holy oil to confirm Dean is Dean before meeting up with Cas again. Please tell me they didn’t just take Dean's word for it.

 

I’m so fucking confused right now. When Jack and Cas greeted Dean, Dean seemed really standoffish. Though he nodded at Cas, he stepped/leaned back at the same time. He seemed like he cut off Jack's hug (not that they’ve had a very huggy relationship, but just the way he jerked away). And after he said "Cas," I really read his expression to be "Don’t touch me." 

 

All of this (plus the first person POV scan of Dean's room) really gave me the impression that this must be Michael (or a stowaway Michael) and he doesn’t want Cas to sense he’s still there.

 

And then he’s all, "Read my brain," to Cas so nope, I guess this really is 100% Dean? And his standoffishness was just because he was feeling shitty for not being able to evict Michael and feeling out of place with all the people?

 

Warning: Destiel interpretation ahead 😉

D: Yeah, well speaking of clean up, I need a shower. (Bolts)

C: (Scrunchy face) Wait, why didn’t he invite me?

 

Dean removes long sleeved shirt.

Dean rolls up t-shirt sleeve.

Whoosh! Supernatural!

Dean with a new shirt sleeve rolled up.

Dean spends the whole rest of the scene with the sleeve up.

Me: @catrox14 must be having a conniption right now.

 

Really? Jack is so sulky he doesn’t notice someone being assisted down the stairs he’s walking toward? Doesn’t hear the shouted "A little help here!" request when he only took two steps into the hallway? Oookay. Also, I think the phrase some of us are looking for is "threenager."

 

No Witch-ita puns? Boo.

 

Dean's 'Yeah yeah, lets go without Cas' hastiness once again makes me think there's some Michael-y part of him that wants to keep Cas at a distance to avoid being detected. But I guess it was just his urgency to get something that can take out Michael.

 

The nonverbal exchange over Jody's head about Sam's beard made me chuckle.

 

Heehee re: Sam's serial killer geekitude.

 

I’m no expert at the bunker's layout, but where was Jack going? He bypassed the curved stairs which have an exit at the top, and I thought the exit to the garage was somewhere out the hall system but that’s where Jack came IN from when he paused by the stairs.

 

Jack: Who’s that?

Me: The girl you walked directly toward and couldn’t be bothered to notice?

 

I enjoyed the fight scenes with Dark Kaia. I didn’t think anyone was made to look stupid in order for her to best them, so that’s good.

 

C: It’s marked "Gross stuff."

Me: 🤣

 

Lora: Is that your Dad?

Jack: One of then, yes.

Me: It’s "My Three Dads!"

 

Lora was shot at a really weird angle. It looked like her eyes were closed the whole time.

 

Lora: She gave us nice things (touches necklace)

Spouse: Uh, maybe take that off her?

 

Lora: Because I left. I ran away. ... I hated her rules. I was sick of being treated like a kid. I thought I could make it on my own.

Me: (hands miming dropping something over and over) Bccchww! Bccchww! Bccchww!

Spouse: What was that?

Me: All the anvils falling.

 

Jack: Cas is gonna fix this. I promise.

Cas' face: Thanks for making empty promises on my behalf.

I know this is shitty of me, but if Jack hasn’t learned not to make empty promises by now, then I wish they had fully failed and Lora had stayed dead so he WOULD learn to say something more like, "We’re gonna do everything we can to fix this. We won’t give up on you." That's hope-giving, supportive, AND fair.

And that was a lot of awkward just standing around and looking at Lora when she died. I get they couldn’t stop it, but not even handholding or other comforting as she died?

 

Well, Dark Kaia's spear isn’t the ONLY thing they know of that hurts Michael. They just don’t know where an archangel blade or another archangel to wield it are. Side note: Can Jack kill an archangel with an archangel blade? They said a nephil is more powerful than its angel parent, so it stands to reason (did I just say 'reason'? Ha. Ha. Hahahahahaha!) that he could.

