This is (not) an Advantage: HII, Advantages and other Twists

[Bryce Lynch]

On 12/30/2018 at 6:02 AM, KimberStormer said:

Seemed like the best thread for this on a first glance, since fire-making F4 is kind of a twist, but if this goes somewhere else I wouldn't be surprised:

I disagree, as I'm sure you know.  To speak a little more harshly than I feel, if you need immunity to get to the end you're not that great a Survivor player.  (I don't mean that to take away from the great people who have won final immunity and then won the game; I just hope they had a contingency plan.)  The best way IMO to win Survivor is to be taken to final 2 and then win, like Richard Hatch, Parvati, or even (I hate to admit) Tony.  (Really, Rich did the best thing ever in the very first season, deliberately throwing the FIC to get taken and win....how can you ever top it)  To get taken in an F3 is far less amazing but still good.  If you're smart enough, and have planned well enough, to where the other person(s) feels they need or want to take you, and then you beat them, you are what a Survivor player ought to be.

Now this could still happen under the current regime -- if Angelina had won, for example -- but it seems to me the chance nature of the fire-making challenge just totally changes the entire dynamic and it's not anything like a real vote anyway.  If I were on the jury (this is just me talking, not what I think the jury "should" do) anyone who made fire would be automatically disqualified, no matter what I thought of them, just like anyone who came back from Redemption Island or Lil from Pearl Islands: if you can't survive the vote, you are ipso facto not the Sole Survivor in my eyes.  This is me speaking like some kind of austere Survivor ascetic but to me voting is the whole game.

They used to use fire-making in challenges a lot!  Memorable examples are Susie coming out of nowhere to demolish everyone in fire-making in Gabon, and my beloved Cao Boi doing a crazy, and crazy effective, fire-making dance in Cook Islands.

While I appreciate strategy and social game, I like to see some merit included in who wins as well.  It is too easy for a couple of weak, worthless players to gang up on a real player.  I think a lot of "strategy" is often mostly luck.   People can find themselves in the position to go to FTC, with other weak players, because things just worked out that way, not because of any brilliant moves they made.  If Nick didn't go on an immunity run, we could have had any combination of Kara, Angelina, Alison and Mike at FTC, which would have been pathetic, especially if Mike was not one of the 3.   

[Bryce Lynch]

I just finished watching Gabon, and I was amazed that Ken and Crystal actually fell for Bob's SECOND fake immunity idol.  They knew Bob had already caused Randy to be totally humiliated with his previous, beautifully built, fake idol.  Then he comes to them with his cockamamie story about Marcus pocketed the idol, when he supposedly threw it in the ocean, and they bought it?  

If he had a real idol, all that time, why didn't he use it to save his alliance?  Or why didn't Marcus use it?   

Also, didn't everyone see the real idol at the fake merge feast?  

Gabon was such a terrible season.  So many stupid, arrogant, nasty, unlikable players.   

[peachmangosteen]

On 12/31/2018 at 9:56 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

It is too easy for a couple of weak, worthless players to gang up on a real player.  

I feel like that never really happens though. I sure wish it did! If players team up to get rid of the big threat then that alone would make them not 'weak, useless' players imo. Weak, useless players are the ones that sit around and do nothing and let the bigger player win.

23 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Gabon was such a terrible season.  So many stupid, arrogant, nasty, unlikable players.   

Yes. And I loved it lol. Bob will forever be the worst winner imo. Although, I don't know, Adam is probably at least tied. Actually, I might have to put Adam on top now, since in general I enjoyed Gabon much more than I did MvGX.

[cherrypj]

On 12/31/2018 at 9:56 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

If Nick didn't go on an immunity run, we could have had any combination of Kara, Angelina, Alison and Mike at FTC, which would have been pathetic, especially if Mike was not one of the 3.

Wouldn't TPTB have edited those players much more strongly and favorably?

Yes. I can see Kara getting a really nice, even heroic, edit. Quite possibly, "she watches in frustration as the Goliaths fall apart," she "struggles to keep her neck off the block by making friends with the Davids ('any one but me!')," and she "wins a crucial immunity challenge" (since Nick doesn't!).

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, cherrypj said:

Wouldn't TPTB have edited those players much more strongly and favorably?

