S14.E01: Stranger In a Strange Land

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Nick is immortal because he's partially made of the cage that God made.  I

Nick was never in the Cage so why would he have any immortality from the Cage stuff?  Sam was the only Lucifer vessel that was in the Cage.  And Adam was the only Michael vessel that was in the Cage at the end of s5..

Even allowing for Nick's meatsuit to have been reconstituted or renewed, whichever, and have newly minted immortality, his brain was dead and his memories would be gone as well.  Same reason that Mary being burned twice should have incinerated her brain and memories and even her soul...but apparently that was in Memorex heaven as of s11.  So if the soul gets to have it's Memorex heaven, the question is why was Nick in Heaven at all given he made a deal with Satan. 

Wherever his soul went, the only way he would be in the current vessel is that someone scavenged his soul from somewhere and that wasn't Crowley. 

No matter how you slice it, IMO, , it's a ton of retcons to make it that Nick has any memories at all, much less new ones about Lucifer's post "reverse the polarity" adventures. that Sam would even be able to get too. 

For me this isn't clever writing, it's clugy and clunky all to keep Mark Pellegrino on the show.  

[BoxManLocke]

Canon breaking issues or not, the episode was a boring, unfocused mess and I think that's mainly down to the stupid number of characters.

 

It's interesting to compare this episode to the two previous premieres Dabb wrote, which were both decent IMO. They were slow-paced, intimate episode with a heavy focus on fresh character development : Mary, then Jack.

 

This episode on the other hand was all over the place, and dealing with a whopping NINE recurring characters !!!!! Which is why it felt nothing fucking happened, and nobody got a fair time of development except Sam (and even that one was wildly exaggerated to make up for the lack of time).

I don't think any writer could have made that work. I never bought the concept of an ensemble show for Supernatural, but at some point last season the show went even beyond that and just drowned itself in useless characters. Shit, there are probably even more characters than on LOST now.

Until the show can come back to a more manageable number I'll just be looking forward to the rare Sam/Dean only episodes, and expect the other ones to majorly suck.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Nick was never in the Cage so why would he have any immortality from the Cage stuff?  Sam was the only Lucifer vessel that was in the Cage.  And Adam was the only Michael vessel that was in the Cage at the end of s5..

Even allowing for Nick's meatsuit to have been reconstituted or renewed, whichever, and have newly minted immortality, his brain was dead and his memories would be gone as well.  Same reason that Mary being burned twice should have incinerated her brain and memories and even her soul...but apparently that was in Memorex heaven as of s11.  So if the soul gets to have it's Memorex heaven, the question is why was Nick in Heaven at all given he made a deal with Satan. 

Wherever his soul went, the only way he would be in the current vessel is that someone scavenged his soul from somewhere and that wasn't Crowley. 

No matter how you slice it, IMO, , it's a ton of retcons to make it that Nick has any memories at all, much less new ones about Lucifer's post "reverse the polarity" adventures. that Sam would even be able to get too. 

For me this isn't clever writing, it's clugy and clunky all to keep Mark Pellegrino on the show.  

But WAS Nick dead? 

I watched Swan Song again  Nick is on the floor but we don’t know his state. 

Interestly enough, on the Superwiki, Jules previously (ie. Sometime we’ll before S14) wrote:

Quote

Like Raphael's first vessel, Donnie Finnerman, Nick would have been rendered in a Persistent Vegetative State from archangel possession, making it impossible for him to verbally consent. While not stated in the episodes, one can assume Raphael and Lucifer gained reentry into their vessels through subconscious means.

So IF Nick was not dead but in a vegetative state, his soul was still there.  

Regarding the cage material, here’s what Crowley said: 

Quote

CROWLEY:  Well, genius trumps brute force. I've had a dozen of my most loyal studying the cage where you were held at the molecular level. They managed to replicate the material. They made those chains.

 

CROWLEY: I managed to pervert that spell. So your essence wasn't sent back to the cage, but instead, we found your discarded vessel a few years ago...

SCENE SHOWS LUCIFER’S ESSENCE ENTERING NICK WHO’S CHAINED TO A CHAIR.

CROWLEY: ...repaired it, improved it, making it a fitting final home for the real you. What? No snarky, devilish comments? You have nothing to say? 