 

Holy exposition, Batman. Not the explanation of Jack's theory, but the timing. She’s lying there dead, and I know magic is involved so the normal rules of "if you’re gonna resuscitate someone, better do it quick or they’ll end up braindead" don’t apply, but they don’t know if time is a factor or not! Also...

C: Jack, are you sure?

Jack: (Firmly) No.

... gave me a good chuckle.

 

Not surprised, but I liked how differently Jensen fights as Michael. I agree it didn’t make sense that he chose to fight her instead of zap her, but I like the theories I read here (perhaps low on grace from making his super monsters, perhaps wanted to test her out a bit). And as far as her being able to best Michael goes, she was only able to stab him because he hit his head on a rock. He didn’t blackout like a human would, but I’m ok with there being a second of recovery while he heals his concussion.

 

Okay, can the actors really talk that clearly with those teeth prosthetics in? They must overdub that, right? Which makes me wonder what the undubbed version sounds like and how many times J2 cracked up.

 

J: (coughs)

Me: No one on TV ever coughs unless it means something.

J: (coughs up blood)

Me: He has consumption!

 

D: And it’s all on me, man. I said yes. It’s my fault.

Me: Okay, sure. And it’s also all on you that Lucifer didn’t torch the planet. That’s your fault, too.

[The Companion]

On 10/25/2018 at 8:12 PM, Katy M said:

I liked it.  The opening was funny with Dean complaining about Sam's beard.  I will never not love the brother stuff.

 

I did love this part. Actually, I liked a lot of the brother interaction here. I am not loving this storyline, but I did like the ribbing and the emotional beats.

On 10/25/2018 at 11:35 PM, SueB said:

 

I really liked it and Jody was perfect, as usual. 

I do always love Jody. 

On 10/26/2018 at 11:09 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

As if they needed that after she first kicked three adults' asses, one of whom is a cop and two who are Winchesters. Then took out all the monsters. After they went out of their way to tell us she was just as human as OG!Kaia (so it would be even worse that Killer!Dean punched her in the face). The pose was just icing on an very bad cake. Oy, I can't with this nonsense.

I hate how their competence is plot-based. Kaia wasn't selling badass for me. It was just so over the top.

On 10/27/2018 at 4:25 AM, BoxManLocke said:

I'm among the very few users here who actually liked WS, but I can't say I approve of the way it was brought back into the show.

It's very clear they had different plans for Michael but overhauled the entire thing when WS wasn't greenlit. Both storylines feel like they've been binded together with a bunch of shit-quality duct tape. The season didn't feel cohesive or focused before this episode, and it's even worse now.

We're only at episode 3 but I don't see how season 14 can get better plot-wise. You've got a main story that's been cut off when it was just starting, an ersatz of what was supposed to be an entirely different show, and BuckLeming's own shit-of-the-year that's not connected to anything. Good luck making this into something coherent.

Bring on the standalone episodes because that'll probably be the only saving grace of this mess.

Yes to all of this. The plot felt cobbled together and the goodishwill I had towards WS was destroyed when they couldn't adapt to not having the show picked up. 

I am so ready for Michael to be "in the wind" so we can get to some standalones and away from this tortured plot.

On 10/27/2018 at 2:17 PM, tennisgurl said:

 

Cas`s reaction when he saw Dean was super heartwarming, he looked like he was about to start crying with happiness when he saw Dean back to himself.

. . .

And, maybe I remember wrong, but didnt Claire only know Kaia for about a day? I get that she probably made an impression, especially after her tragic death, but they talked like they were this big romance. Am I remembering? 

It was a great moment.

And agreed that they didn't lay nearly enough groundwork for the romance they are trying to sell. 

On 10/28/2018 at 3:16 PM, Binns said:

I enjoyed the episode, but I’m not one to dig into things the way some of you are. I guess I’m more superficial. But I haven’t seen anyone mention - loved the canon touch when Sam spouted off the information about the last serial killer in Sioux Falls. He has that weird serial killer thing....wasn’t that season 1 that Dean teased him about it? 

I did love that callback.