Yes. I can see Kara getting a really nice, even heroic, edit. Quite possibly, "she watches in frustration as the Goliaths fall apart," she "struggles to keep her neck off the block by making friends with the Davids ('any one but me!')," and she "wins a crucial immunity challenge" (since Nick doesn't!).

They would have had to do some kind of clever editing to make them look decent.   Kara was apparently not respected as a player.  I've read that there was talk among the players that she would have been a better goat than Angelina for Nick to take to FTC.   

They probably could have spliced together something better for Alison.  "Constantly on the chopping block, starving from no rewards, yet she outlasts them all."   

Mike probably would have gotten a friendlier edit, showing more of his wit and strategy and less of his nastiness, if he had won.  

As for Angelina, I think they would have to make an entirely new character, with CGI or animation, to give her a winner's edit.   I guess they could have edited Mike and Nick out of her idol find and use tricky camera angles to make it seem like she was 100 feet up on the 8 foot ladder.  They could have turned her fake fall into a real one and brought in medical, only to have her refuse to bow out, despite having a broken back.   How about editing the rice negotiating scene to show her getting the tribe 10 bags of rice, 20 lbs of beans, plus enough steaks, lobster, wine and cake for the rest of the season, in exchange for her grimy yoga pants. :)

Edited January 2, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

How about editing the rice negotiating scene to show [Angelina] getting the tribe 10 bags of rice, 20 lbs of beans, plus enough steaks, lobster, wine and cake for the rest of the season, in exchange for her grimy yoga pants. :)

Beats the hell outta stripping for peanut butter.  ;>

[KimberStormer]

3 hours ago, eel2178 said:

What happens if Lauren gets voted off while her idol is still buried? When she comes back from extinction, can she use it then? If someone is voted off with an idol in his pocket, is the idol rehidden for the masses, or can that person also bring it back with him from extinction?

We probably should have been having the whole idol discussion in this thread, really.  Anyway this is a very good question.  On a normal season, if you go home and your idol is back on the island (like what happened to JT in Game Changers) then it is void and a new idol is hidden (I assume they go and get the old one.)  But if Lauren came back from THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION could she get a buried idol?  What if she gets voted out with the idol in her pocket?  Does she bring it with her to THE EDGE and back, however coming back works?  I have no idea.  Do we know how it worked with Redemption Island?

[SVNBob]

4 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

We probably should have been having the whole idol discussion in this thread, really.

And of course I see this post after replying to the conversation in the episode thread.  But easy enough to move it over....

Peachy was asked about this scenario in interviews earlier.  He said that any idols belonging to people on EoE would remain valid if they returned to the main game.

And this makes logical sense.  Pocket Idols no longer have power because their owner is no longer in the game.  But, people on EoE are still in the game; because it's the other path that leads to the game being definitively over. 

So, if Lauren does get voted out without playing her idol, and manages to get back into the main game, her idol would still be valid and usable.  However, if she chooses the endgame path, or does not re-enter the game, it becomes just another Pocket Idol.  (Ditto if she raises the Surrender Sail.) And at that point, I would assume that the standard HII rules apply again and a new idol is hidden to replace it (unless the deadline for playing HIIs has passed).

I don't think this scenario ever applied to a Redemption Island.  In the three iterations of that twist, there was never one on the RI while owning an idol.  The closest was RI2, South Pacific.  Ozzy had found an idol, then came up with his (stupid) plan to get voted out himself to win his way back from RI at the merge to keep the numbers even, then use said idol to take control of the game.  As part of this "plan", Ozzy gave the idol to Cochran before getting voted out, so he didn't technically own the idol while on RI.

On the original RI, all the idol owners played theirs before getting voted out, or were BRob (and he did use his).  RI3 was BvW1, and there was the whole (also stupid) clue burning thing going on that season (FU Brad Culpepper).

Edited March 4, 2019 by SVNBob

[Bryce Lynch]

6 hours ago, SVNBob said:

And of course I see this post after replying to the conversation in the episode thread.  But easy enough to move it over....

Peachy was asked about this scenario in interviews earlier.  He said that any idols belonging to people on EoE would remain valid if they returned to the main game.

And this makes logical sense.  Pocket Idols no longer have power because their owner is no longer in the game.  But, people on EoE are still in the game; because it's the other path that leads to the game being definitively over. 