LUCIFER: Thanks? I mean, all that effort. So you could've had me back in the cage, but no, you needed your sad, little revenge. How do you think this is going to end? Nice new digs, by the way. Cozy.

...

 

 

Note, he said ‘discarded vessel’.   Not ‘dug up the vessel’s dead body’.  Also, it wasn’t the chain, it’s the vessel.  

Quote

CROWLEY: This vessel... That's your true prison. It's been warded with runes and spellwork from the Cage, carved into every molecule. In there? I own you.

So Crowley studied God’s cage for Lucifer and modified Nick at the molecular level.  And we’ve seen Angels (and Archangels) impacted by magic.   

So... theoretically, the Nick suit might have withstood an Archangel blade.  

Now, how did vegetative Nick turn back into thinking Nick?   Don’t know.  

In sum, I still think there’s plotonium involved BUT I can see a logic thread that support the Nick suit.  A THIN thread, but technically there IMO. 

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

But WAS Nick dead?

Crowley confirmed it IIRC in s12. Unless you have any reason  to think he was too stupid to know if he was dead before doing his warding of the vessel.

[7kstar]

7 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

Is it just me (and not just for this show) or have the sound effects people on just about every show with fights really ramped up the punch sounds lately?  Every single hit sounds like a very large man with horseshoes in his glove hitting a side of meat and the microphone is actually in the meat.  All it's missing is the Whamp! Bang! Snick! words popping on the screen like a Batman episode

This made me laugh.  Doubt it's just you, but I was too caught up in man this is bad to pay attention to the fight, will try to do that on a rewatch.

I wish I could say I was excited but found myself bored through most of it. I thought Jensen's Michael has potential but I doubt they will do much with it so prepared for it not to mount too much.   My only thought on Sam saying no that maybe has a connection to season 5 is this...He said yes to Lucifer.  The demons may have this thought that if he says yes to one of them they will have all this amazing power.  Remember for them the Winchesters have survived it all.  That may be scary for a demon that doesn't really know what has happened.  So in that space, his saying that he will never say yes sort of makes sense...

I'll rewatch later, but most have said what I've thought about it.  I was hoping I was just too tired and it wasn't as bad as I originally thought, but maybe not.   The stuff with Cas sucked and I wish they would make his character have meaning but that seems to be a major writing flaw.  As for Mary, they are trying to make her care and realize how she messed up with her sons, but of course, she doesn't have a clue how to support Sam.  Sam is looking so I won't say he's given up yet. 

The reason I wasn't excited about Jensen playing Michael, was because I doubt they can do it well.  For Jensen, this is a chance to try something new...actors still need a good director.  It is the combination that makes it strong, without it, it becomes hit or miss every time.   I'm afraid they don't think they need to direct JP or JA and that creates issues which could be avoided if you had strong directors.

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I wish I could say I was excited but found myself bored through most of it. I thought Jensen's Michael has potential but I doubt they will do much with it so prepared for it not to mount too much.   My only thought on Sam saying no that maybe has a connection to season 5 is this...He said yes to Lucifer.  The demons may have this thought that if he says yes to one of them they will have all this amazing power.  Remember for them the Winchesters have survived it all.  That may be scary for a demon that doesn't really know what has happened.  So in that space, his saying that he will never say yes sort of makes sense...

The problem with that whole scene is the demons where actually winning the fight.  Jack and Maggie were useles.  Bobby and Maggie held their own but why didn't the demons use their powers.  They could have stopped it easily.

Kip actually had Sam pinned.  He won the fight.  If it wasnt' for the fact that Kip got distracted by a literal "oh look shiny" moment by staring at the pretty blade, Sam would be dead. 

So the whole "I am lion hear me roar" seemed unearned.  He got lucky that demons turned into morons after Crowley died.  It was about as anticlimatic as taking Candy from a baby.

Edited October 13, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, connieinnc said:

Let me try again, since I obviously was unclear in my original question: how is canon for how an Archangel blade works being broken when the only use of a real one was shown at the end of last season? We don't know if Gabriel's meatsuit is alive in the AU. We DO see that Nick is recovering from the sound inflicted on Lucifer, but don't know that a side effect of the blade is to do *some* restoration of the host. Yes, this series uses a lot of handwavian in regards to angels in particular and is inconsistent at best for many issues.