So, if Lauren does get voted out without playing her idol, and manages to get back into the main game, her idol would still be valid and usable.  However, if she chooses the endgame path, or does not re-enter the game, it becomes just another Pocket Idol.  (Ditto if she raises the Surrender Sail.) And at that point, I would assume that the standard HII rules apply again and a new idol is hidden to replace it (unless the deadline for playing HIIs has passed).

I don't think this scenario ever applied to a Redemption Island.  In the three iterations of that twist, there was never one on the RI while owning an idol.  The closest was RI2, South Pacific.  Ozzy had found an idol, then came up with his (stupid) plan to get voted out himself to win his way back from RI at the merge to keep the numbers even, then use said idol to take control of the game.  As part of this "plan", Ozzy gave the idol to Cochran before getting voted out, so he didn't technically own the idol while on RI.

On the original RI, all the idol owners played theirs before getting voted out, or were BRob (and he did use his).  RI3 was BvW1, and there was the whole (also stupid) clue burning thing going on that season (FU Brad Culpepper).

Great information, thanks!  I think it makes sense that idols players have went sent to EOE would remain theirs, but I also could have seen them doing it the other way.

Didn't Ozzy's (stupid) plan basically work, except for Cochrane flipping after the merge?  

[LanceM]

Jeff Probst address hidden immunity idol rules.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/06/survivor-jeff-probst-edge-of-extinction-hidden-immunity-idol-rules/

“Okay, great question!” host Jeff Probst tells EW. “Let’s clear this up for fans and future players: When someone finds an idol, it is their idol, regardless of whether they hide it in their personal bag or bury it in the sand. An idol can never be taken from you. So, if another player discovered an idol that had already been found and then ‘hidden’ in the sand, they could not use the idol, nor could they re-hide it or destroy it.”

“They do have some fun strategic options that could still help them in the game,” notes Probst. “For instance, they could place the idol back where they found it and use their spy techniques to see who returns to that spot. Now they know who has an idol. Or, they could waltz into camp and say ‘Look what I found?’ Sooner or later the rightful owner would have to claim it and now it’s out in the open, thus reducing its impact.

Or, you could choose to go to individual players and secretly ask them if the idol belongs to them. If you strike gold, you now only have valuable information, and you might have a new alliance.”

[peachmangosteen]

I really hope someone find Lauren's idol. That could be fun and interesting.

[Bryce Lynch]

12 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really hope someone find Lauren's idol. That could be fun and interesting.

I doubt that will happen.  It is probably better hidden than most idols have been.  I doubt anyone is going to start randomly digging in the sand, in a place that isn't near tree mail, the water supply, an unusual looking tree, or some other place people would expect to find an idol.   

[ProfCrash]

42 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I really hope someone find Lauren's idol. That could be fun and interesting.

They won't show it unless someone makes a big deal of having found it. Production will step in and rebury the idol. End of story.

[SVNBob]

On 3/4/2019 at 1:55 AM, SVNBob said:

Peachy was asked about this scenario in interviews earlier.  He said that any idols belonging to people on EoE would remain valid if they returned to the main game.

Quoting myself here, because this has somewhat come into question. Partially because I can't find any of the interviews where Peachy said the HIIs would regain power if the owner retruned to the game.  But mainly because of a very clear shot of the note that came with Aubry's idol.

Spoiler tagging it for mobile users or others with limited bandwidth; link below spoiler goes to the same image.

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/VvKzRUy.jpg

Going strictly by that note, the standard rules apply and any unplayed idols belonging to people on EoE become Pocket Idols as usual.

But that interpretation does not include the fact that EoE is unknown to the cast until they get voted out or the merge, whichever happens first for a given player.  Any major alteration to the rules as printed on the note would give away the secret.  So the rules

Also, note the specific language used: "If you do not use the idol and are voted out, 

the idol no longer has any power in the game."    Remember that Peachy has altered his usual patter at TC.  He's not saying that "the decision is final and the person voted out will be asked to leave".  Because those on EoE are not technically voted out; they were voted to EoE.  This would imply that the idols still have power while on EoE.

However, I expect that when Peachy finally reveals the existence of EoE to the majority of the cast, he will clarify this issue.  He'll probably say something to the effect of "one of these people is returning to the game, and if they had a hidden idol beforehand, it can used again."

As a side note: I did find a reference to an old tweet from Peachy during South Pacific, regarding Ozzy's first trip to RI, and him passing off the idol beforehand, which was the closest analogue to this possibility.  That tweet said that if Ozzy had kept his idol and returned to the game, that idol still would have been valid.  If that was the rule in the past, then it would make sense that the same rule is still in effect.

There is an additional minor rule change/clarification to note, that we can ascribe to Ben in HvHvH.  "If you intend to play the idol for yourself or someone else, you must do so anytime before the votes are read."  The rules used to specifically say that the idol must be played after the votes are cast but before they are read.

[Nashville]

22 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Because those on EoE are not technically voted out; they were voted to EoE. 

Don’t know if I agree with this assessment, if only because the relocation to EoE is not an automatic part of the process.  Infinitesimal as the odds against it may be, a proactive selection on the part of the evicted is required to make the boat ride to EoE.  Absent that choice, the player was voted out and it is a standard eviction.

[KimberStormer]

Every idol this season found by a woman.  Boosting our stats out there, nice work ladies.

[peachmangosteen]

I hope it continues and a woman finds the merge idol, too. Maybe Victoria and she can come out from under the "How do you even look for an idol?" comment. That'd be a fun moment.

Edited March 21, 2019 by peachmangosteen

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, peachmangosteen said:

I hope it continues and a woman finds the merge idol, too. Maybe Victoria and she can come out from under the "How do you even look for an idol?" moment. That'd be a fun moment.

LOL I can almost see her walking by the not really buried box on EoE and ignoring it.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Every idol this season found by a woman.  Boosting our stats out there, nice work ladies.

I guess Angelina broke the curse, even if she needed 2 men to help her find it.  :)  Lauren and Aubry both worked hard to find theirs.  Wentworth's was practically a neon sign on the tree.  I'm glad she was more observant than The Warthog.   

I'm not a big Aubry fan, but it is sort of a shame there weren't 3 women carrying idols into the merge.   Maybe we could have finally had the elusive "all girls alliance" that if often talked about, but rarely seen.  

[SVNBob]

A question from Reddit that belongs here as well: How do you improve the Medallion of Power?  The gimmick from Nicaragua that conferred an advantage in challenges (ostensibly to help the older of the two tribes divided by age), but changed tribes every time it was used?  (And was only used twice in four ICs before being retired at the tribe swap.) 

Now, I hadn't thought of any of this until I saw that question, but I came up with something I'd like to get

My idea was basically have multiple Medallions, and combine them with other advantages we've already seen in order to give them actual power.  Those advantages being the Advantage Menu, the Idol Nullifier, and the standard HII.

Here's how I'd implement the idea.  During the Marooning, the Secret Advantage is a map to an "advantage" hidden at the first IC.  Whomever finds it is going to think it'll be an HII, but it will be this updated Medallion.  The included note will say two things: Peachy will detail some of the powers it has at the next challenge, but in an "emergency", it can be used as an HII by writing a name on the back and placing it in the voting urn a la the Nullifier.  (This rule might get rescinded after the first TC and then the Medallion can be used as a normal HII.)

At the next challenge, Peachy does bring up the Medallion, saying that there is one now hidden at each camp (in addition to the first probably still in someone's pocket.)  He then tells them about the "tribal powers" the Medallions have.  At RCs, a winning tribe can cash a Medallion in (as in, give it to Peachy) after the challenge to get a bonus reward; like 2 more pillows and blankets in the comfort reward, or another small fishing kit. At ICs, a Medallion can be cashed in before the challenge to give the tribe that does so an advantage, or give the other tribe a disadvantage.  But he won't mention the HII power.  That will only be included on the note with the Medallion.  And he'll also mention that Medallions might be re-hidden after use (spoiler: during the tribal phase, they absolutely will.  Maybe not as much post-merge.  And pre-merge Pocket Medallions will be replaced.)

At the merge feast, there will be a letter to the tribe detailing the new "individual powers" of the Medallions.  At RCs, someone with a Medallion can cash it in to participate in the reward even if they didn't win.  (Winner(s) still reap the reward, so it's not a full steal.)  And at ICs, the Medallion can still be used to gain an advantage, but can no longer be used to give disadvantages.

I've also thought about making it so that each found Medallion unlocks new powers for all of them.  Like once the second is found, each holder gets a secret note that says that the Medallion now also has the power of the Nullifier, and it can be cashed in anytime someone else uses a Medallion, including as the HII, to Nullify it.  And another note once the third Medallion is found that adds the power of the Nullifier Nullifier.  So playing the third will cancel the second, and the power of the first (whatever it was) will go through.   The fourth unlocks Super Idol power, if two Medallions are combined.  And these additional powers remain unlocked, no matter how many Medallions are still in play.