 While it's true we don't know for fact that the archangel blade doesn't have special properties that a regular angel blade lacks, it's not something that's so well known that Sam would just casually exposit the info. It's still a long blade to the guts though, and assuming Sam isn't also a surgeon now too, not something that should heal up on it's own. But then, there's no way that 'Nick' is human anyway. He/It should have dropped like the empty carcass he/it is the moment Lucifer vacated the premises. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 While it's true we don't know for fact that the archangel blade doesn't have special properties that a regular angel blade lacks, it's not something that's so well known that Sam would just casually exposit the info. It's still a long blade to the guts though, and assuming Sam isn't also a surgeon now too, not something that should heal up on it's own. But then, there's no way that 'Nick' is human anyway. He/It should have dropped like the empty carcass he/it is the moment Lucifer vacated the premises. 

I saw something on Tumblr that summed it up perfectly. 

Its the exact kind of explainer they mocked in another episode. 

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Crowley confirmed it IIRC in s12. Unless you have any reason  to think he was too stupid to know if he was dead before doing his warding of the vessel.

Not exactly. In S12 he called Nick a ‘discarded vessel’, NOT a dead body.  

Quote

CROWLEY: I managed to pervert that spell. So your essence wasn't sent back to the cage, but instead, we found your discarded vessel a few years ago... (From S12’s ‘Family Feud’)

Edited October 13, 2018 by SueB

[ahrtee]

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

Not exactly. In S12 he called Nick a ‘discarded vessel’, NOT a dead body.  

 

Wait, wait.  Nick "discarded" his vessel back in season 5 when he took over Sam.  So even if Crowley found it at that time, he, what, kept it (with Nick's soul still inside) on ice till season 12?  Or did Nick's soul go to hell (which is where he should have ended up anyway), but doesn't that seem like he wouldn't be "Nick" anymore after 7 years (which would equal, what, 840 years hell-time?) 

To recap:  in order for Nick to be back:

1. Lucifer abandoned Nick's body in season 5 when he took over Sam.

2. Crowley came across Nick's body (I assume still with his soul inside) and stored it for 7 years, presumably in hell

3. Meanwhile, Sam's body was removed from the Cage but his soul was left there, trapped with Lucifer (who wouldn't have had a vessel anymore) until

4. Lucifer was released from the Cage via Cas, spent the next year vessel-hopping till Crowley managed to trap him in the remade vessel.  

It just doesn't seem likely that a human soul would survive all that, much less retain all memories and personality. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by ahrtee
typo

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Wait, wait.  Nick "discarded" his vessel back in season 5 when he took over Sam.  So even if Crowley found it at that time, he, what, kept it (with Nick's soul still inside) on ice till season 12?  Or did Nick's soul go to hell (which is where he should have ended up anyway), but doesn't that seem like he wouldn't be "Nick" anymore after 7 years (which would equal, what, 840 years hell-time?) 

To recap:  in order for anything for Nick to be back:

1. Lucifer abandoned Nick's body in season 5 when he took over Sam.

2. Crowley came across Nick's body (I assume still with his soul inside) and stored it for 7 years, presumably in hell

3. Meanwhile, Sam's body was removed from the Cage but his soul was left there, trapped with Lucifer (who wouldn't have had a vessel anymore) until

4. Lucifer was released from the Cage via Cas, spent the next year vessel-hopping till Crowley managed to trap him in the remade vessel.  

It just doesn't seem likely that a human soul would survive all that, much less retain all memories and personality. 

Nick could have been alive and sitting in a wheel chair drooling like Donny.  Crowley found him and took him out of the nursing home (or wherever) and hatched his revenge plan.  He kept Mrs Tran on ‘ice’ for well over a year.  He seemed to have many schemes going at one time.  

[ahrtee]

Just now, SueB said:

Nick could have been alive and sitting in a wheel chair drooling like Donny.  Crowley found him and took him out of the nursing home (or wherever) and hatched his revenge plan.  He kept Mrs Tran on ‘ice’ for well over a year.  He seemed to have many schemes going at one time.  