Doing all this does two things.  First, it gives the Medallions actual Power in and throughout the entire game.  Which leads to the second and possibly the theme of the season: Choices.  How do you choose to wield this power?  Openly or in secret?  To the benefit of all, or just for yourself?  Do you work with other people with power, or against them?

So, that's what I came up with.  Any other thoughts on the Medallion of Power?

[ProfCrash]

My thoughts on the Medallion of Power? Never use it again.

Personally, I would like to see all of the advantages go away and hidden idols be reduced to one per beach with no rehides.

[Eolivet]

I was thinking about the Edge of Extinction, and while I don't love it at all, I could tolerate it with a few tweaks. Namely, that it ended at the merge.

I think I could be marginally okay with the Edge of Extinction in the early days, when who goes home is based on tribal performance and this season, Joe vs No Joe. In the early days of Survivor, when the pickings are slimmer for who gets sent home, it makes a little more sense.

But after the merge, I have a huge problem with it. After the merge, you solidify your alliances, you have to up your social game, you can't rely on Joe to win challenges for you. One person is immune, not six or seven. I can equate "surviving on the Edge of Extinction" to "surviving in tribal rounds of the game," but not surviving post-merge, which is so much more complicated.

I suppose that makes it similar to the Outcast twist, with the difference that we've seen what the Edge of Extinction is (versus being assured the Outcasts were totally not receiving any better treatment off-screen).

But if they absolutely insist on keeping Edge of Extinction past the merge, there have to be surprise eliminations. I don't think you should be able to check your social game and your competitive game at the door, and only live on a beach for two weeks and have that be comparable to a post-merge game. Actions have to have some consequences.

Of course, I'd like Edge of Extinction to go the way of Ghost Island and never come back. But if we absolutely must have it, these are ways to make it marginally less awful, to me.

[Eolivet]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before, but: has the nature of the fire-making at final 4 made it next to impossible for a woman to win Survivor?

While it's an incredibly small sample (n of 4), the "fire-making at final 4" has resulted in four male winners in a row, and 3 of 4 who've made fire have won the show (i.e., it's almost a literal king-maker). Not to mention the ooh and ahh spectacle of it is an advantage for a man, even if he's sitting next to a woman in final tribal council. Women have been a part of every single final 3 starting at season 35, yet every single fire-making at final 4 has been won by a man, even if the man didn't ultimately win the game (in one instance).

Since the final 4 fire-making, in all 4 final tribal councils, women have received a grand total of ... 2 votes? 3 votes? Whatever Chrissy received, since Laurel, Angelina and Julie received a grand total of 0 votes. (pre-fire making, Hannah and Tasha both received 0 votes, but the seasons afterwards had a woman winner).

I was thinking about this as we near the end of the 30s, and if a man wins this season, Survivor -- which used to have about a 60/40 male/female winner ratio will be down to 80/20, which is Big Brother levels. But in the earlier part of the 30s, it was pretty back-and-forth. Pre-fire at final 4, it was 3 men, 2 women. Since the fire-making: 4 men and 0 women.

I didn't care about these things before, but it's starting to be an uncomfortable pattern, especially seeing rumblings in the episode thread of a man this season with a supposed "winner's edit." I wonder if someone pointed this out to Jeff Probst -- that for all his praise of Angelina as a role model for his daughter, that she actually received no votes. That in the final 4 fire-making era, we're going to keep seeing Angelinas and Laurels and Julies -- women who sit there at the behest of a man who chooses them as a goat, so he can beat her. And yeah, that happened before the fire-making, but it didn't feel quite so icky because final 4 was a vote that sent someone home, not a "choose your own goat. and shocker! it's a woman!"

Survivor is losing to the Masked Singer in ratings, and in order to stay relevant, they really need not to become American Idol (i.e. only young, mostly white men can win). And I sort of feel after a few seasons of data that the final 4 fire-making has been the turning point. Like we're supposed to ooh and ahh over the spectacle, and pay no attention to the fact that the spectacle has only been benefiting a specific type of player.

[peachmangosteen]

Oh yea, it was clear from the beginning that they introduced the twist because Probst and co. were mad that the manly men they lose it over weren't making the finals. I think Probst basically said as much lol.

[SVNBob]

Not to dispute the facts or the somewhat disturbing trend; I would like to point out that this current season has started with a focus on women making fire. 

The first episode had Janet starting fire without flint for her tribe, and there was Elizabeth's lesson on IotI, which was about making fire under challenge conditions.  And the second episode showed Chelsea was the one that first made fire for her tribe.

Those moments, plus the women's alliance on the orange tribe, could all be setting up an F4 firemaking challenge that involves at least one woman, if not two.

[Eolivet]

Refresh my memory: is this the same half-idol that felled Scot/Jason in Kaoh Rong when Tai wouldn't give up the second part? It looked like it, but it didn't seem clear how it needed to be played this time. Presumably you'd have to play it at the same time, and on the same person?

Interesting they brought that idol back into play in this season, which basically means you cannot keep an idol completely secret. Meaning these players have to trust at least one person. Easier said than done.

[RescueMom]

I expect there will be a tribe swap soon (not spoiled, they just usually swap pretty early these days.) A swap could really mess with the split idols if the pair holding the halves gets split up. 

Also, if one of the holders gets voted out, that would make the other half worthless since neither half has any power by itself, yes? 

If they have to have a zillion idols in the game at all time, I am glad they have at least started diluting their powers in different ways. 

[ProfCrash]

8 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Refresh my memory: is this the same half-idol that felled Scot/Jason in Kaoh Rong when Tai wouldn't give up the second part? It looked like it, but it didn't seem clear how it needed to be played this time. Presumably you'd have to play it at the same time, and on the same person?

Interesting they brought that idol back into play in this season, which basically means you cannot keep an idol completely secret. Meaning these players have to trust at least one person. Easier said than done.

They had one in another season, I want to say it was last season or the stupid one with the Island of mistakes. It didn't work then either.

[SVNBob]

On 2/19/2020 at 9:55 PM, Eolivet said:

Refresh my memory: is this the same half-idol that felled Scot/Jason in Kaoh Rong when Tai wouldn't give up the second part?

Not exactly.  This is more like the shell idol Lauren got in HvHvH (the one she shared with Dr. Mike and he burned).  It needed both the shell and the leather thong (lanyard) to be a complete idol.  The KR idols were complete in and of themselves, but 2 combined formed an idol that could be played after the votes were read.

 

18 hours ago, RescueMom said:

I expect there will be a tribe swap soon (not spoiled, they just usually swap pretty early these days.) A swap could really mess with the split idols if the pair holding the halves gets split up. 

Also, if one of the holders gets voted out, that would make the other half worthless since neither half has any power by itself, yes? 

Unless both idols are identical, which makes the 4 halves identical.  Meaning that any of the 4 holders could pair up with any other holder to make one complete idol. 

 

 

[RescueMom]

5 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Unless both idols are identical, which makes the 4 halves identical.  Meaning that any of the 4 holders could pair up with any other holder to make one complete idol. 

I can't remember where, but I saw a screen shot where The poster said it looked like there was a bit of tribe color on the split idols. I couldn't see the whole thing clearly so I'm not 100% confident, but I think they may each be unique.

Unrelated: I have been thinking about the Safety without Power advantage. I think it will really only be useful In pretty specific situations. One would be when you really are desperate: if you are in a situation like Karishma last year when she knew she was in trouble and she had no allies she's be leaving in the lurch by using it, or if you knew everyone else in your minority alliance is safe as well through other immunities, or you flat-out know you are one of two/three that are going home and you don't have the numbers to make a move.

Another would be at the final 5 vote if you are in a position where you aren't part of a majority trying to get out a specific person, so you only care about making it to the fire-making challenge.  

[Eolivet]

1 hour ago, RescueMom said:

I have been thinking about the Safety without Power advantage. I think it will really only be useful In pretty specific situations. One would be when you really are desperate: if you are in a situation like Karishma last year when she knew she was in trouble and she had no allies she's be leaving in the lurch by using it, or if you knew everyone else in your minority alliance is safe as well through other immunities, or you flat-out know you are one of two/three that are going home and you don't have the numbers to make a move.