The point is, would Nick still be "Nick" after 7 years?  Enough to hold long conversations with Sam and have regrets?  (If even Chuck couldn't fix our Michael's damaged mind, how would Nick's soul still be alive and conscious?)  And why would Crowley even want to save the person if all he needed was the vessel?

So if they want to salvage the vessel, silly but can be handwaved.  Salvaging Nick?  Nope.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

The point is, would Nick still be "Nick" after 7 years?  Enough to hold long conversations with Sam and have regrets?  (If even Chuck couldn't fix our Michael's damaged mind, how would Nick's soul still be alive and conscious?)  And why would Crowley even want to save the person if all he needed was the vessel?

So if they want to salvage the vessel, silly but can be handwaved.  Salvaging Nick?  Nope.

How he’s mentally fit is a mystery to me.  I’m not claiming it’s a plotonium-free development, just that there’s indication Nick wasn’t dead.  

[gonzosgirrl]

IMO it's huge stretch to believe that the human survived housing the devil for months, especially when he had no percentage in keeping him viable. Lucifer was already burning through the Nick suit in Swan Song. Sam's hellucinations looked like Nick, but that's the last time "we" saw him. If he were still alive then, Crowley couldn't have taken his body.

[Casseiopeia]

Eh...who are we kidding....it's Lucifer.

[ZennyKenny]

14 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I feel like season openers are only slightly less clunky than a new show's premier episode - a lot of time is taken with season plot set up, reminding us what happened before and catching us up to what's happening now.  Sometimes it's done really well but often it feels like a lot of explanation and set up of what's coming while still trying to keep what's coming a secret so the set up tends to not make sense.  Maybe I'm just making excuses but at the moment I didn't hate or love the premier it just sort of "was".  I'd give it at least two more episodes to really see where they're going with this or if they even know where they're going with this.

That's a good point. I always give a new series 3 episodes because I'm usually not won over after the first one. It never occurred to me that new seasons of SPN might need the same consideration. I feel like it took an entire episode to catch the story up, and the tail end introduced a teaser as to what this season's arc is going to be about. I think that's why I find SPN season premieres in general to be disappointing. This episode in particular was frustrating because when I look at Cas's story with the wannabe king of hell who was killed 20 minutes after being introduced, Bobby & Mary talking & flirting, Nick still being alive, etc. it all seems so pointless. It's why I wish SPN season premieres were 2 hours long, because this feels like half of a premiere.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO it's huge stretch to believe that the human survived housing the devil for months, especially when he had no percentage in keeping him viable. Lucifer was already burning through the Nick suit in Swan Song. Sam's hellucinations looked like Nick, but that's the last time "we" saw him. If he were still alive then, Crowley couldn't have taken his body.

I don’t understand - how does a hallucination in Sam’s head have any bearing on Nick’s actual body?

[catrox14]

So. Upon rewatch it occurs to me that wasn't it a big problem that there was a power vacuum in Hell and that it needed some kind of ruler to make sure there was balance?  Isn't Sam screwing with that balance now but saying there will be no more King of Hell?

Or could they be setting up Rowena as the Queen of Hell? I mean I fully can see this show doing that thinking it was oh so clever wording.

[7kstar]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Kip actually had Sam pinned.  He won the fight.  If it wasnt' for the fact that Kip got distracted by a literal "oh look shiny" moment by staring at the pretty blade, Sam would be dead. 

So the whole "I am lion hear me roar" seemed unearned.  He got lucky that demons turned into morons after Crowley died.  It was about as anticlimatic as taking Candy from a baby.

Oh I agree with all of this, I was just trying to find some reason that Sam's speech means anything.  Maybe in their battle the missed the "oh look shiny" moment but overall it was bad and no way should they have left.  In fact, laughing as they killed them all would have been more realistic...

[7kstar]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Nick could have been alive and sitting in a wheel chair drooling like Donny.  Crowley found him and took him out of the nursing home (or wherever) and hatched his revenge plan.  He kept Mrs Tran on ‘ice’ for well over a year.  He seemed to have many schemes going at one time.  

2

My problem with all of this is that I have to work so hard to believe it.  Maybe they should have said one line to help us get it, but now it just like a setup.  I'm waiting to see what they do, but I can't help believe they will use it to have Lucifer come back.   Not a spoiler as I just can't believe Dabb is done with Lucifer if they still have the actor around.