Australian Survivor had this advantage at least last year, where it was used as basically a "block a vote." If I recall correctly, they had someone leave who was going to be a number against them/their plan. But I think how they phrased it was (paraphrased) "You can cause any person to leave the tribal council area. That person will not vote and will be immune from the vote." (all I remember is the person who had the advantage didn't use it to send themselves to safety).

Not sure if in this case you must play it for yourself. That changes its scope dramatically. If you yourself leave, you're depriving yourself of information. Then it becomes a "this is not an advantage" advantage (and you might as well give it away to someone else).

But if you can play it on someone else, that's more interesting. Then you can put plans into play and eliminate numbers against you.

[RescueMom]

2 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Australian Survivor had this advantage at least last year, where it was used as basically a "block a vote." If I recall correctly, they had someone leave who was going to be a number against them/their plan. But I think how they phrased it was (paraphrased) "You can cause any person to leave the tribal council area. That person will not vote and will be immune from the vote." (all I remember is the person who had the advantage didn't use it to send themselves to safety).

Not sure if in this case you must play it for yourself. That changes its scope dramatically. If you yourself leave, you're depriving yourself of information. Then it becomes a "this is not an advantage" advantage (and you might as well give it away to someone else).

But if you can play it on someone else, that's more interesting. Then you can put plans into play and eliminate numbers against you.

That would change it dramatically. I only watch US Survivor so haven't seen this advantage used before. Thanks for the info!

For some reason, I thought if someone used it they would leave right before the vote - so they wouldn't lose out on much information. But I have seen several references to losing out on TC info so I must be mistaken.

[simplyme]

3 hours ago, RescueMom said:

 

For some reason, I thought if someone used it they would leave right before the vote - so they wouldn't lose out on much information. But I have seen several references to losing out on TC info so I must be mistaken.

That's because when Jeremy read it, it specified that he would leave before the vote. I don't know why anyone would use it much before Jeff called for an actual vote, so no, they shouldn't miss much of TC. I also don't recall anything about being able to play it on another player. That's why it's called Safety Without Power instead of something else.

The Aussie version sounds a bit different and I don't think people should be assuming they are the same.

[LadyChatts]

So where are we at with advantages and idols this season so far?  Kim has an idol, Michele has the 50/50 coin for immunity (expires at final 7), and Jeremy has his advantage to leave TC before the vote and be immune as a result (I can't remember when that expires).  That it?  

[TVFan1]

5 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

So where are we at with advantages and idols this season so far?  Kim has an idol, Michele has the 50/50 coin for immunity (expires at final 7), and Jeremy has his advantage to leave TC before the vote and be immune as a result (I can't remember when that expires).  That it?  

Sarah has a steal a vote advantage, and Sophie has an idol. That's all I can think of besides what you already said.

[fishcakes]

I'm not sure who has what, but @SVNBob lists all of the advantages in the Tribe Tracker thread. He usually updates it a day or so after the episode.

[SVNBob]

3 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I'm not sure who has what, but @SVNBob lists all of the advantages in the Tribe Tracker thread. He usually updates it a day or so after the episode.

Thanks for the plug. 

I just updated that thread.  In addition to the 5 "advantages" in the main game that @LadyChatts and @TVFan1 listed, there are 3 on the Edge. 

Rob and Natalie still have the idols they bought before the Return Challenge.  While currently powerless, if either of them returns to the game (or passes off said idol to whomever does), those idols will have full power.

And Parvati did buy some peanut butter after selling the coin to Michele.  I'm counting that as an advantage, same as I did when Tyson bought his jar.

[LadyChatts]

18 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I'm not sure who has what, but @SVNBob lists all of the advantages in the Tribe Tracker thread. He usually updates it a day or so after the episode.

Thank you!  I couldn't find that thread earlier so I thought I was going crazy lol

I had forgotten about Sophie's idol and Sarah's advantage.  I thought only having 3 idols/advantages in the game seemed low.  So Kim has an idol that only Sophie knows about, Sarah knows about Sophie's idol, but does anyone know about the advantages in the game that Jeremy/Michele/Sarah have?  I'm surprised no one has found the merge idol yet.  I also wondered if there was an advantage this past week in the sit out bench where Denise was for the RC.  

[SVNBob]

8 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

does anyone know about the advantages in the game that Jeremy/Michele/Sarah have?

Natalie/Parvati and Danni (and the rest of the pre-Sandra Edgers to some degree)/Natalie; respectively. 