[Quark]

What an unimpressive episode. Can't say I'm particularly impressed with Jensen Ackles as Michael either. 

I can't believe we aren't done with Mark Pellegrino either. Enough is enough.

The one thing that amused me is the emphasis on a new King of Hell. What about a Queen? That could be fun.

I want Rowena back.

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Quark said:

Can't say I'm particularly impressed with Jensen Ackles as Michael either

In all fairness to Jensen, he wasn't really given much to work with.  He barely got five minutes.  When he asked for guidance and direction, Dabb was basically like, "you got this." 

It's hard to create a new character when that character is barely present.

*This is not meant as bitch vs Jerk but a criticism on Dabb himself. 

[gonzosgirrl]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I don’t understand - how does a hallucination in Sam’s head have any bearing on Nick’s actual body?

I'm just emphasizing that Nick was dead and gone in S5, regardless of how repeatedly we saw Pellegrino after that. 

The next time we actually see dead Nick's meatsuit is when Crowley brought it out of cold storage. Point being, it's ridiculous to have him alive in S14, fully functioning,  with Nick's memories to boot.

Edited October 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The next time we actually see dead Nick's meatsuit is when Crowley brought it out of cold storage. Point being, it's ridiculous to have him alive in S14, fully functioning,  with Nick's memories to bo

For all the nonsensical and witless things that happen in the show, this is too much. And thus I don't think it's what it seems. IMO, this is Lucifer playing a long con.  That he's the one with the memories not Nick. And that won't bode well for Sam, unless Sam has an inkling that it is Lucifer, hence the devil's trap usage.  I remember Jared speaking recently at a con of preferring to see conversations between the bad guy and the protagonist about why the bad guy is doing what he's doing.  Maybe that's what this is setting up.  And it keeps Sam from looking like a chump if it's shown that Lucifer is alive.

The downside is that it removes Dean's victory over Lucifer :(.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For all the nonsensical and witless things that happen in the show, this is too much. And thus I don't think it's what it seems. IMO, this is Lucifer playing a long con.  That he's the one with the memories not Nick. And that won't bode well for Sam, unless Sam has an inkling that it is Lucifer, hence the devil's trap usage.  I remember Jared speaking recently at a con of preferring to see conversations between the bad guy and the protagonist about why the bad guy is doing what he's doing.  Maybe that's what this is setting up.  And it keeps Sam from looking like a chump if it's shown that Lucifer is alive.

The downside is that it removes Dean's victory over Lucifer :(.

How sad is it that I am hoping Dabb is just this witless and it is really 'Nick', if only so that it doesn't take the one good thing about Dean saying yes away: Lucifer's death. But with what you say about Jared's comments, and Pellegrino saying Lucifer's death was 'more Rowena than Crowley', I fear you're right. I'm just sticking my head in the nice, warm sand until Dabb rips it out for me.

Edited October 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And that won't bode well for Sam, unless Sam has an inkling that it is Lucifer, hence the devil's trap usage. 

I've said it before:  devil's traps don't work on angels (or humans).  Lucifer is an angel.  Nick is human.  The devil's trap should be useless either way.  Sam should know that. So should the writers.  But...canon, hah!

And yes, I'm fully expecting Luci to be back.  They've already jumped that shark by several miles just by bringing back "Nick". 

He'll probably volunteer to help them find/eject Michael, though why anyone (especially Sam) should believe him is way beyond stupidity.  But we'll get the whole "it's the only way/I'll make sure he doesn't betray us/as soon as we get Dean back, Lucifer's dead" speech (again.)  

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I've said it before:  devil's traps don't work on angels (or humans).  Lucifer is an angel.  Nick is human.  The devil's trap should be useless either way.  Sam should know that. So should the writers.  But...canon, hah!

Oh that's true! I didn't even think about that. They should have put holy oil around him? Wait, didn't Dean toss that whole thing of holy oil at AU Michael? Or can Cas get some more?

[Casseiopeia]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh that's true! I didn't even think about that. They should have put holy oil around him? Wait, didn't Dean toss that whole thing of holy oil at AU Michael? Or can Cas get some more?

I don't think Nick was being trapped in the DT.  There is furniture in the dungeon outside the trap.  I think that is where they put him because it was the most secure room in the Bunker.

They seem to have an endless supply of holy oil don't they.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think Nick was being trapped in the DT.  There is furniture in the dungeon outside the trap.  I think that is where they put him because it was the most secure room in the Bunker.

Oh. That's kind of unfortunate if he's not being trapped or at least not having Sam think he's being trapped.  That makes Sam look naively foolish for not doing so.  Alas.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Oh. That's kind of unfortunate if he's not being trapped or at least not having Sam think he's being trapped.  That makes Sam look naively foolish for not doing so.  Alas.

I can't see how locking Nick up in the dungeon will trap him if he is still Lucifer.  The whole thing  just seems like a How-to manual for getting Michael out of Dean.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I can't see how locking Nick up in the dungeon will trap him if he is still Lucifer.  The whole thing  just seems like a How-to manual for getting Michael out of Dean.

That's what Ahrtee was saying too.  So that's why I still can't believe Sam didn't just burn Nick. Unless Sam thinks Lucifer is still alive and is worried he'll end up having to be his vessel again.  I dunno. I'm spitballin' to find a way to not make this Nick thing be truly Nick. Cause it's so stupid. LOL

And yes I agree that it could be setting up how to get Michael out of Dean without killing Dean but I'm hoping there is more to it. But I still think they haven't killed Lucifer. 

[lmdreamer]

If Nick is still alive after being stabbed by an arch angel blade does this mean that Gabriel's vessel is still alive in the AU world?

[catrox14]

Question

Remember that Dean/Michael was holding the Archangel Blade when he fell back down to the floor at the end of 13.23 after stabbing Lucifer.

What happened to the Archangel Blade? Was it mentioned in this episode and I missed it? Does Sam have possession of it now? Did Michael!Dean pick it up and take it? 

[catrox14]

So, if the Demon Kip was visited by Michael and it's not just a coinky dink, that someone else asked him what he wanted, then Michael didn't kill him.  Why not? And if Michael didn't kill him, is there reason to believe he killed the Muslim Holy Man?

Weird.

[catrox14]

Oh hey. I totally forgot that Dean shot Nickifer in the head with the Colt back in s5. Souldn't that alone have killed Nick's brain and memories? I mean even if Lucifer kept the meatsuit sort of intact would he have really bothered with his memories?

[BoxManLocke]

I mean if you think Nick's a character with potential more power to you I guess.

 

Dude's a plot device from one episode nine years ago, he has no importance whatsoever, and we've done the meatsuit thing how many times now ? Also we're about to go through it again with Dean when Michael leaves his body.

 

I wish Dabb would channel his endless inventivity to find ways to keep Pellegrino on the show, and use it to treat other characters the way they should be treated instead. But no, gotta fill the show with bloat in order to drag on the main storyline for as long as possible and keep the character development to a minimum (basically paraphrasing what he said at Comic-Con).

 

This is so frustrating.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh hey. I totally forgot that Dean shot Nickifer in the head with the Colt back in s5. Souldn't that alone have killed Nick's brain and memories? I mean even if Lucifer kept the meatsuit sort of intact would he have really bothered with his memories?

I've already gone on record saying I think Nick should be dead due to the archangel blade.  But, as for any earlier possible mortal wounds, I've always had the impression that angels heal their vessels as they go.  I don't think anything that doesn't kill the angel affects the vessel much at all.  

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've already gone on record saying I think Nick should be dead due to the archangel blade.  But, as for any earlier possible mortal wounds, I've always had the impression that angels heal their vessels as they go.  I don't think anything that doesn't kill the angel affects the vessel much at all

 thought that an angel would only heal it's vessel if it wanted to. And since Lucifer was burning through Nick by the end of s5, he must not have wanted to heal him right?  I'm just trying to find any logic to this.

[catrox14]

Thinking about Michael telling sister Jo she just wants love is weird.  I mean I could believe it if he just reads her and that's that.  I don't think it anything to do with what Dean noted about her in the entire 10 minutes he met her.  I don't believe they are making it that Dean fell for her either especially when she betrayed them to Lucifer.  I don't see that happening. 