In other words, the people that sold them those advantages, and anyone those people told, know.  No one in the main game knows though.

[SVNBob]

Resurrecting this thread so we can collate our collective understanding of the new "advantage", the Shot in the Dark.

The rules of the SitD seem to be as follows.

1. At TC, when a player is in the voting booth, they can elect to use their SitD if they think they're in trouble and have no other means of protection (no HII or other immunity-granting advantage). 
2. Once in the booth, a player can use their SitD or vote; they cannot do both.
3. If they elect to use their SitD, they signify so by dropping their die into the die box on the voting table.  After that, they draw 1 of 6 parchments from a bag also on the voting table.  One parchment says "SAFE" and grants immunity at that TC.  The other 5 do not.
4. After tallying the votes, Peachy will reveal if an SitD was used.  How events shake down after that are as yet unknown.  However, we can assume that if anyone that draws "SAFE", it will be treated as if they played an HII (all the votes are read, but the ones for the "SAFE" player will not count.)

 

As I understand it, the dice that Peachy passed out when he told the cast about the SitD are merely tokens; symbols to represent that a player can still use their SitD chance.  They do not literally "roll the dice" when taking the Shot in the Dark.  They also appear to be like HIIs in that you have to have your die on your person in order to use it.

And as far as we know, players only have the one SitD to use.  However, I would not be surprised if additional Shots could be won or earned throughout the season.

 

[Hera]

I wonder what the rule is about using a shot in the dark if you've already sacrificed your vote. The die tokens make it seem like you can use it as long as you have your die. But if you're effectively sacrificing your vote in order to use the SitD, then logically someone whose vote has already been sacrificed shouldn't be permitted to use it. So if JD, Xander, and Danny had all chosen to risk their votes and therefore lost their ability to vote at their first tribal council, then would they have been allowed to use their SitD because they still had their tokens, or would they have been stopped from doing so because they had already sacrificed their votes for something else? The latter seems more reasonable to me, but I wouldn't surprised if the show went with the former in the name of increasing the chances that players who play a high risk/high reward style stick around.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Hera
Fixing a typo

[SVNBob]

Speaking of Xander and JD, this brings up another interesting point.  They each have an Extra Vote.  So how does that mesh with the SitD? 

It appears that using the SitD costs the opportunity to vote at the TC you take your Shot.  Meaning that you lose all ability to vote at that TC.  No Extra Votes, no voting in a tie-breaker, nothing.  To use a term from the D&D community, that is likely the RAI, Rules As Intended, by TPTB.

But one could interpret the RAW, Rules As Written, for the SitD as that it costs "a (singular) vote" to take the Shot.  Which could hypothetically mean that either of them (odds on JD) could spend their die then also use their Extra Vote at the same TC.  And that could either happen right then at the booth, or when Peachy later opens the window for anyone to use an advantage.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by SVNBob

[jsm1125]

Are you allowed to transfer or play your SITD for another player??

[kassandra8286]

A lot of good questions have been raised about the SITD. I really hope TPTB have thought it all through, lol. 

[SVNBob]

From another thread:

11 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

do we know if the Shot In The Dark is reset after someone uses it?  Since two people have gotten "not safe", are the next person's odds now 1 in 4, or still 1 in 6? 

Technically, we don't know.  The sample size is too small; only 3 uses total, and all 3 have come up Not Safe, which is the most likely result.

I believe the bag of scrolls is reset at every TC, meaning that both Zach and Marya had 1 in 6 chances.  (Naturally, it was reset between seasons.  Plus when Sydney used her Shot, they'd doubled the number of scrolls in the bag because of the Merge, and she had a 2 in 12 chance of drawing Safe.  Which was still equal to 1 in 6, so the odds hadn't actually changed.)

But I thought I had read an interview last season that the bag was not reset during a TC.  Meaning that if multiple people used their Shot at a given TC, the odds were not going to be a consistent 1 in 6 and would change depending on the voting order.  But in looking around for that interview, I cannot find it.  So that might be wrong and the bag is reset per person per TC.

The only way we will know with absolute certainty is if 2 or more people ever use their Shot at the same TC, and at least 2 come up Safe (3 minimum post-Merge, because of the doubling).

 

And looking back at my first post about the SITD from last season, the only thing I got wrong was about Peachy announcing someone took their Shot.  He's treating it like every other Advantage.

Edited March 19, 2022 by SVNBob