She wanted Heaven to be better, not Earth. She came to Earth because Heaven wouldn't listen to her suggestions and she wanted to go back as the Queen of Heaven with Lucifer until he showed his true colors and she left. So I don't think she actually does care about humanity but she cares about Heaven.

However, the character that did feel for humanity, who did rebel was Castiel.  I wonder if Michael misread Dean's thoughts and memories of Cas and applied them to Jo.  Didn't Samifer say he could feel Sam scratching around in his brain trying to get out or something like that? Maybe Dean is trying to get out and it's messing with how Michael perceives the people in Dean's memories?  

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

I mean if you think Nick's a character with potential more power to you I guess.

No. No powers to anyone who feels this way. Pellegrino's performance in "Sympathy for the Devil" is one of my all time favorites, but Nick is not a character. He's a meatsuit.

[mertensia]

15 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

 

They seem to have an endless supply of holy oil don't they.

The Men of Letters probably had a huge stash of it.

[ParadoxLost]

Got around to watching.

I dislike Michael running around in a Dean meatsuit.  This will never change.  It is the last thing I would want to see.  I am admittedly projecting my dislike of every storyline where either brother ran around possessed by something and was essentially absent for a portion of the season and then has post traumatic angst when they return.  I have a special loathing for when Dean was taken over by the Mark of Cain. So there is that.

I think the time Dean has been missing was a misstep.  On the one hand, I was relieved that Sam had been out looking for Dean, that he was exhausted and harried, and trying to keep everything going as best he could while still having everyone deployed following up leads.  A kneejerk, well he didn’t just give up and never try to get him back this time reaction.  On the other, it really bugged me that only three weeks had past.  The dialogue is making all the right noises, but it suffers in execution.  Mary and Sam don’t look tired.  Costuming couldn’t have made Sam’s beard unkempt or eyes bloodshot?  The emoting and the dialogue weren’t matching up.  It hadn’t been long enough to be truly weary (even if anyone had looked it).   

I had to google it to get the joke, but Jack mistaking a Rocky quote for Ghandi is amusing.  I guess that means that in the AU Rocky Balboa came out before the apocalypse.

Whoever decided to edit a scene of Sam coming into talk to Lucifer and asking if he remembered Michael to cut away to a Halloween commercial should be strung up and then fired.  You don’t mess with the flow of your show like that to set up a commercial.  FFS, can I hope they didn’t do that when it aired in its normal timeslot?

The persona they’ve settled on for Michael in a Deansuit is not working for me.  They are trying too hard to make it clear that this isn’t Dean Winchester.  We saw this Michael last season, why has he suddenly regressed a hundred years in his fashion sense and speech patterns.  That or someone answered “what do you want?” with “I’d like to see Newsies”.  Also, “what do you want” is an off-limits question to drive this story arc.  It makes my brain go to Babylon 5.

It makes no sense that Lucifer’s host is alive.  It makes so little sense that I wonder if they’ll bring back Lucifer somehow.  Or there needs to be an example so getting Dean back after XYZ nonsense happens isn’t the biggest cheat of what happens to a meatsuit when a Demon/Angel vacates.

I actually like that they have a bunker full of rebels with the exception of Mary who doesn’t really add anything good to the show.  Its at least a different dynamic and less repetitive than the usual for a while.   A couple people to get to know and who might actually be in real jeopardy and suffer actual consequences is not a bad thing.  Star Trek had red shirts for a reason.  I do get the sense they will conveniently forget that AU Bobby isn’t Sam and Dean’s Bobby.

The choreography of the fight with Kip and his demons was the dumbest I recall on this show.  Slow Mo plus enhanced sound effects, just stop it.  And its going on forever.

I’m of two minds on the ‘there will be no new King of Hell speech’.  I would love to see a clip show with “unseen” footage of all the times Dean and Sam have walked into a room declaring that X wasn’t ever happening and anyone who disagreed had to go through them with a progression and variety of reactions.  That’s how I’m explaining it in my head because it didn’t really work.

It could have worked because Kip was cast and written as a demon who clearly couldn’t rule hell and Sam was scaring like three demons who were still alive and were weak enough to be following Kip.

The problem I had with it was the reaction it got from Cas and the others.  It was too awestruck.  And it was too serious in the delivery.  There should have been a little exasperation in there.  Basically, I have to deal with you morons who couldn’t rule hell for five minutes when I have more important shit to do like find my brother.

[sarthaz]

13 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Also, “what do you want” is an off-limits question to drive this story arc.  It makes my brain go to Babylon 5.

This times infinity, unless (and I seriously doubt this) they're making a specific reference here and going for a Shadows/chaos thing. Most likely, though, they have no sense of history and don't understand what it means to have a character go around asking people "What do you want?"

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This times infinity, unless (and I seriously doubt this) they're making a specific reference here and going for a Shadows/chaos thing. Most likely, though, they have no sense of history and don't understand what it means to have a character go around asking people "What do you want?"

Or more likely it's an in-joke, since there are those of us who never watched B5 and have no idea about any references.  (The same thing goes for me for most of the "homages/in-jokes" they use.  It gets more than a little annoying.)  

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This times infinity, unless (and I seriously doubt this) they're making a specific reference here and going for a Shadows/chaos thing. Most likely, though, they have no sense of history and don't understand what it means to have a character go around asking people "What do you want?"

I never watched Babylon 5, but 'what do you desire?' is the crux of Lucifer - a current and competitive show.

[gonzosgirrl]

Because I was hoping against hope for the SDCC video clip of Michael!Dean to be released, I only listened to the audio clip once. Now it's been pointed out to me that they cut a good deal of it from the actual episode. Why? To make room for the slo-mo, cartoon-noises bar fight? Or the soliloquy to the Amazing Sam Winchester that Kip delivered? JFC I loathe Dabb.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because I was hoping against hope for the SDCC video clip of Michael!Dean to be released, I only listened to the audio clip once. Now it's been pointed out to me that they cut a good deal of it from the actual episode. Why? To make room for the slo-mo, cartoon-noises bar fight? Or the soliloquy to the Amazing Sam Winchester that Kip delivered? JFC I loathe Dabb.

Someone did a transcript of the two dialogues side by side.   The bolded parts are what was cut out.

Including the lines, "thats what they say they want.  When the lights are out they don't want peace or love"  (paraphrasing).  The was probably the most important line because it explains a large part of Michael's motivations.

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I never watched Babylon 5, but 'what do you desire?' is the crux of Lucifer - a current and competitive show

Someone in the writers room must watch Lucifer.  Because

Spoiler

The whole devil having a true face is a huge plot point as well. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Someone did a transcript of the two dialogues side by side.   The bolded parts are what was cut out.

Including the lines, "thats what they say they want.  When the lights are out they don't want peace or love"  (paraphrasing).  The was probably the most important line because it explains a large part of Michael's motivations.

Someone in the writers room must watch Lucifer.  Because

  Hide contents

The whole devil having a true face is a huge plot point as well. 

Grrrrrr!!!!

(thank you for the links) And yes, the spoiler was a major eye-roll from last season as well. I bet Dabb and Pellegrino somehow thought the whole #SaveLucifer campaign was about them. /snark

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Someone did a transcript of the two dialogues side by side.   The bolded parts are what was cut out.

Including the lines, "thats what they say they want.  When the lights are out they don't want peace or love"  (paraphrasing).  The was probably the most important line because it explains a large part of Michael's motivations.

Someone in the writers room must watch Lucifer.  Because

  Reveal hidden contents

The whole devil having a true face is a huge plot point as well. 

This is infuriating but its to be expected from Dabb at this point.

[annspal]

"What do you want?"

I'm another who hasn't see Babylon 5 or Lucifer, so I'm drawn to possible references within Supernatural's canon. 

Season 4's Wishful Thinking is the first episode I want to rewatch! The entire premise was getting what you wanted -- whether it was to be loved more than anything, power against bullies, a companion for tea parties, or notably, a sandwich -- and Lilith's head on a plate. 

Beyond that, though, I'm thinking about the episodes where it was important to listen to and understand what the ghost wanted. The Pilot had the Woman in White who wanted to go home. I think most of the examples that come to mind boil down to reunions or justice/revenge or simple survival (before they devolved into entirely crazed, I-want-to-eat-you, too-far-gone types).  Would Michael's relationship to the people, angels, and monsters in our universe be so very different from the Winchesters' early season relationship to trapped spirits?